Slashdot Mirror


Technology Of Current, Future Consoles Analyzed

ban25 writes "There's an interesting article at Ace's Hardware with an in-depth analysis of the technology behind the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube, plus hints to the future. It covers the CPUs and GPUs of each of the systems, and also has an interesting discussion about embedded DRAM and its role in consoles compared to the high-speed discrete memories found on all of today's top PC graphics cards. The other part of the article covers the next generation of systems and, in particular, the Xbox 2 and PS3. The recent IBM/MS agreement is discussed, as well as the chances of the Xbox 2 having a PowerPC inside, or perhaps even a CELL derivative. On the PS3 side of things, the piece goes into some detail about the patent that turned up last year on CELL."

44 comments

  1. Why can't console makers by Kethinov · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why can't console makers start making their high profile games for the PC? I'd love to be able to play Metroid Prime or Final Fantasy 10 on my computer and no matter how good those games are I'd never buy a game console. They're too limiting. I realize that I'm in the minority, but I think there'd be profit in this.

    --
    You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
    1. Re:Why can't console makers by Nasarius · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because they sell a lot more to console gamers than PC gamers. It's just not worth changing all your code, except maybe for XBox games, which use DirectX.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    2. Re:Why can't console makers by GaimeGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Uh, because there'd be pretty much no point in buyinig consoles if all the great console games were on the PC. Plus, it's not worth it to change the code for the PC, and then release it, when games don't sell nearly as well on the PC as they do on consoles. A title selling 700,000 on the PC is like a title selling a couple million on a console. It just isn't worth it to spend the resources to port console games to PC and give the consoles less value.

    3. Re:Why can't console makers by bconway · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? Every PC game on the shelf at Best Buy has a PS2/X-Box counterpart. Halo, UT2003, Max Payne 1 and 2, KOTOR, etc. The list goes on and on.

      --
      Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
    4. Re:Why can't console makers by onallama · · Score: 1
      ...no matter how good those games are I'd never buy a game console. They're too limiting.

      More limiting than not even being able to play those games at all?

      Consoles may be limited compared to the latest and greatest PCs, but their beauty is that they're stable platforms for both developers and users. Developers don't have to worry about getting their games to run well on an impossibly-wide range of hardware combinations, users don't have to stuff in faster processors and extra memory and download week-old, barely-tested drivers just to be able to run the latest games. Put the disc in and It Just Works.

    5. Re:Why can't console makers by clu76 · · Score: 1

      Why do you consider game consoles to be too limiting? I used to prefer PC over the console, but that was 10 years ago.

      --
      the cosmos in 20 words or less: thumbuki.com
    6. Re:Why can't console makers by Mike+Mentalist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd love to be able to play Metroid Prime or Final Fantasy 10 on my computer and no matter how good those games are I'd never buy a game console. They're too limiting.

      Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. In what way is a console limiting? It plays games as that is what it was designed for.

      A TV is no different in that respect and neither is a chair or a cheese sandwich.

      --
      I put my books on Amazon, Smashwords, Demonoid, ISOHunt and Pirate Bay. Search for 'Michael Cargill'
    7. Re:Why can't console makers by KBV · · Score: 1

      I would say that you, and the two other guys who think this might have a problem convincing the game developers of this. If you want to play games like Metroid Prime, Zelda, Ratchet & Clank etc. etc. You would have to buy a console. Besides, consoles in my book are becoming more and more like a PC. The PS2 has a broadband adapter and a harddrive, the gamecube has a broadban adapter for net play. And don't even get me started on the Xbox. Maybe this is what they want, move games more and more away from everyday PCs - which in the long run would make it less expensive for us mortals that don't have the cash to fork over 400$ for a new graphics card everytime someone decides that it's time to up the graphics on the PC *cough*Doom 3*cough* Just my humble opinion.

      --
      Simply retarded
    8. Re:Why can't console makers by wed128 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to mention the price difference...$199 vs $2k

    9. Re:Why can't console makers by xgamer04 · · Score: 1

      The Gamecube has a total of 1 series that works with the broadband adapter (Phantasy Star Online)...unless you're talking about the Warp-pipe project...

