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Sun Negotiating With Wal-Mart Over Java Desktop
An anonymous reader writes "According to an EWeek article, Sun is challenging Microsoft on a new front: the consumer market. Believing its Java Desktop System is "a more effective home and retail solution," the company is negotiating with major retailers Wal-Mart and Office Depot to include the Java desktop on consumer PCs and laptops."
...is in John Mitchell's blog.
As he says, 'Did you notice how little actual Java there is in the "Java Desktop System"?'
The Army reading list
How many games or entertainment packages are supported under the JDS ?
[ Monday is a terrible way to spend one seventh of your life. ]
Now every old, dirty, walking-around-in-WalMart-wearing-their-underwear- at-3AM-because-its-still-open, couple can enjoy Java.
The masses thank you.
(P.S.: Yes, I've seen that, and it is frightening(ly hilarious if you are one of my friends.))
Being that there is so little java in java desktop anyway (as mentioned above), maybe they should rename it to six-pack-of-bud desktop, or Moonshine-computing environment to appeal to the walmart market.
Java is so upper-class yuppy: Apple users would eat that up!
disclaimer: posted from a powerbook at a down-town coffee shop
That they are going to make more money off Linux than they ever possibly could off Solaris, do a complete about face, and proclaim 'Linux is the best choice for the server as well as the desktop, and Solaris is `legacy` technology.'
I give it a till June next year.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
They're not going to use Lindows. SJD seems to actually emphasize quality over gimmick.
not that "Java Desktop" is gimmick-free... just call it GNOME, damnit!
. . . but the more that people get used to seeing non-MS operating systems (even Java and Lindows), the better.
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
I think this is a great idea - a company with a deep and developed support network finally pushing an alternative desktop at the consumer market. As it is also cheaper than a windows license, it is likely to be at least somewhat popular.
Now of course the problem is that Sun's massive support network is currently aimed entirely at business, so it will take them some retooling to make it consumer-friendly. Let's hope they succeed - there hasn't been a big-company supported alternative to Windows on low-end computers since IBM's OS/2.
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
"An IT manager, who asked not to be named, said he could not understand why a user would trade one proprietary desktop for another. "I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."
Hey, MORON! Java Desktop is NOT powered by Java, but rather Gnome2 and Star Office. Jeez, where do they find these IT managers.
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
The idea of Wal Mart selling PCs with an OS to compete with Windows appeals to me. But it can, conceivably, open up a whole host of other problems.
Case in point: My retired aunt and uncle bought a computer based primarily on price. Presuming that the Java-OS computers are cheap, then many people who have never bought a computer will be like my aunt and uncle and buy this computer as their first PC.
What happens when they visit their local techie goods retailer and look for card games, or photo editors, or even hardware like printers, scanners, or digital cameras? Suddenly, things don't work like they're supposed to, and auntie and uncle get upset and call in their nephew to fix things.
The point is this: The hardware is irrelevant. For most people, hardware is nothing more than nails, tacks, and screws. Software is what matters. Unless Wal Mart has Java-OS-specific software right next to the PCs, and can sufficiently educate consumers that Eudora won't install on their computer, then we'll have problems.
(Mind, this diatribe is based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the Java OS. But all thoughts apply regardless.)
Does this mean Sun will help port Deer Hunter to the JDE?
Another hardware platform to hack after it fails miserably in the market and I can buy them for $40.
Wal-Mart sells PCs with Lindows on them from their website. They're supposed to be a decent seller, so they probably aren't adverse to the idea.
I remember dealing with Home Shopping Network a couple of years ago. Their biggest seller was computers, but it was also their biggest return. People just couldn't figure them out properly.
For most people, PCs are just too complicated. They try to please all of the people all of the time, and fail miserably.
Sun might be on to something. Time to check up on their stock.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
From the article...
"I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."
I've never, ever seen Java "crash the system". Not on a mac, or on a PC. Where did they find this crackhead? I'm sure I'm going to get modded down for this, but the linux zealots need to stop with this "IT HAS TO BE IN C AND OPEN SOURCE TO BE GOOD". Anything that takes desktop market share away from microsoft at this point is good.
Here: Java Desktop to Maybe Help Brits Stay Healthier, Cheaper?" and here "What does 'Java-based' actually mean any more?"
maybe it's time for sun to get in on that action too...
2 1337 4 u!
So, when can we expect to see Wal-Mart selling this new line of furniture with integrated coffee machines?
The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
But they don't. They don't give a rat's cancerous colon about Open Source. What they care about is cheap.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Wal-Mart will be ready to sell this, but only on their website (like the Mandrake and Lindows $200 computers).
Did you notice how many posts here assumed that Java platform has anything to do with this Java Desktop System???
Even Java OS was mentioned!!!
People, Sun JDS is a Gnome based Linux distro with some Java apps on it. It is not written in / does not utilize Java platform. See OSnews review of JDS or Slashdot review of the review.
See, I think its funny for a different reason.
