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Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy?
nissin writes "I'm ready to buy my first vehicle, and would like to hear your experiences with either hybrid or electric vehicles. Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? Do they perform well in the city? How about on long road trips? I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."
we do not buy ecological vehicles!
Hybrid vehicles seem to be getting a lot better. Initially, they looked boxy and shitty. But now, there are a lot more options.. For example, the hybrid Honda Civic seems to be pretty good.
A friend in another city has a hybrid. According to him the pickup is slow but the fuel economy is great. Pure electric would be super if you didn't have to make long trips and always had an electrical outlet to charge when parked.
Pet Peeve #843287: SUV drivers that whine about the price of gas. You bought that overpriced penis extension, learn to live with the consequences.
Trolling is a art,
Personally, I am going to give the technology a few years to mature. I remember reading recently about GM dropping a line of Hybrid cars because the EPA in California banned a particular type of appliance required for re-charging the vehicle. I think it will soon take hold, but I am giving it a bit of time for many of these details to be sorted out.
Wait a few more years, you will be grateful. The advantages of having new technology early are many, but so are the drawbacks. I understand that this is not a "new" technology in the strictest sense, but it is not a mature one. I am waiting, and I would advise you to do so also.
Considering a hybrid is something like $40,000 canadian, and I just bought a 1987 Honda Civic for $900 that gets 40+mpg and runs perfect, I would spend my money elsewhere. But I'm cheap.
As the proud owner of a Toyota Prius, I can definitely recommend one. I'm not too hot on the looks, but the mileage rocks, and it's been very reliable so far. And it isn't as pokey as you may expect a hybrid to be. You may also want to look at the Honda Insight (If it is still being made).
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
Fun with Anagarams! LADS HOST, SHALT DOS. HAS DOLTS. AD SLOTHS, HATS SOLD. ASS HO, LTD.
If you live in Cali, I believe you can get a Compressed Natural Gas vehicle (most also have normal gasoline tanks, too). But this is regional... here in Indiana, there are no CNG filling stations that I've ever seen.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
the NEW Prius looks good - much better than the old one - performs pretty much like a normal car, yet gets better mileage than the old Prius. Or so they say - I haven't tried one.
---
I type this every time.
2 of my friends have hybrids (one the Insight and the other the Prius), and they both like them. They are great on the city streets, very quiet and lots of pickup from a standing start thanks to the electric motors. For longer trips, you'll love the quiet, the fuel economy, and the insane distances you can go without needing to fill up your tank. The downside tends to be that they have poor pickup at freeway speeds.
The other big issue is the feel of the ride. Some people love it, others don't. They have low-friction tires and stiff suspensions (to minimize the amount of energy loss). This tends to make the car ride more like a sporty car (you feel every bump) than a luxury car (soft suspension smooths out the bumps). Some people love that, others hate it.
Overall, I'd suggest taking it out for a spin, and see whether you like it. They are practical cars though.
sigs are a waste of space
I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."
There's something I've heard about -- it's called a "bicycle".
Electric vehicles can't go very far or very fast, and when you drive one people will think you're gay.(*)
(*)Sponsored by the gasoline industry of America.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Hybrids get great mileage, and they work. What's not to like? Buy a Prius, or a hybrid Civic. Or, wait a couple years, because Toyota is supposedly going to sell everything in a hybrid model by 2005.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
To put it simple - hybrids are still considered to be a "cool" items and as such carry quite a premium. So if you have extra money and not a speed freak (hybrids are generally underpowered in comparison with normal vehicles) - go ahead.
IMO time for them is still about 5 years away.
On the other hand, self-parking Prius is really nice.
Electrics or hybrids are nice...but just wreck one...or have one break for that matter. Nobody but the dealer will touch them because nobody but the dealer has the training and equipment to do it. Insurance companies are extremely wary of them too...I toured an insurance company and they were busy smashing them into things and seeing the effects if the batteries got shorted or spewed acid all over everyone...certainly not worse than having flaming gasoline sprayed on you, but there was a real danger of electrocution.
Well Eco- Friendly cars are out but they may not be a practial option unless you are filthy rich. Since the cars are not produced in volume maintaining them would really be a pain in the butt. For now stick with hondas or toyotas or any other eco-friendly conventional car. Probably in 10 years or so more eco-friendly cars with alternate fuels would arrive. For now stick with v6.
Buy a TDI and make biodiesel. Or just use normal diesel. Fairly high mileage (50mpg)
If you're looking to buy a first new car, have a slim budget, and need an all-around good transportation appliance that is a small car, lasts a long time without giving hardly any trouble, gets great fuel economy, has enough room for two comfortably, and four when you need it, and is decently stylish and fun to drive then get a Honda Civic.
I've never had one myself, I'm a pickup truck driving man myself, but I have plenty of friends who've bought various different brands and models of small economy cars over the years and those who bought the Civics are the absolute happiest of the bunch.
I have a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and I love it. Average about 45 mpg. Use it to commute on the DC beltway - plenty of pickup for merging and passing. Have taken 2 4-6 hour trips with the car, and it's just fine - like driving a regular Civic. Really, the only noticeable difference between the Hybrid an the regular Civic is that you can feel the car nose forward just a bit as you press down on the brake pedal and the generator that is driven by the brakes kicks in. You should also note that you can take $2000 off your adjusted gross income on your 2003 taxes, and many states provide addtional incentives. Excise tax was waved in Maryland ($2000), and you can drive in the HOV lanes in Virginia without a second passenger. Bottom line - it's a great car, and a good deal to boot.
...you insensitive clod!
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
If you look at the fuel efficiency info on the EPA site, you'll notice that the TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection) Volkswagons can get around 50MPG. They start easy in the winter, unlike the older diesels. Check out www.tdiclub.com. I just got a 2000 TDI Beetle and it's awesome. Also, there are a few modifications that give you loads of extra power from the engine. Some will even increase efficiency and give you more power. These are great cars, go check em out.
Surely hybrid vehicles are not so bad that they would leave you trying to hitch a ride?
The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
Just eat a burrito or two and wait...compressed natural gas.
If you like getting 55 MPG, that is. :)
Alternative fuels are necessary for national security, in my opinion.
1) The US defeated Japan and Germany chiefly by starving them of oil. The Japanese and Germans had jet fighter planes sitting on the tarmac, ready to pulverize the best we had in the air, but they had no oil to fly them. One day the same thing could happen to America.
2) The environmental impact of fossil fuels, of course, is horrible.
3) With alternative fuels, we wouldn't need to be in the Middle East at all.
Alternative, renewable fuel resources will take us a long way towards national and personal independence.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Bicycling is a great alternative to driving if you're just commuting. It gets you out in the sun (chicks dig tans), works on the spare tire around your gut, and helps you avoid life-threatening diseases such as diabetes and high-blood pressure. Used by millions of Chinese and in other Asian countries, the basic design is time-tested, and if you're not into racing and other specialized forms of cycling, very inexpensive. No paying through the nose for gas at the pump, either!
:( )
A pair of Nike's also goes a long way.
But, to answer your question:
Hybrid/Electrics still have some ways to go, it really depends upon your needs. Is it just you you need to haul around? Honda Insight (2 seater) might be something to look into. If you have friends or family, the Toyota Prius (or is it the Echo? I can't remember) is a 4 door sedan that might call to you. If you need to haul things often (not like furniture, but stuff like guitar amps and what not), I'd recommend looking at the Volkswagon TDI Jetta Wagons. Modern Diesels are very fuel-efficient and if you're into BioDiesel, can be very cheap, too.
My vote goes for the Wagon because I dig diesel and station wagons. (I actually own a Mazda Protege5 because it was the only decent "wagon" on the market when I had to buy a car.. if I had known that the TDI was going to appear about 6 months later I probably would've tried to wait it out.. While I like the Mazda, it only gets 25 mpg..
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Camel
Nuff said.
(Note: Don't go dromedary. Lazy as can be. Uncomfortable. Spend a little extra for the second hump. It's worth it.)
I have a Honda Civic Hybrid. We have two other Civics and I think the Hybrid has better pickup and I currently get 54 mpg (winter causes it to drop a little). I think they are great technilogically and save alot in gas costs since my commute is 40 miles one way. Your milage may vary...:)
Hybrid vehicles are great, but a more easily adoptable alternative is E85 cars. These run on 85% ethanol, and I am sure you guys all know the benefits of ethanol. The infrastucture for distribution already exists everywhere, and it would take almost no modification of current manufacturing techniques to produce E85 compatible cars. they already exist, but are not common. Yet.
What if you made a full internal combustion car with a lightweight aluminum chasis, a variable speed transmission, low resistance tires and sleek aerodynamics?
The hybrids are pretty much the same except they suffer heavy batteries, gain regenerative braking and have smaller lighter IC engines.
I've heard that diesel vehicles are pretty fuel efficient (well maybe not the 18 wheelers).
The options availabe to you depend greatly where you live. For example in Europe there are bio diesel options, I have seen VW's new car that can get 300+ miles to a gallon. In the states there are a few nice alternatives. The nice thing about hybrid cars is the fact you do not have to rely on a newer type of fuel. I have ridden in a few electric cars and they are not very good yet. Also almost all the manufacturers have stopped producing them.
So I would suggest you find out what your options are then decide what you want to do. The new ones are getting a lot more stylish though
(If money is one of the driving factors it requires a lot of miles to balance due to the high price of the car.)
Well, its gas driven, but like I mentioned, its a hell of a lot more fun then the electrics available. I just got a 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX, but if I was to purchace a car now (and not 3 months ago), I would get the 2004 Subaru Impreza STI.
Its not gonna cost you much more then any electric/hybred would (i.e. $30,000 range), and it has one monster of a powerful engine. Its the most powerful 4 cylinder engine available! Talk about acceleration! I know it isn't the most environmental friendly, but its friendlier then the SUV's.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
I own a 2002 Prius, and have pre-ordered a 2004 (new and improved). In short, I love my car. It's got plenty of power for your daily commute, and with my 20-25 miles per day driving, I can easily go two weeks or more between fillups. I've also made the trip from Southern California to Phoenix AZ on 6-7 gallons. It's also beneficial to know that I'm not polluting nearly as much as the big SUV's I share the road with, since the current model is SULEV rated, and the new one also carries the AT-PZEV rating for partial zero emissions.
/
The current model doesn't carry a whole lot, and you can't tow with either generation, but for most of us, that's not a regular issue. The new version is a hatchback with fold-downs eats, so it solves the "carrying stuff" issue.
There's plenty of Yahoo! Groups and other forums on electric or hybrid cars. A couple I personally hang out on and post alot of good geek info:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
See you there!
$ man woman *
-bash:
Buy a motorcycle. Excellent on gas, better than 90% of cars out there. You get to experience the road in a way cars cannot show you. You're not trapped in a box, observing the world through glass. On a bike, you're part of the road, the scenery, nature.
If you buy a jap cruiser, you can spend as little as $5,000, up to $30,000+ for high-end bikes or Harleys. I own and highly recommend the Suzuki VL800 Volusia. A phat 800cc cruiser for around $6500.
I fill my tank for $7 (~3.8 gallons) and go 175 miles.
# Erik
Is the way to go - CVT is almost exclusively offered by Honda, and is something of a hybrid between a manual transmission and a automatic and is belt driven - supposively reducing a lot of strain on the engine and freeing up gas mileage. I have a manual transmission on my '01 Civic. If you know how to drive stick, and know the ins and outs of how to get the most of it, you can get upwards of 45mpg highway a lot of the time. A friend of mine has an '02, and she consistently gets 40mpg living in Boston. /me walks back into the Honda brothel, ready to whore himself out again.
You could just get a motorcycle or a scooter. Easier to park, decent fuel economy, cheaper than a car.
I'd personally take my bike over any scooter, but scooters have more storage capacity in a smaller package (I've heard good things about the new Suzuki burgman 650 - good power and lots of storage space).
I bought one of the first Toyota Priuses three years ago, and have 38K on mine. It's a wonderful, easy to drive, no sacrifices, all around regular car. I get about 44 mpg, and I'm a leadfoot, not a creeper. The new second-generation Prius coming out next month is superior in every way, I'm sure you'll love it. (Oregon plate LOW CO2)
My concern is with the batteries. I think they give 8 years guarantee but if I have to spend 10000 dollars on a new battery, I'm not happy. Yes, you could argue that you won't keep that car for that long but the same concern can decrease the resale value.
Being more maneuverable and closer to the ground, compact cars are generally safer for people inside _and_ outside the car.
People who believe that SPUTES are safer really need to get a grip on reality.
Forget diamonds, copyright is forever.
a look a the upcoming Ford Escape Hybrid. It's gonna be the first Hybrid SUV (albeit a mini-SUV)
I test drove a Prius during their first year and I didn't like one thing: the brakes try and capture that extra kinetic energy, but the result was very jumpy breaking.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
I have a friend that really likes his. He got one of the new Hondas.
I haven't owned a car for years - the bike is the friend. However, for money and environmental reasons, my next car will definitely be a hybrid. My girlfriend's sister and another friend are looking into the Honda and Toyota models.
I suspect, we'll possibly see something similar to the 80's Japanese car explosion - maybe not on the same scale - since they are, once again, ahead and making better cars.
I own one and strongly recommend the VW TDI diesel vehicles. They include the Golf, Jetta, Jetta wagon, and VW New Beetle. The fuel economy is very good (49mpg highway). They don't have the complexity, weight, and expense of banks of batteries, large electric motors, and complicated drivetrains that typify hybrids. They are quiet, comfortable, and more stylish than most of the hybrids.
The radio is a standard DIN unit, so aftermarket radios are a snap to install. The handling is superb (after installation of the VW/Eibach "Sport Suspension" springs. The seats are very supportive and adjustable. The interior materials are first-rate.
In addition, because diesel fuel is closer to oil than gasoline, it tends to lubricate the cylinder walls rather than scouring them like gasoline does. Thus, the engines tend to have a very long life.
I have no regrets about the purchase and would happily buy the exact same car again -- though maybe with the center armrest.
I considered hybrid back in the summer of 2002. I went shopping for a Honda Civic. For $5,000 more I could have gotten the hybrid version. I did a math projection for 5 years, and I simply did not save $5,000 in gas. (It's worth noting that I only drive 10 miles a day.) My memory's fuzzy on the details of my math, but I remember thinking gas prices would have to at least double in order to break even. There are probably other ways to justify that cost, but that's what stood out for me and why I didn't go hybrid.
Also, here in Oregon, there were complaints that with higher fuel efficiency, there is fewer tax dollars coming from gas to repair roads with. So they cranked up the registration fees of hybrids. That's another cost I would have to have endured.
You should take some time to do some math. How much does gas cost now? How much is it likely to go up for the period you plan on having your car?What's the cost difference in buying it today? Is there any real benefit?
Short of some disaster that destroys or cuts off our oil supply, I can't think of a reason not to go with a traditional gas guzzler.
"Derp de derp."
Ars Technica did a really good review of the Honda Insight. You might find it informative.
Didn't Alpha Romeo exit the North American market?I checked their webiste and I didn't see it listed. Hopefully they will come back along with peugeot and renault.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
I don't think I would ever buy a hybrid. At least from what I've seen they have no power, especially on hills, or on road trips. I regularly drive between Vegas and Salt Lake City, and lately I've seen more and more hybrids out on the road, I always pass these cars, it seems they can only maintain about 60-65mph on the highway, and on the hills they are always going about 40-50mph... I've never driven one so I don't know but every hybrid I see on the road is going under the speed limit.
I've had a Civic Hybrid for about 18 months now and it's been a great little car. I've put about 33,000 miles on it driving from Portland, OR to Helena, MT and back and also from Portland, OR to San Diego, CA several times. It's great to go about 450 miles - sometimes more - on a single tank of gas that costs about $22. It has no problems going over mountain passes and has plenty of power - unless your into racing or something. I get more mpg in the city then on the highway, but even in the worst case situations I've still gotten better then 41 or 42mpg. Usually getting around 45 to 47mpg.
I take it that you've ignored the reports on the rollover problems that plague SUVs.
Also, people seem to have forgotten basic physics, i.e. F=ma. So if more people bought smaller, lighter vehicles, they would less dangerous because there would be less chance of a weight difference between two colliding vehicles.
Of course, the best option is just not to drive and take transit, bike or walk instead.
And in an SUV, you're more likely to run over your own (or other people's) children, and more likely to cause a fatality in a car crash. So wouldn't it make sense to ban all big, heavy cars, since they are the ones actually killing people?
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
I have driven the Toyota Prius, and I like it. I plan to eventually pick up a used one in a few years as there is no way I plan to pay full sticker price for one.
One neat feature the Prius has is a "B" setting on its automatic transmission. This is like regular drive, except it is used for long downhill stretches where breaking is needed, the "B" setting forces constant regenerative braking so you store much of that descent energy.
As I understand it, Toyota plans on putting the dual in all their new vehicles after a certain point. I would certanly like on in my 1989 4Runner as the gas milage on that thing is awful.*
* FYI I am probably one of the few people you see on the road who can acutally justify owning a SUV as I need it for teaching Whitewater kayaking and Mountaneering.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
In regard to mileage, the CVT (continuous variable transmission, which basically makes your car into a non-shifting gocart-type vehicle) apparently gets better mileage in the city. So, if you spend a lot of time in stop-and-go traffic like many Americans, you may want to consider this somewhat spendy upgrade on your Civic or Insight (around 2K I think, definitely check that figure). Not sure if the Prius comes with that option or not. I know that a Saturn does, but I don't think it's a hybrid Saturn.
Of course, as mentioned above, it will probably be difficult to find somebody to work on that transmission, so you may wonder to consider trying to determine of this technology is just a temporary novelty, or here to stay.
"I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed." I would recomend walking, walking is practical, safe and fun for the whole family. Often times we forget about walking, but go ahead - give walking a chance - remember if we all walked maybe W. wouldn't have to fight so much god damn evil.
OK - Listen to this - Ford Escape Hybrid. Summer 2004, though.
unless you are militantly asexual get a car that you can laid in...
go get a used 'vette or something you pansy!
This
is geothermal. It's incredibly efficient but very slow.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
Obviously this is new technology, so you pay a premium for it, but it takes a few brave pioneers with the financial means to encourage the auto makers to continue perfecting the research in this field to ensure that it becomes popular and affordable for the masses. Hybrid vehicles perform more than adequately for every day driving with the advantage of not requiring a new fueling method for it's reduced environmental footprint.
I think you will be more than satisfied with a hybrid vehicle and you'll rest easy knowing you're doing more than most people to help the environment. Extreme environmentalists may argue that you should ride a bike instead, but that's not always feasible. This type of vehicle is a good choice during the transition period from fossil fuels to the eventual discovery of how to harness the secret power of gravity that currently leaks into other dimensions.. laws of thermodynamics be damned.
-hero.
Whatever model Alfa, buy the last model year of that car, the Italians will have ironed out all the bugs by then.
Ahhh, so that's where Microsoft got it from!
Good advice, though. I know someone who owned one - clearly not the last year of that model - and his mechanic saw more of the car than he did.
I've been driving a 2003 Toyota Prius since April. I'm very happy with it.
It has decent acceleration, about the same as other cars I've driven. It's comfortable, quite roomy for a small car, the back seat has decent leg room. I get 45-48 miles per gallon, closer to 45 during hot periods when I use the A/C a lot. I paid about $21K, including options (I didn't get the GPS system). There's also a tax credit for hybrid vehicles that you should look into.
The acceleration from a standing start is quite good because both engines (electric and gasoline) pull. The gasoline engine cuts off at stops, and in slow stop-and-go traffic only the electric motor runs, which is why the Prius gets better fuel efficiency in city driving than on the highway (the EPA rating is 52 city, 47 highway).
The 2004 Prius appears to be a substantial improvement: it's larger, but gets even better fuel efficiency.
I'm planning on purchasing a 2004 Toyota Prius this fall, when I move to California. The 2004 series has an AT-PZEV (advanced technology partial zero emissions vehicle) rating in California, and also qualifies me to park at meters for free and use the carpool lane with only me in it.
The 2004 model is very different from the 2003 model, and I would not have purchased the 2003 model (instead opting for a Honda Insight or Honda Civic GX). But the 2004 model has that much lower emissions rating and gets around 55mpg average, which is on par with the Honda Insight. The old Prius averaged 46mph according to EV World. It also has a larger size, moving it out of the compact and into the mid-size category. It also performs as well as a non-hybrid/electric car, according to people who have test drove it. It has a range of ~550 miles on a full tank.
The feature set is also very impressive--much better than that of the Insight or Civic GX, for the same $20k price range. I plan on getting bluetooth and the JBL six-speaker setup, at least. There's also the automatic parking feature, although I'm not sure if that will be available in the U.S.
The nice thing about the Civic GX is that it runs on natural gas. If you buy the Phill, partly financed by Honda, you can refuel in your own garage. But you don't have as much range as a Civic Hybrid. The Civic GX is also AT-PZEV, along with the Civic Hybrid. Unfortunately the automatic Insight is only SULEV, and the manual Insight, which gets better mileage, is only ULEV.
If you're only going to commute, then I might suggest the Twike. You'll have to custom order it, but if I only needed to commute then that's what I'd get. Unfortunately it is also $20k. The Tango is not yet available.
and then if you get into in accident with your hybrid SUV, the other guy is dead. yeah, great idea . . . having that on my concious is a great alternative.
Some states in the US let a driver in an electric hybrid car ride in the HOV lanes without having to meet the minimum passenger rule. Though some are moving away from this.
Also, some states give tax credits for buying them (I think).
Something to think about.
-- bearclaw
When I was a kid like you, cars didn't even exist! I had to walk 40 km uphill both ways in sandals at -50C with snow up to my shoulders!!
Stop whining and start walking!
...Taking an underpowered engine and put it on an oversized vehicle. You'd probably get there just as quickly if you walked, and it'd save a lot of the R&D cost.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
(insert witty and intelligent comment about Honda's 2-door hybrid vehicle...)
+1 (Insightful)
The pickup was decent (better than my old 82 Honda). I loved the gas engine shutting off while waiting at stoplights and drivethroughs (and slow parking lot stalking) - the only complaint I've heard about that is it's too quiet - kids tend to run out in front of you.
I averaged about 400 miles on 10 gallons.
It was just too expensive for me at the time - between payment and insurance it was about $550 / month. a gas guzzling Cherokee was about $300 / month and there's no way I burned $250 / month in gas. (besides the prius wouldn't go off road, well not in a way that would come back)
Real SUV's don't have cupholders
It's 5:42 A.M., do you know where your stack pointer is?
For the sheer joy of whizzing by in the HOV (high occupancy vehicle, for those of you are not familiar with such dealings) lane, and laughing at the gas-guzzling, smog producing, slow-moving vehicles on the right, I'd buy one in a heart beat -- it's just that my dinky little economical corolla is still chugging along.
Linux at home
It is a cool car. Literally! Though the engine runs hot, the exhast, clean air, comes out at -30 to 0C so the tail pipe is cold. They say it takes about $2 of electricity to fill a tank. Since electricity prices vary so much I don't know what to make of that. But they are saying it is cheap. A car costs about $10,000.
Even with tax credits, the crossover point for purchasing a hybrid electric car is years in the future. You can't really make an economic argument for buying one in the short term. If you think of it as a donation to the future development of cheaper car models down the road or a contribution to the environment, bully for you.
It seems to me that a hybrid electric or pure electric car is not the only choice. Honda's Civic HX coupe gets nearly as good mileage without the extra complication. It uses a lean burn engine and a more expensive catalyst to make up the increase in emissions. More energy efficient and low emission choices can be seen at http://www.greenercars.com or http://www.fueleconomy.gov.
I've driven the first generation Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid. Of the two, I preferred the Honda Civic's driving characteristics. It's also very nicely appointed, were the early Prius was fairly spartan in features. The new Prius has a larger motor which allows it to run on electric more and gets better mileage and is quicker.
If you're brave and/or have great weather, many smaller displacement motorcycles beat out cars for mileage. The need for rain gear and a certain amount of aggression makes these a tough choice for many.
Finally, if you can arrange to live in one of the few pedestrian/bicycle friendly towns you might be able to avoid the whole issue. Carsharing, www.flexcar.com, is available in many such cities.
Good luck with your decision!
Smart cars are taking europe by storm. They look too small to be comfortable, but actually the front seats have as much room as any car. Since they are as short as a normal car is wide, you can park nose-in instead of parallel parking. Great gas mileage, totally practical.
I would strongly suggest you take a look at a VW Jetta TDI. You can get a Jetta GL with a 1.9L 90hp 4-cylinder turbo diesel engine. You'll get 49 MPG highway. From the outside, it looks just like any other Jetta and you can only tell it has a Diesel engine from the TDI logo on the back. TDI's account for 3% of VW's sales in the US, you when you spot another TDI on the road is rare.
Diesel is also cheaper then regular gas. In NY, I see it for around $1.49, while 87 is about $1.94 right now.
...It's the only way to go:
http://www.thesmart.co.uk/
It looks cool. Chicks dig it. Guys dig it. It seats a 6'2" guy like me VERY comfortably. It's *amazingly* safe. And it's comeing to the US soon.
Get one.
... Where are the diesel-electric hybrids? Diesel is more efficient and with the fixed-RPM optimizations you can do it makes tons more sense to go with diesel. Also, biodiesel is much better than e85 when it comes to practicality and efficiency: biodiesel provides more power than it consumes in its production, while e85 is a net negative; Biodiesel is also less abrasive (though more of a solvent) and can be used in any modern diesel (with non-rubber fuel lines). The main thing holding this back is CARB asininity, though there's also concerns over sulfur (think the diesel equivalent of lead in gasoline, with all the emissions control and lubricity issues that implies) and the slowness of the low-sulfur diesel mandate.
Back to the story at hand, I'm thinking the 2004 prius is the one to wait for, if you can't hold out for the diesel electrics..
Now VW, DaimlerChrysler, where are the diesel electric hybrids?!??!
Right now, TDIs are:
:)
* fun to drive (german engineering)
* available from small Golf, sedan Jetta, wagon JettaWagen or trendy NewBug
* very safe (tons of safety features by default)
* lotsa torque (you drive torque, not horsepower)
* great mileage (EPA certifies 49 hwy, 42 city)
* you can run on BioDiesel (all or mixture of BioD + diesel)
* soon, Diesel in the US will be very clean (extra low sulphur diesel, like in Europe and Japan)
* diesel is proven technology
* 700 miles on one tank (some guys get 1000 miles)
* diesel fuel has waaay stabler price (no high huckups) than gas
* low maintenance (no sparkplugs, longer oil change intervals...)
* engines made by Audi engineers
* you can easily tinker the engine yourself
Check out http://www.tdiclub.com
I own a TDI and is just great.
Peace!
I'm not sure how the pickup is slow.. The beauty of electric DC motors is the constant acceleration. I'm sure the set points in the current profile that hackers will one day be able to get into the cars to change the performance curves.
For more geekier chemistry on electric/hybrids, here's Princton's chemistry website about hybrid electrics
Pros:
At a stop light, they are silent and no emissions. Silent start-up and DC-motor acceleration until the gas engine kicks on. Cool reuse of breaking energy into charging batteries instead of boring friction and heat in conventional cars. Can be used as a power plant, say, in power outages, or maybe one day, cars plugged into grid can run gas engine to produce electricty during peak times. And they sell pretty well
Cons:
From a cost point of view, they'll never beat out the super-efficient gas motors mini-cars. Battery life and cost of replacement (currently >= value of older hybrid vehicle). The impact on environment for spent toxic chemicals. Engine repairs. (I'm not sure if you've ever look in one, but they are jam-packed with every inch filled and basically unserviceable in terms of the ever fewer small jobs you can do yourself). Oh, and you *MUST* use specially licensed high-voltage service techs, which are few and far between currently. Will cause gas prices to rise -- see econ 101 supply vs. demand
The Civic Hybrid is very nice. It looks and feels like a normal car. In fact, you may have seen some driving around and didn't notice them. They look just like the normal Civic except for a small Hybrid tag on the right rear. Ars Technica has a good review of the Civic Hybrid.
Why I didn't buy a hybrid car (self-link):
mpg city/hwy
Echo Hatchback 42/54
Civic Hybrid 47/48
Prius Hybrid 45/52
Honda Insight 61/68
Mind you, the Echo Hatchback is only available in Canada right now.
but I settled on a car that ran on my own sense of self-satisfaction.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
Batteries tend to die in the cold. Where in NA do you live? In Canada we have electric cars. Or so some Yanks think. "Why is there a plug on the front of your car?"
I'd buy an electric car in a heartbeat, but I can't find any commerical electric models available anymore. GM still has the ev1 website which will direct you to a Saturn dealership, but the dealer says they haven't had any in years. The hybrids don't (currently) qualify for the carpool lanes here in california, but electrics and natural gas cars do.
a friend of mine had one of the first Honda Insights. his general evaluation- not the greatest vehicle for the city. the pickup was slow, which was the main complaint. the MPG in the city was great though. theoretically, due to the astronomical gas mileage, it would be great for road trips. the problem is the size- hybrid vehicles tend to be extremely small, making them less than optimal for serious roadtrips. however, here is the major plus- living in richmond, i don't have any local LAN spaces (that i know of). i have, however, driven to DC for said purposes before. a small hybrid can get you to a distant LAN with more than enough room for your box, a sleeping bag, and a g33k riding shotgun :-)
so, i'd say, if you have anywhere over a 45 minute commute, get one.
but then again, i ride a motorscooter most of the time.
or a minivan. there are other alternatives to an SUV for hauling many people
I wanted to buy one a year or so ago, and the list was about $20,000. My only real complaint about the one I drove (a 2000 model, I believe) was that the shocks didn't absorb much of the rough roads.
-jls
-jls
Techno-pagan
I bought a 2002 Prius in June, and I've been delighted with it. It has quite reasonable pickup, mileage as advertised, and is quiet, comfortable, and ergonomic. It really represents a terrific mix of econonomic and ecological responsibility IMO and I hope that Toyota (and Honda) HEV offerings continue to make inroads in the US and elsewhere. It's also quite mod-able. :) I've added a cool MP3 hack, an aftermarket GPS system that's integrated into the A/V system, and datalink interface that will allow me to log performance data and display it on a mobile PC also hooked to the integrated monitor. While the big 3 would have us wait for fuel cells "to be ready" isn't it a good idea to be trying to do something to lessen our impact on oil reserves and the environment now?
btw - For those looking to get into a 2001-2003 Prius cheaply, the time may be now. Quite a few people are selling their older models in anticipation of the completely revamped 2004 model.
There are plenty of standard cars with 4-wheel drive. Most Audis are, and so are Mitsubishi Lancers.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I'd recommend the Honda hybrid for 2003 and below, but I think the 2004+ Prius will be a better car. It's bigger than the 2002-2003 and (unlike all other current hybrids) the electric motor can drive the car, and does so normally. Additionally, the air conditioner compressor runs even without the gasoline engine.
In short, if I were buying a hybrid in the next couple months, I'd probably go with the Prius. If I were buying it right this moment, I'd go with the Civic.
It's almost in the dealerships now. It's an amazing vehicle. They've really improved on the old Prius and made it basically as good as a regular car now.
It's now as large as a regular Camry. It gets better mileage. The batteries are smaller and cheaper. It has more power. It's 2 seconds faster 0-60. It has options for navigation, keyless start and entry, AND BlueTooth! And all that, and the base price is still $19,995.
I'm a "give me all the power you can and screw gas mileage" guy and I want to get one of these just because it's got some cool tech in it.
My wife and I bought a Prius a tad over a year ago, and the more I drive it, the more I like it.
It handles really well, and has the tightest turning radius of any car I've ever owned. It has very good pickup, and doesn't have any problems at highway speeds. One of these days I'll have to see what the maximum speed is, but I've cruised at 80 with no problems at all.
The gas mileage is great, and will be even better in the winter when we don't have to use the AC. If you live in a place where you can get away with no AC in a car, then so much the better for you.
If you're looking for a recommendation, mine is "yes".
A good source of general information on fuel economy is the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide. This will provide some good information and cold, hard numbers. Of course, the only way to know you'll be really satisfied is by taking one for a test drive.
Buy a used car. A used car has already done most of its damage to the environment, just by being built. The paltry difference in mileage will not make up for the damage done by the creation of another car. Get something like... Oh, there's really nothing good in the US. The old Honda HF's were good. Some of the VW diesels used to get better than 40 mpg. The cost is much less, they are proven quantities, easier to find mechanics for, etc.
Sure, the hybrids may be chic in certain circles, but if you are honest about saving the environment, AND insist on owning a car (instead of mass and/or public transit and bicycles) you will do far more good by preventing another car from being made.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I was shopping for a car a year ago and considered a new hybrid civic. They are a couple k more expensive than the standard civic, but you get the hybrid.
My test drive was good. The car performed a lot like my old Tercel. The handling was good and the pick-up was acceptable. The best part, other than gas milage, was the readout which showed whether the batteries were being charged or drained.
