Israeli Gov't Begins Testing Mandrake Linux

DJStealth writes "According to this article on Arutz 7/Israel National News, the Israeli Gov't is beginning to move away from Microsoft and is testing localized versions of Mandrake Linux in the Treasury dept. as the contract with MS expires this month. This all despite a recent defense ministry contact with MS."

Comments

Is this a growing trend in business?

[tx_kanuck]

FTA: "Microsoft heaped scorn on the Commerce Department's decision to abandon Office for the software alternative."

From other places "We'll sue our customers so that they have no money to buy our products"
"We'll charge everyone a licence fee for OSS that we don't own"

Evidently the economy has become an exercise in how much abuse consumers will take. I wonder how long it will take before consumers sit up and go "WTF Mate?"

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Crypto Gnome]

Unfortunately, in showing your surprise, you're also showing just how naive you have been to date.

These are all aspects of "what the market will bear" which has been standard business practice since something like the 80s (or is that 70s?)

There is zero concept of "fair market value" in the business world today, only "how hard can we screw our customers before they're no longer customers of ours?".

Ask any economist, this is "the standard business model" today.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[KoolDude]

Ask any economist, this is "the standard business model" today.

Nope. We're talking about Microsoft here. They *never* stick to the standards. :)

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Anonymous Coward]

Feh. It's bad news if you work for IBM in the US. It's fantastic news if you're an Asian IBM contractee. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and if they can do the job for less more power too them. If they can't, someone at IBM will get their ass kicked, and the next round of contracts will be given to US locals.

I, for one, am sick of the anti-Asian xenophobia that rears its head on Slashdot fairly regularly.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[jsebrech]

I wonder how long it will take before consumers sit up and go "WTF Mate?"

I wonder how long it will take before people will realise how insulting the word "consumer" is as a label for a customer. Businesses used to deal with customers, and treat them well, now they deal with consumers, and so all they feel they need to do is produce stuff for consumption (and are insulted when people refuse to consume it, as exemplified by the RIAA). This dehumanization of business is what makes the corporate world suck so much nowadays.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[AKnightCowboy]

It's not necessarily a bad thing, and if they can do the job for less more power too them. If they can't, someone at IBM will get their ass kicked, and the next round of contracts will be given to US locals.

These U.S. companies never did learn to think even 10 years down the road. If you start exporting high tech jobs to Asia then who is going to be left to buy your products over here?

I, for one, am sick of the anti-Asian xenophobia that rears its head on Slashdot fairly regularly.

I think people have very good reason to hate the exportattion of their jobs to Asians. The Asian workers who are willing to work for what in America is less than minimum wage only serve to drag down everyone along with them instead of demanding better salaries for themselves. The Asian countries never seem to have went through their industrial revolution and unionization era so they don't seem to have many of the laws that protect us against corporations looking for cheap slave labor.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[drsmithy]

Ask any economist, this is "the standard business model" today.

Uh, any economist should tell you that "what the market will bear" is one of the fundamentals of capitalism - it's hardly something that's just popped up in the last few decades.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Afrosheen]

I, too, feel offended when newscasters or the public in general refers to myself or businesses as 'consumers'. It's really dehumanizing and makes one feel as though they're nothing more than a digit in a database, a statistic on a chart. Consumer is fundamentally insulting because it feels as though you're not afforded the same rights as you might have had under the customer label.

The customer is never wrong, but the consumer is never right.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Afrosheen]

The main factor here in having lower wages for Asians in general is cost of living. When, in Thailand, you can get a fresh bowl of rice and seafood soup for less than $1 US, and a nice apartment with air conditioning and plenty of space costs you around $150-$200 a month (depending on region), how can US companies compete on labor costs? The US has a horribly inflated cost of living compared to asian countries and arguably the quality of life isn't that much better. At least in Thailand you can afford to get dental work done, some people fly there just for that reason. For the price of a root canal here you can fly to Bangkok and get all the work you need done professionally.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[be-fan]

Pick up a basic economics book to realize why you're full of shit. There are few things economists agree on, or are willing to make definitive statements on, but the "exporting jobs to furriners" is one of them.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[be-fan]

Interesting you should mention Thailand. I was actually born in Bangkok (my parents were living there at the time), and have been back many times since. You're absolutely right about the cost of living. At first, I was embarrassed about giving the bellboy a $0.50 tip, until I realized how cheap everything there was. The quality of life there certainly isn't as high as it is here, for the professional class (which anybody contracted to an American company would be a part of) in Bangkok its not that much different from parts of urban Europe. European standards of living might seem very low to Americans (most households only have a single TV!) but its an entirely livable lifestyle.

Now, as for how the United States can compete with the price of living in other countries, the simple fact is that it doesn't need to. If the cost of living in Thailand is much lower than the US, than jobs that can be exported are exported. So the US does lose hi-tech jobs. On the other hand, that creates a demand for other types of jobs in the US. For example, you'll need new people to handle the communications between the company and teams located in other countries. Its a basic economic principle that the number of jobs lost because of such events is less than the number of jobs gained. Also, remember that Thailand and a number of other asian countries have very quickly growing economies. As an economy grows, the cost of living rises. Eventually, the economy will hit a state where it is no longer profitable to export jobs to the country, because the cost of living is so high. This happened, for example, with Hong Kong, where the per-capita GDP has approached 80% of that of the United States.

Consider a real-world example (that I ripped from an economics text :) The United States has an international agreement to protect textile jobs in the United States. So far, it has saved about 79,000 textile jobs. However, adhering to that agreement costs the country about $16 billion dollars a year in lost revenue in other industries. That means for each job saved, it is costing the US economy $202,000 a year. Also consider NAFTA. When NAFTA was created, there were numerous complaints that it would destroy the US economy, because jobs would be sucked over to Mexico. While many jobs were indeed sucked over to Mexico, many new jobs were created here for Americans.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[sean.peters]

That means for each job saved, it is costing the US economy $202,000 a year.

My heart bleeds for the CEO that would otherwise be making that extra $202k. What, you thought ordinary employees would otherwise be getting that money?

