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Microsoft Retires Windows 98

Posted by michael on from the porch-and-rocking-chair dept.

prostoalex writes "Complying with the court requirement related to Sun-Microsoft lawsuit over Java, Microsoft is retiring Windows 98, SQL Server 7, Office XP Developer Edition and some other products."

73 of 697 comments (clear)

  1. So? by dolo666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Windows 98? But they are on XP now...
    So I guess it's no big deal. How does this harm Microsoft? Win98 is (was) a nice and stable gaming platform, but XP is very stable for gaming too. This counts as a win on the record, but it's still too little too late, imho. Sun should be awarded more rights over *current* and *future* Microsoft products, as a penalty. This could get interesting!

    1. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Did you just refer to Win98 as "stable?" Good god, you're delusional.

    2. Re:So? by Frymaster · · Score: 5, Insightful
      How does this harm Microsoft?

      actually, it helps them. there are millions of administrative assistants and other corporate flunkies who have been happily using win 98 for years.

      now that end of life is officially declared, the it deaprtmnt will probably force upgrades on all those people - and, of course, pay the necessary licensing fees to redmond.

      microsoft: taking a bad ruling and turning it into a cash cow. again.

      --

      2 1337 4 u!

    3. Re:So? by Clay+Pigeon+-TPF-VS- · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I got windows 98 to run for weeks at a time on my machine. Its not stable compared to Linux, but it is stable compared to its predecesor, windows 95.

      --
      Viral software licensing is not freedom, it is in fact GNU/Socialism.
    4. Re:So? by bloodrose · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cash cow yes bad ruling far from it. Windows 98 was a decent platform for those who didnt want to bother about more advanced topics, but it as many things slowly loose their appeal to support after a while as well as the invention of "newer" technologies, but honestly who reaps the benefit of this "Cash Cow". Not just Redmond. Usually when a peice of software (os or otherwise) is "retired" supporting companies (ISP's, repair shops, etc...) lag behind about a year or more before declaring that they will not support it. For example, this year an ISP I worked for finally decided not to support Win 95 anymore. The repair shops that are in town that still support these "older" technologies will reap the benefits in that users who first turned to microsoft will turn to them instead before even considering to upgrade.

    5. Re:So? by Boing · · Score: 4, Funny
      I got windows 98 to run for weeks at a time

      I guess your screensaver was pretty busy...

      Wait, what the hell am I saying, Windows 98 wouldn't be able to run a screensaver without crashing for weeks at a time.

    6. Re:So? by jonfelder · · Score: 5, Funny

      Uptime typically refers to how long the machine can stay on without rebooting, not how long you keep the operating system on there without reinstalling.

      Granted keeping 98 on there for weeks without a reinstall is an admirable feat.

    7. Re:So? by Ray+Radlein · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Windows 98SE is still the baseline gaming platform for Windows gaming, and certainly represented a local maximum in stability -- it is worlds more stable than its predecessors (Win95 and 98 original), and it is also more stable than its immediate successor, WinME. And while the NT branch of the family was sometimes more stable than 98SE (and sometimes not), not until XP has game support come anywhere near being equal to that of 98SE.

      98SE is, of course, far from perfect, but I, for one, still use it (don't worry, though -- I dual boot with Red Hat). When my mother-in-law got a new computer with XP on it, I had to spend a couple of weeks hacking and slashing away at its bells and whistles (and security holes and spyware) before it would run acceptably.

      XP also suffers from the classic Microsoft "your OS knows what's best for you, and you'd better like it" syndrome. On the other hand, after five years, most of the operational innards of Win98 have been well mapped by generations of hardy explorers, and there are plenty of tools available for tweaking it just so.

      Obviously, Win98SE is not the greatest OS of all time; but, in terms of relative stability combined with widespread application compatability, it is certainly the most successful OS Microsoft has ever produced.

      I suppose you could look at it as being similar to the late 19th century British cavalry saber -- a form which realized its ideal expression at the same time as it became obsolete.

    8. Re:So? by Stonan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      WIN98SE: stable surfing the 'net & playing games as well as d/l via WinMX or Bit Torrent. I've had it running smoothly for 5-8 days at a time.

