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Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy?
nissin writes "I'm ready to buy my first vehicle, and would like to hear your experiences with either hybrid or electric vehicles. Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? Do they perform well in the city? How about on long road trips? I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."
we do not buy ecological vehicles!
A friend in another city has a hybrid. According to him the pickup is slow but the fuel economy is great. Pure electric would be super if you didn't have to make long trips and always had an electrical outlet to charge when parked.
Pet Peeve #843287: SUV drivers that whine about the price of gas. You bought that overpriced penis extension, learn to live with the consequences.
Trolling is a art,
Personally, I am going to give the technology a few years to mature. I remember reading recently about GM dropping a line of Hybrid cars because the EPA in California banned a particular type of appliance required for re-charging the vehicle. I think it will soon take hold, but I am giving it a bit of time for many of these details to be sorted out.
Wait a few more years, you will be grateful. The advantages of having new technology early are many, but so are the drawbacks. I understand that this is not a "new" technology in the strictest sense, but it is not a mature one. I am waiting, and I would advise you to do so also.
Considering a hybrid is something like $40,000 canadian, and I just bought a 1987 Honda Civic for $900 that gets 40+mpg and runs perfect, I would spend my money elsewhere. But I'm cheap.
As the proud owner of a Toyota Prius, I can definitely recommend one. I'm not too hot on the looks, but the mileage rocks, and it's been very reliable so far. And it isn't as pokey as you may expect a hybrid to be. You may also want to look at the Honda Insight (If it is still being made).
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
2 of my friends have hybrids (one the Insight and the other the Prius), and they both like them. They are great on the city streets, very quiet and lots of pickup from a standing start thanks to the electric motors. For longer trips, you'll love the quiet, the fuel economy, and the insane distances you can go without needing to fill up your tank. The downside tends to be that they have poor pickup at freeway speeds.
The other big issue is the feel of the ride. Some people love it, others don't. They have low-friction tires and stiff suspensions (to minimize the amount of energy loss). This tends to make the car ride more like a sporty car (you feel every bump) than a luxury car (soft suspension smooths out the bumps). Some people love that, others hate it.
Overall, I'd suggest taking it out for a spin, and see whether you like it. They are practical cars though.
sigs are a waste of space
Electric vehicles can't go very far or very fast, and when you drive one people will think you're gay.(*)
(*)Sponsored by the gasoline industry of America.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Hybrids get great mileage, and they work. What's not to like? Buy a Prius, or a hybrid Civic. Or, wait a couple years, because Toyota is supposedly going to sell everything in a hybrid model by 2005.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Electrics or hybrids are nice...but just wreck one...or have one break for that matter. Nobody but the dealer will touch them because nobody but the dealer has the training and equipment to do it. Insurance companies are extremely wary of them too...I toured an insurance company and they were busy smashing them into things and seeing the effects if the batteries got shorted or spewed acid all over everyone...certainly not worse than having flaming gasoline sprayed on you, but there was a real danger of electrocution.
and what good would that do in this era? Have you noticed the cost of natural gas lately? Did you know that it is going WAY up?
.02
Buy a smaller car that gets great gas mileage (ie Saturns are a good example) that doesn't cost much money (Saturn SL-series cars (before the ugly Ion's) were under 12k).
That's my worthless
I have a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and I love it. Average about 45 mpg. Use it to commute on the DC beltway - plenty of pickup for merging and passing. Have taken 2 4-6 hour trips with the car, and it's just fine - like driving a regular Civic. Really, the only noticeable difference between the Hybrid an the regular Civic is that you can feel the car nose forward just a bit as you press down on the brake pedal and the generator that is driven by the brakes kicks in. You should also note that you can take $2000 off your adjusted gross income on your 2003 taxes, and many states provide addtional incentives. Excise tax was waved in Maryland ($2000), and you can drive in the HOV lanes in Virginia without a second passenger. Bottom line - it's a great car, and a good deal to boot.
If you look at the fuel efficiency info on the EPA site, you'll notice that the TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection) Volkswagons can get around 50MPG. They start easy in the winter, unlike the older diesels. Check out www.tdiclub.com. I just got a 2000 TDI Beetle and it's awesome. Also, there are a few modifications that give you loads of extra power from the engine. Some will even increase efficiency and give you more power. These are great cars, go check em out.
If you like getting 55 MPG, that is. :)
Alternative fuels are necessary for national security, in my opinion.
1) The US defeated Japan and Germany chiefly by starving them of oil. The Japanese and Germans had jet fighter planes sitting on the tarmac, ready to pulverize the best we had in the air, but they had no oil to fly them. One day the same thing could happen to America.
2) The environmental impact of fossil fuels, of course, is horrible.
3) With alternative fuels, we wouldn't need to be in the Middle East at all.
Alternative, renewable fuel resources will take us a long way towards national and personal independence.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Camel
Nuff said.
(Note: Don't go dromedary. Lazy as can be. Uncomfortable. Spend a little extra for the second hump. It's worth it.)
Hybrid vehicles are great, but a more easily adoptable alternative is E85 cars. These run on 85% ethanol, and I am sure you guys all know the benefits of ethanol. The infrastucture for distribution already exists everywhere, and it would take almost no modification of current manufacturing techniques to produce E85 compatible cars. they already exist, but are not common. Yet.
What if you made a full internal combustion car with a lightweight aluminum chasis, a variable speed transmission, low resistance tires and sleek aerodynamics?
The hybrids are pretty much the same except they suffer heavy batteries, gain regenerative braking and have smaller lighter IC engines.
I own a 2002 Prius, and have pre-ordered a 2004 (new and improved). In short, I love my car. It's got plenty of power for your daily commute, and with my 20-25 miles per day driving, I can easily go two weeks or more between fillups. I've also made the trip from Southern California to Phoenix AZ on 6-7 gallons. It's also beneficial to know that I'm not polluting nearly as much as the big SUV's I share the road with, since the current model is SULEV rated, and the new one also carries the AT-PZEV rating for partial zero emissions.
/
The current model doesn't carry a whole lot, and you can't tow with either generation, but for most of us, that's not a regular issue. The new version is a hatchback with fold-downs eats, so it solves the "carrying stuff" issue.
There's plenty of Yahoo! Groups and other forums on electric or hybrid cars. A couple I personally hang out on and post alot of good geek info:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
See you there!
$ man woman *
-bash:
Buy a motorcycle. Excellent on gas, better than 90% of cars out there. You get to experience the road in a way cars cannot show you. You're not trapped in a box, observing the world through glass. On a bike, you're part of the road, the scenery, nature.
If you buy a jap cruiser, you can spend as little as $5,000, up to $30,000+ for high-end bikes or Harleys. I own and highly recommend the Suzuki VL800 Volusia. A phat 800cc cruiser for around $6500.
I fill my tank for $7 (~3.8 gallons) and go 175 miles.
# Erik
You could just get a motorcycle or a scooter. Easier to park, decent fuel economy, cheaper than a car.
I'd personally take my bike over any scooter, but scooters have more storage capacity in a smaller package (I've heard good things about the new Suzuki burgman 650 - good power and lots of storage space).
My concern is with the batteries. I think they give 8 years guarantee but if I have to spend 10000 dollars on a new battery, I'm not happy. Yes, you could argue that you won't keep that car for that long but the same concern can decrease the resale value.
Being more maneuverable and closer to the ground, compact cars are generally safer for people inside _and_ outside the car.
People who believe that SPUTES are safer really need to get a grip on reality.
Forget diamonds, copyright is forever.
I test drove a Prius during their first year and I didn't like one thing: the brakes try and capture that extra kinetic energy, but the result was very jumpy breaking.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
I considered hybrid back in the summer of 2002. I went shopping for a Honda Civic. For $5,000 more I could have gotten the hybrid version. I did a math projection for 5 years, and I simply did not save $5,000 in gas. (It's worth noting that I only drive 10 miles a day.) My memory's fuzzy on the details of my math, but I remember thinking gas prices would have to at least double in order to break even. There are probably other ways to justify that cost, but that's what stood out for me and why I didn't go hybrid.
Also, here in Oregon, there were complaints that with higher fuel efficiency, there is fewer tax dollars coming from gas to repair roads with. So they cranked up the registration fees of hybrids. That's another cost I would have to have endured.
You should take some time to do some math. How much does gas cost now? How much is it likely to go up for the period you plan on having your car?What's the cost difference in buying it today? Is there any real benefit?
Short of some disaster that destroys or cuts off our oil supply, I can't think of a reason not to go with a traditional gas guzzler.
"Derp de derp."
Ars Technica did a really good review of the Honda Insight. You might find it informative.
I've heard that starting with next year's models, a lot of manufacturers are going to offer both Hybrid fuel system cars, but also in "traditional" body styles. Of course this is a rumor so... YMMV (pun intended). ;)
;)
I have a bud who owns one and loves it (the Toyota hybrid). While the mileage isn't as good as they advertise it to be, it certainly is up there... almost as good as the old Geo Metro 3-cylinder car.
And you can't beat how cool it is when you're sitting at a stop light and the car is absolutely silent. 8)
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
I've had a Civic Hybrid for about 18 months now and it's been a great little car. I've put about 33,000 miles on it driving from Portland, OR to Helena, MT and back and also from Portland, OR to San Diego, CA several times. It's great to go about 450 miles - sometimes more - on a single tank of gas that costs about $22. It has no problems going over mountain passes and has plenty of power - unless your into racing or something. I get more mpg in the city then on the highway, but even in the worst case situations I've still gotten better then 41 or 42mpg. Usually getting around 45 to 47mpg.
I take it that you've ignored the reports on the rollover problems that plague SUVs.
Also, people seem to have forgotten basic physics, i.e. F=ma. So if more people bought smaller, lighter vehicles, they would less dangerous because there would be less chance of a weight difference between two colliding vehicles.
Of course, the best option is just not to drive and take transit, bike or walk instead.
I have driven the Toyota Prius, and I like it. I plan to eventually pick up a used one in a few years as there is no way I plan to pay full sticker price for one.
One neat feature the Prius has is a "B" setting on its automatic transmission. This is like regular drive, except it is used for long downhill stretches where breaking is needed, the "B" setting forces constant regenerative braking so you store much of that descent energy.
As I understand it, Toyota plans on putting the dual in all their new vehicles after a certain point. I would certanly like on in my 1989 4Runner as the gas milage on that thing is awful.*
* FYI I am probably one of the few people you see on the road who can acutally justify owning a SUV as I need it for teaching Whitewater kayaking and Mountaneering.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
In regard to mileage, the CVT (continuous variable transmission, which basically makes your car into a non-shifting gocart-type vehicle) apparently gets better mileage in the city. So, if you spend a lot of time in stop-and-go traffic like many Americans, you may want to consider this somewhat spendy upgrade on your Civic or Insight (around 2K I think, definitely check that figure). Not sure if the Prius comes with that option or not. I know that a Saturn does, but I don't think it's a hybrid Saturn.
Of course, as mentioned above, it will probably be difficult to find somebody to work on that transmission, so you may wonder to consider trying to determine of this technology is just a temporary novelty, or here to stay.
OK - Listen to this - Ford Escape Hybrid. Summer 2004, though.
I've been driving a 2003 Toyota Prius since April. I'm very happy with it.
It has decent acceleration, about the same as other cars I've driven. It's comfortable, quite roomy for a small car, the back seat has decent leg room. I get 45-48 miles per gallon, closer to 45 during hot periods when I use the A/C a lot. I paid about $21K, including options (I didn't get the GPS system). There's also a tax credit for hybrid vehicles that you should look into.
The acceleration from a standing start is quite good because both engines (electric and gasoline) pull. The gasoline engine cuts off at stops, and in slow stop-and-go traffic only the electric motor runs, which is why the Prius gets better fuel efficiency in city driving than on the highway (the EPA rating is 52 city, 47 highway).
The 2004 Prius appears to be a substantial improvement: it's larger, but gets even better fuel efficiency.
I'm planning on purchasing a 2004 Toyota Prius this fall, when I move to California. The 2004 series has an AT-PZEV (advanced technology partial zero emissions vehicle) rating in California, and also qualifies me to park at meters for free and use the carpool lane with only me in it.
The 2004 model is very different from the 2003 model, and I would not have purchased the 2003 model (instead opting for a Honda Insight or Honda Civic GX). But the 2004 model has that much lower emissions rating and gets around 55mpg average, which is on par with the Honda Insight. The old Prius averaged 46mph according to EV World. It also has a larger size, moving it out of the compact and into the mid-size category. It also performs as well as a non-hybrid/electric car, according to people who have test drove it. It has a range of ~550 miles on a full tank.
The feature set is also very impressive--much better than that of the Insight or Civic GX, for the same $20k price range. I plan on getting bluetooth and the JBL six-speaker setup, at least. There's also the automatic parking feature, although I'm not sure if that will be available in the U.S.
The nice thing about the Civic GX is that it runs on natural gas. If you buy the Phill, partly financed by Honda, you can refuel in your own garage. But you don't have as much range as a Civic Hybrid. The Civic GX is also AT-PZEV, along with the Civic Hybrid. Unfortunately the automatic Insight is only SULEV, and the manual Insight, which gets better mileage, is only ULEV.
If you're only going to commute, then I might suggest the Twike. You'll have to custom order it, but if I only needed to commute then that's what I'd get. Unfortunately it is also $20k. The Tango is not yet available.
Even with tax credits, the crossover point for purchasing a hybrid electric car is years in the future. You can't really make an economic argument for buying one in the short term. If you think of it as a donation to the future development of cheaper car models down the road or a contribution to the environment, bully for you.