Sun isn't challenging Microsoft. Apple isn't challenging Microsoft. *nix isn't challenging Microsoft. Even combined, they're not a challenge to Microsoft.
A challenger would be a company that suddenly starts earning a MASSIVE amount of Microsoft customers over. Apple had a brief stint of this when the iMac came out, but that leveled out (or did it fall back down?) quickly.
Microsoft STILL has, what, a ninety-something percent market share? Yeah. They don't have challenges right now. Doesn't mean they're not going to *react* as though they did, but in all honesty, they really really don't.
If they expect to steal users over from Microsoft Windows, they're going to have to work REALLY hard at improving the UI that was /. reviewed last week (the crappy /. search won't return the right link).
If, however, they're targetting current advanced users of Linux/etc, what makes them think these users will pay buy their desktop instead of putting one together themselves and downloading linux.
I would think most average users would rather go in for a dual boot system rather than linux/unix alone, because of the amount of family/educational software/games etc available for Windows.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Unlike the 90s, when most computer users were white-collar workers who wanted to use "the same software" when they got home from work, the home market now includes waitresses, construction workers, tow truck drivers, and a wide array of people who didn't even pay much attention to computers in High School, let alone attend college. These people want to shop on Amazon & eBay, exchange e-mail, take digital pictures, and IM with their friends, yet feel no compusion to ensure that their computer is "IBM compatable" (as we used to say back in the day). They have no work PC to exchange proprietary MS-Word documents with, so they can get by with just about anything that supports the apps they want.
Linux never really caught on with this market because it's thought of as a "geek" operating system, and frankly, it was hyped long before it was ready to be used by Joe Sixpack the Wal-Mart shopper. Put together a cheap box that allows a novice to figure out how to chat and shop online, and you've got a product you can sell.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
OK, so they're naming something not-very-java-ish "Java Desktop" to capitalize on the Java name.
But look at the COMMENTS in this thread, even so far! Look at all the posts going "eww, JAVA? for a DESKTOP?". Java is NOT a name with positive connotations. Everyone "knows" that Java is slow, clunky, and jittery. Of course, the only time they've ever directly used a Java app was AWT applets running on Netscape 4 ages and ages ago, but that's still the perception I think most people have.
Java, from an end-user perspective, was blitzed out before it or the VMs were even remotely ready, was oversold in the embedded-in-web-browsers area (where it ran like crap) and undersold as a facilitator of cross-platform application development (where it ran almost acceptably), was pushed in everyone's face in the form of poorly designed pre-Swing applets, and then quietly retreated completely from the end-user space. This is the last memory most people have of Java (even if it's the woman in wal-mart going "oh, Java? I think I remember that from that email forward from my grandson? that's the thing that makes animations that blink a lot, isn't it?") and outside of the community of programmers and people who know what a "servlet" is, it probably currently has negative mindshare.
Is Sun actually thinking "Hmm, 'Java Desktop System', that's a name people can trust"?
Or is the idea that they now trying to rehabilitate Java's brandname by attatching it to a product that (one can only hope) is actually worthwhile and usable?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
If Wal Mart is really just looking to sell PCs at the cheapest possible price, I don't think the day the is too far away when Linux distros are sufficiently commodidized for there to be a Sam's Choice Distribution on their bottom end PCs. Just knock off the Windows look and feel, and throw a red white and blue theme on there.
Because the writer misunderstood, didn't realize it, and wrote the article anyway.
This happens all the time... the only reason we recognize it here is because it's a tech article.
Just think.... this happens in other fields too, and since we're not in that field, we just don't realize what they're saying is wrong.
yikes.
I'll bet if they used Ray Charles instead of BB King, more people would have bought them.
If it means I can go out and buy a cheap computer that can handle email, WWW, word processing and printing, then I think it is good. For lots of people that would be a very good deal. If I bought such a computer - for how long time would it serve my fathers needs without maintenance?
10 years?
This f***ing business needs to grow up and deliver mature technology.
I have no idea if Suns Java Desktop is the right way to go - but if simplicity and end-user-needs are in mind I think it is a step in the right direction.
Also, IF it would be successful we would see yet another OS (as in commercial product) running on ordinary PC hardware that does not feature all the DRM-shit that MS says they'll put in Longhorn. For hacking c-code any stable and open system will do.
Okay... so we can all agree that calling this "java desktop system" is really confusing and fuels misconception about the product. The question is -- will this sort of branding dilute the meaning of "java" to that of ".NET"? ;-)
-m
This proposed Walmart deal strikes me as exactly what Red Hat would be trying to do, if they were remaining in the market as a consumer distribution. The article doesn't even attempt to define the Java Desktop System (hence the above links), so there's really nothing in the way of comments as to how good the thing is.
Also, does the "Java" in the name of this product really mean that the desktop is in fact written in Java? I can't imagine that's the case, or why it would be desirable. But one analyst quoted in the article seems to take it as a given that this thing is written in Java:
I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system...If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft.