      WINXP: stable for gaming? You're the one who's delusional.

      I will probably goto Mandrake. I like Linux (been using PCs since 1982) I have a copy of the Windows eXtortion Program (pro edition). I might install it but I have it at work so there's no real point.

      I did all my years of networks & servers in the 80s and early 90s. All i want out of my home computer is entertainment (surf the 'net and GAMES GAMES GAMES).

      The biggest headache I have about XP is that there isn't an Expert Mode. I absolutely HATE having to waste my time going the baby steps that are there to help inexperienced users (i understand some people need this) but hinder those of us that know what they're doing.

      As for stablility: Win2000. I haven't used it much but out of 30-40 techs & net admins that I've talked to, they all seem to agree on this...

      --
      The GEEK shall inherit the earth...
    9. Re:So? by Zerbey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I regularly got 98 to run for 4 months at a time before finally it simply stopped responding requiring a reboot. I used it at work every day, lots of word processing, spreadsheets, some graphic design, web browsing of course. Played Quake after hours too.

      Comparison: My record uptime on an XP box is 3 weeks (similar usage). NT/2000 servers at my work stay up for months at a time.

      Sure it doesn't beat my Linux boxes which have stayed up for years at a time, but it's no where near the "crashing all the time" reports that I've read.

      Windows Me on the other hand....

    10. Re:So? by The+Clockwork+Troll · · Score: 4, Funny

      Apparently Microsoft has succeeded in making people feel their systems are stable as long as they don't need to be reformatted frequently?

      --

      There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
    11. Re:So? by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 3, Funny
      You are full of crap. I was able to run Win98 for 2 years without a reformat,

      Oh, sorry. My mistake.

      I thought you were talking about running Win-98 for weeks without a reboot.

      silly comment of the minute:
      "I've been booting my Linux box daily for the last year. The computer's fine, but my shoe's starting to wear out."

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  2. ding, dong... by rokzy · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...the witch is dead

  3. Upgrade by Cavalkaf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, Microsoft is forcing everyone that wants tech support to pay another $500 to upgrade, and still get no source code....

    1. Re:Upgrade by king-manic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Realistically, only about 0.1% of *nix users ever even think about touching kernel source. For windows users it's be down to about 0.0001% that even know what the kernel is. So the source would be about as useful as a 4000 page manual written in Aramaic, translated from the original babalonian through french then swedish and finally chinese.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    2. Re:Upgrade by neuroticia · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ...but what about those of us who speak Aramic?

      The point is that it's there for those inclined to see, to do, to touch, and to modify. And it makes all the difference.

      -Sara

    3. Re:Upgrade by Alan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But they can. No joe user would dwelve into kernel editing, but with linux a developer can, without having to pay $1000s to microsoft. In fact, the tools required to edit the kernel come with the linux distribution. Just because it's only 0.000000000001% of the users doesn't mean that it's still not a good thing.

      What if MS released the windows 98 source code under the GPL or a BSD or Apache style license? Probably that 0.000000000001% of developers who care enough will take it, fix some of the annoying bugs and features in it and create a windows 99 release that can be used by anyone to patch windows98 and create a useable free version (think dr-dos being released and now used as a minimul dos environment by various companies, ie: apple's virtual pc uses it as a base dos install).

      Maybe that wouldn't happen, maybe it would. Without he code being available, it *can't*.

    4. Re:Upgrade by glenrm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would take that a step further and say what about a useful modification that one of these 0.0001% make that everybody else starts using. Only a few people starting making the MOD to Half-Life called Counter Strike yet it is more popular than the original.

      --
      Onward to the Aether Sphere!
    5. Re:Upgrade by lightsaber1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's not Microsoft's business practice and probably never will be. Just because we like the idea of open source, doesn't mean everybody does. Microsoft can make more money by hiding its source and not allowing modification, so they can pay their developers more, and so on and so on. Just let it be. Those that prefer the closed source model can go there and the rest can go open source...who says everything has to use the same model? It's a free market society (in North America at least), and there are no laws against it.

