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New PowerBooks, Bluetooth Keyboard and Mouse

no_demons writes "This morning Apple iCEO Steve Jobs gave the keynote at the Apple Expo in Paris. The whole PowerBook line up got an upgrade, with the 15" model now sporting the much rumoured goods (1.25GHz, backlit keyboard, bluetooth, Airport Extreme), available from today. Apple also announced a new wireless keyboard and mouse."

127 of 699 comments (clear)

  1. No longer the latest and greatest... by oscarmv · · Score: 3, Informative

    But at least my 1GHz Ti can boot on OS 9 to play games.

    Sob... sob...

    1. Re:No longer the latest and greatest... by TheCrazyFinn · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depends on MB rev. USB2.0/Firewire 800 MB's don't boot OS 9, Older boards do. CPU speed is irrelevant, as there are 1GHz systems that don't boot OS 9 and 1.25GHz systems that do.

      Apple rolled back the MB rev on G4 desktops when the G5's were announced. The current shipping G4's are actually based on an older motherboard than the systems introduced in Jan 2003. The Jan 2003 models don't boot OS 9.

      --
      "You've got an invalid haircut" -Warren Zevon - Life'll Kill Ya
    2. Re:No longer the latest and greatest... by joel_02 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To think that I can now buy a 15 inch PB for $200 more than the price I paid for my iBook 600....pretty awesome actually. I love when a company can continue to improve a product and actually bring prices down.

    3. Re:No longer the latest and greatest... by Cadre · · Score: 2, Funny
      It's sad when you go back to 9. It's not pretty but SO much faster. Sigh.

      Yea, it was so fast that they had to add the feature where holding down the mouse button paused the operating system.

      --
      All editorial writers ever do is come down from the hill after the battle is over and shoot the wounded.
  2. The iBooks are great... by Sir+Haxalot · · Score: 2, Informative

    My school recently ordered 50(!) of these beauties, wireless network and all. Brilliant.

    --
    I have over 70 freaks, do you?
    1. Re:The iBooks are great... by hmallett · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not the iBooks that are discussed here, it's the PowerBooks.

  3. I always wondered by kurosawdust · · Score: 5, Funny

    Not to slay a slashdot sacred iCow or anything, but isn't it kind of pointless to call Steve Jobs's Apple Expo/Macworld speeches "keynotes" when he gives them every flippin' time? I mean, who else is gonna give the thing? *half-heartedly hopes for Moof the Dogcow*

    1. Re:I always wondered by CutOnThisLine · · Score: 5, Informative

      His name is Clarus The Dogcow. All Clarus says is 'Moof' which would make him a fairly sucky keynote presenter.

      --
      "If you wait too long they'll cater to your ego."
    2. Re:I always wondered by DrEldarion · · Score: 2, Funny

      I mean, who else is gonna give the thing?

      Forrest Gump and Lieutenant Dan?

      -- Dr. Eldarion --

    3. Re:I always wondered by narkotix · · Score: 4, Funny

      they are too busy marketing the new iShrimp

      --
      We played dungeons and dragons for 3 hours.....then i was slain by an elf
    4. Re:I always wondered by rampant+mac · · Score: 2, Funny
      "All Clarus says is 'Moof' which would make him a fairly sucky keynote presenter."

      If the word "cool" didn't exist in the human language, Steve would have a fairly sucky presentation also. :)

      --
      I like big butts and I cannot lie.
    5. Re:I always wondered by TiMac · · Score: 2, Funny
      The WWDC Keynote speech brought "kick-ass" into the lingo. Both Steve and Jon Rubenstein used that to refer to the G5.

      Because it is clearly "beyond cool." :)

      --

    6. Re:I always wondered by MouseR · · Score: 4, Informative

      For those not following, a complete description is available.

    7. Re:I always wondered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      His name is Clarus The Dogcow.

      Her name is Clarus. All dogcows are females. The males of the species would be called dogbulls, but there aren't any because there are already bulldogs and God doesn't like confusing names.

  4. Bah... by larien · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Still only one mouse button...

    On a serious note, I'm thinking about getting a laptop and the Powerbooks are looking like a good bet; Unix core (so I can run apache & Postgresql etc; yes, I know they work on Windows too, just about) with a nice GUI and everything "just works"(TM) rather than having to download beta drivers to get wifi kind of working under linux.

    1. Re:Bah... by Lysol · · Score: 4, Informative

      With YellowDog, wifi worked 'right out of the box'. The only issue I had with it was that it got confused as to which adapter it was. That was simply fixed by telling the wi-fi specifically to bind the proper mac address.

      YDL & Panther peacefully co-exist with no problem. I love my Tibook. I will probably never buy another kind of laptop. Well worth the money.

      Oh, and another thing, the screen is excellent. Probably the best laptop screen I've seen. Apple's parts are all pretty much top notch.

    2. Re:Bah... by finkployd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Buy a 4-5 button mouse or trackball.

      I did with my iMac (which I love) but I refuse to purchase an Apple notebook until they fix this annoying problem. I shouldn't have to carry a mouse with my everywhere just because Jobs does not give his customers enough credit to grasp the concept of two mouse buttons.

      Finkployd

    3. Re:Bah... by warrior · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh, and another thing, the screen is excellent. Probably the best laptop screen I've seen

      I guess you haven't seen the WUXGA screens now shipping on HP/Compaq nx7000/x1000 or Dell's widescreen laptops. 1920x1200 resolution, 15.2 diagonal. I can't believe that Apple hasn't shipped a better screen than 1280x854 on it's 15 inch model. My 15.2inch HP has more pixels than the 17inch Powerbook! The picture is amazing. As a side note, the company that makes the Powerbooks for Apple (Compal), is the same one that makes those HP/Compaq notebooks, so I was half expecting 1920x1200 on the new Powerbook, what a let down...

      --
      Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
    4. Re:Bah... by TheGreek · · Score: 3, Funny

      The market also decided that VHS is better than Beta, that Windows is better than all other comers, and that Britney Spears is listenable.

    5. Re:Bah... by alex_ant · · Score: 3, Funny

      Do they come with free magnifying glasses?

    6. Re:Bah... by b-baggins · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Screen quality is not measured by how many pixels you can cram on it.

      Screen quality is measured by contrast, brightness, pixel responsiveness and quality of the glass.

      Apple screens are far superior to anything on the Wintel side.

      --
      You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
    7. Re:Bah... by alex_ant · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here's why 1 button is just as good or better on a laptop even when you need to use 2 buttons:

      - Left hand: The button is close enough to the ctrl key that you can easily hit both with the same hand. Ring/pinky on ctrl, thumb on the button, index on the trackpad. You may have to hop around a bit, but after you get the hang of it, it's second nature.

      - Right hand: Middle finger on the arrow keys to scroll text/webpages/whatever, thumb on the button, index on the trackpad. Same deal as above. If this were a 2-button setup, with button 1 on the left and 2 on the right, you wouldn't be able to easily hit button 1 with your right thumb and your fingers on the arrow keys, unless you put your left hand down on ctrl to reverse the buttons (and that would suck), or unless you had really big hands.

      I think you overestimate the pain-in-the-ass factor of the one button. Yes it's a pain for the first week or so, but then you get used to it and it's fine.

    8. Re:Bah... by TheGreek · · Score: 4, Informative

      Get off it with your elitism.

      Okay. Let's go with realism. I've used both Apple and PC-based (mostly IBM and Dell) laptops and desktops for the past few years. Let's see how they stack up.

      LAPTOPS:
      On Apple's portables, control-clicking is EASIER than having a two-buttoned trackpad. When I want to reach down to click, I do so with my right thumb, as the heel of my hand pivots to the left slightly, and my thumb extends in that direction. If I want to pop up a contextual menu, my left pinky hits Control as I click with my right thumb. This is very easy and intuitive. Having a two-buttoned trackpad would force me to move my thumb into an awkward position in order to do this.

      DESKTOPS:
      Apple's current mouse design does not permit two buttons without introducing severe usability issues, and, really, as you can get a multiple-buttoned mouse (with a scrollwheel if that gets you horny) easily enough, this isn't nearly as much of an issue.

    9. Re:Bah... by cosmo7 · · Score: 4, Funny

      My mouse has four buttons and two wheels.

      Huh, that's nothing. My mouse has ten buttons, precision crosshairs and has - in place of scrollwheels - a small mousepad on top complete with a tiny mouse that I operate with my little finger.

