Microsoft Retires Windows 98

prostoalex writes "Complying with the court requirement related to Sun-Microsoft lawsuit over Java, Microsoft is retiring Windows 98, SQL Server 7, Office XP Developer Edition and some other products."

Comments

So?

[dolo666]

Windows 98? But they are on XP now...
So I guess it's no big deal. How does this harm Microsoft? Win98 is (was) a nice and stable gaming platform, but XP is very stable for gaming too. This counts as a win on the record, but it's still too little too late, imho. Sun should be awarded more rights over *current* and *future* Microsoft products, as a penalty. This could get interesting!

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you just refer to Win98 as "stable?" Good god, you're delusional.

Re:So?

[Frymaster]

How does this harm Microsoft?

actually, it helps them. there are millions of administrative assistants and other corporate flunkies who have been happily using win 98 for years.

now that end of life is officially declared, the it deaprtmnt will probably force upgrades on all those people - and, of course, pay the necessary licensing fees to redmond.

microsoft: taking a bad ruling and turning it into a cash cow. again.

Re:So?

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

I got windows 98 to run for weeks at a time on my machine. Its not stable compared to Linux, but it is stable compared to its predecesor, windows 95.

Re:So?

[bloodrose]

Cash cow yes bad ruling far from it. Windows 98 was a decent platform for those who didnt want to bother about more advanced topics, but it as many things slowly loose their appeal to support after a while as well as the invention of "newer" technologies, but honestly who reaps the benefit of this "Cash Cow". Not just Redmond. Usually when a peice of software (os or otherwise) is "retired" supporting companies (ISP's, repair shops, etc...) lag behind about a year or more before declaring that they will not support it. For example, this year an ISP I worked for finally decided not to support Win 95 anymore. The repair shops that are in town that still support these "older" technologies will reap the benefits in that users who first turned to microsoft will turn to them instead before even considering to upgrade.

Re:So?

[Boing]

I got windows 98 to run for weeks at a time

I guess your screensaver was pretty busy...

Wait, what the hell am I saying, Windows 98 wouldn't be able to run a screensaver without crashing for weeks at a time.

Re:So?

[heinousjay]

With a little care, you can make 98 run for a long time. Hell - I had WinME running for almost six months before it gave out. Playing TFC every night, too.

the best part is: you can pile all this anecdotal evidence in one hand and shit in the other. Which one fills up first?

Re:So?

[GrayCalx]

microsoft: taking a bad ruling and turning it into a cash cow. again.

Sorry but what were they supposed to do? Sit in the corner like the badboy they are and think about what they'd done?

There'll be no dessert for MS either! Bad MS, bad MS.

Re:So?

[inaeldi]

I got Win2k to run for months, and no, it wasn't just idling.

Win98, on the other hand, I've never had success in keeping relatively stable.

Re:So?

[Kindaian]

Compared with Windows ME... is ROCK SOLID!!!

Re:So?

[jonfelder]

Uptime typically refers to how long the machine can stay on without rebooting, not how long you keep the operating system on there without reinstalling.

Granted keeping 98 on there for weeks without a reinstall is an admirable feat.

Re:So?

[cscx]

That was Win95, and a fix was released. I think it was a 32bit integer overflow.

Re:So?

[Ray Radlein]

Windows 98SE is still the baseline gaming platform for Windows gaming, and certainly represented a local maximum in stability -- it is worlds more stable than its predecessors (Win95 and 98 original), and it is also more stable than its immediate successor, WinME. And while the NT branch of the family was sometimes more stable than 98SE (and sometimes not), not until XP has game support come anywhere near being equal to that of 98SE.

98SE is, of course, far from perfect, but I, for one, still use it (don't worry, though -- I dual boot with Red Hat). When my mother-in-law got a new computer with XP on it, I had to spend a couple of weeks hacking and slashing away at its bells and whistles (and security holes and spyware) before it would run acceptably.

XP also suffers from the classic Microsoft "your OS knows what's best for you, and you'd better like it" syndrome. On the other hand, after five years, most of the operational innards of Win98 have been well mapped by generations of hardy explorers, and there are plenty of tools available for tweaking it just so.

Obviously, Win98SE is not the greatest OS of all time; but, in terms of relative stability combined with widespread application compatability, it is certainly the most successful OS Microsoft has ever produced.

I suppose you could look at it as being similar to the late 19th century British cavalry saber -- a form which realized its ideal expression at the same time as it became obsolete.

Re:So?

[Stonan]

WIN98SE: stable surfing the 'net & playing games as well as d/l via WinMX or Bit Torrent. I've had it running smoothly for 5-8 days at a time.

WINXP: stable for gaming? You're the one who's delusional.

I will probably goto Mandrake. I like Linux (been using PCs since 1982) I have a copy of the Windows eXtortion Program (pro edition). I might install it but I have it at work so there's no real point.

I did all my years of networks & servers in the 80s and early 90s. All i want out of my home computer is entertainment (surf the 'net and GAMES GAMES GAMES).

The biggest headache I have about XP is that there isn't an Expert Mode. I absolutely HATE having to waste my time going the baby steps that are there to help inexperienced users (i understand some people need this) but hinder those of us that know what they're doing.

As for stablility: Win2000. I haven't used it much but out of 30-40 techs & net admins that I've talked to, they all seem to agree on this...

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

I also refuse to upgrade from 98 SE. I also dual boot Debian GNU/Linux, but for gaming 98 SE is awesome. That's about it. Now if only Win95 was as stable, had good USB support and drivers for modern h/w. Win95 is one fast GUI in new machines.

My father-in-law once refered to the affect on his machine after upgrading to XP, that it was like powering a cruise ship (XP) with a 10hp outboard motor (PC). Menu response slow.

Ever try using the Search on XP facility to find pictures on your pc? Default view is preview every picture found. If you own a decent digital camera and your pics are say 2048xwhatever res, the machine slows to crap as it previews them all, maxes out your virtual memory and pc falls over. Pressing Stop has no effect for a minute or two, if you are lucky and your pc hasn't locked completely.

Re:So?

[bechthros]

Windows 98 is very stable if you know how to coax it and caress it. I've been using 98 on my main studio/gaming machine for years. Using the 98lite patch helps a lot. I haven't bluescreened in over 18 months, unless a CD was dirty. In fact when I set up my first web server it ran 98, and was up constantly with zero downtime for six months, until I moved. Of course, it wasn't always so, but it's been around for so long that most of the major bugs have been worked out (hell, most of em were worked out by the release of 98SE). So of course MS had to go invent new bugs to put back in and call it Millennium Edition.

I'm not saying that it's the right choice for everyone or for all situations, but for my multitracking/simcity box I wouldn't have it any other way. 98SE is VASTLY faster than XP. And, BTW, VASTLY more secure.

Re:So?

[Zerbey]

I regularly got 98 to run for 4 months at a time before finally it simply stopped responding requiring a reboot. I used it at work every day, lots of word processing, spreadsheets, some graphic design, web browsing of course. Played Quake after hours too.