It seems to me that a hybrid electric or pure electric car is not the only choice. Honda's Civic HX coupe gets nearly as good mileage without the extra complication. It uses a lean burn engine and a more expensive catalyst to make up the increase in emissions. More energy efficient and low emission choices can be seen at http://www.greenercars.com or http://www.fueleconomy.gov.
I've driven the first generation Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid. Of the two, I preferred the Honda Civic's driving characteristics. It's also very nicely appointed, were the early Prius was fairly spartan in features. The new Prius has a larger motor which allows it to run on electric more and gets better mileage and is quicker.
If you're brave and/or have great weather, many smaller displacement motorcycles beat out cars for mileage. The need for rain gear and a certain amount of aggression makes these a tough choice for many.
Finally, if you can arrange to live in one of the few pedestrian/bicycle friendly towns you might be able to avoid the whole issue. Carsharing, www.flexcar.com, is available in many such cities.
Good luck with your decision!
Right now, TDIs are:
:)
* fun to drive (german engineering)
* available from small Golf, sedan Jetta, wagon JettaWagen or trendy NewBug
* very safe (tons of safety features by default)
* lotsa torque (you drive torque, not horsepower)
* great mileage (EPA certifies 49 hwy, 42 city)
* you can run on BioDiesel (all or mixture of BioD + diesel)
* soon, Diesel in the US will be very clean (extra low sulphur diesel, like in Europe and Japan)
* diesel is proven technology
* 700 miles on one tank (some guys get 1000 miles)
* diesel fuel has waaay stabler price (no high huckups) than gas
* low maintenance (no sparkplugs, longer oil change intervals...)
* engines made by Audi engineers
* you can easily tinker the engine yourself
Check out http://www.tdiclub.com
I own a TDI and is just great.
Peace!
I'm not sure how the pickup is slow.. The beauty of electric DC motors is the constant acceleration. I'm sure the set points in the current profile that hackers will one day be able to get into the cars to change the performance curves.
For more geekier chemistry on electric/hybrids, here's Princton's chemistry website about hybrid electrics
Pros:
At a stop light, they are silent and no emissions. Silent start-up and DC-motor acceleration until the gas engine kicks on. Cool reuse of breaking energy into charging batteries instead of boring friction and heat in conventional cars. Can be used as a power plant, say, in power outages, or maybe one day, cars plugged into grid can run gas engine to produce electricty during peak times. And they sell pretty well
Cons:
From a cost point of view, they'll never beat out the super-efficient gas motors mini-cars. Battery life and cost of replacement (currently >= value of older hybrid vehicle). The impact on environment for spent toxic chemicals. Engine repairs. (I'm not sure if you've ever look in one, but they are jam-packed with every inch filled and basically unserviceable in terms of the ever fewer small jobs you can do yourself). Oh, and you *MUST* use specially licensed high-voltage service techs, which are few and far between currently. Will cause gas prices to rise -- see econ 101 supply vs. demand
A good source of general information on fuel economy is the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide. This will provide some good information and cold, hard numbers. Of course, the only way to know you'll be really satisfied is by taking one for a test drive.
Remember the Total Infomation Awareness project?
Don't you think they read Slashdot?
And what about your neighbours or the mail guy, have you already forgotten about the Terrorism Information and Prevention System?
Better be a good citizen and get that SUV.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Greascar
I was going to consider a big 4-door diesel pickup (similarly modified) but the cost is roughly 3X the VW! Eeek! Mr. Bank Account vetoed that right after my wife did.
My wife works for a chi-chi culinary school so I have a good source for grease, but any greasy spoon will do.
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
I've got a 2003 Prius, and I wish I had waited a year. Still, the mileage and range kicks ass. The civic is pretty sweet to, though. Especially if you are into modding your car. All the aesthetic and suspension bits from the regular civics fit the hybrid (just no drivetrain parts). The prius has very little aftermarket support.
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
Electric Vehicles are usually fairly enviormentally unfriendly. When you consider how the electricity is generated, and the amount of lead in current electric vehicles. Hybrids are better, but if you factor in the amount of resources utilized in it's creation, there is only one reasonable alternative. BUY A USED CAR. Reduce - Reuse - recycle. These are much more powerful words when it comes to resource utilization. The money saved on the vehicle (probably 10's of thousands of dollars) can be spent on EFF, OSS, GAS, or all the twinkies you can eat. And the amount of resources saved by not building *you* a new car, is much more "enviromentally" friendly the how much petrol you will be burning.
> partial zero emissions
:)
What the hell is a 'partial zero'?
I contemplated replacing my '92 Ford Bronco V8 (11 mpg) with a gas/electric hybrid starting about a year ago. My daily commute was a little longer than when I bought the car, and I wasn't doing as much hauling/camping either, so I figured I go for something a little more fuel-efficient for my commuting vehicle.
In March, I bought a 2003 Beetle with the TDI (diesel) engine. It gets about 45 mpg with 50/50 city/highway driving, and it's got great pickup. The engine only produces 90 hp, but it creates 155 ft-lb of torque. More importantly, the basic diesel engine design is over 100 years old, whereas the electric hybrids are very new developments, and would require mainentance to be performed by the dealer. I prefer to have the option of having my car serviced where I choose, so that factored into my choice.
In addition, about 2/3 of the fuel I put into my car is derived from virgin soy oil, aka: biodiesel. Fueling my car supports my local farmers, keeping my fuel dollars in my local economy instead of adding to the ~100 billion dollars of annual trade deficit just from petroleum imports. In addition, the carbon released into the atmosphere from "burning the bean" releases no new carbon into the air, as that carbon was used by the soy plant during its growth (i.e. biodiesel is "carbon-neutral"). Contrast to burning petroleum, which releases excess carbon from its storage deep inn the earth's crust into the air. In fact, the original demonstration of the diesel engine, ran on peanut oil. Rudolf Diesel's plan was that farmers could grow their own fuel for tractors powered by his engine.
Now, if a Beetle isn't exactly your thing, take a look at the Jetta or Golf with the TDI engines. Take one for a test drive, I dare you. Their fuel economy is just as good as the Beetle, and they have a little more room for hauling, or working under the hood. Now when Jeep releases the Liberty with the diesel engine in 2005, even my SUV can be environmentally conscious =).
In any case, I commend you for checking out more efficient and environmentally friendly options for your vehiclular needs. Good Luck with whatever car you get.
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
If you want to Go Geek, there's nothing like a Greasel Car. Runs for free, lasts longer than a diesel, and smells like popcorn. Plus, the carbon cycle is closed - you're just burning the plants that sucked the CO2 from the air anyway.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
My girlfriend got a 2003 Civic Hybrid with a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) last April. This vehcile is phenominal. As soon as I have the money, I will be getting one myself.
With proper driving technique, I've gotten it as high as 52.6mpg (average). (There is an instantaneous mpg meter beneath the average gauge that shows you what you're getting as you go over hills and so forth--it really helps you adjust your driving for maximum efficiency.) Without much thought, it usually averages between 43-46mpg. With a 12.7 gallon (it might be 13) tank, I've gone as far as 620 miles.
The engineering is quite nice, the car has been very reliable. The ride is remarkably smooth and the acceleration is silky. Handling is amazing. One nasty downside is the car is very light, so it hydroplanes easier than most vehicles. I would highly recommend getting AA-AAA rated tires (like Falkens) if you drive in wet areas a lot. They will help reduce this.
The interior is great too. If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you would think you were driving a regular car (albeit the console is very slick, kind of a retro look). It's a very spatious, full-sized sedan. The backseat floor does not have a hump in the middle and is also quite generous space-wise. I cannot say enough about the interior: it's a very decent size.
A quick summary of how it works: you have a small, 1.3L gasoline engine (I think 52hp). Right on the drive train, just before the transmission is the electric motor (that contribute an aditional 41hp for a total of 93). When electricity is "pumped" into the motor, it obviously reduces the load on the engine. This is used for acceleration and hill climbing. When idle, the electric motor does what all motors do when pushed externally: it generates power to charge the battery. The brakes are regenerative. When you stop at traffic lights or stop-signs, the engine stops to save gasoline. Since it has solid state ignition, it has zero turn-over, so it starts instantly (as soon as you let off the brake).
Apparantly, there are also a variety of hacks that can be done to cause it to favor the electric motor more for those of us who are really light on the gas pedal. I haven't really investigated this, so consider them rumors.
My recommendation: get one ASAP. You will not be disappointed with this car. It could use a few extra trimmings, but even in its simplicity feature-wise, it's a very enjoyable car. My girlfriend calculates it will pay for itself in a matter of 5 years. Nothing much more to say. At least go test drive one.
Oh, and we also looked at the Toyota Prius. Those things suck ass. They are very rough to drive. The computer screen is always full of motion and it's very distracting without lending much usefulness. Furthermore, it's cramped inside and the vehcile controls are just... bizarre. The engine compartment is also very cramped. Doing work on that vehicle would require taking a lot of shit apart, ergo it may be very expensive to service. Handling sucked. Overall, the Toyota Prius is just as shitty as its Echo counterpart.
One last note: you may want to hold off on a hybrid from anyone though. Honda has plans to market a fuel-cell powered electric car in the US within the next couple of years. Those will be far more interesting I think, if they ever actually reach dealerships.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Honda in any way. They just happen to make a spectacular hybrid vehcile.
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Actually I just bought a 2003 Civic Hybrid on Sept 1st. And I can't really complain about much. No the pickup isn't spectacular. It's a 4 cylinder engine and a small one. Total HP is somewhere around 90 *I think*. You don't buy this for power.
500 miles on a tank of gas IS pretty spectacular, when said tank is only 13.2 gallons. 42 mpg average so far, with a mix of commuting and highway driving. That figure is still rising too. I did about a 100 mile round trip highway, and got 53 mpg. Damn nice on the wallet.
The Civic Hybrid is just that. A Civic. The only significant difference is that you can't fold the rear seat down because that's where the battery pack is mounted vertically behind the read seat. Trunk space? you couldn't even the tell battery pack was there if it wasn't pointed out to you. Plenty of space for normal people.
The dealer readily admits they aren't entirely sure how long the battery pack will remain useful. So it comes with an 8 yr 80k mile warranty on that system; independant of the vehicle warranty. I got a 6 yr 100k total vehicle warranty so it's good for as long as I realistically plan to have it.
Geek factor: I'm finding it's cool being able to watch (& feel) the electric assist kick in. Or the engine shut off while I'm braking to a stop. The engine shut off is selectable; there's an 'econ' button on the dash. If it's not selected then the engine won't stop. Summer and needing AC are the main reason for that. The AC doesn't run if the engine isn't running. The fan still works but it can get warm. Having the option is a nice touch.
I'm still in the 'new car' mode of figuring things out, but this has a whole knew paradigm of stuff to figure out. The dash gauges are a pretty informative mix of what's going on. It has a instant mpg bar that goes up n down as you drive, as well as displaying the overall mpg for a trip mileage. (2 of these). One I have on total vehicle mileage so I can see what I'm getting as I continue driving. The other I use for various trips to see what different types of driving produce fuel economy wise.
All in all I'm very happy with it so far.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
and my wife and I love it.
We have been driving it for 2 years in both city and highway, and in all kinds of weather (we live in Michigan). It drives well, has the most comfortable seats of any car I've ever ridden in, and gets excellent mileage.
We average about 35 mpg city (due to lots of very short trips in cold weather where the engine doesn't get a chance to warm up properly), and 43 mpg highway. A little less than advertised, but still pretty darn good.
We take it on 2-3 extensive road trips each year, anywhere from 600-2000 miles round trip. It is always a great way to travel.
It has a decent amount of power. A little less than some larger cars, but we rarely have trouble getting up to speed quickly on the highway. It's certainly not like driving a Ford Escort or some similar gerbil-mobile.
One of the nice things about a Prius is that, in addition to the good mileage, the emissions are outstandingly low. Many economy cars can achieve the mileage of a Prius, but none of them qualify as a SULEV (Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle) according to the EPA. I believe this is better than the competing vehicles from Honda, but that may have changed with the new Civic.
The new Prius for 2004 will be larger and have a hatchback, so it's even more practical that the older version. I wish we could afford to trade ours in for the new one!
The Prius comes with a full 8-year warranty on the hybrid electrical system, so that should help alleviate any concerns you might have on the long-term reliability of the car.
In short, I highly recommend the Prius. There is a yahoogroup dedicated to the Prius as well, if you are interested in more user experiences. You can find it here.
Good luck with your decision!
--Scott
Type something, will you? We're paying for this stuff!
The other day I was looking at the Volkswagen website. They make the Jetta, Golf and Passat in diesel models. They all get 49 mpg highway. I know that in my town, diesel is a few cents cheaper than regular (87) unleaded gas. I just don't know if the diesel models are available everywhere.
Actually, Hybrid cars are excellent for highway driving! Only one part of driving a hybrid is the regenerative braking -- the other part is the fact that the electric motors assist the gasoline engine while driving, making for some excellent MPGs on the highway, too!
Before you excuse them as non-workable for you, you ought to test drive one and see the great MPGs you get on your commute.
They are a great value. Your mom would be proud of you.
If driven properly, you should see as high as 46-48mpg in city driving. If you drive with little concern for economy, you usually get around 43-45mpg.
How about on long road trips?Again, driven carefully, I've gotten as high as 52.6mpg on my girl's Honda Civic Hybrid. That is accomplished by driving around ~55mph and slowing a bit when climbing hills. If you drive aggressively (say, 65-70mpg constant), you get around 47-48mpg. They can certainly keep up with traffic, mind you.