In the end though, I bought a several year old Accord which was bigger, manual transmission and was much more fun to drive. It had reasonable gas mileage but not excellent. I'll buy when I have a bit more money, and they put the hybrid technology in a mid-sized sedan or luxury car. 60 mpg sure is impressive, but I'd love 35 in a car that's more comfortable and more fun to drive.
This has been a no-hassle car and on my regular commute I usually get between 42 and 55 mpg depending on the outside temperature. 18,500 miles now.
Dog is my co-pilot.
one thing to consider is the number of technicians/mechanics that are available to you. you would HAVE to go to toyota or honda for any major repairs. there aren't many that have this type of certification either. at each dealership they might have one guy who specializes in hybrids. after considering that, you look at your cost. i'm sure you know what dealerships charge, it's not a pleasant thought. have a nice weekend.
Read an article about them awhile back. They get about the same gas mileage as a hybrid, they look better than most hybrids, and overall you end up spending less on fuel with the TDIs than you do with hybrids (diesel is cheaper than gas). Supposedly they are also easily customized to get more horsepower without sacrificing mileage. VW basically perfected the diesel engine (so no reliability problems like in the 80s) and has had great success with their TDI line of vehicles.
Cheaper Cars (VW Jetta TDI), great gas milage 50+ MPG, can run normal Diesel, BioDiesel or just Straight Veggie Oil (SVO).
/. article a few years ago. It was cheap, its a great car and very enviromentally friendly!
I got a diesel car and converted it to SVO on because of a
Buy something that burns petroleum like an Iraqi oil fire! V8 is the way to go. I'm not ashamed to say my 1999 Dodge truck gets about 12 or 13 Miles per gallon. And thats just with the 5.2L engine. I had a 1999 Corvette for a month (company car) and it got a consistent 20 miles per gallon with a 5.7L engine. I did however ask GM's website if they had any plans for an 80/20 Ethanol/Gas engine for their Corvettes but they said they didn't have any plans at this time for it. Then I could burn fuel and not have to really worry about it.
a friend of ours has had a prius (got totalled) and now has a civic hybrid. i personally thought the civic felt more like a 'normal' car, but the prius was more fun to goof around with.
i think they like the civic better for day-to-day things.
Remember the Total Infomation Awareness project?
Don't you think they read Slashdot?
And what about your neighbours or the mail guy, have you already forgotten about the Terrorism Information and Prevention System?
Better be a good citizen and get that SUV.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
You shouldn't buy if cost if your concern. Even with the tax break and gas savings, it still doesn't make add up:
a) They cost more
b) The tax break is washed out because of higher registration fees in some areas (because they can't get their taxes from gas)
c) The batteries will have to be replaced eventually at a high cost, important if you're a drive-til-wheels-fall-off person.
If you're trying to save the environment, or be progressive, or pick up hippie college chicks, by all means, go for it.
It's gyromoscopimic. We're talking about the president!
They'll sell a very small number of these (as a percentage of total car sales) to the green fringe, but until the performance is greatly improved, it will be a tiny niche market at best.
Generally, bash is superior to python in those environments where python is not installed.
my wife and i purchased a honda civic hybrid. we considered the insight, but use it for extended road trips so the civic was more practical, though slighly worse on the milage. our experience has been great so far--including a 3500 mile road trip for about $125 in gas.
the milage is around 45/55 depending on conditions
size/drive is identical to the regular civic
it costs ~ u$19,000, but you get a u$2,000 tax deduction
oil changes are a little more ($40) as it uses 0/20 oil, but if you use the dealer, we get an extra 2 year warranty.
it is quiet it uses a CVT so it is an incredibly smooth drive
pleanty of power of detroit[read:insane] driving from an 84in3 4cyl.
all in all, i cannot recommend this car more.
!(^((ri)|(mp))aa$)
But has anyone seen them?
Hardly a month goes by without some tv show or magazine or newspaper, that hails new model xyz as the best or most economical or efficient yet, but I've yet to see a single one, let alone meet someone who would consider buying one.
And this applies to the UK, Greece and Italy.
Instead, roads are filled with "buckets", aka small cars for the "cost conscious urban energetic youth", that have the tendency to "grow" upwards, have weird shapes and model names, are hard to drive safely at a slightly higher speed on a bend.
Mind you, considering European minimalism and certain countries' strong presence of green parties in the poltical scene, it is more than likely that such cars are not an utter myth.
/. Where the truth
Pet Peeve #843287: SUV drivers that whine about the price of gas. You bought that overpriced penis extension, learn to live with the consequences.
It should be noted that many SUV drivers are women. In that case it becomes a clit extension. I know that concept seems alien to many. I direct your attention to the clitdik series of videos on this page for a demonstration of this phenomenonm.
GMD
watch this
Greascar
I was going to consider a big 4-door diesel pickup (similarly modified) but the cost is roughly 3X the VW! Eeek! Mr. Bank Account vetoed that right after my wife did.
My wife works for a chi-chi culinary school so I have a good source for grease, but any greasy spoon will do.
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
There are some pollution that most people do not take into account with Hybrid/Electrics.
1. Where does the power come from? Is it Coal, Oil, or Solar? with an Electric there is some shifting of the pollution from the car to the Power plant. It is not a one to one for sure but there is some.
Batteries are nasty things. They have lead or maybe Cadmium. Both are nasty heavy metals and get released into the enviroment when the batteries are disposed of. And the batteries do where out.
Electrics suck on long trips. They are usless.
Hybrid are ok for a long trip but you see the real savings in stop and go in town driving.
Right now the best green vehical around is a good Turbo Direct Injection Diesel or TDI burning Bio Diesel. There are several other cars that get good fuel economy and are very low emission vehicals.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I've got a 2003 Prius, and I wish I had waited a year. Still, the mileage and range kicks ass. The civic is pretty sweet to, though. Especially if you are into modding your car. All the aesthetic and suspension bits from the regular civics fit the hybrid (just no drivetrain parts). The prius has very little aftermarket support.
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
A Volkswagen TDI-based vehicle will get nearly the same milage as a hybrid, with about the same emmissions, with better torque and around-town drivability, and its a LOT cheaper.
That said, I watched a Toyota Prius running at the Rallye De Quebec last year (SCCA/FIA ProRally), and it was pretty damn quick until its batteries died and it had to run on the measely power the engine makes. On the short stage at the Hippodrome, it was pretty damn cool to see this beefed up rally car go screaming by... with just the sound of tires on gravel.
If I was you, the only way in tarnation that I'd buy one of them newfangled 'lectric cars wuz if I could put mag wheels, a rebel flag and a gun rack on it.
"No beer until you finish your tequila!" -Leela's Dad
Electric Vehicles are usually fairly enviormentally unfriendly. When you consider how the electricity is generated, and the amount of lead in current electric vehicles. Hybrids are better, but if you factor in the amount of resources utilized in it's creation, there is only one reasonable alternative. BUY A USED CAR. Reduce - Reuse - recycle. These are much more powerful words when it comes to resource utilization. The money saved on the vehicle (probably 10's of thousands of dollars) can be spent on EFF, OSS, GAS, or all the twinkies you can eat. And the amount of resources saved by not building *you* a new car, is much more "enviromentally" friendly the how much petrol you will be burning.
Here's my green car. I love it.
I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress -J Adams
Hybrids are great for city diving, but not as great for highway driving. The big part of a hybrid car is the regenerative breaking, which you don't get as much on the highway.
I do a lot of my driving on highways, and in the way I drive, I avoid breaking as much as I can, anticipating and using varying ammounts of gas to control my speed.
> partial zero emissions
:)
What the hell is a 'partial zero'?
Last year I drove a turbo diesel from London to Edinburgh on 1 tank of gas. I didn't refuel until well into my trip back to London. I estimate that the car got 55 MPG. The car was a Volkswagen Golf. It used a standard body frame and got very good pickup. The point is the Golf was using standard and trully tested technology in the engine and frame NOT exotic technologies like the Hybrids use. I live in the US and Diesel isn't as easy to find. However, I am seriously considering getting a Turbo Diesel for my next car. Another really cool thing... the Turbo Diesel engines can run off of Bio Diesel too!!!
However, "Car and Driver" did a review on the new Civic. While the milege was good and the body shape looked good, there were a couple of things they pointed out:
- You will end up spending more on the car (between the hybrid version and the regular Civic) than you will save on gas.
- The battery will last about 7-8 years, and (currently) there isn't a way to replace the battery.
So, be ready to spend a few $.
Mind you, I'm glad they now look like real cars as opposed to something that says, "With this car, I cannot possibly get a date!"
-----------
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
I take it that you've ignored the reports on the rollover problems that plague SUVs.
No, I've ignored the hysteria and idiotic reporting that has come with them.
According to actual science, you're more likely to die if you get into an accident in a small, fuel-efficient car.
Deaths per million drivers:
Ford Expedition: 39
Chevy Suburban: 53
Honda Civic Coupe: 68
Hyundai Accent coupe: 177
Toyota Corolla: 86
Nissan Sentra: 100
Less than 3% of crashes involve rollovers. I'm more worried about the other 97%.
I contemplated replacing my '92 Ford Bronco V8 (11 mpg) with a gas/electric hybrid starting about a year ago. My daily commute was a little longer than when I bought the car, and I wasn't doing as much hauling/camping either, so I figured I go for something a little more fuel-efficient for my commuting vehicle.
In March, I bought a 2003 Beetle with the TDI (diesel) engine. It gets about 45 mpg with 50/50 city/highway driving, and it's got great pickup. The engine only produces 90 hp, but it creates 155 ft-lb of torque. More importantly, the basic diesel engine design is over 100 years old, whereas the electric hybrids are very new developments, and would require mainentance to be performed by the dealer. I prefer to have the option of having my car serviced where I choose, so that factored into my choice.
In addition, about 2/3 of the fuel I put into my car is derived from virgin soy oil, aka: biodiesel. Fueling my car supports my local farmers, keeping my fuel dollars in my local economy instead of adding to the ~100 billion dollars of annual trade deficit just from petroleum imports. In addition, the carbon released into the atmosphere from "burning the bean" releases no new carbon into the air, as that carbon was used by the soy plant during its growth (i.e. biodiesel is "carbon-neutral"). Contrast to burning petroleum, which releases excess carbon from its storage deep inn the earth's crust into the air. In fact, the original demonstration of the diesel engine, ran on peanut oil. Rudolf Diesel's plan was that farmers could grow their own fuel for tractors powered by his engine.
Now, if a Beetle isn't exactly your thing, take a look at the Jetta or Golf with the TDI engines. Take one for a test drive, I dare you. Their fuel economy is just as good as the Beetle, and they have a little more room for hauling, or working under the hood. Now when Jeep releases the Liberty with the diesel engine in 2005, even my SUV can be environmentally conscious =).
In any case, I commend you for checking out more efficient and environmentally friendly options for your vehiclular needs. Good Luck with whatever car you get.
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
Michael,
Hybrid-electric vehicles are excellent choices for many people. You have choice between Honda's Insight (a sporty two-seater that gets 50-70 mpg, depending on 5-spd or CVT), Honda's Civic Hybrid (a hybrid-electric version of the popular Civic sedan), and the Toyota Prius (used to be a compact sedan, but is redesigned for '04 to a mid-size hatchback).
I'd recommend that you check the user groups at Yahoo! for more reading than you can do in a day. Pros, cons, problems, kudos, recalls, praise, success stories of 500- and 600-mile tanks -- all for your reading pleasure.
Try searching Yahoo for (in alphabetical order):
2004-Prius
civic_hybrid
Honda_Civic_Hybrid
Honda_Hybrid
Toyota-Prius
If you want to Go Geek, there's nothing like a Greasel Car. Runs for free, lasts longer than a diesel, and smells like popcorn. Plus, the carbon cycle is closed - you're just burning the plants that sucked the CO2 from the air anyway.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
My girlfriend got a 2003 Civic Hybrid with a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) last April. This vehcile is phenominal. As soon as I have the money, I will be getting one myself.
With proper driving technique, I've gotten it as high as 52.6mpg (average). (There is an instantaneous mpg meter beneath the average gauge that shows you what you're getting as you go over hills and so forth--it really helps you adjust your driving for maximum efficiency.) Without much thought, it usually averages between 43-46mpg. With a 12.7 gallon (it might be 13) tank, I've gone as far as 620 miles.
The engineering is quite nice, the car has been very reliable. The ride is remarkably smooth and the acceleration is silky. Handling is amazing. One nasty downside is the car is very light, so it hydroplanes easier than most vehicles. I would highly recommend getting AA-AAA rated tires (like Falkens) if you drive in wet areas a lot. They will help reduce this.
The interior is great too. If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you would think you were driving a regular car (albeit the console is very slick, kind of a retro look). It's a very spatious, full-sized sedan. The backseat floor does not have a hump in the middle and is also quite generous space-wise. I cannot say enough about the interior: it's a very decent size.
A quick summary of how it works: you have a small, 1.3L gasoline engine (I think 52hp). Right on the drive train, just before the transmission is the electric motor (that contribute an aditional 41hp for a total of 93). When electricity is "pumped" into the motor, it obviously reduces the load on the engine. This is used for acceleration and hill climbing. When idle, the electric motor does what all motors do when pushed externally: it generates power to charge the battery. The brakes are regenerative. When you stop at traffic lights or stop-signs, the engine stops to save gasoline. Since it has solid state ignition, it has zero turn-over, so it starts instantly (as soon as you let off the brake).
Apparantly, there are also a variety of hacks that can be done to cause it to favor the electric motor more for those of us who are really light on the gas pedal. I haven't really investigated this, so consider them rumors.
My recommendation: get one ASAP. You will not be disappointed with this car. It could use a few extra trimmings, but even in its simplicity feature-wise, it's a very enjoyable car. My girlfriend calculates it will pay for itself in a matter of 5 years. Nothing much more to say. At least go test drive one.
Oh, and we also looked at the Toyota Prius. Those things suck ass. They are very rough to drive. The computer screen is always full of motion and it's very distracting without lending much usefulness. Furthermore, it's cramped inside and the vehcile controls are just... bizarre. The engine compartment is also very cramped. Doing work on that vehicle would require taking a lot of shit apart, ergo it may be very expensive to service. Handling sucked. Overall, the Toyota Prius is just as shitty as its Echo counterpart.
One last note: you may want to hold off on a hybrid from anyone though. Honda has plans to market a fuel-cell powered electric car in the US within the next couple of years. Those will be far more interesting I think, if they ever actually reach dealerships.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Honda in any way. They just happen to make a spectacular hybrid vehcile.
Join Tor today!
Ford Escape.
Summer 2004.
Good enough?
buy a diesel VW. my '96 Passat has 140k miles, looks new, and gets 50 mpg while carrying 5 people. and will continue to do so for many years to come. and it doesn't smell, smoke, or have any trouble starting in the winter. and it outaccelerates most four cylinder cars easily. fill the tank up with biodiesel and you're driving the most efficient, environmentally friendly vehicle available. hydrogen, natural gas, electric - none of them are as close to being carbon neutral as biodiesel is.
50 mpg - that's 1000 miles to a tank.
and my wife and I love it.
We have been driving it for 2 years in both city and highway, and in all kinds of weather (we live in Michigan). It drives well, has the most comfortable seats of any car I've ever ridden in, and gets excellent mileage.
We average about 35 mpg city (due to lots of very short trips in cold weather where the engine doesn't get a chance to warm up properly), and 43 mpg highway. A little less than advertised, but still pretty darn good.
We take it on 2-3 extensive road trips each year, anywhere from 600-2000 miles round trip. It is always a great way to travel.
It has a decent amount of power. A little less than some larger cars, but we rarely have trouble getting up to speed quickly on the highway. It's certainly not like driving a Ford Escort or some similar gerbil-mobile.
One of the nice things about a Prius is that, in addition to the good mileage, the emissions are outstandingly low. Many economy cars can achieve the mileage of a Prius, but none of them qualify as a SULEV (Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle) according to the EPA. I believe this is better than the competing vehicles from Honda, but that may have changed with the new Civic.
The new Prius for 2004 will be larger and have a hatchback, so it's even more practical that the older version. I wish we could afford to trade ours in for the new one!
The Prius comes with a full 8-year warranty on the hybrid electrical system, so that should help alleviate any concerns you might have on the long-term reliability of the car.
In short, I highly recommend the Prius. There is a yahoogroup dedicated to the Prius as well, if you are interested in more user experiences. You can find it here.
Good luck with your decision!
--Scott
Type something, will you? We're paying for this stuff!
The other day I was looking at the Volkswagen website. They make the Jetta, Golf and Passat in diesel models. They all get 49 mpg highway. I know that in my town, diesel is a few cents cheaper than regular (87) unleaded gas. I just don't know if the diesel models are available everywhere.
I get actually get 50mpg in my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid; 47 if I run the A/C. But then my daily commute includes 60 miles each way down I5... what pisses me off is that Oregon charges an extra $30 to register the vehicle, to make up for lower amounts I pay in gas tax. Way to go, Oregon! Penalize good gas mileage and reward bad -- that's really in the public interest!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
The most efficient, practical hybrids on the road are the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid.
The Prius or Civic Hybrid get 48 MPG and cost 20K.
Why bother? The Toyota Corolla is $7,000 less, and gets 40 MPG highway. If you drive 20,000 miles per year the gas savings is on the order of $150 per year. You will NEVER come close to making back the price difference.
I've been driving a 2001 Prius for about 10K miles and it works fairly well. It's not mind blowing by any means - there is the occasional jerk when the engine turns on or off (usually smooth though). It corners very well on the mountain roads on the way to go rock climbing. I can get 48 mpg in the mountains, about the same on the highway, but I get much lower doing very short commuting (I'm only 4 mi from work). If only commute, I get about 38 mpg.
Compare this to perhaps 30 mpg for a car that costs $4000 less. Say 30 vs 45 to make the math easy. This means in 90K miles, I use 3000 gallons with the less fuel efficient car. Call this 6000 dollars. By getting 50% better mileage, I use 33% less fuel so I can save 2000 dollars. This assumes I don't have to pay more money at the end of the 90K on replacement batteries, which I'm afraid I will have to.
Get a hybrid only if you really like the driving feel (the CVT on the Prius is great), or if you want to make a statement about the mileage. Don't get one for the economics (until gas hits $5/gallon, or the price differential drops).
If you want to make a different statement, you could also get a PZEV that is a non-hybrid (Ford Focus). The new Toyota Prius should also be a PZEV and is supposed to get a bit better mileage with more room and acceleration.
Dara
Plus, if BioDiesel ever takes off in the U.S., you may be able to use it with little to no modification. Yay!
They already run great on it. Not a thing needs to be changed.
What I'm looking forward to is the phase-in of ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD) fuel like what is used in Europe. That will enable companies to import even more advanced common-rail diesel vehicles to the U.S. VW will be able to bring in their high-performance VW GTI diesel. BMW will be able to bring in their high-performance diesels. So will Mercedes.
Diesels, with their ultra-flat torque curves, are a pleasure to drive. People make the mistake of thinking that a 150hp gasoline engine vehicle is just as responsive as a 150hp diesel engine vehicle. Nothing could be further from the truth. What matters is the area under the torque curve. That's why you will find diesels with less horsepower and faster 0-60mph times and much faster response when the driver is at lower RPMs.
Nothing's better than a good old full-sized GM vehicle (Ford's and Chrysler's full-size models suck ass, but then again, that could be said about their whole line). Safety (for you and others), economy, performance: it's all there.
The outlets are for engine warmers. You plug them in the winter so you can actually start them again.
They are a great value. Your mom would be proud of you.
If driven properly, you should see as high as 46-48mpg in city driving. If you drive with little concern for economy, you usually get around 43-45mpg.
How about on long road trips?Again, driven carefully, I've gotten as high as 52.6mpg on my girl's Honda Civic Hybrid. That is accomplished by driving around ~55mph and slowing a bit when climbing hills. If you drive aggressively (say, 65-70mpg constant), you get around 47-48mpg. They can certainly keep up with traffic, mind you.
Remember, this experience is with a Honda Civic Hybrid, not a Prius. Your milage (arf) will vary.
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If you plan on keeping the car longer than 100,000 miles, factor in the cost of replacing the batteries. When I looked at getting a Prius, batteries cost around $2,000. It's not a deal-breaker because the mileage compensates for the cost but you should be aware of it and budget accordingly.
First, the good news: I drive my car about 40 miles a day (driving commutes suck!) and get around 55 miles per gallon. My commute is about 70%/30% highway to city driving. When I drive it around the city (which I generally try _not_ to do - Boston is bike-friendly enough, plus I live near the T), I get mileage closer to 50 mpg, and when I've gone on longer roadtrips it's up near 60 mpg.
More good news: It's a real car. It seats five. It has a reasonable sized trunk (not huge, though). With a few exceptions, it's very similar to the non-hybrid Civic, so my car is comfortable, well equipped (CD player, power everything, ABS, etc.) and pretty well designed. I wasn't interested in the Insight 'cause it's small and somewhat awkward and not what I call a "real" car.
The not-so-good news: The one large complaint I have about the car is that the back seat does not fold down (that's where they stashed the batteries).
Some economics: I spent a little less than $20K on my car. The hybrid is about three or four thousand more than the regular Civic. I'll get a $2000 deduction on my 2003 income tax (giving me about $600), and I'll save some (but not tons) on gas vs. the regular Civic that probably adds up to over about $1500 over 100,000 miles. So basically, I break even. If I had bought a used car, I would've spent far less money, even in the long run.
I think I made the right decision when I bought my car because:
So, the bad news is that supporting hybrid technology and being good to the environment (while still owning a car) is an expensive proposition right now. The good news is that the more and more people are buying the cars and that if you can afford them, they're quality automobiles.
I'd be happy to answer questions about the Civic or my decision-making process. I also collected some links and made some notes about the car - you can see those here.
Have you considered riding beams of light? They require no fossil fuels and are abundant during the day time. They have great acceleration and a top end light nothing you've ever drove. Night riding can be tricky though. It's a pretty smooth ride, you get to your destination so quickly it almost eliminates driving fatigue. Not to mention you will never run into traffic jams.
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Lousy rotten karmic retribution.
I've owned a Toyota Prius for almost a year and I could not be happier with it.
I originally got it since I would be commuting from to DC from Richmond and not only would I save on the gas, but I could cruise in the HOV!!!
All the reviews I've read have been right. It's a very well designed machine.
For me, however, the best part is just how quiet the thing is. Even when at 85 MPH (slow lane speed on 95!), it's extremely quiet. Nothing like it for long trips with the MP3 player full of LEGALLY ACQUIRED TUNES!
I don't recommend spending the extra $1200 - $1500 for the in-dash GPS. I test drove one with it and decided not to get it. It's pretty cool for awhile, but it's pretty distracting and has a very limited use, IMO.
Now, if it displayed all the wide-open wireless nets, it'd be worth it!
***************
The arguments made in this thread against hybrids are pretty silly, and admittedly, I have the same view about most sports cars.
Sports cars are ugly. They're usually smaller than the people who drive them, and overly bumpy. They enjoy adding curves to the car kind of the same way in cartoons they add muscles to people where there aren't any in real life. They sound horrible, as if someone fired a tommy gun into the engine block and/or muffler. The mileage is awful. They only fit two people. If you get into any crash over 30 mph, you're dead. They can't hold anything. The gas mileage STILL sucks somehow.
Now I look at a hybrid. It takes less gas. It doesn't have tons of money poured into performance over 100 mph (money completely wasted). They have frames that can take much more of an impact. They can hold a lot more cargo AND people. IMHO they are better looking the same way a full bodied woman looks better than an anorexic. Oh and obviously they cost far less, go much farther, and repair much cheaper.
If you have a small penis, absolutely, get a sports car. If OTOH you have a brain, get whatever suits your needs, certainly do not submit to peer pressure or buy a car to impress someone. It's way too important for that crap.
It depends on perhaps how long you want to keep the vehicle. From what I remember reading, saving at the current cost of gas wouldn't pay off the additional cost of a hybrid vehicle until after 5-10 years.
If you're in it for environmental reasons, and/or want to keep the car while, go for it. Otherwise, a nice lightweight non-hyrbrid toyota will still get good gas milage and even my 88 Camry had plenty of zoom (note: standard not woosy auto).
Hybrids have more promise, and are interesting from a technology point of view. Right now they're mainly for the early adopter types though, because the benefits are debatable. You pay about $3000 more for the hybrid motor than an equivalent car with a 4-cylinder gas motor, and wind up saving roughly that much in fuel over the lifetime of the car. You more or less break even financially, but for some folks the satisfaction of saving the planet is the advantage.
Or you could just say the heck with being eco-fashionable and get a real car. There's nothing quite like horsepower, displacement, and 8 cylinders of Detroit muscle. ;)
I get straight ill, ridin' my motorcycle down the street...
An interesting story here in Arizona. A few years ago, there was legislation to provide incentives to people for buying alternative fuel vehicles. The problem, as with most legislation is that there are loopholes. The big problem in this case was that the loopholes were ginormous. As noted here, a check was written for buying an alternative fuel vehicle, or retrofitting a gasoline-based vehicle with an alternative fuel engine. It turns out the value of this check was not capped by the amount a person paid in taxes, meaning you could make money, and then sell your car. Not a bad deal
In the first few months of this offer, the state of Arizona expected about 300 takers to the deal. Instead, there were 2,471, enough to royally screw the state budget. whoops...
Actually the death rate in SUVs is just as high, if not higher due to rollovers.
Well, I don't know about speed but the Honda Civic Hybrid looks exactly like a regular Civic, which is pretty nice looking
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Since Oregon gets so much of its road fund from gas taxes, some bright people in congress got the idea of charging hybrids (and electrics) more money to register them. One of the gov. officials actually was quoted as saying that hybrid and electric car owners aren't paying "their fair share" of road fees. Arguably, a two-thousand pound car with skinny tires probably has the least effect on roads and road repair.
Nobody brought up the idea of free registration for gas-guzzlers. ;)
(By the way, my screen name is not necessarily because I'm a great thinker, but because I own a Honda Insight!)
Pros:
Cons:
Hope that's helpful to those considering the Hybrid. We definitely like ours, and should someday Honda do a Hybrid Accord, we'd be first in line for one.
Take care,
Brian
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http://www.assortedinternet.com - CPanel Web Hosting running on Red Hat Linux
Oops, this was meant to be a reply to another post I made earlier.
Please read it for a good summary of the Honda Civic Hybrid.
Yikes, so much confusion!
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the "few modifications" are engine chip mods that give you more power but are illegal in Europe because they cause the engine to produce excessive amounts of ultra-fine particles which cause lung cancer. In recent research on street-dogs in Mexico-city, the particles were found back in the dogs' brains. Nevertheless, a Golf(Rabbit) or Beetle TDI will straight out of the factory kick the buts of an awefull lot these US hovercr^H^H^H SUV's.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
Wow, you're really fallen into the marketing trap of the automobile manufacturers, haven't you?
You should try doing more research on the subject. There is an excellent book called "High and Mighty: SUVs - The World's Most Dangerous Vehicle and How They Got That Way" by Keith Bradsher. It's a real eye-opener.
The automobile companies push SUVs in a big way because they make LOTS of money from selling them. The push includes marketing them as "safe" vehicles, when in fact the opposite is true.
The estimate I mentioned were "at the current cost of gas."
/. article about harnessing the energy from vibration?
Anyone who doesn't expect gas prices to go higher in the next 5 years raise their hand?
You, in the back, what's your name? Oh just scratching an itch? Alrighty then.
As the cost of gas gets higher, the value and appeal of lower-consumption vehicles will increase. Of course, in the future I'd also assume that they could make newer models more efficient for both power and consumption. How about that previous
Seems to me that you can get the best of both worlds by buying a a diesel-electric hybrid. Imagine a TDI hybrid... great for city driving because of the electric and great for highway driving because of the diesel. Why are we not seeing these?
IMO I think they are a waist. From what I have read, the cars run on electric in the city and gas on the highway. So you get better coty milleage but your highway milleage is the same is a normal car. And, if you run the AC, the motor has to run, so on those hot summer days in the city your hybrid is pointless.
"A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of." - Burt Bacharach
SUVs roll over. Haven't you noticed? You're more likely to get into an accident with one.
On the contrary, the statistics show that the smaller cars are far more likely to kill you. But I'm sure you won't let facts sway you.
Last year, my wife and I looked very hard at the 2002 Civic hybrid. I got cold feet because of the fact that there were rumors of insufficient pick-up, plus there was the problem that, for the standard-shift version, which I wanted, we would have to wait several extra months, because the automatics were being brought in first.
While we were waiting, it occurred to us that a standard-shift hybrid actually doesn't make much sense, if the point is efficiency, and that what we really wanted was a fun car, and also one that would be small enough to park in our congested urban neighborhood of DC. Also, I was concerned that we would not have an opportunity to test-drive the hybrid.
Another factor was my general sense that hybrid was likely to be a transitional technology, and that within a decade or so, fuel-cell cars might become common.
Anyways, we broke down and went the more selfish route, and got a Civic Si, and I'm very satisifed with it -- I take public transit to and from work, so my environmental impact isn't so bad.
It seemed clear the marketing surrounding the hybrid was all about practicality, which is of course fine. But if they want to sell one to me, they're going to have to make it more fun.
2*3*3*3*3*11*251
We have a 2002 Toyota Prius and we love it. We get around 43 MPG and about 500 miles on a tank of gas. The tax credit (10% of the purchase price) was great and we are working on GA legislation to enable hybrids to drive in the carpool lanes as AFVs can today.
I would recommend a Prius to anyone as Toyota is also a great company to do business with. My mother is planning to purchase a 2004 Prius which has significant improvements over the current model. My only advice against buying might be to wait for the 2004 Prius. A new hybrid engine which will be much better is expected.
Rumours also have it that there will be a Lexus SUV with the new Toyota Hybrid engine in 2005.
Come play Moral Decay!
I took a job which requires about 150 miles of travel per day, so I purchased the car for basic transportation. I purchased the manual transmission model due to personal preference, YMMV (literally) with the automatic model. On average, I get between 52 and 58 mpg on basic highway driving at 65 mph. Air conditioning will take 5 mpg off of that. Traveling at 75 mph will drop another 5 to 8 off of that. Wind and weather conditions can effect the mileage as well. Stop and go driving in town with the air on will net me 35 to 40 mpg. Drafting semis on the Interstate at 75 mph will get you 60+ mpg.
I'm a big guy - 6'4" and 250 lbs, and I fit in the machine pretty well. I have about an inch of headroom left. I can get the seat far enough back, but no one but a child would be able to sit behind me.
I paid less than $20000 for it - plus there is a one-time $2000 tax-deduction, so that's a bonus.
I've put about 16000 miles on it so far. It drives and handles like any other 4 cylinder basic transportation car I've ever driven. The torque is better, though, so I don't feel like I'm going to have to get out and push while trying to get onto the Interstate.
Some nits: It takes 0W20 oil, which I've had trouble finding. The good news is that oil changes are only every 5000 miles. It doesn't have much cargo capacity - total weight is only 800 lbs. You can really tell the difference when you have it full. The rear seats don't fold down like a standard Civic (the batteries sit on the rear axle), so the trunk is a little confining. I would only rate it at one-dead-body.
Overall, it's been great regular transportation. I liked it alot better than the other Honda hybrid. That car was smaller and lighter and got pushed around on the Interstate. This is a regular Civic in most every way except the powertrain.
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If your answer is Microsoft, you obviously didn't understand the question.
I have been following hybrid cars since their commercial debut with the Honda Insight. The two major hybrid cars out now are the Honda Civic hybrid and the Toyota Prius.
The Honda has a pancake-shaped electric motor bolted to the engine where the flywheel originally was. This is simple and straightforward, and it means that they can (and do) treat the hybrid as just another option in the car, like leather seats. The significant downside is, though, that the electric motor and gasoline motor must always run at the same speed -- there is no way to run just on the electric engine (say).
The Prius uses a planetary gearbox to mix the outputs from the gasoline and electric motors. The gearbox acts as a mechanical 'adder', adding the two outputs together regardless of their relative speed. This allows the Prius to be much more flexible in how it runs its motor -- allowing significantly increase in-city fuel economy. Astonishingly, the Prius's city MPG numbers are higher than their highway MPG numbers, because the car can often run on purely electric power in stop-and-go traffic. Also, because the car's computer has flexible and complete control over the gas engine, they can make the engine significantly lighter and more efficient -- because they can ensure (for instance) that it is never over-revved.
The new Prius a huge advance over old one. The original had the same body as the Toyota Echo, perhaps the ugliest car every built. The new one is bigger, sleeker, much more practical with a big hatchback, and gets significantly better fuel economy than the old one. It's a true 21st century car. The New York Times review, two weeks ago, was a flat-out rave.
The only criticism I have of the Prius is that it is quite complex mechanically -- and those mechnical things can go wrong. Like any other Linux user, I feel somewhat bad about handing over so much control to the car's computer, even though I know in my heart that it's the right thing to do.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
...because they are apparently selling them for $5-10k less than it costs to make them.
Granted, the hybrid technology eats up a chunk of that, but it's a chance to get a $30,000 car for $20k.