      --
      When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
    10. Re:Why can't console makers by cgranade · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I find consoles much less limiting, since game makers can make assuptions about what's going on and just focus on the game. On a PS1/2/X, for example, everyone has a controller with four triggers, four shoulder buttons, two analogs (excepting early PS1s) and four directions, plus a start-select pair. No need to detect if there's a joystick or keyboard or what. Furthermore, all PS2s are equally compatible, so the game makers don't have to "scale down" graphics for less capable systems.
      The end result? Less time spent on interface details and hardware detection, and more time spent making good games.

      --

      #define DRM chmod 000

    11. Re:Why can't console makers by womprat · · Score: 1

      The games that work with warpipe all work with the broadband adapter just fine on their own. They just are designed for LAN play only and not internet.
      Besides the discussion was about current and future console hardware.

    12. Re:Why can't console makers by CNERD · · Score: 1

      If they ported all the games to PC, it would defeat the point of consoles.

    13. Re:Why can't console makers by xgamer04 · · Score: 1

      You obviously don't understand what I was referring to. Please RTFP.

      --
      When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
    14. Re:Why can't console makers by Acidic_Diarrhea · · Score: 1

      You said that Phantasy Star Online was the only game that made use of the broadband adapter, ignoring the Warp Pipe project. This is incorrect. Mario Kart also makes use of the broadband adapter for LAN play, without use of the Warp Pipe project. You see, you didn't say Phantasy Star Online was the only game to use the broadband adapter for Internet play. You said it was the only game to use the broadband adapter, end of statement. So, you were incorrect. The person who responded to you was correct. Your rudeness looks all the more silly when you are so obviously incorrect.

      --
      I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
    15. Re:Why can't console makers by Alaric42 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Furthermore, all PS2s are equally compatible. . . ."

      Tell that to Enix and Namco and their Star Ocean 3 and Xenosaga, respectively, both of which ran into problems with some models of PS2s being incompatible because of changes Sony introduced into later runs.

    16. Re:Why can't console makers by SuperMo0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not what he was talking about. This is about a console game FIRST, such as Final Fantasy X or Metroid, being ported to PC. The ones you mentioned were PC games being ported to consoles, which happens all the time. Not EVERYONE has computers powerful enough to run all these neat new games, including myself, so there's a market in getting people to get them on a console when they couldn't otherwise play it.

    17. Re:Why can't console makers by KAMiKAZOW · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd never buy a game console. They're too limiting.

      What do you think a game console is for? Cleaning your dishes?
      I find desktop computers too limiting. Yeah, I can surf the internet, write letters and so on, but in my opinion ALMOST ALL CURRENT PC GAMES SUCK. I don't need 374732 tactical ego shooters. I don't need as many sport games.
      That's why I bought a GameCube. I want fun games - not the same crap over and over again. In this autumn/winter season more great games have been and will be released for GameCube than for PCs in a year. Soul Calibur 2, Viewtiful Joe, F-Zero GX, SSX 3, Tales of Symphonia, Metal Gear Solid - Twin Snakes, Baten Kaitos, Mario Kart - Double Dash, Sonic Heroes, Final Fantasy - Crystal Chronicles, Phantasy Star Online 3, Zelda - Four Swords Plus, True Crime, Prince of Persia - Sands of Time (also available on PC),...
      And GB Player owners can even add lots of GBA games to the list.

      Yeah right, tons of great games are very limiting....

    18. Re:Why can't console makers by SuperMo0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK, maybe they're not all COMPATIBLE, but they all have the same processor speed and shit. Try running UT2003 on a Pentium II with 400 mHz of speed (which isn't all that old, really).