Sean

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[be-fan]

Its not the CEO's making that extra $202,000. Its workers in other industries that either are making lower wages or not getting hired at all.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[be-fan]

Let's try that again. Its not the CEO's who lose the $202,000, its workers in other industries that are either making lower wages or not getting hired at all. Most importantly, its an overall loss to the US GDP.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Artifakt]

It's a fundamental, but taking it out of a broader context is something that has been developing among MBAs and pro-capitalism speakers lately. It's like the principle that there is no cap on potential investment gains. That only makes real sense if two other principles are included - 1. There is no cap on losses either - 2. Even though gain can go arbitrarily high, there are always market forces trying to bring it into line with the rest of the economy.
What the market will bear for a single quarter is not what the market will bear. What the market will bear with the government providing police to enforce it isn't what the market will bear (and isn't capitalism either once the government tries to supercede the invisible hand).

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Artifakt]

One of the posters I've noticed here has a sig that reads (aproximately) "I am not a Consumer, I am a Citizen of this country!". He could probably say this better than I could, but here goes.
A recent /. story was about billboards that pick up on what radio station a driver is listening to, and fine tune advertising acordingly. Those drivers count as consumers for that article. "What makes them consumers?" is my question.
If I turn on a TV, I know to expect commercials. The programs are paid for by commercials. So, unless I was ignorant of some rather basic facts, it could be argued that I have willingly entered a mode of being a consumer, or at least a potential consumer.
Now what's the equivalent for the billboard? I got in a car and traveled. That billboard may or may not pay some tax that may or may not go to help make the road more affordable, given differing state policies, but it surely isn't adding much to the 38c/gallon in state and federal taxes I'm paying for gas.
So, driving down the road is more like HBO than broadcast TV, but I still count as a consumer just the same. I don't purchase things 24 hours a day, but to the people who started calling me a consumer, I am one, 24 hours a day. The opposite of consumption is production. I lead a productive life, and create more than I consume (that's why I am worth taxing). Even when I am doing the opposite of consuming, to these people, I'm a consumer. Maybe that's why it's fundamentally insulting.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

These U.S. companies never did learn to think even 10 years down the road. If you start exporting high tech jobs to Asia then who is going to be left to buy your products over here?

There is no such thing as a US company. All capitalism has are companies--international ones that are not basd on any country. Under capitalism, you don't care about countries. If anything, free trade will ensure that there is no such thing as an American or Canadian or Japanese or whatever corporation. Corporations will be able to move easily to other countries. It wouldn't suprise me if corporations move to another country overnight without letting anyone know (like has happened to some sports teams).

The Asian countries never seem to have went through their industrial revolution and unionization era so they don't seem to have many of the laws that protect us against corporations looking for cheap slave labor.

My theory is that unionization will not occur. There are several reasons for this but perhaps the most important is that unions can't fight for worker rights in the modern era. If you form a union in those countries, the corporation will, on top of trying to crush it, just move to another region/country/continent/etc.

Speaking as a leftist, I don't think unions are the answer to the modern capitalists. Unions simply aren't designed to withstand multinational entities. Unions are very localized and require government laws to support them. When corporations aren't local, and when governments don't care about anyone, it doesn't work well. So what else is there for the workers? I'm working on it :) ...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Swanktastic]

I wonder how long it will take before people will realise how insulting the word "consumer" is as a label for a customer. Businesses used to deal with customers, and treat them well, now they deal with consumers, and so all they feel they need to do is produce stuff for consumption

FYI, a huge number of companies use the terms customer and consumer to mean different things. A customer is a direct buyer of your product. A consumer is the business or person who "consumes" your product. Hence, if I'm making soap, the customer is a grocery store, and the consumer is the family/person that uses the soap. Businesses don't use the term consumer to "dehumanize," they use it for succinctness of communication when describing the buyers of their products. We can't just call everyone in the supply chain a customer regardless of whether we're actually dealing with them.

Speaking of dehumanizing the "customer," probably every single person who posts here calls their customers "users." IMO, that's about the most dehumanizing thing ever.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

What you are saying is happening but not the way you imagine--or your capitalistic economic books talk about. When jobs are lost, other jobs ARE created. But these jobs are often worse than the previous ones. If engineers lose their jobs, they will get another job all right. It just won't be engineering or anything professional. When manufacturing laid off people, they got other jobs (often in the service industry) which were FAR worse (in terms of pay).

Also, cost of living does not necessarily increase with increased trade. I can cite a ton of South American countries that have "benefitted" from trade yet their standard of living is the same (worse in some cases). What you fail to realize--something that capitalist books won't mention--is that the benefit does NOT accrue to the average worker.

American wages, for example, have been almost flat over 30 or 40 years! (I can't remember the stats but they only grew like 4% or something like that--adjusted for inflation of course). In contrast, executive wages have skyrocketed. In the 70's, executives made something like 50x the average worker. Now they make 250x.

There are benefits from trade--I'm not disagreeing on that. But your capitalist economic books will also point out how the benefit from trade can be allocated. If countries A and B are trading, A can get all the benefit, or B can, or they can share it in some manner. Unfortunately for the poorer countries, the benefit accrues to rich countries. Now, replace countries with corporation vs worker, and you'll note that the benefit does NOT accrue to the workers of the world. Instead, the benefit is more likely to accrue to the capitalists and coordinator class (eg. management).

Don't get me wrong: I'm not anti-Asian (I'm originally from there anyway :) ). I'm just against capitalism and it modern incarnation called neo-liberal economics.

My, non-capitalist view, is that USA severly overconsumes. I think USA will, at some point, have to devalue their currency. It is just overvalued and otherwise it won't remain competitive. For instance, if the oil producing countries switched to the Euro, from the "petral-dollar", USA will get hit. Gunpoint capitalism then becomes the norm...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I know you capitalists love to invoke everything, including ownership of the world, to defend yourselves...but can you PLEASE leave physics out of this?

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[be-fan]

What you are saying is happening but not the way you imagine... they got other jobs (often in the service industry) which were FAR worse (in terms of pay).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's not what happened here in the US. In the 1900's, most Americans worked on a farm. When the industrial revolution made farming unprofitable, those workers got better jobs in industry. When industrial jobs got shipped overseas, those people got better jobs in the services industry.

If countries A and B are trading, A can get all the benefit, or B can, or they can share it in some manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>
No it can't. Its a product of the mathematical model describing trade. There is no such thing as uneven trade.

Unfortunately for the poorer countries, the benefit accrues to rich countries.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Its not a factor of trade benifeting richer countries more than poorer countries, but growth being a function of the amount of capital, and richer countries having more capital to begin with.

