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Sun Negotiating With Wal-Mart Over Java Desktop
An anonymous reader writes "According to an EWeek article, Sun is challenging Microsoft on a new front: the consumer market. Believing its Java Desktop System is "a more effective home and retail solution," the company is negotiating with major retailers Wal-Mart and Office Depot to include the Java desktop on consumer PCs and laptops."
...is in John Mitchell's blog.
As he says, 'Did you notice how little actual Java there is in the "Java Desktop System"?'
The Army reading list
Now every old, dirty, walking-around-in-WalMart-wearing-their-underwear- at-3AM-because-its-still-open, couple can enjoy Java.
The masses thank you.
(P.S.: Yes, I've seen that, and it is frightening(ly hilarious if you are one of my friends.))
. . . but the more that people get used to seeing non-MS operating systems (even Java and Lindows), the better.
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
I think this is a great idea - a company with a deep and developed support network finally pushing an alternative desktop at the consumer market. As it is also cheaper than a windows license, it is likely to be at least somewhat popular.
Now of course the problem is that Sun's massive support network is currently aimed entirely at business, so it will take them some retooling to make it consumer-friendly. Let's hope they succeed - there hasn't been a big-company supported alternative to Windows on low-end computers since IBM's OS/2.
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
"An IT manager, who asked not to be named, said he could not understand why a user would trade one proprietary desktop for another. "I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."
Hey, MORON! Java Desktop is NOT powered by Java, but rather Gnome2 and Star Office. Jeez, where do they find these IT managers.
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
The idea of Wal Mart selling PCs with an OS to compete with Windows appeals to me. But it can, conceivably, open up a whole host of other problems.
Case in point: My retired aunt and uncle bought a computer based primarily on price. Presuming that the Java-OS computers are cheap, then many people who have never bought a computer will be like my aunt and uncle and buy this computer as their first PC.
What happens when they visit their local techie goods retailer and look for card games, or photo editors, or even hardware like printers, scanners, or digital cameras? Suddenly, things don't work like they're supposed to, and auntie and uncle get upset and call in their nephew to fix things.
The point is this: The hardware is irrelevant. For most people, hardware is nothing more than nails, tacks, and screws. Software is what matters. Unless Wal Mart has Java-OS-specific software right next to the PCs, and can sufficiently educate consumers that Eudora won't install on their computer, then we'll have problems.
(Mind, this diatribe is based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the Java OS. But all thoughts apply regardless.)
Does this mean Sun will help port Deer Hunter to the JDE?
Another hardware platform to hack after it fails miserably in the market and I can buy them for $40.
Wal-Mart sells PCs with Lindows on them from their website. They're supposed to be a decent seller, so they probably aren't adverse to the idea.
I remember dealing with Home Shopping Network a couple of years ago. Their biggest seller was computers, but it was also their biggest return. People just couldn't figure them out properly.
For most people, PCs are just too complicated. They try to please all of the people all of the time, and fail miserably.
Sun might be on to something. Time to check up on their stock.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
But they don't. They don't give a rat's cancerous colon about Open Source. What they care about is cheap.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
As soon as Linux scales well to 128+ CPUs with full binary compatibility (no recompile) and has hot swap CPU/MEMROY/Motherboard support. People who think that Solaris must suck becuase it lacks a cool interface are missing the point.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Unlike the 90s, when most computer users were white-collar workers who wanted to use "the same software" when they got home from work, the home market now includes waitresses, construction workers, tow truck drivers, and a wide array of people who didn't even pay much attention to computers in High School, let alone attend college. These people want to shop on Amazon & eBay, exchange e-mail, take digital pictures, and IM with their friends, yet feel no compusion to ensure that their computer is "IBM compatable" (as we used to say back in the day). They have no work PC to exchange proprietary MS-Word documents with, so they can get by with just about anything that supports the apps they want.
Linux never really caught on with this market because it's thought of as a "geek" operating system, and frankly, it was hyped long before it was ready to be used by Joe Sixpack the Wal-Mart shopper. Put together a cheap box that allows a novice to figure out how to chat and shop online, and you've got a product you can sell.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
OK, so they're naming something not-very-java-ish "Java Desktop" to capitalize on the Java name.
But look at the COMMENTS in this thread, even so far! Look at all the posts going "eww, JAVA? for a DESKTOP?". Java is NOT a name with positive connotations. Everyone "knows" that Java is slow, clunky, and jittery. Of course, the only time they've ever directly used a Java app was AWT applets running on Netscape 4 ages and ages ago, but that's still the perception I think most people have.