    19. Re:Why can't console makers by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ..and that's where it's heading already quite fast, doing almost everything on high level languages and through libraries provided by hw maker, so there's less and less lowlevel freaking with newer consoles and going to be even less with the coming crop of new consoles. so basically what this ends up in if you're smart when doing the design decisions is that you don't lose anything by going with doing the game so that it will be very easy to port.

      however, as artificial limitations on where you release the game have already shown up i don't think they'll ever release all the games on all the systems(even if porting it was just one day effort by one guy). many current games come now though with release for all ps2,xbox,gc and pc(with these games the marketing seems to be the biggest budget hurdle though, so it makes only sense to sell it for every system at the same time).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    20. Re:Why can't console makers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      On a PS1/2/X, for example, everyone has a controller with four triggers, four shoulder buttons, two analogs (excepting early PS1s) and four directions, plus a start-select pair. No need to detect if there's a joystick or keyboard or what.

      On a PC, people have the freedom to choose whatever style of controller they want, instead of being limited to what the console designers liked. DirectInput abstracts away most hardware differences, so all game designers need to do is provide an interface for controller configuration.

      Furthermore, all PS2s are equally compatible, so the game makers don't have to "scale down" graphics for less capable systems.

      All PS2s are equally limited, so the game makers are unable to "scale up" graphics for more capable systems. It cuts both ways.

      The only thing consoles have that PCs don't is a wide variety of games. Which takes us back to the original poster's point. PCs have FPSes that make most current console games look crap. But FPSes account for the vast majority of "good" PC games. Unreal this, Doom that, Deus Whatever. If only game publishers would release all their titles on the PC, they could experience the freedom of programming to the API instead of the hardware, and we could experience some really innovative gaming.

    21. Re:Why can't console makers by bigman2003 · · Score: 1

      Actually, on your list, they all have an XBOX counterpart.

      This is not a coincidence.

      --
      No reason to lie.
    22. Re:Why can't console makers by Jad+LaFields · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's neat... you just entirely missed his point. Or angrily made it for him while insulting him. If he wanted to play "374732 tactical ego shooters" then he wouldn't be complaining about console game makers not porting their software like "Metroid Prime or Final Fantasy 10", would he? Dumbass.

      And to throw my own two cents in about the "limitations" of consoles that some people have been complaining about: I remember eagerly awaiting the port of GTA: Vice City to the PC after playing it on a friend's PS2 -- I already have a decent computer (its over 3 years old, but runs modern PC games fine) so I wasn't about to run out and buy a PS2 (and hell, I guess I'd need a TV, too) just to play the game. Anyway, once I got it, I realized that it really feels like the game was meant to be played on a computer. I could crank the resolution to the max, up the texture detail, aim with a mouse which is so much better than the stupid aiming system on the PS2 (which takes absolutely no skill), no loading times.... I can't play the game on my friend's PS2 anymore, it's too painful. What's more, if I were so inclined I could go and download the multiplayer mod for the game (which may be only for GTA3, don't remember).

      Yes, there are limitations to the PC, most notably the QA nightmare that so many different setups creates, but having "all current PC games" suck shouldn't be one of them. Sure, Soul Caliber 2 would be crap without a gamepad... but I'd immediately go out and buy one if they released the game for the PC.

      Damn, imagine if they had designed that game like the best PC developers do and make it easily moddable (and maybe they did, I don't know). Imagine if they had a simple scripting engine you could use to make up new moves and combos... or if you could go to some site and download new skins, costumes, or even new fighters that enterprising players created?

      Consoles are moving in this direction, with hard drives and internet access, but they are not there yet. And until they are, it would be nice if more developers took advantage of the strengths that the PC platform has.

      --
      [SIG] It's like putting a moose in the blender -- a recipe for disaster!
    23. Re:Why can't console makers by Thing+1 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      A title selling 700,000 on the PC is like a title selling a couple million on a console.

      I don't understand. Are you saying margins are better on the PC? Or are you saying that, given equivalent marketing dollars, the PC sells less units?

      And are the two circles really similar sets, or somewhat disjoint? I.e., if you release for both, might you sell a couple million on the console and 700,000 on the PC?

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    24. Re:Why can't console makers by Thing+1 · · Score: 2, Funny
      A TV is no different in that respect and neither is a chair or a cheese sandwich.