    6. Re:Upgrade by pizzaman100 · · Score: 4, Funny
      ...but what about those of us who speak Aramic?

      You must really be looking forward to watching "The Passion". :)

    7. Re:Upgrade by AsparagusChallenge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What if MS released the windows 98 source code under the GPL or a BSD or Apache style license? Probably that 0.000000000001% of developers who care enough will take it, fix some of the annoying bugs and features in it and create a windows 99 release

      You silly, it would be used to create libwin32.so.98 and some kernel modules, and native windows applications would run about anywhere.

    8. Re:Upgrade by symbolic · · Score: 3, Informative

      You don't ask KFC to reveal their "seven herbs and spices" do you?

      This isn't even a fair comparison. If I don't like KFC, for whatever reason, my decision to go somewhere else (or even make my own) will be virtually without cost. Why? Because chicken isn't closed-source. If I decide I don't like Microsoft, I always have to weigh my options against the very real cost of installing and learning a new OS, converting my old documents, potential compatibility issues, etc. Why? Because Microsoft is closed-source, and is often, by design, incompatible with other potential options.

  4. hurrah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Best news since 1998!!!

  5. Dys damnlexia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I read that as "Microsoft Retries Windows 98" and I thought, "Didn't they learn the first time around?"

  6. Fact: Windows 98 is dying by cpeterso · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fact: Windows 98 is dying

    It is common knowledge that Windows 98 is dying. Everyone knows that ever hapless Windows 98 is mired in an irrecoverable and mortifying tangle of fatal trouble. It is perhaps anybody's guess as to which Windows 98 is the worst off of an admittedly suffering Windows 98 community. The numbers continue to decline for Windows but Windows 98 may be hurting the most. Look at the numbers. The erosion of user base for FreeBSD continues in a head spinning downward spiral.

    All major marketing surveys show that Windows 98 has steadily declined in market share. Windows 98 is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Windows 98 is to survive at all it will be among hobbyist dilettante dabblers. In truth, for all practical purposes Windows 98 is already dead. It is a dead man walking.

    Fact: Windows 98 is dying

    --
    cpeterso
    1. Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I know this was meant as a joke but Windows 98 was stillborn. I sucked on day one and it sucks today. Problem is I volunteer at my church to maintain their network and software and until we can convince the pastor to upgrade, I'll have to continue to support it.

      We wouldn't bother upgrading because they will be moving to a new building with a new network and everything two years, but the fact of the matter is that you can't set up a Windows 98 network, work through all the pain and pathetic Microsoft crap and then leave it alone once it works because it never stays working for long.

      Microsoft may be abandoning the product but the fact of the matter is that they couldn't be bothered to make it not suck in the first place and there will be millions of people saddled with support this sorry piece of crap whether MS supports it or not.

      If we were talking about Windows 2000 it would be a different story because Win2k was and continues to be a viable and stable platform. In fact, with the NT line, there hasn't been compelling reasons to upgrade for about 5 years except for support of new hardware. That's the problem... when you actually do something right, you lose the upgrade track because people are actually satisfied.

      That's why MS never cared about the DOS branch of their OS's. They knew they would sell bazillions of copies, but when called on the carpet for its crappy quality, they could just point to the NT branch.

      Now that those branches have merged, I guess they have to start making all their OS's suck, or run the risk of having too many satisfied customers.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    2. Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying by T-Ranger · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Two years running an unsupported OS is a very long time. If your network is connected to the internet it is a death sentence. It is almost guarenteed that in two years someone will find an exploit, and exploit you specificly.

      As a matter of cost, having computer upgrades tied to building upgrades for an orgnization which Im sure has finite amounts of money is a Bad Thing. Either get your new hardware and licenses now, or after the new building: spread the costs around. Not for 30 years has physcially moving computers been a major cost concern. Computers are resonably portable. New computers and new buildings are sepearate issues.

  7. Why is this news? by Lane.exe · · Score: 5, Funny
    In other news, Windows 3.1, long the holdout of solitaire, minesweeper and QBASIC enthusiasts the world over, has been retired by Microsoft.

    --
    IAALS.
    1. Re:Why is this news? by nate1138 · · Score: 4, Funny

      You forgot about BOB. From the press release:

      Microsoft BOB, after many years on top as the premier productivity assistant, is set to be retired. A Microsoft spokesman said: "We deeply regret the decision to end the life of such a successful product. However, a new breed of assistants, led by our popular 'Clippy' mascot will continue our fine tradition of assistive software." In response, user groups the world over have petitioned Microsoft to open-source BOB.