The problem with the United States is not the capitalist system, but the fact that the government does not do enough income redistribution. 70% of economists believe that the government has a legitimate role in redistributing income, and that the current US imbalance needs to be fixed. Those same economists realize that international trade benifets everyone involved.

Re:Is this a growing trend in business?

[greenhide]

When the industrial revolution made farming unprofitable, those workers got better jobs in industry.

Well, they were better once the workers organized with unions and fought for issues like workplace safety, shorter work weeks, and ant-child labor laws. Or did you not hear the stories about young women losing their fingers to mechanical looms, or thousands of people sick and hungry, crowded 20 something to a room in tenement housing.

Granted, I'm a little rusty on how miserable the lives of farmers were, but I think it's fair to say that being a worker in the USA has always sucked the big one. Most of them are better off than they were in the first half of the 20th century, but most (except women, who are now slowly bridging the salary gap) workers are not better off than they were in the second half of the 20th century. A big part of it has been ridiculous increases in health and other costs, accompanied by a lackluster increase in salary.

I personally agree with you that economic redistribution would probably hep the plight of the worker. Incidentally, it's called socialism (not that there's anything wrong with that). Economic distribution is in direct opposition to capitalism, in which the emphasis is exclusively on private ownership.

And you're not going to get economic distribution in the US, not as long as some opposing politician can slap the horrible label of "socialist" or "communist" to it. If Reagan, as president, was successful at one thing, it was making the idea of socialism and communism so abbhorent to the populace that now it is associated in the US with evil, death, etc. Clearly there are many socialist democracies that are doing just fine.

I think the problem is that America is too productive. We create too many products, with too few workers. It means we can pay the workers more, but it also means we need fewer of them, which means that we can actually turn to the workers and say, "Hey, there's this out-of-work guy who'll do the same job you're doing for less money. Better stay in line, or else." So despite the glowing association some economists have with productivity, I don't necessarily think it leads to a better economic situation for all workers.

What we really need to do is mandate a three week paid vacation. It isn't communist, it isn't socialist, and everyone could get behind it. The longer our vacation time, the less overall work hours, so more workers are needed. When those workers are on vacation, they spend their money on travel, so it goes back into the economy. Or, if they're not traveling, they might be spending that time working on their houses, which will raise property values in the area. Or, they might volunteer, which will improve the local community.

A lot of people in this country say, "I'd love to do X, if only I had more time." I say, give them the time. More vacation time can't hurt the country, it can only help it. And I think most companies can afford it. I mean, somehow businesses in other countries muddle through profitably while giving out 4-6 week paid vacations (Yes, Australians, the lucky bastards, have 6 weeks paid vacation).

Re:Good move.

[AntiOrganic]

I really don't understand the need to mention Bush here.

Office 97 functionality

[MoonFog]

From the article:
Microsoft heaped scorn on the Commerce Department's decision to abandon Office for the software alternative. The procurement decision relegated users to second best, said local Microsoft officials, comparing Open Office 1.1 functionality to Word 97

First of all, like has been mentioned numerous times on /., the functionality in Office 97 is sufficient for most users. Very few people use, let alone need, the extra functionality added in the later versions of office.

Second, this just makes Microsoft sound childish. "Our latest product is better, they're just a rip off from our old products"

Re:Office 97 functionality

[mccalli]

First of all, like has been mentioned numerous times on /., the functionality in Office 97 is sufficient for most users.

Indeed. Here I sit in an Office of one of the worlds largest banks and what is my client box? NT 4, Lotus Notes, Exceed and Office 97.

Though I'm no fan of Notes, the above is perfectly sufficent for me to do all the work required. You could switch it all to Linux underneath me and I'd barely notice.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Office 97 functionality

[mpe]

First of all, like has been mentioned numerous times on /., the functionality in Office 97 is sufficient for most users. Very few people use, let alone need, the extra functionality added in the later versions of office.

The "extra functionality" may even get in the way.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[david@ecsd.com]

That's because--let's face it--the mine of the office productivity application has been emptied of its gold. It's gotten to the point where it's pretty damned difficult to screw up something like word processors and spreadsheets. The things have been around since nearly the beginning of the office PC and the wrinkles have been ironed out. What the hell more can a company add? Talking paperclips? Christ, if I were to put down a features table of the major office apps--MS Office, Star/Open Office, Wordperfect's bundle, and Lotus Smartsuite(does IBM even still sell it?)--you'd be hard pressed to find features in one that you can't find in another. Microsoft is milking the franchise; you know it, I know it, Microsoft knows it, and now their customers are starting to catch on to the fact that there are plenty of "just as good" applications out there for cheap, liscensed in such a way that you don't have to be a contract lawyer with 30 years experience to understand the terms. (How difficult is it to understand, "Oh, uhhh, yeah, it's free"?)

Love,
Dave

Re:Office 97 functionality

[term8or]

Frankly, as a software engineer VI, word 6, Mozilla and a compiler (GNU?) would give me everything I really need.

As a writer / novelist I find that Word 2000 etc is so helpful that it gets in my way. My productivity is WAY higher using word 6. I've got everything set up just fine; why move all my macros?

Re:Office 97 functionality

[term8or]

I'm not sure how a post about whether Office tools have actually improved enough for it to be worth upgrading should produce a post that argues that you "have" to use visual programming tools to produce good programs. Hint: I have been known to use visual programming tools.

I have also worked on large-scale projects with little more than a debugger, compiler, and Visio (for basic design drawing). In order to say, "rich visual debugging and design tools are a MUST" you need to furnish us with some evidence, sir. You need to show at a minimum that programmer productivity has significantly improved as a result of introducing such a tool. This would be hard to do. Current evidence suggests that the value from a dollar spent on software has remained nearly static.

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/arch ives/001084.html

The productivity trends from the time that these tools started to be introduced showed a reduction in productivity

http://ftp.starbase.com/pdf/productivitytrends.pdf

And, as a general observation, advances in computing have not yet provided a substantial productivity increase. As Robert Solow says, "you can see computers everywhere but in the productivity statistics." One of the main hold-ups in benefits from computing seems to be software production. Simply put, current advances in tools have not produced a real advantage where it matters: software is still hard to construct, and no amount of tools will guarantee that the software you produce will actually work in a way that benefits the clients. You need good people to do that. Tools can help, but people can produce good programs without the tools, and tools won't produce good programs without the people.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[MoonFog]

What the hell more can a company add? Talking paperclips?