Eventually, the prices will go up, and manufacturing costs will go down, but they are still a good deal, what with the options they give away on them.
Conventional wisdom says that cars you intend to keep for a long time you should buy; cars you intend to keep for a short time and replace, you should lease. Following that line of reasoning, any type of car that's founded on quickly changing technology is a car you're going to want to replace in a short time, and therefore you should lease, not buy.
I hope that after I die the one word people use to describe me is "resurrected."
I just saw a special on TV...I think it was on Nova...about 2 weeks ago talking about fuel cell cars. The ones that use hydrogen and the exhaust is water vapor.
Shouldn't we wait for these? I mean, they had a vehicle running on a fuel cell in the show with those two car guys from NPR checking it out. So fuel cells have to be well off the drawing board if they have a prototype running around.
Did anyone else see this program?
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
I understand that, at first, the car companies were selling these at a loss. Is that still true?
As far as mileage, you need to consider the increased cost of the vehicle versus what it costs you in gasoline. Of course, the hybrids may be cheating by giving the car away for cheaper, but anyway...
Compare a Diesel Golf to a hybrid, for example.
Diesel Golf, $17k, 45 MPG avg (from VW website, 42 city, 49 hwy for 4 door mode.)
Now, at this point, I started running around the web, looking for mileages. What I found tells me that the average user is getting between 40 and 50 MPG from Honda Civic and Toyota Prius hybrids. I was going to run some calcs on payback times, but obviously it's pointless. Some people are getting up to 75 MPG, but NOT REGULARLY. When they show their lifetime mileages, it falls below 50 MPG. This is so close to what you can get from a nice compact diesel that it seems to me that the hybrid is just a lot of stuff to break down without increasing your mileage.
Admittedly, the performance could be better in the hybrid than the diesel, I don't know. And the same VW Golf with a gas engine only gets about 28 MPG.
Also, are the emissions enough lower compared to a conventional high mileage car to make up for the environmental cost of manufacturing the batteries, extra control circuitry, etc, and doing end-of-life disposal of all of that junk?
I have a friend who owns a Honda Insight. His record is 77 mpg, and he swears one day he's going to take out the passenger seat and spare tire and break 80 mpg. He is very happy with the Insight, and has not had any maintenance problems he's seen fit to share. Still, the Insight only seats two, and I wouldn't want to be in the Electric Rollerskate during an accident.
The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic hybrid get poorer mileage than the Insight. The Prius does better mileage-wise than the Civic, since it was specifically designed with a lighter body for the electric motor, while the Civic looks like a "real" car. Another friend who owns a Prius is quite happy with his choice, as well. For more geek cred, the Prius also has an in-dash computer that can show gas mileage and battery charge, and uses regenerative braking. The weird center console might be a turnoff, though.
Bear in mind, if anything does go wrong, expecially with the transmission, you are in for some expensive service. Hybrids aren't nearly as user-serviceable as pure ICE cars. Also, they list around $US5,000 (or more) higher than comparable regular cars (at least when I was looking), which will take a while to make up in savings on gas. If you're doing it for the environment, well, good for you.
Last, hybrids haven't been around long enough to have decent reliability statistics yet. But they're made by Honda and Toyota, so you're probably safe on that score.
For actual data, instead of anecdotes, you might want to go to your local library (where they keep the dead trees), and look at some back issues of car magazines. Consumer Reports also took a look at hybrids a while back.
-Carolyn
Like Daddy always said: if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.
Oh BTW, how can anybody in good consience moderate the parent as troll?
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/16/hydro gen.cars/
http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles /46906/article.html
We just need a few more nuclear plants, the will... and... ahem... face all the $$$ oil lobbies can use against any enterprise promoting hydrogen fuel............
But keep it at complaining. Please don't fight gas taxes if they are proposed. High gas taxes hurt your wallet, but you knew what you were getting into. Low gas prices hurt national security, the environment, and much, much more.
The fule economy is great, but one should consider the high cost of these small cars in contrast to other small cars if the reason they think they are getting the car is for economy.
If you figure you are going to get 100,000 miles from this car and get a 20 mpg improvement in fuel economy, that is 5000 gallons of gas saved. Price certainly varies, but if you average $1.50 a gallon for that gas that would be a "savings" of $7500 in gas over the life of the car. But if you have to pay that much more up front to buy this small car contrasted to other small cars (and are paying interest on that extra up-front costs in the form of higher car payments) and still have to put up with the little engine and lack of acceleration, as well as the extra costs of dealing with those expensive batteries and other maintence issues, the claim but the fuel economy is great might turn out to be a serious illusion. Sure, you might keep the car long enough to pay it off, or gas prices might go through the roof, or you might live in California where they already do, or you might have other motives in getting the car, but one should do an honest contrast of this car against other available conventional cars that get good mileage and cost less before deciding that they need to pay lots of extra money up front for this car in the expectation that the fuel economy is great .
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
I test drove a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and must say I was quite impressed. The pickup was nice, but about on par with a normal Civic. I mean let's face it, the car is still a Civic. The instrument panel was quite attractive, but the only nagging concern I would have about the Hybrid cars is battery life. Until these cars have been out on the road for a number of years we really won't know what the life expectancy is for the battery. I asked the sales rep and replacing the battery in the Civic would not be cheap. Still, if you're willing to take that risk I'd say go for it. The Hybrids look like great cars from what I've read/experienced. Just be aware of the possibility of replacing the battery.
Oh, and don't ask the sales rep about the battery life. One, they don't know, and two they'll say something like "I've heard it lasts longer than the car". I tried asking the sales rep I was talking to and he admitted point 1 and said point 2.
Khyronand then if you get into in accident with your hybrid SUV, the other guy is dead. yeah, great idea . . . having that on my concious is a great alternative.
Knowing that the other guy is dead because he did something stupid, and my kids are alive because I bought a big car? I think I can live with that.
On a motorcycle? Hybrid vehicles get better than that. What do you have a 1000cc bike or something? A 250cc engine should be big enough for anyone. (Get a dual-sport so you can go off-road too!)
I had a 2000 VW Gold TDI and pulled 700 miles on a 15 gallon tank. I'm backwards-math-dyslexic but anybody should know that some crazy mad milage. Not bad for a car that has ~150 ft/lbs tourque. That and ya can fill up with the big rigs.
I have no complaints about its ability to get up and go. It's perhaps a bit more sluggish than my old 93 Cougar, which had a V-6, but it's about the same as a Camry or some of the other 4-bangers I've driven.
But remember, MPG isn't the only consideration. With a Prius, at least, it's designed to emit less toxic crap even when the engine is running, so it's greener in that regard, too. Plus, you don't have to get your oil changed as often -- again, less toxic waste you have to use, then dispose of.
The hybrid components are all under a good warranty. When I bought mine (and I assume it's still the case), Toyota pays for all your regular maintenance, which helps make up a bit for the slightly higher purchase price. Plus you get a tax deduction (at least, I think you still do).
The breaking takes a little getting used to, but I really, really enjoy mine. It's a great car.
MOST of the benefits from Hybrids comes from Regenerative Breaking - this is why you get obnoxiously high milage in stop and go traffic, and good, but not amazing milage on the highway.
Some people hate the feel of the breaking, to the point of feeling unsafe when they drive.
Hybrids have some of the worst warranties and maintenance records. Partially because it's new technology, and partially, because the manufacturers don't want to pay to replace those expensive-ass batteries.
Similar highway milage can be obtained in a much more cost-effective vehicle. Like a 5 year old Civic.
Even BETTER highway milage can be obtained with a VW Turbo Diesel. (Available in a Jetta, Beelte, or Golf). Diesel is also much cheaper per gallon 'round these parts. ($1.85 compared to $2.19 for 87 octane self-serve name-brand gasoline). Plus, you qualify in some states for an "alternate fuel vehicle" tax break.
The VW TDI engine can also run on biodiesel (unrealistic today, but possibly more available at some point in the future?)
Unfortunately, Diesel exhaust contains very fine particles which are thought to be the main contributing factor in asthma. So, in California, you will not be able to purchase or register a 2004 TDI. However, you can obtain earlier models (1996-2003).
Though VW is among the poorest performer in the industry, as far as customer satisfaction and maintenance problems go. They DO have a good warranty.
For the money, this is the best milage vehicle on the road today.
The turbo gives the engine lots of torque (considering it's only 1.9 liters), and there's tons of aftermarket hod-rodding stuff to make it even sportier.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
A Mini Cooper gets 28/37 MPG, as noted here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/19303.shtm l. Why not get a fun car to drive that's also fuel efficient?
.bob
It's always darkest before
Because if it's "Bigger" it must be "safer" of course! Never mind the rollovers, which simply don't happen in smaller cars. I know someone who saw a collision between a ford explorer and a Civic. The Civic t-boned the ford and the thing rolled over and then collapsed. The chick (who ran a red light) had to go to the hospital, while the people in the civic walked away.
But feel free to risk your life on simple approximations when real data (govt. and insurance crash test ratings) is easily available...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed.
p l
I have never owned a car in my entire life.
I ride my bike everywhere I go. I save thousands of dollars on gas, insurance, maintenance, parking, tickets, registration, etc. I stay fit, so I save time and money on medical bills/healthcare. Since Im totally in shape, I definitely have more success getting girlfriends too.
I live in Seattle where the climate is fairly mild but it rains half the year. Biking in the rain sounds horribly unpleasant, biking uphill sounds horribly unpleasant. Biking in traffic sounds horribly unpleasant. You get used to all of these things when you have no other means of transport...and they quickly become non-issues. I find myself biking up the steepest hills in the city multiple times a day without thought, without exhaustion.
In Seattle, bikes can be put on the front of buses on a very well designed bike rack. So you can ride the bus uphill to a location (usually faster than biking) and bike back down (which is faster than bussing back downhill). If its pouring and Gore-Tex isn't good enough (which is rare in Seattle, believe it or not) you can always put your bike on the bus. Another reason it's nice to put your bike on the bus is if you don't want to arrive at your destination all sweaty...but you can still zip home really fast.
Bikes has been a very practical method of transportion, and its better for the environment and for the general health of the population. It's even better than driving an electric car.
There are times however when I wish I could escape the city altogether... I usually find girls with cars to take me out of the city. There are times when I wish I could hall a large object, like a computer monitor, or appliance. I can usually arrange to borrow cars from friends although I have been known to bring large objects onto the bus.
Naturally, the distance you travel everyday and your physical condition will dictate the practicality of riding a bike. But if your chief concern is helping the environment... there is no better chioce.
You can probably buy a fantastic bike every single year for same expense as buying/oiperating one used car.
Consider it.
PS. The Seattle bus system has a half-decent online trip planner that facilitates timing your trips.
http://tripplanner.metrokc.gov/cgi-bin/itin_page.
you need to look at a deisel. The Deisel engine was built to run on peanut oil and with very minor modification most all deisel trucks and coups today can be modified to run on a mix of alcohol and vegitable oil ....the emissions smell like frenchfries and is clean as can be. Also this fuel is renewable and about the same price per gallon as gasoline. ...check out grassoline.com to learn more.
Try my new smokable Sig,
But it had no A/C, and was starting to get the body cancer (the '83s got dipped, dang), so I had to let it go before moving down South.
For having a "conventional" engine, I was surprised that they can't even get close to that nowadays without sticking a battery in. Could the emissions standards be that more stringent today? It wasn't anything special; just a regular econobox four-seater hatchback.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
The only stat that matters is deaths per mile traveled or at least deaths per accident. If you drive a civic to work each day and take a suburban to the cabin once a month, you're more likely to die in the civic.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
What, if you hit a telephone pole and power lines fall on you?
paintball
I have a 2001 prius, and I like it. The primary disadvantage comes if something goes wrong.
m essage/14361)
Jump it wrong? 10k to fix the damage, at least according to someone at the dealership. (Something went horribly wrong there, the cost of the battery itself is 4000, with prices expected to drop to 1000 according to http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/
They will be cost effective, but they aren't just yet. Don't get me wrong, I really like mine and I'd love to have a 2004, but it isn't a choice to be made on economics.
Diesals are cheap, so if you only care about saving money it's a good alternative, BUT if you care about the enviroment it's far worse than petrol and hybrid alternatives.
It is true that modern diesel engines produce a lot less carbon dioxide than before, so some people claim diesels are enviromentally friendly, but diesels produce much more of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and toxic particulate matter (or soot) into the air we breathe than petrol counterparts. These particles, because they are small enough to be inhaled deep into the lungs, can cause or exacerbate a variety of serious health problems.
Even with the EuroIV(2005) and EuroV(2008) regulations, diesels are still much larger pollutants than petrol engines, and release more arsenic, lead, sulfur, and other particulate matter into the enviroment.
I own a Toyota Prius, which is a Parallel type hybrid, meaning that the electrical drive systems operate parallel to the gasoline drive train, and can be switched on and off. The honda hybrid system is a serial system, in which the gas drive train and the electrical drive train are in line with each other and the electrical drive train operates all of the time.
The practical difference is that the parallel system gets less gas mileage (real life results 45-47 MPG) but is environmentally cleaner owing to the fact that the engine can be shut off at idle, when most of your engine emissions occur. The serial system gets more mileage, but my experience is that they don't have as much power. My Prius blows the doors off of my boss' Civic hybrid.
So keep in mind that there are differences between the designs. Just because you like or dislike one, doesn't mean that you won't feel different about the other.
I have never found myself wishing for more pickup. Acceleration is excellent, and it has surprising climbing power. My daily climb up 2000 feet (over 50 miles) never requires me to move over to the slow lane.
The car is roomy. The trunk is very functional, and it is a four door. The cup holders suck.
All that being said, you could probably get the same mileage out of a cheaper conventional compact car. Hybrids are about $3000 to $4000 more than a cheap gasoline powered compact, so you really need to have some commitment to the environmental benefits. If all you are looking for is good gas mileage, buy a Toyota Echo or something similar.
Bottom line: I have no regrets about the Prius, and I am debating trading this one in on the new 2004, which is a four door hatchback instead a trunk.
_____ "The truth is a virus."-Laurie Anderson
Greeting-
I own one of the first Toyota Prius that came
into the country. The car really rocks! It is
great both on the highway and in the city. The
biggest variable on fuel consumption is use of
heat/AC. On a nice spring or fall day with no
heat/AC running I do right around the 50MPG that
they claim in the EPA tests. These results are
in the north east with highway speeds limited to
55. On a long trip from New York to Texas last
year with a crusing speed of 70 Mph from West
Virginia to Texas the millage was 42Mpg with the
heat running.
Folks that claim the cars do not have enough
pickup have probably never driven one! I also
think that the prius is cute. It is about the
same size as the new Honda 4 door hybrid
offering, but gets better millage and offers
less polution. The Honda runs the internal
combustion engine all the time and uses the
battries for a boost when needed. The Toyota
actually shuts down the gasoline engine when it
is not needed. I have had the ICE shutdown
on the highway and been on total battery power
even at highway speeds.
Due to changes in the electrical end of things
and even better arodynamics the 2004 Toyota Prius
is slightly bigger than the older ones, but has
more power and gets better milage! This is the
4th year that the Prius is being sold in the USA
and it was sold in Japan for several years before
that.
The poster that commented on the American Hybrid
pulled had the reason wrong. It has nothing to
do with charging technology. You do not plug in
a Hybrid. The electricity to charge the battery
comes from regenerative breaking or surpluss
power generated by the ICE when it is running.
The ICE is set to run at nearly a constant
RPM so it is at it's most effecient. If it is
generating more power than the wheels need the
surplus goes to the battery. The american
offering was pulled because it was a
Diesel-electric Hybrid and the US EPA rubber
stamped the California EPA anti-diesel laws
to become national law, so even though the
deisel-electric was more effecient than a
gasoline-electric and put out less real polution
than current year model all gasoline cars
the project had to be scrapped.
Slashdot may not be the best place to ask about
hybrids. There are Hybrid owner websites and
even a yahoo-groups devoted to hybrids.
Hope this helps!
No, the Ford Explorer rolls over as well.
If you have tons of kids and diaper bags, why not buy a wagon?
Deaths per million drivers:
Ford Explorer: 56, 26 by rollover
Subaru Outback wagon: 74, 18 by rollover
Saturn SW: 63, 6 by rollover
More likely to roll over; less likely to die.
Of course, the really large vans are even safer, but we're talking about comparisons to fuel-efficient cars here. The big vans are just as heavy as the SUVs, and do just as much damage to the guy you run into. Further, you're sitting lower to the ground than the SUV, so your ability to predict a crash is lowered.
I don't know how much you actually might need to use the car (ie, do you need it for daily commutes or just occaisional drives). If you don't need one that often, another transportation possibility to consider is a service like Zipcar or Flexcar or one of the other variations in cities around America where you can rent vehicles by the hour. I need a car here in New York only sometimes, and owning one is prohibitively expensive, so Zipcar has been a real bargain. Just so you know...
got numbers a little better then that, and it cost 6995. It was a 3 cylindar stick, with 90 hp.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Pet Peeve #843290: The new trend of prefixing comments with "Pet Peeve #i+1"
Pet Peeve #i+2 - I fed my Pet Peeve today. He ate everything. I was so proud. Then I shaved him and took him outside to play, where he was suddenly run over by some insensitive clod in an SUV.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
2000-current Honda Insight, 2-seater:p ?ModelName=Insight
p ?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid
l e.html and here http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/specs/specs_b ody.html )
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2003-current Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2001-2003 Toyota Prius 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.toyota.com/prius
2004 Toyota Prius 5-passenger midsize liftback:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/index.html
(for those who dislike Flash, info here:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/html/printab
if you live in Japan there is also the hybrid
Estima (7-8 passenger minivan similar to the Previa),
and the mild-hybrid Crown large sedan.
if you can wait a year or so, Ford should have out
their hybrid Escape (info: http://www.hybridford.com (Flash only),
a "small" SUV/CUV that actually has towing capacity.
Lexus should also have their RX330 hybrid (the
RX400H) small SUV/CUV out (see http://www.lexus.com/about/hybrid/index.html
with Toyota shortly following with the hybrid
Highlander cousin.
I've also heard of the GM/Saturn Vue, the Nissan
Altima (I think that's the model), and the Toyota
Sienna, as next on the block with hybrid powertrains
(i.e. full/assist hybrids).
-mrv
SUVs are an over-sold segment of the car market. For every one like yourself with legitimate reasons to drive a gas guzzler pseudo-truck there must be a hundred people who just like the status symbol, or being "above" the traffic, or because their 10-year-old wanted one.
Most SUVs that I see in morning and evening commuter traffic are carrying exactly one (1) person, probably nothing in the cargo section, and the roads are dry and safe most of the time. In addition to endangering drivers in compact cars, these monstrosities are helping pay for al-Qaeda, suicide bombers, and anti-Western extremists all over the Muslim world. Man.
Therefore, I propose that we have here in the USA a progressive sales tax on gasoline:
For MPG = 10, driver must pay extra $1 in tax per gallon
10 - 15 MPG = $.80 tax
15 - 18 MPG = $.50 tax
etc. until you reach 60 MPG which would incur no tax at all.
The tax would go to pay for road repairs necessitated by all those heavy SUVs and also subsidize collision insurance for small car drivers, since statistically an SUV will cream a compact in a collision.
SUVs furthermore should be taxed like the trucks that they are rather than like the passenger cars they pretend to be.
High mileage cars such as hybrids should be un-taxed; i.e. there should be substantial tax breaks to make them competitive with traditional vehicles. Alternative fuels like grain alcohols should be encouraged any way possible; put all that midwestern corn to use.
In a few years the U.S. could be a net energy exporter and also reduce its accounts deficit by hundreds of billions of dollars a year, if only it had the political will to enact some of these policies.
To the original poster... yes! Buy a hybrid; at least you're doing your little bit.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
I bought one of the first Priuses when they first became available in the U.S. It is a great car. If you don't tell people it is a hybrid car before they drive it they never notice. From a standard car user point of view there is no difference between it and a normal car.
If you are some sort of car geek there may be issues with it, but take things like "no pickup at freeway speeds" with a grain of salt. Who cares? Can you drive it on the freeway? Of course. Can you pass, merge, drive up and down steep hills? Of course. Most of that stuff is like computer geeks who will talk your ears off for hours about the advantages of DDR RAM over conventional SDRAM. Of course there is a difference, but whichever you use, you can still write your email.
But there are some real differences between the Prius and a regular car. It costs half as much to operate than just about any other car from the gas savings (for me about $2000 a year). Also it produces 90% less polution than just about any other car. Those are real differences that really matter.
If you go check on www.edmunds.com, the car review site, they have a lot of information on cars, such as "true cost to own" this includes all maintenance costs, fuel costs, depreciation, insurance, financing, taxes and fees and repair fees. i believe that this is a good indicator to how much a car costs on a per year basis. if someone checked it out, they'd notice that after 5 years, when comparing the 2003 Toyota Prius with the 1.5L automatic Toyota Echo 2003, even after the costs of gasoline, the toyota echo comes out over 3000 dollars less than the prius. -----however, this doesn't include options such as GPS and tax benefits and the added incentive of being able to drive in the carpool lane that you get from the prius. -------But it's a fantastic selling point for the echo for lower income families. I believe there should be financial aid to help those of low income purchase a prius without needing to put money up front. ------another point someone else should tackle is how much pollution is made from creating battery packs and the electronic systems that are installed in the prius to allow all those functions to work conjunctively with the gasoline motor. if people didn't know, it takes a lot of chemicals to make printed circuit boards, and a lot of chemicals to make batteries.
There is no way your 240sx has a Cd of .26. No chance.
As for looks, the Honda Civic Hybrid looks nearly identical to a Honda Civic, so it's just "a car". The Prius, however, does have its own look because it is its own unique model. I happen to think it's ugly, but I really like the things Edmunds.com had to say about it in their first review
And speaking of the look of the Insight, it's really just a modern take on the CRX. They're strikingly similar in appearance.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Before I decided to fall back to my usual pattern and buy a good used car, I considered seriously both an Insight and a Prius. Test-drove both, and found them to be acceptable for most normal types of driving. But these cars are more disparate in design strategy than the press would have you understand. The differences can help you decide which type is best for you. The Honda Civic and Insight are gasoline engine-powered cars with a supplementary electric motor to provide extra power when needed for acceleration and/or hill-climbing. Thus they get better mileage on flat open highways when they can run in overdrive on gasoline power only. The Toyota Prius (both the current one and the new one being introduced) are electric cars with a supplementary gasoline engine to provide extra power at speeds over 15-20 mph and to charge the batteries when required. Thus they get better mileage at slow speed and in stop & go traffic where they can run mostly on battery power. Other differences that result from the above design strategies: 1. At stop-lights, both shut down completely. But if you then start up by slowly pressing the accelerator (or the clutch on a manual) the Honda will start its gasoline engine and begin to move (with an automatic transmission) or run and wait for you to shift and pop the clutch. The Prius will begin to move forward on electric power only, and will not start the gasoline engine unless you push the accelerator down faster or reach a speed of about 15 mph. 2. Thus in stop & go traffic the Prius functions mostly as an electric automobile and can get very good mileage in these conditions. However, heating and air conditioning for the car need the higher power of the gasoline engine. So in the far north and far south of the US people should expect to get lower gas mileage than the car's specifications indicate. (I think this is one of the reasons Toyota has cycled through a redesign faster than Honda has.)
The Google calculator just keeps amazing me.r +100+kilometer
http://www.google.com/search?q=50+mpg+in+liter+pe
Got the same car. Love it. Not too long ago I read some article (in Ars Technica) about how driving the HCH changes the way you drive. It's absolutely true. I'm from a country where people drive with intent to kill. Stop signs are taken as suggestions. Always drove fast, recklessly and (my wife would argue) stupidly. I was brought up that way, sorry. Anyway, since I got the HCH my only goal while driving is to maximize the mileage. This model comes with an instantaneous mileage reading and a cumulative one. So now I rarely go over 68 mph. I'm getting 57~58 mpg on the road, and around 48 in the city (I have the manual shift one - another cultural hangup). There's just one thing that I started doing that is definitely moronic. I tend to lock on big semis and tailgate them to improve the mileage even more. Feel like Lance Armstrong. Except he's not retarded, I think. Anyway the technology on these guys is pretty awesome. You get to a stop sign, and the engine stops. Start rolling again and the engine starts as you press the accelerator. A thing of beauty. Plus it's really quiet, and if you choose to ignore it, you would never know that you are not driving just a regular Civic. Finally, you get an obnoxious smug feeling when the idiots on the SUV zoom by you. (Though you could hit 100 mph if you were not so compulsively trying to break the barrier of 60 mpg).
Just to point out how useless those stats are as far as actual saftey.
Mazda Miata (a tiny convertable): 59
Chevrolet S10 Blazer 4dr: 195
Ford Explorer 2dr: 231
Chevrolet T10 Blazer 2dr: 153
In actuality, those numbers represent a combination of saftey and how much use the vehicles get. You can get the numbers to say whatever you want if you cherrypick (like you did)
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Mileage is good but air pollution is terrible. Wait (hope?) for the clean-air deisels to come to the US.
Umm... you must have been reading the book in reverse negative format. As supply stays constant and demand increases, there is a shift of the curve and cost goes up. Now, if you want to assume that supply is variable, as demand goes up so will supply to meet that demand; but that is assuming cost stays the same, which it won't. In the end, increased demand will always mean increased cost with a product like oil.
For technology things, that can be a different story... tech advances and larger production scales make cost of production go down, so a higher demand could make price go down but only if supply goes up.
IANAL, but I play one on
I'm an avid enviro-geek that follows EVs even more than computers, but when it came time to buy a new car earlier this year I bought an '03 Jetta TDI wagon to run biodiesel (http://www.biodiesel.org/).
I test drove:
- 2003 Honda Insight (stick and CVT automatic models)
- 2003 Toyota Prius
(note that a new, improved 2004 model is out now, and should be worth the look - http://www.toyota.com/newprius/ ).
- Volkswagen Golf and Jetta TDIs (for use with biodiesel, of course)
I found the Insights had poor pickup, although they handled and cruised very nicely and had great looks. I was seriously concerned about passing on a hill. Also, a long-time stick-shift fan, the manual transmission Insight messed me up - you can't shift by engine RPM because part of your power is from electric motor! On the other hand, the CVT was one of the few automatic transmissions I'd consider buying. If you want an Insight, I vote CVT for driving experience.
The 2003 Prius had good pickup, but poor highway cruising, and mediocre looks. For city-style driving, it would be a great car. Unfortunately, I drive a healthy mix of highway miles, and I found that I was always fighting to keep the cruising speed up. I felt like I had to play leadfoot to keep the vehicle moving. I also found that the dashboard graphics were not as useful as in the Insight, although I like the centered dashboard instrumentation.
I'm curious to try the newly-redesigned 2004 Prius. It's supposed to have more power and a smoother, more refined hybrid system. This might fix my major gripe with it.
I ended up liking the VW TDI's best. They are all fairly luxuriously appointed with dozens of well-engineered touches, and have a very smooth and comfortable ride. The quietly purring diesels have gobs of torque that make for a fun drive. And you're still looking at 42-52 mpg (I get 45mpg in my Jetta TDI wagon). Plus you can get completely off gasoline (and oil politics) if you buy 100% biodiesel (a.k.a. B100). The downside? While they produce less CO2 and "greenhouse" gases than any gasoline vehicles, their emissions of NOx or "smog-forming" emissions are worse. The biodiesel helps greatly compared to petro-diesel, but it is still worse than any gasoline car in that regard.
I'm personally keeping a lookout for newer-technology catalytic converters that are on the horizon.
Hope this helps anyone trying to make a decision.
P.S. I recommend the Golf TDI as best bang for the buck if you don't absolutely need the extra little bit of cargo space the wagon affords.
I'm not sure if this post originates in the US and if so what LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) supply for cars is like over there, but I've been running a factory installed dual-fuel Vauxhall Astra for over 12 months and in the UK paying 39.9p or less per litre for LPG compared to 73.9p per litre for petrol makes it a great alternative fuel for me. I do around 20,000 miles per year and I'll get my money back from the conversion costs after 18 months of driving, so only 6 months to go before I actually start to make money back on the price of the car. Fuel economy on LGP is around 75% of that when I run on petrol, but the huge price difference means for long distance travelling I have been as low as 5.5p per mile fuel costs compared to around 9p per mile on petrol. Performance of the engine drops about 3% when on LPG and you'd have to be VERY picky to notice that! It also runs quieter on LPG aswell. Cost to add LPG: 1950 Rebate from the Government: 60% of pre-VAT costs: 950ish Total conversion cost from factory install: 1000 Anyhow, this may or may not be food for the proverbial thoughts, Regards, nry
They have used hybrid engines in Trains for decades. I'm sure a locomotive engine is more powerfull then your average SUV...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Buddy,for the money,I'd find me a nice PRE-emissions era vehicle with a BIG F***ing V8,drop some money into carbeuration,a phatter cam and an electric fuel pump and drive like hell till i got there!
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
A late model (98 up 2L SPI) Ford Escort can be had for real cheap and they get 39mpg highway. Stay away from 1.9L. I bought a '98 Escort wagon/estate/break in excellent condition for $3K.
I don't have a hybrid. But I am the proud co-owner of a 2000 Renault Twingo. It is a gutless wonder that gets 100km/5.5l. (You do the math). No you could never drive it in the states, but in Slovenia, it does just fine. It is a mindset (and possibly an ecologically destructive mindset) that says that a car MUST body shake and have a torque step like a Funny Car in order for it to be viable transportation.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
> They already run great on it. Not a thing needs to be changed.
I recently read this, which makes me wonder:
"Currently. Ford, Dodge and Volkswagen all void warranties if biodiesel is used. Volkswagen, however, sells a "biodiesel kit" that includes a few modifications suggested if biodiesel is used. Biodiesel has a somewhat lower energy density and more oxygen than petroleum diesel."
I prefer my hydrogen powered Jeep, but maybe that's just me.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Buy a standard vehicle and have it converted to use propane, butane or liquid natural gas. Cheap easy to find fuel and good for the enviroment.
...get one of those new Dodge Neon SRT/4's... Fastest affordable production car on the street, with 22mpg city and 30mph highway. The added bonus of no batteries to worry about replacing, and not having to worry about an electric motor for acceleration help. They're $20g sticker price, a little difficult to find sometimes, though.
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Resolving confusion: I meant to make this post a response to this one. Read it if you want specific answers to the question in the story.
Join Tor today!
For most hybrids, the engine is only used to charge the batteries, and the actual 'drive' comes from the electic motor.
Thus the size of your engine isnt relevent in the sence of 'pickup'...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
What I'd really like to see is a turbo diesel hybrid, or at least the regenerative braking. It's ridiculous that all cars today don't have that feature, especially for city driving.
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
. If you're in or near Silicon Valley and want to see some commercial, some prototype, and some hobbyist/hacker electric cars in person, this is a good show - there have been a lot of interesting cars and bikes there over the years. As the directions say, it's really at Palo Alto High School (across El Camino from Stanford.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
If I only had mod points...
www.biodiesel.org Try a diesel VW with this alternative fuel.
what econ course did you take?
How about "Excise tax theory"? Hybrid vehicles use less petrol but tear up the roads just as much, government has less money for road repairs, government increases petrol excise, price at pump goes up.
Will I retire or break 10K?
See biodiesel.org and veggievan.com for info on biodiesel in general, or to make your own biodiesel at home. Also see Josh Tickell's book "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank" for detailed instructions on becoming your own fuel supply without making any changes to your engine.
Better still, a knowledgable mechanic can modify a standard Diesel engine so that it runs on straight vegetable oil, no chemistry required, just as Rudolf Diesel intended his creation to work.
By the way, those of you living here in the specacular Rocky Mountain region might want to drop in at the Sustainable Living Fair in Ft. Collins, CO this weekend (09/12-09/13). Josh Tickell will be there to give hands-on demonstrations of making biodiesel; you can also see cars and vans that run on hydrogen in the form of compressed gas cylinders and fuel cells.
Whatever,
My wife was rearended in her camry by a cherokee, which had been rear ended by an explorer.
Explorer, had to be towed.
Cherokee, accordian.
Camry, barely a scratch on the bumper.
SUV 0, Japanese Sedan 2
How about a bike. Faster than walking and we already have the infrastructure to get you anywhere you want to go. Once you've biked 200+ miles in a single day you'll start to believe in the bicycle as an alternative form of transportation.
"Technology.....the knack of so arranging the world that we don't have to experience it." Max Firsch
You know, it's kind of hard to fit a kayak in a compact HEV. Or, for that matter, a tree, a bunch of sheet-rock, or a mountain bike or motorcycle. That's what pickup trucks are good for. I've never been a big fan of the SUV, but I can understand why you'd want something that size.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
After driving nothing but mid-sized trucks that on a good day get 15/mpg I decided to start looking into something more fuel efficient. What I quicly discovered is that all of the smaller more fuel efficient vehicles don't have room for me. I'm 6'3" and not skinny when I sat in an Accent/Prius/Civic/Prizm/etc... I simply don't have leg room, especially not for a stick shift. I would like to see a roomier hybrid/low mpg vehicle come out. I think what i'm leaning towards is a 5-speed gas powered jetta (for cost reasons the TDI is too much and too unavailable used). Yet even this is almost too small for me, what I would like is an impala/taurus sized car that could get me 30-35 mpg city. Sadly nothing seems to even come close to this.