    10. Re:Bah... by TheGreek · · Score: 2

      Slightly inexact analogy #24601:

      Lots of people are as enthusiastic towards high-end car audio as some other people are towards having a pointing device with 10 buttons and three scroll wheels. (This latter group, incidentally, is generally composed of the same people who subscribe to PC Enthusiast Magazine, regard Norton Systemworks as The Best Thing Ever, declared Win98SE to be superior to Windows 2000, and had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the late 90s and Windows XP.)

      Unless you're looking to get some Kia loving, it's hard to buy a good car that doesn't include a stereo system. Kia is the Packard Bell of cars.

    11. Re:Bah... by WatertonMan · · Score: 2

      The difference is that installing a car stereo is more involved that plugging a mouse in. Further the stereo is often linked to the quality of the speakers. So it really isn't a good analogy.

    12. Re:Bah... by milkman_matt · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually, it's the ctrl key - but that doesn't make it any better. Ctrl-click is a pretty bad substitute for a second mouse button.

      I don't even bother with ctrl-click, I just click/hold until the context menu pops up.. I'm never in -that- big of a hurry :)

      But on another note, I've never taken issue with 1 mouse button.. it's pretty functional once you get used to it.. Plus my 3 button USB logitech works just fine when i'm at my desk and want a mouse or something with more than 1 button.. Seriously, what's the big deal?

      Oh, and boycotting the new powerbooks until they add a second mouse button? That's just silly talk right there. Those powerbooks kick some serious ass, if I had the cash I'd have one on my desk right this minute I don't care if it has 1 mouse button or 10. Right now i'm using a lombard from '99 and it still kicks ass as my primary workstation. I have no issues spending that much coin on a system that's going to last me 4+ years (and still be powerful in 4+ years)

      -matt

  5. Nice evolution by Hanul · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nice thing, this 15" PB. Cutting the wires on keyboard and mouse is surely a good thing. We will see, if the index finger cancer rates will go up... As an owner of an rev. A 12" PB I don't feel an urge to upgrade, although the new RAM ceiling is nice (not sure, if the "old" 12" will work with 1.128GB RAM) as is DVI output.

    1. Re:Nice evolution by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Informative
      [...] although the new RAM ceiling is nice (not sure, if the "old" 12" will work with 1.128GB RAM) [...]

      It will. The increase is due to the availability of 1GB DIMMs.

  6. "Cassie" is back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is it just me, or does the new wireless keyboard looks a lot like the old "Cassie" keyboard prototype? (white, almost frameless)

    --
    -Sid

    1. Re:"Cassie" is back? by mgs1000 · · Score: 2, Informative
      I was thinking it looked a lot like the Apple IIgs keyboard

      But it does seem to more closely resemble "Cassie".

    2. Re:"Cassie" is back? by penguinsloveme · · Score: 2, Informative

      It also looks just like their current keyboards, without a wire.

  7. innovation by hrbrmstr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    OK. I switched (back) to Apple this year (in Feb) for many reasons, one of which was innovation.

    Where's the innovation here? The mouse *still* has only one button (yeah, go ahead, start the button wars flame game) and, while the mouse has rechargable batteries, neither the kbd or mouse has a "dock" to plug in to so they can be recharged easily.

    And, at ~140.00USD MSRP (more if you don't have a bluetooth-disabled Mac) for the Apple combo, it seems like the Logitech bundle would be a better choice.

    Since Apple used bluetooth, they could have at least done something extra with the kbd (like add a mini-tablet area or speakers or *something*).

    I sincerely hope this isn't the beginning of a (bad) trend.

    --
    Mind the gap...
    1. Re:innovation by bigbigbison · · Score: 4, Informative

      No the mouse does NOT have rechargable batteries according to the sight the mouse "Uses 2 AA Lithium Non-Rechargeable Batteries" You could put in rechargable NMi batteries (and you would probably want to) but it doesn't come with them, thus it doesn't come with a dock. Which pretty much stinks if you ask me.

      --
      http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
    2. Re:innovation by Llywelyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >Where's the innovation here? The mouse *still* has only
      >one button (yeah, go ahead, start the button wars flame
      >game)

      I fail to see how a multi-button mouse qualifies as innovation? Logitech and Kensington have been making them for years.

      >while the mouse has rechargable batteries, neither the
      >kbd or mouse has a "dock" to plug in to so they can be
      >recharged easily.

      The question is how long do those batteries last. If I have to replace them once every five years that they aren't rechargeable doesn't matter. If I have to replace them every 48 hours its more of a problem.

      I *imagine* apple did this to cut down on costs and because rechargeable batteries--particularly when you leave them plugged in all of the time, which most people would with their mouse when they weren't using it--tend to lose their ability to hold a charge so they go for less and less time. I do find their choice a bit odd, but I'm waiting to hear how long these batteries last before I decide whether it was a good decision on Apple's part.

      >And, at ~140.00USD MSRP (more if you don't have a
      >bluetooth-disabled Mac) for the Apple combo, it seems
      >like the Logitech bundle would be a better choice.

      I think you mean bluetooth-*enabled*. That said, if you think that Logitech offers the better deal, buy logitech. You can pick up your peripherals from the Apple store.

      Personally, I place a wireless mouse and keyboard very very low on my list of priorities. Something akin to ducks and chainsaws or somesuch. Although, I honestly don't know, are the logitech keyboard's communications encrypted?

      >Since Apple used bluetooth, they could have at least done
      >something extra with the kbd (like add a mini-tablet area
      >or speakers or *something*).

      To what end? Who would those extras appeal to and for what price?

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    3. Re:innovation by mblase · · Score: 5, Informative

      Oh, for the umpteenth time: Apple mice use one button because their research indicates that non-professional computer users never know what to do with a second mouse button anyway. My wife and in-laws are experienced consumers, and they never touch the second button, even after I tell them what they can do with it.

      It's a good idea, and Apple's stuck with it. If you really need those extra buttons, you may as well buy a new mouse. You're paying a premium for Apple hardware anyway, so I'm sure you can afford it.

    4. Re:innovation by Llywelyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >wouldn't catch me using a bluetooth or non-bluetooth
      >wireless kbd no matter what the price was.

      When why the fsck does the price matter to you? As your initial post would indicate?

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    5. Re:innovation by clontzman · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are really two questions here: a right mouse button and the whole Apple mouse-as-a-button concept. The former may or may not (I'd still argue that it does) have merit, but the latter issue is a really significant ding on Mac usability.

      We've been using iMacs as museum kiosk workstations and you constantly see children and inexperienced adults unable to separate the act of clicking from the act of dragging, meaning that every link they try to click, they end up dragging the image across the screen because they don't realize that by resting their hand on the mouse and adding a slight amount of downward pressure, they're still "clicked."

      Or, worse yet, if they are trying to drag something and reach the end of the table, it's not at all clear to them to grip the sides of the mouse to "hold" the click. It ends up causing us no end of headaches.

      "But the clear plastic is so pretty! They coordinate so well with the computers!" :-/

    6. Re:innovation by Llywelyn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > With their laptops however, it's a much more serious
      >issue.

      Not really. Ambidexterity is a good thing.

      When I am using the trackpad on my laptop I tend to use my left hand probably around half the time (no apparent reason, I'm actually right handed).

      That I have a single clickable surface to press, no matter where my thumb is on the pad, can only be qualified as a Good Thing(TM).

      When I need it I pull out my optical trackball. It has two buttons and works just fine, and in most situations having an extra mouse button under my trackpad would just cause problems.

      All in all, that's a pretty good overall solution.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    7. Re:innovation by hype7 · · Score: 3, Funny
      Where's the innovation here? The mouse *still* has only one button


      Go ahead, show me another vendor that has a wireless, one-button mouse.

      Can't find one? A-ha! That's right! Apple innovates again! :D

      (How's that for spin :)

      -- james
    8. Re:innovation by RMH101 · · Score: 3, Funny

      you'd probably just get nerf-gunned by someone who stores his mountain bike over his cubicle

    9. Re:innovation by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Apple mice use one button because their research indicates

      Sadly, there was never any research. It was more of an informal observation made by Jef Raskin, way, way, back when he saw users getting confused using the three button mice on the Xerox Alto.

      And remember, the behavior of buttons back then was quite different to what we're used to now. There were no double clicks. There was no dragging. Naming conventions were awful (they were called red, yellow, and blue, but the buttons were in fact all black, and the screen wasn't in color). And the buttons all did different things in different programs, instead of exhibiting some standard behavior.