Comparison: My record uptime on an XP box is 3 weeks (similar usage). NT/2000 servers at my work stay up for months at a time.

Sure it doesn't beat my Linux boxes which have stayed up for years at a time, but it's no where near the "crashing all the time" reports that I've read.

Windows Me on the other hand....

Re:So?

[Penguin's Advocate]

Windows 98 was a 16 bit OS that had delusions of being a 32bit OS. Win2k was a real 32bit OS, and although I don't prefer or use either, it is truly an insult to win2k to compare it to win98.
Also, win98 was not a stable OS for anything. Win2k is a far better OS than win98 for everything, including gaming. Even Linux/wineX is better/more stable for gaming than win98 ever was.

Re:So?

[Daengbo]

I was going to post similar feelings, so I'm glad that I read down a bit first. I set up a listening lab fo a university and their software was Win98 and a Macromedia app that required the non-NT line of OSes. 98Lite and removing every other superfluous thing on the computer saved my but on that deal. Later the director said that they needed Office and IE on the computers. I looked at her with disbelief -- they didn't use anything like that. She just wanted them on the computers for some unknown reason. Moz and OOo fixed her problem and kept the stability.
I set up an automatic ghost recovery disk for the secretary before my contract was over, but they remained stable and error free for at least eight months after, or until they upgraded everything to IE6 and warez MSOffice. TIT (This is Thailand!)

Re:So?

[The Clockwork Troll]

Apparently Microsoft has succeeded in making people feel their systems are stable as long as they don't need to be reformatted frequently?

Re:So?

[Stephen Samuel]

You are full of crap. I was able to run Win98 for 2 years without a reformat,

Oh, sorry. My mistake.

I thought you were talking about running Win-98 for weeks without a reboot.

silly comment of the minute:
"I've been booting my Linux box daily for the last year. The computer's fine, but my shoe's starting to wear out."

Re:So?

[Reziac]

Whether WinXP will run for long periods seems to be machine-specific. On some systems it's great, on others it maxes out at a couple days, even tho the same system runs Win2K for months on end. I'm pretty sure there's something hardware-specific going on here, but am not sure exactly what. However, AMD CPUs on VIA chipsets are one probable culprit.

I don't normally leave my XP box powered up since it's a specific-task system, but now I think I will for a while, just to see (BTW it has Intel CPU/chipset). It's been up for a couple weeks right now, mostly burning CDs for 4-5 hours at a crack, and is behaving fine.

That machine's other boot is WinME... and yeah, in its default config, ME is terrible, it wouldn't stay up for 15 minutes, and couldn't even crash gracefully (took 20 minutes to finish crashing). I did away with Restore, applied 98Lite in default "uncouple IE from the desktop" mode, and learned never to use the "new help" (which apparently FUBARs memory)... and since then, WinME hasn't crashed in over three YEARS, despite being abused as the "install anything once" test machine.

BTW, I'm not used to Windows crashing, and consider it an anomalous event. I have Win95 and Win98 boxes that have NEVER crashed, even doing real work and with uptimes of a couple months or more. Most of mine have NEVER bluescreened, either.

My old DOS box routinely ran up to 2 years without a reboot (and then only because the HD took a dump) and I think that spoiled my expectations :)

ding, dong...

[rokzy]

...the witch is dead

Upgrade

[Cavalkaf]

Well, Microsoft is forcing everyone that wants tech support to pay another $500 to upgrade, and still get no source code....

Re:Upgrade

[king-manic]

Realistically, only about 0.1% of *nix users ever even think about touching kernel source. For windows users it's be down to about 0.0001% that even know what the kernel is. So the source would be about as useful as a 4000 page manual written in Aramaic, translated from the original babalonian through french then swedish and finally chinese.

Re:Upgrade

[neuroticia]

...but what about those of us who speak Aramic?

The point is that it's there for those inclined to see, to do, to touch, and to modify. And it makes all the difference.

-Sara

Re:Upgrade

[Alan]

But they can. No joe user would dwelve into kernel editing, but with linux a developer can, without having to pay $1000s to microsoft. In fact, the tools required to edit the kernel come with the linux distribution. Just because it's only 0.000000000001% of the users doesn't mean that it's still not a good thing.

What if MS released the windows 98 source code under the GPL or a BSD or Apache style license? Probably that 0.000000000001% of developers who care enough will take it, fix some of the annoying bugs and features in it and create a windows 99 release that can be used by anyone to patch windows98 and create a useable free version (think dr-dos being released and now used as a minimul dos environment by various companies, ie: apple's virtual pc uses it as a base dos install).

Maybe that wouldn't happen, maybe it would. Without he code being available, it *can't*.

Re:Upgrade

[glenrm]

I would take that a step further and say what about a useful modification that one of these 0.0001% make that everybody else starts using. Only a few people starting making the MOD to Half-Life called Counter Strike yet it is more popular than the original.

Re:Upgrade

[lightsaber1]

That's not Microsoft's business practice and probably never will be. Just because we like the idea of open source, doesn't mean everybody does. Microsoft can make more money by hiding its source and not allowing modification, so they can pay their developers more, and so on and so on. Just let it be. Those that prefer the closed source model can go there and the rest can go open source...who says everything has to use the same model? It's a free market society (in North America at least), and there are no laws against it.

Re:Upgrade

[pizzaman100]

...but what about those of us who speak Aramic?

You must really be looking forward to watching "The Passion". :)

Re:Upgrade

[operagost]

I don't think XP is $500 even in Canadian.

Re:Upgrade

[Tjp($)pjT]

So if it only interests 1 in 100,000,000,000,000 then someone should devote any energy to it. Wow, I hope it interests more that an insignificant fraction of 1 human being.

Re:Upgrade

[Atreide]

...but what about those of us who speak Aramic?

those are scholars, but scholars are not expected to touch, even less to modify Aramic or Babylonian documents, they are too valuable

therefore Microsoft kernel is much more valuable than Linux kernel...
what kind of document do you modify ? uncomplete or erroneous ones ;-p

well, Microsoft protects some kind of artefact (some may say the one ring ... to tie them all)
this may explain why you have to be explicitly authorised by the "librarian" Microsoft in order to touch the saint relic of their Kernel.

Re:Upgrade

[AsparagusChallenge]

What if MS released the windows 98 source code under the GPL or a BSD or Apache style license? Probably that 0.000000000001% of developers who care enough will take it, fix some of the annoying bugs and features in it and create a windows 99 release

You silly, it would be used to create libwin32.so.98 and some kernel modules, and native windows applications would run about anywhere.

Re:Upgrade

[symbolic]

You don't ask KFC to reveal their "seven herbs and spices" do you?

This isn't even a fair comparison. If I don't like KFC, for whatever reason, my decision to go somewhere else (or even make my own) will be virtually without cost. Why? Because chicken isn't closed-source. If I decide I don't like Microsoft, I always have to weigh my options against the very real cost of installing and learning a new OS, converting my old documents, potential compatibility issues, etc. Why? Because Microsoft is closed-source, and is often, by design, incompatible with other potential options.