I know alot of people are hung up on a new car and completely ignore the used car market but I bought a regular gas burning used Ford Aspire with 45k miles for $3K. I now have 100K miles on it and have done nothing but routine maintenance. I average about 40-43MPG on mixed highway/city driving. I know others that have new hybrids and they average 40-48MPG so I am on par with them. I have other vehicles also so I do not use my econobox or a hybrid a primary vehicle. Since the initial cost is MUCH lower and the gas is roughly the same which makes it cost effective and cheap to fill.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
Trunk space? ... Plenty of space for normal people.
And with the 500 miles off of a single tank of gas, there is no credit card trail at gas stations on the way to drop off the body. Efficient and practical.
I have a honda insight. It is much better than just a geeky toy. I really love it. I've put about 30,000 miles on it in the year I've had it. Over that time, I've gotten a lifetime average of 62MPG.
The car is really well designed for what it is. It is a 2 person car that can carry a surprising amount of baggage as long as it isn't too heavy. It gets its fuel efficiency from having a very small engine. A small engine would normally have very bad acceleration but the electric motor provides the needed torque and so it is well matched for general driving.
It is not a sports car and doesn't really have the feel of driving something with lots of muscle but it doesn't poke around either. If you try you can out accelerate almost anything out of a redlight up until the point where the RPM gets up there on other car, at least 25MPH if not more. I've also had it up to 105MPH on a long straight highway near flagstaff so it does have an OK high end. The cornering and handling are surprisingly good. It has a very good suspension system for handling but as is often the case this is a tradeoff for smooth ride. It does tend to be a stiff ride.
The one place where it doesn't do really well is in passing traffic at highway speed. If you are already going 75 and you want to pass someone, the acceleration from 75 to say 85 is not that great. Also at fast highway speeds the ride can be a bit loud and rough. However, if you are just keeping a constant speed it will sip fuel while going 75 MPH.
As for long trips. I've found that it works rather well as long as it is just one person or you and your companion don't carry too much stuff. One thing I found amusing about the insight is that it has more range than I do. My previous car forced you to stop every 260 miles to get gas. This worked out nicely for food and a pee break. However, the insight with the 60+ MPG and the 10.6 gallon tank can drive for around 8 hours without refuelling. That was much more than I could take.
One thing that I didn't like about the insight on a long trip is the batteries are right behind the seats and so the seats can only recline about 20 degrees past vertical. This is not the best sleeping configuration. My old car allowed me recline almost the whole way.
As for city driving, the insight doesn't seem to be as well suited for it as the Toyota Prius. OTOH the Prius doesn't do as well on the highway. You can get really good gas milage in the city but it requires a substantial amount of practice and a bit of a change in your driving habits. It is a finesse thing. You have to know how to work with the car to figure out how to minimize its gas usage.
The insight really can't be used to haul kids. There is no back seat and there is no way to disable the passenger side airbag.
Overall, I think the Honda engineers did a really good job with the Insight. They made the tradeoffs between capability and efficiency in really good places. The car doesn't have many issues.
Trunk space? you couldn't even the tell battery pack was there if it wasn't pointed out to you. Plenty of space for normal people.
t tp://www.choppingblock.org/d/20030430.html
Nice feature for your typical serial killer.
http://www.choppingblock.org/d/20030702.html
h
char *mySig;
Whatever about the mileage improvements of a gasoline-electric vehicle, many posters have already pointed out that current clean-burning modern diesel cars already get 50-70 mpg. All the major manufacturers (yes even the American ones, though of course the Europeans are ahead in diesel technology) are bringing out diesel-electric hybrids over the next few years. This innovation should add around 50% to the mileage of typical diesel cars. Within 10 years we will see 100mpg diesel-electric hybrids.
Da Blog
What I'm looking forward to is the phase-in of ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD) fuel like what is used in Europe. That will enable companies to import even more advanced common-rail diesel vehicles to the U.S. VW will be able to bring in their high-performance VW GTI diesel. BMW will be able to bring in their high-performance diesels. So will Mercedes.
MB is bringing the E-class diesel back for 2004, though not in the 50-state-car-only states, among which are CA, NY and CT (which I would bet is 60-70% of their US market). I believe it has the common-rail motor, though it may not have the emissions controls that low sulfur diesel permits.
Here's hoping Ah-nuld puts forth an initiative to mandate biodiesel availability and permit new biodiesel-capable passenger cars to be registered..
If you are considering a hybrid vehicle, there are two words you need to examine closely before going through with it:
repair costs
I believe a better set of words is "psychiatric examination".
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Here is a picture of my 72 Prix backing in to my parking spot at work.
Last year my mother bought the Toyota Prius, as a former poor high school student and current poor college student, I freely admit that I have never owned my own car and usually take either the Prius or Camry to or from school or wherever else it is that I want to go.
My experience with teh Prius was a positive one, though it is a little small and the pickup leaves a little to be desired, it gets over 52 miles to the Gallon. This car is usually driven on highways, but usually once a week it goes into the great city of Boston (which usually causes the mileage of lesser cars to plunge into the red). It is a pleasing vehicle especially for people more concerned with important things (such as fuel economy, environmental impact), slightly less important things (touch panel display, electrical engines, comfortable seats and a spoiler, because even with the batteris it's too light in the back), over stupid things (like how much you need to compensate, how far over the speed limit you can go, how quickly you can die from going far over the speed limit).
I haven't really seen much of the other hybrids, but I suppose they're pretty much the same (at least the Japanese and European ones). Plus, you can pass of being sensitive and environmentally concious (not to mention confident, caring, and a guy with some extra money in his pocket because of the $ saved on gas), and the chicks love it.
Except for teenage girls, so really I'm just making it up. THen again, I might just not be any good at picking up women, even with such a babe magnet. Anyhow, if they're worth getting to know, they'll love Hybrid cars.
Allow me compare the pickup of my 2001 Toyota Prius to my two previous cars: My Prius is considerably zippier than my 1998 Honda Civic, but my 1996 Infiniti G20 was considerably zippier than my Prius.
I can't speak for other the other hybrid cars out there, but the Prius has enough pickup for all but the heaviest of leadfoots. (leadfeet?) And it handles quite well, too.
Frankly, I wish my other car were more like my hybrid. My lowly PT Cruiser accelerates more slowly, gets fewer than half as many miles per gallon, and it keeps its gasoline engine running during red lights and gridlock (which surprisingly I'm beginning to lose tolerance for).
And actually, the Cruiser doesn't hold much more than the Prius does. I haven't seen one yet, but I won't be surprised if the bigger-and-better 2004 Prius (due next month) bests it.
I really need a car that can hold me, my spouse, my kid's car seat, a friend, and a baritone saxophone. The 2001 Prius and the Cruiser fail at this, as presumably the 2004 Prius will.
I like hybrids well enough that I'm trying to hold out for one. Perhaps the rumored 2005 hybrid Toyota Sienna. Or maybe the 2004 hybrid Ford Escape, though I'm not fond of its body style.
You write your nine symphonies, then you die.
Are we ignoring it because it's small? How small?
-Dave
I'm not sure I could get my wife to agree to a hybred anyway, but I have one big question that I've never heard the answer to.
How does it perform in snow?
Being in the snow belt, it would make little sense to buy a car which can only be used 8 months out of the year.
I don't see things in black and white; I see the gray. Heck, I actually see in color, which makes things more difficult
The Insight does not look much like a CRX at all. It's too narrow, too tall, and ends up looking too long, though it's probably not any longer, or at least not much longer. The CRX is pretty damned short. I think it looks more like a CRX than the Del Sol which is the CRX's supposed descendant, but they don't really have much in common besides that flat back window under the hatch window which serves primarily to reduce crashworthiness and increase cost, though I know the IDEA is to provide more cargo carrying capacity without decreasing visibility.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Hmmph. Zero or zero not. There is no partial.
Visit me on the web at Permanent4.com.
Maybe it's just that people who drive hybrids also don't like to speed? Why don't you actualy test-drive one?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I disagree -- the aftermarket support it has is pretty good. I've installed a number of these kits and been very happy with them.
That said, the Prius is pretty self-consciously a hybrid car, trying to establish a unique, "high-tech" look; the Civic Hybrid does a good job of not calling attention to itself. Your choice.
You can also get CNG conversions for many other cars, vans and trucks.
The equivalent in km/l is left as an exercise for the interested reader.
Stick Men
Way to pick & choose your numbers, Syberghost.
Your actual science puts the lie to your accusation of 'hype':
Chevy S10 Blazer 4dr: 195 - 102 from rollover!
Jeep Gr Cherokee 4dr: 78 - 36 roll
Ford Explorer 2dr: 231 - 102 roll
Ford Explorer 4dr: 103 - 49 roll
Isuzu Rodeo 4dr: 151 - 99 roll
Mazda MX-5 Miata: 59 - 5 roll
By your logic, the Miata should be an undertaker's dream yet it handily beats out all the major SUVs. As do many other average sized cars.
Let's not forget that in this country many people have their identity strangly twisted up with the car that they drive, so if more people have dies in Hyundai Accents maybe it's not just because of the car's intrinsic safety. Maybe the kind of person that buys that model is a poor driver (these are insurance stats after all.)
Suprisingly, I notice little difference in the acceleration capabilities of my hybrid. It picks up and goes when I ask it to - and with the CVT, it goes smoothly as well.
I love the looks people give me when I come to a stop and my engine shuts off. It can be kinda annoying on those hot summer days, but that's what the econ button is for - you can tell it not to shut the engine off.
According to the sticker, I get 51 mpg, according to me, I get about 52 on the highway and about 46 in the city - Washington, DC park and go traffic. It takes some getting used to when you first start driving it to maximize your mpg, things like knowing when the auto-stop triggers, not inching up in traffic, and going the speed limit helps a lot. Not that it can't go over the speed limit and accelerate quickly. I've had it up to 120 - when the governor kicks in. I haven't timed myself in a 0-60 sprint because that's just damn impossible in the city.
I test drove a Toyota Prius before I made my final decision, and I found it small and that damn TV screen annoying - I found that my eyes didn't want to stay on the road. The Prius does have more color options than the Civic, and the Civic doesn't have a sunroof, but other than that, I love my civic.
Last advice: if you're worried about the "pick-up-and-go", get off your butt and test drive one - you'll find that it has plenty of power for getting you around. It's not going to win any drag races, but it'll keep you happy.
Your choice: Corvette 29 mpg, Honda Civic 40-50 mpg. I'd rather spend the extra $10 a month on gas, but that's just me.
One thing I wonder about with hybrids is, what happens when you're going up a long hill? My guess is that the engine will use both gas power and electrical power until it's nearly exhausted the battery and has to revert to gas power only. If that is the case, I'd expect the car to slow down once the electric motor's contribution dropped out, or for passing to become a lot more difficult. What have people experienced there? Is my guess correct, or is the system smart enough to avoid that situation (say, by using electric motor for no more than a few seconds at a time, only as supplementation to the gas engine -- in effect saving it for starting and passing)?
I don't need a new car right now, but I'm annoyed that something like this is beckoning.
There's an '04 Prius link (flash stuff with some specs) in the lower left of Toyota.com
I've had my Prius for 16 months and 30,000 miles. I get, on average, 46.7 miles per gallon. Love that car.
Volkswagon lately has a reputation for poor quality. All the car survey sites I've read have backed this up, and consumer reports lists several of their cars on the "do no buy" list. It's pretty sad that VW makes crappy cars these days, they used to be great quality. Maybe the diesel VWs are the exception, but I'd personally stear clear of VW for the time being.
AccountKiller
Oh yeah, and this:
"Biodiesel can be used in cars, light and heavy trucks, with few or no modifications. Studies show that a 20% blend can be burned in any diesel engine with no modifications at all. At a higher concentration, the more aggressive solvents in biodiesel may degrade certain rubber parts. Biodiesel experts recommend replacing certain hoses, for example with products that resist degradation.
Because biodiesel is a better solvent than petroleum, it is likely to dissolve crud that's been accumulating in the fuel tank. As a result, the fuel filter will probably need to be changed shortly after making the switch."
My commute to work IS a highway trip. Plus, kinda difficult to use a bike for transporting computer equip. And, I don't want to be stranded like everyone else when we get our few feet of snow.
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Chevy S10 Blazer 4dr: 195 - 102 from rollover!
WTF do small pickup trucks have to do with it? Those things are the MOST deadly vehicles on the road.
Most people consider buying a hybrid to help the environment, but wouldn't it be better overall to just buy a used car and run it into the ground? Granted they burn a lot more fossil fuels, but isn't the process of building and the materials used in a brand new car, hybrid/electric/or not, a bigger stress to the environment?
It seems like it would be, though a friend of mine feels that doing so just delays the likelihood that we'll get hybrids/electrics on the market, because the demand would stay too low if the above approach was used frequently...
Thoughts?
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi
This article will change your mind a little about these hybrids:
2004 Toyota Prius
Notes:
1. Average *combined* city/highway mpg is 55!
2. 0-60 in 10s! Not bad at all.
On the subject of Hybrid vehicles (and secondary slightly off-topic of SUVs), Lexus is planning on releasing a hybrid RX330 next year.
That seems like a perfect solution for all of the yuppy quasi-SUV drivers that want it all:
- good looking vehicles
- good milage
- lots of room
- environmentally friendly
And an 'F' for thinking that the outlet would be wired with the voltage or current a electric car charging system might need.
This isn't any ordinary darkness. It's advanced darkness.
My wife was rearended in her camry by a cherokee, which had been rear ended by an explorer.
Right; the two vehicles involved in the accident got damaged severely. Your wife's car, which got bumped after most of the energy was spent, got scratched.
This proves what?
If you roll your SUV, you f*#@ed up. Plain and simple. Are they more likely to roll? Yes. Higher center of gravity dictates that. Driving them isn't hard, it's just a matter of realizing the forces that affect such a vehicle and handling it appropriately.
I'm gettin a little late in the game (already over 500 posts), so this'll probably never see the light of day, but...
Have you considered checking into other alternative fuels such as E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) or biodiesel (comes in different ratios, but B100 is available, which is 100% vegetable oil derived fuel)? Cars that run these fuels are in some senses superior to hybrid, in that you reduce dependance on the oil industry to an even greater degree. In some areas gas stations have biodiesel, roughly the same price as gas, better mileage, and far better for the ecosystem.
More here
Maybe partying will help...
perhaps the reduced emissions are worth more to the purchaser than the extra cost in money. It was one of the primary reasons I bought mine.
Stay away from the automatics. The standard transmission models are awesome. I have not had any problems with power. It was obvious after I bought the car, that Honda is selling those at a loss. The technology and innovation put into this car would bring the actual sticker above 60 grand if sold at the same ratio as other cars. They are going to be discontinued, but if you get a long warranty and you should have nothing to worry about. My warranty will take me to 150,000 miles and my battery to 8 years. That seems reasonable for me. I do a lot of city driving so my average MPG is only around 50, but on trips I have gotton as high as 70 mpg. See http://www.insightcentral.com for others. Good luck.
Flexible bare-metal recovery for Linux/UNIX
Not to mention it can fit between traffic in a jam,
:)
Too bad this is illegal in Oregon
I love that car. No really. I do.
It drives VERY well, and believe it or not, but despite the crapy 155hp (2000 model) it's great in the city/suburbs. AWD helps the amazing 0-40 pick up and grip on snow/rain whatever. (You WILL waste Audi TTs, BMW 300s in a 0-40 drag, they'll waste you at 40+ and highways)
It kinda sucks on the highways, it has a very tough time going 80+ and will cap at about 115 or so. So accelerating from 60 on and passing cars can be tough, still it's not bad.
I love it just because there is so much I can do with it, I used to pick up my friends to lan parties, try stuffing 3 21" monitors into any other car, CR-V - no problem.
Still the best part is AWD, it really helps in bad weather, plus being a fairly light car the breaking distance is great.
I can't say much about the gas milage, I drive cars fairly hard so I hardly ever have good results on anything.
Nevermind the whole honda reliability thing. 30k miles and NOTHING. I mean nothing. Everything works like if it were a brand new car.
In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
It's a fuel efficient penis extension...
At the age of 18 I got a GS850. Rode it 4 years, over 100k miles, until mechanical failure caused me to total it (walked away). There were a great many times where the manuverablity and small size of the bike allowed me to avoid accidents; had I been in a car I'd have at least 2, maybe 3 accidents on my driving record. Of course, I had to do my part; no daydreaming off in la-la land, pay attention or die. That applies to cars too of course. This was all in Los Angeles and San Diego, very heavy traffic, and obviously lots of riding. And a punk kid who knew everything. ;-)
ehintz
You will be much happier.
If you are concerned about being 'earth friendly' fill it with NG instead..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If you need to floor it in a hybrid to get out of trouble* you're fucked. Otherwise they are a small, generic, expencive car with good gas milage. If you're buying one to be a tree hugger, you're an idiot because modern cars hardly polute either.
*For those who don't live in a major city, this happens more often than you'd think.
Indeed, the VW TDI is a great high-mileage alternative. It's not quite as clean and green as the hybrids, but it has one big advantage -- torque. In fact, it compares favorably to most other small cars in this respect. It may not have their acceleration, but it can motor over most highway grades in top gear, at low RPM, with a full load and the AC on. This makes it easier and less tiring to drive on long trips. And yes, the mileage is superb. The Jetta gets 50 MPG or so on the highway.
Yes, Civic Hybrids are fairly expensive vehicles for what you get. It's a matter of weighing the appropriate price-performance ratio.
It should be interesting to note that while Honda sells these for about 20,000$, Honda manufactures them at 30,000$ (according to a salesperson at Herson's Honda in Rockville, MD).
So while it's good that we're supporting hybrid technology and trying to encourage auto manufacturers, they may not move forward as quickly as we'd like. Perhaps with increased popularity, they'll produce a higher volume and refine the manufacturing process? Who knows.
Unfortunately, according to the same salesperson, Honda is interested in selling these vehicles so they can reduce the average vehicle emmissions of all cars they sell. This allows them to legally sell more SUVs and other gas guzzlers (hence they are willing to make a 10,000$ write-off on every Civic Hybrid). Nothing for free it seems. What a lousy trade-off.
Join Tor today!
I drive alone all the time, my commute is 90 mile round-trip. I own an '01 triumph, I get ~45mpg, and the vehicle cost about $8k. Less fuel usage, easier on the roads, quicker in traffic, and if I can't see around an SUV, I just pass them.
A friend of mine said tires have been a problem on his Prius. I did a quick web search and came up with this and this. It's not a show-stopper, but it is something you want to be aware of.
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die...
Something interesting (to me) is that they get BETTER milage in the city than on the highway. Look at the two popular ones... it looks like a typo when they say something like 45 city/39 highway.
My belief of why:
The recovery of power when braking in the city combined with the engine idle not being wasted at stoplights (gets converted to stored power)
versus
the squared function of air resistance in highway driving (as speed doubles, the air resistance quadruples).
my family had one for a six month test drive it had a cool screen showing the miles per gallon in real time, it had the best mileage of any car we had, and the new ones are even better, blue-tooth enabled
i am the self-proclaimed king of free stuff
I bought a new civic in 2002. I didn't buy the Hybrid, even though I really wanted to. Here's why. 1: Battery needs to be replaced roughly at the 100K mile mark. At the time I was looking, they said that was on the order of a $1500-$2000 service. 2: Sticker price of the car is roughly $4000 more than that of a normal "LX" model. 3: I really hated the interior color. This is a real trivial thing, but... I really just didn't like the beige and brown thing. 4: It was a brand new first-year model, and I generally don't buy first-years, especially on drastic technology changes. When the '04s come out very soon (if not already) then this one is solved. That said, there were some benefits: 1: A $2000 tax credit (in CA) which wouldn't have affected me much, because as a semi-poor college student, I didn't pay $2000 in taxes... 2: I figured an estimated savings of $2500-$3000 over the life of the battery (given my driving) 3: A few little bonuses are included in the car, such as climate control, which I think is really spiffy. 4: It's a hybrid. Awesome geek toy 5: Gives me even more reason to mock all the SUV drivers out there. In the end, I decided that, over the life of the battery (I'd probably sell the car at the 100k mark rather than fix it) I'd save about $3000-$4000 and spend about $4000 extra NOW for the privelage. If the following 3 things were true, I'd have bought it: 1: I paid enough taxes that I could really benefit from the $2000 tax credit 2: The interior/exterior were available in some better colors. 3: It wasn't the very first model year. If only two of these were true, I might still have done it. But none were, so I didn't.
However, the poster commented that, as with laptops, these batteries are unlikely to last more than a couple of years, and will then have to be replaced by the owner, at the unsubsidized replacement cost.
Is this true? Anyone care to comment on the battery issue? Again, it was a while ago, so my memory may be faulty, or the original poster may have been full of shit, which is why I'm asking. This post is meant merely as a question, not as anti-hybrid FUD.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I test drove all three (Civic, Prius, TDI) but chose a Golf TDI because it was less expensive than either the Civic Hybrid or Prius, and VW's ergonomics are far better than the Civic and Prius (the new Prius is going to be a far better experience than the initial version). Plus, with VW cars you can get the Monsoon sound upgrade for a nominal fee (8-amp, 8-speaker CD/Tape/FM/AM) in all models. The Golf TDI comes in two flavors (GL, GLS) and the Jetta TDI comes in both sedan and station wagon, also in GL and GLS trim. That's right, a real, honest to God station wagon that isn't half bad and can really haul a decent load.
The TDI will gladly haul you at over 100 MPH if need be, and I typically get 43 MPG driving in D/FW traffic well above the posted limits and/or in horrendous sprawl-induced jams. Stick with the five-speed unless you simply cannot drive a standard ... the extra mileage will make you smile. I usually drive 560 miles between fillups, and I often have a gallon or more left in the tank at that point (VW's ad claims 750 miles between fillups ... that's possible if you drive 65 MPH and hit no traffic on Interstates).
P.S. The typical diesel gas pump is a filthy mess unless you buy diesel at the pricier pay-at-the-pump stations that actually offer it (usually there are only one or two diesel pumps). Truck stops have the best prices ... usually ten to twenty cents per gallon below the national brand stations, but they're really nasty to fill up at (and no one in an eighteen wheeler, let alone a "dually" pickup, can see your TDI).
The two most common things in the Universe are dark matter and stupidity.
"Currently. Ford, Dodge and Volkswagen all void warranties if biodiesel is used. Volkswagen, however, sells a "biodiesel kit" that includes a few modifications suggested if biodiesel is used.
They can't "void" warranties unless they can show that the use of biodiesel caused the failure. It's simply not legal. That's what prevents car companies from refusing warranty repairs on your car because you used a Fram air filter rather than one made by the manufacturer.
Want to see how forgiving the diesel engines are? Here's a link to people who are powering VW diesels from used vegetable oil that restaurants throw out.
Battery life in the hybrids was originally designed to be 80,000 miles, but in practice they're doing at least 50% better than that. It's true, the replacement cost *as quoted by the dealer* is very high -- like $2000 -- but that will come down drastically as time goes on. First of all, all car parts get cheaper as the cars get older. Second, a key point of the hybrid system is that it allows commodity battery technology to be used. In this case, they're a whole bunch of standard, "D" sized NiMH flashlight-type cells, chained together in a big battery pack. So there will undoubtedly be aftermarket replacements available, as well as being serviceable by DIY'ers. I reckon the cost will drop to below $500.
In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service. However, in the states we get a nice $3k (I think that's the right figure) tax exemption which means you're in the black after only the second year of ownership.
Here in the DC metro area, you can ride carpool lanes with a single occupant in a hybrid. There's no telling how long this will last. I suspect that eventually too many people will buy their way into the carpool lanes, but in the meantime the savings in time alone are worth it. Even without that advantage though I'd buy it. In this area we spend way too much time going
Any hybrid drivers in the DC area care to comment? How much time does it spend as a pure electric during a stop-n-go commute?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I've been looking at making the same decision. I looked at it from a leasing point of view and the technical specifications. Comparing a Civic Hybrid with a regular Civic, you will save on the gas consumed, so it is better for the environment. However, when comparing the total cost of gas and the monthly lease payments of a Civic Hybrid and a similarly equiped Civic, the regular Civic is $200 a month cheaper. (That's Canadian dollars mind you). I like the environment, but I have a budget to keep too. So I'm trading in my Explorer Sport for a regular Civic, which will still consume a lot less gas.
--
Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.
I'm curious: What's the environmental impact of manufacturing a new car? I imagine it must be significant -- making or recycling steel and aluminum, emitting toxic chemicals, and so on.
If I buy a brand-new Prius or Insight (that would need to be manufactured for me out of raw materials), will my actions have less impact on the environment than if I bought a late-model, used, conventional-engine vehicle (that is already a sunk cost in terms of manufacturing)?
Or might it actually be worse for the environment?
Likewise, New York has an $2,000 alternative fuels tax credit for vehicles, but you can't claim more than you pay in state income tax in any year. (You can, however, rollover the credit to future years.)
I'll be getting everything I paid to NY back this year, and then a little bit more next year.
(Oh yeah, New York also exempts $3,000 of the price of hybrid cars from sales tax. A savings of roughly $247.50)
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
My wife and I drive a Honda Insight manual. We've had the car for 13k+ miles. Our lifetime economy average is just over 63 mpg. It's common to pull into the driveway after a two hour roundtrip on the highway having completed the trip at 75mpg or more. ( my record is 86mpg for 54 miles ) The insight is a VERY spacious two seater hatchback, ie two people and lots of stuff. With ten gallon tank, it's common to go 3-4 weeks without visiting a gas station! The car will hit over 100mph if you want to drive fast. And it's very hard to go below 50mpg even which going 80-85mph. Unlike all the other hybrids the Insight is built out of aluminum with attention paid to details like aerodynamics. In other words it's not just another sedan with a hybrid power plant. The car has been 100% reliable so far; not a fault. I can recommend highly!
Hybrid vehicles fit a very specific market. If you can live with the car that's built around the hybrid powerplant then you should be fine. There are definitely better cars out there for other specific markets. Example, the Honda insight is really small. The Toyota Prius is really ugly. The new Mazda Rx-8 is pretty much a pure sports car but has 4 seats and decent room (an no hybrid powerplant, pure rotary baby!) What appeals to you?
If you're OK with being an early adopter in general, then you should have no problem with the hybrid powerplants. There's been no major recalls, no major fires or explosions, no major maintenance costs, etc. etc.
--Darren
Hey, we didn't found the hell out of Iraq twice for nothing. Now we reap the rewards. ;)
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Aw crap. I forgot to escape <. Make that "way too much time going... less than 25 mph in stop-n-go traffic". I hope this makes sense now.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Look into the tax breaks being offered to hybrid drivers. I think the IRS is offering a $2000 deduction or something like that. Similar breaks are being offered in Canada. This should help offset the higher cost of the vehicle (the difference in fuel cost might not quite do it).
A hybrid Civic that gets into a minor city-street collision with a minivan or SUV is probably going to be so expensive to repair, that the insurance company will want to total it out.
A Honda Civic Hybrid that gets into a "minor" collision is going to use the exact same parts to repair as a non-hybrid Civic!!! Meaning there is less chance of it getting totaled, because it cost more!!! The only non standard parts are the engine, batteries, and dashboard. The batteries are in the safest place in the car -- behind the rear seat. If your batteries and dashboard are destroyed, you've got bigger problems then replacing your car -- you're most likely dead. "Minor" collisions rarely require replacing engines; if you're in a collision that requires a new engine, your car is probably totalled regardless of whether or not it is a hybrid!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Ford Explorer 4dr: 103 - 49 roll
Nice editing job there, replacing the "56" with a "103" and the "26" with a "49".
You did similar shit on the other numbers.
Interestingly, you left the Miata numbers as they were reported. I find this interesting because it clearly shows more Miata owners die than Explorer 4-door owners.
The US Department of Energy's comparison of different cars.
They've sold on the order of 100,000 Civic Hybrids. If they lost $10,000 per car, they'd have lost $1,000,000,000.
I'm pretty sure Honda doesn't have a billion dollars to burn just to up their mileage rating and let them sell more SUV's.
Your information is decades out of date.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Ask yourself what you want the car for? Why are you willing to pay extra for the hybrid?
:)
I'm guessing your answers will be something like:
A) Economics
B) The Environment
C) Geek Love of Tech
If you are mostly thinking A then you should look at other options. If you are motivated by B or C then the hybrid is for you.
I have had a Honda Insight for about 3 years and I love it. It handles fine in traffic and on the highway. As several posters point out, the economics of getting a hybrid are questionable -- but the mpg savings definitely make the higher service costs and more rapid depreciation less painful. They also lead to a satisfying sense of superiority as prices rise towards 2$/gal.
The turning point for me was a sense of frustration about society's general disregard for the environment. I guess I wanted to make a statement -- I beleve it's better to drive a hybrid than to just slap a 'tree hugger' sticker on the back bumper of an SUV.
Also -- I bought my car for commuting (I used to spend 8-10 hours a week in the car). My wife has a slightly larger car which we use whenever we need to haul anything or anyone.
Best of luck in your decision!
You're kidding me right. On one side, we have geeks throwing money left and right on trying to get the fastest and newest computer hardware and software out there. And now we're talking about "energy conservation"? Maybe sometime far down in the future, when car companies can actually get "hybrid" and "power" in the same line, will it sell. MPG is nice. Some students seem to love it. Probably many people who believe cars are just a mode of transportation to get from A to B also think "MPG" is nice. Hey, maybe even Slashdotters might believe a higher "MPG" count will make you 1337er than the next /.er
Forget SUV's.
Horsepower sells. Car magazines love horsepower. Car nuts love horsepower.
If we choose to decide to compare computers to cars, which you people seem to do so often, then we'd put power consumption of PC's, servers, and etc. mainly ahead of power.
So hey. Buy a hybrid, and throw away that computer there with a 300W PSU.
I'm sure if they work hard at it... we might actually see an energy efficient car with "more than enough" horsepower sometime soon.
Yep, soon like in 10 - 20 years.
Loved my insight, got 58MPG lifetime, 70 on the highway.
I don't the tech is baked enough to make me do it again though. It was horridly uncomfortable and loud on long road trips. Would be great for just running errands though.
A point worth noting - Mine cost 19grand, and just traded in at 8,000 (right on its book). If I had bought a comparably priced Civic at the same time, and just traded it in with the same miles, I would have gotten 12,000.
There is NO resale market for them. NONE.
Not to put you off buying a new Honda -- they're a great company -- but for overall economy, you may do just as well to find a used HF.
I recently came back from Africa on the equator where it is possible to run your house on solar power. Has anyone heard of hybrid makers combining solar power also to help recharge the battery, and not just the regenerative breaking.
Euphemism, what is that a euphemism for something.
It's about discharge power. One of the real challenges in battery selection is the total power they can output, which is dependent on the battery architectures. This is why you need different batteries for "high-drain" devices like camera flashes than you do for, say, a walkman. For acceleration, you need the drain as high as possible, and at some point it tops out.
It's hard, given all the engineering considerations, to make a battery that drains as fast (ie, Watts) as a typical gasoline engine.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Not everyone lives in an area where all the roads are paved.
(For that matter, paving roads with asphalt produces plenty of pollution, too.)
_1_ - .31Cd for the newer, more aerodynamic 240sx...
.34 or .35 Cd for the 1997 model.
.30 Cd for the 1991 240SX SE
.29 Cd for 2003 350Z Track Model!
.26 Cd?
_2_ -
_3_ -
_4_ -
So now, you still claim your old 240sx has
I think there's some emotional attachment here...
.sigs are for post^Hers.
> Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy?
A female friend used one to shop and run errands while vacationing in California. She described is as a "man magnet", much the same as my cute dog is a babe magnet. Perhaps that's a consideration for you.
A cross country 18 wheeler gets 7 mpg or better driving on the freeway. (Local 18 wheelers are geared different and do worse) Some SUVs barely beat that, and the 18 wheeler is hauling at least 3 times as much mass.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Numbers please. And how were those stats compiled?
And the idea that an Economy car is "undersized" is absolutly silly
As someone who has had to deal with undersized cars his whole life, that comments seems very narrow minded. I'm 6'7, and I have very long legs, there is no way I'm fitting behind the wheel of the average econobox. I've tried.
Frankly in the long run its cheaper and safer for EVERYONE to drive an economy car, and rent a larger vehicle when you NEED one. You know that MAYBE once a year or every two years that you might move, or maybe that weekend or two you actually go camping.
That's the times that *you* need a bigger vehicle. For others it's more convenient and comfortable to have a large car as their primary vehicle.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
I recently purchased a gas 5-speed Honda Civic. I really wanted to buy the H-EV but it came at a $6,000 premium over gas. In the gas Civic I get 42 MPG. Lets assume in the H-EV I could get 63 MPG (thats 1.5x). Where I live gas is about $1.60/gal, so I'm looking at 3.8 cents/mile with gas and 2.5 cents/mile with the H-EV. That's only a savings of 1.3 cents/mile.