      I find my cheese sandwiches very limiting. They take a lot of work to cook just right, and I can't have them and eat them too.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    25. Re:Why can't console makers by CrystalChronicles · · Score: 1

      "No need to detect if there's a joystick or keyboard or what" A computer without a keyboard is like a console without a controller. "PS2s are equally compatible, so the game makers don't have to "scale down" graphics for less capable systems." Only problem here is that consoles are the less capable system when it comes to graphics. PC games can scale to much higher resolutions than consoles can even at the highest supported HDTV standard.

    26. Re:Why can't console makers by KBV · · Score: 1

      The only reason for the limit on net-games for the Game Cube is that Nintendo dosn't want to support net-play since they don't find the technology good enough yet.

      --
      Simply retarded
    27. Re:Why can't console makers by Alban · · Score: 1

      Yes, margins are better on the PC. On consoles, publishers pay royalties to the console maker (sony, nintendo, microsoft) on all their titles. This isn't the case on PC.

    28. Re:Why can't console makers by cybergrue · · Score: 1

      Why can't console makers start making their high profile games for the PC? #snip# I'd never buy a game console. They're too limiting.
      This is exactly the reason why these games are console only. There are too many varaitions between PC hardware for the developers to handle. The cost of testing a cutting edge game on all the combinations of hardware that it could be expected to run on was getting far too expensive. I recall a comment made by a manager at a large game developer (Activision iirc) saying that the profit margins in PC game development were so slim that a single call to tech support would wipe out the profit for that unit. I havn't even mentioned losses due to piracy either. Compare this with the mass market console with built in drm. Millions of (nearly) identical units with identical specs. Now which one would you like to develop for.
      I use to be a PC gamer myself a few years back, then I saw the writing on the wall, and bought myself a console

    29. Re:Why can't console makers by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      They're too limiting.

      $100 for a console is limiting?

      Think of it as an external self-contained special graphics card and a joystick; by that measure, even the X-Box at full price is a good deal.

    30. Re:Why can't console makers by mausmalone · · Score: 1

      I'd love to be able to play Metroid Prime or Final Fantasy 10 on my computer and no matter how good those games are I'd never buy a game console. They're too limiting.

      Sound's like your PC is the thing holding you back from playing the games you wanna play. Even if you think a console is limiting, they're cheaper than graphics cards, and they have a longer life-cycle. Maybe you should think of picking one up.

      --
      -=-=-=-=-=
      I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
    31. Re:Why can't console makers by key45 · · Score: 1

      If only game publishers would release all their titles on the PC, they could experience the freedom of programming to the API instead of the hardware, and we could experience some really innovative gaming.

      Nice theory, but all the PC game developers I've worked with end up spending the first part of the project programming to the API and the second part tracking down hardware incompatibilities. I know more than one game with code filled with stuff like:

      #if (NVIDIA)
      DoThisGraphicsTrick()
      #elif (ATI)
      DoThisOtherGraphicsTrick()
      #else
      DoTheBasicAPIThing()
      #endif


      It's just impossible to get code that runs well on a majority of todays Win32 PCs by simply "programming to the API."

    32. Re:Why can't console makers by xgamer04 · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry I have to completely spell everything out for you, but many speakers of the English language apparently don't get implied meaning very well. PSO is the only series that is an "online" game. When I say "broadband adapter," what I mean is "broadband," not "lan," although it obviously means that as well, but that wording is obviously somewhat ambiguous.

      The original reply to my post was at least as jackassish as you imply mine was, and yes, I get somewhat pissed when people extract some sort of strange meaning out of something that I say with a twisted logic that doesn't accurately reflect the fact that what I or anyone else posts may or may not be the extent of the knowledge of that subject on the poster's part.

      I don't understand why you are defending this "womprat" character, since he/she obviously has more problems with grammar and spelling than I do. I also question your understanding of getting a point across. You state no less than three times in your post that I am "incorrect", two of which have added emphasis on them. You also say I am incorrect because I "ignored" the Warp Pipe project. I did not. Very clearly did I state in the original post my knowledge of this. It was also a somewhat ambiguous usage, but I was hoping for people with comprehension skills beyond that of picture-book readers. I am sorry for expecting so much.

      Please do not take this very seriously, although I have my doubts that this point will get across. If you want to pick apart niggling issues of a post on a web forum, please do it with someone other than me, or I will do the same to you.