Re:Upgrade

[johnnyb]

You miss the point. Progeny is offering support for RH8 and RH9. The ONLY REASON they can do this is because the source is available.

When Microsoft discontinues Win98, there is NOONE ELSE who can support Win98. You are stuck. With open-source, any company can offer support for any product. A true free market, which is only available by having open source code.

I don't compile my own anything anymore, except a few Perl modules. However, having the source available means that my RH8 boxes will continue to be in healthful condition over the next few years.

Re:Upgrade

[Squozen]

From the Microsoft Australia website (http://www.microsoft.com/australia/pricing/defaul t.aspx#W):

Windows XP Home
Estimated Price: $463.00 (Inclusive of GST)

Windows XP Professional
Estimated Price: $675.00 (Inclusive of GST)

It certainly makes OS X's price of A$229 easier to tolerate.

hurrah!

[Anonymous Coward]

Best news since 1998!!!

Dys damnlexia

[Anonymous Coward]

I read that as "Microsoft Retries Windows 98" and I thought, "Didn't they learn the first time around?"

Fact: Windows 98 is dying

[cpeterso]

Fact: Windows 98 is dying

It is common knowledge that Windows 98 is dying. Everyone knows that ever hapless Windows 98 is mired in an irrecoverable and mortifying tangle of fatal trouble. It is perhaps anybody's guess as to which Windows 98 is the worst off of an admittedly suffering Windows 98 community. The numbers continue to decline for Windows but Windows 98 may be hurting the most. Look at the numbers. The erosion of user base for FreeBSD continues in a head spinning downward spiral.

All major marketing surveys show that Windows 98 has steadily declined in market share. Windows 98 is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Windows 98 is to survive at all it will be among hobbyist dilettante dabblers. In truth, for all practical purposes Windows 98 is already dead. It is a dead man walking.

Fact: Windows 98 is dying

Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying

[ConceptJunkie]

I know this was meant as a joke but Windows 98 was stillborn. I sucked on day one and it sucks today. Problem is I volunteer at my church to maintain their network and software and until we can convince the pastor to upgrade, I'll have to continue to support it.

We wouldn't bother upgrading because they will be moving to a new building with a new network and everything two years, but the fact of the matter is that you can't set up a Windows 98 network, work through all the pain and pathetic Microsoft crap and then leave it alone once it works because it never stays working for long.

Microsoft may be abandoning the product but the fact of the matter is that they couldn't be bothered to make it not suck in the first place and there will be millions of people saddled with support this sorry piece of crap whether MS supports it or not.

If we were talking about Windows 2000 it would be a different story because Win2k was and continues to be a viable and stable platform. In fact, with the NT line, there hasn't been compelling reasons to upgrade for about 5 years except for support of new hardware. That's the problem... when you actually do something right, you lose the upgrade track because people are actually satisfied.

That's why MS never cared about the DOS branch of their OS's. They knew they would sell bazillions of copies, but when called on the carpet for its crappy quality, they could just point to the NT branch.

Now that those branches have merged, I guess they have to start making all their OS's suck, or run the risk of having too many satisfied customers.

Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying

[T-Ranger]

Two years running an unsupported OS is a very long time. If your network is connected to the internet it is a death sentence. It is almost guarenteed that in two years someone will find an exploit, and exploit you specificly.

As a matter of cost, having computer upgrades tied to building upgrades for an orgnization which Im sure has finite amounts of money is a Bad Thing. Either get your new hardware and licenses now, or after the new building: spread the costs around. Not for 30 years has physcially moving computers been a major cost concern. Computers are resonably portable. New computers and new buildings are sepearate issues.

Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying

[Compact Dick]

I sucked on day one...

Missing your childhood, aye?

Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying

[Pharmboy]

Two words... "internal security". Just because you have a firewall does not stop things from happenning. All it takes is one floppy from home and you are toast.

But we were talking about win98, not internal security. (btw, most boxes have NO cd or floppy drive, on purpose). Internal security is the same for 98 as for nt or linux. I put my knoppix cd in ANY computer that can boot a cd, and I own it, 98 or not. Also, the most important part of internal security is not getting "socially engineered", which again, is not OS specific.

I know every person using every computer, and have for many years. When they do something stupid, their computer "just wont work" for a few days (hint: because I "can't fix it yet"), which keeps them slightly paranoid about doing anything, which makes my job easier. Again, this is not OS specific.

But the main point I made was, and is, that if you need a simple network, and can use a linux firewall for external security (easy enough to non-linux users), and not overly concerned about internal security (like this church, or the my place where everyone has been there for years and its a smaller office), then Windows 98 is a pretty easy network to manage. You can run old versions of Office (cheap to ebay or find used), modern AV, and unlike XP, its fairly small and easy to backup and restore. Almost every mainstream program still being made will still run on Windows 98, although NOT all will run on 95.

Not every network needs a dedicated IT staff. Not every organization needs bullet proof internal security. Some just need 5 to 10 computers to run Peachtree or Quicken, or a contact manager. Or share the internet, in which case, the 'server' running 98 isn't needed at all. After all these years, I have come to the conclusion that smaller and simpler OS's are easier to maintain. Revolutionary, isn't it?

Why is this news?

[Lane.exe]

In other news, Windows 3.1, long the holdout of solitaire, minesweeper and QBASIC enthusiasts the world over, has been retired by Microsoft.

Re:Why is this news?

[Jacer]

Because.....It's being retired because of a lawsuit, not because it was Microsoft's will. Notice they also had to retire a version of SQL and the current version of office. Not a very happy ending for them eh? RTFA.

Re:Why is this news?

[nate1138]

You forgot about BOB. From the press release:

Microsoft BOB, after many years on top as the premier productivity assistant, is set to be retired. A Microsoft spokesman said: "We deeply regret the decision to end the life of such a successful product. However, a new breed of assistants, led by our popular 'Clippy' mascot will continue our fine tradition of assistive software." In response, user groups the world over have petitioned Microsoft to open-source BOB.

Re:Why is this news?

[R2.0]

Boss gets a new laptop, has Win2k on it. 1st question: "Where are the games?"

Like an idiot, I find them on his machine and drag them to his desktop.

Now it's either freestyle, porn, or travel reservations - I don't know that he's even opened any other applications, much less done any work.

Truly Sad.....

[GeneralEmergency]

Ironically, Win98se has been Microsoft's most secure operating system for the last two years!

Kuh-Bum-Boomp!
Thank you, I'll be here all week.

Re:Truly Sad.....

[Tackhead]

> Ironically, Win98se has been Microsoft's most secure operating system for the last two years!

Flamebait?

A Win98SE box runs no services. No DCOM, no RPC, no IIS, no "Remote Support", no MSN. With a couple of tweaks to rebind (or unbind) NetBIOS, it listens on no ports.

Use a third-party email client and a third-party browser to avoid the Outleak/IE holes, and the poster's right. For a clued-in user (i.e. someone smart enough not to click on every stupid attachment some bozo mails him), Win98SE is more secure than XP.