SHHH! They might hear you! ;)

Re:Office 97 functionality

[primus_sucks]

On my legacy Windows computer, I have Word 6.0 which was released in the early 90's! Still edits resumes and letters just fine.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

My new job in a large corporation came with a brand new Dell desktop running Office 97. It's our corporate standard and nobody misses any of the features of the newer versions of Office.
The only issues anyone has with Office 97 is that it has occasional incompatibilities with later version MS Word files and all of the later version MS Access files.
Fortunately, Open Office can open all of these files and convert them to "standard" MS format. /Mark

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

My productivity is WAY higher using word 6. I've got everything set up just fine; why move all my macros?

Not to mention the fact that, in order to move your macros, they would effectively have to be rewritten! I used to solve quite a few problems for my customers with macros in Microsoft's Office products. One customer, after going through two rounds of this, balked at the third round and started doing the procedures by hand again. How's that for a productivity tool?

Re:Office 97 functionality

[watzinaneihm]

The procurement decision relegated users to second best, said local Microsoft officials, comparing Open Office 1.1 functionality to Word 97
This is a ridiculos arguement to make. Its not as if the so called "users" come for free. The government pays them to do their job the way the government pleases to get the job done. If they want each form to be filled in triplicate, the employees better do it unless there is a cheaper way to do it. If the Software costs exceed the cost of manual labor, better put more employees and change the software.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Ed Avis]

Yes, Word 6 is the best version of MS Word IMHO. Even the old Windows 3.1 appearance has a certain retro charm nowadays, while older Win95 applications just look tacky. (Compare styling changes in cars to make last year's model seem undesirable.) The 32-bit version of Word 6 is best. I have that running on NT 3.51 and it never goes wrong. A shame that neither product is still sold by Microsoft.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Zog The Undeniable]

I'd be a tad concerned if my bank was running on an unsupported operating system :-P

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Sire Enaique]

I remember reading a novelist praising EMACS because it is the closest thing to a text-mode Wordperfect one can get today.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

Word 2000/xp tries so hard to auto-complete stuff for you, it will outright mess up what you are doing.

When making lists for instance (with romon numerals, capital letters, numbers, lower case letters, etc). Man, it's almost impossible to format a list the way you want. It really tries to force a specific way down your throat...

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Pfhreakaz0id]

PLEASE don't mention Notes... I have to use this POS everyday. I don't mean to go on a rant here, but, well yeah I do :)

It has, without a doubt, the stupidest "feature" I've ever seen in a software program in my 20 years of using computers. Sometimes, I have to enter my notes password to EXIT THE PROGRAM. And it's insistent about it, it gets really, really angry if I don't. I understand what it is doing (I have stuff marked for deletion and my session has expired and it is trying to delete mail on exit, but I'm not connected) and I fixed it (change the server timeout to near infinity) -- but it's still dumb.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Anarke_Incarnate]

I think I interned there a few years back in the IT dept of a check center. Does the bank name start with a D?

Re:Office 97 functionality

[mccalli]

I'd be a tad concerned if my bank was running on an unsupported operating system

The majority of banks I know both here in the City of London and also in New York use NT4. Some have recently moved to 2000. There are vague rumours of XP upgrades here, but nothing definite.

It's worth bearing in mind that when you're the size these banks are, you don't just get the standard consumer deal. I've seen Microsoft engineers dragged in behind me to look at why an SQL Server installation was running so slowly, and patches came out for the product specifically to address the issues they found.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Office 97 functionality

[mccalli]

I think I interned there a few years back in the IT dept of a check center. Does the bank name start with a D?

Nope. A J. These are the London investment bank offices, rather than a branch. I have no idea what the branches of this bank run - they don't actually have any in the UK.

I'm not at all surprised you ran across the same combination though. Most banks seems to have that, though some run Outlook instead of Notes.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Office 97 functionality

[uradu]

> the functionality in Office 97 is sufficient for most users

Office 97??? Dude, around here there are still people discovering the hidden powers and depths of Notepad. Word Wrap? Status bar? What will they think of next?

Re:Office 97 functionality

[ccp]

Yes, Word 6 is the best version of MS Word IMHO.

I believe that, in fact, Word peaked at 2.0.
That version was lean and mean, and did everything an Office word processor should do.
Each version afterwards just added cruft.

Writing novels shouldn't be done in Word. It's a very different problem space.

Cheers,

Re:Office 97 functionality

[BigGerman]

>>What the hell more can a company add?

You are right - as fas as basic edit-copy-paste word processing and spreadsheets there is nothing to add.
However, look at what MS added in the newest Office - XML (for enterprise inter-op) and groupware (for sharing and collaboration). This is where the real innovation is. And I am afraid OO and friends are not even close and still trying to get to Office 97 levels.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Anarke_Incarnate]

Ahh,

I wasn't talking about a branch location. I worked in a large Northeastern US check processing facility for a bank that's based in Germany. It sounded very much the same in what they used. We didn't handle accounts, but processed some nice checks and I got to see a 50 mil US check that was a fake. Somebody had brass ones to write that.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[STrinity]

Christ, if I were to put down a features table of the major office apps--MS Office, Star/Open Office, Wordperfect's bundle, and Lotus Smartsuite(does IBM even still sell it?)--you'd be hard pressed to find features in one that you can't find in another.

I can think of one -- in Word you can type special characters in an intuitive fashion -- ctrl-'+e gives you an accented e. As near as I can determine, in OOo you have to pull up the character map if you ever want to type a diacritical mark.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[ccp]

However, look at what MS added in the newest Office - XML (for enterprise inter-op) and groupware (for sharing and collaboration). This is where the real innovation is

You're joking. At least, i hope so.

Cheers

Re:Office 97 functionality

[zymurgy_cat]

Not to mention the fact that, in order to move your macros, they would effectively have to be rewritten!

That assumes your macros will even work in an updated version. I made the mistake of installing SP3 for Office 2000. It totally disabled the SolverSolve routine when called from a macro. Microsoft's response? "We're aware of the problem and have a fix, but we won't release it until we feel like it."