From what I can see, if this deal comes to pass, Walmart may soon be selling Linux based systems with a highly polished front end, equipped with a suite of office/internet software that does everything an entry-level buyer could want. Seems to me that this would be a big step up from people buying XP boxes. It would increase the market share of Linux, and result in way more Linux software being developed.
So I have two questions. If anyone here has used the Java Desktop System, what do you think? And does anyone see any real downside to Linux if this deal is made?
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
The name is incredibly misleading and I think will ultimately hurt the product. Consumers associate brand names, IMHO, as umbrella terms under which features (like language support and applications) fall. For example notice how Windows 2003 is not Windows .NET Server 2003. I suppose that name was a candidate, but it was decided to identify the product more uniquely, a simpler name was chosen. Because .NET can run on other Windows versions as well. This helps seperate the ideas of .NET with the single product Windows 2003. What seems to a technical person marketing-speak, is much more clear to a non-technical mind.
/. and surely will confuse other crowds.
Not only that, the most important and effective name, Linux, seems to be left out. Just as Linux is gaining mindshare, Sun decides to confuse an OS with a language.
Maybe if Sun did something clever and made an appliance-like OS with Java or something, then this would be appropriate. As it stands, it seems stupid on
You know this 'Java Desktop' thing has little or nothing to do with Java. But the funny thing was the guy who was interviewed who said something like, 'Well I don't know why we'd use it. It uses Java, and Java crashes computers..." Hmmm.. Good reporting there. Why not ask a chimneysweep or a horsemaster next?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
since they are hardly even business friendly.
,of course, asked me again for all hte detials i had alreayd painstakingly sent them. Then.. I get a call from a guy actually at SUN who was supposedly in charge of ".com stuff". He asked if I had talked to anyone else. I said no. He said he knew I had, because all the resellers report to him. Then he a) quashed a deal with one reseller I was going to buy from, telling them the pricing they were giving me would end up getting them in shit with sun.
The problem, I find, with Sun salespersons, is that they are generally of the opinion that Sun is the supreme god of everything, and that everything not sun is garbage.
I have called sun several times in the past, with a clear, precise list of what I need to buy from them. I explain to them what I want, that I am familiar with all of their services and equipment, and that I really only need what I am asking for. They still manage to waste DAYS worth of time trying to convince me to replace other stuff with sun gear... despite the fact that the sun gear can't come close to doing what I want. Example: Fileserver
I was about to purcahse a 50 gig NetApp NAS box... the sun guy tried to sell me on some sun fileserver.
The pros/cons
NetApp - Hardware raid on FC drives. Filesystem that takes snapshots. Netapp gave me performance stats for NFS ops/sec, etc.
Sun: Software raid on scsi drives. Smaller array. No snapshots. Could not give me any specs on throughput, etc.
Now.. come on. I can appreciate trying to push your company's products.. that's their job.. but you lose a lot of credibility when you try to convince me to use GARBAGE in place of what I want, just because it's not yours.
Example #2: I was about to purchase about $300,000 in sun gear for an E-commerce type setup... I called several vendors. I had my hardware list DECIDED, based on current offerings. Took the resellers almost 3 weeks to get back to me. They gave me some okay quotes... each,
b) Offerred to set up my whole system for me and guarantee it, on the condition that I let them purchase ALL SUN hardware, including swtiches, etc, and could not mess with it.
c) Wanted me to say OKAY to this without showing me a quote. His point was that if he showed me the quote, I could just use that as my system specs and build it myself.
Now.. tha'ts kind of messed up, but he sort of has a point. So I tell him "Look, there is no way in hell I'm committing to anything without full disclosure from you, sorry, what are you thinking". He sends me his specs.
They are MY specs, minus a few items, but it COSTS more.
So what the hell, he's accusing me of potentially stealing his plans when he already SAW mine, and they were just like his?
I started as a perfect customer. We were ready to wire the money immediately if they had just simply GIVEN us a quote for what we asked for. Instead, they fucked around for a month, and ended up losing the sale totally.
I diligently mailed him, his superious, and all the resellers to point out how this guy had totally fucked up for sun.
I also went to a SUN meeting one time.. they wanted to demonstrate the SunRAY stuff (which is cool) and also some windows file sharing stuff. They pointed out how it was way better than samba because it was based on real NT code that they had a license to. Now.. this was all fine and great. Except.. it also contained the NT bugs (for compatability). Okay.. I can understand that. I start asking about how I can integrate this with unix stuff.. are the ACLs in text files? Like, why would I actually want this over an NT server? His answer? Nope, you can't really do anything like that.. it's JUST like using windows, isnt' that great? Except it's on a SUN, so it won't crash. You mean the application won't crash? Oh yes, it will.. he means the computer won't crash.
Sun has made some cool stuff in the past.. and I used to really respect them.. but after trying to deal with them on multiple occassions, I feel they really need to get their heads out of their asses and start dealing with reality.