      I don't think it was an awful decision -- Windows didn't significantly use the second button until the Win95 era. And the work done in making the first button very useful has been copied pretty much everywhere.

      Though of course the anecdotes of people being confused by multiple buttons have not gone away, and I've seen it before. Both in terms of users knowing which button to push (primary or secondary) but forgetting which is left or right or accidently pressing the wrong one, and in terms of users not knowing which button to push.

      At the very least, making the buttons seriously distinct should be on the agenda. Left and right isn't enough. They should be distinguished in terms of position, shape, size, resistance to pressure, texture, color, be given more prominent names, and have labels with those names on the mouse. Everything to make sure that people aren't going to mix them up.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    10. Re:innovation by willtsmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A reasonable alternative to the right button is a "click and a half" action. Basically do a double click action expect hold on the second click. That could pop up a context menu.

      Likewise, a triple-click could represent a center button action.

      This is keeping with the concept of a simple interface. Power users can access advanced features through advanced actions.

      --
      -------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
    11. Re:innovation by mosch · · Score: 2, Funny

      the click and a half drags things. the triple click highlights lines of text. they're already actions in os x. ctrl-click (or right-click) brings up a contextual menu. it works, we're happy. the only whiners are people who don't even own macs.

    12. Re:innovation by danielsfca2 · · Score: 3, Funny
      non-professional computer users never know what to do with a second mouse button

      On the other side of the map, in a sick irony, there's my father (lost to Windows because of its apparent cheapness). I swear, it seems like he never uses his left mouse button. He just found the right-button one day and now he has no grasp of what the term "default action" means. I'm always like, "Open that!" And he's like, "Ok, Hmmm, let's see, Open, Edit, Play, Add to Archive, Scan for Viruses, Send to:, Delete, Cut, Paste, Properties..."

      And I'm like, "Damn it, LEFT BUTTON! LEFT BUTTON!"

    13. Re:innovation by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Click-and-hold activates contextual menus in many cases - it began in Netscape many years ago, and the OSX Dock does it as well.

      The difference between a click-and-hold for a contextual menu and a click-and-hold for dragging something is, when you're dragging something, you move the mouse (farther than a threshold like 4px) within a certain amount of time (say, 500ms or so) after clicking. This means there's a delay before a contextual menu will appear, so it does slow you down a bit - and, if you mean to drag but don't move soon enough after clicking, you'll get a contextual menu instead (this can frustrate newbies but once you get used to it it's not a major problem).

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    14. Re:innovation by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A reasonable alternative to the right button is a "click and a half" action. Basically do a double click action expect hold on the second click. That could pop up a context menu.

      That would mean if I actually wanted to single-click on something, the app would have to wait until it was sure I wasn't going to click again before performing the single-click action. Doesn't matter for icons in the Finder, does matter for links on a web page.

      The alternative actually used is a simple click-and-hold.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  8. Apple is wrong... by CrackedButter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    to put the fastest processor in the biggest machine, you cannot sell them like powermacs and leave pro features out of some of the lower pro models just to make the 17"inch sell more. People might not want the weight that comes with the biggest and so the 17" isn't everybodies cup of tea, these have to be carried around remember. They should have near enough the same features across the board and have screensize, HD's, memory, BL keyboard as the features to set them apart. Apples strength isn't in processors anyway so why market their PB's them as such?

    1. Re:Apple is wrong... by larien · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Another poster kinda had the point; the 12" Powerbook strength is its portability. Now, if you put a 1.33GHz G4 in there, you will need (a) more cooling and (b) more battery (or lower battery life). Both of these will add weight, negating part of the benefit of the smaller size. Also, the cooling would likely increase the overall size (larger air ducts, etc).

      I would love to be able to get a 1.33GHz 12" powerbook, but engineering would seem to be the problem.

    2. Re:Apple is wrong... by clf8 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anyone who's been waiting for this update knows that it is at least a couple of months overdue. The common concensus in the Mac community is that it's MOT's fault for not getting processors to them fast enough. There's a good chance they couldn't get enough of the 1.33MHz chips to put in both lines, so they only put it in the high end. I'm sure Apple would like to have released a faster one, since everyone's also assuming the next iteration will have G5's in them.

  9. Cooling issues by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I suspect cooling issues are the reason. There's less room in the 12" and 15" models for good cooling for the CPU. I remember the bottom of the 12" gets hot as hell as it is.

  10. As usual by Trollificus · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Apple seems to be one of the few companies that really understands how to make a basic keyboard. There is nothing more annoying than only being able to buy big clunky PC keyboards with 10+ intarweb keys for retards.

    All I want is a slim, compact keyboard with basic functions. Like this.

    Are there any keyboards like this for the PC? I would much appreciate being able to find one.

    --

    "People should be allowed to keep midgets as pets."
    - Gov. Jesse Ventura

    1. Re:As usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > All I want is a slim, compact keyboard with basic functions.

      How about this one.

    2. Re:As usual by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Informative
      Are there any keyboards like this for the PC? I would much appreciate being able to find one.
      Well, if you like Apple's keyboards, why not get one?

      I don't know what the compatability of the bluetooth devices will be like, but I can pretty much guarantee that their USB keyboards will work fine with a PC. I actually do the opposite, being a fan of IBM's trackpoints, I have an IBM USB Trackpoint keyboard plugged into mine. No problems, works right off the bat, the only problem being that the latest model has no "Windows" key, which translates to the Mac's "Apple" key, which means I need a third party utility to get the keyboard shortcuts.

      I seriously doubt there'll be a problem plugging an Apple USB keyboard into a PC. At worst, the power and Apple keys will be non-functional. How often do you use the "Windows" key anyway? ;-)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:As usual by babbage · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, the Apple USB keyboards all work on Intel machines. The only catch is the key mappings of some of the bottom row keys: on an Intel keyboard, the [alt] key is typically to the immediate left & right of the [spacebar], but Apple puts the [cmd] keys in that position instead, and puts [option/alt] one key farther away. The Apple [alt] key works normally, it's just in the "wrong" place.

      The catch is that [cmd] key -- Windows interprets it as the [win] key as found on modern keyboards, and brings up the system menu whenever it gets pressed. Some people really like that key, and find it useful: it's a big time saver for me to be able to use shortcuts like [win]+[E] (bring up Explorer), [win]+[R] (bring up a Run dialog), and [win]+[F] (bring up a Find dialog). However, more people seem to dislike it than like it, and in any case, the problem here is the position: with the system key placed where [alt] typically goes, it's almost inevitable that it'll accidentally get hit all the time -- and this will get annoying.

      Another problem is if you go back & forth between Macs & Intel (Windows/Linux/whatever) using the same keyboard, the situation will get confusing. For example, cut/copy/paste are done on both the Mac & Windows by hitting, respectively, [X]/[C]/[V] and a modifier key. On the Mac, that modifier is next to the [spacebar]; on Windows, it's at the edges of the bottom keyboard row (typically). If you're using Apple keyboard on just Apples, and whatever keyboards on Wintel, then it doesn't seem to be as confusing (just as I don't get confused with the [caps lock] / [ctrl] swap on Sun keyboard), but if you're using the same keyboard on both systems, then it can start to get blurry -- you learn to avoid [cmd] because you don't want the system menu, but then you can't get cut/copy/paste to work because you're hitting [option] or [ctrl], etc.

      This wouldn't be so bad if you could re-map the keys, but (parroting what I've been told by others here), Wintel keyboards just transmit codes for the key bring pressed, but Apple keyboards transmit the actual logical meaning for each key -- meaning that it's apparently not possible to re- map (say) the [option/alt] and [cmd] keys to be in the standard Wintel arrangement. So you're stuck, and all you can do is train yourself to get used to little quirks like the ones noted above.

      But that said, yes, it works, and it can work nicely. I've got a couple of spare Apple keyboards, and even with the funny keymappings they're still nicer to use than most laptop keyboards, so I tend to plug in an old iMac keyboard to use on my fiancee's Toshiba laptop, and for the most part there aren't any problems in doing this -- except for the bottom row of keys, everything works identically.