This effectively killed my entire Excel workbook that performed some very complicated calculations and optimizations.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[mamer-retrogamer]

Word 6 is the best version of MS Word IMHO.

I'm assuming you've never used Word 5 for Mac.

-Mike

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Minna Kirai]

As near as I can determine, in OOo you have to pull up the character map if you ever want to type a diacritical mark.

They (OpenOffice developers) may be taking the perspective that inputting characters is not their job.

And they're right- how you input text should be handled by your OS, separate from the applications that use text. Anyone who wants to superimpose '+e should install an "international" or "european" keyboard configuration. That way, you just type "'e" and they're automatically joined into one symbol- and it works the same way for all your programs!

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Art Tatum]

Wasn't NeXTSTEP also big in the financial industry for a long time?

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I haven't read the full report you cite but based on the first link, it doesn't prove ANYTHING. I have no idea what the cited report (in the first link) uses to measure the index but how can they possibly measure the software index? For computers (i.e. hardware), it's easy. You just look at performance, speed, memory capacity, etc. But how about software?

The benefits of software are intangible. Therefore, they are likely to be undervalued.

Also, YOUR points (as opposed to the links you cite) are just as vague. How can you say that a debugger does not result in productivity improvments? How about automated tools for generating GUI elements? ANd so forth. I have a feeling that you, as well as the guy you cite, are not adjusting for results. For instance, it might take a programmer 50 hours to create a "program" now, just like it took 50 hours 30 years ago. However, the results are vastly different. Unlike 30 years ago, now the "program" will have more features. I'll bet you are not counting soft things like that (features, appeal, ease of use, etc)...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Office 97 functionality

[mccalli]

Wasn't NeXTSTEP also big in the financial industry for a long time?

One bank only as far as I'm aware - Swiss Bank, now merged into UBS. Might have been used elsewhere - I'm not certain to be honest.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Graabein]

> I remember reading a novelist praising EMACS

I remember reading in the foreword to some novel:
"This novel was written entirely in WordPerfect, which is anything but".

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Sire Enaique]

The point isn't wether EMACS or Wordperfect or MS Word or GizmoWrite is the Ultimate and Perfect Word Processor, just that it's nice to have a choice.

Different programs behave differently, and one person might prefer to work with one and another person with a different one, that's all.

Re:Office 97 functionality

[Simonetta]

I have found Microsoft Word to be the most frustrating program that I have ever used (with the possible exception of a Commodore 64 C compiler).

Whenever I have to do something semi-serious in Word now, I always take a few minutes to get calm and detached from the anger that I know is going to come.

It helped greatly to study repeatedly (on my own time and money) several thick manuals on the subject and the 'Word Annoyances' O'Reilly book.

You just have to tell yourself "What you want to do, It can be done. Or, it's not important. Kittens, little children and blue skies are important; MS Word is not."

But then I find graphics images that I carefully pasted in a certain place moving around by themselves to other locations. Strange characters and lines appearing with no way to find out what they are and, more importantly, how to get rid of them. A Help function that doesn't help and makes you feel stupid.

And a boss (a German boss) who gives you a bad performance review because you haven't mastered this piece of absurd software. I've mastered a dozen compliers, assemblers, CAD , PCB and PLD design applications, but not the only program that the boss has ever had to learn. So, bad review.

I used to deal with the frustration of working with Microsoft Word by making a detailed list of what was wrong and possible ways that it could be improved. But I realised that it was pointless. No one would ever read it. Nothing would ever get any better. Nobody cares....

Now I spend a hour in the Daisy Kingdom after any major bout with using Microsoft Word. Calm, refocused, kittens, little children, the important things in the real world...

Poor quality gag.

[Channard]

I really don't understand the need to mention Bush here.

Oh, come on - you can never have too much bush. Especially at Christmas. I mean holly of course - what did you think I meant?

Re:Poor quality gag.

[mattjb0010]

I mean holly of course - what did you think I meant?

I thought you meant Holly, not holly. ;)

Re:Poor quality gag.

[sheriff_p]

And what exactly does Holly think about this?

Re:Poor quality gag.

[radja]

I still prefer less bush on Holly..

Re:Poor quality gag.

[Glock27]

what did you think I meant?

Mistletoe?

Yeah, I know...it's not a bush. It's not a shrub, either, though... ;-)

Re:Poor quality gag.

[Guppy06]

"what did you think I meant?"

Marajuana. The only way some of us can get through Christmas without going on a bloody rampage.

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[reub2000]

Then it isn't free if you put that type of restriction on it. One of the disadvantages of oss.

Bold move

[jdifool]

Hi,

not just in the third world countries
I guess you didn't read that much papers about Israel. So ironic.

And spare us the all too naive 'this is a good thing, but people Linux is not worth it, this is WRONG' speech. You are preaching convinced people. /. wants new insights.

Like this one :).

Regards,
jdif

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[Gilesx]

Wow! What a BRILLIANT contribution to free speech you're making!

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[Channard]

What is the difference between a Zionist and a White Supremacist? Both believe that God has given them dominion over their land and right to kill anyone who resides on it that they don't like.

Really? You must have seen the director's cut of The Matrix films. I thought the Zionists were more into have huge great rave scenes and then running about in powerloaders.

OSL - licence ?

[HansF]

That's what you get with that new business model of OSL-license. The lease expires and your customer has to make a decision wether to renew the lease or to go to the competition.
It's not like in the days a staff decided that since the budget was tight, they'll do another year with their NT4 servers.
Now, it's pay or bug off.

Re:OSL - licence ?

[martin-boundary]

You know, that's quite insightful. In the old days when companies bought software, nobody could take it away from them. So you ended up with legacy software 7, 10 years old. Halfway through that time, when somebody decided to upgrade hardware or software, they had to choose titles which worked with the legacy stuff. So they ended up locked into a vendor, unless they wanted to risk upsetting their whole IT infrastructure.

But now, with leases that expire, those 7 to 10 year old pieces of software can't exist. So the need for legacy-aware software buying decisions is no longer there. Microsoft's marketing dept basically shot themselves in the foot.

Re:OSL - licence ?

[weave]

Wow, that's a real professional web site design. If the browser won't accept cookies, serve a blank page instead. I guess that is innovation for you.

Re:OSL - licence ?