      --
      Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
    2. Re:Why is this news? by R2.0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Boss gets a new laptop, has Win2k on it. 1st question: "Where are the games?"

      Like an idiot, I find them on his machine and drag them to his desktop.

      Now it's either freestyle, porn, or travel reservations - I don't know that he's even opened any other applications, much less done any work.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
  8. Truly Sad..... by GeneralEmergency · · Score: 4, Insightful



    Ironically, Win98se has been Microsoft's most secure operating system for the last two years!

    Kuh-Bum-Boomp!
    Thank you, I'll be here all week.

    --
    "A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
    GeneralEmergency
    1. Re:Truly Sad..... by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Informative
      > Ironically, Win98se has been Microsoft's most secure operating system for the last two years!

      Flamebait?

      A Win98SE box runs no services. No DCOM, no RPC, no IIS, no "Remote Support", no MSN. With a couple of tweaks to rebind (or unbind) NetBIOS, it listens on no ports.

      Use a third-party email client and a third-party browser to avoid the Outleak/IE holes, and the poster's right. For a clued-in user (i.e. someone smart enough not to click on every stupid attachment some bozo mails him), Win98SE is more secure than XP.

      Is Win98 a good operating system? Hell no. It's a glorified DOS shell. Get your trojan running anywhere on that machine, and j00 0wn t3h b0x. But in order for that to happen, the end user pretty much has to cooperate.

    2. Re:Truly Sad..... by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Insightful
      > Seriously, no trolling, I mean it. I made the switch from Windows to Linux after seeing ME being a step back from 98 and XP being not much better. Now I know why I end up in an argument with every other web designer in the group!

      While we're at it - Win9x was much more recoverable than NT/XP/2K. If an XP box dies on boot due to a fux0r3d registry, you reinstall because the "recovery console" doesn't actually let you run any executables that might help you "recover".

      Win9x has a corrupt registry? No problem! Boot to DOS off a floppy. Add a line to MSDOS.SYS that that says BootGUI=0. Poke around in C:\WINDOWS\SYSBCKUP and find the last 4-5 versions of the registry. Extract somewhere safe, use ATTRIB to deprotect the corrupt registry, and overwrite.

      CHKDSK/SCANDISK not cooperating? No problem in 9x. Boot to DOS and image the drive with Ghost before CHKDSK can corrupt anything.

      Some twit's stupid installer overwrites MSVCRT.DLL with a borked version that breaks half your other applications? On XP, you're screwed - can't overwrite it 'cuz it's always in use. On 9x, boot to DOS and overwrite it yourself with a known "good" version. The same techniques apply to trivially expunge MS Outleak Excess and other borkware.

      In this context, 9x is less secure than XP per se, but when the "security" you're trying to break is keeping you from manipulating files on your own bloody hard drive, sometimes that's a Good Thing.

      Somewhere between NT and Longhorn, single-user machines that ran Microsoft operating systems ceased to be Your Computers and became Bill's Computers. Because it was based on DOS, a 98SE box is always going to be Your Computer.

    3. Re:Truly Sad..... by owlstead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yup, this is only too true. Using Windows 98 does not contain any risks. Unfortunately, whithout any firewalling, with NetBIOS enabled by default on all adapters, with a broken TCP/IP stack (and a completely bunk dial up networking) etc. I would be very hard pressed to recommend it as low end internet operating system.

      Furthermore, it would be easy to use XP or Windows 2000 with the firewall enabled. That would be as safe (or safer) than using the Windows 98 operating system. IE and Outlook are just disasters waiting to happen (on your system, on the internet they are already happening) so using third party browser and email client is to be recommended in all circumstances.

      The only thing worse than using Windows 98 may be Windows ME, but they fixed some serious dial up issues in that operating system, blurring the choice a bit.

    4. Re:Truly Sad..... by Schmucky+The+Cat · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Registry corruption and you need a DOS floppy?

      Hello LAST KNOWN GOOD CONFIGURATION.