I would say this is an extremely smart move for Sun. My dad (who is a CPA) read in one of his Magazines that Walmart contributes either 5% or 10%, can't remember, of the US's GNP. That doesn't sound like a lot, but for one company to have that much share is huge.
"But that's precisely the point! Sun is trying to associate their new Linux/GNOME distribution with the Java brand"
But, then, shouldn't they have followed standard GNOME protocol and renamed it GN AVA DESKTOP?!!!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Obviously, you know very little about Sam Walton (the founder of the Wal-Mart chains). He was VERY into MADE IN AMERICA for those of you old enough to remember. It was only AFTER his death that it has become impossible to find something there which is NOT Made In China. Please do not curse someone because their legacy has been corrupted.
Two words: Brand awareness. .
Java(TM) is now heavily marketed as a brand and Sun does everything it can to make sure the average Joe know it exists, even if he doesn't know what it is. Don't believe me? Check this up: www.java.com
- Popular off-the-shelf games and other entertainment software.
- Cheap off-the-shelf peripherals -- scanners, digital cameras, usb wecams and the like. They'll expect this stuff to work.
Both of these will pretty much kill the Sun initiative. I think we can be fairly confident that this will fail. Linux on the desktop (basically what this is) would do FAR better if targeted at business users rather than consumers.Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
People don't realize the reason why it's called the Java Desktop, but it has to do with using Linux as simply a set of extremely well written device drivers, and recognizing that the underlying OS is a commodity. *Everyone* now recognizes that value is moving "up the stack" of the OS, and of course an OS is important, at what point does it cease to become incredibly relevant? A BIOS is important, after all, but the shift from the BIOS to the OS is significant enough that the focus has moved to the OS.
.NET but a complete and utter endorsement of Sun's vision? Why not go straight to the source of leadership? Sun is earning people's trust at the same time Microsoft is destroying it, signifying a changing of the guard in terms of overall leadership in the industry. This does not mean that Sun is just going to become another Microsoft, but more that we have entered a new era and the tension comes from trying to hold on to an old paradigm for too long. And, if anything, the Internet weeds out closed technologies. The fact that Java is one of the most commonly referenced "Internet technologies" speaks for itself.
Well, the focus has now started to move away from the OS (as we now think about it, after all the BIOS is a type of OS and pretty much anything could be considered an OS) and moving higher in the stack. Call it marketing if you want, but it's accurate to indicate that this is happening. Some higher level of abstraction from the underlying hardware OS will become so significant that you will cease to notice the OS really. As it is, people think of the Internet as their computer, and Java is similarly a strategy to move the focus of computing more to the network.
Now, the JDS is not pure GNOME, not pure Linux, not pure Java, not pure anything, so why not call it where its focus is? I know my personal interest in it would be for a high level of support and integration with Java. OpenOffice, Mozilla, and other apps use Java technology in one way or another.
What I expect as a result of this move by Sun is to provide better interaction between Java and the underlying hardware OS, such as some of the projects to enable control of USB devices directly within Java. Also, Sun might provide something like what IBM is doing with SWT but using the existing Swing API but with more native support in the JVM (instead of simply a theme).
Sun is absolutely on the right track. Java is a brilliant piece of technology that is really starting to come into its own. People generally assume that when a technology has been around for a long time and hasn't really "taken off" (which some may say about Java on the *desktop*) that it means it won't, and others will realize that it's more a matter of a vision finally coming into fruition. What is Microsoft
As people have always said, it's all about the applications. Better OS's than MS have come and gone - but windows holds the desktop because they have the desktop applications.
and argue as you may about performance or server marketshare or stability -- linux does not have the consumer application maturity.
the home consumer wants to create birthday cards, print pictures from their digicams, play games off-the-shelf, do their taxes, browse, keep a schedule, and email.
Sure, linux does all those things. but as the stifling size of the MS consumer software market shows -- having the application available does not mean you have the interface the user likes. often the home user will buy a program that lets him do something he can already do. but because the interface is so backwards, he doesn't even know it.
many home consumers will routinely use a different graphics program to scan than they do to make an invitation or an envelope or print digital pictures. current linux users are absolutely content with the single complex program. you can see there, the purpose gap as well as a culture gap between linux and the average home user.
the installation procedures, the dependencies, recompiles, configs -- it all echoes the hardcore requirements, and stands in contrast to the home user's needs.
linux on the home desktop can start to beat microsoft when the installation becomes easier, the interfaces become better, and the silly applications that slashdotters don't buy start to appear.
so unless Sun is going to really work on the consumer usability end of linux - it isn't going to work.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
As for the game issue, you are still thinking in terms of the typical 1990s computer buyer, which is an already-saturated market. The "25-year old waitress who didn't go to college" type that I'm talking about, if she plays computer games at all, plays the puzzle games on PopCap, not a $60 release of "Unreal Tournament IV." She doesn't even know about the games that Windows supports, let alone care about them.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I wonder how Sun will handle production of these desktops if they take off. Given the demand that Wal-Mart can generate, it has often reshaped the product lines of it suppliers - frequently in ways that are not profitable to that supplier. People have noted Sun's declining sales of server hardware. However, I'm not sure that pouring resources into commodity desktops will make Sun more profitable.