Java, from an end-user perspective, was blitzed out before it or the VMs were even remotely ready, was oversold in the embedded-in-web-browsers area (where it ran like crap) and undersold as a facilitator of cross-platform application development (where it ran almost acceptably), was pushed in everyone's face in the form of poorly designed pre-Swing applets, and then quietly retreated completely from the end-user space. This is the last memory most people have of Java (even if it's the woman in wal-mart going "oh, Java? I think I remember that from that email forward from my grandson? that's the thing that makes animations that blink a lot, isn't it?") and outside of the community of programmers and people who know what a "servlet" is, it probably currently has negative mindshare.
Is Sun actually thinking "Hmm, 'Java Desktop System', that's a name people can trust"?
Or is the idea that they now trying to rehabilitate Java's brandname by attatching it to a product that (one can only hope) is actually worthwhile and usable?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Because the writer misunderstood, didn't realize it, and wrote the article anyway.
This happens all the time... the only reason we recognize it here is because it's a tech article.
Just think.... this happens in other fields too, and since we're not in that field, we just don't realize what they're saying is wrong.
yikes.
If it means I can go out and buy a cheap computer that can handle email, WWW, word processing and printing, then I think it is good. For lots of people that would be a very good deal. If I bought such a computer - for how long time would it serve my fathers needs without maintenance?
10 years?
This f***ing business needs to grow up and deliver mature technology.
I have no idea if Suns Java Desktop is the right way to go - but if simplicity and end-user-needs are in mind I think it is a step in the right direction.
Also, IF it would be successful we would see yet another OS (as in commercial product) running on ordinary PC hardware that does not feature all the DRM-shit that MS says they'll put in Longhorn. For hacking c-code any stable and open system will do.
This proposed Walmart deal strikes me as exactly what Red Hat would be trying to do, if they were remaining in the market as a consumer distribution. The article doesn't even attempt to define the Java Desktop System (hence the above links), so there's really nothing in the way of comments as to how good the thing is.
Also, does the "Java" in the name of this product really mean that the desktop is in fact written in Java? I can't imagine that's the case, or why it would be desirable. But one analyst quoted in the article seems to take it as a given that this thing is written in Java:
I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system...If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft.
From what I can see, if this deal comes to pass, Walmart may soon be selling Linux based systems with a highly polished front end, equipped with a suite of office/internet software that does everything an entry-level buyer could want. Seems to me that this would be a big step up from people buying XP boxes. It would increase the market share of Linux, and result in way more Linux software being developed.
So I have two questions. If anyone here has used the Java Desktop System, what do you think? And does anyone see any real downside to Linux if this deal is made?
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
You know this 'Java Desktop' thing has little or nothing to do with Java. But the funny thing was the guy who was interviewed who said something like, 'Well I don't know why we'd use it. It uses Java, and Java crashes computers..." Hmmm.. Good reporting there. Why not ask a chimneysweep or a horsemaster next?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
since they are hardly even business friendly.
,of course, asked me again for all hte detials i had alreayd painstakingly sent them. Then.. I get a call from a guy actually at SUN who was supposedly in charge of ".com stuff". He asked if I had talked to anyone else. I said no. He said he knew I had, because all the resellers report to him. Then he a) quashed a deal with one reseller I was going to buy from, telling them the pricing they were giving me would end up getting them in shit with sun.
The problem, I find, with Sun salespersons, is that they are generally of the opinion that Sun is the supreme god of everything, and that everything not sun is garbage.
I have called sun several times in the past, with a clear, precise list of what I need to buy from them. I explain to them what I want, that I am familiar with all of their services and equipment, and that I really only need what I am asking for. They still manage to waste DAYS worth of time trying to convince me to replace other stuff with sun gear... despite the fact that the sun gear can't come close to doing what I want. Example: Fileserver
I was about to purcahse a 50 gig NetApp NAS box... the sun guy tried to sell me on some sun fileserver.
The pros/cons
NetApp - Hardware raid on FC drives. Filesystem that takes snapshots. Netapp gave me performance stats for NFS ops/sec, etc.
Sun: Software raid on scsi drives. Smaller array. No snapshots. Could not give me any specs on throughput, etc.
Now.. come on. I can appreciate trying to push your company's products.. that's their job.. but you lose a lot of credibility when you try to convince me to use GARBAGE in place of what I want, just because it's not yours.