Remember, this experience is with a Honda Civic Hybrid, not a Prius. Your milage (arf) will vary.
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First, the good news: I drive my car about 40 miles a day (driving commutes suck!) and get around 55 miles per gallon. My commute is about 70%/30% highway to city driving. When I drive it around the city (which I generally try _not_ to do - Boston is bike-friendly enough, plus I live near the T), I get mileage closer to 50 mpg, and when I've gone on longer roadtrips it's up near 60 mpg.
More good news: It's a real car. It seats five. It has a reasonable sized trunk (not huge, though). With a few exceptions, it's very similar to the non-hybrid Civic, so my car is comfortable, well equipped (CD player, power everything, ABS, etc.) and pretty well designed. I wasn't interested in the Insight 'cause it's small and somewhat awkward and not what I call a "real" car.
The not-so-good news: The one large complaint I have about the car is that the back seat does not fold down (that's where they stashed the batteries).
Some economics: I spent a little less than $20K on my car. The hybrid is about three or four thousand more than the regular Civic. I'll get a $2000 deduction on my 2003 income tax (giving me about $600), and I'll save some (but not tons) on gas vs. the regular Civic that probably adds up to over about $1500 over 100,000 miles. So basically, I break even. If I had bought a used car, I would've spent far less money, even in the long run.
I think I made the right decision when I bought my car because:
So, the bad news is that supporting hybrid technology and being good to the environment (while still owning a car) is an expensive proposition right now. The good news is that the more and more people are buying the cars and that if you can afford them, they're quality automobiles.
I'd be happy to answer questions about the Civic or my decision-making process. I also collected some links and made some notes about the car - you can see those here.
I've owned a Toyota Prius for almost a year and I could not be happier with it.
I originally got it since I would be commuting from to DC from Richmond and not only would I save on the gas, but I could cruise in the HOV!!!
All the reviews I've read have been right. It's a very well designed machine.
For me, however, the best part is just how quiet the thing is. Even when at 85 MPH (slow lane speed on 95!), it's extremely quiet. Nothing like it for long trips with the MP3 player full of LEGALLY ACQUIRED TUNES!
I don't recommend spending the extra $1200 - $1500 for the in-dash GPS. I test drove one with it and decided not to get it. It's pretty cool for awhile, but it's pretty distracting and has a very limited use, IMO.
Now, if it displayed all the wide-open wireless nets, it'd be worth it!
***************
Since Oregon gets so much of its road fund from gas taxes, some bright people in congress got the idea of charging hybrids (and electrics) more money to register them. One of the gov. officials actually was quoted as saying that hybrid and electric car owners aren't paying "their fair share" of road fees. Arguably, a two-thousand pound car with skinny tires probably has the least effect on roads and road repair.
Nobody brought up the idea of free registration for gas-guzzlers. ;)
(By the way, my screen name is not necessarily because I'm a great thinker, but because I own a Honda Insight!)
Pros:
Cons:
Hope that's helpful to those considering the Hybrid. We definitely like ours, and should someday Honda do a Hybrid Accord, we'd be first in line for one.
Take care,
Brian
--
http://www.assortedinternet.com - CPanel Web Hosting running on Red Hat Linux
the "few modifications" are engine chip mods that give you more power but are illegal in Europe because they cause the engine to produce excessive amounts of ultra-fine particles which cause lung cancer. In recent research on street-dogs in Mexico-city, the particles were found back in the dogs' brains. Nevertheless, a Golf(Rabbit) or Beetle TDI will straight out of the factory kick the buts of an awefull lot these US hovercr^H^H^H SUV's.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
We have a 2002 Toyota Prius and we love it. We get around 43 MPG and about 500 miles on a tank of gas. The tax credit (10% of the purchase price) was great and we are working on GA legislation to enable hybrids to drive in the carpool lanes as AFVs can today.
I would recommend a Prius to anyone as Toyota is also a great company to do business with. My mother is planning to purchase a 2004 Prius which has significant improvements over the current model. My only advice against buying might be to wait for the 2004 Prius. A new hybrid engine which will be much better is expected.
Rumours also have it that there will be a Lexus SUV with the new Toyota Hybrid engine in 2005.
Come play Moral Decay!
I took a job which requires about 150 miles of travel per day, so I purchased the car for basic transportation. I purchased the manual transmission model due to personal preference, YMMV (literally) with the automatic model. On average, I get between 52 and 58 mpg on basic highway driving at 65 mph. Air conditioning will take 5 mpg off of that. Traveling at 75 mph will drop another 5 to 8 off of that. Wind and weather conditions can effect the mileage as well. Stop and go driving in town with the air on will net me 35 to 40 mpg. Drafting semis on the Interstate at 75 mph will get you 60+ mpg.
I'm a big guy - 6'4" and 250 lbs, and I fit in the machine pretty well. I have about an inch of headroom left. I can get the seat far enough back, but no one but a child would be able to sit behind me.
I paid less than $20000 for it - plus there is a one-time $2000 tax-deduction, so that's a bonus.
I've put about 16000 miles on it so far. It drives and handles like any other 4 cylinder basic transportation car I've ever driven. The torque is better, though, so I don't feel like I'm going to have to get out and push while trying to get onto the Interstate.
Some nits: It takes 0W20 oil, which I've had trouble finding. The good news is that oil changes are only every 5000 miles. It doesn't have much cargo capacity - total weight is only 800 lbs. You can really tell the difference when you have it full. The rear seats don't fold down like a standard Civic (the batteries sit on the rear axle), so the trunk is a little confining. I would only rate it at one-dead-body.
Overall, it's been great regular transportation. I liked it alot better than the other Honda hybrid. That car was smaller and lighter and got pushed around on the Interstate. This is a regular Civic in most every way except the powertrain.
----------
If your answer is Microsoft, you obviously didn't understand the question.
I have been following hybrid cars since their commercial debut with the Honda Insight. The two major hybrid cars out now are the Honda Civic hybrid and the Toyota Prius.
The Honda has a pancake-shaped electric motor bolted to the engine where the flywheel originally was. This is simple and straightforward, and it means that they can (and do) treat the hybrid as just another option in the car, like leather seats. The significant downside is, though, that the electric motor and gasoline motor must always run at the same speed -- there is no way to run just on the electric engine (say).
The Prius uses a planetary gearbox to mix the outputs from the gasoline and electric motors. The gearbox acts as a mechanical 'adder', adding the two outputs together regardless of their relative speed. This allows the Prius to be much more flexible in how it runs its motor -- allowing significantly increase in-city fuel economy. Astonishingly, the Prius's city MPG numbers are higher than their highway MPG numbers, because the car can often run on purely electric power in stop-and-go traffic. Also, because the car's computer has flexible and complete control over the gas engine, they can make the engine significantly lighter and more efficient -- because they can ensure (for instance) that it is never over-revved.
The new Prius a huge advance over old one. The original had the same body as the Toyota Echo, perhaps the ugliest car every built. The new one is bigger, sleeker, much more practical with a big hatchback, and gets significantly better fuel economy than the old one. It's a true 21st century car. The New York Times review, two weeks ago, was a flat-out rave.
The only criticism I have of the Prius is that it is quite complex mechanically -- and those mechnical things can go wrong. Like any other Linux user, I feel somewhat bad about handing over so much control to the car's computer, even though I know in my heart that it's the right thing to do.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
repair costs
What makes hybrids affordable is that there are massive government subsidies reducing the price of the car. This masks the fact that many of the parts for these cars are enormously expensive. A hybrid Civic that gets into a minor city-street collision with a minivan or SUV is probably going to be so expensive to repair, that the insurance company will want to total it out.
If the long-term potential costs of maintenance and parts doesn't scare you off, and you don't expect to haul a boat trailer or something, then the hybrid cars can be a terrific way to go. Fantastic gas millage and a super-quiet ride. The inventor of regenerative breaks should get a medal.
Personally, I'll stick with my Crown Victoria for now. It may drink gas, (I get about 20 MPG from my highway and city driving combined) but it's safe, it seats six, and has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags. Plus, the V8 is powerful enough to tow a lot of stuff when I need to, and the suspension is so smooth, it's like driving a hovercraft. Best of all, the reputation for being an "old man's car" means cheap insurance in spite of being almost the same car that the cops are tearing around town in.
The Crown Vic LS is like a Lincoln town car for half the price, and is the most under-rated car of the last decade, IMHO.
If you really want to get a hybrid car, consider looking for a used Toyota Prius, perhaps sold by some Yuppie asshole who only bought it to be trendy, and wants to trade up to a Mini Cooper S now that Minis are considered the New Hotness.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Corporate propoganda here and a positive review in the New York Times here.
Conventional wisdom says that cars you intend to keep for a long time you should buy; cars you intend to keep for a short time and replace, you should lease. Following that line of reasoning, any type of car that's founded on quickly changing technology is a car you're going to want to replace in a short time, and therefore you should lease, not buy.
I hope that after I die the one word people use to describe me is "resurrected."
I test drove a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and must say I was quite impressed. The pickup was nice, but about on par with a normal Civic. I mean let's face it, the car is still a Civic. The instrument panel was quite attractive, but the only nagging concern I would have about the Hybrid cars is battery life. Until these cars have been out on the road for a number of years we really won't know what the life expectancy is for the battery. I asked the sales rep and replacing the battery in the Civic would not be cheap. Still, if you're willing to take that risk I'd say go for it. The Hybrids look like great cars from what I've read/experienced. Just be aware of the possibility of replacing the battery.
Oh, and don't ask the sales rep about the battery life. One, they don't know, and two they'll say something like "I've heard it lasts longer than the car". I tried asking the sales rep I was talking to and he admitted point 1 and said point 2.
KhyronI had a 2000 VW Gold TDI and pulled 700 miles on a 15 gallon tank. I'm backwards-math-dyslexic but anybody should know that some crazy mad milage. Not bad for a car that has ~150 ft/lbs tourque. That and ya can fill up with the big rigs.
I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed.
p l
I have never owned a car in my entire life.
I ride my bike everywhere I go. I save thousands of dollars on gas, insurance, maintenance, parking, tickets, registration, etc. I stay fit, so I save time and money on medical bills/healthcare. Since Im totally in shape, I definitely have more success getting girlfriends too.
I live in Seattle where the climate is fairly mild but it rains half the year. Biking in the rain sounds horribly unpleasant, biking uphill sounds horribly unpleasant. Biking in traffic sounds horribly unpleasant. You get used to all of these things when you have no other means of transport...and they quickly become non-issues. I find myself biking up the steepest hills in the city multiple times a day without thought, without exhaustion.
In Seattle, bikes can be put on the front of buses on a very well designed bike rack. So you can ride the bus uphill to a location (usually faster than biking) and bike back down (which is faster than bussing back downhill). If its pouring and Gore-Tex isn't good enough (which is rare in Seattle, believe it or not) you can always put your bike on the bus. Another reason it's nice to put your bike on the bus is if you don't want to arrive at your destination all sweaty...but you can still zip home really fast.
Bikes has been a very practical method of transportion, and its better for the environment and for the general health of the population. It's even better than driving an electric car.
There are times however when I wish I could escape the city altogether... I usually find girls with cars to take me out of the city. There are times when I wish I could hall a large object, like a computer monitor, or appliance. I can usually arrange to borrow cars from friends although I have been known to bring large objects onto the bus.
Naturally, the distance you travel everyday and your physical condition will dictate the practicality of riding a bike. But if your chief concern is helping the environment... there is no better chioce.
You can probably buy a fantastic bike every single year for same expense as buying/oiperating one used car.
Consider it.
PS. The Seattle bus system has a half-decent online trip planner that facilitates timing your trips.
http://tripplanner.metrokc.gov/cgi-bin/itin_page.
you need to look at a deisel. The Deisel engine was built to run on peanut oil and with very minor modification most all deisel trucks and coups today can be modified to run on a mix of alcohol and vegitable oil ....the emissions smell like frenchfries and is clean as can be. Also this fuel is renewable and about the same price per gallon as gasoline. ...check out grassoline.com to learn more.
Try my new smokable Sig,
I have a 2001 prius, and I like it. The primary disadvantage comes if something goes wrong.
m essage/14361)
Jump it wrong? 10k to fix the damage, at least according to someone at the dealership. (Something went horribly wrong there, the cost of the battery itself is 4000, with prices expected to drop to 1000 according to http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/
They will be cost effective, but they aren't just yet. Don't get me wrong, I really like mine and I'd love to have a 2004, but it isn't a choice to be made on economics.
Diesals are cheap, so if you only care about saving money it's a good alternative, BUT if you care about the enviroment it's far worse than petrol and hybrid alternatives.
It is true that modern diesel engines produce a lot less carbon dioxide than before, so some people claim diesels are enviromentally friendly, but diesels produce much more of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and toxic particulate matter (or soot) into the air we breathe than petrol counterparts. These particles, because they are small enough to be inhaled deep into the lungs, can cause or exacerbate a variety of serious health problems.
Even with the EuroIV(2005) and EuroV(2008) regulations, diesels are still much larger pollutants than petrol engines, and release more arsenic, lead, sulfur, and other particulate matter into the enviroment.
I own a Toyota Prius, which is a Parallel type hybrid, meaning that the electrical drive systems operate parallel to the gasoline drive train, and can be switched on and off. The honda hybrid system is a serial system, in which the gas drive train and the electrical drive train are in line with each other and the electrical drive train operates all of the time.