And even then, there's not much hardware that scales like Sun's does. Think about this: if a processor has a bit of memory in cache, and another processor updates that value in RAM the original processor now needs an updated value. Scale that over 100+ processors.
Intel processors can't do it.
Yet Sparc/Solaris does it damn near linearly - for a hundred or more processors.
Where else but Sun can you get 100 or so 64-bit processors with uniform access to half a terabyte of RAM? Right here.
And I thought "OS/2" was the worst brand name for an operating system.
"Java-Desktop"?
I'll install that along with my "VB Document- Editor" and "C++ Grid-Based- Number-Calculator" software.
Anyone want to play a game of "Run-Around-and-Shoot-Each-Other-in-a-Sci-Fi-Envi
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Whether they care or not has nothing to do with whether they support it. Their actions support it, their motivations are irrelevant.
Yeah, that caught my eye too. Here's the text of a letter I just sent eWeek, to express my disgust at their quality of journalism:
.Net developers I work with know this. So glaring that I can only think of 2 reasons this made into this article: you were duped or you are actively involved in a campaign to discredit the system.
"I am writing you to point out some inaccuracies in your article, posted on your site today:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1406463,00. as p
More specifically, these paragraphs:
"At the same time, some users are painting Sun with the same proprietary brush they say applies to Microsoft and its products. An IT manager, who asked not to be named, said he could not understand why a user would trade one proprietary desktop for another.
"I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."
This is clearly FUD by this so-called IT manager, who does not want to be identified, likely because he works for Microsoft.
Firstly, equating this as a "proprietary solution" and "no better than Microsoft" is absolutely false. The Sun Java Desktop is essentially Suse Linux with the latest version of GNOME desktop and Evolution and the latest J2SE environment included. All free, both as in beer and as in speech. All open source. Most certainly NOT a proprietary solution. Since I have the know-how, I could put this exact desktop system together for nothing, and it would work exactly like Sun's offering. The Sun Java Desktop system in Wal-Mart is aimed at people like my mom. But that doesn't make it proprietary. I can still add all of the various opensource libraries and programs to it as if it were just a stock Suse or RedHat or Debian install.
This so-called IT manager keeps Java off his desktop because it crashes the system. This is a blatant lie. As Java runs in it's own sandbox, if a Java program crashes, it cannot possibly take down a system. I have only seen this happen when using the Java Native Interface, which is RARELY used by most Java desktop applications. But saying that also seems to indicate that the desktop it self is unstable and written in Java. Guess what? Calling it the 'Java Desktop System' is a marketing ploy by Sun for this because it goes along with it's Java Enterprise System (which does use quite a bit of Java and certainly doesn't "crash the system"). The Java Desktop Sustem is written 99% in C with an embedded JVM so you can run various Java - based desktop programs as if they were native. This is exactly what Apple does on the Mac OSX. And Sun already donates many of their projects and code to open source projects (like Open Office, the free version of Star Office). So I guess then Sun does have the interests of it's customers in mind!
These errors are GLARING for developer and managers that actually work with Java and Linux/Unix on a daily basis. Actually, it's GLARING for anybody that works in IT - most of the
The so-called IT manager, is not in fact a manager. He's one of your hacks - you needed a bit of controversy so you got someone to say this, and used the anonymity to cover it up. Or worse, he's a shill for Microsoft, trying to discredit what is clearly a technological and marketing threat to Microsoft's supremacy on the desktop. The whole section essentially says "Why bother, it's unstable, it's not free. I 'm a professional at this and I wouldn't do it so you shouldn't too." and it's aimed at people who wouldn't know better - people who shop at Wal-Mart. So, did you check this guy's allegations with other "IT Managers"? Did you check his background and credentials? Is that why he would prefer not to be named - because he really doesn't know what he's talking about. I suspect he's the "IT manager" (read office administrator) at your office, so he knows about Windows but nothing else.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Hey, I would like to see Linux on the desktop do well, but Sun showing up with a half assed makeover of Gnome isn't going to start a revolution. Lindows hasn't changed the world either, and they've been in Wal*Mart for a while now. Most Wal*Marts I've been in don't even stock PCs.
"Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
The only use java desktop could possible have, is if you own a sun workstation and your stuck with CDE and compiling gnome by source is too much of a pain.