Example #2: I was about to purchase about $300,000 in sun gear for an E-commerce type setup... I called several vendors. I had my hardware list DECIDED, based on current offerings. Took the resellers almost 3 weeks to get back to me. They gave me some okay quotes... each,
b) Offerred to set up my whole system for me and guarantee it, on the condition that I let them purchase ALL SUN hardware, including swtiches, etc, and could not mess with it.
c) Wanted me to say OKAY to this without showing me a quote. His point was that if he showed me the quote, I could just use that as my system specs and build it myself.
Now.. tha'ts kind of messed up, but he sort of has a point. So I tell him "Look, there is no way in hell I'm committing to anything without full disclosure from you, sorry, what are you thinking". He sends me his specs.
They are MY specs, minus a few items, but it COSTS more.
So what the hell, he's accusing me of potentially stealing his plans when he already SAW mine, and they were just like his?
I started as a perfect customer. We were ready to wire the money immediately if they had just simply GIVEN us a quote for what we asked for. Instead, they fucked around for a month, and ended up losing the sale totally.
I diligently mailed him, his superious, and all the resellers to point out how this guy had totally fucked up for sun.
I also went to a SUN meeting one time.. they wanted to demonstrate the SunRAY stuff (which is cool) and also some windows file sharing stuff. They pointed out how it was way better than samba because it was based on real NT code that they had a license to. Now.. this was all fine and great. Except.. it also contained the NT bugs (for compatability). Okay.. I can understand that. I start asking about how I can integrate this with unix stuff.. are the ACLs in text files? Like, why would I actually want this over an NT server? His answer? Nope, you can't really do anything like that.. it's JUST like using windows, isnt' that great? Except it's on a SUN, so it won't crash. You mean the application won't crash? Oh yes, it will.. he means the computer won't crash.
Sun has made some cool stuff in the past.. and I used to really respect them.. but after trying to deal with them on multiple occassions, I feel they really need to get their heads out of their asses and start dealing with reality.
Two words: Brand awareness. .
Java(TM) is now heavily marketed as a brand and Sun does everything it can to make sure the average Joe know it exists, even if he doesn't know what it is. Don't believe me? Check this up: www.java.com
- Popular off-the-shelf games and other entertainment software.
- Cheap off-the-shelf peripherals -- scanners, digital cameras, usb wecams and the like. They'll expect this stuff to work.
Both of these will pretty much kill the Sun initiative. I think we can be fairly confident that this will fail. Linux on the desktop (basically what this is) would do FAR better if targeted at business users rather than consumers.Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
People don't realize the reason why it's called the Java Desktop, but it has to do with using Linux as simply a set of extremely well written device drivers, and recognizing that the underlying OS is a commodity. *Everyone* now recognizes that value is moving "up the stack" of the OS, and of course an OS is important, at what point does it cease to become incredibly relevant? A BIOS is important, after all, but the shift from the BIOS to the OS is significant enough that the focus has moved to the OS.
.NET but a complete and utter endorsement of Sun's vision? Why not go straight to the source of leadership? Sun is earning people's trust at the same time Microsoft is destroying it, signifying a changing of the guard in terms of overall leadership in the industry. This does not mean that Sun is just going to become another Microsoft, but more that we have entered a new era and the tension comes from trying to hold on to an old paradigm for too long. And, if anything, the Internet weeds out closed technologies. The fact that Java is one of the most commonly referenced "Internet technologies" speaks for itself.
Well, the focus has now started to move away from the OS (as we now think about it, after all the BIOS is a type of OS and pretty much anything could be considered an OS) and moving higher in the stack. Call it marketing if you want, but it's accurate to indicate that this is happening. Some higher level of abstraction from the underlying hardware OS will become so significant that you will cease to notice the OS really. As it is, people think of the Internet as their computer, and Java is similarly a strategy to move the focus of computing more to the network.
Now, the JDS is not pure GNOME, not pure Linux, not pure Java, not pure anything, so why not call it where its focus is? I know my personal interest in it would be for a high level of support and integration with Java. OpenOffice, Mozilla, and other apps use Java technology in one way or another.
What I expect as a result of this move by Sun is to provide better interaction between Java and the underlying hardware OS, such as some of the projects to enable control of USB devices directly within Java. Also, Sun might provide something like what IBM is doing with SWT but using the existing Swing API but with more native support in the JVM (instead of simply a theme).