Is Win98 a good operating system? Hell no. It's a glorified DOS shell. Get your trojan running anywhere on that machine, and j00 0wn t3h b0x. But in order for that to happen, the end user pretty much has to cooperate.

Re:Truly Sad.....

[AchmedHabib]

That's just because every attempt to root it, always results in a bluescreen

Re:Truly Sad.....

[Tackhead]

> Seriously, no trolling, I mean it. I made the switch from Windows to Linux after seeing ME being a step back from 98 and XP being not much better. Now I know why I end up in an argument with every other web designer in the group!

While we're at it - Win9x was much more recoverable than NT/XP/2K. If an XP box dies on boot due to a fux0r3d registry, you reinstall because the "recovery console" doesn't actually let you run any executables that might help you "recover".

Win9x has a corrupt registry? No problem! Boot to DOS off a floppy. Add a line to MSDOS.SYS that that says BootGUI=0. Poke around in C:\WINDOWS\SYSBCKUP and find the last 4-5 versions of the registry. Extract somewhere safe, use ATTRIB to deprotect the corrupt registry, and overwrite.

CHKDSK/SCANDISK not cooperating? No problem in 9x. Boot to DOS and image the drive with Ghost before CHKDSK can corrupt anything.

Some twit's stupid installer overwrites MSVCRT.DLL with a borked version that breaks half your other applications? On XP, you're screwed - can't overwrite it 'cuz it's always in use. On 9x, boot to DOS and overwrite it yourself with a known "good" version. The same techniques apply to trivially expunge MS Outleak Excess and other borkware.

In this context, 9x is less secure than XP per se, but when the "security" you're trying to break is keeping you from manipulating files on your own bloody hard drive, sometimes that's a Good Thing.

Somewhere between NT and Longhorn, single-user machines that ran Microsoft operating systems ceased to be Your Computers and became Bill's Computers. Because it was based on DOS, a 98SE box is always going to be Your Computer.

Re:Truly Sad.....

[owlstead]

Yup, this is only too true. Using Windows 98 does not contain any risks. Unfortunately, whithout any firewalling, with NetBIOS enabled by default on all adapters, with a broken TCP/IP stack (and a completely bunk dial up networking) etc. I would be very hard pressed to recommend it as low end internet operating system.

Furthermore, it would be easy to use XP or Windows 2000 with the firewall enabled. That would be as safe (or safer) than using the Windows 98 operating system. IE and Outlook are just disasters waiting to happen (on your system, on the internet they are already happening) so using third party browser and email client is to be recommended in all circumstances.

The only thing worse than using Windows 98 may be Windows ME, but they fixed some serious dial up issues in that operating system, blurring the choice a bit.

Re:Truly Sad.....

[Schmucky The Cat]

Registry corruption and you need a DOS floppy?

Hello LAST KNOWN GOOD CONFIGURATION.

I mean, it even detects failed boots and offers you the last known good config option automatically.

And any DLL necessary for booting is always in \dllcache, so some twit's stupid installer can't overwrite it.

You are either making stuff up or making your life more difficult than it needs to be.

Hollow victory

[cybrchrst]

The only thing this means is that people that still have their Packard Bells and Dells and the such with Windows 98 OEM copies are not going to be able to do Windows Updates and are basically going to have to upgrade to another PC if they want support. Any guess as to what OS their next PC is going to run?

Re:Hollow victory

[Anonymous Coward]

Lunix? [sic]

Re:Hollow victory

[bdigit]

Windows XP?

Harsh assessment?

[Short Circuit]

The bottom of the article mentions that Sun attempts to distribute Java through court proceedings and OEM agreements.

That wasn't a very nice thing to say...maybe CNET has a beef with Sun? (the article is copyright CNET, not MSNBC)

Re:Harsh assessment?

[LX.onesizebigger]

CNET is owned by Paul Allen's Vulcan Northwest. Paul Allen has a 5% stake in Microsoft.

Tin foil, get your tin foil!

Re:Harsh assessment?

[EpsCylonB]

Tin foil, get your tin foil!

If you are not already wearing your tin foil hat then you have already been compromised...

Just wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

...one day they'll be back. Trying to coax 98 out of retirement for 1 more mission. At first, 98 will be adament that he is retired. But then, they will tell him about an evil so great...

Re:Just wait...

[GnomeAttic]

I think its more likely that 98 will be killed in action on its last day before retirement. In light of this tragedy, Windows XP will avenge 98's death and save the world in the process.

Nice way of spinning it

[gilesjuk]

Blame Sun for forcing you to retire a product. They would have retired Win98 by now anyway. It's over five years old.

Re:Nice way of spinning it

[DCMonkey]

They did, but they still distribute it via MSDN subscriptions (to allow developers to test on old platforms). Now that will stop too.

for better? or for worse?

[musikit]

although i think it's for the better. get bad code out of public hands. a couple of reasons why i think it's a bad idea

1. force people to upgrade
1.1 forces people to spend money on something they may not need
1.2 forces people to use that windows activation thing
2. security. no more patches for win98. this means that the small group of people with win98 are always going to be vulnerable to internet viruses. Upgrade you say? what if you can't afford it?

i'm sure there are tons more reasons. in fact i'd like to heard more below but these are the two things that worry me because i have very little money and family/friends still using 98.

Re:for better? or for worse?

[Jason1729]

To get bad code out of public hands, they have to replace it with better code. This will just replace bad code with even worse code (XP is worse because it has more DRM).

The "activation thing" is a cripping feature. I can't accept that EULA in good faith, so I can't use XP at all (imo pirating XP would be sinking to MS's level). This just pushes me one step closer to a mac. I'm currently running win98 and win2k. The security issue is the major concern; now I can't use win98 on an important machine anymore.

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:for better? or for worse?

[nuggetman]

>while others will stick to their current machine and may use a Linux distro

Do you honestly think Joe Average who still has an old computer running Windows 95 or 98 has any idea what Linux is, let alone how to install it properly? An improperly configured Linux system can be as dangerous out of the box as a Windows system.

Re:for better? or for worse?

[bhtooefr]

No, it's 233 PII w/64MB RAM minimum, 300 PII w/128MB RAM recommended. BTW, I've seen benchmarks showing a P100 w/512MB running XP Pro, and THG said that they couldn't get anything meaningful out of a 486, but it was possible(!)

Re:for better? or for worse?

[Avihson]

"The remainder, it's likely, will keep using 95/98 until their machine commits suicide. They will not update the system. If you find a 98 system somewhere, odds have got to be high some worm or virus is on it already. It's mere existence (today) screams "I don't update my software. I don't care about security or stability." 2000 or even NT4, sure, why not. But 98... nuh uh.

Au Contraire! I update my software I care about security and stability. I also do not pirate Microsoft software.
My Laptop and game box are running purchased copies of 98SE, I have a legal uninstalled copy of 2000 sitting on the shelf. ( came with the latop, never broke the shrink-wrap)
The game box is secured by a Devil-linux firewall, and the laptop install is there just for officeXP-pro (also purchased, student discount). The primary OS on the laptop is Fedora Core-1, just dual-booting to 98SE when I have no choice but using OfficeXP instead of OpenOffice. No virus or worms, I don't use IE or Outlook on anything.