  11. In other, better, news... by Zanthany · · Score: 5, Informative
    Apple has quietly pushed ahead the release date of iTunes for Windows machines:

    from http://www.msnbc.com/news/966392.asp

    In another hopeful sign for the industry last week, downloading sites Rhapsody and Apple's iTunes bragged that paying customers were flocking their way. And Apple, NEWSWEEK learned, quietly informed some music insiders that it's moved up the date for expanding its current Mac-only iTunes for the vast universe of Windows-based PCs to mid-October. Apple couldn't be reached for comment. As weeks go, it was a good one for the record industry.


    That seems like more of an announcement suiting the frontpages of this hallowed bytespace.
  12. encryption key? by v1 · · Score: 4, Interesting


    The notes say the keyboard uses encryption. I'm a little curious how the key is shared between the keyboard and the computer? At first I thought it might use a standard USB cable to connect to the computer and maybe charge rechargeable batteries, (seems like a good idea!) but it does say "no cables". Maybe you have to type a key in that's presented on the setup control panel? Although I suppose it could be exchanging keys with PGP or other public key technology.

    It'd also be a nice touch if they'd have put USB ports on the keyboard, that could "tunnel" through the bluetooth back to the computer. Sure it's slow, but if you happen to have some other peripherals like a touchpad or multibutton mouse etc., that'd be a nice way to deal with some of the cord issues while maintaining compatibility with existing non-bluetooth peripherals.

    Kudos to Apple though on a bluetooth optical mouse + bluetooth enabled laptop. I don't use an external mouse on my powerbook, but I can see this as "one less cable to plug in" when getting the 'book out of the bag. As it is, when I arrive home I plug in my speakers, ethernet (yes, I have 802 but cable is faster), firewire (for my pod), and power.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    1. Re:encryption key? by Frac · · Score: 5, Funny

      It'd also be a nice touch if they'd have put USB ports on the keyboard, that could "tunnel" through the bluetooth back to the computer.

      Actually I think they should've had an inflatable kitchen sink pop up when I press ctrl-option-delete on the keyboard, but sure, throw in that USB thing too.

      Steve Jobs - kitchen sink and USB. Are you listening?

  13. Why batteries? by anonymous+coword · · Score: 5, Funny

    It seems a real shame that apple decided to put four heavy batteries in them. Couldn't they be more innovitve?

    Why don't they generate the power from the users keystrokes, or send little eltrical signals over the bluetooth protocol?

    My ordinary USB mice don't need batteries, so I don't think that a bluetooth mouse should.

    1. Re:Why batteries? by BenjyD · · Score: 5, Funny

      Personally, I think they should use cold fusion. Or maybe a small antimatter reactor.

  14. makes sense by jilles · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And it makes sense that Apple is the first to ship it (they seem to pick this kind of thing up much earlier than pc manufacturers or microsoft). Bluetooth was invented for this kind of connectivity.

    --

    Jilles
    1. Re:makes sense by robbieduncan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Microsoft has been shipping a bluetooth mouse/keyboard for months. Belkin started offering a bluetooth mouse a week or 2 ago. Apple were not the first, or even the second!

    2. Re:makes sense by Exantrius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      yes. MS bluetooth is great.

      Except it doesn't work with anything. A friend was trying to get a bluetooth mouse and keyboard for his ibm ultra-small laptop (with bluetooth built in). He looked at the microsoft kb/m, and, well, basically you had to use a MS bluetooth dongle and disable your internal bluetooth.
      Just great. Really helpful MS.

      Asshats. /Ex

    3. Re:makes sense by Moofie · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd rather Apple do it right, than be first. Microsoft's BT keyboard is reputed to suck.

      Hint: If you have to use MS's BT adaptor, you might as well not make it BT. What were they thinking? "Oooh! My foot! What a great target! Allow me to shoot it, a lot of times."

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    4. Re:makes sense by nordicfrost · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I will quote my favourite MS Story here:

      ---snip---
      Let me tell you the wonderful story of the Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse. I got hold of one of these right after Christmas and went home to try it out. As I was putting the CD in the computer, I noticed that i said "MS XP only". I was running 2000 at the time (Now running RedHat 8). OK, so I couldn't use the Bluetooth device on my computer without paying additional MS tax.

      OK, so I gave it to a friends girlfriend who had XP on the computer. She couldn't install it, so I went up to her to install the device. I put the CD in the machine and was told that I needed XP SP1 to do this. Fuckin' L. OK. The XP SP1 CD was included was after 30 minutes, it was installed on her computer. Reboot, and try the Bluetooth driver CD again. It seemed to install something but it soon told me that since I did not use the English, Spanish, French, German, Arabic, Chinese, Chinese (simplified), Japanese, Danish or Swedish language, the drivers could not be installed. (She had Norwegian installed) DAMN IT!

      After the failed attempt to get the Microsoft product to work on another Microsoft product, I went to my mother to have a look at her new iBook. I though that just for kicks, I could put the MS Bluetooth dongle in the Mac USB port. So I did, and... ...nothing. No dialogs, no driver installs. Then suddenly, a new icon on the screen! A Bluetooth icon. It worked. Flawlessly. It communicated with my Sony Ericsson t68i AND the Microsoft mouse.

      Go figure.
      ---snip---

      I also attended an MS press conference this Monday, where they presented some new stuff. The only thing new about it all was the fact that the scroll wheel tilted sideways as well as scrolled. It was annoying as hell, and the only use I could imagine was for use in Excel spreadsheets, but none of the computers I treid had Excel installed on them.

      The rest of the press conference was embarassing, it was just a collection of ripped off ideas like Bluetooth PAN integration (Available in Q2 2004 with Windows SP2) and a new chip in the optical mice, that make them last 6 months on two AAs. Just as long as my Logitech optical, that is.

  15. Real bluetooth keyboard?? by johnjones · · Score: 2, Interesting

    is this a real bluetooth keyboard unlike microsofts where they paired via hardware Apple might have done in it software...

    can you use the keyboard with a t68i ?

    regards

    John Jones

  16. specs by Maskirovka · · Score: 4, Informative
    Here are the current specs, shamelessly plagarised from macslash.



    12" Powerbooks 12.1-inch TFT Display
    1024x768 resolution
    1GHz PowerPC G4
    512K L2 cache
    256MB DDR266 SDRAM
    40GB Ultra ATA/100
    NVIDIA GeForce FX Go 5200 (32MB DDR)
    Full size keyboard
    10/100BASE-T Ethernet
    FireWire 400
    AirPort Extreme Ready
    *Mini-DVI out
    $1599 with Combo Drive, $1799 with SuperDrive

    15" PowerBooks
    15.2-inch TFT Display
    1280x854 resolution
    1GHz PowerPC G4
    512K L2 cache
    256MB DDR333 SDRAM
    60GB Ultra ATA/100
    ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 (64MB DDR)
    Full size keyboard
    Gigabit Ethernet
    FireWire 400 & 800
    AirPort Extreme Ready
    DVI & S-Video out
    $1999 with Combo Drive, 60GB drive, $2599 with backlit keyboard, SuperDrive, 80GB drive, AirPort Extreme, 512MB RAM

    PowerBook 17" 17-inch TFT Display
    1440x900 resolution
    1.33GHz PowerPC G4
    512K L2 cache
    512MB DDR333 SDRAM
    80GB Ultra ATA/100
    ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 (64MB DDR)
    Backlit Keyboard
    Gigabit Ethernet
    FireWire 400 & 800
    AirPort Extreme built-in
    DVI & S-Video out
    $2999

    *The miniDVI out is a smaller connector that reuires a dongle to connect to DVI cable or vga adapter.

  17. Back to the iMac-days? by Erik+K.+Veland · · Score: 2, Interesting

    These are not Pro keyboards! We need a PRO keyboard (and a multiple-button scroll mouse to boot) now.

    And please make it match the feel of the new Powerbook-keyboards and aluminum-colored!

    --
    "I tend to think of OS X as Linux with QA and Taste", James Gosling, creator of Java
    1. Re:Back to the iMac-days? by vonFinkelstien · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sounds like Apple is allowing 3rd-party developers a chance to cash in.

      Like Macally's iceKey and iceMouse.

      Someday I'll have money to pair them up with my iBook.

  18. Target Market is the Key by Llywelyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a note: I'm typing this on a 12" PowerBook.

    When I got this machine, speed was not the reason why I purchased it. Performance was part of the reason why I chose it over an iBook--which I am pleased to report it is much faster than my old iBook (with its 8MB graphics card and lack of Altivec, which I needed) ever dreamed to be--but you could have made it significantly faster beyond that and it would not have held more than marginal appeal over this model.