Sun is absolutely on the right track. Java is a brilliant piece of technology that is really starting to come into its own. People generally assume that when a technology has been around for a long time and hasn't really "taken off" (which some may say about Java on the *desktop*) that it means it won't, and others will realize that it's more a matter of a vision finally coming into fruition. What is Microsoft
I wonder how Sun will handle production of these desktops if they take off. Given the demand that Wal-Mart can generate, it has often reshaped the product lines of it suppliers - frequently in ways that are not profitable to that supplier. People have noted Sun's declining sales of server hardware. However, I'm not sure that pouring resources into commodity desktops will make Sun more profitable.
And I thought "OS/2" was the worst brand name for an operating system.
"Java-Desktop"?
I'll install that along with my "VB Document- Editor" and "C++ Grid-Based- Number-Calculator" software.
Anyone want to play a game of "Run-Around-and-Shoot-Each-Other-in-a-Sci-Fi-Envi
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Whether they care or not has nothing to do with whether they support it. Their actions support it, their motivations are irrelevant.
Hey, I would like to see Linux on the desktop do well, but Sun showing up with a half assed makeover of Gnome isn't going to start a revolution. Lindows hasn't changed the world either, and they've been in Wal*Mart for a while now. Most Wal*Marts I've been in don't even stock PCs.
"Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
Exactly. If your OS can scale well to 128+ CPUs, etc., then you have a platform that has a future -- even if you don't "require" these features today.
Breakfast served all day!
A yearly subscription fee???
Taken from the sun.com:
Pricing
Q.
How much does Java Desktop System sell for?
A.
There are two available pricing options for Java Desktop System:
$100 / desktop / year. An OEM volume tier pricing schedule is also available.
$50 / employee / year for Sun Java Enterprise System customers.
A special promotion is also planned that reduces by 50% the first year price of either of the above two options. This promotion is in effect until June 2, 2004. See:
How to Buy.
Q.
Why would I purchase a per desktop license at $100 when the per employee license is available at only $50?
A.
The per employee pricing is available only if you purchase the software for all employees of your company. If only some employees will use the Java Desktop System, it may be more economical to purchase per desktop licenses.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Sun has not addressed any of the major issues facing Linux and the home user. Say what you like about M$, they do make a hell of a desktop for Joe Six-pack. Consider the first time Joe Six-pack installs some software and it doesn't show up in his menu... That will be the end of JDS for the average home user, the only good point being that as long as Sun sells it as JDS, the Linux community might at some later date reclaim that user, when the needed work has been done.
And that is only one trivial example of a real world ordniary user issue. Literally thousands exist, each of which has the potential to be a show-stopper for some portion of the home user base.
Linux has a long way to go before it is ready for prime time on the home front. Microsoft has queered that pitch permanently. As long as Linux does not provide, internal to the desktop environment itself, the kind of handholding help system that M$ users have at their disposal, why would Joe Six-pack switch?
All of "our" arguments about the superiority of security, etc. fall on deaf ears if folk can't use it. The home user is the guy who uses his CD drive as a cupholder people. Does anyone think Linux is ready to deal with that level of incompetence? But that is the market Sun is going after? Does anyone else see the problem there?
Now everyone restrain yourself before posting your favorite Linux rhetoric in reply. Your elegantly crafted arguments, and the sublime supremacy of your arguments (and mine) are all predicated on the necessity that the audience has access to the relveant information, but more importantly, can understand that information, and comprehend the implications of it. Now apply that to Joe Six-pack.
I understand the missionary urge that makes most of us want to push oour OS to the limit, but to be successful at converting the "heathens" requires more than a strong wish. Consider the Roman Catholic Church and Christmas. Christmas is a compromise, a case where accepted religious doctrine was modified in order to be able to attract, and retain converts among the pagans. That it was extremely successful is obvious, that it fundamentally changed core aspects of Catholocism should also be obvious. I have serious concerns about the "Church of Linus" being able to accomplish the same thing.
How many of you would accept fundamental changes to Linux in order to get it widespread use in private homes?
More importantly, how many of you would accept fundamental changes you were diametrically opposed to in oder to get Linux on more home desktops?
I strongly suspect that such a fork is coming. While I won't be so naive as to suggest that the Linuxwe all know and love is going to go away, but I will suggest it will not be the Linux that could succeed in the home market.
As Catholocsim has to make some room for patently pagan beliefs in order to grow and spread, Linux may well have to make some room for heretical beliefs for the same reasons.
"Talk minus action equals nothing" - Joey Shithead, D.O.A.
"Talk minus action equals
This article does a good job of conveying WalMart's reach. Microsoft rules the desktop, but WalMart rules retail.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I'd suggest that Sun has been building something pretty serious, one careful step at a time.
In order to challenge Microsoft they need to see some other OS on PCs. On a practical level it doesn't matter what OS, as long as it's not Windows.