[Proudrooster]

I can't view that OSL page with my Mozilla or Firebird web browser. I must need to upgrade to IE, NOT! Also, OSL sounds a lot like an acronymn for Open Source License :)

Re:OSL - licence ?

[Minna Kirai]

when companies bought software, nobody could take it away from them.

The funny thing is, if you read the EULAs that have been issued with Microsoft(tm) software from about 1995 onwards, they could take it away, at a whim.

The "agreement" states that either party could terminate it at any time (by sending back either the money or the software). If EULAs were valid... (and that's a big "IF")

Re:Good move.

[chadm1967]

I agree. Why mention Bush?

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[Channard]

Well I would vote for free bombs as in freely blowing up jews. Unfortunately blackpowder (which is required to make bombs) costs money. I haven't found a store which belives into free giving away blackpowder.

Perhaps if you tell them you're planning on taking it to a disused warehouse, and engaging in a dangerous experiment to clean up the gene pool which will, in all likelyhood, end your own existence, but harm no-one else, they might be willing to help.

Re:Are you one of the MOSSAD ?

[Gilesx]

But why? Open source shouldn't just be free as in beer, but also free as in speech - free information for all to share. Just restricting your software to a group is only adding to the negativity that is felt throughout this delicate situation

IMHO, if you allow political events to affect your emotions, and this begins to leak into your work, I dread to think what the state of your code looks like....

Re:Good move.

[chadm1967]

Actually, I want to add to what I wrote above....

What does you not liking how Bush is running the US have to do with Israel testing Mandrake Linux?

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Which is curious. What is the difference between a Zionist and a White Supremacist? Both believe that God has given them dominion over their land and right to kill anyone who resides on it that they don't like."

That's not a difference.

OSS Good

[fmlug.org]

Its interesting where I go to school lots of people are only intersted in useing Microsoft products. Because they believe thats all that used so its the only thing worth using. Some people even get very upset that they have to use a term on a unix box to learn how to program and think that the Linux lab is a complete waste of time and space. I happen to tell then that Microsoft probably only has the majority share of users in the US. There are other countries where users dont have money to spend on an OS. I for on think that all governments should use Open Source software because gov's are for the people Y should they not use an os written by the people they protect. I see this as a good thing and hopefully someday the US will wake up and see the light. Now this post makes me seem like I am saying windows sucks and Linux/BSD rocks, well maybe it is. I believe in using the app the does the best job. Ok if you read this and like it good if not sorry about the rant. :)

Re:OSS Good

[Adam9]

I think the thing that annoys me the most is when certain classes require or exclusively teach certain Microsoft products. (Like Office)

Re:OSS Good

[mpe]

I happen to tell then that Microsoft probably only has the majority share of users in the US. There are other countries where users dont have money to spend on an OS.

Possibly the most interesting thing happening here is that the country in question is has very strong links with the US, is probably the US's strongest ally on the planet and would probably have little problem getting the US Government to give them whatever money they asked for.

Re:OSS Good

[Asic Eng]

I happen to tell then that Microsoft probably only has the majority share of users in the US.

That would be nice, but I doubt it is true. It's only recently that some countries start to switch from MS to OSS. I don't think there is a single country were MS has a minority share yet. (Certainly not Germany, which for some reason is often named in that respect.)

Re:OSS Good

[weave]

I think that can be defensible depending on the type of class or curriculm. For a community college, for example, that teaches hands on office skills, using what the student is likely to find in the work place is probably a good idea. For other types of curricula, like programming concepts, using a certain IDE on a particular platform with a specific API doesn't seem too wise.

Then again, I work for a community college and I remember in the 80s we taught Lotus 1-2-3 and dBASE III+ in the data processing degree program. I used to bitch that it was stupid to put a particular vendor's program into a degree program. "What if 10 years from now, no one has ever heard of Lotus or dBASE?" The reply was basically that I was an idiot. Those programs have their markets sewn all up, businesses love them, businesses don't tend to change, there is no way anyone could unseat them.

When I went for my CS degree, I was all excited when it came to assembler class because I had a Mac and the University used Macs and I wanted to learn how to code assembly on the Mac (68000 at the time). Well, I got in the class and they had loaded some program that turned the Mac into a text-only console and we only learned the basics of the assembler language itself, absolutely no toolbox calls.

I was pissed off, but it turned out to be a good thing in the long run.

So, I'm agreeing with your statement, just saying I can see some (but not many) exceptions.

Re:OSS Good

[zenpiglet]

Its interesting where I go to school lots of people are only intersted in useing Microsoft products. Because they believe thats all that used so its the only thing worth using
It is the best bet given that 95% of PCs run MS software. It would be a pretty poor school that taught its pupils to use software that was used by a tiny fraction of the world. Now software who's main use is to teach something else (say learning French) is ok, but if your aim is to teach IT skills, then surely using the most widely-used and widely-available software is best for the student as they will have some useful skills when they leave.

I happen to tell then that Microsoft probably only has the majority share of users in the US
Well, no. They are the global leader in software and as I mention above near every PC runs their software. Just because you see a lot /.'ers from around the world using something different, doesn't mean that they are in any way representative.

I believe in using the app the does the best job
Actually, everything else you say clearly indicates that you don't. What you believe in is using the app you like/approve of/use/wrote, etc to do the job. Microsoft apps often are the best for the job, but with your policy they'd be disregarded just because they aren't OSS.

If you did believe what you say then you wouldn't insist the Government use OSS, Linux, etc and not closed-source (which is largely taken to mean Microsoft, but actually covers many software vendors) - having favourites is not a good way to run a governemnt.

I know it's hard to believe but Microsoft developers (and other staff) are also 'the people the government protects'. MS is a very American company, so your statement is doubly wrong because recommending MS software would protect US interests more than recommending OSS, which could potentialy be written and distributed without any American input at all, or any gain for America(ns) because no money comes into the country.

Re:OSS Good

[Azghoul]

It occurs to me that as an academic institution, you better be teaching your students how to program, period. As opposed to your plan of "how to program using MS tools".

For CS, a variety of tools, languages and programming styles would seem to be the smartest way of going about it. Then 15 years from now when MS has gone Enron, you can still get a job.

Unless you're at someplace like Devry where they're just trying to give you some job training.

Re:OSS Good

[sgtrock]

It is the best bet given that 95% of PCs run MS software...