The practical difference is that the parallel system gets less gas mileage (real life results 45-47 MPG) but is environmentally cleaner owing to the fact that the engine can be shut off at idle, when most of your engine emissions occur. The serial system gets more mileage, but my experience is that they don't have as much power. My Prius blows the doors off of my boss' Civic hybrid.
So keep in mind that there are differences between the designs. Just because you like or dislike one, doesn't mean that you won't feel different about the other.
I have never found myself wishing for more pickup. Acceleration is excellent, and it has surprising climbing power. My daily climb up 2000 feet (over 50 miles) never requires me to move over to the slow lane.
The car is roomy. The trunk is very functional, and it is a four door. The cup holders suck.
All that being said, you could probably get the same mileage out of a cheaper conventional compact car. Hybrids are about $3000 to $4000 more than a cheap gasoline powered compact, so you really need to have some commitment to the environmental benefits. If all you are looking for is good gas mileage, buy a Toyota Echo or something similar.
Bottom line: I have no regrets about the Prius, and I am debating trading this one in on the new 2004, which is a four door hatchback instead a trunk.
Pet Peeve #843290: The new trend of prefixing comments with "Pet Peeve #i+1"
Pet Peeve #i+2 - I fed my Pet Peeve today. He ate everything. I was so proud. Then I shaved him and took him outside to play, where he was suddenly run over by some insensitive clod in an SUV.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
2000-current Honda Insight, 2-seater:p ?ModelName=Insight
p ?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid
l e.html and here http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/specs/specs_b ody.html )
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2003-current Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2001-2003 Toyota Prius 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.toyota.com/prius
2004 Toyota Prius 5-passenger midsize liftback:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/index.html
(for those who dislike Flash, info here:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/html/printab
if you live in Japan there is also the hybrid
Estima (7-8 passenger minivan similar to the Previa),
and the mild-hybrid Crown large sedan.
if you can wait a year or so, Ford should have out
their hybrid Escape (info: http://www.hybridford.com (Flash only),
a "small" SUV/CUV that actually has towing capacity.
Lexus should also have their RX330 hybrid (the
RX400H) small SUV/CUV out (see http://www.lexus.com/about/hybrid/index.html
with Toyota shortly following with the hybrid
Highlander cousin.
I've also heard of the GM/Saturn Vue, the Nissan
Altima (I think that's the model), and the Toyota
Sienna, as next on the block with hybrid powertrains
(i.e. full/assist hybrids).
-mrv
Before I decided to fall back to my usual pattern and buy a good used car, I considered seriously both an Insight and a Prius. Test-drove both, and found them to be acceptable for most normal types of driving. But these cars are more disparate in design strategy than the press would have you understand. The differences can help you decide which type is best for you. The Honda Civic and Insight are gasoline engine-powered cars with a supplementary electric motor to provide extra power when needed for acceleration and/or hill-climbing. Thus they get better mileage on flat open highways when they can run in overdrive on gasoline power only. The Toyota Prius (both the current one and the new one being introduced) are electric cars with a supplementary gasoline engine to provide extra power at speeds over 15-20 mph and to charge the batteries when required. Thus they get better mileage at slow speed and in stop & go traffic where they can run mostly on battery power. Other differences that result from the above design strategies: 1. At stop-lights, both shut down completely. But if you then start up by slowly pressing the accelerator (or the clutch on a manual) the Honda will start its gasoline engine and begin to move (with an automatic transmission) or run and wait for you to shift and pop the clutch. The Prius will begin to move forward on electric power only, and will not start the gasoline engine unless you push the accelerator down faster or reach a speed of about 15 mph. 2. Thus in stop & go traffic the Prius functions mostly as an electric automobile and can get very good mileage in these conditions. However, heating and air conditioning for the car need the higher power of the gasoline engine. So in the far north and far south of the US people should expect to get lower gas mileage than the car's specifications indicate. (I think this is one of the reasons Toyota has cycled through a redesign faster than Honda has.)
Got the same car. Love it. Not too long ago I read some article (in Ars Technica) about how driving the HCH changes the way you drive. It's absolutely true. I'm from a country where people drive with intent to kill. Stop signs are taken as suggestions. Always drove fast, recklessly and (my wife would argue) stupidly. I was brought up that way, sorry. Anyway, since I got the HCH my only goal while driving is to maximize the mileage. This model comes with an instantaneous mileage reading and a cumulative one. So now I rarely go over 68 mph. I'm getting 57~58 mpg on the road, and around 48 in the city (I have the manual shift one - another cultural hangup). There's just one thing that I started doing that is definitely moronic. I tend to lock on big semis and tailgate them to improve the mileage even more. Feel like Lance Armstrong. Except he's not retarded, I think. Anyway the technology on these guys is pretty awesome. You get to a stop sign, and the engine stops. Start rolling again and the engine starts as you press the accelerator. A thing of beauty. Plus it's really quiet, and if you choose to ignore it, you would never know that you are not driving just a regular Civic. Finally, you get an obnoxious smug feeling when the idiots on the SUV zoom by you. (Though you could hit 100 mph if you were not so compulsively trying to break the barrier of 60 mpg).
They are still CRAP (TM). They will continue to be crap until they are 100% fuel cell driven or batery driven. If your main engine is electric having breaking recouperation makes sense. If it is hybrid it only adds weight, complexity and increases maintenance costs and it cannot recoup more then around 20% of the used energy ().
For example the new Toyota Prius delivers lower MPG then the Daihatsu Sirion which is made by the same Toyota group (51 best vs 57 best). It is also slower and more sluggish (14 s to 62 compared to under 9.0). It also has higher emissions (almost twice worse on all counts). All of it while carrying the same amount of passengers and having only 30 liters more luggage space. It has a huge maintenance bill as the battery cells last only around 40-50 thousand miles and it has high ongoing maintenance as well. It is also a bomb. There are very few things that are more suicidal then sitting on a shorting battery in an accident with a fuel tank nearby.
Also I will not even compare it to a modern diesel. The new Audi A2 TDI which once again carries the same number of people and has the same luggage space (320 or so liters) can deliver 80mpg with even less emissions then the Sirion. That is VW which I hate. Still it is the diesel king, but Peugeot, Mitsubishi and several others are not that far behind with figures in the 50-60 MPG with corresponding emissions for a small family car. They also beat the crap out of the Prius on maintenance, acceleration and overall driving experience.
Hybrids are not the answer. They help develop technology which is useful for fuel cell or fully electric vehicles, but they are definitely not the answer. So I think they should be sponsored even further so that technology can be developed. But I will not buy one. I will chose something less polluting.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Do the math: let's say you drive 12k miles a year, this is 285 gallons of gas. So you pay around $500 a year for gas. A regular sedan owner with 21 mpg would pay twice as much, ie $500 a year more. In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service.
So from the point of view of money, hybrids do not worth it - and would be considerably worse if automakers were not forced to sell them (some percentage of total cars sold should be hybrid or electric in U.S.).
I think hybrids are great for environment and a cool techno gadget, but hopes of saving on gas - forget about it. Not in the U.S. where gas is still very cheap (compare with Europe).
MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
I prefer my hydrogen powered Jeep, but maybe that's just me.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
You're forgetting the cost of replacing the battery pack in ten years. Unlike an engine that you can baby forever, these battery packs will die and will nessessitate replacement. The cost of replacement is estimated to be around five thousand dollars. When the car is worth $2000 in ten years with a good battery, replacement isn't going to be economical.
Remember too, the Insight has a maximum payload of 365 pounds -- including passengers. Hope you don't know anyone who's even slightly overweight.
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what econ course did you take?
How about "Excise tax theory"? Hybrid vehicles use less petrol but tear up the roads just as much, government has less money for road repairs, government increases petrol excise, price at pump goes up.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Trunk space? ... Plenty of space for normal people.
And with the 500 miles off of a single tank of gas, there is no credit card trail at gas stations on the way to drop off the body. Efficient and practical.
I did about a 100 mile round trip highway, and got 53 mpg. Damn nice on the wallet.
But...
1) How much more did you pay than you would have if you purchased a conventional car?
2) How many miles do you plan on putting on the car?
3) Is the difference in up front cost more than the amount that you are saving?
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
Whatever about the mileage improvements of a gasoline-electric vehicle, many posters have already pointed out that current clean-burning modern diesel cars already get 50-70 mpg. All the major manufacturers (yes even the American ones, though of course the Europeans are ahead in diesel technology) are bringing out diesel-electric hybrids over the next few years. This innovation should add around 50% to the mileage of typical diesel cars. Within 10 years we will see 100mpg diesel-electric hybrids.
Da Blog
I disagree -- the aftermarket support it has is pretty good. I've installed a number of these kits and been very happy with them.
That said, the Prius is pretty self-consciously a hybrid car, trying to establish a unique, "high-tech" look; the Civic Hybrid does a good job of not calling attention to itself. Your choice.
This article will change your mind a little about these hybrids:
2004 Toyota Prius
Notes:
1. Average *combined* city/highway mpg is 55!
2. 0-60 in 10s! Not bad at all.
it is the cash flow that matters, not the total savings.
your month to month savings on the thing is more important than the over all costs.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Check out the eCycle, a diesel-electric hybrid motorcycle that gets 180MPG (no typo). The only disadvantage I see is that they aren't out yet... :^)
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
This isn't the case with the Civic. The IC engine is the primary drive. The electric motor just 'assists' under heavier loads.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
I've had the 2003 Civic Hybrid since Feb. and I've been happy with it as well.
The AutoStop feature is exactly as advertised. When the conditions are right and you're coasting towards a red light with your breaks on, the engine cuts. When you lift your foot off the brake, it restarts in the time it takes to get your foot to the gas pedal. Everyone else is burning 0 MPG gas, you're running the radio and fan off of the battery. (BTW... The standard-issue radio sounds great when you totally lose the engine background, not that the engine ever gets loud in the first place.)
This isn't an high-speed acceleration car, but it will get you up to highway speed fast enough to keep up with the crowds.
The gas savings in cash isn't quite enough to make up for the addition to your car payment over the standard Civic, but you can get the warm fuzzy feeling that your overpayment is going to Japan rather than the oil barrons...
It's a fuel efficient penis extension...
Yes, Civic Hybrids are fairly expensive vehicles for what you get. It's a matter of weighing the appropriate price-performance ratio.
It should be interesting to note that while Honda sells these for about 20,000$, Honda manufactures them at 30,000$ (according to a salesperson at Herson's Honda in Rockville, MD).
So while it's good that we're supporting hybrid technology and trying to encourage auto manufacturers, they may not move forward as quickly as we'd like. Perhaps with increased popularity, they'll produce a higher volume and refine the manufacturing process? Who knows.
Unfortunately, according to the same salesperson, Honda is interested in selling these vehicles so they can reduce the average vehicle emmissions of all cars they sell. This allows them to legally sell more SUVs and other gas guzzlers (hence they are willing to make a 10,000$ write-off on every Civic Hybrid). Nothing for free it seems. What a lousy trade-off.
Join Tor today!
A friend of mine said tires have been a problem on his Prius. I did a quick web search and came up with this and this. It's not a show-stopper, but it is something you want to be aware of.
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die...
You're forgetting the great tax benefits you get with owning a hybrid.
politics, food, music, life: FatMixx
Something interesting (to me) is that they get BETTER milage in the city than on the highway. Look at the two popular ones... it looks like a typo when they say something like 45 city/39 highway.
My belief of why:
The recovery of power when braking in the city combined with the engine idle not being wasted at stoplights (gets converted to stored power)
versus
the squared function of air resistance in highway driving (as speed doubles, the air resistance quadruples).
I've had my Civic Hybrid for a week now. I'm getting about 40 mpg with a lot of city and heavy traffic driving (Newark, NJ). It's slowly but steadily going up, though. Earlier this week it was 38 or so.
The engine shut-off isn't quite what it's cracked up to be. Yeah, when you stop at a light or in traffic the engine shuts off. But if you creep forward a bit the engine won't shut off the next time you stop. You have to get up to a certain speed or go a certain distance/time (not sure yet what the rules actually are) or next time you stop the engine stays on. And it doesn't even recharge the battery at that time. It's very frustrating because I sit in a lot of stop & go traffic and you can't just stay put when all the cars in front of you are rolling. You let off the brake and the engine kicks back on, and the only way to ensure it turns off next time is to let a big gap form between you and the car in front of you then gun it and step on the brake. Not a thing you want to be doing in heavy traffic.
I'm not yet 100% convinced a hybrid was the best choice. The gas mileage is great and the ultra low emissions is nice, but I passed up on a lot of frills to get them. (You can get the top model Civic practically maxed out for less than the hybrid.. you give up a sun roof, fog lights, fold-down rear seats, and more). But for all intents and purposes, even the hybrid is just a regular car. It's spunky enough. I've had no trouble getting up to speed on the highway or keeping up the speed. Even with such a "weak" engine it still goes pretty fast. And besides, it's one of the only cars that gives you that 'holier than thou' feeling. So maybe I'm 80% convinced. Ask me again in a couple of weeks.
Anything less than perfection is failure.