      --
      When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
    33. Re:Why can't console makers by prockcore · · Score: 1

      I'd love to be able to play Metroid Prime or Final Fantasy 10 on my computer and no matter how good those games are I'd never buy a game console. They're too limiting.

      Yeah, they're limitted to playing the games you really really want to play.. how sucky of them.

    34. Re:Why can't console makers by Acidic_Diarrhea · · Score: 1
      You sad little simpleton,
      Look here: when I said "You said that Phantasy Star Online was the only game that made use of the broadband adapter, ignoring the Warp Pipe project." that last bit about the Warp Pipe project was referring to the fact that you were ignoring the Warp Pipe project for your summary of what games made use of the broadband adapter. This is quite obvious and cannot be taken any other way since I begin that statement very specifically by saying, "You said." Next up...

      Your original post made it sound like you believed that the only way Mario Kart could be played on a network was through the use of the Warp Pipe project. There was no clear implication that you understood that Mario Kart could be played on a LAN with the broadband adapter. I think the person who replied to you was just trying to get that information out there - which it seemed you did not have. Your reply, rather than saying something like, "Yes, I know. I was implying that PSO was the only game playable through the Internet, without aid of the Warp Pipe project." you had to get rude.

      Your insults of me don't really bother me. I know how educated I am and don't need to prove myself to someone on Slashdot. You say that with proper reading comprehension, it is possible to derive from this "The Gamecube has a total of 1 series that works with the broadband adapter (Phantasy Star Online)." 'that you meant works with the broadband adapter through the Internet.' This is just wrong. Don't try to tell me that everything one needs to derive that idea is already in that statement. It is not.

      Do what you want "to me." I'm not intimidated by someone like you at all.

      --
      I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
    35. Re:Why can't console makers by G�tz · · Score: 1
      Try running UT2003 on a Pentium II with 400 mHz of speed (which isn't all that old, really).
      Hmm, a Pentium II CPU clocked at 0.4 Hz? I'd rather use an IBM PC with shiny 4.7 MHz.
  2. Evolution? Nay! Revolution! by Peoii · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's the same ol' same ol' in most of those.... They point at "more power", well duh. Of course systems are going to get more and more powerful, otherwise I'd wait for things to come out still on my good ol' Atari 2600.

    What we really need is a revolution in gaming technology for the console. Something that provides a new level of interactivity, be it from a 3D projection, to a Virtual Helmet set. ANYTHING would be an improvement over the joystick games of current. I mean look at it this way, we've had the same type of games coming out for years now, nothing new, nothing challenging as far as pushing the limits of what we can do. Why not give the home console gamer something they'll be addicted to? Perhaps an interactive environment where we're pumping sensations to them that they actually FEEL, SMELL or even TASTE. To long has the gaming world been in our rumble packs, ears, and eyes, something has to push forward, and I just wonder when the gaming companies will notice that.

    1. Re:Evolution? Nay! Revolution! by cr0sh · · Score: 1
      I doubt you will see (at least in the near future) 3D projection, and you will probably never see a VR HMD setup.

      Back in 1995, when the Sega Genesis was all the rage, along with the hope (hype?) of VR, Sega actually had a prototype HMD system. Everyone in the homebrew and consumer VR realm was a-goggle, with the idea of a cheap and hackable VR HMD with full 3DOF mag-tracking capabilities. It never saw the light of day (though some people own the prototypes today). Why?

      Mainly, one word: liability.

      HMDs present one obstacle that has yet to be overcome, that of "simulator sickness". A large percentage of the population cannot deal with the images their eyes and brains are receiving (the movement, etc), and sounds - conflicting with the fact that they are sitting down. Some get nausea, some so bad they, ahem, puke. Then there are the morons who will try to stand up and walk around, then fall or trip...

      All of this would eventually get the manufacturer (ie, in the old case, Sega) sued. Other manufactures tried (and continue to try) to sell HMDs to the masses (ie, Forte VFX-1, Phillips SCUBA, IO-Glasses, Victormaxx's Stuntmaster), but they all flop(ed) (either due to cost, lack of demand, simulator sickness, resolution/field-of-view issues).