...but if your aim is to teach IT skills, then surely using the most widely-used and widely-available software is best for the student as they will have some useful skills when they leave.

They are the global leader in software and as I mention above near every PC runs their software...

I know it's hard to believe but Microsoft developers (and other staff) are also 'the people the government protects'. MS is a very American company...

Your first statement is probably true. The trend, however, is for Mac OSX and Linux combined to reach 10% penetration worldwide in a year or two. Server growth has been nothing short of spectacular. They've already reached that mark for servers. Merrill Lynch estimated that revenue for Linux server installations grew by 46% to $817 million. Not exactly pocket change. :

Your second statement is sort of valid. However, IT skills that are limited to a single computing environment are a serious mistake. Education at most institutions should be geared towards teaching you the basics and giving you the tools to learn the advanced stuff wherever you end up. This is true for all education, not just IT.

Your third statement is misleading. I will stipulate that Microsoft is the world leader in installations. I must disagree, however, if you mean that they are the leaders in technical innovation. Microsoft has been sort of successful in borrowing and stealing ideas from others. They've never really done much in the way of truly unique R&D. In fact, I can't think of a thing off hand that they came up with first. They didn't even invent customer lock in through technology. AT&T did that.

Finally, IMO Microsoft does not even come close to being a 'good' American company. By that I mean that they show no loyalty to the principles that this nation was founded upon. Intead, Microsoft represents some of the worst of America's flaws. Bill Gates is comparable to J. D. Rockefeller, a man who destroyed every competitor he had by illegal, immoral, and unethical means. The government should be treating Bill like Al Capone, not Albert Schweitzer.

Re:OSS Good

[ccp]

I happen to tell then that Microsoft probably only has the majority share of users in the US. There are other countries where users dont have money to spend on an OS.

Is there any country besides the USA where people actually pays for software?
Instead of just copying or borrowing a friend's copy?

In what planet?

Cheers,

Re:OSS Good

[AtheismIsGood]

Well, it isn't Israel's debt history that is the issue here...

Re:OSS Good

[superyooser]

First link: Amnesty is using a tortured definition of torture to call those acts torture. The people being interrogated are not exactly jaywalkers or petty shoplifters; those kinds of people were caught trying to blow up innocent Israelis. I know because I follow the news over there very closely. Israel is at WAR for its very existence, and if subjecting prisoners to annoying music helps Israel to acquire intelligence and save lives, it's more than worth it. Even if those acts were torture, it shouldn't be an issue with the U.S., because the U.S. does the same things.

Second link: I didn't read it. I don't care what the U.N. says. It has no credibility.

Re:OSS Good

[Minna Kirai]

Israel is at WAR

Why yes, when you start a WAR, it should be no surpise to be at WAR.

Re:OSS Good

[WNight]

I'd disregard Microsoft apps for many jobs, not because they're closed source, but because they're non-standard and MS intentionally makes them this way.

If there's ever a chance that you'll want to change platform, or change software, you don't want to get locked in with one vendor.

At my work we aren't switching everyone to Linux, but we're switching away from MS Office and Outlook to allow some desktops to be switched to Linux. We wanted to be able to build $250 PCs for use in the warehouse, for reception, etc. Anyone who doesn't need a full business suite, but who might be required to open a document every now and then. If we'd stuck with Windows we'd have been paying as much for the OS as the hardware on these PCs. If we'd stuck with MS lock-in apps, we'd have been stuck with MS.

Besides, there's no MS app I've *ever* seen that was the best in the market. The most consistent, maybe, but there are better word processors, better database creator apps, better page layout programs, better web servers, better SQL servers, etc. If you had to pick a single vendor to buy software from, MS might look good. If you get to pick and choose, their "Best for the job" status is quickly shown to be an illusion.

Re:OSS Good

[pro-evil]

I think the Jews should've been given Madagascar after WW2. That would have kept violence to a minimum. Although it might annoy the locals and the lemurs.

Re:Are you one of the MOSSAD ?

[Gilesx]

Mozilla restricted code because they were required to by law.

You are restricting code because you are a wannabe fascist.

Can you spot the difference?

Re:Are you one of the MOSSAD ?

[Gilesx]

You're welcome. Don't let it happen again.

Re:One-way economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like Poland, but in the other way : they want to join Europe and get the money, but on the other hand they preferred buying Falcons aircrafts instead of EADS.

In other news...

[davidstrauss]

Palestinian officials respond by rejecting Mandrake in favor of *BSD.

Re:In other news...

[Thomas Miconi]

Palestinian officials respond by rejecting Mandrake in favor of *BSD.

About an hour later, the Hamas and the Islamic Djihad made a joint statement in which they condemned the Palestinian Autority's decision on the ground that *BSD was "wholly anti-Islamic". The Hamas spokesman commented that "people who put pictures of smiling devils all over their software should be stoned to death - twice !"

Twenty minutes later, the Palestinian Authority cancelled the previous announcement and made public a million-dollar contract with a major French company specializing in the production and the commercialization of Abacuses. "In order to leverage our most abundant resources, the PA finance minister said, we will investigate the possibility to use vast quantities of stones and rubble to build abacuses. If massive Beowulf clusters of abacuses are feasible, we may eventually outpower the computational capacities of the occupying forces by several orders of magnitude !"

Thomas Miconi
BTW, Mandrake is French, isn't it ?
BTW2, There was a story on The Onion some time ago. I only managed to find shortened versions of it, e.g. here. I just love the last paragraph. Long live the 'nion.

Re:In other news...

[watzinaneihm]

Oh no they wont. They are planning to make it their official OS. Did you look at the mandrake logo? Its a crescent and a star. It surely has won support in the middle east (and surely in soviet russia). They even used it in their flags.

Re:In other news...

[ccp]

Palestinian officials respond by rejecting Mandrake in favor of *BSD.

Well, when they discover VI vs. EMACS then they'll have a REAL war.

Cheers,

Interview on linuxquestions.org ?

[vierja]

Anyone knows if this is related to what was mentioned in yesterday's interview with Mandrake's founder Gael Duval:

As for MandrakeSoft, the future looks very good because we recently got our first good successes in local administrations (details will be announced later), so at least we will have business in this field and in the corporate field.

Re:Interview on linuxquestions.org ?