    I purchased it for the form factor. The weight and the size. 802.11g and Bluetooth were both positive points in its favor but the true "killer app" here was that it was smaller than my iBook and I needed a small laptop.

    Apple looked at their target market and said "who is buying each of these systems and why? How much does performance matter to them compared to size and weight?"

    --
    Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
  19. Not the iCEO by penguinsloveme · · Score: 4, Informative

    He's not the interim CEO any more, he's the CEO.

    1. Re:Not the iCEO by li99sh79 · · Score: 3, Informative
      He's not the interim CEO any more, he's the CEO.

      Actually, Steve kept the "i" when he dropped the interim. He though it went well with iMac, iTunes, iLife, iChat, etc. One of his more, er, conceited moves, but that's Steve for you. :D

      -sam

      --
      I was just here, where did I go?
  20. Re:Catching Up by Raffaello · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This never ceases to come up, and it's always from people who think that companies are in business to provide them with neat stuff at low prices. News flash! - companies like Apple (and MS, and Dell, etc.) are in business to *make money*.

    If Apple went to stock x86 hardware, yes, their prices probably would fall. This helps Apple how?

    Apple has assiduously avoided having to compete in the low margin, backwards compatibility nightmare, stock x86 hardware realm for a reason. Apple make systems with a level of hardware/software integration across the product line that is only dreamt of in the wintel world. Because their systems provide such a superior user experience, Apple can, and does, charge a premium for a premium product. This premium price makes Apple profitable.

    Moving to x86 destroys all of Apple's advantages. Their systems would no longer work seamlessly because the near infinite combination of possible hardware would guarantee the same sorts of nightmares seen by windows users daily. And Apple would have to drop prices to compete with MS and Linux on the same hardware platform.

    No wonder Apple have wisely opted to keep their platform different from the low cost, hardware incompatibility swamp that is the world of stock x86.

  21. Man now my PB is 3 generations old. by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And I got it a little over a year and a half ago. The good old PB 667mhz and what now a redesign and faster processor. When will apple stop the pain!

    On a more serious note. I don't really see to much of an improvement in powerbooks. A couple of extra features and the wireless stuff added is cool. But nothing really big enough to really need an upgrade yet. Probably when the G5 is able to shrink and run cool with less power for a power book. But right now the 667mhz power book meets all my needs and it is fast enough. For most of my use (The Maxed out RAM helps).
    I don't have an issue with the wireless keyboards but I do with the wireless mouse. It seems way to easy to loose. Especially with mice because those are the things I drop all the time because of the fact they are always physically moved all the time. I would be happier if the wireless keyboard had a USB port on it to hook up the usb mouse to. I know the wired keyboards had that and Sun Had that on all their keyboards until they went USB and I really liked that concept because of where the keyboard is the mouse it close buy so you can sit back and still have the keyboard and mouse reach. Also when the mouse dropped the wire acted like a safety cord preventing it from hitting the ground, Also making it easier to pick up while typing because you just pull the wire up. Now with wireless you drop the mouse it goes clunk on the grown scratching its nice finish. and worse when you go to try to reach for the mouse you bend over and the keyboard then fall to the ground hitting in a way that some of your letters pop out. because you always touch type you have no real idea where they keys go back to. so you put them in First come First serve. But because one of the keys that fell off was the shift key you put it in replace of the V and B key so when ever you try to write any word with b or v in it will always put vb in it. This will make you look like a Microsoft guy which will then cause all your coworkers to loose all respect for you. So they work the political engine of your company and find a way to get you fired. Now without the job you cannot finish the payment on your powerbook so the Repo man comes and takes it. But after he looked at the keyboard he points out the keys are in the wrong spot. So you cannot even get full reboed value from it. Which puts you in debt.... When will apple stop hurting people!

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Man now my PB is 3 generations old. by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Insightful

      why is it pain?

      does your laptop work?

      then why replace it now?

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    2. Re:Man now my PB is 3 generations old. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative
      I don't really see to much of an improvement in powerbooks.

      Take a closer look at the 15" model.

      • PC133 RAM becomes DDR333.
      • 1GHz CPU becomes 1.25GHz.
      • Bluetooth is integrated.
      • 802.11b becomes 802.11g.
      • 60GB disk becomes 80GB.
      • Radeon 9000 becomes 9600 (think vastly imporved pixel / vertex shaders).
      • FireWire 800 included.
      • Oh, and the new magic glowing keyboard.
      Nothing entirely earth-shaking, but together they make it a lot more appealing. And before you ask, mine's on order...
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  22. Re:Wow... it's bluetooth! by singleantler · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've got a D-link bluetooth adapter for my iBook and a mate bought one for his IBM laptop at the same time, seems to work fine for both systems. He can link up to his mobile phone fine, and we set up networking between the two computers using them to see how easy it was - no problem.

    Was about the cheapest from a known brand I'd seen as well.

    NB: I'm nothing to do with the company, etc. etc.

    --
    "What if they're using IE?" "I've dumbed Mozilla down to cope with it." - BOFH
  23. Oh crap... by mrselfdestrukt · · Score: 4, Funny

    Damn! I can see it already...
    My boss asking me to change the batteries in his mouse every day.

    --
    "I used to have that really cool,funny sig ,but it got stolen."
  24. Re:More advertising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    see people care about what apple does. No one gives a shit about dell

  25. Re:More advertising? by krswan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Here is the thing.... Apple product announcements are the only hardware upgrade announcements that have any relivance to the Apple community. The PC community has mulitple companies releasing new products just about daily. We get something new only every few months - so it is a bigger deal.

  26. Re:Catching Up by MoneyT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The difference is, Apple doesn't nessesarily make new products. They make new products that work well.

    Take for example, USB. Apple didn't invent it, but Apple made it big. USB had been arround for a while on the PCs, but everyone in the x86 world is lodged into legacy hardware. Apple was in a very good position to start making USB only based computers and as a result gave USB the life it needed to take hold.

    --
    T Money
    World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  27. regarding recharging by mblase · · Score: 3, Informative

    From macNN's blurb: "Ready to use out of the box, the Apple Wireless Mouse features two Energizer e2 AA batteries providing up to three months of use. The Apple Wireless Keyboard features four Energizer e2 AA batteries providing up to nine months of use, according to Apple."

    Not a big deal, even if you use disposable batteries.

    1. Re:regarding recharging by JamieF · · Score: 2, Informative

      Rechargeable batteries drain on their own at an alarming rate - a few percent per day. Using them in long-term applications like remote controls or wireless keyboards is not a good application because they won't last as long. Rechargeable batteries are good for certain applications (like my beloved Rio 500 MP3 player) that kill batteries in a day or two but not for stuff like this... or the emergency flashlight that sits in a drawer for 6 months. It'll be mostly drained before you get around to turning it on.

      So, try not to get too upset that Apple isn't recommending rechargeables for these gizmos. Disposables will last longer. And I agree, some kind of recharger dock would be better... perhaps USB power? Oh wait.

  28. Apple Purchases and Reliability or Expectations. by glowurm · · Score: 2, Informative
    The keyboard uses the same Bluetooth wireless technology that lets you easily sync addresses, calendars, and contacts with your PDA or cell phone.

    Well, if my luck with Bluetooth synchronization is any indication, that means if I buy this wireless mouse and keyboard combo it won't be worth the trouble to use it.

    I am severely disappointed with my Apple-based purchases of the last few years; perhaps I am too naive to make good purchasing decisions but it seems that the technology that has influenced my buying decisions doesn't seem to hold up to the promise. For instance, my T68i does not, as you guessed, work very well with iSync or with bluetooth in general. I have standard hardware, a D-Link bluetooth adapter, and the latest software. It's just too much work to get anything accomplished. And I should be able to tell iCal to send a single appointment to my phone!

    I have trouble with Rendezvous too, but not time to detail the problem.

    Even further back, my purchase of a PowerMac G4 450 DP in anticipation of OS X ended up being short sighted, as by the time OS X is actually usable (v10.0 and 10.1 were not, in a production capacity) the hardware is practically outdated. Top that with the fact that the software package that the facility I was working with dropped Lightwave in favor of 3DSMAX and I feel really burned.

    So, I'm about to buy a PC. Custom built, AMD, NForce2, 400MHZ FSB, etc. In a nice, good looking case (without all that neon flashing window shite). And I will run 3DSMAX. And I will use my Apple for production while MAX is rendering. And they will be friends. And if you feel the need to flame me for that, grow up. They're just tools.