I see no rhyme nor reason to move to Win2k or XP or Win2003 as long as Open Source and 98 meets my requirements. So how does this scream "I don't update, or care about stability & security?"

I plan on using 98SE until it will no longer run on my new hardware. I will not buy another MS produce, Hell they are not even worth pirating, I can get cheap education editions and even free enterprise versions from less scrupulous associates, but why bother? I Like 98 on a 2.4GHz box. Talk about speed.... It is a nice thin game client when properly tweaked.

Now if Bill-G wants to seriously wound Linux, he can open the source to 98. That would strip a number of developers away from Linux and main-stream OSS as they dink around showing how Microsoft should have fixed the problems in 98.

Re:for better? or for worse?

[SEE]

If Win98 were open-sourced, it would be a matter of months before enough chunks were absorbed into WINE to make its Win32 support perfect.

Similarly, tweaking DOSEMU and modifying Win98 (a la the modified Windows 3.1 of Win-OS/2, which can run in DOSEMU) would be fairly easy, since Win98 is architecturally so similar to DOS plus Win 3.1's 386 enhanced mode.

Mainstream OSS talent would be diverted into those projects and the improving Win98 projects, sure. But mainstream computer dollars would be lost by Microsoft to both a Linux that can run Win32 programs as well as XP, and a "Winux" that is Linux to the hardware and power users but modified and improved Win98 to the ordinary user and his software. (In the latter case, BSODs would still happen, but they'd cause the underlying Linux to quick-load another Windows session.)

I expect "Winux" would quickly become the favorite OS of computer makers; free and looks just like the familar Windows environment. Microsoft would lose hundreds of millions.

Heh.. you left a 'FreeBSD' in there ;)

[Shalome]

;) Proofreading is your friend.

Still quite a few WIn 98 boxes out there

[ducomputergeek]

My father is still using 98. In fact he just had to reinstall everything after a virus. All he does is use it to check his stocks, email, and minor web surfing. I can't think of any good reason to spend the money upgrading his 400Mhz K6-2.

I walked him through the process and told him that Win 98 support was going out the window at year's end. This isn't the first time this story has graced /.. He didn't seem to care and has no plans to upgrade until the hardware gives out and the harddrive fails or something like that.

Then he's buying a mac...

Uhh....

[jetkust]

Let's look on the bright side, Windows ME is still in circulation.

Re:Uhh....

[irokitt]

Either you have never tried your hand at tech support (formal or informal) or you have a sick sense of humor. Don't joke about 'ME, man.

Available vs. Supported...

[M.C. Hampster]

Note that this says nothing about support for these products. Microsoft is going to stop distributing these products to comply with the court order, not support them. It really is two different issues.

Now, since some of these products aren't even sold anymore, the only reason this was noticed was because of the notice on MSDN, which is a place you could get these products if you had a subscription.

Long life to win98

[armando_wall]

Long life to an OS which filled my life with the joy of rebooting, freezing and hardware failure blue screens (since the day of its presentation).

It will be missed! :'-(

And what will MS do?

[Progman3K]

Simple,
They'll use retiring all those products to move people to a newer version of Windows, which will arguably be EVEN HARDER for users to migrate away from!

Every time Microsoft is sentenced to a "penalty" they find some way of using it to their advantage.

No reason why this will be any different.

Re:Good, now retire IE5

[larsoncc]

IE 5.X is part of this forced retirement.

Retirement?

[MandoSKippy]

Retirement? Windows 98? doesn't the word "retirement" indicate that that which is retiring worked? ... hmm

this is our chance as well

[geekoid]

Look, most people are going to have to upgrade there hardware for the latest version of XP.
We need to take advantage of this, and convince people to get Linux and give it a try.

Tell them, if they like it and it does what you
need, then they won't have to upgrade.

But if it doesn't do what you need, they where going to have to upgrade anyways, right?

The Linux community does not get many opportunities like this. lets use it.

Fortunately ...

[IPFreely]

... Microsoft is not retiring Win98 SE, only versions of Win98 prior to SE. See this.

No, it does not include Win98 SE

[leerpm]

In the original full posting, they give the full list of all products being retired:

Due to a settlement agreement reached in January 2001, the following products are being phased out and will no longer available to customers through MSDN Subscriber Downloads or other channels at Microsoft. These products will be removed from MSDN Subscriber Downloads as of December 15th, 2003.

Office XP Developer
Visio 2000
BackOffice Server 2000
Office 2000 Developer
Office 2000 Tools
Office 2000 Multilingual
Office 2000 Premium SR-1
Office 2000 Service Pack 2
Outlook 2000
Project 2000
SQL Server 7
SQL Server 7 Service Pack 3
Embedded Visual Tools 3.0
Visual Studio 6 MSDE
IE 5.5
MapPoint 2002
Visual Studio 6.0 SP3 and SP5
Windows 98
Windows 98 Y2K
Windows 98 Resource Kit
Windows 98 SP1 (all win98 except SE)
Windows NT 4.0
ISA Server 2000
Visual Basic for (Alpha Systems)

The following product will be updated with Java-compliant versions before the 12/31/03 deadline: Office XP Professional with FrontPage
Publisher 2002
Windows NT 4.0
Small Business Server 2000

Re:No, it does not include Win98 SE

[ad_anderson]

I find that Windows NT 4.0 being on both lists highly amusing. Somehow they're going to release a java-compliant version and then yank it from the shelves before 12/15/03.

Re:No, it does not include Win98 SE

[Anonymous Coward]

So, how exactly does the Sun Case impact

Office XP Developer
Visio 2000
BackOffice Server 2000
Office 2000 Developer
Office 2000 Tools
Office 2000 Multilingual
Office 2000 Premium SR-1
Office 2000 Service Pack 2
Outlook 2000
Project 2000

Are they saying the JVM is in all these products ?

Most likely it is they want to force people to upgrade to the latest products.

I wont even contemplate how SQL server impinges on JVM

I guess I am in the cynical camp and see this as a marketting ploy to force people to upgrade and endure licensing 6.0

Headline misleading?

[nolife]

Microsoft will retire several of its products next week, including Windows 98 and SQL Server 7, to comply with a court order related to its dispute with Sun Microsystems over Java.

This is misleading. As I understand the situation, they did NOT retire these packages because the court order told them too. They retired them because they did not want to get them into compliance and spend the resources on those packages. That is a big difference.

As with most MS settlements, they win even when they lose.

Passive Aggressive Legal/PR Strategy

[4of12]

Compliance with court orders to remove the polluted versions of JVM does not require that those entire product lines be discontinued.

However, it is in Microsoft's business interest to push users of those products into upgrading to newer Microsoft products, for which they'll gain license revenue AND lower support costs associated with discontinuing support for those old products.