I bought a new civic in 2002. I didn't buy the Hybrid, even though I really wanted to. Here's why. 1: Battery needs to be replaced roughly at the 100K mile mark. At the time I was looking, they said that was on the order of a $1500-$2000 service. 2: Sticker price of the car is roughly $4000 more than that of a normal "LX" model. 3: I really hated the interior color. This is a real trivial thing, but... I really just didn't like the beige and brown thing. 4: It was a brand new first-year model, and I generally don't buy first-years, especially on drastic technology changes. When the '04s come out very soon (if not already) then this one is solved. That said, there were some benefits: 1: A $2000 tax credit (in CA) which wouldn't have affected me much, because as a semi-poor college student, I didn't pay $2000 in taxes... 2: I figured an estimated savings of $2500-$3000 over the life of the battery (given my driving) 3: A few little bonuses are included in the car, such as climate control, which I think is really spiffy. 4: It's a hybrid. Awesome geek toy 5: Gives me even more reason to mock all the SUV drivers out there. In the end, I decided that, over the life of the battery (I'd probably sell the car at the 100k mark rather than fix it) I'd save about $3000-$4000 and spend about $4000 extra NOW for the privelage. If the following 3 things were true, I'd have bought it: 1: I paid enough taxes that I could really benefit from the $2000 tax credit 2: The interior/exterior were available in some better colors. 3: It wasn't the very first model year. If only two of these were true, I might still have done it. But none were, so I didn't.
However, the poster commented that, as with laptops, these batteries are unlikely to last more than a couple of years, and will then have to be replaced by the owner, at the unsubsidized replacement cost.
Is this true? Anyone care to comment on the battery issue? Again, it was a while ago, so my memory may be faulty, or the original poster may have been full of shit, which is why I'm asking. This post is meant merely as a question, not as anti-hybrid FUD.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I test drove all three (Civic, Prius, TDI) but chose a Golf TDI because it was less expensive than either the Civic Hybrid or Prius, and VW's ergonomics are far better than the Civic and Prius (the new Prius is going to be a far better experience than the initial version). Plus, with VW cars you can get the Monsoon sound upgrade for a nominal fee (8-amp, 8-speaker CD/Tape/FM/AM) in all models. The Golf TDI comes in two flavors (GL, GLS) and the Jetta TDI comes in both sedan and station wagon, also in GL and GLS trim. That's right, a real, honest to God station wagon that isn't half bad and can really haul a decent load.
The TDI will gladly haul you at over 100 MPH if need be, and I typically get 43 MPG driving in D/FW traffic well above the posted limits and/or in horrendous sprawl-induced jams. Stick with the five-speed unless you simply cannot drive a standard ... the extra mileage will make you smile. I usually drive 560 miles between fillups, and I often have a gallon or more left in the tank at that point (VW's ad claims 750 miles between fillups ... that's possible if you drive 65 MPH and hit no traffic on Interstates).
P.S. The typical diesel gas pump is a filthy mess unless you buy diesel at the pricier pay-at-the-pump stations that actually offer it (usually there are only one or two diesel pumps). Truck stops have the best prices ... usually ten to twenty cents per gallon below the national brand stations, but they're really nasty to fill up at (and no one in an eighteen wheeler, let alone a "dually" pickup, can see your TDI).
The two most common things in the Universe are dark matter and stupidity.
In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service. However, in the states we get a nice $3k (I think that's the right figure) tax exemption which means you're in the black after only the second year of ownership.
Where am I supposed to shit? If I can't shit on my environment (well, more properly, IN my environment), what am I supposed to do with my poop?
Washington.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
"The dash gauges are a pretty informative mix of what's going on. It has a instant mpg bar that goes up n down as you drive, as well as displaying the overall mpg for a trip mileage. (2 of these). One I have on total vehicle mileage so I can see what I'm getting as I continue driving. The other I use for various trips to see what different types of driving produce fuel economy wise."
:)
:)
My parent's 1988 Ford Aerostar had all that. My dad's 95 VW Jetta had that, as does my brother's 2000 Jetta. I'm sort of amused that most people haven't had this kind of thing for years.
I think you missed a key point - he's not talking about mileage, he's talking about a REALTIME miles-per-gallon display. That is the instantaneous mpg your vehicle is traveling at a moment in time. I have a 2000 Jetta with every option, and unless he added it afterwards, your brother does NOT have this option.
On a different note on this feature, the only cars I've seen with a real-time mpg display before the hybrids started coming out was all the BMWs (that I've driven) for the last decade or so. It is a very handy feature that I think more cars SHOULD have. It's amazing to see how little changing your highway speed in a BMW M3, for example, makes the different between a constant 20mpg on the highway and between a constant 25-30mpg.
It's also very amusing to watch your realtime mpg when you're jaunting around a racetrack. If you want to see how hard you're really driving the car, it's alot more telling to watch the mpg instead of the speedometer or even the tach. I still get a thrill everytime I blip the throttle to downshift to third at turn 11 at Thunderhill and watch the mpg dial spike from 20 to almost zero in an instant.
"This is Zombo Com, and welcome to you who have come to Zombo Com" - www.zombo.com
Natural gas is almost entirely domestically produced. It costs less than $1.50 a gallon of gasoline equivalent, and it is renewable and clean. Plus, here in California an alternative fuel and low emission vehicle gets you permission to use the commuter lanes, even over toll-bridges, which can save considerable time and money.
And in case you hadn't guessed, I like mine pretty well. Range and trunk space aren't good, but they aren't embarrasing either. Availability needs to be improved, but I happen to have a PG&E station just along my commute path, so it works out fine for me.
--
BitTorrent in C -- LibBT
http://www.sf.net/projects/libbt
A hybrid Civic that gets into a minor city-street collision with a minivan or SUV is probably going to be so expensive to repair, that the insurance company will want to total it out.
A Honda Civic Hybrid that gets into a "minor" collision is going to use the exact same parts to repair as a non-hybrid Civic!!! Meaning there is less chance of it getting totaled, because it cost more!!! The only non standard parts are the engine, batteries, and dashboard. The batteries are in the safest place in the car -- behind the rear seat. If your batteries and dashboard are destroyed, you've got bigger problems then replacing your car -- you're most likely dead. "Minor" collisions rarely require replacing engines; if you're in a collision that requires a new engine, your car is probably totalled regardless of whether or not it is a hybrid!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
I hate to burst your bubble, but Civics are very reliable. Do a quick search for Civic reliability and you'll see they're rated *VERY* well.
"Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling...." - Abraham Simpson
What, if you hit a telephone pole and power lines fall on you?
You die. That stuff is really heavy.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
It's about discharge power. One of the real challenges in battery selection is the total power they can output, which is dependent on the battery architectures. This is why you need different batteries for "high-drain" devices like camera flashes than you do for, say, a walkman. For acceleration, you need the drain as high as possible, and at some point it tops out.
It's hard, given all the engineering considerations, to make a battery that drains as fast (ie, Watts) as a typical gasoline engine.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
_1_ - .31Cd for the newer, more aerodynamic 240sx...
.34 or .35 Cd for the 1997 model.
.30 Cd for the 1991 240SX SE
.29 Cd for 2003 350Z Track Model!
.26 Cd?
_2_ -
_3_ -
_4_ -
So now, you still claim your old 240sx has
I think there's some emotional attachment here...
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Have had it for a year, and learned a lot about them.
There are three hybrids being sold right now:
- Honda Civic Hybrid
- Honda Insight
- (2003) Toyota Prius
The Hondas use a gas engine as their primary engine with an electric engine (which doubles as a generator during braking) as a secondary source of acceleration. Think of this arrangement as a gas engine with a massive-battery-powered electric supercharger. If the electric engine fails, the gas engine will still get you there -- it just accelerates slower.
The Prius is the other way around -- its primary engine is electric, and a secondary gas engine gives it the acceleration. In the Prius, it is possible to drive (with very little gas pedal pressure) on electric alone -- something the Prius owners call "Zen driving." If the gas engine fails, you can still drive on the electric.
Reliability:
I know people who own both a Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH) and a 2003 Prius. I personally own the HCH. I would have no hesitation in buying one again. I average 54 MPG in the summer, and 45 MPG in the winter. Range is ~600 miles per tank; I drive 50 miles a day, and fill up twice a month. I have heard that it is possible to get ~700 miles/tank in a Prius, but have never got a first hand report of that.
The Honda had one early bug with deep, cold weather -- very occasionally, the electric system would shut down and not restart until the car was shut down and restarted. A flash of the computer firmware fixed it. Many people reported this problem. It also had an issue with a squeak in a support pillar, fixed by shimming with a business card. Maintenance visits are scheduled for every 10000 miles. Gas mileage is better on the highway (51 mpg) than the city (49 mpg).
The 2003 Prius has had more problems. Issues were with "highway wandering" -- it feels like the car wants to migrate around the road -- and shaking of the steering wheel at low speeds. Cause: the entire power steering rack needed to be replaced. There's also the gas engine failure called the "Big Hand" that's fixed with a similar car reboot, but it's caused by the Accelerator Pedal Assembly needing to be replaced. Many people report that they've had both of these problems. Maintenance is more frequent at 7,500 miles. Gas mileage is better in the city (51 mpg) than the highway (49 mpg).
I don't know anyone who drives a Honda Insight. Supposedly they still make ~1500 of them a year, but rumor has it that Honda is going to be dropping them.
Near-term and Farther-out Models:
The Prius has been out longer than the HCH, and is getting a technological refresh in 2004. The 2003 Prius and the HCH are both 4-seater compacts, but the 2004 Prius will be a mid-size, with better mileage (59 city, 51 highway) and better acceleration (0-60 in 10 instead of 12). There is currently a waiting list for them.
Cars/Trucks/SUVs due to be released as hybrids in 2004:
Honda Accord,
Honda CR-V,
Ford Escape
2004 or 2005:
Chevy Silverado
Saturn Vue
GMC Suburban
Here's an in-depth look at Hybrid technology from the Union of Concerned Scientists (Google HTML translation here).
Here's the best description of what it's like to drive one.
There is a federal tax deduction of $2000 for buying a new hybrid. Several states also offer their own tax deductions or credits -- check here to look them up. Some states (but not all) also let you drive them in their high occupancy lanes, even though you may only have one driver in it.
Oh, by the way -- I know that the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrids are
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
I would disagree. A hybrid car can save money in some other ways too:
They certainly do if they make sufficient profit on SUVs. Perhaps they make 10,001$ profit on SUVs. Of course, I am just parotting what the salesperson said. It could be just a sales tactic to make us believe we were getting a really good deal. Of course, that doesn't figure because my girlfriend was deadset on a hybrid anyway: the sale was already made when we learned this.
Who knows. Perhaps Honda wanted to bite those costs to jumpstart the market for Civic Hybrids before going into really high-volume production. The car is still kind of new (even though they've been popular in Nihon for years). Maybe they are further willing to eat those costs to get 100,000 people to test the technology to help bring it to maturation.
Also, do not forget that Honda makes a solid profit on the millions of other cars they sell every year. 100,000 compared to their yearly sales is almost insignificant.
You also have to consider that a loss of 1,000,000,000$ over a certain number of years isn't that big of a deal for a company like Honda, especially if their long-term goals are served by the loss. It's just like any other business expense.
Join Tor today!
About a year ago, an officemate of mine bought the Toyota Prius. He loves it and enjoys evangelizing about hybrid vehicles. After riding in his Prius, my wife and I decided to trade in her Toyota 4Runner for a hybrid. We did some reading on the net and test drove the 2003 Honda Civic hybrid. We bought it the same day.
It's remarkable how like a regular car the hybrid is. I was for some reason expecting the handling to be balky and the acceleration poor. Instead, I find that it handles very well and the pickup is quite impressive. The low-end torque from the electric motor is surprising; the first time I backed it out of our driveway I spun gravel all over the place! I didn't anticipate that I would enjoy driving the hybrid, but have been quite pleasantly surprised. It does not feel like the "granny car" I was expecting.
By putting the Civic in "Economy" mode, you allow it to shut the engine completely off whenever the car is at a dead stop. Lacking a separate starter motor, the restart when you let off the brake is virtually instantaneous. It feels unsettling to me to have the engine shut off like that, though, and in the summer, it's a drag because it turns the A/C off as well. For these reasons, I generally leave "Economy" mode off.
The milage is great; even with my lead foot, the A/C on, and the "Economy" setting turned off, I get about 43MPG. With "Economy" turned on and the A/C off, it gets more like 50MPG. Because of the way the hybrid engine works, you actually get slightly better milage in the city than you do on the interstate.
My only complaints - and they're pretty minor - are the trunk space and the styling. The trunk isn't tiny, but it isn't as large as I'd like on a family-type car. When we put the baby stroller in the trunk, there's scarcely room for anything else. As far as the styling, it's purely a matter of taste - my wife likes the look of the Civic. It's not sporty enough to suit me.
In all, we're extremely happy with our purchase. I'm looking forward to replacing my car with a fuel cell model a few years down the road.
FYI, changing your oil every 5000 is about the interval recommended for cars nowadays, hybrid or not. The only ones pushing you to change your oil every 3000 miles are the oil change shops.
>>it's safe, it seats six, and has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags.
Chop 'em up? Why, I never would have thought of that!
You know, it's just that sort of practical use-it-every-day knowledge that keeps me coming back here to Slashdot! Thanks, guys!
I think you missed a key point - he's not talking about mileage, he's talking about a REALTIME miles-per-gallon display. That is the instantaneous mpg your vehicle is traveling at a moment in time. I have a 2000 Jetta with every option, and unless he added it afterwards, your brother does NOT have this option. :)
Maybe you have every option for the model you seleced, but I can assure you that the top-end (US models, at least) VW Jettas have had both instantaneous and average MPG displays since 1998 at least (my 1998 Jetta had it, as did my 2000, and so does my new 2003 Jetta GLX).