With only 1.3 cents/mile it would take over 460,000 miles to recoup my initial $6,000 outlay. I drive about 50,000 miles per year so that's 9+ years. I know Honda's are great cars and they last a long time but 9+ years for a break even was not acceptable for me.
Now you might save some money on maintenance, but most of these maintenance savings are speculative. We know how long a gas car can last because we've ben driving them for decades. However, the H-EV's have not been strongly road tested with thousands of drivers driving mass produced vehicles. However, if one wants to calculate the maintenance savings in to their TCO analysis then also you must calculated interest on that $6,000 premium over the term of your car loan.
As I metioned at the beginning of my comment, I bought the gas vehicle. I have still not disposed of the mini-van that my Honda Civic replaced. I think I can convert it to pure electric for about $5,000. But I won't be doing this for financial reasons this is purely for cool/geek reasons. I want to install a high end gaming PC so that people in the back seat can play games while riding and make it a mobile party van.
Have had it for a year, and learned a lot about them.
There are three hybrids being sold right now:
- Honda Civic Hybrid
- Honda Insight
- (2003) Toyota Prius
The Hondas use a gas engine as their primary engine with an electric engine (which doubles as a generator during braking) as a secondary source of acceleration. Think of this arrangement as a gas engine with a massive-battery-powered electric supercharger. If the electric engine fails, the gas engine will still get you there -- it just accelerates slower.
The Prius is the other way around -- its primary engine is electric, and a secondary gas engine gives it the acceleration. In the Prius, it is possible to drive (with very little gas pedal pressure) on electric alone -- something the Prius owners call "Zen driving." If the gas engine fails, you can still drive on the electric.
Reliability:
I know people who own both a Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH) and a 2003 Prius. I personally own the HCH. I would have no hesitation in buying one again. I average 54 MPG in the summer, and 45 MPG in the winter. Range is ~600 miles per tank; I drive 50 miles a day, and fill up twice a month. I have heard that it is possible to get ~700 miles/tank in a Prius, but have never got a first hand report of that.
The Honda had one early bug with deep, cold weather -- very occasionally, the electric system would shut down and not restart until the car was shut down and restarted. A flash of the computer firmware fixed it. Many people reported this problem. It also had an issue with a squeak in a support pillar, fixed by shimming with a business card. Maintenance visits are scheduled for every 10000 miles. Gas mileage is better on the highway (51 mpg) than the city (49 mpg).
The 2003 Prius has had more problems. Issues were with "highway wandering" -- it feels like the car wants to migrate around the road -- and shaking of the steering wheel at low speeds. Cause: the entire power steering rack needed to be replaced. There's also the gas engine failure called the "Big Hand" that's fixed with a similar car reboot, but it's caused by the Accelerator Pedal Assembly needing to be replaced. Many people report that they've had both of these problems. Maintenance is more frequent at 7,500 miles. Gas mileage is better in the city (51 mpg) than the highway (49 mpg).
I don't know anyone who drives a Honda Insight. Supposedly they still make ~1500 of them a year, but rumor has it that Honda is going to be dropping them.
Near-term and Farther-out Models:
The Prius has been out longer than the HCH, and is getting a technological refresh in 2004. The 2003 Prius and the HCH are both 4-seater compacts, but the 2004 Prius will be a mid-size, with better mileage (59 city, 51 highway) and better acceleration (0-60 in 10 instead of 12). There is currently a waiting list for them.
Cars/Trucks/SUVs due to be released as hybrids in 2004:
Honda Accord,
Honda CR-V,
Ford Escape
2004 or 2005:
Chevy Silverado
Saturn Vue
GMC Suburban
Here's an in-depth look at Hybrid technology from the Union of Concerned Scientists (Google HTML translation here).
Here's the best description of what it's like to drive one.
There is a federal tax deduction of $2000 for buying a new hybrid. Several states also offer their own tax deductions or credits -- check here to look them up. Some states (but not all) also let you drive them in their high occupancy lanes, even though you may only have one driver in it.
Oh, by the way -- I know that the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrids are
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
Ive seen it both ways.. but i was under the impression most were of the electric drive version... but ive been wrong before.
But since i wont own one if you paid me, ive not looked at what is on the road..
Ill keep my real car, thank you very much.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
1. Performance: it doesn't exist. Hybrid cars have little or no horses under the hood.
... it is produce by similar or worse processes
The 2004 prius goes from 0-60 in about 10 seconds, which is comparable to most 4 cylinder cars. They're making them more powerful now than they used to.
2. Safety: Typically hybrid cars must weigh under 2000 lbs to allow for the engine/motor to
overcome the mass of the vehicle. This being the case, in a collision with another vehicle... guess
who is not winning.
2004 Prius weighs about 2800 pounds. Should be just as safe as any other comparably sized car.
3. Environment: Well, I hate to burst your bubble but... guess where electicity comes from... burning fossil fuels!
It doesn't just magically come out of your wall
than the internal combustion engine.
That's true for fully electric cars, but with the hybrids the electricity comes from the gas engine in the car. You put gas in it and it goes, like any other car. It's just that you don't have to put quite so much gas into a hybrid.
In all seriousness, I think that Hydrogen cars / fuels cells are going to be the only real revolution in the automotive industry.
Where does the hydrogen come from? You don't just find it in the ground; you get it from water molecules. The process requires energy from... fossil fuels or whatever the power plant runs on.
Remember the days when Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility?
Pet Peeve #843287: SUV drivers that whine about the price of gas. You bought that overpriced penis extension, learn to live with the consequences.
It's those bastard spammers again! Sure, they tell you how big you'll get and how much you'll please your lover with your new size, but do they mention how much the extra weight hurts your fuel economy? Hell no!
Most comments here are overly-simplistic. Simpletons. Yes, most hybrids are based on the "rolling coffin" design. They are small vehicles. The problem with everybody driving small cars is that not everybody fits in a small car. Try fitting a family of 4 (let's say the guys in the family are 6'2" & 200+ lbs.) in a Prius. Doesn't work unless you like to eat your knees. SUV's roll over... actually, the shorter the SUV, the more apt it is to roll over. Me, I like my Suburban. Great for bigger people. Great for a family. Great for not rolling over.
The Hondas are better highway cars, while the Prius shines in the city. The Hondas are more conventional, and take less getting used to. The Prius probably gets better city mileage than the Hondas (which do better on the highway). The Prius runs out of oomph on long highway grades, and doesn't ride quite as well at highway speeds. However, it's roomy and comfortable inside, and very compact on the outside, so it's very easy to park. Of course, the Insight is a snap to park too, if you don't need the room, and it gets amazing mileage on the highway (I've seen over 70 MPG). They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Take your pick.
But my pick for a high-mileage car? A Jetta TDI... Great torque for easy HWY motoring in top gear, German road feel and dynamics, and better seats for tall people.
As a Canadian resident, I've always wondered if there's any performance problems for these types(hybrid and electric) in colder climates. As I live in a city (Winnipeg) where the thermometer regularily drops below -30 Celcius in the dead of winter I wouldn't want to be driving a car that couldn't run in those conditions. Does anybody have any information about this?
Polluting the Internet since 2003...
http://percep
Here in the Chicago suburbs, roads take a TREMENDOUS beating, in part due to the fact that this is a major trucking hub. The net weight of the vehicles is pretty high.
Side point: tire inflation pressure is one of the easiest ways to get "free mileage". Dealers have been notorious for selling cars (new and used) with under-inflated tires to make the ride nice and smooth, but at a sacrifice of mileage. For six months, my Insight couldn't beat 50MPG (sticker says 56/55 for the CVT model). Turns out that the tires were at 26 pounds all around. They're SUPPOSED to be at 38/35 (front/rear). Inflating the tires brought me up to the sticker mileage pretty quickly, and going a little higher (40/40) got me into the 60s easily enough.
I then checked the family Passat Wagon and it was five pounds low. Mother-in-law's Jeep was ten pounds low and tires were visibly rounded.
Next time you're behind a car on the road, look at the tires and see if they LOOK low. Often, the driver side of many SUVs is down a few pounds, and looks it.
I know that the Honda CRX was smaller than say, a Civic, but the CRX got 57mpg back around 1985. AND it was a relativley quick car.
http://www.welovehondas.com/crx.htm
"Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling...." - Abraham Simpson
About a year ago, an officemate of mine bought the Toyota Prius. He loves it and enjoys evangelizing about hybrid vehicles. After riding in his Prius, my wife and I decided to trade in her Toyota 4Runner for a hybrid. We did some reading on the net and test drove the 2003 Honda Civic hybrid. We bought it the same day.
It's remarkable how like a regular car the hybrid is. I was for some reason expecting the handling to be balky and the acceleration poor. Instead, I find that it handles very well and the pickup is quite impressive. The low-end torque from the electric motor is surprising; the first time I backed it out of our driveway I spun gravel all over the place! I didn't anticipate that I would enjoy driving the hybrid, but have been quite pleasantly surprised. It does not feel like the "granny car" I was expecting.
By putting the Civic in "Economy" mode, you allow it to shut the engine completely off whenever the car is at a dead stop. Lacking a separate starter motor, the restart when you let off the brake is virtually instantaneous. It feels unsettling to me to have the engine shut off like that, though, and in the summer, it's a drag because it turns the A/C off as well. For these reasons, I generally leave "Economy" mode off.
The milage is great; even with my lead foot, the A/C on, and the "Economy" setting turned off, I get about 43MPG. With "Economy" turned on and the A/C off, it gets more like 50MPG. Because of the way the hybrid engine works, you actually get slightly better milage in the city than you do on the interstate.
My only complaints - and they're pretty minor - are the trunk space and the styling. The trunk isn't tiny, but it isn't as large as I'd like on a family-type car. When we put the baby stroller in the trunk, there's scarcely room for anything else. As far as the styling, it's purely a matter of taste - my wife likes the look of the Civic. It's not sporty enough to suit me.
In all, we're extremely happy with our purchase. I'm looking forward to replacing my car with a fuel cell model a few years down the road.
Hey man, I totally agree, I said I have a jap cruiser. Cheaper, better. Harley people are different from the rest - they treat their bikes like priceless statues and keep them in their living room and wipe them with a diaper every day - and are afraid to put miles on them. Jap bikers ride cheap bikes that last forever and ride them like there's no tomorrow without hesitation.
I'd love to OWN a Harley, but not for the money. I like to ride too much.
# Erik
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid and have already put 10k+ miles on it. It's an amazing vehicle. I get at least 40mpg (in Los Angeles on the surface streets). It has more power than my last car (toyota corolla). It's a little mushy off the line, but that's typically because the engine shuts off when you stop. Which is disturbing at first, but really cool once you get used to it.
In almost all respects, it's feels just like a car. The Prius feels different; it's cool but strange. The Civic has no real surprises.
The best thing about a Hybrid is that you are constantly watching your gas milage, and it becomes a game. And not supporting oil wars has its benefits as well.
I love the Civic Hybrind and highly recommend it!
She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
If you really care about the enviornment, do what this guy did - but take it one step further and have the car tuned for mileage. An aftermarket air/fuel computer (easily installed or constructed) that modifies the signals to the car's manifold air pressure sensor allows you to lean out the engine and save fuel. Installing a wideband O2 sensor with a digital readout lets you maintain an eye on it. Does it get geekier than that?
If you want to take it to the next level, rebuilding the engine with forged internals that can take the odd detonation caused by extreme lean running is another idea, as is installing a better air intake system and exhaust. You can investigate alcohol injection as a means to counter the lean running. Etc, etc etc.
Weight reduction is another area you can improve; the unfortunate emphasis on making "safer" cars rather than "safer" drivers means that your average economy car weighs a LOT. Learn to be a safe driver.
It's not just the gas consumption - think of the energy costs of building and transporting a new vehicle. There are thousands of cars out there that can be refurbished and used for many more hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm not talking out of my ass here - I rebuild engines (although usually for power) in my spare time. My brother has a 1991 Civic hatchback we modified for mileage that rotinely gets 40mpg with heavy city driving. The car has 430,000km on it, and is probably good for another 200,000 km with some body work. There is a myth perpetuated that engines are a) not possible to rebuild anymore, b) too expensive to rebuild, and c) not possible to rebuild yourself. This is FUD.
Nevermind you save another car from rusting in a junkyard. Most peole here are of above average intelligence, use those skills to help the environment AND save a pile of money. Don't just rush out and get a new vehicle without thinking.
If you live in a tight urban area, look at a scooter - they're fun, and you can tweak them to run with extreme efficiency without much difficulty.
..don't panic
FYI, changing your oil every 5000 is about the interval recommended for cars nowadays, hybrid or not. The only ones pushing you to change your oil every 3000 miles are the oil change shops.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Let me guess then...
Pet Peeve #1: The feeling that someone, somewhere may have more money and nicer things than you do.
Could someone on the SUV bashing side explain why they get singled out so much among the fuel inefficient vehicles? It seems like trucks are okay, but as soon as you add a couple more seats for your family in place of the truck bed, they're now pure evil.
It looks to me like the anti-SUV crowd are the ones whining. Why can't you just be happy with what you have and leave them alone? Why do you need to attack people so strongly for selecting a particular type of vehicle you don't like? I suppose Ford people and GM people attack eachother with similar verbage, but I don't understand that either.
How much hatred is there in this exchange:
"Ask Slashdot: Should I buy an electric or hybrid car?"
"SUVs suck!"
I don't think the writer is deciding between a hybrid/electric and an SUV. Why would SUVs come up at all?
char *mySig;
Because most of us aren't 3 feet tall.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
>>it's safe, it seats six, and has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags.
Chop 'em up? Why, I never would have thought of that!
You know, it's just that sort of practical use-it-every-day knowledge that keeps me coming back here to Slashdot! Thanks, guys!
Well, I'm one of Honda's "Early Adopters". I picked up a new 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. Isn't it pretty?
I had been contemplating a new car for some time, and was trying to decide whether I wanted to get a VW Jetta or not. Then I started thinking about fuel economy and all that. The VW TDI was pretty good for fuel efficiency, but I needed a car that said "geek". Then I heard about the hybrids.
In all, I like the car. I used to drive a 1990 Chevy Cavalier 2 door coupe. It's not like I went from a BMW to a Civic Hybrid. I'm not missing out on any power. The gas engine gives 80 hp, the electric IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) adds on another 13. The only place I've noticed a major change is getting on the interstate, my car is a little slower in coming up to highway speeds (mainly because NY forgot that "on-ramps" are for getting up to speed, not for driving around in tight circles.)
It's been real fun learning how to drive the car. True, mine is a 5 speed manual, and drives like any other 5 speed manual out there, but it takes a little getting used to. Not only are you trying to get from Point A to Point B, you're trying to get there in as good gas mileage as you possibly can.
Yes, the auto-stop feature can be a little weird feeling at first. Especially if you don't have the stereo on when you come to a stop. The car is dead quiet when the auto-stop engages. But, simply put the car back in gear and *vroom*, the car is running again. It also starts with a simple twist of the key, not the big long turn-chugga-chugga-chugga-turn over that my previous car had.
It's a pleasure for me to drive. It's also a pleasure to get into the car and see the MPG readout saying 51... or more (Mine says 56.3 at the moment. Err... it will, once I leave work and hop in the car.) Speaking of which, the road is calling me. Time to drive!
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
To all those city yippees --I live in Ohio. My nearest neighbor is a mile in either direction. The grocery store is 37 miles away. It is a 68 mile drive to work and half that is to get out of my county. Women love my Escalade and drool over my restored 66 Mustang. The last time my skinny ass was on a Bike was when I was 15 -- 15 years ago. I'm sorry you have to ride a bike to work and have never been able to buy a car. Women loove excess in most everything money, muscles, and burning gasoline. Try riding your bike or these econoboxes in the snow, jr. hahaha. You'll quickly be having a Diesel buring, black smoke spewing tow truck pulling your ass out of a ditch. Besides, you can't justify riding a bike in a city as helping the environment. You live in the city -- the concrete jungle. You should get out in the country and grow some vegitation. Plants produce oxygen, you need that more than your double latte. And yes, for 1500 bucks I can have a wireless hotspot in every part of my yard. Bet ya'll never had a rave in a cornfield, while the music streams from your huge electricity wasting 180 Gig jukebox of a pc to your beautifully set up Linux Box DJ station laptop. Sorry I would link to pics and docs, but I'm afraid my little web server couldn't handle a slashdotting.
Looks like it is time to replace your Personality Module. You are a bit to clingy, guess I better replace your fuser to
Hybrid cars are great for society and lousy for the buyers. They carry far more parts than conventional cars and those parts are expensive to maintain. Volkswagon has a diesel that al;ready gets better mileage than any hybrid sold and it is nicer to drive and costs far less to maintain.
The one legitimate use for hybrid cars is in cool climates where long traffic jambs are a daily experience. If you don't need AC on then standing in traffic without an engine running is fine. But for almost all users hybrids are a very bad idea. A $3000. battery pack more than ruins any fuel savings. Pure electric cars have also failed to work out well. At this time diesel is the best way to go. Fuel cells will be on the market soon enough and they should kick butt on all other systems.
A friend of mine had her Toyota Tacoma in the shop and was lent a Prius as a loaner vehicle by the dealership.
I got to drive it around town a little, and I didn't experience a problem with pickup at all.
I'm used to driving a 200hp Audi, so I figured a tiny little 67hp electric-powered engine would stink...
I was surprised by two things. The low end torque of the electric motor is more than sufficient. The power/weight ratio is such that you don't need a ton of hp to get the car moving. This was with three adults in the car, as well.
I wasn't able to test high-end torque, hill climbing, or highway passing power, however (some of which would use the gasoline assist.)
But as someone who likes to drive and takes cars seriously, I was favorably impressed.
Keep in mind that this was in the earliest model Prius, and the later model do even better.
The facts have a liberal bias. --The Daily Show
No, both Toyota and Honda have built many safety interlocks into the high-voltage battery systems. Fire crews just have to turn off the ignition to safely lock out the hybrid batteries for a rescue.
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
... because I live in my truck. I have a carpet kit which stores all of my personal belongings. I believe Ford or Toyota are coming out with an Electric 4x4 soon... and I'm waiting until then to sell my Tacoma.
First, if you're in Canada you're getting 40 miles per *imperial* gallon, which is only about 33 miles per US gallon. Second, US$20,000 is about C$28,000 not $40,000. sigh.
Sorry, but nothing will ever make me happy besides my American V8 =)
Basically, the main thing that the hybrid does for you is it lets the car re-capture the energy wasted in breaking, and apply that to taking off again. Which is why the Honda gets better milage in city than highway (most cars do better on highway milage).
At any rate, why buy a car with the intent to sell it in 2 years? That short of time you should lease. When I buy a car, I expect to keep it until repairs get too expensive (6+ years) or until the insurance company decides to total it out. My family has a nice, big van that has about 650,000 miles on it, it's on a second engine and we might be putting a third in it soon.
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Maybe some economics Prof should reply to this, but, the fact is the oil is pulled out of the ground with bizarro equations, not based on supply and demand. The only thing for sure is oil companies want to increase their profits. The other thing is for sure is that (for the time being) oil companies can supply as much oil as anyone would ever want. If we doubled consumption, for now they could meet it. So. If usage of gasoline goes down nationwide dramatically, oil companies would be forced to raise gas prices to keep up their profits.
A great little car. I bought mine used for $10K with 30K miles on it, and just sprung for the extended warranty. I love it. I was driving a 2000 4-Runner, which I have to keep for towing and transporting cargo - this was costing me $40 a week on gas. I drive a short commute daily, lots of stop and go, and on the weekends some 30-50 mile trips to friends and family.
Now, the cost of the tank fillup is $15 max, and that gets me 600 miles. In town and highway, I usually average about 55-61mpg, your mileage will vary depends how much of a hurry you are in. I enjoy driving the Insight since its like a game, of power - charging the batteries while coming to a stop, driving off without using the battery assist, its very enjoyable for me.
Pros:
SUPER GEEK factor, I enjoy telling people about the car, and since hydrogen fuel-cell cars are years away from being affordable, I think its a good stop to take. Love the tech factor.
Interior nicely laid out, nicer than the Prius for sure, havent seen the new one yet, but to me it looks like a 4 seater Honda Insight.
CONS:
Road noise is higher due to the low-rolling tires, but its not bad. SUVs have to deal with wind noise, and there's almost 0 of that for this car, so its a trade off.
A 2-seater, so no children in front of the airbag, which you cannot turn off. Passengers = 1.
WIND- sometimes on those really blustery days you can feel a little wind on the road, on some pavement the car can be a little "squirrely", but its minimal.
Tires - not meant to be used at the Indy 500, its not a car meant for tight turns. They have to have high air pressure in them (I run with 44psi) and they're cheap, $70 a tire when you need them replaced.
_______________________________________________
I have found that the storage space below deck to be adequate (about the size of two grocery bags full) but I usually put stuff on the back deck too, if they dont move around much.
Overall, its a great feeling to drive 600 miles and fill up ONCE A MONTH. The guy at the local gas station gets a kick out of when he sees me pull up. The Insights have A/C and all the usual power windows and such, I did replace the poor factory stereo and speakers and that did wonders. Snow is not great for the Insight 1) it sits low and can plow snow in about 4-5inches of snow, and 2) handling is not great. Change the tires and lose the great mileage. I have a 5 speed and it gets better mileage than the CVT, but its all your preference.
For more information, check out www.insightcentral.net - a great resource for those debating to buy or not. Overall, my best purchase in a long time. New they're $19K or so, so it might not give you the savings you want over time, but check for Insights on the internet on used car dealers and find a good deal for someone who traded it in for a 4 door and you're set.
www.sharkdefense.com
What we (Americans) don't pay in the cost of gasoline we do pay in property taxes and interest rates on home loans.
My parents are building a house in Spain at the moment, and the highest interest rate for a home loan was around 2.5%. Also the tax percentages on property are much, much higher - I forget the difference exactly but my parents also own quite a bit of property overseas as well and pay about 1/5th to 1/10th of the taxes they would on a similarly valued property here in Chicago (and these properties aren't in the middle of the desert either, they are near large cities and/or right on the coast of Spain - prime real estate).
-m
"I do not have as much of a fear of dying as I do of not having lived."
There's a graph comparing the torque curves of the engine and motor in the Insight brochure. The curves are complementary - the electric motor has highest torque at low revs and drops off at higher revs. The gas engine starts to pick up torque just when the motor is starting to wimp out. The composite curve is nice and smooth.
If you accelerate and shift agressively the Insight has way more zip than you'd expect from such a tiny engine. My 2000 Insight has a lifetime average 62 MPG.
You need the Hydrogen BOMB powered Jeep Orion. :-D
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
I'm sure other will notice the similarly between your statement and what is often said about buying (or upgrading) mainboards and CPUs.
For example, hybrid automobiles might be like the PCI-X era, both of which have begun but not en masse. But I agree that technology that will be available in a couple years' time will likely be improved compared to what you can buy now. If you want to be a part of it, though, sometimes you just gotta jump in....
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
We have a 2003 Prius and love it. I've dreamed for decades of a car that respected the law of conservation of energy. Now I am driving one.
My wife drives it 66 miles each way to work through the mountains and gets 48 mpg. I drive more gently and usually get 52-55 mpg. Once warmed up (about 5 minutes), it gets 55 mpg through city streets with lots of stop signs and stop lights. On the highway, we got 48 mpg round trip from California to Indiana with mountain stops at Whitney Portals, North Lake (above Bishop), and the upper Rockies. The air conditioning has a barely noticeable 1 or 2 mpg effect.
I'm not a power person, but it sure has all that is necessary to zip up any mountain grade. We live in the Sierras and do lots of hiking.
The original tires were crummy and we got new ones at 10,000 miles.
Since most of the braking is done by energy regeneration, the standard brake system should last much longer. The big question that no one knows the answer to is when the big battery will need replacement and at what cost.
It cost us $23,000 US with $2000 back from the San Joaquin Valley smog authority and a significant break on Federal tax. We lust to get another, but my Honda Civic Wagon only has 290,000 miles on it so we'll have to wait until I retire it at 400,000 miles.
The 2004 Prius is even better!
Period. If you're tall like me you don't fit in an accord or lesabre or basically any car (except older high end american parkave types), you pretty much have to get an SUV. And I don't mean one of those little xterra jobs either, I mean a big sucker.
The thing that kills me is I don't want a huge car -- I want a car big enough for me, a passanger, and for some groceries/duffel/suitcase.
Someone make a civic hybrid with leg and headroom and they'll have cornered this niche.
The price of a Civic hybrid is more than $10,000 more expensive than a normal Civic. However, don't they get somewhere between 750-800 km per tank of gas? The Insight gets over 900 km, I'm sure.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
I've never heard anything bad about the hybrids, and they do indeed get good mileage. I've read in multiple car magazines that one of the challenges of the hybrid cars was to treat driving like a game on how good of mileage they could get. I'd probably recommend the new Toyota Prius for its increased room and its geeky look to go along with the geeky powertrain =)
No TiVo and no caffeine make me something something...
I have been driving my Toyota Prius
... it rocks.
... High Milage ... it's great !
:) :)
(CA-Plate "low*smog") for 2.5 years now.
-- I estimated it would save me thousands per year in the cost of gas in comparision to a Jeep Grand Cherokee
-- I *does* fit a family of 4 easily. I do this all the time.
-- It has plenty of room.
My wife got in the car at the dealer, determined it was "roomy", to her, and converted from a "Are you kidding" to "Let's buy it !" , on the spot.
-- You never "plug it in" to anyting.
All you do is fill it with the cheapest un-leaded gas you can find.
-- I have driven it hundreds of miles to LA, Yosimite, the Sierras
-- There is a 2-k Federal Tax break (still effective ?) if you buy this car.
-- Low Smog
-- Of course,
simple physics says smaller cars bring less momentum into any hypothetical collision than larger cars do.
-- So what. This is *not* a small car. It is a mid-sized sedan (grin).
-- Enjoy your new Toyota Prius !
OK, so you say it got expensive to put 38 gallons of gas in your horribly huge vehicle (my mid-size sedan only has a 15 gallon tank)... Why were you putting that much gas in? If it's so expensive, why not change your habits and drive less? Why not buy a different vehicle?
His whole point was that raising the gas price doesn't change people's habits, and you just confirmed that. You said you spent your money on gas instead of Dew, that isn't changing your driving habits (but it might mean you'll lose a little weight from the decreased sugar intake).
More to the point of your post, though, is that yes, some vehicles (trucks) need a big engine to haul crap around... but only a very small percentage of the population actually needs one of those vehicles. My grandpa drove a mid-size sedan when he was raising his 6 kids, so you can't use the "I need it to ferry around my kids" excuse. With a 38 gallon gas tank, I'm assuming you have a truck... what do you use that large of a truck for? Would an S-10 or Ranger not work to haul stuff? Or is it an SUV that usually has one person and no cargo except groceries? If you actually use your overly large vehicle, how often do you use it for its purpose? If only once a month, maybe you can get a smaller car for the daily use and not spend much more money overall since you'll have decreased gas costs (a small used car can cost $1000, which you'll save in two years of gas costs). If you absolutely use that beast everyday for work, you can have your company pay for it or deduct it as a business expense.
The thing is, nothing at all is as cheap as gas. A gallon costs $2 in L.A. A gallon of water costs almost that much. A gallon of milk is more, so is a gallon of gatorade, mountain dew, etc. In Europe gas costs $5/gallon. Do you see many SUVs and trucks over there? No. Do they have a different type of person over there with fewer needs for large vehicles? No. They have the same needs as you do, but they just don't buy them.
IANAL, but I play one on
To date, the automanufacturers have offered *krap* in terms of hybrids in the American market. If you buy one today, you get underpowered things like 3-cylinder Hondas that look, for a lack of better terms, butt-ugly. It really annoys me to the core because having been an undergraduate student at UC Davis back in 1996, I saw better functioning hybrid vehicles than have been brought to market to date. In 1996, the engineering program at UC Davis (under funding from the U.S. Air Force of all sources) had a Ford Taurus that featured the typical 6 cylinder engine combined with hybrid technology that offered 66Mpg without sacrificing horsepower. 66Mpg in such a large vehicle as the Taurus (a gunboat of a car). Compare that with the ugly shoebox designs from Honda and Toyota and they don't even come close to 66Mpg yet they have small wheels and *wimpy* engines. What gives? Talk about suppressing technology! Perhaps VW can bring to market a hybrid Beetle that will capture the attention of the general public. Or perhaps we can hope the hybrid 2005 Ford Escape won't disappoint. Just think about the fact that the Geo Metro when first introduced scored 59/65 Mpg and quickly dropped in fuel efficiency as the years ticked away. And that wasn't even a hybrid...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
By the way, my bicycle is a zero emissions vehicle
No, it's fueled by "food" and produces "sewage" and methane gas, which contributes to greenhouse warming!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
The one thing I find odd about this whole fuel mileage thing is that I see people saying they get 45-50 mpg with the Civic hybrid, etc... and how great that is.
I had a 1984 Honda Accord LX hatchback, it was a carbureted 4-cylinder single-overhead cam engine. I used to regularly get 45 mpg on the highway and it was a peppy little car. Why hasn't fuel economy advanced from THAT point almost 20 years ago? If it had, these cars should be getting more than 80 mpg...
Alas, my Honda rusted into oblivion years ago thanks to Michigan winters and then college by the ocean.
I messed up with the calculator ;)
Have you sat in a newer Mini Cooper? They're very roomy inside. The only thing lacking is trunk space, but you can easily fold down the back seats. Just don't expect to carry more than one passenger with lots of luggage.
.bob
You can even fit a 36" TV in the back with the seats down.
It's always darkest before
I recently purchased a gas 5-speed Honda Civic. I really wanted to buy the H-EV but it came at a $6,000 premium over gas. In the gas Civic I get 42 MPG. Lets assume in the H-EV I could get 63 MPG (thats 1.5x). Where I live gas is about $1.60/gal, so I'm looking at 3.8 cents/mile with gas and 2.5 cents/mile with the H-EV. That's only a savings of 1.3 cents/mile.
With only 1.3 cents/mile it would take over 460,000 miles to recoup my initial $6,000 outlay. I drive about 50,000 miles per year so that's 9+ years. I know Honda's are great cars and they last a long time but 9+ years for a break even was not acceptable for me.
Now you might save some money on maintenance, but most of these maintenance savings are speculative. We know how long a gas car can last because we've ben driving them for decades. However, the H-EV's have not been strongly road tested with thousands of drivers driving mass produced vehicles. However, if one wants to calculate the maintenance savings in to their TCO analysis then also you must calculated interest on that $6,000 premium over the term of your car loan.
As I metioned at the beginning of my comment, I bought the gas vehicle. I have still not disposed of the mini-van that my Honda Civic replaced. I think I can convert it to pure electric for about $5,000. But I won't be doing this for financial reasons this is purely for cool/geek reasons. I want to install a high end gaming PC so that people in the back seat can play games while riding and make it a mobile party van.
Keep that in mind next time that you're shopping for hybrids. They'll save you a buttload of money with respect to a big ol' SUV, but it takes a long time to catch up to a less expensive compact.
By the way, I love driving my car... and it doesn't look goofy. :)
There are two types of people: those prepared for the zombie apocalypse and those who will be eaten.
Being a car enthusiast and a "driver", I could not imagine the thrill someone would get from getting behind a Civic Hybrid pumping out a whopping 85hp. Sure I'd have a few extra dollars in my pocket, but I'd dread driving a car with that little oomph.
For the same price as the Civic Hybrid (around $20K, I'd buy an SRT-4 with a 2.4-liter DOHC 16-valve 4-cylinder that produces an impressive 215-horsepower and 245 lb. ft. of torque.
Awesome!
100% Insightful
Me, I have to scope my vehicle for the worst case scenario (seven passengers and a trailer) and then live with the surplus capacity the rest of the time.
Wow, I know what you mean. I'm still making payments on the personal jet. Gotta visit Europe sometimes, after all.
Seriously, you're over 25, right? Price out rentals, and see how it adds up against the purchase price and gas prices of the SUV. Try out hotwire.com, and/or sign up with the various rental agencies to get their cheapest online prices. If your vacation every year is to spend a month on the road with you, the spouse, and your 5 kids, what you're saying could make sense.
If you usually *fly* somewhere for your vacations, though, it doesn't make sense. If you only need the trailer twice a year, to schlep your kid's stuff to college and back, it doesn't make sense.
I obviously don't know your personal situation... but there are actually surprisingly few people out there for whom an SUV is really logical. But how many people really have the self-awareness to just skip the rationalizations and say, "it is worth $xxxxx, angry stares from the tree-huggers, and a greater risk of killing someone to me to avoid driving a station wagon or minivan, and/or to feel bigger than anyone else on the road."