Unless there is some other features in Sun's version that I am not aware of, but other then that its a waste of money for something they already have.
http://saveie6.com/
I would like to see GNU/Linux to become a more powerful platform and by a more powerful platform I mean a platform that provides the user with a pleasant experience. Now, to provide a pleasant experience a platform must give the user a choice - a choice of applications that exist for the platform is a step in the right direction. However, GNU/Linux is not such a platform yet. If it were, it would have been embraced by the masses already and it is not. There are a few things that GNU/Linux system is lacking and one of the more important lacking components is a convenient tool that allows a novice create his/her own software for the platform, software that easily manipulates data imported from multiple sources and allows to create graphical interfaces to that data. In the Microsoft this functionality is provided by such a ubiquitous tool as Visual Basic. In the Free Software world there are many tools that are extremely powerful but none of them have the same kind of momentum that Visual Basic delivers on Microsoft platform.
To answer the question- "What can be the VB for Free Software?" we need to look at the kind of problems that will have to be solved by this tool. The problems solved by VB are of many kinds, but for the general public VB provides the bridge that closes the gap between a user and a multitude of small problems that the user wants to solve. Of-course it is possible to just create a VB IDE for FS platforms but I believe there is a more interesting solution to this problem and it is Java. Just like VB, Java runs in a virtual machine, so the user will never really have direct access to any hardware resources, but an abstract layer of JVM can provide a nice buffer between the user and the hardware and at the same time Java will always behave in the same way on multiple other platforms, including Windows. Java has thousands of convenience libraries, there is enough Free Software written for Java that can be integrated into an IDE. However there is a big problem with the language itself - it is not Free.
Sun allows anyone to use Java for free but nobody can modify the language itself except for Sun. In order for Java to become for Free Software and Gnu/Linux what VB became for Microsoft, Java has to be Freed and put out under the GPL. There is also probably a good business sense in it for the Sun Microsystems as well - their language suddenly becomes the language of choice for millions and thousands will work on improving the language, the virtual machine, the compiler etc. In this case Sun will stay in a position that Linus finds himself in - they become the gate-keepers for the vanilla Java tree, but Java will branch and will become much more spread than it is right now. Sun can capitalize on that by providing more Java based solutions and services.
Now it is likely that Sun management will not agree to the change of their Java's status, however, if there was an immediately profitable reason for them to do this, they just may turn around and start thinking about it. A reason that is profitable could be a large sum of cash available to them upon releasing Java under the GPL. Where could this money come from? These money could be collected by the FS and OS supporters, the developers and the users who would like to see more momentum in the GNU/Linux movement towards a successful (wide spread) desktop solution. I suppose no one will seriously object to have one more powerful tool in their Free Software tool-bag. Java can be this tool and it can be just the thing needed to tip the scales over towards quick appearance of a useful and a popular GNU/Linux desktop.
You can't handle the truth.
The primary application for ANY consumer computer is as likely to be entertainment software as it is wordprocessing and web surfing.
I hear this business about how "Joe User really only wants to word process, surf the web and do email" all the time around here. I think this assumption is just plain wrong. If I'm wrong, I'd certainly like to see some proof. As it is, there's a string of failed ventures that seem to back me up. The most sucessful of these I can think of is WebTV -- need I say more?
Anecdotaly, even among all the non-techies I know, NOBODY who would buy this if informed of the limited application software and hardware available. Even if these people only use the box for email, they almost certainly have family members who will want to do a bit more. Might be Unreal Tournament, might be a geneaology program.
Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
It would do far better if actually provided what consumers want. Stuff such as user friendliness, task centric help, easy managability, multimedia, click N run drivers, games, etc. As a power user, I wouldn't mind some of those things either. MS manages to target power users and home users and I don't see any technical reason that Linux couldn't either.
Unfortunately Linux in its current incarnation is like a cake baked to resemble a dog turd. Consumers aren't going to bother with it even if you insist its actually made of delicious marzipan.
It's too bad that Macs aren't any cheaper. It seems that they would flourish better with the market that these computers will be reaching while providing the users with a system that's more suited to their digital cameras, printers, etc. that they just want to work out of the box.
Life today. Uncertainty tomorrow.
A yearly subscription fee???
Taken from the sun.com:
Pricing
Q.
How much does Java Desktop System sell for?
A.
There are two available pricing options for Java Desktop System:
$100 / desktop / year. An OEM volume tier pricing schedule is also available.
$50 / employee / year for Sun Java Enterprise System customers.
A special promotion is also planned that reduces by 50% the first year price of either of the above two options. This promotion is in effect until June 2, 2004. See:
How to Buy.
Q.
Why would I purchase a per desktop license at $100 when the per employee license is available at only $50?
A.
The per employee pricing is available only if you purchase the software for all employees of your company. If only some employees will use the Java Desktop System, it may be more economical to purchase per desktop licenses.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Sun has not addressed any of the major issues facing Linux and the home user. Say what you like about M$, they do make a hell of a desktop for Joe Six-pack. Consider the first time Joe Six-pack installs some software and it doesn't show up in his menu... That will be the end of JDS for the average home user, the only good point being that as long as Sun sells it as JDS, the Linux community might at some later date reclaim that user, when the needed work has been done.
And that is only one trivial example of a real world ordniary user issue. Literally thousands exist, each of which has the potential to be a show-stopper for some portion of the home user base.