I can't recall the acronyms for the older sub-models, but in the case of 2003 Jettas, you can't get the "dash computer" (which includes the MPG displays among other cool features, such as miles remaining in tank, trip time, etc.) unless you get the GLX model, which really has no options (I think you can pay for 17" rims vs. the standard 16", but that's not really an option, more of a dealer-provided aftermarket thing, I believe). You get V6, leather, sunroof, power everything with memory, monsoon stereo, automatic climate control, trip-tronic automatic transmission, alloy rims, etc. with the GLX whether you like it or not, and several of those features are unavailable on lower-end Jettas.
To bring this a little bit back OT, I'm surprised that the mileage isn't better than the 30-50 the opsted noted. I get 29-31MPG avg in the city with my V6 Jetta (and I am an acelleration-addict), and almost 40MPG on highway trips. I thought the hybrids were much better.
everything in moderation
Basically, the main thing that the hybrid does for you is it lets the car re-capture the energy wasted in breaking, and apply that to taking off again. Which is why the Honda gets better milage in city than highway (most cars do better on highway milage).
A great little car. I bought mine used for $10K with 30K miles on it, and just sprung for the extended warranty. I love it. I was driving a 2000 4-Runner, which I have to keep for towing and transporting cargo - this was costing me $40 a week on gas. I drive a short commute daily, lots of stop and go, and on the weekends some 30-50 mile trips to friends and family.
Now, the cost of the tank fillup is $15 max, and that gets me 600 miles. In town and highway, I usually average about 55-61mpg, your mileage will vary depends how much of a hurry you are in. I enjoy driving the Insight since its like a game, of power - charging the batteries while coming to a stop, driving off without using the battery assist, its very enjoyable for me.
Pros:
SUPER GEEK factor, I enjoy telling people about the car, and since hydrogen fuel-cell cars are years away from being affordable, I think its a good stop to take. Love the tech factor.
Interior nicely laid out, nicer than the Prius for sure, havent seen the new one yet, but to me it looks like a 4 seater Honda Insight.
CONS:
Road noise is higher due to the low-rolling tires, but its not bad. SUVs have to deal with wind noise, and there's almost 0 of that for this car, so its a trade off.
A 2-seater, so no children in front of the airbag, which you cannot turn off. Passengers = 1.
WIND- sometimes on those really blustery days you can feel a little wind on the road, on some pavement the car can be a little "squirrely", but its minimal.
Tires - not meant to be used at the Indy 500, its not a car meant for tight turns. They have to have high air pressure in them (I run with 44psi) and they're cheap, $70 a tire when you need them replaced.
_______________________________________________
I have found that the storage space below deck to be adequate (about the size of two grocery bags full) but I usually put stuff on the back deck too, if they dont move around much.
Overall, its a great feeling to drive 600 miles and fill up ONCE A MONTH. The guy at the local gas station gets a kick out of when he sees me pull up. The Insights have A/C and all the usual power windows and such, I did replace the poor factory stereo and speakers and that did wonders. Snow is not great for the Insight 1) it sits low and can plow snow in about 4-5inches of snow, and 2) handling is not great. Change the tires and lose the great mileage. I have a 5 speed and it gets better mileage than the CVT, but its all your preference.
For more information, check out www.insightcentral.net - a great resource for those debating to buy or not. Overall, my best purchase in a long time. New they're $19K or so, so it might not give you the savings you want over time, but check for Insights on the internet on used car dealers and find a good deal for someone who traded it in for a 4 door and you're set.
www.sharkdefense.com
> I think hybrids are great for environment and a cool techno gadget, but hopes of saving on gas - forget about it.
Going to the junk yard, and bringing back a dead vehicle from parts will cost the environment much less over the life of the vehicle, than manufacturing a new car, and through trickle down - parking, or pushing another car into the land fill. (assuming you keep it tuned up and maintained.)
now as far as the air in your city, since the cars are manufactured in other countrys, some of that environmental impact of the hybrid only kills the rain forrests, not the local air...
You need the Hydrogen BOMB powered Jeep Orion. :-D
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
We have a 2003 Prius and love it. I've dreamed for decades of a car that respected the law of conservation of energy. Now I am driving one.
My wife drives it 66 miles each way to work through the mountains and gets 48 mpg. I drive more gently and usually get 52-55 mpg. Once warmed up (about 5 minutes), it gets 55 mpg through city streets with lots of stop signs and stop lights. On the highway, we got 48 mpg round trip from California to Indiana with mountain stops at Whitney Portals, North Lake (above Bishop), and the upper Rockies. The air conditioning has a barely noticeable 1 or 2 mpg effect.
I'm not a power person, but it sure has all that is necessary to zip up any mountain grade. We live in the Sierras and do lots of hiking.
The original tires were crummy and we got new ones at 10,000 miles.
Since most of the braking is done by energy regeneration, the standard brake system should last much longer. The big question that no one knows the answer to is when the big battery will need replacement and at what cost.
It cost us $23,000 US with $2000 back from the San Joaquin Valley smog authority and a significant break on Federal tax. We lust to get another, but my Honda Civic Wagon only has 290,000 miles on it so we'll have to wait until I retire it at 400,000 miles.
The 2004 Prius is even better!
I have been driving my Toyota Prius
... it rocks.
... High Milage ... it's great !
:) :)
(CA-Plate "low*smog") for 2.5 years now.
-- I estimated it would save me thousands per year in the cost of gas in comparision to a Jeep Grand Cherokee
-- I *does* fit a family of 4 easily. I do this all the time.
-- It has plenty of room.
My wife got in the car at the dealer, determined it was "roomy", to her, and converted from a "Are you kidding" to "Let's buy it !" , on the spot.
-- You never "plug it in" to anyting.
All you do is fill it with the cheapest un-leaded gas you can find.
-- I have driven it hundreds of miles to LA, Yosimite, the Sierras
-- There is a 2-k Federal Tax break (still effective ?) if you buy this car.
-- Low Smog
-- Of course,
simple physics says smaller cars bring less momentum into any hypothetical collision than larger cars do.
-- So what. This is *not* a small car. It is a mid-sized sedan (grin).
-- Enjoy your new Toyota Prius !
OK, so you say it got expensive to put 38 gallons of gas in your horribly huge vehicle (my mid-size sedan only has a 15 gallon tank)... Why were you putting that much gas in? If it's so expensive, why not change your habits and drive less? Why not buy a different vehicle?
His whole point was that raising the gas price doesn't change people's habits, and you just confirmed that. You said you spent your money on gas instead of Dew, that isn't changing your driving habits (but it might mean you'll lose a little weight from the decreased sugar intake).
More to the point of your post, though, is that yes, some vehicles (trucks) need a big engine to haul crap around... but only a very small percentage of the population actually needs one of those vehicles. My grandpa drove a mid-size sedan when he was raising his 6 kids, so you can't use the "I need it to ferry around my kids" excuse. With a 38 gallon gas tank, I'm assuming you have a truck... what do you use that large of a truck for? Would an S-10 or Ranger not work to haul stuff? Or is it an SUV that usually has one person and no cargo except groceries? If you actually use your overly large vehicle, how often do you use it for its purpose? If only once a month, maybe you can get a smaller car for the daily use and not spend much more money overall since you'll have decreased gas costs (a small used car can cost $1000, which you'll save in two years of gas costs). If you absolutely use that beast everyday for work, you can have your company pay for it or deduct it as a business expense.
The thing is, nothing at all is as cheap as gas. A gallon costs $2 in L.A. A gallon of water costs almost that much. A gallon of milk is more, so is a gallon of gatorade, mountain dew, etc. In Europe gas costs $5/gallon. Do you see many SUVs and trucks over there? No. Do they have a different type of person over there with fewer needs for large vehicles? No. They have the same needs as you do, but they just don't buy them.
IANAL, but I play one on
"In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service."
Factor in the effect of T.W.A.T on oil prices over the next decade as big oil 'investment' goes up in smoke - the savings look far sweeter.
Also factor in the fact hat whatever % of your drive time is dead slow or sat still if you city drive - which still burns gas as you chug at the lights - mileage is not the best starting point.
And here is what people dont get - ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!
You cant put a price on our childrens future.
This perpetual motion machine Lisa made is a joke, it just keeps getting faster and faster. - Homer
Keep that in mind next time that you're shopping for hybrids. They'll save you a buttload of money with respect to a big ol' SUV, but it takes a long time to catch up to a less expensive compact.
By the way, I love driving my car... and it doesn't look goofy. :)
There are two types of people: those prepared for the zombie apocalypse and those who will be eaten.
Me, I have to scope my vehicle for the worst case scenario (seven passengers and a trailer) and then live with the surplus capacity the rest of the time.
Wow, I know what you mean. I'm still making payments on the personal jet. Gotta visit Europe sometimes, after all.
Seriously, you're over 25, right? Price out rentals, and see how it adds up against the purchase price and gas prices of the SUV. Try out hotwire.com, and/or sign up with the various rental agencies to get their cheapest online prices. If your vacation every year is to spend a month on the road with you, the spouse, and your 5 kids, what you're saying could make sense.
If you usually *fly* somewhere for your vacations, though, it doesn't make sense. If you only need the trailer twice a year, to schlep your kid's stuff to college and back, it doesn't make sense.
I obviously don't know your personal situation... but there are actually surprisingly few people out there for whom an SUV is really logical. But how many people really have the self-awareness to just skip the rationalizations and say, "it is worth $xxxxx, angry stares from the tree-huggers, and a greater risk of killing someone to me to avoid driving a station wagon or minivan, and/or to feel bigger than anyone else on the road."
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
There is no such issue. The issue is when the car (Crown Victoria or other Panther platform vehicles) get rear ended, or rear ended from an oblique angle or off center position, since the gas tank is in the rear, it can spill fuel and catch fire.
This really isn't an issue ethier, as it will withstand a 70 mph direct rear end impact from a 5000lb vehicle and not spill any fuel. Fires ocurr when the speed of the vehicle are over 80 MPH.
Let's see anyone in a Honda survive that impact.
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
Personally, I'll stick with my Crown Victoria for now. It [...] has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags.
by Anonymous Canard (594978) on Friday September 12, @04:23PM (#6946844)
Funny you should mention the Crown Victoria, since it is one of two commercially available alternative fuel vehicles. [...] As alternative fuel vehicles go, these are pretty easy to use -- they handle like gasoline engines, are easy to refill (in California) at many PG&E stations in the area, at the cost of about half your trunk space
So you're saying if I get a natural gas Crown Vic, I can only fit one dead hooker in the trunk without chopping up? When will they make an alternative fuel vehicle with no compromises?
That's one of the things that has bugged me about the hype over hybrids. I remember nearly 20 years ago the Honda CRX HF was rated for 54MPG on the sticker. After 20 years of progress, we've achieved a slightly larger car, for 3 times the cost, which has about the same mileage.
Thank you. Drive through.
Pet Peeve # i +1? Sorry, your peeves are irrational.
While I'm not shopping for a car right now, I figure the car I have now (a 1986 VW Jetta) is the last gas-engined car I will ever own. When I replace it I will probably buy a diesel, but will want to check out available hybrids. I really want them to work, but feel they're not quite there yet.
I have no complaints about gas mileage, with my car returning about 6 l/100km highway, 10 city. My car is licensed and insured as a pleasure vehicle, and I drive it to work one day each week to remind myself why I ride the bus the other 4 days. :-)
I've test-driven an Insight, and have ridden in several Priuses. A taxi company here runs a fleet of them, and a colleague drives one. He jokes that you need a laptop and a USB cable to hotwire his car. The first time I rode in it I thought it was an Echo, and marvelled at how quietly it idled. Then I saw the display on the dash and knew better...
...laura
That's the only conclusion I can come to after reading this thread. America is a country of scaredy cats.
No wonder the Iraqi's are kicking your arses now that it's down to the nitty gritty.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
My wife and I just went through the process of buying a hybrid, and settled on the 2003 Civic. Let me point out that I've owned both Hondas and Toyotas in the past and been very satisfied with both brands. There were a number of factors that influenced the decision, but the biggest was that the back seat is a bit bigger in the Civic which is nice when you need to haul your friends around. Some more observations on both:
The Prius is a hybrid from the ground up, the Civic is a Civic from the ground up. Toyota wants you and everyone else to know that you're driving a hybrid. If you're looking for "neato" appeal, go for the Prius. You get to watch a little cartoon of the drivetrain every time you accelerate. As for the Civic, you'd never know it was a hybrid if they took the "charge/assist" indicator off the instrument cluster. You'd just think it tended to stall at lights a lot.
The design philosophy behind the hybrid drive is dramatically different in the two cars. Toyota chose a larger motor and smaller engine than Honda. The Civic motor is integrated into the flywheel and thus the motor assist is only available with the engine running. The Prius motor is able to run independantly of the engine, allowing you to run entirely on electric power. I really liked the idea of being able to creep on electric power, but not enough to choose the Prius over the Civic.
You can get a standard transmission in the Civic. This was unavailable in the 2003 Prius, not sure about the 2004. I really like standards, so this was a point in favor of the Civic. The only thing to watch out for is that since the motor is hanging off the back of the engine, the clutch has to be engaged for the regenerative braking to work. This took some driving style changes for me as I'm used to downshifting as I stop and spend a lot of time with the clutch disengaged. I still maintain that this is a good idea because if I have to get out of a nasty situation I like to find myself in the right gear so I still have some positive control (i.e. acceleration). Unfortunately (in this case) renerative braking is a big part of the hybrid concept so I've resigned myself to staying in a high gear longer than I normally would. No biggie.
The handling on the Civic is a whole lot nicer than I expected. There's surprisingly little body roll when cornering. Still, I wouldn't exactly consider it a performance car. I can't comment on the handling of the Prius, as when we went to the dealership to test drive one the response was "We don't have one." Click. And that was that. As I said above, I've owned Toyotas and dealt with the dealerships before, and this was definitely not a typical experience.