      I mean, it even detects failed boots and offers you the last known good config option automatically.

      And any DLL necessary for booting is always in \dllcache, so some twit's stupid installer can't overwrite it.

      You are either making stuff up or making your life more difficult than it needs to be.

  9. Hollow victory by cybrchrst · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only thing this means is that people that still have their Packard Bells and Dells and the such with Windows 98 OEM copies are not going to be able to do Windows Updates and are basically going to have to upgrade to another PC if they want support. Any guess as to what OS their next PC is going to run?

    --
    -=*(CC)*=-
    1. Re:Hollow victory by bdigit · · Score: 3, Funny

      Windows XP?

  10. Just wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...one day they'll be back. Trying to coax 98 out of retirement for 1 more mission. At first, 98 will be adament that he is retired. But then, they will tell him about an evil so great...

  11. Nice way of spinning it by gilesjuk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Blame Sun for forcing you to retire a product. They would have retired Win98 by now anyway. It's over five years old.

  12. for better? or for worse? by musikit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    although i think it's for the better. get bad code out of public hands. a couple of reasons why i think it's a bad idea

    1. force people to upgrade
    1.1 forces people to spend money on something they may not need
    1.2 forces people to use that windows activation thing
    2. security. no more patches for win98. this means that the small group of people with win98 are always going to be vulnerable to internet viruses. Upgrade you say? what if you can't afford it?

    i'm sure there are tons more reasons. in fact i'd like to heard more below but these are the two things that worry me because i have very little money and family/friends still using 98.

    1. Re:for better? or for worse? by Jason1729 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To get bad code out of public hands, they have to replace it with better code. This will just replace bad code with even worse code (XP is worse because it has more DRM).

      The "activation thing" is a cripping feature. I can't accept that EULA in good faith, so I can't use XP at all (imo pirating XP would be sinking to MS's level). This just pushes me one step closer to a mac. I'm currently running win98 and win2k. The security issue is the major concern; now I can't use win98 on an important machine anymore.

      Jason
      ProfQuotes

    2. Re:for better? or for worse? by SEE · · Score: 3, Informative

      If Win98 were open-sourced, it would be a matter of months before enough chunks were absorbed into WINE to make its Win32 support perfect.

      Similarly, tweaking DOSEMU and modifying Win98 (a la the modified Windows 3.1 of Win-OS/2, which can run in DOSEMU) would be fairly easy, since Win98 is architecturally so similar to DOS plus Win 3.1's 386 enhanced mode.

      Mainstream OSS talent would be diverted into those projects and the improving Win98 projects, sure. But mainstream computer dollars would be lost by Microsoft to both a Linux that can run Win32 programs as well as XP, and a "Winux" that is Linux to the hardware and power users but modified and improved Win98 to the ordinary user and his software. (In the latter case, BSODs would still happen, but they'd cause the underlying Linux to quick-load another Windows session.)

      I expect "Winux" would quickly become the favorite OS of computer makers; free and looks just like the familar Windows environment. Microsoft would lose hundreds of millions.

  13. Heh.. you left a 'FreeBSD' in there ;) by Shalome · · Score: 4, Funny

    ;) Proofreading is your friend.

    --
    Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
  14. Still quite a few WIn 98 boxes out there by ducomputergeek · · Score: 5, Interesting
    My father is still using 98. In fact he just had to reinstall everything after a virus. All he does is use it to check his stocks, email, and minor web surfing. I can't think of any good reason to spend the money upgrading his 400Mhz K6-2.

    I walked him through the process and told him that Win 98 support was going out the window at year's end. This isn't the first time this story has graced /.. He didn't seem to care and has no plans to upgrade until the hardware gives out and the harddrive fails or something like that.

    Then he's buying a mac...

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  15. Uhh.... by jetkust · · Score: 5, Funny

    Let's look on the bright side, Windows ME is still in circulation.

    1. Re:Uhh.... by irokitt · · Score: 5, Funny

      Either you have never tried your hand at tech support (formal or informal) or you have a sick sense of humor. Don't joke about 'ME, man.

      --
      If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
  16. Available vs. Supported... by M.C.+Hampster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Note that this says nothing about support for these products. Microsoft is going to stop distributing these products to comply with the court order, not support them. It really is two different issues.