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
I got an Insight in early 2000, and like it quite a lot -- reliable, great mileage (duh), pickup's just fine in almost all situations (basically, except for trying to accelerate dramatically while going up a hill). The downside is that it only has enough storage for, oh, maybe three bags of groceries or one suitcase.
... "so, as you can see, the gas engine's efficiency at low speeds ... can we have the next slide, please?"
My SO points out an added bonus that nobody else here has mentioned: when people ask me about it, I get to explain and use my "presentation voice"! I'm thinking of starting to travel with a portable projecter and one of those little laser highlighter things
Last year, I went through this same calculation. The personal costs, don't average out until you have driven several hundred thousand miles.
A $12,000 regular car vs a $20,000 hybrid. That extra $8000 buy a LOT of gas.
Contrast an $8500 Hyundai @ 30mph, and a $22,000 Toyota @ 45mpg, and the costs NEVER equal out. Both cars will be long in the junkyard before then.
Of course, there are other considerations (ecology, etc) but don't do it to reduce your personal costs.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
I think the main problem with the CVT's is we haven't seen a well implemented one. I tested an audi a4 with the CVT, and it allowed you to shift gears. I asked the dealer about it because it made no sense to me. his reply was that Audi found people perfered the artificial gears rather than using the CVT to keep the engine at the same RPM constantly.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
I've had my Civic Hybrid since September 30th of last year (coincidentally, the commissioning anniversary of the nuclear sub Nautilus). 'Lissy' (short for Nautilus) has been a blast to drive. I average about 45 mpg on stop/go commutes, and about 55 mpg on interstate driving. With the A/C on solid I get about 42 on the interstate. The handling is great (tight steering and stiff suspension), and the electcric motor gets her off the stop line without hesitation. The console is a beautifully designed interface, and the quiet ride is nice on long trips. After almost a year of ownership, I have no regrets.
Cynicism, like dogmatism, can be an excuse for intellectual laziness. - Susan Shirk
CNN has repeated several times a special about Police Crown Vics that catch fire after re-end accidents...there is a mod you can get free from your dealer to fix the problem...or at least reduce the chances of being toast if you get rear-ended. Crown Vics are nice, but I like my Mini-van, since I shlep around people and music gear all the time.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
My grandparents have a hybrid... one of the first made by Honda, actually. They have been very happy with it and its performance. The only gripe they might have is that they have to search high and low to find a mechanic that is certified to work on the car. I guess the dealerships won't let just anybody touch the little buggers.
The gas mileage is very good compared to gas-only cars in the same class and it will knock the socks off of any suv out there.
Acceleration is good (not like a V-8 sports car). Moving slowly around a parking lot or coming to a stop shuts the gas engine off so that it runs on electric only. The same goes for the first stage of a take-off. You can't even hear the car role up next to you!
If you are not looking for a sports car to go cruising in or vehicle that will haul you and six of your buddies around town, I would recommend a hybrid. My grandparents would, too.
user@host:/usr/bin$ whatis
java: nothing appropriate.
I agree! I own a tdi golf and am able to travel 800 miles on a tank of biodiesel. If you are willing to do your own maintenance and not take it to the dealer, it could easily be the cheapest car you ever own and 195 ft/lb makes it a much funner car to own than a hybrid. If I were you, I'd at least test drive one to see how far diesels have progressed. BTW, I've found www.tdiclub.com to be an invaluable resource for owning a tdi.
You'd get run off the road if you were only doing 70, and you don't hit "agressive" until you're triple digit.
Then a Toyota hybrid may not be the best for you. A side effect of their planetary CVT design is a velocity ceiling. I don't have the exact number on hand, but I think the top speed of the 1997-2003 Prius is somewhere in the 104-112 mph range.You write your nine symphonies, then you die.
Though that's Imperial gallons which are of course, bigger than American gallons.
And a 250cc bike is *not* big enough.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
I'm not trolling here, but I've heard that there have been problems with the battery packs overheating during charging, starting fires. I've been told that there is the same problem with golf carts.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Pet Peeve # i +1? Sorry, your peeves are irrational.
I test drove the Prius and the Echo when I was shopping about for a new car. The Prius was a classier than the Echos were, but in the end, I went with the Echo.
Why?
most of my commute is highway - About 90% of it. As you get up to those highway speeds, the improvement in mileage just did not justify the added expense. I get between 37 and 40 miles to the gallon (depending on AC usage). The Prius under the same conditions may approach 44 to 46? And at almost twice the cost of the Echo.
I still get better fuel economy than most out on the road, and I didn't pay through the nose for it.
I think the Prius is a great car. Sure it's not sporty but you can travel for ever and it has a good matinence record.
While I'm not shopping for a car right now, I figure the car I have now (a 1986 VW Jetta) is the last gas-engined car I will ever own. When I replace it I will probably buy a diesel, but will want to check out available hybrids. I really want them to work, but feel they're not quite there yet.
I have no complaints about gas mileage, with my car returning about 6 l/100km highway, 10 city. My car is licensed and insured as a pleasure vehicle, and I drive it to work one day each week to remind myself why I ride the bus the other 4 days. :-)
I've test-driven an Insight, and have ridden in several Priuses. A taxi company here runs a fleet of them, and a colleague drives one. He jokes that you need a laptop and a USB cable to hotwire his car. The first time I rode in it I thought it was an Echo, and marvelled at how quietly it idled. Then I saw the display on the dash and knew better...
...laura
That's the only conclusion I can come to after reading this thread. America is a country of scaredy cats.
No wonder the Iraqi's are kicking your arses now that it's down to the nitty gritty.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Just get whatever car gives you a big 'ol boner and is fun to drive. Save the sensible car for later.
I'm a 2000 man.
My wife and I just went through the process of buying a hybrid, and settled on the 2003 Civic. Let me point out that I've owned both Hondas and Toyotas in the past and been very satisfied with both brands. There were a number of factors that influenced the decision, but the biggest was that the back seat is a bit bigger in the Civic which is nice when you need to haul your friends around. Some more observations on both:
The Prius is a hybrid from the ground up, the Civic is a Civic from the ground up. Toyota wants you and everyone else to know that you're driving a hybrid. If you're looking for "neato" appeal, go for the Prius. You get to watch a little cartoon of the drivetrain every time you accelerate. As for the Civic, you'd never know it was a hybrid if they took the "charge/assist" indicator off the instrument cluster. You'd just think it tended to stall at lights a lot.
The design philosophy behind the hybrid drive is dramatically different in the two cars. Toyota chose a larger motor and smaller engine than Honda. The Civic motor is integrated into the flywheel and thus the motor assist is only available with the engine running. The Prius motor is able to run independantly of the engine, allowing you to run entirely on electric power. I really liked the idea of being able to creep on electric power, but not enough to choose the Prius over the Civic.
You can get a standard transmission in the Civic. This was unavailable in the 2003 Prius, not sure about the 2004. I really like standards, so this was a point in favor of the Civic. The only thing to watch out for is that since the motor is hanging off the back of the engine, the clutch has to be engaged for the regenerative braking to work. This took some driving style changes for me as I'm used to downshifting as I stop and spend a lot of time with the clutch disengaged. I still maintain that this is a good idea because if I have to get out of a nasty situation I like to find myself in the right gear so I still have some positive control (i.e. acceleration). Unfortunately (in this case) renerative braking is a big part of the hybrid concept so I've resigned myself to staying in a high gear longer than I normally would. No biggie.
The handling on the Civic is a whole lot nicer than I expected. There's surprisingly little body roll when cornering. Still, I wouldn't exactly consider it a performance car. I can't comment on the handling of the Prius, as when we went to the dealership to test drive one the response was "We don't have one." Click. And that was that. As I said above, I've owned Toyotas and dealt with the dealerships before, and this was definitely not a typical experience.
So overall, I'm very happy with the Civic Hybrid. We didn't buy it for the mileage, though 45 MPG on my urban commute to work is nice. We didn't buy it for the geek factor, though that's nice too. We bought a hybrid to show (even though our purchase is just a drop in the bucket) that there's a market for newer, more environmentally sound technologies. Everyone will say that you can get the same mileage from a Geo Metro or a Volkswagen TDI, and for the most part they're right. But these are hardly revolutionary, and if we keep going down that road eventually the development will become asymptotic. Moore's law simply doesn't apply to internal combustion. Of course hybrid isn't a panacaea, but at least it gives the manufacturers some experience in electric drive and it keeps the gears of innovation turning.
I know someone who got a Civic Hybrid, and I have done a fair bit of research into getting a hybrid myself. First off I admit that the main reason I wanted to get a hybrid was for the geek factor and to support the development of this cool technology. These aren't the most economical - normal Honda Civic and the Toyota Echo are less expensive overall. They also aren't the only environmentally friendly things out there. Many cars have emissions that are plenty good enough. Plus I'm not too concerned about depleting our use of oil, as it could be replaced with biodesiel very easily, and if oil became scarce it would be economical to do so. They are not the most versatile vehicles either. However, they are good at all of these things. (oh, and the chick dig em :)
Now onto my experiences. At the time I was looking I had some complaints about the Prius. First the controls were horrible. You thought talking on a cell phone was bad, try using a tivo-like all-in-one display for he radio, AC battery monitoring etc. The controls on the Honda Civic were damn near reaching perfection in design. Simple and effective. Then again I am thinking of getting my masters in UI design so maybe I'm more picky about theses things than others. Also the braking felt a little weird, and the car was ugly in my opinion. However, you should look at the new 2004 Prius. I don't know if the controls or braking have improved, but the appearance has changed (I like it), and they moved the battery (both civic and prius currently have it in the rear seat back), so you can fold the rear seat forward.
Driving around the city was great in both of these cars. They had more pickup than some of the normal cars I test drove. They do not have much acceleration at highway speeds though, which means you need to think farther ahead and try and not slow down if you don't need to. I imagine driving in city highway traffic would suck. The only killer for these vehicles are long hills. There is one hill coming into Albuquerque that I'd have to drive often. I've been told that you end up completely draining the battery on this hill, and then left with only the motor you slow down to about 45mph by the time you reach the top. Luckily, there is a truck lane on the hill, so you aren't obstructing traffic.
While all of the battery and electric motor technology for both of these cars have very good warrantees (8-10 years) the main area of concern that I had was with the CVT. We don't know how well these are going to hold up, and as far as I could tell they were not covered by the warrantee.
In my case, I decided to go with something less expensive, with a proven high reliability, so that I could get it paid off quickly and then not worry about it when I decided to go back to grad school. I think that is basically what if comes down to - are you willing to put up with the small annoyance that you cant always go as fast as you'd like and take the small risk that the car might not last as long as you want? If so I think a hybrid could be a great car for you. Under different circumstances I could easily see myself getting a hybrid.
PS: some people have mentioned the VW Jetta Turbo Diesel. I really, really liked this car. The only reason I didn't buy it was because a couple groups (including Consumer Reports) have found it to have serious reliability problems. Last time I checked it was in a race with the Ford Focus for being the least reliable sedan on the market. Shame.
Typical american reponse to anything. "I'll drive this big thing because WHEN I get in an accident I might survive." Akin to "Doctor, I'm sick, make me feel better." "Have you thought about not eating like a pig and exercising more than once a month?" "No! I'm american! Just fix me so I can go on being an idiot!"
Do americans ever think about traits that help AVOID an accident in the first place? Better handling, shorter braking, better visibility, driving with half a brain?
Would be interesting if one day people thought about preventing things (accidents, illnesses) instead of whining about the obvious results of carelessness.
J
There is a useful site at:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/
They have a database of vehicles, their fuel economy, and what emissions the vehicle produces.
Buy a decent motorcycle and use have the gas while having 10 times the fun. Or buy three really good bikes for what that hybrid is gonna cost you.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
The poor will be buying the cars that were new 5-10 years ago, almost no matter what those cars were. If you demand fuel prices aimed at the poor, you're demanding that nothing change because all the Chevy Caprices cannot be turned into Metros with the passage of a bill; it has to start somewhere. If you are so concerned about the poor, increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to compensate for the higher fuel taxes they'd pay and phase it out as the vehicle fleet is replaced by the more efficient one.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
There isn't one yet, but I assume there will be one soon. They have the same type of batteries as are used in forklifts and your computer's UPS. Since they are lead, they will recycle quite easily. Maybe around 2015, the lead in your computer will have come from your car battery? [shrug]
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
One thing I have always wondered about hybrid cars is how the use of AC affects the mileage. I think AC is left out of most electrics (at lest conversions) because of the power it eats. What about the hybrids? I heard a rumor that AC required the fuel engine to be on whenever used.
I ask because I live in Texas, and refuest to have a car without AC again.
KevG
I own a 2000 Honda Insight with 60k miles on it in Denver Colorado for three years of sun, snow, and rain
I love the car, it has run great in anything but unplowed snow over 1' (then it tends to toboggan due to low clearance). It'a great car that hasn't had any problems and is alot of fun to drive. I have completed the Denver-Las Vegas run (700 miles) on one tank of gas. Gets attention from intellegent people, including women. Worth it just for that. Go for the full Hybrid Civic if you want no compromises from a normal car, go for the Insight if you want to turn heads, don't need a back seat, and want insane (64 mpg baby!) milage.
Best Regards,
-Nick
Have GNU . . . Will Travel
That might be, but so long as people aren't buying (and don't want to buy) smaller, more economical vehicles, auto manufacturers can rightly claim that they're "just giving customers what they want".
If for whatever reason the general public demanded more fuel efficient cars (say from truly skyrocketing gas prices), some car maker would benefit. The oil crisis in the late 70s lead to many more small cars on the road. The real problem here I guess, is that American car companies aren't very sucessful at making small, economical cars. When somebody says big SUV, who comes to mind? GM and Ford. When somebody says small economy car, who comes to mind? Honda and Toyota.
Depends on whether you're talking about 2WD or 4WD. They broke the numbers out separately.
I drove my 2003 Prius from Minneapolis, MN to Portland, OR. I did around 85 MPH most of the way and averaged 42 MPG for the whole trip. The mileage was best driving through/over the rockies where I could regenerate a ton of power on the long downhills.
The Prius' mileage is *worst* on highways, so 42 MPG at 85 MPH is a happy story.
I see a few people have mentioned fears of the cost of having the car serviced. Apparently, Toyota heard those same fears so they bumped up the warranty all around so people shouldn't have anything to worry about. The combustion and electrical systems are both fully covered for something like 8 years (don't have the details in front of me now) and they include two and a half years of bi-yearly checkups (which includes an oil change if that floats your boat).
The TDI volkswagens are getting better mileage than some of the hybrids, and they are pretty inexpensive. A 2002 Jetta TDI gets around 66 MPG on the highway. Plain diesel is easy to get and cheaper in some areas than gas/ethanol. I considered buying a used fleet truck that was fueld by CNG (Compressed Natural Gas). Propane fueled fleet vehicles are also available. Both are much cleaner than gas, but these are mostly big trucks (Ford F150-F250 size or Vans). I would not recommend buying used fleet vehicles (from rental or leasing companies, city depts, etc) unless you are a mechanic and have the time to rebuild/fix them. Used vehicles in general are a bad idea. Most or all of the hybrids available are running small gas engines with electronic assist. Coupling a gas engine to the drive train means the engine still has to be pretty large (over 1000cc) to deliver enough power. Current electronic assisted designs reduce harmful emissions, but ultimately still produce them to some degree. Ideally the engine would be as small as possible, and only drive a generator.The drive train would be handled by electric motors. I have not seen a production vehicle with this design, although there have been plenty of prototypes. More fully electric drive train vehicles will be available in the next 5-10 years, hopefully the big manufacturers will be moving towards fully electric vehicles as fuel cells and smaller generators become more feasible.
TallGreen CMS hosting
You think this is funny?
"has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags."
This isn't funny or clever, it's just plain sexist and offensive, and you need to get a life. Can we please be a little more mature in these threads??
I can report first-hand on a recent pure-electric vehicle: the Think Neighbor. For some specialized applications, it's a great solution, but as a general-purpose vehicle it comes up short.
The Think Neighbor is a small, two or four-person vehicle slightly larger than a golf cart. While street-legal, the one I drove is largely driven off-street, between buildings and other areas, with occasional short stints on the public streets (which is why the Think is used instead of a golf cart, which would not be street legal). The Think has a top speed (governor-limited) of 25 MPH, but it can't even maintain that uphill: more like 20 or even 15 MPH up a steep hill. It is supposed to have a range of up to 80 miles. While we never ran the battery completely down, my guess at the range would be more like 20-25 miles. With these limitations, driving on anything other than low-speed, low-traffic streets is an unpleasant experience.
While I have never driven any other pure electric vehicle, my experience with the Think leads me to belive that the zero-emission vehicle (as opposed to various types of low-emission vehicle, such as the hybrid) is not yet ready for use as a general-purpose vehicle, and probably won't be ready for some time to come.
The SmartCar is a much better alternative, better mileage, etc.. but the US Govt. won't let Daimler import them here because they (the govt.) refuses to do the crash tests. Some reasons that have been cited are that the price is too low, the car is too small (only 8 foot long) and that it would hurt adoption of hybrid and electric cars in the US. In Europe these little cars will pass you by easily on the highway in Austria or Germany. They're sporty, you can change the body panels for a new color if you're interested, and the frame is super strong. It's available with all modern safety features. Those who argue the driver wouldn't survive a crash with a sport utility ignore the fact that most compact cars have difficulty protecting their driver against a head on high speed collision with any SUV. The SmartCar is awesome, I wish I could get one here in the US.
My friend had a Prius and I drove it quite a lot. I would say it had great pickup. It at least as good as and average 4 cylinder car. It wouldn't pin you in the seat. But initially you could definately feel the inertia. It does not turn off the air when in battery mode. For all purposes it was like a normal car. No space constraints. Braking took some getting used to because you can feel the generator kick in. And it has a different kind of drag than brake pad on rotor. The brakes are just very sensitive. She was warned never to touch any yellow wire under the hood. And there are a lot of them. So electric shock could be a downside. One wonders what standing water would do.....
During the day, it moves one human (me) 20-30 miles around town at up to 45mph. At night, it gets plugged in to an ordinary 110V outlet. That's it. No gas, no oil changes, hardly any insurance cost ($150/yr), practically nothing to break or wear out. If you factor in everything (depreciation, insurance, repair, etc.) it's about 35% of the operating costs of a normal car.
On the "minus" side: yes, it looks weird. Which means people smile and wave when you drive by. Busloads of schoolchildren try to get your attention. Hot chicks stare at you for a change. Ah well, you get used to it.
We all have pretty much the same brakes. Your 4WD (or my AWD) isn't going to help me stop any better on ice than a 2WD.
What were you expecting?
I can only imagine the looks you get in your Crown Vic from the babes. Beemer? Why bother. 300Z? Not much room for dead people.
Several years ago I bought a Town & Country minivan (the limousine of minivans they say) for the space and to have a quasi-luxury, yet ample kid mover. The kicker? Even my *wife* thought I looked like a loser.
Test driving a Toyota Prius last weekend, I pulled in to a station to grab a refreshing beverage. Two early 20's young ladies were pumping gas in their Prius, smiled and engaged *me* in conversation about whether I was going to buy it; the environment; the mileage and more. Like that ever happens normally!
'Course, if a guy is cruising the trailer parks in Sun City with that Crown Vic...you're all set.
Some posters have hinted that the Civic hybrid has manual transmission available, but it would only hinder the fuel effieincy of the thing. Personally I prefer the CVT (continusly variable transmission) in the cars, since acceleration is much smoother and the engines are quieter. If you want a noisy, jerky, manual vehicle, I suggest you go back a few decades and look at the classic Chevy cars.
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
This could be a little off-topic, but the new Prius introduced in Japan has this cool feature - it parallel parks automatically.
New Toyota Takes Pain Out of Parallel Parking
Makes me wonder - the feature does help folks that are parallel-parking challenged, but will it do anything by way of letting them develop a new talent? Sigh!
-- Off to build a bridge between the twin peaks of Mt. Kilimanjaro.
I, myself, have a hybrid. It's the Honda Civic Hybrid and I love it. It has much better pickup than some gas powered cars do. I have had no problems, besides the fact that the power and engine useage gages are a bit distracting. Oh, this is a small thing, but when you stop the engine cuts turns off completely, therefore it is completely silent and without viboration. Since it has that big electric engine it starts the gas one fast, so that you don't notice any pause.
GREASEL! Get an old Mercedes and convert it to veggie, man. You can convert any diesel, so you could get a Jetta TDI and convert it, or a 7.4L Ford Pickup. I have been looking at this for my second car, and a vegetable powered Mercedes seems like an awesome idea.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
That would help, but here's another: make it so you can register and insure a big vehicle and a cheap commuter car "as one". You'd only get one set of plates and you could only drive one at a time (move plates). This would eliminate one of the big objections "I'd have to pay insurance on another vehicle." that keeps people commuting in their giant trucks-for-taking-the-family-vacationing.
I use dio-diesel in my old VW rabbit pickup and get over 60 miles per dollar. For a $600 investment in a SVO kit, the fuel becomes free ... I am saving up.
best info good kit good kit best kit best book
Boy I would kill for mileage like that. My 64 Impala 409 SS averaged about 8MPG if driven nicely, and was probably closer to 5 the way I drove it. My new SUV doesn't seem a whole lot better, maybe 11-12 MPG. Maybe it's time to trade up to something that doesn't gobble up $40 at every fill...It must be nice to not have to look out for gas stations at every second street corner :-)
Close to 20k miles now, not one single problem.
Ditto to what the previous guy said about the Civic Hybrid. I get about 40-42 mpg - all city driving. Highway I get ~50 mpg.
I believe the federal tax deduction is $2k which translates into a few hundred $ of actual cash in your pocket (depending on your tax situation). If saving money is what you're after then a gas or diesel powered economy car is a better deal. There is nothing wrong with buying a cool gadget but that's what these are at this point for most people.
$1000 rebate last year and $500 for next year.... plus i received a $1000 rebate from Honda for a clean emission vehicle.
plus you get to drive in the carpool lane w/o having a passenger. you're helping the environment and, personally, i average 25k miles/yr. so i'd recoup the costs in half the time.
I own a 5-speed Civic Hybrid and I don't find it noisy or jerky at all. As for engine/motor balance, that's all handled by the IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) computer and is a function of the engine RPM and accelerator input. It's no different than the CVT in that respect. What is different is that I have a bit more control of where I am on the torque and horsepower curves. Also, admittedly, there's a certain play aspect to it. You're right about the mileage, at least in the city, but on the highway the manual is better. The CVT gets 48/47 and the manual gets 46/51. Finally, the manual is 61 pounds lighter and $1000 cheaper than the CVT.
A turbocharger that's always engaged is called a supercharger. ;) Superchargers are usually mechanically linked to the engine, while turbochargers are spun up by exhaust gases (hence the lag).
No, I only have sat in the old model, and it felt pretty small.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
I've been wondering for awhile about how much it takes to produce a car, ever since I saw photos of a LNG bus that melted when the LNG tank blew. Here's a reasonable shot at overestimating the resources required:
Assume a 2000lb car (sorry, I use metric at work but everything I found on the web was in stupid units, so this post will be as well)
Assume it's 2000lbs of aluminum, made from ore and not recycled. I'm doing this because aluminum is VERY energy intensive to produce.
Each pound of aluminum takes the equivalent of 1.5 gallons of gas to make it (I found a web page that said that throwing away a 0.5oz aluminum can was equivalent to wasting 6 fluid ozs of gasoline).
So, it would take about 3000 gallons of gas to produce a car under the worst possible assumptions. Reasonable mileage on a used car will be 30mpg, whereas the prius supposedly gets about 50. After 60000 miles in the used car, you've lost the balance of resources, again, under the worst possible assumptions.
If you more correctly assume that the aluminum will be (mostly) recycled, the resource price drops by a factor of 20. Of course, my assumtions that using aluminum as a stand-in for everything else that goes into a car would probably fail then too.
I would love to see a better estimate of the energy resources required to make a car, so feel free to criticize (this is slashdot, so I'm sure you will)
My father's '95 Mercedes S420 had a real time MPG meter as well.
If you want impressive mpg, my '98 Supra can make some 1000hp at full boost, but can get an impressive 18-20mpg while cruising on the highway... how about that for being bi-polar.
-m
"I do not have as much of a fear of dying as I do of not having lived."
- nearly all the carbon for the plant comes from the air,
- not all of the plant is eaten, and
- not all of the carbon produced is released into
the air.
So, good joke, but using food as a fuel is the Right Thing to do for global warming. That's why those fuel cells that run on sugar they're working on is such a good idea...- "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
Auto critics often call their cars bland
After re-reading this I realized it wasn't quite accurate. Most auto critics give Honda cars very good reviews overall. It's just the styling they often call bland, not the cars as a whole.
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's Volkswagen, you insensitive clod!
I own a 2002 Prius and the biggest difference between it and the Civic Hybrid lies in its planetary gearing system (which the Civic lacks). In the Prius, the on-board computer can decide what combination of gasoline engine, electric motor, and electric generator (they're separate) to connect to the drivetrain, depending on conditions. In the Civic, the gasoline engine is permanently connected to the drivetrain, so it's always turning, even if it's not being used. There are two main consequences of this difference:
- The planetary gearing system seems to add about 1000 pounds to the vehicle curb weight.
- The Prius can take the gasoline engine off the drivetrain any time it needs to.
A friend who owns the Civic Hybrid complained that in city driving, the gasoline engine will turn off it you stop at a light, but if you advance even a few feet, it will turn the engine on again and not turn it off until the vehicle has gone up to about 10mph and then back to zero.My Prius can use the electric motor alone at any speed, as long as the load is low enough, and the only "unnecessary" use of the gasoline engine is when the A/C is running (this is fixed in the 2004 model) or if the engine hasn't yet gotten to optimum running temperature.
Of course, YMMV :-)
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
In the state of California, certain ultra low emission vehicles can use the car pool lanes even with only a single pasaanger. I have a neighbor who has such a vehicle strictly for his daily commute between Orange County and Los Angeles.
A list of qualifying vehicles may be found here.
If you know what LA traffic is like, then you know what a huge benefit this could be to the right person.
When I was in the US I was shocked to learn that many people needed to change their oil every 3000 miles or so. Here in Europe I've never had a car that needed an oil change more regularly than 10000 miles.
Is it something to do with the regular economy fuel in Europe being 95 octane (super is 98), compared to the significantly lower US octanes (regular being 87)? Or is it just down to smaller more economical European engines?
I did a lot of research on the two competing hybrids - The Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius. The Insight had better reviews, was considered to have better technology, and Honda, as a general rule of thumb, has a lower TCO than Toyota.
Then the Civic Hybrid came out, and it not only blew away the Insight (further refinements to the technology, better gas milage, 4 doors!, a backseat, a real trunk, etc), but was also bigger in the cabin than the Prius. I bought one and have been very happy with it.
Performance seems the same as the other Civics, no problems with acceleration or anything. Typically I get 42-47 MPG, depending on how much city traffic I'm stuck in. My average MPG since I bought the car is 46.2MPG
I've been very happy with it (it's about a year old now).
For what it's worth, the new Prius is supposed to be much better than the last two years' models.
Honda supposedly will have a hybrid CRV early next year.
The only reason I'd get rid of the Civic Hybrid, is if a Hybrid Element came out next year.
-a.e.mossberg
I've always wondered how the batteries in these modern hybrids hold up in the winter time. Any experiences?
(More than once I've found myself leaving work late at night in -40 degree temperatures, and have been grateful each time that my Saturn [sans block heater] has started flawlessly.)
the s10 blazer is a SUV. It's built off of the S10 pickup chasis, but is sold as a midsize SUV.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Now , driver deaths per million registered vehicle years is important in this report
What is its use ? We don't know how many hours were spent driving and how many hours
spent in a car park. It is stating that given that one car class A caused 1000 deaths
in x registration years it is safer then another car class B that caused 2000 deaths
in x registration years. It is NOT necessarily safer, maybe class A cars were parked
most of the times (for instace try driving a SUV in NY, oh happy joy)
Keeping on reading the report, we see that they considered the "exposition years"
of all models and correctly (somehow) adjusted the results so that exposition
years are accounted in their "confidence intervals". They could have added the
metodology and the calculations, but somehow they forgot. Let's bend over and give
them the benefit of doubt, they in good faith forgot to detail their calculation
methods ; the report keeps track of fatal accidents, doesn't talk about permanent
injuries. Hopefully they'll add it in the future, being on a wheelchair for the
rest of your life is, for someone, nearly as good as death.
Also, and that's the most important thing IMHo, there's no report on which kind of
car caused death. All other conditions equal it is obvious that a medium car hit
by a SUV is going to suffer more damage then the SUV. Maybe both are nearly destroyed
by the accident, but the medium car owner has more chances to die or to receive
permanent injury. That doesn't mean at all that SUVs should be banned, but a SUV
owner should pay more when an accident with a less protected car happens and he/she
is found to be guilty of the accident, for I don't see why the injuried person should
bear the cost of SUV owner privilege of owning a safer more expensive car. Drive that
truck safely or don't drive it at all.
TDI have alot of touque. HP for show and Tourque for go :)
c e.html
p df and checkout the flash
The VWVortex had a week long look at TDI technology
Diesel engines have been proven in europe.
Europe mandated the use of low sulfur. So their diesel engines generate more HP/Torque.
Here in north america, low sulfur diesel will be mandated in 2007 see http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ulsd/prefa
Another advantage to diesel engines is that you can run different types of diesel.
1) Biodiesel. see http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs
2) 100% biomater Biomater can be Vegitible oil or processed animal fats(roadkill and stuff that can't be processed in meat production)
3) Diesel
In fact you can go to KFC and get your fuel there
Greasel sells conversion kits for diesels http://www.greasel.com/
Anywho... Checkout VW's diesel spec sheet http://www.vw.com/art/engines/complete_specs_TDI.
Update: The 2004 Prius will use Nickel-Metal-Hidride batteries. (Also called NiMH.) These are also a 'proven' battery technology. It will still carry a 10 year, 100,000 mile warranty on battery systems.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
80$ bike
500$ electric bike kit (20 mile commute in 45 mins)
2000$ scooter that can get to highway speed
20$ truck rental from home depot for hauling things around
rent a car or rv for extended journeys
gas prices negligable for all
I think what people fail to grasp is that the hybrid system exists primarily for the purpose of recovering the energy of motion of the car and reusing it. Ordinary cars make ZERO use of this energy, except to squander it as heat in the brakes or uselessly compressing air in the cylinders during deceleration.
;-)
This is like pedaling your bike up a hill, then getting off and walking it down the other side. In a hybrid, the energy you spent going up the hill is transfered into the battery on your way back down, and is thus available to let you climb the next hill for free. The only losses (aside from the usual wind speed and friction losses that apply to all cars) are efficiency losses in the recovery system, which are fairly small.
This is why Hybrids like the Prius get BETTER mileage in the city, because they can recover energy from starts and stops, but cannot recover it from wind resistance on the highway.
This kind of system makes so much sense, it is embarrassing that we have spent the last 100 years using twice the fuel we need to do the same job.
And to those who feel that the hybrids are some kind of crippled yuppie guilt machine, I say wake up.
The 2004 Prius is a mid-size, 5 passenger car with all of the amenities of many luxury cars (wireless hands-free entry, voice operated heater/radio/navigation system, 9 speaker JBL stereo, ABS, stability control, side curtain airbags, wireless hands-free cellphone interface for bluetooth enabled cellphones, etc.) and is a pleasing, sporty looking 5-door hatchback. It goes zero to 60 in 10 seconds (about the same as a 4 door Camry). With all this, it gets 60 MPG in the city and 55 on the highway. It sells for between $20-25K depending on options.
I say cars like this are possibly the best cars ever built, from the standpoint of value, usability, efficiency and fun.
The only thing they don't do is cater to the bizarre idea (long promoted by the auto industry and their lap dogs at the car magazines) that everyone should want their daily transportation to perform like a race car. But that is another rant
Actually the Diesel technology is very mature.
An hybrid with a gasoline engine could get better
milage, but still has the same maintenance issues
similar to any typical gasoline engine(except for
extended durations between oil changes/tuneup etc). Also it is difficult to get low cost service
if anything on the electrical side breaksdown.
A diesel car such as one from VW will be wonderful
in terms of MPG, freedom from tuneups and no physically noticeable difference. It would workout even cheaper, if you know how to make your
own biodiesel from recycled veggie oil. One other
thing to mention is that you get much higher torque even at low hp's and significantly reduced
engine wear(partly due to lower rpm of diesel engines, apart from from solid cast iron body to
withstand consistent knocking). For more info
take a look at: http://www.grassoline.com
Is there a federal tax rebate in Canada? I know that Ontario has a $1000 tax rebate (slated to be raised to $2000), but I'm not aware of a rebate from the federal government. Is there one? I'm curious where the "rest of the country" is getting the $1000 rebate that you mentioned.
I own a Honda Insight and would love a federal tax rebate to go with the $1000 that I got back from the Ontario government.
the "everyone moves out of my way on the highway because I look like a cop" factor.