  29. Stevenotes! by Xenex · · Score: 2, Informative
    Isn't it kind of pointless to call Steve Jobs's Apple Expo/Macworld speeches "keynotes" when he gives them every flippin' time?
    That's why the enlightened call them Stevenotes!
  30. Re:Catching Up by MoneyT · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You don't have to support more than one machine with one set of configurations.

    Likewise, too many choices can almost be as bad as not enough choices. And when it really comes down to it, how many choices do you really have? AMD or Intel, Radeon or GForce, soundblaster or soundblaster.

    Not a whole lot of real choice.

    --
    T Money
    World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  31. Economics 101 by Llywelyn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    >overpriced, plain and simple

    A commodity is only overpriced if one of two things is true:

    1) It does not sell.
    2) You have reliable evidence that a lower price point would have increased your earnings (note I did not say "unit sales").

    We don't know if these things will sell yet. Simply.

    In absence of evidence whether they will sell at *this* price point, we *certainly* don't have evidence that they would make more money by selling it at a lower price point.

    You think they are overpriced? Don't buy them. For me personally it wouldn't matter whether they sold them at $20,000 or $5+S&H: I don't have a use for them.

    --
    Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
  32. Bluetooth Keyboard & mouse for use with the Pa by adzoox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Probably not because of the secure channel, but it's pretty much a given that someone will make some drivers for it. Watch versiontracker - sounds like a new project for Jonas Salling who made the3 ever so useful Salling Clicker for the t68i phone.

    --
    Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
  33. Re:Double Bah. by kismar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually the Pro Keyboard I got with my Powermac G4 THREE years ago has a seperate island for those keys. Apple's keyboards have had a standard layout for a while now.

  34. Re:Double Bah. by slycer9 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Erm...their keyboards have had separate islands for quite some time now...this is BY FAR nothing new.

    To answer a few questions above:

    Yes, they run Linux...Yellow Dog, Mandrake PPC just to name a couple.

    Yep, they play .OGG, natively in iTunes as a matter of fact, and you can use OggDrop to encode.

    Any other questions?

    --
    Don't park drunk, accidents cause people.
  35. Re:More advertising? by rampant+mac · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "Everytime Apple scratches their butt, slashdot.org approves someones ravenously excited submission regarding the fact."

    I saw this posted by an AC somewhere around /. and I think it sums it up fairly well..

    Yes, Apple does get a better response these days... and why shouldn't it? They've clearly got a clue since OS9, and while not everything is open source, much of it is. They also seem committed to standards and interoperability. While Microsoft is busy mangling standards so that customers are compelled to buy other Microsoft products to assure everything works, Apple has become a vendor that actually cares about playing well with others.

    If you think Slashdot is an Apple love-in without merit, go back and find praise predating recent versions of OS X. Slim pickings, I'd say.

    --
    I like big butts and I cannot lie.
  36. Re:More advertising? by fermion · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Because Apple leads the way in product design. Knowing what Apple is doing helps the community know what to expect from other vender in the future.

    As el reg stated, the once unique powerbook titanium is now copied widely. Fortunately Apple did not sit still. We now have a new design that will be copied.

    Bluetooth keyboard and mouse? None else widely available. I know MS is supposed to have one, but a goggle search only points to vapor.

    Apple has been and is the future of personal computing. They set the tone of coolness. Much like Versace or Prada, not everyone wants it or can afford it, but that does not mean that Gap, Target, and to a lesser extent wal-mart, won't copy it.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  37. as i'm sure you may have noticed.... by radoni · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Apple has made setting up Bluetooth devices as simple as turning them on and clicking through an intuitive setup assistant. The mouse and keyboard are no exception: The new combined Keyboard and Mouse system preference panel includes a Bluetooth tab that lets you set up your new wireless mouse and keyboard in a snap."

    does this not bring into mind the classic x86 BIOS message "Error 5: keyboard not FOUND. [press F1 to continue]"

    seriously though, wireless USB protocol keyboards frighten me due to your keystrokes being transmitted in "plain sight." how is bluetooth and the 128-bit encryption any different? are there plans to allow a single bluetooth keyboard to work with many different computers (i.e. for administration just hit a switch on the device and you can flip to a different channel or something).

    sure, use this wireless keyboard, wireless mouse, but to get either working initially we're gonna have to require that you use mental psychokinetic rays for dialog navigation. i'm sure somebody has the real scoop on this

    so what it is?

    --
    SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
  38. Re:Just when... by troc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    plug a wacom graphire tablet into any mac running os 10.2+ and you can use it as a pointing device AND suddenly a handwriting recognition panel becomes available in the system preferences.

    I admit it's not the same as a touchscreen on a tablet pc or whatever but it does mean pen-based input.

    Troc

    --
    Troc's dubious podcast and blog: http://www.trocnet.net
  39. Re:Wow... it's bluetooth! by rwhiffen · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just be careful which D-link adapter you have. The product page for the keyboard doesn't spell it out, but when you go to buy it in the online store it says:

    "Important: Requires a Bluetooth enabled Macintosh (either built-in or using the qualified D-Link DBT-120 USB Bluetooth Adapter (older D-Link DWB-120M adapters are not supported). Mac OS X, v10.2.6 or higher required. "

    So if you've got the DBT-120 and not the DWB-120M you're set.

    Rich

  40. Re:Catching Up by drsmithy · · Score: 2
    If Apple went to stock x86 hardware, yes, their prices probably would fall.

    I don't know why people think this. The only parts of a Mac today that aren't "stock x86 hardware" are the motherboard and CPU. If Apple ever moved to x86, you can be damn sure they'd be having their own custom-made motherboards without all the proprietry crap weighing down current PC 'boards (ie: no ISA bus/bridge, no PS/2, no BIOS, etc). There would be no way their prices would fall, or feel any real pressure to.

    Moving to x86 destroys all of Apple's advantages.

    No it wouldn't. Apple wouldn't be selling PC clones, they'd be selling Macs that just happened to have an x86 CPU in them. There's no reason at all Apple couldn't make a product just as good using an x86 CPU as they do using a PPC CPU.

    The only customers they'd lose would be the hardcore anti-x86 snobs and low-level developers - hardly a large or core chunk of the customer base.

    An x86-based Mac would not be a PC clone. It would not be capable of running existing x86 OSes and the release of OS X for it would not run on standard PC hardware.

    Their systems would no longer work seamlessly because the near infinite combination of possible hardware would guarantee the same sorts of nightmares seen by windows users daily.

    Nope, you'd just have the same "proprietry" Macs you have now, only powered by x86 CPUs instead of PPC ones. They'd be just as seamless, just as integrated and have just as good industrial design.

    Sure, people could drop their PCI cards into these new machines just like they could into todays Macs - but they wouldn't work any more than they do now.

    And Apple would have to drop prices to compete with MS and Linux on the same hardware platform.

    No, they wouldn't. The same people who pay premium prices for Macs now would pay premium prices for Macs if they happened to be using x86 processors (well, most of them would anyway).

    No wonder Apple have wisely opted to keep their platform different from the low cost, hardware incompatibility swamp that is the world of stock x86.

    These weaknesses of the x86 PC platform would not be an issue to Apple. Not having any care whatsoever for x86 backwards-compatibility, they wouldn't have to expend any effort catering to it - at which point pretty much all of the "swamp" dries out.

    Apple almost certainly opted to stick with PPC primarily because of the problem of software and deloper support through another major architecture change. The impending EOL of 32bit x86 CPUs with no clear successor to meet their ongoing needs would have also been a fairly major factor. IBM having a fairly well performing, cheap replacement in the pipeline probably helped the decision along as well.

    Despite what seems to be common belief, porting the OS and keeping hardware profit margins would barely have been worth a second thought - both issues would be trivially dealt with. A much more difficult issue would have been explaining away the last half-decade's worth of Intel/Pentium-bashing advertising. I'm amazed at how many people consider what would be trivial problems "serious" because they labour under the assumption an x86 Mac would just be a PC clone.

    Having said that, Apple almost certainly still keep at least an x86 version of OS X in constant, up-to-date parallel development and probably keep such a product ported to a number of different platforms simultaneously, as Microsoft would with Windows. They'd (both) be stupid not to.

    Heck, I wouldn't be especially surprised if Apple had (still have) complete, working, x86 based Macs running OS X in their development labs. Whether sticking with PPC (or even choosing it in the first place) was the right decision only time will tell, but I suspect it'll do them well enough for at least another 4 - 5 years.