    Now, since some of these products aren't even sold anymore, the only reason this was noticed was because of the notice on MSDN, which is a place you could get these products if you had a subscription.

    --
    Forget the whales - save the babies.
  17. Long life to win98 by armando_wall · · Score: 5, Funny

    Long life to an OS which filled my life with the joy of rebooting, freezing and hardware failure blue screens (since the day of its presentation).

    It will be missed! :'-(

  18. And what will MS do? by Progman3K · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Simple,
    They'll use retiring all those products to move people to a newer version of Windows, which will arguably be EVEN HARDER for users to migrate away from!

    Every time Microsoft is sentenced to a "penalty" they find some way of using it to their advantage.

    No reason why this will be any different.

    --
    I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
  19. Re:Good, now retire IE5 by larsoncc · · Score: 4, Informative

    IE 5.X is part of this forced retirement.

    --
    Video Game News, FAQs, etc
  20. this is our chance as well by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Look, most people are going to have to upgrade there hardware for the latest version of XP.
    We need to take advantage of this, and convince people to get Linux and give it a try.

    Tell them, if they like it and it does what you
    need, then they won't have to upgrade.

    But if it doesn't do what you need, they where going to have to upgrade anyways, right?

    The Linux community does not get many opportunities like this. lets use it.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  21. Fortunately ... by IPFreely · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... Microsoft is not retiring Win98 SE, only versions of Win98 prior to SE. See this.

    --
    There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
  22. No, it does not include Win98 SE by leerpm · · Score: 4, Informative
    In the original full posting, they give the full list of all products being retired:

    Due to a settlement agreement reached in January 2001, the following products are being phased out and will no longer available to customers through MSDN Subscriber Downloads or other channels at Microsoft. These products will be removed from MSDN Subscriber Downloads as of December 15th, 2003.

    Office XP Developer
    Visio 2000
    BackOffice Server 2000
    Office 2000 Developer
    Office 2000 Tools
    Office 2000 Multilingual
    Office 2000 Premium SR-1
    Office 2000 Service Pack 2
    Outlook 2000
    Project 2000
    SQL Server 7
    SQL Server 7 Service Pack 3
    Embedded Visual Tools 3.0
    Visual Studio 6 MSDE
    IE 5.5
    MapPoint 2002
    Visual Studio 6.0 SP3 and SP5
    Windows 98
    Windows 98 Y2K
    Windows 98 Resource Kit
    Windows 98 SP1 (all win98 except SE)
    Windows NT 4.0
    ISA Server 2000
    Visual Basic for (Alpha Systems)

    The following product will be updated with Java-compliant versions before the 12/31/03 deadline: Office XP Professional with FrontPage
    Publisher 2002
    Windows NT 4.0
    Small Business Server 2000

    1. Re:No, it does not include Win98 SE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, how exactly does the Sun Case impact

      Office XP Developer
      Visio 2000
      BackOffice Server 2000
      Office 2000 Developer
      Office 2000 Tools
      Office 2000 Multilingual
      Office 2000 Premium SR-1
      Office 2000 Service Pack 2
      Outlook 2000
      Project 2000
      Are they saying the JVM is in all these products ?

      Most likely it is they want to force people to upgrade to the latest products.

      I wont even contemplate how SQL server impinges on JVM

      I guess I am in the cynical camp and see this as a marketting ploy to force people to upgrade and endure licensing 6.0

  23. Passive Aggressive Legal/PR Strategy by 4of12 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Compliance with court orders to remove the polluted versions of JVM does not require that those entire product lines be discontinued.

    However, it is in Microsoft's business interest to push users of those products into upgrading to newer Microsoft products, for which they'll gain license revenue AND lower support costs associated with discontinuing support for those old products.

    And, it is in MSFT's public relations interests to deflect blame for this action away from themselves and upon enemy Sun and its Java legal action.

    Exactly the same red-herring strategy is being used to hold up class action settlements in California and to blame it on Lindows.

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  24. Re:Good, now retire IE5 by larsoncc · · Score: 4, Informative

    Full list of retired products, taken from MSDN board...