+++ATH0
If you don't like watching your power movement, or
the biofeedback for the MPG based on your driving
patterns, you can easily turn off the LCD screen.
(turning it back on is a bad UI design - different
button sequence entirely...)
Pretty much all non-Navigation touch-screen functions are accessible
using conventional dash buttons. (In the 2004
Prius, if you have the Navigation system, you also
get voice-control, so you really don't need the
display...)
-mrv
When you have a wife and three kids, nearly every trip involving the whole family, in or out of town, makes an economy car undersized. I'd love it if there were hybrid minivans or small SUVs.
I have a nice fuel-efficient 2001 Civic LX for commuting to work, but the family just won't fit in it. Okay, everyone can squeeze into it in an emergency, but it's intolerably cramped. This is why we have a Saturn VUE for my wife, since it seats five, isn't huge, and gets decent MPG.
Yes it has four sides, a top and a bottom. There are various small planes about the hood and windshield, but they're rather standard too.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
what does an SUV give you that a wagon doesn't?
Volkswagen Passat Wagon:
Front Head Room: 37.8 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 55.8 in.
Rear Head Room: 37.9 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 54.6 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.5 in.
Rear Leg Room: 35.3 in.
Luggage Capacity: 36 cu. ft.
Maximum Cargo Capacity: 55 cu. ft.
Maximum Seating: 5
What more do you need?
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Toyota is running print ads in select publications (saw one in Technology Review) boasting about their latest generation of hybrid drive. The specifically mention the acceleration performance it can offer in conjunction with a v6, which sounds like they are targeting it at much larger platforms than your average Prius, or even a Camry.
The ad also strongly implies that they will be selling the tech in cars beyond the prius within the next year.
Companies are also taking advantage of the recently establised standards for higher voltage electrics to do hybrid-like things. They are replacing the flywheel, starter & alternator with a motor-generator and a larger battery.
This allows them to capture braking energy in the battery, and use it to enhance acceleration, and to kill the engine at stoplights and quick-start it (like the current hybrids)
I find the Honda Insight to be quite nice looking--not ugly at all. Of course, I may be biased since I drive an Insight.
I really like the Insight for its uniqueness. Multiple times I've had people shout "Sweet car!" as I drove by, so I don't think I'm alone in finding the Insight to be sexy.
This will never get read. Too many comments already.
The only input I have is this.
My car breaks down I have a lot of options. I have a friend whose Father and 2 brothers are great mechanics. I have a mechanic about 10 miles away that is honest and cheap.
Oil changes can be done almost anywhere.
When the day comes that I want to junk it I can take it to a junk yard and not have to concern myself with disposing of hazardous materials. I could be wrong, but don't those vehicles have lots of batteries and such?
If your vehicle never breaks down then you are in good shape.
Good luck.
or better yet go to Grassolean and find out how you can run on vegetable oil with no modifications!
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
God help you in an accident. And those who may be involved in your rescue. Sulphuric acid. Lethal voltages. When it comes to hybrids, nobody seems to talk seriously about safety.
I'm an insight (5 spd man) driver.
25,768 miles @ 58.9 mpg.
True. The pickup isn't great. 0-60 is about 10-12 seconds depending on what octane gas, how aggrasive you are on shifting, and most importantly, battery charge.
Firstly, driving a hybrid isn't like a "normal" car. You gotta learn how to drive. This means keeping the foot relaxed, not reving the engine for fun, and giving extra long braking distances (use the motor to its fullest. doing so raises mileage AND saves on brake jobs.)
City driving is a sinch. First and 2nd gear are farily short (engine spins up quick). The easiest way to drive city is to be hard on the gas at first, then when you are up to speed (30-40 mph) just relax that foot. The mile will go up about 10 mpg. Be patient and the engine will "lean" out and thats when you hit the magic numbers of 50+.
Once you hit the highway, its not hard to get 60+ mpg. Just keep a steady speed, anticipate traffic ahead, and slow down on up hills, and speed up (gain momentuem) on the down grades. Keep a moderate speed (around 60-70), keep the foot relaxed and the high numbers flow right in.
Lastly, raise the tire preassure a bit. I run all tires at 40 psi. use synthetic oil and buy a K&N cotton-mesh filter. Doing so gives you the added convenience of less maintence and higher mileage.
Higher tire psi raises mileage.
synthetic oil lowers engine friction, increasing engine life, and requires less (to none) changing.
K&N cotton mesh filters need be cleaned once every 100k miles, and can be reused for up to 10 times. (that is 1 million miles)
So, from an Insight driver, this is my advice to you.
Well, I used to be...until the ford exploder came along.
http://www.convictbob.com/insight/
Now that she's gone. There is a hole inside me.
Basic table of speeds vs mileage (aprox. from memory)
0-60 acceleration, shifting at red line: 25mpg
60mph, 70-80 mpg
70 mph. 70 mpg
80 mph 60 mpg
100 mph ~40 (from msg board)
110 (3rd, red line) 25 mpg (from msg board)
Grump
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
I had a Honda Insight for a year. I loved that car, never any problems. But I WAS in a 45 mile-per-hour collision with a Lincoln Town Car. (not my fault, FYI) The car was destroyed, more or less. But I walked away with nothing but some bent up glasses from the airbag.
Then I bought a 2003 Toyota Prius, which is good because we had a baby shortly afterwords and it has a rear-seat. I was rear-ended in that car 2 weeks later and also sustained no injury. The car was repaired and has been great now for about a year. No mechanical problems. I love both of the cars. I did test-drive a Honda Civic-Hybrid before deciding I liked the Prius as it was more technologically innovative.
--DavidM
Get a Volkswagen TDI diesel, they rock in the hills/mountains, get similar (sometimes better mileage) and then follow the TDI owners who run Biodiesel - If you run a 25% diesel/75% grease mixture, you will simply destroy the hybrids on both petrol fuel efficiency AND emissions. Running biodiesel drives what is left of the oxides down in the emissions, although you smell like fries.
Biodiesel is the answer-
As others have stated, current VW TDIs routinely get 50mpg.
Shit- my 198x Audi 4000 has a 1.6 Diesel- I get ~65mpg.
Of course, it's slow as fuck cause it only has ~6x hp or so, but whatever.
I browse at +5 Flamebait- moderation for all or moderation for none.
That's not really true. The 365-pound figure is just a performance and efficiency guideline. See Is it a problem to exceed the 365 lb (165 kg) weight limit? from the very informative InsightCentral.net.
The first Hybrid SUV will be here soon. Ford claims 40MPG in the FWD version and 35MPG for the AWD version. IMO, this and the new Prius (beautiful design IMO) will be the first high demand hybrids. The Ford will have nearly 200HP combined from the 4cyl and electric engine combined.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/
Pet Peeve: I really don't have a peeve and I really don't give a damn if you do. I gave up on making you happy ages ago.
There is nothing inherently safe about liberty. That's why so many people died protecting it.
But, the battery replacement shouldn't really cost ANYTHING. It's covered on my Prius for 10 years/100,000 miles. And as with any car that old -- if I have to put that much money into it, I'll probably just buy a new car.
I keep one hidden under the spare tire for my Canyonero where hopefully no one else will see it. Its got a brown paper bag inside with eye holes already cut out in case I ever have to drive it.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
perhaps the reduced emissions are worth more to the purchaser than the extra cost in money.
Maybe, but reduction in emissions is going to closely track gas consumption. An efficient gas powered car is going to give you most of that reduction.
The real question is whether the life cycle environmental impact of a hybrid vehicle is going to be better than a highly efficient gas only vehicle. When you consider the extra batteries (lead) etc. it becomes highly questionable.
This is one of the few cars that I'd recommend leasing - the powertrain is new (version 1.0 is just as bad in autos as in software) and unusually complex.
That may be true, but driving the Lupo 3L in "Eco" mode is a bit like slow torture. Yes, a hybrid Lupo could probably get 130 mpg without breaking a sweat, but it's not a "solution" that appeals to a lot of people. I'd settle for a larger model 100 mpg with AC, CVT transmission, some good pickup, and seats that don't warp your spine. The Mercedes Smart Roadster would be a good place to start...
Da Blog
The Eco-Cars are a joke, the technology needs to mature far more before they become any real replacement for the automobile. I drive a good old V8 Car that gets horrible milage, but nobody's going to cut me off, and i feel safer with the option of power at my shoes.
I drove a friends Hybrid civic half way across the country, with 3 people in it, all our luggage, and a bunch of stuff strapped to the top (kayaks, bikes, etc.). We went thru mountains, deserts, thunderstorms, etc. The car did great... of course it couldn't pull much over 80, and our gas mileage was greatly reduced by drag from the stuff strapped on top, but it felt just like driving a non-hybrid car except that we got slightly better gas mileage. My understanding is that the hybrid Civic gets its best mileage in a city environment since it recharges the battery when you break and the assist works best at lower speeds, but I'm no expert.
Where are the Prius hacking sites?
I bought a Toyota Prius hybrid last year. I was the 4th person to buy one in this company of 120 people, so had the benefit of their experiences to guide me. There are now 5 of us with a Prius. Four of them are used for 90 mile commutes per day while mine is used primarily for regular 1000 mile round trips. I also use mine for 12 miles of surface street driving per day to/from work.
All five have proven to be flawless in operation. The commute group averages between 45 and 55 mpg on their daily commutes. When they are in very heavy traffic, they get considerably better mileage. I get an average of 40 mpg in my surface street travels. On my long (7 hours each way) trips from the Los Angeles South Bay area, I get 55 mpg if I drive 75 mph and I get 45-50 mpg if I drive 90 mph. That is with the air conditioner running, by the way. I had one stretch, on cruise control with no slowing or accelerating, on level ground, 75 mph, no a/c, where I got an average of 85 mpg for over 30 min! I have absolutely no trouble keeping up with traffic, even on long, steep climbs.
One thing I can pass on is perhaps more telling than anything. My wife drove her new BMW 330CI convertible over here, took the Prius back home, then refused to give up the Prius. I had to drive the BMW home and bring the Prius back myself. She is now going to buy a new Prius when they come out next month since she misses this one so much.
Pat
You can't possibly think that in the event of an accident a motocycle offers you more protection. I wouldn't say that driving is a right, but driving with a license in a licensed vehicle is. An I hear the the complaints of motorcycle riders about assholes in cars all of the time from people at work. Please, car drivers are not going out of their way to swerve into bike riders. If anything other drivers are trying to give them a wide birth. The thing is, motorcycles are harder to see, and its harder to judge their distance. Think of it this way, motorcycles in traffic are like lions runing in an elephant stampeed. Yeah, they accellerate faster and have more manuverability, but they've chosen to run amongst larger, less responsive traffic.
Yeah, they get better mileage and diesel is -marginally- cheaper. ($.12/l here)
The problem, unfortunately, is that the added cost of a new diesel cancels out the gain from the mileage. Unlike old gasoline engines, diesels begin to have problems starting in the cold weather very quickly and require much more maintenance and care to the glow plugs and fuel system to sotp this from happening.
Nevermind if it gets cold enough, diesel lines freeze. I had to stick a heater in the engine of a co-worker's TDI Jetta last winter.
If you really care about saving money, do what I did and get a old-ass light Honda Civic, gut it, have the engine redone, and enjoy your 50mpg.
..don't panic
Additionally, with the diesel engine, your pickup is good and the power is outstanding. I have hauled 2200lbs of flooring over the Appalachians in this car (uHaul trailer). When hauling that much weight, it is often neccesary to downshift to 4th gear to get up steep mountains. However, I averaged 32 mpg on that trip.
Try that in a hybrid
I recognize that many people are diesel adverse, but I recommend doing the math on pollution first. Mile for mile, I output significantly less CO and only slightly more particulate matter than a normal sedan.
Do yourself a favor and test drive a VW TDI. You won't regret it.
BTW, I am not associated with VW, apart from being a satisfied customer
Just curious-- which non-hybrid do you have? Is it automatic? Just to add another stat, my non-hybrid 2001 civic HX CVT automatic averages about 37 mpg in my everyday driving, with air conditioning about 75% of the time. It does a hair better (39 or so) on freeway-only trips. That's based on actual gas used vs. mileage, not an in-dash meter or epa estimate.
If you knew more about your models, I might be more inclined to believe your citations. However your .30 Cd for 1991 240SX SE carries the following note:
However the .26 CD is from nissan themselves - sorry, but I cannot provide a citation, as I have no idea where I read it, so you're just going to have to continue to disbelieve me.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Don't get the Civic though, get the Toyota Prius, an altogether better vehicle with better mileage than the Civic (on occasion we've managed 500 miles on an *11* gallon tank on the highway). Our average combined mileage over the last 3000k miles or so has been 46.5 mpg. Also, it is a very sweet car with more power than the Civic, smoother powertrain, roomier cabin, etc. Maybe the Civic is less expensive though??? I can't remember the Civic pricing because it became a non-issue as soon as we tested the Prius.
is so redneck! I live in South Carolina and I can't stand that 'word'.
You don't have to replace it with "youse guys" either - most people miss the fact that the word "you" is perfectly acceptable as a 3rd person plural pronoun.
Another thing that annoys me is that here, the plurality of coins is irrelevent. No matter how many cents are involved in a given conversation, they always come out singular. For example:
"Hey, any o' y'all got twenny-fi' cent I can borra?"
The rapper 50 cent really got the inspiration for his name from my friend Cletus.
It is also because most people in the US still use "regular" oil, not synthetic. Using a full synthetic oil is much much better for your car, and greatly extends the period between which you need to do an oil change. My understanding is that most people in Europe have used Synthetic oil for quite some time now, but I could be wrong about that.
Also, it is a big scam that kind of leftover from older dirtier cars, when oil really did get dirty quickly, but even with conventional oil today you don't have to change that often.
Also, when the gasoline engine is running, it charges a bigger battery, so that when you're below 25 mph, you aren't running on gas.
Geeks ride motorcycles?? Where do you put your briefcase?
So, what I'm wondering about this sort of vehicle is the following:
- how much energy / pollution does it take to make all the batteries that go in the vehicles?
- what's the lifespan of the batteries and how much will they cost to replace?
- how will the batteries get disposed of?
Thanks.
Todd
-- !todd erases a red dot! I steal music on the internet.
is often an argument for not getting one, when calculated at list price. However, all you need to get is a $2000 tax credit (doable in many states, and will be doable in the entire U.S. if negotiations go right on the energy bill) or negotiate the price down $2000 (I did) to have the Honda Civic Hybrid cost the same as the Honda Civic EX. Therefore, this argument is only valid if you're actually going to get something that's around $4000 cheaper (Honda Civic DX with AM radio?)...
Often, though, after people disqualify a hybrid with the argument using list price, they go out and buy a mid-size Accord ($25,000, or $3K more) or an SUV ($35,000, or $15K more!) out of vanity for "how it makes them look."
If you'd like an argument for how something makes one look, compare the price of an SUV (~5 year depreciating asset) versus, say, a hybrid and plastic surgery. They're about the same cost, and I think one would make out better with the latter...
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
According to the EPA website, the TDI NewBeetle with it's lean 45MPG consumption scores a miserable 1/10 for particulate emissions (those causing smog and other resperatory hazards)... placing it neatly alongside the Behemoth-Class SUVs.
I'm not saying TDI vehicles are anywhere near as bad as those bloated SUVs, but they are considerably worse than the hybrids. Performance has its price.
- Josh
That there isn't a tinkerer's market for converting existing vehicles to gas/electric hybrids. There's a project I wouldn't mind undertaking, if only battery technology weren't still in the stone age. You could save loads of dough as well.
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
>If it is hybrid it only adds weight, complexity
>and increases maintenance costs and it cannot
>recoup more then around 20% of the used energy.
Hybrids are not a dead end. Hybrid drivetrains will be used with fuel cells; hybrid development is therefore necessary to fuel cell technology. Fuel cell vehicles can only get about a 150-mile range today, so the hybrid drivetrain will be necessary to extend their range to equal conventional autos.
Also, the engineers that developed the Honda hybrids claim only a 19% *loss* of energy in regenerative braking.
I agree that they do add front-end and maintenance costs. There are parts in a hybrid that are not in a conventional engine.
However, with tax credits towards the purchase of a hybrid (I'd rather give it to Japan or U.S. car manufacturers than the Saudis under the points of U.S. bayonets), the initial costs are offset. Replacement batteries are expected to be $800 (they're ~$2500 now) in 3 years, which ain't bad. I think the trade-off is worth it.
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
And speaking of the look of the Insight, it's really just a modern take on the CRX. They're strikingly similar in appearance.
That's because they're just a CRX with a body kit. :) Or so I read a few years back...
Like what I said? You might like my music
There's another posting that is GREAT for info and links, so I'll stick to side stuff I don't see there. I've looked at hybrids a few times and will buy as soon as one doesn't hurt too much. I don't need a car yet, so I've happily procrastinated 18 months on getting a new car just hoping something better would come out.
Honda had a 2-seater (Insight) that I imagine would be cool for commuters. 2 seats, room for a suitcase, but no room for a family-sized grocery run or backseat for kids. Scratched off my list as a result. Sad to cross it off my list... I've heard people exceeding 70 mpg on this puppy. In fact, I read one hilarious article about people that so obsess the mpg's that they drive in their socks to better finesse the gas peddle. I love it.
Honda's Civic hybrid: cool in a sensible-shoes sort of way. Might buy. Dealbreaker last year was that it sounded too much like henry ford's old rules on paint for cars (any color as long as it's black): The car didn't have options like keyless entry, keyless trunk, came in 2 colors outside and one color inside. For the same money, I could buy a better-equipped Accord. For a non-hybrid civic, there was $2000 price difference, and before the proposed tax incentives for hybrids I calculated out the 15 mpg I'd save would take me over a decade to recoup my savings:
Shifting 30 to 45 mpg priced at $1.60 per gallon, 10k miles per year (Hey, my 93 car is at 106k and I used to cross the country twice a year for grad school!): $178 per year savings (1.60 / 45 * 10000 vs 1.60 / 30 * 10000).
With tax incentives that are now in place, those almost are a free car payment each year. Yumm.
Toyota's Prius: no absolute reason against it comes to mind. It had some of the same numbers above on the price premium vs. a non-HEV. Oh, and rereading other posts I do remember the funky dash constellation (if you haven't seen it, think Jeep CJ goes digital... everything in center of dash, way out of your usual line-of-sight). Perhaps the dash needs to be identical to a regular car. Or not. Maybe we're due for a change, eh? I was fine with it; the car ran fine before I understood the dash, but it'd baffle the shit out of my grandma if I handed her the keys without instructions.
The new Ford SUV: was supposed to come out in '03, now I've read recently it's been pushed back to '04. Given the number of major design oopsies I've encountered in each of these, I can't say it's wise to change buying plans on a 'maybe next year's model' sort of deal. If I get annoyed with my car this winter, I'll buy my favorite non-hybrid and wait for the next car purchase to re-evaluate things.
Early adopter risk: most carry a 10-year electrical system waranty, so the waranty is enough to soothe worries I have of having to eat a few thousand bucks in new-battery costs if they fail after a few years.
First-owner sales have been weak, according to people that sell 'em that I've talked to (but I'm in a VERY rural, non-commuter, redneck sort of area).
I checked resale on eBay: depreciation on older models seemed minor enough to bolster my confidence that they'll hold value.
Right now, my wife has a Durango to handle all them soccer-mom details. We'll buy a hybrid SUV to replace it, if one's out by then and it isn't glaringly flawed.
Oh, and I saw something that said that some vendor (Audi?) was looking to put limited hybrid capability (the electromechanical mechanism at the wheel, I suspect) into a car of theirs to give it all-wheel-drive in a pinch... cooo-ool. If that pans out, I think you'll see hybrid become like Antilock Brakes Systems: a detail that just trickles down from luxury cars to lower-priced models until everything has a handful of the features.
Of course, my crystal ball reading on the average American's love affair with SUV's and Pickups says in the same timeframe we'll all be driving solo in the HOV lane in our HEV-exempted 5-ton humvee-3's that have been miraculously improved through the
On the Washington side of the border, you'll see Oregonians sitting in their cars waiting for an attendent to pump their gas, realizeing their are none. Sometimes, they honk their horns too :p
,and the attendent was smoking a cigarette :o
Likewise, on the oregon side of the OR/CA border, you'll see californians pumping their own gas, and a gas attendend will come screaming from the office yelling, "You can't do that!"
I don't know where they hire some of their attendents tho. One time, I pulled into a gas station
If you really want to get a hybrid car, consider looking for a used Toyota Prius, perhaps sold by some Yuppie asshole who only bought it to be trendy, and wants to trade up to a Mini Cooper S now that Minis are considered the New Hotness.
No, I define a yuppie asshole as one of the 50,000 people on the road every rush hour, driving alone, too slow in their SUV, eating egg mcmuffins and chatting on the phone. btw, it's not all about money. Ever consider where the pounds of carbon waste go when they exit your tailpipe? Someone's lungs. Maybe your own.
Plus ten times the pose value!
Drill baby drill - on Mars
I just pulled stuff off the web. Take it or leave it.
.29 Cd...
.26 back on your car, and can't seem to do as well now with their top sports car (the track version)?
.28 Cd.
However, Edmunds states that the track model of the brand new 350z has special underbody that helps it achieve the low
Now you tell me how Nissan managed to achieve
I dare you to find any production street vehicle from 1989 or before (or whatever year your "sports car" is from) that has below
Keep dreaming. It's good to love your old car, I love my old car.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Then you should buy an American hybrid. American cars break all the time. ;)
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
I've been driving a 2003 Prius since mid_march, and have to say that it is a fabulous idea. Most tanks are better-than-posted economy, it has the geek factor (got the GPS nav system in it), heavily reduced emissions (emission testing exempt in Virginia) plus with Virginia's "special clean fuel" plates (hybrids qualify for them here) I got an all-access pass to the HOV lanes at least through July 2004, no time/passenger restrictions.
For those who point out that fuel economy is not as good as some cars, I agree. You CAN get better mileage out of a Geo Metro than a Prius. However, your Geo will emit an infinitely greater amount of emissions than my Prius will when we're both stuck in traffic as my engine sits shut down. Plus, you get more car with the Prius than a Metro.
Heck, when I was in college, I could drive my Prius up the parking ramp on campus to the 3rd or 4th level if I was careful, and not run the engine at all. A light touch will get you up to 30-40 MPH from a dead stop before the engine will kick in. Try that with a regular car.
Do you pay a premium for the technology? Sure. Nobody said that environmentally-friendly was cheap.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
My driving instructor -- a former traffic police officer -- used to have a theory that the roads would be safer if everyone had a Side Impact Crushing System, a spike on the steering wheel instead of the airbag, underpowered steering and always-locking brakes. That way, the driver would have to understand how to avoid an accident in the first place, instead of relying on their tank to protect them when the "inevitable" happens.
Some days, after watching a particularly absurd manoeuvre by a SUV, Volvo or executive car driver, I wonder if I was the only one who thought she was joking.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
A UK TV driving programme sorted fact from fiction on this one -- and the safety record of SUV-type vehicles generally -- not so long ago.
They filmed a well-known SUV brand being driven at 30mph around a fairly easy driving course. It was "lucky" they kitted it out with safety gear, because the stunt driver rolled it with no trouble at all. Without the safety gear, there's no way in hell anyone in that vehicle would have walked away from the resulting mess.
The presenters proceeded to note that similar behaviour was possible with all the other major brand SUVs they were trying out, too. Then they showed a range of cars on the course, taking it at considerably higher speed with no apparent instability at all.
No, I'm afraid the rollover problem with high CoG vehicles is all too real. Denying that this problem exists if you're driving such a vehicle is just asking for it.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
www.biodeisel.org natch.
I'm currently averaging 4.5L/100km (about 52mpg). My most efficient run was a 360km return trip from Ottawa to Kingston where I averaged 4.0L/100km (about 58mpg) for the trip.
If you're driving in colder climates, have a look at a review that I wrote that covers some of the cold-weather quirks I've encountered.
--The more you know, the less you know.
...should be:
...and you giggle about the 20 year old cobol program that still holding the payroll system together. Cars are ~100 years old. Why haven't we moved away towards this obviously superior technology as a whole? One word: False/Negative Marketing paid for by the rich fucks whose portfolios are padded with exxon, mobil, etc. Just think about it.
Why WOULDN'T you buy one of these?!
1910 technology vs today's technology. Hell yes it is better, both for the environment and, heck, even on your pocketbook in terms of gas usage. If everyone in this damn state (cali) drove these, it is not unlikely that we could ween ourselves away from our relationship with the middle east...
Also..
WHY aren't there government subsidies for these? Businesses seem to be getting lots of tax credits these days. How about a tax credit for trading in a crappy gas-vehicle for one of these sweet puppies?
With hybrid cars, the main component of the fuel savings is the weight reduction and the displacement decrease in the gasoline component of the engine. The car becomes loud and annoying to maneuver (tiny, TINY wheels!) If you are willing to put up with that, why not pay 40% of the cost and get an Echo? If you don't have a stigma against diesels, go with a Jetta TDI. Phenomenal fuel economy with few compromises. Don't get an Insight, though. Don't. You will hate yourself.
.. as in hardware, that is. I looked at that site years ago, and it's pretty clear that they'll NEVER produce anything. I gave up long ago.
If you follow these plans you can build a stylish 80's looking sports car that gets 128 MPG! This plan is not even for a hybrid. It's a straight diesel engine.
I do not work for this company, it's just a cool looking car that I hope to build one day
You talk better than you fool!
Motorcycle: Much cooler ride.
Hybrid mileage: Kicks a Harley's ass. Harley's get 30-40 MPG. My hybrid gets 54 MPG. And I can drive it in the snow and rain.
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
This makes for a good argument to not raise federal taxes on gasoline to European levels.
Just imagine what the government would use that gas tax for. Wars to get more gas, more than likely. It would be seen as an investment with a return on value.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
I did not need an SUV. I could have made do with a smaller/cheaper/more environmentaly friendly rollerskate, but I went for the biggest pickup I could get. I bought it for two very important reasons, neither of which has anything to do with need.
1. After dump trucks and 18 wheelers, I am king of the fucking road. It is good to be king.
2. It pisses off all the right people.
In answer to the sorely misguided youth who asked the question about hybrids that started this flame war, GET A TRUCK. You want fuel economy, get a diesel truck. Anybody who tells you a Honda Civic is going to keep you alive in an accident even half as well as a full sized pickup is not your friend.
And to all the oh-so-superior Euro types who think our gas is too cheap in North America, here's a news flash: There is no honour in being milked like a cow, ladies and gentlemen.
Our gas costs almost exactly the same as yours. The difference in the price at the pump is tax. You keep voting for the socialists, they will keep taking your money. Moo!
By the way Nissan could obviously reduce the 350Z's drag more, they just didn't, for styling considerations. The 240SX looks somewhat neuter, probably because of things done to reduce drag.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
After dinner tonight, inspired by this story, I went back up to my local Honda dealership and test drove a 2003 Civic Hybrid with a manual transmission. My girlfriend has the CVT, I want the stick-shift. :-)
During the test drive, I mentioned the idea to the saleswoman that I disliked the rims and would also want to replace the tires with Falkens as mentioned in my post.
According to her, this isn't a good idea.
The rims are designed to keep drag down while still being somewhat interesting to look at. They have no spokes and very few distortions that would cause unnecessary wind resistence. Furthermore, one of the reasons the diameter of the rims on hybrids are so low, is because they have less rotational inertia. The greater the dimeter, the more weight you have father from the axis which requires more power to get turning.
As for the tires, they are specially chosen as well. Many other people have mentioned in various threads (including an Ars Technical article) that the Honda Insight has really hard tires with high PSI that do not have a great deal of grip. The situation with the Civic Hybrid is not unlike this. While the tires are fit the norm more closely, they are a little harder than most. Replacing them with softer tires like Falkens (that have different drag characteristics because of their uni-directional treads) will impact fuel economy significantly.
To summarize, the saleswoman mentioned something that should be obvious to most Slashdot geeks: the hybrids are engineered with everything in mind. It's all "hand-in-hand". Screw something up, and the impact might be greater than you'd think.
I realized previously that replacing the rims or tires would change the dynamics, but now I am wondering if the potential draw-backs are worth it.
So, do not merely take my advice and go replacing the tires on your shiny new hybrid. Check with the Honda dealership. They aren't engineers, but they might have cheat sheets that can tell them (and you) what will get fucked up when you start fiddling with things.
Join Tor today!
Driving non-agressively in my 1997 2.2L standard .34 CD (not spectacular at all).
2-door Dodge Neon I get 41 highway and 33 city -- and the car was very cheap to buy, there are no modifications and the car has 132hp and a
In the end, the Prius, for example, can only do at most 10% better then that so it does not justify twice the cost. I bet if I made my Neon as aerodynamic as the Prius (.26 CD) and put on the same tires (less rolling resistance) I could get near the same gas mileage as the Prius.
Gas mileage is also *heavily* dependant on driving style due to the laws of conservation of energy -- the top things overall that I found increase it are:
1) Standard transmission -- almost all cars with a
standard get better gas mileage then an
automatic.
2) Drive 55 -- Going from 75mph on the highways to
55 increased gas mileage by 26%!
3) Anticipate lights (let the car roll to slow
down when you see a red light ahead of time
rather then breaking at the last minute) saves
a lot, too.
4) Coast down hills
5) Accelerate slowly
If you follow these rules and buy a compact car you'll get near the hybrid's gas mileage with no fancy technology.
It should be interesting to note that while Honda sells these for about 20,000$, Honda manufactures them at 30,000$ (according to a salesperson at Herson's Honda in Rockville, MD).
Hahahaha. According to my salesperson, I need a new car.
Enjoy your job, make lots of money, work within the law. Choose any two.
No I did not copy you; in fact I believe you copied me! There's a lawsuit in there somewhere... :-)
On a more serious note, probably just a coincidence since I've been signing my name like that since about 1990, and have only been reading slashdot for the last couple of years.
With the number of people in the world named "John" it was bound to happen sooner or later.
JOhn (the original).
What's with Europe getting all the cool diesels and the US not?
You can get a VW (Jetta/Golf/Bug) diesel for about the same price as a gas one. It will get about the same milege as the hybrids. It has fewer compromises.
In Europe we can get a BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Kia, etc. with a diesel! Many in similar models to what is sold in the US but with superior milege and torque from the diesel. Where can I buy a nice new 545i diesel????
You fill the tank of a Prius, put in in Drive, and go. The onboard software faithfully simulates all the artifacts of a 20th century car with an automatic transmission, so it feels much the same. Set the center display to control the sound system, and you're driving a quiet sedan. My local dealer tells me they're selling to normal people now that the word's gotten out. Before that it was engineers, and before that it was people who'd built their own electric cars.
:-)
The quiet has an unexpected psychological benefit. When you're stopped in a traffic jam or just barely creeping forward, the gas engine doesn't turn on. Somehow the absence of idling reduces the stress level of not moving.
It takes a few weeks to get used to having the gas engine cut out at stop lights. Even though I've had other cars that did the same thing
The Prius continuously variable transmission is the first automatic that didn't drive me crazy. Because it's continuous, it doesn't shift unexpectedly or trap you in the wrong gear. The implementation (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car9.htm) is a thing of beauty, and a major reason the Society of Automotive Engineers voted it Best Engineered Car.
Acceleration is better than the Corolla we rented after an SUV smashed the Prius. It's *just* good enough to merge safely on one of the stupid uphill hairpin onramps where I live (but no safety margin). The 2004 Prius takes two seconds off the 0-60 time, bringing it to about 10.5.
Cornering and emergency handling are a delight.
Reliability? There's a Prius in service as a Yellow Cab in Vancouver BC. At last report, it was at 150,000 miles with the original battery pack. Tight charge control by the brilliant onboard computer lets Toyota offer an 8yr/100,000 mile warranty on the hybrid components. Toyota's been buying up battery packs from high-mileage cars for study. The word is that there's no significant deterioration, and Toyota's starting to say publicly that the battery pack can last the life of the car (by which they mean fifteen years).
Short-term reliability? The warranty claim rate is the lowest in the Toyota fleet, *including* the Camry.
Cold weather? It doesn't get that cold where I live but one owner in Minnesota experimentally left his outside overnight at -22F. Started the first time, took only a couple of seconds longer than usual. Cold weather can drop the gas mileage down to the low 40's.
Cargo space? It's a sedan and can't tow a trailer. Wait for the 2004, which is a hatchback and has interior room close to that of a Camry.
Drawbacks? It takes a while to get used to stealth mode and to the brakes. The tires are frequently out of stock. You can't get it repaired at Joe's Garage in Wide Spot, Okladaho. There's pretty much only one place selling mods, and I'm *not* going to risk Slashdotting him.
It's been a thoroughly satisfactory car viewed just as a car. The quiet, the fuel economy and the elegant technology are bonuses. (boni?)
Hybrids use Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries which are safe to landfill. There are no environmental issues with hybrid batteries.
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
The batteries are Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH), not lead/acid. NiMH batteries can be landfilled legally.
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you wouldn't see any difference.
Do they perform well in the city? Other than getting used to not hearing the engine run while driving in slow traffic, you won't notice a difference.