So overall, I'm very happy with the Civic Hybrid. We didn't buy it for the mileage, though 45 MPG on my urban commute to work is nice. We didn't buy it for the geek factor, though that's nice too. We bought a hybrid to show (even though our purchase is just a drop in the bucket) that there's a market for newer, more environmentally sound technologies. Everyone will say that you can get the same mileage from a Geo Metro or a Volkswagen TDI, and for the most part they're right. But these are hardly revolutionary, and if we keep going down that road eventually the development will become asymptotic. Moore's law simply doesn't apply to internal combustion. Of course hybrid isn't a panacaea, but at least it gives the manufacturers some experience in electric drive and it keeps the gears of innovation turning.
I know someone who got a Civic Hybrid, and I have done a fair bit of research into getting a hybrid myself. First off I admit that the main reason I wanted to get a hybrid was for the geek factor and to support the development of this cool technology. These aren't the most economical - normal Honda Civic and the Toyota Echo are less expensive overall. They also aren't the only environmentally friendly things out there. Many cars have emissions that are plenty good enough. Plus I'm not too concerned about depleting our use of oil, as it could be replaced with biodesiel very easily, and if oil became scarce it would be economical to do so. They are not the most versatile vehicles either. However, they are good at all of these things. (oh, and the chick dig em :)
Now onto my experiences. At the time I was looking I had some complaints about the Prius. First the controls were horrible. You thought talking on a cell phone was bad, try using a tivo-like all-in-one display for he radio, AC battery monitoring etc. The controls on the Honda Civic were damn near reaching perfection in design. Simple and effective. Then again I am thinking of getting my masters in UI design so maybe I'm more picky about theses things than others. Also the braking felt a little weird, and the car was ugly in my opinion. However, you should look at the new 2004 Prius. I don't know if the controls or braking have improved, but the appearance has changed (I like it), and they moved the battery (both civic and prius currently have it in the rear seat back), so you can fold the rear seat forward.
Driving around the city was great in both of these cars. They had more pickup than some of the normal cars I test drove. They do not have much acceleration at highway speeds though, which means you need to think farther ahead and try and not slow down if you don't need to. I imagine driving in city highway traffic would suck. The only killer for these vehicles are long hills. There is one hill coming into Albuquerque that I'd have to drive often. I've been told that you end up completely draining the battery on this hill, and then left with only the motor you slow down to about 45mph by the time you reach the top. Luckily, there is a truck lane on the hill, so you aren't obstructing traffic.
While all of the battery and electric motor technology for both of these cars have very good warrantees (8-10 years) the main area of concern that I had was with the CVT. We don't know how well these are going to hold up, and as far as I could tell they were not covered by the warrantee.
In my case, I decided to go with something less expensive, with a proven high reliability, so that I could get it paid off quickly and then not worry about it when I decided to go back to grad school. I think that is basically what if comes down to - are you willing to put up with the small annoyance that you cant always go as fast as you'd like and take the small risk that the car might not last as long as you want? If so I think a hybrid could be a great car for you. Under different circumstances I could easily see myself getting a hybrid.
PS: some people have mentioned the VW Jetta Turbo Diesel. I really, really liked this car. The only reason I didn't buy it was because a couple groups (including Consumer Reports) have found it to have serious reliability problems. Last time I checked it was in a race with the Ford Focus for being the least reliable sedan on the market. Shame.
My 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis had that. It was a sticker on the dash that said "Bad."
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
That would help, but here's another: make it so you can register and insure a big vehicle and a cheap commuter car "as one". You'd only get one set of plates and you could only drive one at a time (move plates). This would eliminate one of the big objections "I'd have to pay insurance on another vehicle." that keeps people commuting in their giant trucks-for-taking-the-family-vacationing.
I use dio-diesel in my old VW rabbit pickup and get over 60 miles per dollar. For a $600 investment in a SVO kit, the fuel becomes free ... I am saving up.
best info good kit good kit best kit best book
I own a 5-speed Civic Hybrid and I don't find it noisy or jerky at all. As for engine/motor balance, that's all handled by the IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) computer and is a function of the engine RPM and accelerator input. It's no different than the CVT in that respect. What is different is that I have a bit more control of where I am on the torque and horsepower curves. Also, admittedly, there's a certain play aspect to it. You're right about the mileage, at least in the city, but on the highway the manual is better. The CVT gets 48/47 and the manual gets 46/51. Finally, the manual is 61 pounds lighter and $1000 cheaper than the CVT.
I've been wondering for awhile about how much it takes to produce a car, ever since I saw photos of a LNG bus that melted when the LNG tank blew. Here's a reasonable shot at overestimating the resources required:
Assume a 2000lb car (sorry, I use metric at work but everything I found on the web was in stupid units, so this post will be as well)
Assume it's 2000lbs of aluminum, made from ore and not recycled. I'm doing this because aluminum is VERY energy intensive to produce.
Each pound of aluminum takes the equivalent of 1.5 gallons of gas to make it (I found a web page that said that throwing away a 0.5oz aluminum can was equivalent to wasting 6 fluid ozs of gasoline).
So, it would take about 3000 gallons of gas to produce a car under the worst possible assumptions. Reasonable mileage on a used car will be 30mpg, whereas the prius supposedly gets about 50. After 60000 miles in the used car, you've lost the balance of resources, again, under the worst possible assumptions.
If you more correctly assume that the aluminum will be (mostly) recycled, the resource price drops by a factor of 20. Of course, my assumtions that using aluminum as a stand-in for everything else that goes into a car would probably fail then too.
I would love to see a better estimate of the energy resources required to make a car, so feel free to criticize (this is slashdot, so I'm sure you will)
I own a 2002 Prius and the biggest difference between it and the Civic Hybrid lies in its planetary gearing system (which the Civic lacks). In the Prius, the on-board computer can decide what combination of gasoline engine, electric motor, and electric generator (they're separate) to connect to the drivetrain, depending on conditions. In the Civic, the gasoline engine is permanently connected to the drivetrain, so it's always turning, even if it's not being used. There are two main consequences of this difference:
- The planetary gearing system seems to add about 1000 pounds to the vehicle curb weight.
- The Prius can take the gasoline engine off the drivetrain any time it needs to.
A friend who owns the Civic Hybrid complained that in city driving, the gasoline engine will turn off it you stop at a light, but if you advance even a few feet, it will turn the engine on again and not turn it off until the vehicle has gone up to about 10mph and then back to zero.My Prius can use the electric motor alone at any speed, as long as the load is low enough, and the only "unnecessary" use of the gasoline engine is when the A/C is running (this is fixed in the 2004 model) or if the engine hasn't yet gotten to optimum running temperature.
Of course, YMMV :-)
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
I've always wondered how the batteries in these modern hybrids hold up in the winter time. Any experiences?
(More than once I've found myself leaving work late at night in -40 degree temperatures, and have been grateful each time that my Saturn [sans block heater] has started flawlessly.)
I think what people fail to grasp is that the hybrid system exists primarily for the purpose of recovering the energy of motion of the car and reusing it. Ordinary cars make ZERO use of this energy, except to squander it as heat in the brakes or uselessly compressing air in the cylinders during deceleration.
;-)
This is like pedaling your bike up a hill, then getting off and walking it down the other side. In a hybrid, the energy you spent going up the hill is transfered into the battery on your way back down, and is thus available to let you climb the next hill for free. The only losses (aside from the usual wind speed and friction losses that apply to all cars) are efficiency losses in the recovery system, which are fairly small.
This is why Hybrids like the Prius get BETTER mileage in the city, because they can recover energy from starts and stops, but cannot recover it from wind resistance on the highway.
This kind of system makes so much sense, it is embarrassing that we have spent the last 100 years using twice the fuel we need to do the same job.
And to those who feel that the hybrids are some kind of crippled yuppie guilt machine, I say wake up.
The 2004 Prius is a mid-size, 5 passenger car with all of the amenities of many luxury cars (wireless hands-free entry, voice operated heater/radio/navigation system, 9 speaker JBL stereo, ABS, stability control, side curtain airbags, wireless hands-free cellphone interface for bluetooth enabled cellphones, etc.) and is a pleasing, sporty looking 5-door hatchback. It goes zero to 60 in 10 seconds (about the same as a 4 door Camry). With all this, it gets 60 MPG in the city and 55 on the highway. It sells for between $20-25K depending on options.
I say cars like this are possibly the best cars ever built, from the standpoint of value, usability, efficiency and fun.
The only thing they don't do is cater to the bizarre idea (long promoted by the auto industry and their lap dogs at the car magazines) that everyone should want their daily transportation to perform like a race car. But that is another rant
Yes it has four sides, a top and a bottom. There are various small planes about the hood and windshield, but they're rather standard too.
Toyota is running print ads in select publications (saw one in Technology Review) boasting about their latest generation of hybrid drive. The specifically mention the acceleration performance it can offer in conjunction with a v6, which sounds like they are targeting it at much larger platforms than your average Prius, or even a Camry.
The ad also strongly implies that they will be selling the tech in cars beyond the prius within the next year.
Companies are also taking advantage of the recently establised standards for higher voltage electrics to do hybrid-like things. They are replacing the flywheel, starter & alternator with a motor-generator and a larger battery.
This allows them to capture braking energy in the battery, and use it to enhance acceleration, and to kill the engine at stoplights and quick-start it (like the current hybrids)
Indeed. Driving style can make a HUGE impact on fuel economy. I've got a 2001 Insight with the CVT transmission. If I drive like Joe Sixpack in his '84 Mustang (crushing the gas on every takeoff and waiting 'til the last second to brake), I get around 45mpg. On the other hand, I've had trips where I've averaged over 90mpg. The major keys to high gas mileage on my Insight are:
1. Try to maintain a constant speed.
2. Accelerate evenly when taking off, using a moderate amount of electric motor assist.
3. Try to maintain a steady cruising speed between 35 and 45mph. The mpg bar will show you know when you've found the "sweet spot".
4. Gas mileage is noticeably higher in warmer weather.
5. Maintain large following distances, avoid hard braking, and roll through stops whenever possible. If you start braking early enough for that stop light, it could turn green while you're at 12mph instead of sitting at a dead stop.
6. Use the hardest, lowest rolling resistance tires you feel comfortable with (the stock Bridgestone Potenzas are good for me). Keep them properly inflated; underinflation decreases fuel economy.
7. Above about 30mph, you get better mpg with the windows up and air conditioner/vent in "economy" than with the windows down. Never use "auto" mode, since it disables the Insight's auto-stop feature.
Contrary to popular opinion, using a higher-grade gasoline has shown no noticeable affect on fuel economy.
My lifetime mpg over ~22,800 miles is 59.7mpg, including a trip from Louisville, KY to Seattle, WA and back by way of Montana. Through Snoqualmie and Lookout Pass. In January. With stock tires & no chains. As long as you don't try to plow through snow deeper than about 5-6", you should be fine through the winter.
Final note: don't forget to check with your accountant for a possible tax break (both state and federal) on your "green" vehicle. Being able to write off a couple thousand in taxes can make that $20,000 Insight a hell of a lot more appealing.
I bought a Toyota Prius hybrid last year. I was the 4th person to buy one in this company of 120 people, so had the benefit of their experiences to guide me. There are now 5 of us with a Prius. Four of them are used for 90 mile commutes per day while mine is used primarily for regular 1000 mile round trips. I also use mine for 12 miles of surface street driving per day to/from work.
All five have proven to be flawless in operation. The commute group averages between 45 and 55 mpg on their daily commutes. When they are in very heavy traffic, they get considerably better mileage. I get an average of 40 mpg in my surface street travels. On my long (7 hours each way) trips from the Los Angeles South Bay area, I get 55 mpg if I drive 75 mph and I get 45-50 mpg if I drive 90 mph. That is with the air conditioner running, by the way. I had one stretch, on cruise control with no slowing or accelerating, on level ground, 75 mph, no a/c, where I got an average of 85 mpg for over 30 min! I have absolutely no trouble keeping up with traffic, even on long, steep climbs.
One thing I can pass on is perhaps more telling than anything. My wife drove her new BMW 330CI convertible over here, took the Prius back home, then refused to give up the Prius. I had to drive the BMW home and bring the Prius back myself. She is now going to buy a new Prius when they come out next month since she misses this one so much.
Pat
Right, because it's easier and safer to take your kids to the doctor on a ten speed than in a car. Nice thinking there.
Yes, with legislation demanding that a certain (high) percentage of models sold be more fuel-efficient and have cleaner emissions. This has been going on already, and is continuing to go on, and it is improving mileage and decreasing emissions. So the problem is being solved, through legislation as you suggest, but at the automaker end. It's not necessary to do it by raising gas prices.
I'm a student. I am currently living on grants and student loans during the school year, and working summers. As such, I don't get any earned income tax credit, because I don't make enough money during the year. (Federal grants are not taxable income.) So I'm just fucked by this? Thanks for thinking of me.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The reasoning goes that, if you can live off 75% of your wages, you are saving 25%. You then have 25% disposable income. Now if you save $5K today (in cost, not in cash), but it raises your monthly cost of living, that's bad. You have less disposable income, and now have to earn more money.
If you can take your money and pay off a loan today, and that lowers your monthly cost of living you should do it. Yes there is a limit to this. Taking a 1 year loan, and spreading it out over 20 years is financially stupid. However, given the option where it is a wash long term on the money, you always want to lower your monthly payments. There should be a strong bias towards lowering your monthly living expenses. The moment you aren't cash flow positive on monthly expenses, you start to run thru your credit rating, which will eventually lead you to bankrupty. That should be avoided at all costs.