    > Office XP Developer
    > Visio 2000
    > BackOffice Server 2000
    > Office 2000 Developer
    > Office 2000 Tools
    > Office 2000 Multilingual
    > Office 2000 Premium SR-1
    > Office 2000 Service Pack 2
    > Outlook 2000
    > Project 2000
    > SQL Server 7
    > SQL Server 7 Service Pack 3
    > Embedded Visual Tools 3.0
    > Visual Studio 6 MSDE
    > IE 5.5
    > MapPoint 2002
    > Visual Studio 6.0 SP3 and SP5
    > Windows 98
    > Windows 98 Y2K
    > Windows 98 Resource Kit
    > Windows 98 SP1 (all win98 except SE)
    > Windows NT 4.0 (Terminal Server and Option Pack)
    > ISA Server 2000
    > Visual Basic for (Alpha Systems)
    >
    > The following products will be updated to versions that do not contain the
    > Microsoft Virtual Machine:
    >
    > Office XP Professional with FrontPage
    > Publisher 2002
    > Windows NT 4.0 (Workstation, Server, Enterprise Server)
    > Small Business Server 2000

    --
    Video Game News, FAQs, etc
  25. Noooo... by bunhed · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who are we going to call for support of our office machi... oh... right... we never did get any support did we...

  26. Win98 is still popular by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    According to Google, Windows 98 is the second most used operating system of the world. It had 30% market share of all web users at September.

    Source:
    http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.h tml

  27. Others Should be able to legally support it then. by Linus+Sixpack · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When the car manufacturors stopped making older cars a whole industry sprang up supporting older models. The Car companies had at first said to the consumer -- upgrade its not supported.

    Car part companies won a major legal win where they were allowed to make parts, against the wishes of the car manufacturers because there was an over-riding consumer interest.

    At what point must the publishers of a de-facto standard publish its source code to allow others to help the userbase when they choose not to?

  28. That make me wonder about Windows TCO by xutopia · · Score: 3, Interesting
    most of the research (mostly MS funded FUD) is done on deployment and many show that OSS has a similar if not higher TCO because of factors X, Y and Z.

    I wonder if any of those TCO papers discuss what it costs to upgrade in the next ten years because MS decides to put something in their software to make you upgrade.

  29. /not/ court-ordered by dewdrops · · Score: 3, Informative

    In spite of what MSNBC says (nice job moderators; linking to a story written by an obivously biased news source...), the court order doesn't require MS to stop distributing these products. The court order says that MS has to ship Windows with a Java VM (and not the MS "Java" VM which is not really Java). They've known this was coming for years; they could've updated the products to use a real JVM (as they did with many other products/verions), but, instead decided to stop distributing these old products. Blaming the court order is ridiculous.

  30. Too bad... by Beek · · Score: 3, Funny

    It was the best thing to happen to Linux.

  31. Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the by TALlama · · Score: 5, Funny

    Alright, you can go ahead and make your millions supporting Win98. But here's a few less painful ways to make a living:

    1) Break your own legs in front of audiences. Every night.
    2) Test new versions of salt and its ability to make paper cuts hurt.
    3) Test the newest Windows UIs until your eyes bleed. Part time only; no one could do an eight-hour day.
    4) Try to get Mobsters to pay protection money.
    5) Become a mercenary and invade China. Alone.
    6) Do an undercover report on how to get out of a Mexican Prison by doing so first hand.

    Good luck!

    --

    - The Amazina Llama

  32. Truly an American Icon by ENOENT · · Score: 4, Funny

    Specifically, an ugly 2D icon that makes Mac users howl with laughter.

    --
    That's "Mr. Soulless Automaton" to you, Bub.
  33. their lips moved by twitter · · Score: 3, Insightful
    They retired them because they did not want to get them into compliance and spend the resources on those packages.

    Right, they had no intentions of improving or modifying W98SE. In fact, new sales must be so low it was time to shoot it anyway. So nice of them to blame Sun for what they obviously indended from the start. It's so much better than saying that 98 simply sucked, like they said about 95 and 3.1 and you get the picture. Oh wait, they did say that 98 sucks.

    As with most MS settlements, they win even when they lose.