And, it is in MSFT's public relations interests to deflect blame for this action away from themselves and upon enemy Sun and its Java legal action.

Exactly the same red-herring strategy is being used to hold up class action settlements in California and to blame it on Lindows.

Re:Good, now retire IE5

[larsoncc]

Full list of retired products, taken from MSDN board...

> Office XP Developer
> Visio 2000
> BackOffice Server 2000
> Office 2000 Developer
> Office 2000 Tools
> Office 2000 Multilingual
> Office 2000 Premium SR-1
> Office 2000 Service Pack 2
> Outlook 2000
> Project 2000
> SQL Server 7
> SQL Server 7 Service Pack 3
> Embedded Visual Tools 3.0
> Visual Studio 6 MSDE
> IE 5.5
> MapPoint 2002
> Visual Studio 6.0 SP3 and SP5
> Windows 98
> Windows 98 Y2K
> Windows 98 Resource Kit
> Windows 98 SP1 (all win98 except SE)
> Windows NT 4.0 (Terminal Server and Option Pack)
> ISA Server 2000
> Visual Basic for (Alpha Systems)
>
> The following products will be updated to versions that do not contain the
> Microsoft Virtual Machine:
>
> Office XP Professional with FrontPage
> Publisher 2002
> Windows NT 4.0 (Workstation, Server, Enterprise Server)
> Small Business Server 2000

Noooo...

[bunhed]

Who are we going to call for support of our office machi... oh... right... we never did get any support did we...

Why Copyright Laws Need Changing

[randall_burns]

If a company ceases to support a product, the source code for that product should be automatically released into the public domain or under and Open Source license. I have a client that has thousands of Win98 machines that are still being used. The the Win98 source were available, Wine would get real good, real fast.

Win98 is still popular

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Google, Windows 98 is the second most used operating system of the world. It had 30% market share of all web users at September.

Source:
http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.h tml

Unsupported but not gone!

[rueger]

I would love to know how many Win98 boxes are still churning away happily. There must be millions of them whose owners haven't found a reason to change.

For those people, Win98SE, with Office or even Works, is just what they need. Fast enough, flexible enough, and if they manage to stay free of spyware, reliable enough.

Since most of these people never bother with updates and patches (I mean, who would with a 28.8 modem?) Microsoft's move will mean nothing to them.

Won't this make Win98 abandonware? -nt-

[Eudial]

-nt-

Re:Windows 98SE too?

[BondGamer]

I just found this: Among the products to be put to rest are older versions of some the Redmond, Wash.-based developer's flagship packages, including all versions of Office 2000, Visio 2000, all editions of Windows 98 except for Windows 98 Second Edition, Internet Explorer 5.5, and SQL Server 7. The artical from techweb

Re:Friends, Netizens, Slashdotters

[tomhudson]

Something people have missed that I should point out - even though Microsoft isn't supporting 98 anymore, support/update files will still be available all over the place.

For example, if you want DirectX9 (which originally wasn't supposed to be available for Win98) borrow a friends' copy of Flight Sim 2004, and run the DirextX9 install. Heck, if you search enough old game CDs, you'll find all sorts of updates and patches, including IE5.5 for Win95, and the Win95 USB backpatches.

Remember, game developers have licences that allow them to redistribute many of the "no-longer-supported" components, and they want compatability with the largest audience.

$699 to Sun...

[3Suns]

Microsoft is retiring Windows 98 because of licensing problems with Sun. Starting June 1, 2003, Sun will begin suing Windows 98 end-users for IP violations, unless they pay $1400 per processor. Act before the date, and Sun will discount the IP license to only $699 per processor.

So upgrading to Windows XP at only $500 a license will be a huge discount, plus you get a better OS! Even bigger savings if you have a multiprocessor!

Others Should be able to legally support it then.

[Linus Sixpack]

When the car manufacturors stopped making older cars a whole industry sprang up supporting older models. The Car companies had at first said to the consumer -- upgrade its not supported.

Car part companies won a major legal win where they were allowed to make parts, against the wishes of the car manufacturers because there was an over-riding consumer interest.

At what point must the publishers of a de-facto standard publish its source code to allow others to help the userbase when they choose not to?

Re:But what else should one use for retail games?

[utlemming]

I agree. When is the last time that you heard of a hard-core gamer running WinXP or 2K on their machine? I have actually tried, albeit unsuccesfully to run Win98 on my Windows box, but it would not co-operate. And frankly, WinXP SUCKS WHEN IT COMES TO RUNNING GAMES! And 98 is fast as living heck when it comes to running on a modern computer.

Does this mean that maybe we'll be able to get our hands on the source code so that we can implement the API's into WINE? Well, that idea probably has a snowball's chance in hell. But it might be an interesting try.

Alas poor 98,

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

parting will be such sweet sorrow. The first mainstream x86OS to be somewhat stable. In contrast 95 looked so bad, it was the fufillment of a promise that microsoft had always given us. With out it, I dare say that the web would be quite different. Without 98, Netscape would still be a domminant company. Who would have filled the void of a desktop Gui? 98 was the ultimate hack. DOS meets Gui, 16 bit in harmony with 32 bit, ugliness and usability. While I eventually left for the stability,security of Linux. We wouldn't really appreciate Linux without having windows to compare it to. 98 had its flaws and those of 95 and 3.1 and Dos, but altogether they made for a quirky upredictable system that couldn't survive a week without a reboot. Ahh the good old days, or bad days.

Re:Win98 Was Still Available???

[CoolMoDee]

Goto fry's eleectronics, they got shelves and shelves of Win98/ME still at 130 bucks, it dosn't look like it is going anywhere anytime soon, so Fry's Electronics: For all of your Win9x needs.

That make me wonder about Windows TCO

[xutopia]

most of the research (mostly MS funded FUD) is done on deployment and many show that OSS has a similar if not higher TCO because of factors X, Y and Z.

I wonder if any of those TCO papers discuss what it costs to upgrade in the next ten years because MS decides to put something in their software to make you upgrade.

now is the time for Linux companies...

[holy_smoke]

To make the marketing push to get users converted to Linux desktops. Take advantage of folks' being "forced" to upgrade their OS.

Lindows/Mandrake/Suse/Etc should be coming up with a special upgrade/conversion offer for Win98 users.

Use Microsoft's announcements against them, use the gap between XP and Longhorn, use their security vulnerabilities, use their pricing... use it all against them. Relentless pursuit. Relentless flock of hungry penguins.

Should I miss it?

[tacocat]

I'm not sure how I should react to this.

• Can I now sell my Windows 98 OS?
• Should I shred all my old games and realize that they will never play?
• I probably never will finish Myst or SimCity.

But personally, my vote is for Windows 95b. The b is very important. That was a distribution that actually worked. If they kept the USB add-ons available I might still have on of my machines running it.

I wonder how Windows 95b would run on a 3GHz CPU with 1GB RAM?

Re:Should I miss it?

[Tony Hoyle]

I wonder how Windows 95b would run on a 3GHz CPU with 1GB RAM?