Kirby
Also, when the gasoline engine is running, it charges a bigger battery, so that when you're below 25 mph, you aren't running on gas.
is often an argument for not getting one, when calculated at list price. However, all you need to get is a $2000 tax credit (doable in many states, and will be doable in the entire U.S. if negotiations go right on the energy bill) or negotiate the price down $2000 (I did) to have the Honda Civic Hybrid cost the same as the Honda Civic EX. Therefore, this argument is only valid if you're actually going to get something that's around $4000 cheaper (Honda Civic DX with AM radio?)...
Often, though, after people disqualify a hybrid with the argument using list price, they go out and buy a mid-size Accord ($25,000, or $3K more) or an SUV ($35,000, or $15K more!) out of vanity for "how it makes them look."
If you'd like an argument for how something makes one look, compare the price of an SUV (~5 year depreciating asset) versus, say, a hybrid and plastic surgery. They're about the same cost, and I think one would make out better with the latter...
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
plus it's socially responsible, and high ground level ozone levels leads to more asthma hospitalizations.
Not that anyone seems to give a rat's ass about the air we breathe, all the arguments here are about horsepower and saving money.
Then you should buy an American hybrid. American cars break all the time. ;)
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
After dinner tonight, inspired by this story, I went back up to my local Honda dealership and test drove a 2003 Civic Hybrid with a manual transmission. My girlfriend has the CVT, I want the stick-shift. :-)
During the test drive, I mentioned the idea to the saleswoman that I disliked the rims and would also want to replace the tires with Falkens as mentioned in my post.
According to her, this isn't a good idea.
The rims are designed to keep drag down while still being somewhat interesting to look at. They have no spokes and very few distortions that would cause unnecessary wind resistence. Furthermore, one of the reasons the diameter of the rims on hybrids are so low, is because they have less rotational inertia. The greater the dimeter, the more weight you have father from the axis which requires more power to get turning.
As for the tires, they are specially chosen as well. Many other people have mentioned in various threads (including an Ars Technical article) that the Honda Insight has really hard tires with high PSI that do not have a great deal of grip. The situation with the Civic Hybrid is not unlike this. While the tires are fit the norm more closely, they are a little harder than most. Replacing them with softer tires like Falkens (that have different drag characteristics because of their uni-directional treads) will impact fuel economy significantly.
To summarize, the saleswoman mentioned something that should be obvious to most Slashdot geeks: the hybrids are engineered with everything in mind. It's all "hand-in-hand". Screw something up, and the impact might be greater than you'd think.
I realized previously that replacing the rims or tires would change the dynamics, but now I am wondering if the potential draw-backs are worth it.
So, do not merely take my advice and go replacing the tires on your shiny new hybrid. Check with the Honda dealership. They aren't engineers, but they might have cheat sheets that can tell them (and you) what will get fucked up when you start fiddling with things.
Join Tor today!
Driving non-agressively in my 1997 2.2L standard .34 CD (not spectacular at all).
2-door Dodge Neon I get 41 highway and 33 city -- and the car was very cheap to buy, there are no modifications and the car has 132hp and a
In the end, the Prius, for example, can only do at most 10% better then that so it does not justify twice the cost. I bet if I made my Neon as aerodynamic as the Prius (.26 CD) and put on the same tires (less rolling resistance) I could get near the same gas mileage as the Prius.
Gas mileage is also *heavily* dependant on driving style due to the laws of conservation of energy -- the top things overall that I found increase it are:
1) Standard transmission -- almost all cars with a
standard get better gas mileage then an
automatic.
2) Drive 55 -- Going from 75mph on the highways to
55 increased gas mileage by 26%!
3) Anticipate lights (let the car roll to slow
down when you see a red light ahead of time
rather then breaking at the last minute) saves
a lot, too.
4) Coast down hills
5) Accelerate slowly
If you follow these rules and buy a compact car you'll get near the hybrid's gas mileage with no fancy technology.
Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you wouldn't see any difference.
Do they perform well in the city? Other than getting used to not hearing the engine run while driving in slow traffic, you won't notice a difference.
How about on long road trips?No difference from any other car. The numbers on the car are roughly 115 horsepower for 2765 pounds empty weight
FYI, the location-specific advantage deals with how certain states classify hybrids with respect to high occupancy vehicle (HOV) restrictions. My current state, Virginia, allows me to pay a little extra for my registration and with "clean special fuel" plates run HOV with only the driver in the car. I understand California does something similar.
If you want a geek car, you want the Mazda RX-8.
Slate posted an article explaining why it's the geekiest car on the road a month or so ago, so I won't re-has the articles.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087172/
Of course, if all you want is a slug car then go all out with your bad self and those hybrids. Hybrids are for suburban mommies, not geeks.
Put a poster up of the cutaway for a rotary engine - then watch your workmates come talk engineering with you.
Generally speaking, large cars make 'penises' louder.
Marxist evolution is just N generations away!
Sure, buy an electric car and become part of the problem.
I got a 2000-model Honda Insight in May of 2001. It was on sale, so I got it, along with a very-extended warranty, an air conditioner, and that early AIWA MP3-capable CD player, for a total of about $19k - $20k after the financing dust settled.
Do I really get 70mpg? Not in general.
I really do get >50. Consistently.
I've driven something like 24,000 miles in this car. I live in Minnesota, which has awful weather; I run the AC all the time in the summer, and our winters are famous. The car's "auto-stop" feature doesn't work below about 40 degrees F, so the car just idles at stop lights in winter.
Would I get another? Hell yeah.
I went from Saint Paul to Seattle and back, and commuted while I was there, for a week. The entire trip used about 55 gallons of gas; that's just over five tanks. So, we filled up five times, and got home with a half-tank.
Performance: Performance is just fine. Everyone bashes the Insight's punch, because they're driving it like any other car. Doesn't quite work. Second gear in the Insight can be used from about 5mph up through about 60. If you really want to accelerate, stay in a low gear; the gear ratios are incredibly broad. 5th gear works from about 23 to about 113. The pick-up is right there when you really need it - getting out of snow drifts, for instance, or peeling out on a left turn when traffic is bad. Once you're at freeway speeds, it's a little sluggish, but it's still a fine car.
I cannot possibly communicate how wonderful this car is to drive and to park. I regularly get parking spaces in winter because Minnesotan parking lots tend to have half-spaces which are full of snow. The Insight fits; nothing else does. You can parallel-park this car between people while they're kissing, and only nudge them in the shins a little.
It's a nice, maneuverable, little car, and it gets great milage. I have put in about a tank of gas a *month* since I got it.
Yes, I'd get another. And this is the 2000 model; I'm sure the 2004's are nicer.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
While I agree that there are definitely too many poor people with children, the solution is not to make things worse for them. Stupid and/or Immature people have been getting knocked up/knocking people up (takes two to tango though) and then popping out babies for as long as there have been people, presumably. Whether or not they have cars, they'll still be having kids.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Driving habits
I'm currently experimenting with varying driving habits to see which way gets the best gas mileage. I first tried maximizing mileage at expense of speed, so I tried to running all on electric up to 34-36 MPH, then slowly accelerating to the speed limit, but never more than 60 MPH (we have 65 in places). The best I could do was average 54.5 MPG. I then tried rapid, aggressive acceleration to the desired speed, then kicking in the cruise control. This netted me approximately 47 MPG. Note that the first method appears (judging by the "you're number one" signs I got from other drivers) to be more courteous, as folks tend to get testy when they can't accelerate for 50' to the next red light--even when you stay in the right lane. As for power, when I'm in the pole position, I usually leave all the other gaspigs in the dust. Despite their eight or ten cylinders, they have a lot of mass to move.
Average speed
The fewer stops and accelerations you have, the better your gas mileage. The first 5-10 minutes of any trip nets you crappy MPG, as everything needs to heat up before it starts working efficiently. The electric motor doesn't seem to like the cold, so it lets the gas engine do most/all the work. That would be fine, except the gas engine also doesn't like the cold. This brings us to...
Temperature
When the Prius is cold, it is not happy and gets poor(er) gas mileage. Presumably driving the Prius during the Winter months in an area with a propensity to snow would cause poor(er) gas mileage.
Traffic
The heavier the traffic, the slower you go and the more you rely on the battery. At some point, there will not be enough charge in the battery to run the electric motor, so when you take your foot off the brake the gas engine will start. When you come to a dead stop, the gas engine will cut off (this technique also saves gas when one is waiting at a light, railroad crossing, or the takeout line at White Castle (slammers, baby!). The Prius likes relatively unclogged highway best, optimally between 55 and 60 MPH. Much faster than 63 MPH and the average MPG starts dropping.
Yeah, right.
You say that this is your first vehicle. Does it mean you don't have a lot of driving experience? If you do have a few thousand miles under your belt, ignore this message. Otherwise...
A simple fact of life is that younger/less experienced drivers are pretty likely to get into accidents, whether by their own fault or by not being experienced enough to spot someone else's error and compensate for it. Either way, as a rule of thumb, you should expect to wreck your first car. I happened to not ever wreck mine, but I think most people I know have.
With that, I would recomend that you do not get a new car, especially not a hybrid. You will be paying a lot to buy it, a lot in insurance (you'll want full coverage on that shiny new baby), etc. Also, you'll feel sad every time someone dings or scratches you parking. Not to mention if, as mentioned above, you wreck it.
I would advise getting an older (and maybe scratched) compact. I had great experience with Corollas which were 10+ years old. If you get something like that, you will pay less to start, less insurance (you can probably get away with liability) and you'll have a car that can be cheaply repaired by anyone. Also, after driving this car for a few years, you'll have some better point of view from which to chose your next vehicle. The state of the art of hybrids will advance also, and you'll be ahead w. some money and experience. You'll still have a chance of getting something like 30+ mpg, w. decent power and speed.
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
And don't forget those biodiesel vehicles. How many miles to the next fast-food place with a deep frier?
Driving in the Yukon this summer in a 92 Suzuki Sidekick. I did 600K on a tank of gas (10 imp. gallon tank.) I put a bit campstove fuel in at the end to make it another 20K to a gas station. Gas is $1/L way up north, the gas stations are few and far (really far) between and sometimes not open on Sunday. (Go get dude, yeah, dude has the key to the pump, oh no dude's gone fishing, oh forget it.)
I was wondering why the mpg in some of the posts seemed low, but that's per US gallon. Much better.<rant> i remember your duelly elected president George w Bush (who I nhumbly support in his war for, I mean against, no wait you are either for or against, wait, no, we are against terrorism and for the war which somehow equates to peace, something like that, I'll have to switch on those informative us tv news channels to get it straight again with those live action hero figures and cards and such, ooh and oh so cool techy-military stuff) announced that the big 3 car companies would have the fuel efficiency technology available in about 4 years. Translation: we won't be havin us any US-made fuel efficient cars while Bush is president.
God bless him for killing all those terrorists (and breaking a few eggs) so we can have cheap gas for our gas guzzling SUVs. </rant> Blame Canada
I only have 3000 miles on my new Civic hybrid, but it looks like 42mpg w air conditioning on full blast, 45 with no AC. It is interesting that city and highway mileage has been almost the same for me.
I could probably get the same mileage, though, by just using an underpowered civic and driving at ridiculously slow acceleration, and turning off my engine at lights.
It's a wonderful toy, but maybe not practical if money is your only concern.
If you live in an urban area, your best bet might be to look into purchasing a diesel and running it on biodiesel fuel. No conversion of the engine is needed and you never have to worry about depleting fossil fuels again. If you want to be creative, check out the Greasel.com website, where they tell you how to convert a diesel engine to run on used vegetable oil. Good luck.
Check it out. The 2004 Prius comes with Bluetooth to connect to mobile phones with Bluetooth. This will come in very handy with my Sony Ericsson T68i. I currently use a Jabra BT200 wireless headset while driving, but BT built into a car sounds way cooler.
Natural gas is almost entirely domestically produced. It costs less than $1.50 a gallon [pge.com] of gasoline equivalent, and it is renewable and clean.
Oil is just as "renewable" as natural gas. They both come from the same hole in the ground.
The natural gas advantage is in not having to refine it. The downside is not having as many products that can be made from it. If you make anythiing (besides a gooey mess) from oil you are going to end up with some gasoline or just vent it off as waste.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
You are confusing natural gas with propane. Natural Gas is just scrubbed methane. Methane is produced from innumerable sources, and is absolutely renewable; while it is often found in the same pockets as oil reserves, there is no reason at all that natural gas has to be obtained by mining; any decaying plant or animal waste will produce ample quantities of methane.
LOL! Now that is the best troll that I have seen in quite some time! I usually do not respond to them, but some people migh fall for the parent comment.
Propane is certainly not a gas that came straight from the ground. It requires more processing than gasoline. It is no more renewable than it's parent source and was created by a fellow who thought gasoline companies were ripping everybody off.
Natural Gas is the stuff that comes from the ground and is non-renewable.
Methane is "renewable" and the EPA also identifies it as a "greenhouse gas" (for those of you who believe in that greenhouse nonsense).
Now, if you have the instructions to a gas grill, see what those instructions have to say about propane, methane and naturel gas. They usually say the three are not interchangable or that modifications must be performed before switching.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
And really it shouldn't. The Octane grade is an anti-knock rating. If your car has a high compression ratio then the manufacturer usually recommends a higher octane gas. It's designed to keep the gas from firing prematurely.