  41. Whoa whoa whoa... where'd the L3 cache go? by bluemilker · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When the old 12" powerbook came out, a major issue of contention was that the G4 was losing a significant chunk of its performance advantage over the G3, because it didn't have the 1 meg of L3 cache (google cache link) that the rest of the powerbook line came with.

    My first thought about these updates was "maybe apple has finally put some L3 cache in the 12" model!" But when I went to check it out, they had removed every mention of L3 cache on their pages. I doubt that they took the cache OUT of the larger models, so is this just an attempt at obfuscation by no longer mentioning the cache, or did they finally equalize the chipset?

    1. Re:Whoa whoa whoa... where'd the L3 cache go? by green+pizza · · Score: 5, Informative

      All of the PowerBooks now use the same motherboard chipset and the same new PowerPC 7457. This processor has 512 KB of on-chip full-speed L2 cache.

      Previous PowerBooks used older 74xx processors with 256 KB of on-chip full-speed L2 cache and varying amounts of off-chip quarter-speed L3 cache.

      The L3 isn't really needed anymore due to the doubling of the faster on-chip cache. Sure, 8 MB of L3 cache would be neat, but it would also up the price. Be glad the new books have the nifty Mobility Radeon 9600!

    2. Re:Whoa whoa whoa... where'd the L3 cache go? by green+pizza · · Score: 2, Informative

      and more to the point the very real possibility of Half Life 2 on a Powerbook

      The very real impossibility... HL2 is a totally new engine and is pure DirectX 9. Porting it to OpenGL and the Mac environment would be a total nightmare, take years, and would probably end up running slow.

      Doom3, on the other hand, is a totally different story. Hopefully there'll be plenty of games using that engine in the future. (Granted there are lots of games on the Q3 engine, but that sure hasn't helped the mac game world much).

      In a related note, anyone notice how slow Tony Hawk 4 is on Mac? Ugh, what an awful port.

  42. Mouse: non-rechargeable Lithium batteries? by chargen · · Score: 3, Funny

    From the Mouse specs:

    Power Source:
    Uses 2 AA Lithium Non-Rechargeable Batteries (included), on/off switch

    Another stunning lack of innovation ... Why not put two contacts on the bottom and create a USB powered charging base, like the Logitech etc cordless mice.

    I suppose because most people still wouldn't get this for an aftermarket mouse as it has no scroll wheel. Come on Apple! Put your flat-scroll wheel patent to work! Let's at least see something!

    I also hate the way they talk about having a single button as being "easy and comfortable to use, regardless of the size of your hand". What a way to talk up a mouse for simpletons!

    Anyway... love the computers...

    -Pete

  43. Re:It never fails... by waynej · · Score: 3, Informative

    I just ordered a 15" 867 over the weekend, Apple emailed me saying that they updgraded it to the new model. Check your email, they should be doing this as long as yours hasn't shipped yet.

  44. Re:but why would...? by psyconaut · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bluetooth is built-in to a lot of the current Apple laptops already....with wireless mice, you need a USB-based "base station" or dongle.

    And if you think Bluetooth has 'more bandwidth', you might want to look at the specs ;-)

    -psy

  45. Re:Wake me up... by Powercntrl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would love to see Apple become vastly more successful--nothing would keep MS in check better than a serious alternative for mainstream desktop customers.

    The problem is Apple does not WANT the mainstream as customers. Apple is afraid that if they lowered their prices, the "we paid a premium price for a premium product" crowd would be pissed and Apple would lose that niche. Even with more realistic prices, the mainstream might just give Apple the collective shrug and keep buying PCs - leaving Apple with less profit.

    It's a tight spot Apple is in, but I for one welcome our new Microsoft overlords - same as the old ones.

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  46. MS Definition of innovation by Llywelyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >Another stunning lack of innovation ... Why not put two
    >contacts on the bottom and create a USB powered
    >charging base, like the Logitech etc cordless mice.

    Let me get this straight: "Innovation" now means doing what your competitor has done for a long time? Am I missing something?

    As to why they did it this way: My best guess is that they didn't want them to slowly die. Rechargeable batteries need to be plugged in more and more frequently when you keep them plugged in when not in use and their charge lasts for less and less time.

    So rather than have an ignorant customer say "I've had this mouse for three years and its completely unusable now!" they make it clear from the get-go that you need to swap the batteries every so often.

    The real factor here is how often they need to be replaced.

    >I suppose because most people still wouldn't get this for
    >an aftermarket mouse as it has no scroll wheel. Come on
    >Apple! Put your flat-scroll wheel patent to work! Let's at
    >least see something!

    If you want those features, buy your hardware from Logitech. Stop asking Apple to make everything from Desktops to Hummers.

    Incidentally, they do put their "flat scroll-wheel patent to work": in the iPod.

    --
    Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
  47. Also Microsoft by theridersofrohan · · Score: 2, Informative

    has a bluetooth keyboard and mouse combo, here.

  48. Re:Apple Purchases and Reliability or Expectations by myg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I had bought a PC laptop (HP ze5375us) because it was cheaper than the powerbook I really wanted. As long as I can have a development environment I don't really care much about the OS. But the laptop broke after 2 months. HP are being turds about fixing it. So I'm writing that off as a total waste of money and buying a new powerbook. My main gripe with PC hardware is that it doesn't seem to be of the same quality as Apple hardware.

  49. ATI 9600 by obi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nice. great GPU. Frankly I couldn't care less about 100Mhz more or less CPU-clock wise.

    One question, however: does anyone know if the drivers for the R300 series are (or will be) available for PowerPC?

    iirc, the R300 has a binary-only DRI/xfree86 module for x86. Fine, but do they have it for PPC?

    I know nVidia couldn't care less about linux/ppc - I wonder if ATI does (doubt it, for fear of pissing off Apple maybe?)

    I'm also assuming the Airport Extreme card is still unsupported in Linux? That's not a big deal if you have a cardbus slot like on the 15" and 17", but it is a big deal on the 12" - having no wireless support whatsoever in Linux would be a bummer. (And I doubt you can put an old Airport card in them - if I remember correctly they didn't have the same interface)

    Oh, and don't give me "MacOSX is at least as good as Linux" - It may be true, but I'd like to have a choice, if at all possible. There's a lot of Linux programs I've grown used to, and Fink, while good, doesn't cut it compared to Debian for instance.

    It's hard to find a decent laptop. I wish the 12" came out with the ATI Radeon 9200.

    Right now I'm hesitating between the Apple AlBook 15" and the Sony TR1 series. They both have issues with Linux though. :-(

  50. Wireless keyboard and mouse... by Rai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Am I the only person who would rather deal with a couple of cables than have to feed batteries to my keyboard and mouse every couple of months?

  51. 4200 RPM HD?!? by sbot5000 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Did anyone else notice that the stock 80 GB HD is 4200 RPM - almost 30% slower than the 80 GB 5400 RPM HD Option(+$125)?

    Is this lame? How much does it matter performance-wise?

  52. Re:D-Link Bluetooth adaptor the only one? by phillymjs · · Score: 2, Informative

    are there any other USB solutions beside D-Link's?

    There sure are. I have a pair of Mitsumi WIF-0402C adapters that do not claim any Mac support whatsoever from the manufacturer but work perfectly with Apple's Bluetooth software.

    I got mine on eBay for about $20 each back in January from a guy in NYC who had a ton of them, but apparently the only Mitsumi Bluetooth adapters up for auction right now are being sold by people based in the UK.

    I also know Belkin makes a USB Bluetooth adapter. I don't know the price, but considering how Belkin charges out the ass for everything else they make, it's probably not cheap.

    Five minutes of googling will probably turn up reports of a few other brand names that people have tried with Macs.

    ~Philly

  53. lithium batteries :( by novarese · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The mouse requires lithium AAs, which are insanely expensive ($2.50 each, compared to maybe $0.30 for Alkalines), and not widely available (very few manufacturers are making these). Lithium AAs have a higher voltage than alkalines (1.8v vs. 1.5v), and NiMH rechargables are even lower (1.2-1.3v) so the chances of rechargables working well is VERY slim.

  54. Will they Learn? by akpoff · · Score: 3, Insightful
    As much as I really like my TiPB, I always get the impression the PBs are designed by people who work in some business neverland (OK, so they do).