I wouldn't - above a certain speed Win9x falls over with a division by zero (some kind of busy loop it uses for timing I think).

IIRC it can only address 256MB anyway without becoming unstable.

/not/ court-ordered

[dewdrops]

In spite of what MSNBC says (nice job moderators; linking to a story written by an obivously biased news source...), the court order doesn't require MS to stop distributing these products. The court order says that MS has to ship Windows with a Java VM (and not the MS "Java" VM which is not really Java). They've known this was coming for years; they could've updated the products to use a real JVM (as they did with many other products/verions), but, instead decided to stop distributing these old products. Blaming the court order is ridiculous.

Well it's a good start....

[DukeLinux]

Now if they would just retire Windows 2000 and Windows XP (Windows ME does not count).

Re:Retired? still working :)

[JBark]

Actually, you might see quite a benefit upgrading to 2k or XP, since they both have much better power management support. Win98 doesn't even support the HALT instruction, so your system is sitting their running at pretty much 100% CPU usage all the time. I upgraded to WinXP on my 5 year old laptop with a K6-III+/400, and the battery life went way up, and the system runs much cooler. Win2k/XP are also much better at handling frequent PC Card swapping, something I find myself doing quite frequently.

There are 3rd party apps that added the CPU idle feature win9x/Me, such as CPUCool.

Snub Sun and reduce security responsibilities

[calyphus]

M$ does two things with this maneuver. The Sun JVM has been covered, but what about security patches?

Will they excuse their slow and ineffectual responses to security holes by claiming it's a dead (soon to be almost completely unsupported) product, and that anywho still using it is responsible if they haven't upgraded? Bunch a weasels.

Too bad...

[Beek]

It was the best thing to happen to Linux.

Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the

[krbvroc1]

When the car manufacturors stopped making older cars a whole industry sprang up supporting older models.

Those entreprenuers had to reverse engineer the parts and come up with compatible/comparible after-market solutions. In software, this reverse engineering has been deemed illegal by the DCMA.

The ruling in the Lexmark case claimed that 'Static Control' who reverse engineered a chip Lexmark added to their toner was not illegal because the toner/chip was readily available to 'Static Control'. I'm not so sure that if this was about software it would work the same way. And who wants to battle the lawyers at MS on this one? The settlement that Sun reached was in 2001 and MS is just now complying?

Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the

[TALlama]

Alright, you can go ahead and make your millions supporting Win98. But here's a few less painful ways to make a living:

1) Break your own legs in front of audiences. Every night.
2) Test new versions of salt and its ability to make paper cuts hurt.
3) Test the newest Windows UIs until your eyes bleed. Part time only; no one could do an eight-hour day.
4) Try to get Mobsters to pay protection money.
5) Become a mercenary and invade China. Alone.
6) Do an undercover report on how to get out of a Mexican Prison by doing so first hand.

Good luck!

Truly an American Icon

[ENOENT]

Specifically, an ugly 2D icon that makes Mac users howl with laughter.

Re:Won't this make Win98 abandonware?

[Haeleth]

Yes, it will make Win98 abandonware.

Unfortunately the term "abandonware" has no legal meaning; it will still be illegal to distribute unauthorised copies of the program.

their lips moved

[twitter]

They retired them because they did not want to get them into compliance and spend the resources on those packages.

Right, they had no intentions of improving or modifying W98SE. In fact, new sales must be so low it was time to shoot it anyway. So nice of them to blame Sun for what they obviously indended from the start. It's so much better than saying that 98 simply sucked, like they said about 95 and 3.1 and you get the picture. Oh wait, they did say that 98 sucks.

As with most MS settlements, they win even when they lose.

As with most Microsoft statements, it was a lie even when partially factual.

Love my Win98 why get rid of it?

[elf]

I run win98 on my desktop (read game machine and hard drive server). I run win98 dual boot on my laptop with linux. Win98 runs all the games I want, it runs opera, it runs AIM, and it runs my email client. It runs perl, it runs emacs. It connects and shares an internet connection, it manages my hard drives, cdroms, printers etc for my home based network. That's all I need out of it. Anything else I'll do under linux.

I find my win98 installation to be fairly secure. Unless I try and screw it up (ie run an unknown email attachement I was sent by someone I don't trust) it's fine. No services to worry about, no random open ports to be exploited, really unless I try to have the machine hacked it seems perfectly safe.

Plus, it's paid for. I have yet to be given a compelling reason to upgrade to a new version of windows. MS not supporting it any more? So what. It's ran reasonably fine the past 5 years. I'm not surprised MS wants to get rid of it, there's no icentive for there customers to replace it.

--
Michael Feuell

Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the

[gellenburg]

Well...

You actually own the car.

You don't own Win98. It's licensed to you by M$.

As the owner of my car, it's my choice what parts I want to be in it (within reason of course).

As the owner of Win98, it's their choice whether they want to offer support.

Go FreeBSD.

It doesn't force upgrades.

[BoomerSooner]

You can still use your product, MS is just shelving the ability for you to get it. This was on the MSDN site a while ago. Here's the text:

Subscriber Download content will be retired on December 23rd
Due to a settlement agreement reached in January 2001, Microsoft is phasing out the Microsoft Virtual Machine from its products. As of 12:01 AM Pacific Time December 23rd, 2003, we will phase out several product families, and remove the Microsoft Virtual Machine from others. The major product families that will no longer be available are:

BackOffice Server 2000
MapPoint 2002
Office 2000 Suite and Products
Office XP Developer
SQL Server 7.0
Windows 98

Although these products will no longer be available for distribution from Microsoft, they can still be used in accordance with the terms of your MSDN Subscription license agreement.

Disastrous

[Effugas]

There are millions of users out there still running Windows 98. There may very well be more users of 98 than XP. Pulling 98 off MSDN means it will become significantly harder for developers to test their code on the platform that still large numbers of users have.

This is utterly disastrous. Companies that say there are risks of working with Linux should see what it means to work with Sun.

--Dan

one advantage to Win98 you missed

[ruebarb]

I used Win 98 for most of my stuff cause I like some of the older 6.22 games, and they never seemed to run worth a damn on Win2000 - so I stayed with Win 98 -

The funny thing is, I'm also running Zonealarm and a private FW, but it's nice to know the next time some mega XP worm launches it won't affect me too badly...

RB

Woo Hoo! Safe again!

[Zygote-IC-]

I was reading down the list, scared to death that I would have to upgrade, but I don't see Microsoft BOB anywhere on there.
SAFE AGAIN!!

Microsoft "retries"?

[siskbc]

I read that as "Microsoft Retries Windows 98" and I thought, "Didn't they learn the first time around?"

No, the first time around they used "abort" and "fail."

Re:Things I wish Microsoft would retire

[DA-MAN]

> Ahh, if only MS hadn't crushed netscape we might actually have a standard that is actually followed (rather than re-written as MS sees fit).