    As with most Microsoft statements, it was a lie even when partially factual.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  34. Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the by gellenburg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well...

    You actually own the car.

    You don't own Win98. It's licensed to you by M$.

    As the owner of my car, it's my choice what parts I want to be in it (within reason of course).

    As the owner of Win98, it's their choice whether they want to offer support.

    Go FreeBSD.

  35. It doesn't force upgrades. by BoomerSooner · · Score: 4, Informative
    You can still use your product, MS is just shelving the ability for you to get it. This was on the MSDN site a while ago. Here's the text:

    Subscriber Download content will be retired on December 23rd
    Due to a settlement agreement reached in January 2001, Microsoft is phasing out the Microsoft Virtual Machine from its products. As of 12:01 AM Pacific Time December 23rd, 2003, we will phase out several product families, and remove the Microsoft Virtual Machine from others. The major product families that will no longer be available are:

    BackOffice Server 2000
    MapPoint 2002
    Office 2000 Suite and Products
    Office XP Developer
    SQL Server 7.0
    Windows 98

    Although these products will no longer be available for distribution from Microsoft, they can still be used in accordance with the terms of your MSDN Subscription license agreement.

  36. Woo Hoo! Safe again! by Zygote-IC- · · Score: 3, Funny

    I was reading down the list, scared to death that I would have to upgrade, but I don't see Microsoft BOB anywhere on there.
    SAFE AGAIN!!

  37. Re:Things I wish Microsoft would retire by DA-MAN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > Ahh, if only MS hadn't crushed netscape we might actually have a standard that is actually followed (rather than re-written as MS sees fit).

    *aHeM* Netscape, pre-Microsoft-killing, was not anywhere near being standard. The last version of Netscape that supported the standards properly was probably Netscape 3.01. After that they too tried to pull Microsofts game on Microsoft, embrace/extend/etc. However Microsoft ultimately won due to the tight grip on the desktop.

    --
    Can I get an eye poke?
    Dog House Forum
  38. Final Security Patches Released for Windows 98 by khamar · · Score: 3, Informative

    Of course, the real issue here is ongoing updates for software bugs - most of which are security patches. In the absence of Microsoft providing these patches for Windows 98, the community has released a series of patches for Windows 98 that are not available from Microsoft. These critical patches are available from http://linuxiso.org/

    --
    The first dog barks. All other dogs bark at the first dog.
  39. Never more stable than NT by msgmonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    NT3/4 was always rock solid compared to Win95/98/SE/ME. Sure it was never the thing to run for games but you can't even compare the two when it came to stability.

  40. Re:Yah I still use 98 by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, Microsoft has historically treated programmers pretty well. The whole reason most of the software on the planet is for Windows is because of this.

    Anybody who says that raw c++ is easier than VB is on crack! Microsofts whole business model is based on making it easy for people to build software for the platform.

    I write business apps in Python (and VB) using COM and I have to say that it is actually pretty neat as long as your company is already willing to pay the MS Office tax.

  41. It works both ways, folks... by Reziac · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Well, I can't help it that you linux types can't figure out how to run Windows ;)

    Seriously, in *every* case where someone complains that their Windows setup is unstable, I've found one of three factors is actually at fault:

    1) Crap hardware and/or drivers
    2) Lack of basic maintenance (frex, defragging)
    3) Installing tons of crapware/spyware, and/or uninstalling apps via the "random deletia" method

    The average Windows install, with *ZERO* maintenance and much abuse, lasts about three years before it reaches a point where most Joe Users think it needs a reformat. Meaning it's gotten slow, and crashes more than once a week or so. (Tho so far I've only seen ONE Windows setup that I couldn't quickly clean up and restore to good working order, *without* a reformat. Reinstalling stuff is against my religion. :)

    Serious question: Can a default linux install survive three years of daily abuse and neglect, by clueless users who nonetheless stick their fingers into everything in reach, and still be functional enough to be merely "annoying" (the state at which most folk give up on a neglected WinSetup)??

    Linux proponents are always saying that anyone who thinks linux is hard to get running good are just ignorant. Consider that the reverse is also true -- that anyone who can't get Windows to run stable is equally ignorant.

    Because frankly, folks, it just ain't that hard.

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?