But as noted, it's applications that drive PC purchases, not the OS. So what has Sun done?
Purchased StarOffice, spun off OpenOffice, and this week added support for the latter. For 95% of people the Sun office suites will handle anything that they want to do, as well as saving in MS compatible formats. It may not be perfect, but it's certainly Good enough. Better than MS Works in any event.
Add Mozilla and maybe Evolution for e-mail and you've covered the bulk of most people's activities.
So Sun can offer a non-Windows OS, a non-Windows software package. Bundle the new PC with a printer and Monitor, maybe a scanner, and you have a complete package that will suit most folks. If it does these things, and maybe connects with their digital camera, then they don't care about OSs and Application names.
The only thing left is marketing. Sell a similar box to say a fraction of the population of China and your per unit costs drop fast. Fast enough that you can also sell to WalMart, make a profit, and allow them to undercut other retailers.
Sure, there will be some problems supporting software and other hardware, but It still looks to me like Sun has a good chance of starting to eat into Microsoft's market share.
Barry
Three Squirrels
128 cpus? 2.6 kernel
no recompile? awww, shucks, I'm running a 128 cpu box and I don't know how to recompile!
If you're running a 128 CPU box, lack of knowledge will not be your problem, SLA's will be. If Linux is in there, you *will* only get to use an 'enterprise' flavour of Linux or you're on your own. Redhat or SuSE. You can't recompile your kernel even if you wanted to (not that you would) or you'd lose support.
Is Sun selling Solaris separate from 128 cpu boxes? Or are they installing Solaris on those boxes when setting them up for customers? Is IBM setting up linux on their 128 processor boxes? Or are they selling 128 processor boxes and handing the operating system to customers in boxes, requiring customers to recompile?
Hot swap? Who gives a rat's ass? Haven't you seen the latest sales? Big iron is out, clustering is in. You don't need hotswap anything when clustering, that includes drives. Just ask Oracle.
Let me tell you as someone who has just spent the last 3 weeks evaluating Oracle RAC for a major outsourcing company. My recommendation will be: stick to plain Oracle on mid-range Sun hardware with FOM software, this stuff is waay too immature and it sucks badly for even moderate OLTP workloads. Extended distance clustering? Forget it.
You pick the absolute smallest part of the market, 128 cpu boxes, which in some quarters absolutely no company sells, and use that to slam linux over the entire server market? Get a life.
The smallest part of the market has the most money to spend and are often extremely loyal. No one in their right mind deploys mission critical applications on a Solaris instance with that many CPU's because CPU's have about the worst MTBF after disks and PSUs - stick 128 CPUs in there and you'll be rebooting every few months! You deploy these boxes underspec'ed, partition them and dynamically add and remove boards between them as the business requires.
Let us know when Solaris fits in less than 1 MB of space, when Solaris is running on cell phones, when Solaris is used as device drivers, when Solaris is used in routers, when Solaris is used in mesh networks, when Solaris is used in embedded devices, when Solaris is used in consumer electronics, when Solaris...
Solaris isn't designed for those applications. Neither is windows (just look at the train wreck that is PocketPC), neither are the BSDs, neither is Linux. Is kernel 2.6 going to fit in 1MB? I'd be surprised, it was hard enough getting a 2.4 kernel with PCMCIA and soundcard support + libm and mpg123 onto a 1.4MB floppy disk 3 years ago.
You're confusing open source with open systems. The interfaces *must* be open, the source is nice to have open. You'd be mad to deploy an enterprise UNIX on consumer devices and even madder to do the reverse.
# init 5
Connection closed.
Oh...
I think what they're trying to do here is set up a system with which the easiest way to get new applications is to get new Java applications through JWS.
If you haven't used JWS, go and install the plugin and try it out. A friend of mine wrote a class diagram / UML tool called The Virtual Bar Napkin. If you have JWS installed, you can hit the link on his webpage and the application is running in a few seconds.
He didn't have to write an installer, or deal with a page saying "for this version, click here, for that version, click there".
And to clarify, It is not an applet. It's an application, running in its own window, etc. Furthermore, it is actually installed on your system, and you can access it later through the regular menu system (on windows) without having to be connected to the net. Upgrading to new versions is just as trivial.
JWS is a great example of the promise of Java. Write your client application, distribute it seamlessly, update it in near real time, and avoid all the nonsense with servlets and sessions and HTML + javascript web interface nightmare.
So long as this gets us closer to that, I'm interested.
-Zipwow
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.