Linux has a long way to go before it is ready for prime time on the home front. Microsoft has queered that pitch permanently. As long as Linux does not provide, internal to the desktop environment itself, the kind of handholding help system that M$ users have at their disposal, why would Joe Six-pack switch?
All of "our" arguments about the superiority of security, etc. fall on deaf ears if folk can't use it. The home user is the guy who uses his CD drive as a cupholder people. Does anyone think Linux is ready to deal with that level of incompetence? But that is the market Sun is going after? Does anyone else see the problem there?
Now everyone restrain yourself before posting your favorite Linux rhetoric in reply. Your elegantly crafted arguments, and the sublime supremacy of your arguments (and mine) are all predicated on the necessity that the audience has access to the relveant information, but more importantly, can understand that information, and comprehend the implications of it. Now apply that to Joe Six-pack.
I understand the missionary urge that makes most of us want to push oour OS to the limit, but to be successful at converting the "heathens" requires more than a strong wish. Consider the Roman Catholic Church and Christmas. Christmas is a compromise, a case where accepted religious doctrine was modified in order to be able to attract, and retain converts among the pagans. That it was extremely successful is obvious, that it fundamentally changed core aspects of Catholocism should also be obvious. I have serious concerns about the "Church of Linus" being able to accomplish the same thing.
How many of you would accept fundamental changes to Linux in order to get it widespread use in private homes?
More importantly, how many of you would accept fundamental changes you were diametrically opposed to in oder to get Linux on more home desktops?
I strongly suspect that such a fork is coming. While I won't be so naive as to suggest that the Linuxwe all know and love is going to go away, but I will suggest it will not be the Linux that could succeed in the home market.
As Catholocsim has to make some room for patently pagan beliefs in order to grow and spread, Linux may well have to make some room for heretical beliefs for the same reasons.
"Talk minus action equals nothing" - Joey Shithead, D.O.A.
"Talk minus action equals
I am currently using Slackware 9.1. The java dev is as good as vb, and one hell of alot less expensive than MS orafice VB ware! I just ./setup Open Office and it has all the java bells and whistles. To my way of thinking the latest Slackware is the best distro hands down! Just because my users have to type a blind password to login doesn't slow me down. Having to type startx is not a real hardship either.
Of course being able to have multiple logins going is great as well. No I am seriously thinking of teaching Slack to small business owners. It sure is fast, even with an older (1999) p3 450 it outruns XP and MS office hands down! I think Sun should talk to Patrick et al about releasing a java desktop together.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
I would dare say that Python is *extraordinarily* easy to get up and running, more so than Java. You can do extremely powerful things and very easy things with Python. And if you want clean cross-platform development environment, it fits well, even with GUI if you accept wxPython. I've been blown away at the ease of things when I did PyGTK, and when I wanted something that looked less out of place in Windows and that would work on OSX, I picked up wxPython and was simply amazed at how cleanly it slipped into Windows and OSX, with native widgets and all.
I know Java, and it truly does provide a far richer development environment when compared to C/C++ (well, C/C++ nearly catches up if you allow for MFC/KDE/Gnome/Cocoa/host of other libraries, but those are all platform dependent), but the syntax isn't that much easier to handle, so it isn't a good VB-killer candidate. Python syntax is extremely simple and scales well for complex tasks. I don't want to inflame perl advocates, perl is more powerful and easy for many tasks, but the syntax of python caters well to readability for learning and for the average programming tasks.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
This article does a good job of conveying WalMart's reach. Microsoft rules the desktop, but WalMart rules retail.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
As for hardware drivers, the real issue is that they cost both to develop and support, and manufacturers will need a REAL reason to spend the money, especially given the razor-slim margins on consumer PC hardware. I can't think of ANY compelling argument Sun can make in order for that to happen without FIRST having significant market share, which will be difficult without first having the hardware support. Chicken and Egg. I doubt the proliferation of Linux distro's is an issue -- a driver is a driver. It shouldn't be affected much by distro (perhaps kernel version is some cases), except maybe on the install side.
Driver support is more likely to improve as linux begins to penetrate the corporate desktop -- ultimately, this is going to be the route to the consumer desktop.
Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
WALMART CUSTOMER: Aint java whats them city folk drink in ther fancee coffee joints. Well I gots to get a JAVA computer. Its a heifer and two pigs cheaper than an Apple. I don't want that Micro-soft cause I herd bout identity theft on the 10:00 news, where the Russians bust in and steals yer numbers. I want my mo-chine to be REAL fancy though. I can buy a full inter-net computer for $299 at WAL-MART with a printer and TV screen and typewriter disk and I get 1000 free Owls(AOL). God bless America...Cheyanne, WHERES MY TV DINNER! Wheel of Fortune is on!
(fade to a small polyester flag which flaps in the breeze, a screen door slams shut next to a coon dog, on a redwood deck, connected to a trailer as a camaro being worked on in the yard revs its engine, coughs and belches black smoke.)