      Resolution and FOV issues aside, the issue of simulator sickness is always going to be there. There have been notable attempts to minimize or eliminate it. Two come to mind:

      The Flogiston Flostation was a chair/projector unit devised by a guy in Texas using a grant from NASA to design a VR system for training astronauts. The main feature was the special chair which reproduced the feelings of weightlessness by reducing body pressure points in a special reclined position. This weightlessness feeling helped to divorce the head from the body, so that simulator sickness was reduced. This, coupled with a full wraparound screen (a high-resolution rear projected sphere that fitted over the users head), high-powered sound system, and on a few prototypes, a full-motion platform system - provided for a very nice (from what I have read) virtual experience.

      The other system I remember about was a type of "helmet" that saw beta testing, that stimulated the vestibular system via electric currents. Using a patented technology based on earlier, less advanced medical systems used to treat vertigo patients - the device would sit on your head, electrodes place on the forehead and just behind each ear would contact the skin. Computer software (and the beta of it was to develop games using the SDK provided) could control how you "felt" in the game or simulation - whether you were tilted, moving, falling, etc - in effect, stimulating you (virtually) the same as the simulation did, removing one of the major component problems which causes simulator sickness. I can't remember the name of the company, it went under (one of the early VR/.COM busts) - and I don't know what happenned to the beta units. The patents should still be available, though. I also know that I posted on Slashdot around 1998-2000 when the company was still around regarding this tech, so you might look it up.

      I think these two technologies, if they could be made cheaper, would go a long way to bring VR into the home. Unfortunately, right now probably the cheapest the whole system (HMD, chair, and stimulator) could be sold would be around $2000.00 - and you still haven't put in the cost of the reality simulator console and software...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  3. Well... by hookedup · · Score: 2, Informative

    The future of the xbox has many unknowns, latest rumor going around is the xbox2 will have a proprietary disc format, much like the GC's. Why you ask? To prevent piracy.

    According to an ad on microsofts career website, the Microsoft's Xbox team is seeking an engineer "to manage the design and development of the Xbox Game Disc for the next generation Xbox console", with the job description going on to mention anti-piracy as the first in a list of key factors for the new game disc specification.

    Article here about it

  4. It's non-trivial to take a console game to PC by grahamwest · · Score: 1

    Taking a console game and making it run on PC is usually very feasible from a purely technical point of view. There are, however, four things that stand in the way of turning a console game into a PC game.

    Firstly, the art is designed for 640x480 on a TV. This means it usually looks bad at 1024x768 on a PC monitor and PC gamers react very negatively to bad art because they spend a bunch of money on their systems in order to have their games look as beautiful as possible.

    Secondly, the game is designed to be played with a console gamepad. To sell a game on PC it needs to play well with keyboard and mouse - some people have gamepads but the vast majority do not. This can mean making changes to a lot of game systems.

    Thirdly, PCs vary in their specifications. The game must be able to run at different frame rates, at different resolutions and so on. Loading and saving works differently. Data may be coming off CD or off the hard drive. Users can task switch away from the game. Basically, the environment is just different. Depending on how the game code is written these things may be easy to accomodate, or extremely hard.

    Lastly, the business environment for PC games is different. You need a much bigger tech support department (all those users with their disparate configurations). The retail channel is somewhat different to work with (margins, major buyers, cost structure, packaging, promotional material).

    The bottom line from all of this is that it takes a bunch of money and time to turn a console game into a PC game that anyone would actually want to pay for. Either you do it after the console version is done, or you do it along the way by keeping the game cross-platform. You also need a different set of business resources than you do for console games. It's unclear that, for most console games, the return on investment would exceed the costs of this. Perhaps more importantly the effort spent on PC versions can instead be spent making the console version better.

    In my opinion the above are why you don't see many console games come to PC. That's not to say it never happens, of course. Most of the conversions that I'm aware of were done by relatively small developers well after the console version was known to be successful and in many cases the PC versions didn't sell well and were negatively perceived basically because of their console-ness.

    --
    Graham