    First -- where's the bloody VGA port? You can't just grab your TiPB and use it as a portable office. The one time you forget to put the DVI-2-VGA adapter in your pocket is the day you'll want to project the current project in the conference room. I wouldn't replace the DVI with VGA but add it to the base system.

    Also, what's with moving all the ports to the sides? Have you spent any time typing on a laptop with cables sticking out the side? I know -- Apple's pushing wireless connectivity but most offices still don't (and won't) have 802.11x connectivity due to security concerns. And there's still no wireless Firewire. As a bonus the older TiPBs looked tidier with the cables flowing out the back, hidden by the screen. Now they look like Pippi Longstocking when cabled up.

    Lastly, an old rant, two buttons on all mice -- especially the built-in track pad. I understand the argument that one mouse button is less confusing for some users, but for whom? All the Macworld video clips tout high-end use by graphic designers, photographers and music producers. I can hear them in the focus group "Come on, Wayne...it's for the noobs." How about putting a big red icon in the middle of the desktop that reads "Don't Panic". Clicking it (with either button) would display a help entry accompanied by soothing music: "Right-button - Mostly harmless. Used by the smart set to get more work done. Safely ignored by you."

    1. Re:Will they Learn? by phillymjs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also, what's with moving all the ports to the sides? Have you spent any time typing on a laptop with cables sticking out the side?

      Er, yes. And it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I love that I can just lean to the side a little to see what I'm doing when I need to connect a cable. No more standing up and/or blindly feeling around the back of the laptop for the correct port. Apple did the right thing by putting the most commonly-used ports (i.e. modem and ethernet) closest to the rear, where they are least likely to get in the way. Same with the AC input on the opposite side. I've been working like that for two years with my iBooks, and never felt like protruding cables were stealing valuable workspace-- and I'm a lefty!

      Also, you can't make the laptop particularly slim if you've got to put the hinge on top of a row of ports.

      I also have no complaint about the single trackpad button. I am apt to click with either thumb at any given time, and it's nice to know that I don't have to worry about which side of the trackpad button is under that thumb. When I want to pull up a context menu, I have to consciously hold down Ctrl. I think this is the right way to go about it, because you're not concentrating on hitting the correct button by default-- only when you WANT to activate the secondary function.

      I use a multibutton mouse with scroll wheel on my G4 at home, and I've set it up so that both buttons return a click, but clicking the mousewheel brings up context. This way I can tell by feel exactly what I'm clicking (and also so I don't get used to having the context menu pop up when I left-click, so I don't keep hitting the wrong button when 'm working on a righty's computer.)

      ~Philly

    2. Re:Will they Learn? by saha · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Regarding

      1) DVI port.
      I think its a good solution for Apple in the long run. I simply carry my DVI-2-VGA port in my Brenthaven bag made for my Powerbook. Its one extra thing to forget, so are the power supply, modem and ethernet cables... As a 3D visualization guy, I wish Apple sold their desktops with dual DVI instead of having the propietary ADC. If I where to use Macs to drive two displays or for stereo imaging I'd need one of those damn expensive DVI to ADC adapters(only $99.00). or ADC to DVI ($39.00). Depending on the invested display hardware and usage.

      2) One button mouse trackpad
      Although, I've complained to the Apple reps numerous times about the lack of substitution from the one button mouse for the desktop models when configuring machines from the online Apple Store, I can see why it isn't feasible to customize the Powerbook to be one, two or even three button trackpad. I simply bought an IBM optical mouse with a scroll wheel and leave that at work. Our chairman has the identical Powerbook I use, but he uses a smaller portable version. IBM optical mouse that works great. Just plugged it in and it works great

  55. Re:Airport by mendred · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think yellow dog supports it out of the box. Not sure but u had a story somewhere of a site that was offering yellow dog preinstalled along with/without OS X . I forget the link but i think it was on slashdot. There was a also some review where theguy was actaully surprised that his airport card worked just fine. I think as yellow dog optimizes their config for apple's machines, everything should work out tof the a box. And they have yum as well. It hink it should be the ultimate combination especially if u are looking for a linux laptop.

  56. Not for a long time! by MarcQuadra · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You won't see the G5 in a laptop for quite a while, maybe never. IBM is working on building a G3 with parts of the G5 SIMD logic (or compatible logic). What you'll see is that the G4 as we know it, the 7XXX series, will die. The 750+SIMD and the 970 will be Apple's chips.

    Remember that the G5 comes from the Power4, which was NEVER designed to be a low-power/low-heat CPU, it will NEVER be as suitable for laptop use as the 750-series will. Even with a major die-shrink and voltage drop, the G5 will STILL put out much more heat than the G4 did, and even that was too much.

    Don't worry though, I'm sure IBM will be using a lot of what they developed for the G5 in the 'mojave' G3s. They might even be marketed as G4s or G5-mobiles because they will have roughly the same features.

    --
    "Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
  57. Apple Store by Phoukka · · Score: 5, Informative

    Down in the lower left corner of the Apple Store is a big red sign labeled "Special Deals", wherein you will find refurbished machines for lower than just about any commercial dealer (Smalldog, for instance...) of refurbed Macs. On the other hand, you'll pay sales tax. If sales tax = $100, go to Smalldog, or similar dealers.

    Refurbs are covered by Apple's standard 1-year warranty, with the option of purchasing AppleCare, so hardware issues, well, aren't an issue. Also, a standard set of software, cables, manuals, etc. are included in the box.

  58. Re:Games? For the Mac? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Also check Amazon. They've got 17 pages of Mac games.

  59. Re:It never fails... by Laplace · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I bought a 12" powerbook yesterday, and today they announce a new model...

    Every Apple user on the planet knows that you never buy a new computer from Apple right before one of their expos or conferences, precisely because Apple almost always unveils new and upgraded models then. You're an idiot.

    --
    The middle mind speaks!
  60. "kick ass" by Slur · · Score: 2, Funny

    But does the G5 insanely kick-ass or kick insane ass?

    --
    -- thinkyhead software and media
  61. Or children by benwaggoner · · Score: 2, Funny

    Forget the batteries, I just don't want to find out where my 18-month old hid the mouse!

    I just wish I still had some non-wireless phones!

  62. What's your definition of "happily" by owlicks58 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Quake 3 I'll give you easily... but UT2003? Come on. I have a 1 Ghz TiBook with a better video card than you and I wouldn't say UT2003 runs happily. I think anything short of a G5 won't run that game happily.

    --
    -Alex
  63. Re:To use this keyboard on a PC... by Maserati · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apple provides a Dvorak layout with (at least) 10.2, it's in SystemPrefs. You still have to move the keys around yourself, or buy a USB Dvorak keyboard - if such a beast exists commercially.

    --
    Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
  64. Re:Double Bah. by Moofie · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Okay, just in case you're curious. To a very good approximation



    NOBODY CARES ABOUT OGG VORBIS.



    Right. Just thought I'd share. If you want Ogg support, download it. Nobody else gives a crap.

    --
    Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  65. Re:mouse buttons - POWERbook specific by ModernGeek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My only question I have for you is how can you be tethered by a one button mouse if all the programs are desinged for a one button mouse? Professional-level or not, Apple feels the one button standard is the way to go, and they have since the early days, and won't go back no matter what, so don't keep waiting, go get another laptop with a 2nd button you will never use.

    --
    Sig: I stole this sig.
  66. Re:Double Bah. by Moofie · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Non-onerously means that they license their technology for a relatively small fee. If you think it's too expensive, that's certainly your prerogative. It is, however, the patent holder's privilege to disagree with you.

    Yes, I'd prefer to destroy software/algorithm patents, but the MP3 licenser (Fraunhofer?) doesn't seem to be nearly as unreasonable as some. That's "non-onerous", in my opinion.

    The processor and the OS on board the iPod is what I'm glomming under the title of "firmware". I don't know if the MP3/AAC decoding is done by a general purpose DSP (that might be easy to adapt to OGG decoding) or if it's a hardware decoder, which would require a major hardware revision for what I believe is a pretty irrelevant improvement.

    There have been posts elsewhere for how to get ogg playback in iTunes, so knock yourself out. iPod support is a different kettle of fish.

    --
    Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  67. Re:Headaches ended by clontzman · · Score: 2, Informative

    I wanted to replace the mice, but they were worried that conventional nice would look tacky with the kiosks. I tried to get them to buy the hard-to-find MS "Special Edition" IntelliMouse that coordinates with the iMac, but they were worried that something third-party wouldn't look as good.

    Not whining; it's just reality, yo.