*aHeM* Netscape, pre-Microsoft-killing, was not anywhere near being standard. The last version of Netscape that supported the standards properly was probably Netscape 3.01. After that they too tried to pull Microsofts game on Microsoft, embrace/extend/etc. However Microsoft ultimately won due to the tight grip on the desktop.

Final Security Patches Released for Windows 98

[khamar]

Of course, the real issue here is ongoing updates for software bugs - most of which are security patches. In the absence of Microsoft providing these patches for Windows 98, the community has released a series of patches for Windows 98 that are not available from Microsoft. These critical patches are available from http://linuxiso.org/

I still use Windows98 (and I am sure others do to)

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not intended as flame-bait or an "My OS is better than yours" statement.

I still use Windows98.

And in case you are wondering, I have also been a Sysadmin and various levels of technical support over the years. I have used various unices for my personal computers for both research and play. And all the different versions of Windows.. my conclusion is that for my day-to-day usage of a computer, Windows98 works best for me. It seems to be the best (and worse?) of all the other versions. There are uses still for MSDOS and the old designed Windows OS. I have, and continue to locate software that gives WindowsXP fits. And I have to be able to play Diablo, Quake and use older software titles. Win98 runs everything I need.

Multiple users? Don't have 'em. It is just me. So it makes managing my stuff easier.

XP and 98 were designed with different intended uses, yet both run 16-bit and 32-bit applications. So I figure I am pretty safe until 64-bit applications become the norm.. but then again, I understand that processors will have a 32-bit emulation ability.. so I am safe for a while, and the older hardware will become cheaper than a dinner for your family at McDonalds. And the software to run on it as free as the bandwidth that I use to locate it on the internet.

Never more stable than NT

[msgmonkey]

NT3/4 was always rock solid compared to Win95/98/SE/ME. Sure it was never the thing to run for games but you can't even compare the two when it came to stability.

In the name of security

[PetoskeyGuy]

"As part of our settlement and license extension with Sun, we can only modify the Microsoft virtual machine until Sept. 30, 2004," Goodhew said. "After that date we will not be able to modify the virtual machine for any reason, including security. We will not ship products that include a piece of software we cannot provide security fixes for."

Interesting, that could be a valid point. What is the turn-around for SUN on security issues? I'm sure there must be some, but I've never heard of them. Certainly not the weekly holes and patches that seem to be released for your basic Microsoft applications.

What the judge said is that they had to use SUN's one-true-Java. Rather then change their applications to use the standard SUN Java, they decided to scrap them. Litigation took so long that some of these programs are close to their end of life anyway. How Childish.

He also forgot the last line:

[commodoresloat]

"Which is nice."

Should be Win Me, not 98

[aaaurgh]

I've had more grief over the years from Me users than 95 and 98 users put together - they should keep 98 and drop Me.

IMO the damned thing is so twitchy and unstable it should never have been released, whereas 98 by comparison just keeps on going, just like NT4 SP6a which I believe to be far more stable than either 2K or XP.

Nooooooo

[POds]

I know for slashdot the subject is a little weird, but i find 98 quite good. I mean, i run it fine and it hardly ever crashes. Some programs are worse than others and then its not MSs fault (although better memory protection may be needed) but 3rd party apps.

Thats a damn shame they had to stop supporting it. How many people stil use it? I know of a few and i think i'd rather use it thanx XP, but then, i'd rather use linux than anything else.

Re:I have Win98 in this gateway I'm using

[Penguin's Advocate]

Try linux.
No, seriously, this isn't a joke or a crazy linux zealot trying to push something on you.
If you are using win98 and you can't afford 2k, you're better off using linux.
There is no reason anyone on earth should be forced to use the intense migraine that is windows 98

Re:Yah I still use 98

[d34thm0nk3y]

Actually, Microsoft has historically treated programmers pretty well. The whole reason most of the software on the planet is for Windows is because of this.

Anybody who says that raw c++ is easier than VB is on crack! Microsofts whole business model is based on making it easy for people to build software for the platform.

I write business apps in Python (and VB) using COM and I have to say that it is actually pretty neat as long as your company is already willing to pay the MS Office tax.

Re:I don't understand...

[trg83]

>Sure it doesn't beat my Linux boxes which have stayed up for years at a time, but it's no where near the "crashing all the time" reports that I've read.

Of course, considering the recent reports about kernel bugs, unless your Linux box is sitting unconnected to any networks, years of uptime may not make you the smartest admin. Just an observation.

Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the

[Brandybuck]

You don't own Win98. It's licensed to you by M$.

Let me put this as politely as I can: bullshit!

I don't own the copyright to Windows, but I damned well own my copy of it and the CD it came on. The software industry pretends otherwise, but the reality says differently. The only reason why they've gotten away with it is because the courts have ignored the situation.

When you walk into a store, pick up a box that says "Windows XP", see a price tag that says "$199", walk to the sales counter, hand over $199 plus tax, and receive a receipt that says "Windows XP", ...you have purchased a copy of Windows XP. There's no other way to interpret the transaction. Subsequent dialogs presented to you during installation are irrelevent. No where on the box, during the sales transaction, or on the sales receipt does it say "license to use Windows XP".

It's like buying a fork. You may not have the copyright to the design on the fork, but you still the owner of the fork. You can use it, throw it away, give it to a friend, or sell it at a garage sale.

I have stopped buying commercial software for this reason. They are engaging in illegal bait and switch. I've got no problems if they tell me up front at the time of purchase that I'm not really buying the software. At least that's honesty. But I'm sick and tired of the outside of the box saying "product" and the inside saying "fooled you, it's really a license".

XP full of Spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, overly critical astroturfers seem to be out in the droves.

• WMP allows Microsoft to individually track what DVD movies are watched
• Supercookies bypass all of the new privacy and P3P protections
• EULA (End User License Agreement) for a security defect fix gives Microsoft complete control over your computer
• Users have no choice but to send Microsoft information about their computer configuration

It works both ways, folks...

[Reziac]

Well, I can't help it that you linux types can't figure out how to run Windows ;)

Seriously, in *every* case where someone complains that their Windows setup is unstable, I've found one of three factors is actually at fault:

1) Crap hardware and/or drivers
2) Lack of basic maintenance (frex, defragging)
3) Installing tons of crapware/spyware, and/or uninstalling apps via the "random deletia" method

The average Windows install, with *ZERO* maintenance and much abuse, lasts about three years before it reaches a point where most Joe Users think it needs a reformat. Meaning it's gotten slow, and crashes more than once a week or so. (Tho so far I've only seen ONE Windows setup that I couldn't quickly clean up and restore to good working order, *without* a reformat. Reinstalling stuff is against my religion. :)

Serious question: Can a default linux install survive three years of daily abuse and neglect, by clueless users who nonetheless stick their fingers into everything in reach, and still be functional enough to be merely "annoying" (the state at which most folk give up on a neglected WinSetup)??

Linux proponents are always saying that anyone who thinks linux is hard to get running good are just ignorant. Consider that the reverse is also true -- that anyone who can't get Windows to run stable is equally ignorant.

Because frankly, folks, it just ain't that hard.