How about on long road trips?No difference from any other car. The numbers on the car are roughly 115 horsepower for 2765 pounds empty weight
FYI, the location-specific advantage deals with how certain states classify hybrids with respect to high occupancy vehicle (HOV) restrictions. My current state, Virginia, allows me to pay a little extra for my registration and with "clean special fuel" plates run HOV with only the driver in the car. I understand California does something similar.
If you want a geek car, you want the Mazda RX-8.
Slate posted an article explaining why it's the geekiest car on the road a month or so ago, so I won't re-has the articles.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087172/
Of course, if all you want is a slug car then go all out with your bad self and those hybrids. Hybrids are for suburban mommies, not geeks.
Put a poster up of the cutaway for a rotary engine - then watch your workmates come talk engineering with you.
I recall a similar difference in going to Palo Alto from San Francisco: Drive: -Walk to parking space 5 min (this is SF) -Drive down to PA - about 45 minutes, provided it wasn't rush hour. The thing about CA is there is *always* traffic, even at 11:00 at night, but at least it moves. Take the bus: -walk to subway stop (what do they call these things in Germany - ubahns right? Sort of like a newer trolley) -subway to market st. (25 min) -run! to bus station (5 min) -bus to Palo Alto (1 hr-1.5 hrs) -walk to wherever (10-20 min) Take the train: -first part is same as bus, except you go to the train station. -train takes about an hr - but goes all the way to San Jose! -walk So if the traffic wasn't bad, even though SF has a really good transportation (comparing to the rest of rest of the country!), it takes considerably longer. But one benefit - you can read on the train/bus. As another poster said, if you can bike, that's probably the best. Biking in SF was great! -
I want an aquada, its a sports car is a speed boat, man if it could fly it would be perfect!
James
Another thing people don't realize - ice is ice, whether you have 4 wheel drive or not, you're going to slip.
So I agree buying an SUV is all about image, which is handily used by the advertisers as they show SUVs plowing through the snowdrifts. My brother bought an Escape, they thought of buying a minivan, but the wife just couldn't see herself in one of 'em. Now they're thinking of getting one. Really, if you look at some of them, especially the Ford Expedition, they look like an elevated mini-van.
If it's a major enough accident that you have to worry about the transmission, control system or even the electric motor you would probably have more worries about hospital bills. The fuel driven engine is still a 4 cylinder japanese engine that you can get parts for, and the bodywork is still bodywork.
Sure, buy an electric car and become part of the problem.
In a lot of countries outside of the USA oil is taxed, so at times cost of petrol (gas to those in the USA) is close to one US dollar per litre (around $3.70 per gallon). A higher fuel won't limit the number of SUVs much - they're becoming popular even in countries with high fuel costs.
I don't drive one myself, but they are suppose to get better mileage in the city than on the highway....
If you must!
I'm currently averaging 4.5L/100km (52mpg) a tank (tank holds 50L). My most efficient run was from Ottawa to Kingston and back (360km) where I averaged 4.0L/100km (58mpg) for the whole trip.
;-)
As the saying goes, YMMV.
--The more you know, the less you know.
I tried to point out that every situation is different.
Obviously, renting is a bad choice for any several-times-a-week usage is dumb. But it's possible that what you need is a minivan... again, I don't know. You can get a towing hitch on lots of vehicles besides an SUV, also (it depends on what you'll need to tow).
All I'm saying is, do the calculations. If renting costs you $300/year, what's the SUV cost you to drive to work every day?
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
I've owned a pretty wide variety of vehicles (SUVs, Vans, sports cars) and the one car I've had that generates more interest (by far) than all the other cars combined is my 2002 Prius.
I've had people waiting around the parking lot for me to get back, ask me about the car, to pop the trunk and to see the dashboard in action. People will also give me "thumbs up" while I'm driving, pointing out the car. My wife has had the same experiences, which kind of freaks her out.
I'm surprised that no other Civic/Prius Hybrid owners haven't commented on this.
myke
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
yea...
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
I drive a large (Dodge Ram 1500) truck specifically because I'd prefer to be the stronger car in an accident.
1. a Ram 1500 is not a large truck, try a Ram 2500 Cummins sometime (not mine, I drive a 35mpg Nissan...dad actually uses the truck)
2. a pickup/SUV is only the "stronger" car if you're involved in a crash with another car - pickups and SUVs usually have body-on-frame construction, which IS strong and rigid, which means your soft pulpy body takes most of the decceleration force in a crash with an immovable object. Sedans and such have crumple zones and passenger compartment cages to absorb all that energy, and it does work a lot better (I'm just too lazy to check it out.) And you're a lot more likely to kill the person in the car you hit...you were sounding reasonable up until you spouted off the "stronger car" drivel.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
I just picked up a '92 4wd Loyale... for those of who who aren't Subaru nuts ;o), it's basically a four wheel drive compact station wagon. 4 cylinder, 90 horsepower, can fit the spare tire behind the engine 'neath the hood, fully loaded (everything power) with the exception of a cup holder.
She (yes, it's a *she*... cars are like boats, or at least they should be) gets above 25 MPG... closer to 30. Easier to repair, too... easy enough that I've replaced an half-axle in a college parking lot, using tools usually found in any handyman's garage.
220,000 miles. Paid $850. Not only am I avoiding the bad gas mileage of the SUV's, I'm actually fixing my car ;o)... rather than just replacing it. Compared to the monthly payment on a new SUV, repairing it is pretty cheap. And I'm not sending it off to the scrap heap... what gets done with all those old vehicles, anyhow?
But that doesn't address my point. To most people, gasoline is not a huge expense. The number of people who could not afford to get to work if fuel prices doubled is small (and the benefit of their jobs is probably marginal at best); the number of people who couldn't afford it if they got some kind of reduction in other taxes is smaller still. The cost of fuel is only a fraction of the total cost of driving, too; as a matter of public policy, do we even want people to take low-paying jobs so far out of their way... and drive solo?
Yet despite all the whining about how expensive fuel is, cars like the smaller Hyundais and Geo Metros and Ford Focuses are still subsidized as loss-leaders while the profit centers of the automotive industry are things like 4x4 pickups. The "will of the majority", as shaped by Madison Avenue marketing, is that we burn ever more dinosaur squeezings in ever-bigger engines. I don't see you offering a solution. To do that you would also have to (as good as) outlaw the occupations of people whose jobs require such things. In the case of pickup trucks, that includes farmers and building contractors. Know why there is a two-tier system of CAFE standards, one for cars and one for light trucks? You should have; you certainly do now.You weren't around during the oil price shocks and "energy crisis", whereas I was just starting to become aware of the broader world then. The response to the perceived problem of dependency on imported oil was a fairly concerted program of energy efficiency overall, a development plan of alternatives including the Synfuels Corporation (more or less defunct), and CAFE standards (still kind of with us, though under attack). Have you noticed how much people take fuel consumption into account in their daily lives today? Not very much. Despite the gas-guzzler taxes and the CAFE requirements and everything else, the trend has reversed.
Why?
Because the whole scheme was supposed to "not hurt the poor" by keeping fuel cheap, and that removed any real incentive for people to save it. The result is that we are feeding a number of monsters, from Islamoterrorists to dictatorship in Venezuela and Nigeria to global warming. People are pretty reliably going to vote with their wallets for the cheapest source of a given commodity, and if you demand that something remain cheap as a matter of public policy it will be over-used. (I once read a story about cattle farmers in the former Soviet Union buying bread to feed their cows, because consumer subsidies made it cheaper than raw grain.)
The moral of the story is that well-meaning measures can create perverse incentives, and sooner or later people will act on them. The only solution is not to create them in the first place. If you are trying to get people to save fuel you have to make it more painful to burn it. Trying to give certain groups special favors or subsidies creates more perverse incentives (e.g. Texas state universities react to the elimination of racial preferences by admitting the top 10% of all HS graduating classes, which leads the less-successful white students to spend their senior years at inferior high schools where they are guaranteed to graduate in the top 10%).
Getting out of this mess requires reversing course from the way we got into it. Sorry about this long ramble, but it's late and I'm tired.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
The best is how insurance works. I've driven over 100,000 miles (mostly for work) in the last three years (since I got my license). Never had a SINGLE accident that was my doing, though twice I had asshole tailgaiters smash my rear-end. I've never had a ticket for anything other than parking. My insurance is over $170/month in an old Ford Escort (compact car, for you non-us folk). I know several women who got their license the same time I did and they're working on their third cars (because they drunkenly totaled the others), and I pay MORE than them!
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
I got a 2000-model Honda Insight in May of 2001. It was on sale, so I got it, along with a very-extended warranty, an air conditioner, and that early AIWA MP3-capable CD player, for a total of about $19k - $20k after the financing dust settled.
Do I really get 70mpg? Not in general.
I really do get >50. Consistently.
I've driven something like 24,000 miles in this car. I live in Minnesota, which has awful weather; I run the AC all the time in the summer, and our winters are famous. The car's "auto-stop" feature doesn't work below about 40 degrees F, so the car just idles at stop lights in winter.
Would I get another? Hell yeah.
I went from Saint Paul to Seattle and back, and commuted while I was there, for a week. The entire trip used about 55 gallons of gas; that's just over five tanks. So, we filled up five times, and got home with a half-tank.
Performance: Performance is just fine. Everyone bashes the Insight's punch, because they're driving it like any other car. Doesn't quite work. Second gear in the Insight can be used from about 5mph up through about 60. If you really want to accelerate, stay in a low gear; the gear ratios are incredibly broad. 5th gear works from about 23 to about 113. The pick-up is right there when you really need it - getting out of snow drifts, for instance, or peeling out on a left turn when traffic is bad. Once you're at freeway speeds, it's a little sluggish, but it's still a fine car.
I cannot possibly communicate how wonderful this car is to drive and to park. I regularly get parking spaces in winter because Minnesotan parking lots tend to have half-spaces which are full of snow. The Insight fits; nothing else does. You can parallel-park this car between people while they're kissing, and only nudge them in the shins a little.
It's a nice, maneuverable, little car, and it gets great milage. I have put in about a tank of gas a *month* since I got it.
Yes, I'd get another. And this is the 2000 model; I'm sure the 2004's are nicer.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
I've observed a similar principle involving large loud computer cases. Somehow a full tower ALWAYS beats anything designed for micro-atx. The only exception is if the smaller case is BLACK, because that doubles the speed of the PC.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
I'm a happy-as-can-be Honda Insight owner for 2 1/2 years. I'm averaging 57.4 mpg in ALL city driving. No problems at all whatsoever and my extended warranty is good till the end of 2006.
Driving habits
I'm currently experimenting with varying driving habits to see which way gets the best gas mileage. I first tried maximizing mileage at expense of speed, so I tried to running all on electric up to 34-36 MPH, then slowly accelerating to the speed limit, but never more than 60 MPH (we have 65 in places). The best I could do was average 54.5 MPG. I then tried rapid, aggressive acceleration to the desired speed, then kicking in the cruise control. This netted me approximately 47 MPG. Note that the first method appears (judging by the "you're number one" signs I got from other drivers) to be more courteous, as folks tend to get testy when they can't accelerate for 50' to the next red light--even when you stay in the right lane. As for power, when I'm in the pole position, I usually leave all the other gaspigs in the dust. Despite their eight or ten cylinders, they have a lot of mass to move.
Average speed
The fewer stops and accelerations you have, the better your gas mileage. The first 5-10 minutes of any trip nets you crappy MPG, as everything needs to heat up before it starts working efficiently. The electric motor doesn't seem to like the cold, so it lets the gas engine do most/all the work. That would be fine, except the gas engine also doesn't like the cold. This brings us to...
Temperature
When the Prius is cold, it is not happy and gets poor(er) gas mileage. Presumably driving the Prius during the Winter months in an area with a propensity to snow would cause poor(er) gas mileage.
Traffic
The heavier the traffic, the slower you go and the more you rely on the battery. At some point, there will not be enough charge in the battery to run the electric motor, so when you take your foot off the brake the gas engine will start. When you come to a dead stop, the gas engine will cut off (this technique also saves gas when one is waiting at a light, railroad crossing, or the takeout line at White Castle (slammers, baby!). The Prius likes relatively unclogged highway best, optimally between 55 and 60 MPH. Much faster than 63 MPH and the average MPG starts dropping.
Yeah, right.
You say that this is your first vehicle. Does it mean you don't have a lot of driving experience? If you do have a few thousand miles under your belt, ignore this message. Otherwise...
A simple fact of life is that younger/less experienced drivers are pretty likely to get into accidents, whether by their own fault or by not being experienced enough to spot someone else's error and compensate for it. Either way, as a rule of thumb, you should expect to wreck your first car. I happened to not ever wreck mine, but I think most people I know have.
With that, I would recomend that you do not get a new car, especially not a hybrid. You will be paying a lot to buy it, a lot in insurance (you'll want full coverage on that shiny new baby), etc. Also, you'll feel sad every time someone dings or scratches you parking. Not to mention if, as mentioned above, you wreck it.
I would advise getting an older (and maybe scratched) compact. I had great experience with Corollas which were 10+ years old. If you get something like that, you will pay less to start, less insurance (you can probably get away with liability) and you'll have a car that can be cheaply repaired by anyone. Also, after driving this car for a few years, you'll have some better point of view from which to chose your next vehicle. The state of the art of hybrids will advance also, and you'll be ahead w. some money and experience. You'll still have a chance of getting something like 30+ mpg, w. decent power and speed.
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
And don't forget those biodiesel vehicles. How many miles to the next fast-food place with a deep frier?
Driving in the Yukon this summer in a 92 Suzuki Sidekick. I did 600K on a tank of gas (10 imp. gallon tank.) I put a bit campstove fuel in at the end to make it another 20K to a gas station. Gas is $1/L way up north, the gas stations are few and far (really far) between and sometimes not open on Sunday. (Go get dude, yeah, dude has the key to the pump, oh no dude's gone fishing, oh forget it.)
I was wondering why the mpg in some of the posts seemed low, but that's per US gallon. Much better.<rant> i remember your duelly elected president George w Bush (who I nhumbly support in his war for, I mean against, no wait you are either for or against, wait, no, we are against terrorism and for the war which somehow equates to peace, something like that, I'll have to switch on those informative us tv news channels to get it straight again with those live action hero figures and cards and such, ooh and oh so cool techy-military stuff) announced that the big 3 car companies would have the fuel efficiency technology available in about 4 years. Translation: we won't be havin us any US-made fuel efficient cars while Bush is president.
God bless him for killing all those terrorists (and breaking a few eggs) so we can have cheap gas for our gas guzzling SUVs. </rant> Blame Canada
Where do you think the energy comes from that lets you use hydrogen for fuel cells?
Oh wait, that's right, COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS.
You are like the Dave Attel of Canada except you stay in one city.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Except in the city.
Three out of five motorcycle-driving acquaintances have been hit by cars or light trucks who "just didn't see them." For each accident, there have been dozens of near misses, avoided only by the skill of the motorcycle driver.
Unfortunately, in a big city it's just an odds game.
The same is true in automobiles and light trucks, it's just that the odds are better, and the odds of avoiding serious injury or death are better in an enclosing vehicle. I personally have been hit on both a bicycle and a gasoline-powered scooter, and consider myself lucky to be alive.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
www.fogbound.net
lol hehe :)
Dictators on CNN and FOX?
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
I had an instructor in a "Power Tech" course in school who spent a lot of time doing research on such things as differences in gasoline quality from different manufacturers, and quality of motor oil. He insisted that the "3,000 mile oil change" was still a very good idea.
It wasn't so much the fact that the oil itself would stop lubricating the parts after that length of time in the engine, but more a concern over the additives. Apparently, there are a number of additives in the motor oil that help prevent corrosion which start to break down from the heating/cooling cycles - and become less effective after 3,000 miles or so of use.
We once got back to our car from a day-long hiking trip and found that some unknown person had artfully placed a bouquet of Lupin on the center of the windshield of our Prius. None of the other cars of our companions had been so honored.
Our slightly-old-technology Skoda Octavia does over 60mpg (OK, that's a UK gallon so knock off a bit) at a steady 70mph! Lifetime mileage so far is about 55mpg.
Wonder why no-one seems to make a hybrid diesel?
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
My website has graphs from dynomometers that measure rear-wheel horsepower. Unfortunately the one I have on there now is out of date and from my older setup but it shows 730hp at the rear wheels. If you figure the drivetrain loss being some 15%, you are left with around 850horsepower from the motor. I am currently making aroud 850 horsepower at the wheels (which I also have graphs for, but that haven't been uploaded yet. 850rwhp equates to about 1000hp at the crankshaft.
To answer your other questions and comments: I do not use nitrous, and the car is perfectly streetable. It does run on 110 octane fuel (which is optional, but it will not make the same power with 93 octane) and while it doesn't drive like an S500 I have no problems driving it around. It has power steering, air conditioning, radio, etc. All the creature comforts.
In response to your last comment, yes it has taken a lot of time and yes it was definitely not cheap. It also is not something any Joe Schmoe can do either.
-m
"I do not have as much of a fear of dying as I do of not having lived."
Did I ever make that horsepower?
Yes, many times, and have many ways of proving it.
Could it be driven for more than a few minutes?
I can drive it all day long...
Could you even handle driving it on the road?
Yes... it can be quite an experience, but I've learned to handle it fairly well. It isn't for the faint of heart.
It is not as much of a race car as you may think. It has a full interior. Carpet, radio and stereo, 2 seats, a/c, power steering, full dash, no roll cage, etc. It's not a daily commuter car to go through traffic, that's for sure - but I have gotten caught in traffic with it on a couple of occasions and it's really not a problem to drive it through traffic... the clutch is pretty stiff to handle the torque and power of the motor, but it's livable.
The bottom end, transmission, and rear end are all stock and have withstood these power levels for 3 years without a single incident.
I do use top of the line technology. Cutting edge turbocharger, state of the art engine management, great tuning, help from the best in the industry, a lot of time, money, and effort, as well as an ever vigilant driver who always does things the proper way and knows how to maintain a 1000hp vehicle.
Finally, I'd like to also state once again, my car does not use Nitrous.
-m
"I do not have as much of a fear of dying as I do of not having lived."
I drive a 1988 BMW M5, which was the worlds fastest 4 door car when it was new.
:)
I get roughly 11mpg in typical driving, out of a fuel injected 3.5L 24v 6-throttle slant-six.
This car is lots and lots of fun to drive. It holds 4 people comfortably, 5 if you need to. There still aren't many sedans that get to 60 in the ~6 second range, and this car only comes in black with black trim.
You may think it's impractical. It is. I got my car because I love driving, not to make an environmental or political statement. When I am not in the mood to _drive_, or when my only one-of-2100-total-units BMW needs some parts, i take the bus. If all you want to do is get from point A to point B in a boring appliance vehicle that is cost sensitive and environmentally responsible, take a bus.
If you actually want to buy a car, buy a miata. It's the best car you can buy to actually learn how to drive. I'm not referring to learning how to drive in order to get a license. I'm talking about really learning how to drive - controlling oversteer, knowing when the car will understeer, basic drifting, threshhold braking, double-clutching, etc. THe miata is great for all of these, the prius/insight are terrible at all of them
A miata is also cheap to operate.
Finally, you'd be making an informed decision instead of a soft-facts based one.
(i promise a miata will in all ways outperform any of the current hybrid vehicles)
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
We've been looking at purchasing a new vehicle for my wife since around xmas. (She lost her job soon after in Ohio's state budget cuts, so the idea has been shelved).
We were very seriously considering the Civic Hybrid. We even took it on a test drive for an hour or two. It was a nice vehicle. Very quiet... almost too quiet w/ the engine shutting off like that.
The only problems that we had with it:
1. Battery cost. Dealer said est'd range for replacement was $2k-$5k, and unknown how long they'd last.
2. Car purchase price
Compared to the regular civic's price, the overhead for purchasing the hybrid, given the normal civic's good performance numbers, even w/ the tax credit, wasn't justifyable w/ the battery concerns.
Now, if were doing OK and we had all her student loans paid off and the kids were out of the house, at this point I'd consider eating the few thousand dollars just to drive a car that's so environment/emmissions friendly.
But at this point in time, we can't do that.
Now that she's finally finding a job we're looking at purchasing a Hyndai Elantra (or Ford Focus) as soon as she starts (we're going test-driving this afternoon).
We sold her vehicle a few months ago for the cash, so now she'll need something to commute with.
tf23
(btw, thank you George Bush for screwing the economy so people here are losing their jobs but we're still sending billions, daily, to Iraq).
sorry, couldn't resist....
http://slashdot.org/~tf23/journal
D'Oh!
Just think about it, shouldn't you think about gas milage per passenger, instead of per car? For example, you can get a 12 passenger van, and get like 10mpg (I think they are about that good with the less powerful v10s). Multiply that out, and even with just 8 passengers you have 80mpg. Also, shouldn't we be thinking about less vehicles on the roads, and not necessarily more smaller cars? I just kind of think that a tax break for "green" cars might be a little off the point.
Consider a few local churches, they have vans that sit around all the time, and then they go on a trip with 10-15 people. This means they have an average cumilitive mpg of like 100mpg. That sounds a bit better than most of the posters with honda insights.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
More fundamentally, we have artificially low (!) gas prices in the US, as we do not bear the true burden of the costs SUVs and other vehicles put on the environment, on the roads, and on the economy. As a result, we spread out cities and towns out into the green spaces, and then we complain about commutes and price increases. Foolish!
Rather, we should consider the hidden costs of items. While we don't factor in the price of clean air, we should consider the price of your health costs with dirty air. I for one make my decisions not just by the dollar but by my principles, ones that tell me to take as little as I can from the world so that my daughter can have something. That's far more important than just the variance in price between hybrids and standard vehicles.
Lastly, I think it's a fair trade: I care about the world in which I live, and I will pay more for it. Sadly, with the choices out there, the burden is on me, as you seem to be unwilling to take it. As such, I accept the burden, on behalf of both of us.
...tizzyd
I only have 3000 miles on my new Civic hybrid, but it looks like 42mpg w air conditioning on full blast, 45 with no AC. It is interesting that city and highway mileage has been almost the same for me.
I could probably get the same mileage, though, by just using an underpowered civic and driving at ridiculously slow acceleration, and turning off my engine at lights.
It's a wonderful toy, but maybe not practical if money is your only concern.
My friend drives a used Mercedes, I think 300, turbo diesel from ... maybe 1988? This is a big HEAVY car. (Diesels are heavier than gas engines.) He gets better than 25mpg and this car is NO slouch on the highway. He buys diesel for as low as $1.39/gallon.
Questions:
VW makes the Golf and Jetta with a turbo diesel that is said to be very good. What kind of performance are those owners seeing, both in mpg and in overall get up and go of the vehicle? (I hate having to put my foot out and push to get to a decent merging speed.)
Mercedes brings the big vehicles into the US offering a diesel, but not the smaller ones. According to my friend, they even have a turbo diesel of the their "low-end" (about $5k or more than I paid for my BMW) hatchback available in europe, why not the US as well? I would be VERY interested in such a car. I like a smaller car and great mileage, but I HATE the cheap tin can feel of most of the econo cars. I don't need a BIG sedan, but I do want a solid construction and feel to my car.
Since there are those folks reading this from in europe that might have that Mercedes hatchback, what sort of mileage are you seeing (realizing I'll probably need some kilometer to mileage conversion)? I'm guessing the ride, feel and acceleration are acceptable.
Finally, why aren't there any diesel/electric hybrids? Seems like the best of both worlds, although there may be technical issues I am unaware of such as the additional diesel weight that make it impractical.
Thanks, I'm looking forward to hearing the responses.
I, for one, welcome our new pet peeve overlords
If you live in an urban area, your best bet might be to look into purchasing a diesel and running it on biodiesel fuel. No conversion of the engine is needed and you never have to worry about depleting fossil fuels again. If you want to be creative, check out the Greasel.com website, where they tell you how to convert a diesel engine to run on used vegetable oil. Good luck.
OK, you probably don't want to blow $100Gs on your first car, but hopefully the performance of this thing gives us something to look forward to.
Check it out. The 2004 Prius comes with Bluetooth to connect to mobile phones with Bluetooth. This will come in very handy with my Sony Ericsson T68i. I currently use a Jabra BT200 wireless headset while driving, but BT built into a car sounds way cooler.
I already have a regular car (a minivan that gets 20-25 MPG) and I was thinking of getting a second car - a Hybrid - for trips when I don't need so much space, just around the city, etc. I guess I would get twice the gas mileage, but to build the car in the first place, some energy has to get invested.
....
I am wondering if anybody has an idea how much this is in terms of gallons of gas. E.g. the equivalent energy to make a new hybrid car might be 1000 gallons of gas, and if I drive 12000 miles per year, I would be using 480 gallons less of gas than if I used my other car, so in ~2 years I would be ahead resource-wise. But if it takes the equivalent of 10,000 gallons of gas I would never break even.
I don't know how one would measure this - you'd have to consider the power used by the auto assembly plant, the power needed to mine and refine the raw materials, etc. But I bet somebody has made some reasonable back-of-the-envelope calculations
No my mom was not "connected." It was after years of downsized cars, trunks got to be so small that a person got to wonder how a Mafia hitman got to do what Mafia guys were known to do. She figures that if you were a Mafia guy, you definitely wanted to get a Grand Marquis.
Oh, and the comment about the bodies of murdered prostitutes is sexist and sick. The socially proper way to describe the Crown Vic trunk is that you could get two dead Mafia guys in there with no problem.
If you really don't have a better use for that income, why not buy a fuel efficient car and save the rest. With the economy the way it is right now you are fortunate to have that kind of money. Don't do something foolish, save it!!
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
Consumer Reports ran some oil in NYC taxi cabs (considered hard duty -- lots of idling, stop and go) and figured you could go 6000 miles -- below 6000 miles there was no significant improvement to engine wear while if you pushed it past 6000, they started to see wear on camshafts and valve lifters and such.
You are confusing natural gas with propane. Natural Gas is just scrubbed methane. Methane is produced from innumerable sources, and is absolutely renewable; while it is often found in the same pockets as oil reserves, there is no reason at all that natural gas has to be obtained by mining; any decaying plant or animal waste will produce ample quantities of methane.
LOL! Now that is the best troll that I have seen in quite some time! I usually do not respond to them, but some people migh fall for the parent comment.
Propane is certainly not a gas that came straight from the ground. It requires more processing than gasoline. It is no more renewable than it's parent source and was created by a fellow who thought gasoline companies were ripping everybody off.
Natural Gas is the stuff that comes from the ground and is non-renewable.
Methane is "renewable" and the EPA also identifies it as a "greenhouse gas" (for those of you who believe in that greenhouse nonsense).
Now, if you have the instructions to a gas grill, see what those instructions have to say about propane, methane and naturel gas. They usually say the three are not interchangable or that modifications must be performed before switching.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Hey, I live in Canada. We have ~65% taxes here, if you add up all the federal, provincial and other stuff. We have all that free healthcare stuff. It means you get to stand in line, when you're sick.
A DD018-60D5-4705-B8F1-9C18ED072D19
As it happens, I work for $13.50 an hour. See if you can imagine what my take home looks like. Up here, "normal" people drive the shit only illegal immigrants drive in the USA. Taxes, y'know.
I made all the dough to buy that truck in the STATES! First house I ever owned was in the USA, and I could afford it because of low interest and LOW TAXES. The house I live in now was bought with profit from the one in the USA, otherwise I'd be renting some cheesy apartment. Guys who work in construction do not own houses or nice trucks here. In the USA, they do.
It all boils down to who you want looking after your interests. You want Big Brother to do it, or you want to do it yourself? I choose the latter, because it works better. I never had a bean to my name in Canada, went to the Eeeevile Capitalist USA and made a shitload of money, now I'm back here in the land of the $0.65 cent dollar and I don't have a bean again except what I saved up.
Difference between the two countries is OPPORTUNITY. In the USA there is the opportunity to have an SUV and something nice to tow behind it parked in front of your house that you own outright. Here in Canada you have to know somebody in the Big Brother office and take table scraps. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but only a slight one.
Put it this way. In Phoenix Arizona there are many companies that make all manner of race cars, dune buggies, jeeps, play stuff. Like more than 30 who build whole cars. Here in Toronto, the biggest, richest city in Canada, there are maybe three. In Phoenix everybody has some kind of customization on their new to two year old car, even if its only alloy wheels or pinstripes. Here, bone stock and five to eight years old is the rule. Imagine that rule applied to all private enterprise and you have Canada. Now go find a job.
Here's a beauty article that explains the concept even better: http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=A8
Socialism sucks.
Battery replacement costs will likely come down significantly in 10 years.
That Toyota is appearantly about to proliferate hybrid drive across their model line, and planning on shipping many more hybrids in the next few years than they have so far seems to suggest that the economics are already changing dramatically.
Oh, Coward...
Regarding your comment about where electricity comes from...You don't need *that* kind of electricity in a hybrid-electric vehicle! All of the electricity in the car comes from regenerative braking (during which energy is stored in the battery) or from replenishment by the gasoline engine. No plugs, none at all, on hybrid-electic vehicles currently available in the U.S.
As for your comment on Performance, hybrid electric vehicles can pick 'em up and put 'em down. The electric torque at low speeds greatly increases the available hp under acceleration, and the CVT has none of those annoying "hitches" when it shifts -- it's smooth, and if you've ever dragged someone, you know what a time-waster the "lurch" is when you have to shift (or when your engine shifts).
As for hydrogen fuel cell cars... WHERE do you think the energy to refine the hydrogen is going to come from? That's right: Fossil Fuels. Fuel cells aren't the perfect solution!
Oh, Boring...
:-)
In a Toyota Prius you most certainly *will* be the first person out of the stop light. You may not stay at the head of the pack, but you *will* leave the light at the head of the class. Trust me.
If you'd ever test driven one (and floored the pedal) you would know this!
Kids, DO try this at home. By hitting the go pedal hard, you're asking the car to use the electric motors for propulsion -- exactly what the car is designed to do!
The EPA for city on the Civic Hybrid CVT is 48. The EPA for city on the Civic EX is 34ish (or lower). That's at least *14* mpg, not 4 mpg. The highway EPA MPG for Civic Hybrid CVT is 47 (51 in the 5-speed). Highway EPA for Civic EX is 38. That's either 9 or 13 mpg, depending on which car you're comparing. Still better than 4 mpg.
The hybrids are not death traps. The problem is the propensity of Americans to drive SUVs that they don't need to be driving. A Civic Hybrid against another car of it's own size class will do really well and you won't end up dead in it. The problem is that selfish SUV owners who never take the car off-road and never carry more than two people unfairly change the odds for those of us who want to be conscious of our fossil fuel use -- whether we're in Hybrids or Civics or Corollas or Escorts or whatever. If you've never driven your SUV on a gravel road, then you're selfish and you could do what you need to do with a smaller vehicle than the SUV you're driving.
$665.95 -- retail price of the beast
omg, that's fuckin funny
"Come on, let's go drink till we can't feel feelings anymore."
Yeah, yeah, let me know when a European country has actually implemented the things in the Kyoto Accord and then we can talk.
Doesn't happen to me that often. Of course, I live in Alabama, so if it isn't a truck with a lift kit so high you can walk under it there isn't much interest from anybody ;-)
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
My grandpa drove a mid-size sedan when he was raising his 6 kids, so you can't use the "I need it to ferry around my kids" excuse.
You clearly don't have children. I hate SUV's but I can't let this sort of idiocy pass.
In your grandpa's day, seat belts were an oddity, and car seats probably didn't even exist. It was just fine to leave your kids in the house alone. And when it was time to go on a family trip, your grandpa whistled everybody into the car and they took off.
These days, if you drive with improperly restrained children you can (depending on the state) go to jail. And that's a good thing.
I defy you to show me a mid-size sedan with seven legal seats. Wagons and minivans, sure. But you probably have to go full-size just to get six!
The problem is the propensity of Americans to drive SUVs that they don't need to be driving. A Civic Hybrid against another car of it's own size class will do really well and you won't end up dead in it.
Trucks. Semis. Large cars.
Against all of those things, small fuel-efficient cars are deathtraps. SUVs are safer.
I just saw the aftermath of an SUV driving out onto I-4 at a 90-degree angle in front of a car-carrier semi; it was an attempted murder-suicide. The kids lived. If it had been a Prius, their father would have managed to kill 3 of 4 kids this morning, instead of only 1 of 4.
(He attempted to drown the other two near my office. One lived.)
My previous van was a 1971 Chevy Van which I bought in about 1983, with the classic V8 engine. In the summer it would get 12 mpg, and in the winter it would get 8mpg if all 8 cylinders were working, 7mpg with 7 cylinders, 6mpg with 6 cylinders, and would just barely move when only 5 cylinders were working. So 16mpg all year is a big improvement :-)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
A friend bought his wife a Prius a couple years ago. Figure in the battery replacement costs, extra up-front cost, etc. and he determined it would take 500,000 miles to break even vs. buying a conventional car of the comparable size & capacity (at a given, constant gas price).