This to illustrate the point, its half about brand recognition to people who know very little and care even less and many will use the computer only for printing digital pictures, email and porn. It is not about usability (Microsoft anyone?), not about performance (microsoft again). The main problem will be a lack of computer games and tax software, but if it takes off, that will change soon. The real question is, will you want the white trash of America using Linux or Windows?
I'd suggest that Sun has been building something pretty serious, one careful step at a time.
In order to challenge Microsoft they need to see some other OS on PCs. On a practical level it doesn't matter what OS, as long as it's not Windows.
But as noted, it's applications that drive PC purchases, not the OS. So what has Sun done?
Purchased StarOffice, spun off OpenOffice, and this week added support for the latter. For 95% of people the Sun office suites will handle anything that they want to do, as well as saving in MS compatible formats. It may not be perfect, but it's certainly Good enough. Better than MS Works in any event.
Add Mozilla and maybe Evolution for e-mail and you've covered the bulk of most people's activities.
So Sun can offer a non-Windows OS, a non-Windows software package. Bundle the new PC with a printer and Monitor, maybe a scanner, and you have a complete package that will suit most folks. If it does these things, and maybe connects with their digital camera, then they don't care about OSs and Application names.
The only thing left is marketing. Sell a similar box to say a fraction of the population of China and your per unit costs drop fast. Fast enough that you can also sell to WalMart, make a profit, and allow them to undercut other retailers.
Sure, there will be some problems supporting software and other hardware, but It still looks to me like Sun has a good chance of starting to eat into Microsoft's market share.
Barry
Three Squirrels
Wal-Mart is the biggest retailer in the world. Wal-Mart alone could make low-cost, vendor-supported Linux computers available to almost everyone living in the continental United States. This still seems sort of hopeless-after all, consumers will still want Windows to run, well, almost all of the popular commercial software out there. After all, there isn't much commercial software, or hardware, support for Linux, right?
But that will change pretty fast once the largest retailer in the world is making Linux available to its customers. It would be a hell of a lot easier to make money from Linux software by slapping a "Wal-Mart PC Compatible" lable on the box and getting ten copies in every Wal-Mart in the USA. If Wal-Mart can succeed at selling PCs, it could even demand that software and hardware vendors support Linux to get a product onto Wal-Mart's shelves. Colleges that go all Microsoft in exchange for software discounts might have to stop requiring that students bring Windows PCs to school and use MS-Office formats for electronic submissions if half of their students realized how much money they could save by buying a Wal-Mart PC with the Java Desktop instead of a Windows PC and MS-Office.
Wal-Mart could be the catalyst for an Open-Source renaissance of sorts, bringing a shell prompts and compilers to the masses. If this report is true, and Sun can get Linux PCs on the shelves at Wal-Mart, a lot of people in Redmond are going to be really, REALLY scared.
At this point (mid to late 2004) the Linux distros, Mac OS, and *BSD will be 100% compatable with SJD software, and Adobe, Quark, Mooneshine Automation Sys, etc., will port their software to SJD/Linux, assuming it catches on. The status quo may go back to what it is now, depending on how the hardware/M$ DRM situation works out, but it looks like there is hope for 'the free world.'
Or,
one month from now Microsoft will start selling a WinXP lite edition for $15/cpu to OEMs and basically buy back their dominance.
Either way I'm sticking with Apple.
I think what they're trying to do here is set up a system with which the easiest way to get new applications is to get new Java applications through JWS.
If you haven't used JWS, go and install the plugin and try it out. A friend of mine wrote a class diagram / UML tool called The Virtual Bar Napkin. If you have JWS installed, you can hit the link on his webpage and the application is running in a few seconds.
He didn't have to write an installer, or deal with a page saying "for this version, click here, for that version, click there".
And to clarify, It is not an applet. It's an application, running in its own window, etc. Furthermore, it is actually installed on your system, and you can access it later through the regular menu system (on windows) without having to be connected to the net. Upgrading to new versions is just as trivial.
JWS is a great example of the promise of Java. Write your client application, distribute it seamlessly, update it in near real time, and avoid all the nonsense with servlets and sessions and HTML + javascript web interface nightmare.
So long as this gets us closer to that, I'm interested.
-Zipwow
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
These things aren't being sold in Wal-Mart stores. They're only available online.
Maybe the target market is businesses that want to run Sun JD (or other Linux distro) and aren't big enough to get Dell to sell them PC's without Windows.
There are enough *real* Linux customers out there that are not being served by the majors. Could this be Wal-Mart's way of going after Dell in the small business market that they've owned for too long now?
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Maybe not! Check this presentation out from the sun website.. It demos their new Project "Looking Glass" for desktops. It looks amazing!!! Wonder when they will package it on the desktop systems. This sure looks compelling enough for the average user..
Hell, even my ol' Windows 98 compaq armada runs Java fine.
Wow, I didn't even know Win98 could do clustering.