[dollar70]

Yeah, I was wondering about the connection myself. After all, Mandrake hasn't gotten a lot of air-time on Slashdot lately (not that it's a bad thing necessarily), but two articles in two days? I was thinking, "Wow!" And what do I find? A lot of polarizing bigotry here in the comments.

I also find it disturbing that it's being associated with my preferred distro, Mandrake. I'd like to see more upbeat conversation of how Mandrake is helping people make the switch to Linux and open source, and not to argue over old political diatribes that should have been settled long ago.

I think it's great if any coutry wants to look into Open source, Linux, GNU/Linux (regardless of distro) because it can only mean better developement for all Linux platforms in the long run.

Re:Mixed emotions

[Technician]

I know it's off topic and feeding the troll, however;

Wonder what a Linux-powered suicide bomb would look like.

In all reality, it would be much simpler than a windows box. It could be run without a keyboard and monitor. It could easly be operated remotely via wireless LAN or dialup via telenet. Remote kind of defeats the suicide portion of the troll.

Most important, It would be very cost effective. No need for an expensive OS for a simple job.

No need for expensive hardware to run the expensive OS for the simple job.

An old ISA based PC with a modem (real modem- ya got me on that point) or a NIC and small RAM and HD or CD without a HD would suffice. The Windows solution will not run on a minimual configuration. The NIC or Modem is safer than the sucide option mentioned.

However you could trade the NIC or Modem for a keyboard and your life for the true sucide option mentioned.

What if MS goes for code review?

[kautilya]

Many governments are going for Linux saying it is free of cost, "open software", etc etc. But, the real reason I think is they believe Linux/Open Software has less chance of any "back door". They don't want every desk in their department to get electronically bugged. Now, imagine the scenario when MS offers for some sort of international code review/certification saying that it is as "safe" as open source (I don't mean "secure" and "bug free" but intentional sabotage..). It would be interesting to see if they still adopt Linux. Now, before all this happens, this is the opportunity for Linux to grab the opportunity and establish itself. Linux should market itself hard so that in the future linux too becomes enough ubiquitious, the only strength windows has. Instead of tamely imitating windows (desktop) time to get more creative and make the OS more usable to the average clerk/secretary who wants a good mail client, a word processor and a browser. Strength builds upon strength. If Linux companies can capitalise on opportunities by skeptical governments, and establishes itself, it shouldn't to be too difficult before we see linux too as an option for an average user. Windows gets its strength from those average users.

Re:What if MS goes for code review?

[KoolDude]

Linux should market itself hard

That's why we have the Advanced Linux Marketing System included in 2.6. It elevates the Linux Marketing to an all new level without compromising TCO, IP, ROI, .NET, XML and all other buzz words.

Re:What if MS goes for code review?

[Anonymous Coward]

Code reviews by themselves are insufficient. If you want to trust your software you have to not only review the code but also compile it yourself.

I doubt any governments are dumb enough to swallow a pre-compiled binary even after seeing the supposed source for that binary, and I doubt Microsoft is going to let their customers compile their own binaries of MS products any time soon either.

Thus, verifiable/trustworthy software will continue to be a key advantages of free software for some time to come.

Re:What if MS goes for code review?

[gurumeditationerror]

But, the real reason I think is they believe Linux/Open Software has less chance of any "back door". They don't want every desk in their department to get electronically bugged. Now, imagine the scenario when MS offers for some sort of international code review/certification saying that it is as "safe" as open source (I don't mean "secure" and "bug free" but intentional sabotage..). It would be interesting to see if they still adopt Linux.

Yeah, I've thought that myself before. But for microsoft to get a government to trust the code review they'd have to give said government all the code that has been reviewed plus the means to compile it and distribute it themselves.
Other wise it is pointless. "Here are our black boxs and here is the code it runs, honest. No, you can't open them - We've showed you what's in them, really!"

Re:What if MS goes for code review?

[Glock27]

Mod parent up. Exact same point I was going to make.

I doubt the Israeli government has the time to get the Windows build process right... ;-)

Re:What if MS goes for code review?

[tuggy]

...they'd have to give said government all the code that has been reviewed plus the means to compile it and distribute it themselves. Other wise it is pointless. "Here are our black boxs and here is the code it runs, honest. No, you can't open them - We've showed you what's in them, really!"

yeah, i agree with that. and because of it, i dont think it will happen.
Micro$oft wont be stupid enough to open the code only to government.. that is an impossible thing to do. Once the code is open to someone, it will be open to all :>

Re:What if MS goes for code review?

[Imperator]

Because it would leak. Let's face it: after they've given out a dozen copies of the full "build this and burn it and install it yourself" source to certain countries, there'll be copies all over the net. It won't be OSS people either; it will be crackers. I mean, why bother cracking the latest copy prevention in an MS product when you can simply comment out a few lines and recompile?

Re:What if MS goes for code review?

[Minna Kirai]

and I doubt Microsoft is going to let their customers compile their own binaries of MS products any time soon either.

They might. Microsoft would never let someone compile binaries and then use them, but if a large customer was insistent enough, they coudl arrange something.

For example, the customer's IT staff could visit Microsoft, watch WindowsXP compile (which takes probably 50+ hours), and then compare the just-compiled files with the contents of a store-bought disk.

That'll give them a greater sense of security (not enough, really, because we all know compilers can't be fully trusted)

Sounds a lot like the recent Powerpoint article

[Kjella]

The procurement decision relegated users to second best, said local Microsoft officials, comparing Open Office 1.1 functionality to Word 97

First of all, like has been mentioned numerous times on /., the functionality in Office 97 is sufficient for most users. Very few people use, let alone need, the extra functionality added in the later versions of office.

Indeed. It sounds much like the Powerpoint article, where the main argument is "blame the tool". In this case "blame the office suite". Of course you need the rudimentary features required to make it look like you want, but it's still the content that matters.

I really don't see why so much focus is on the tool. Your average run-of-the-mill business letter will look pretty damn near identical if written in OpenOffice, KWord, Word 97 or Word XP. The tool can't do any better than the man wielding it. In case of a word processor, I'd say that nothing the word processor will do makes a significant impact, even with Clippy ;). All the work goes into forming the letter, not formatting the letter.

Kjella

P.S. All karma generated by this post dedicated to Opera 7.20. I never could have done it with any other browser. Yeah. Right.
-

Re:Sounds a lot like the recent Powerpoint article

[cerberusss]

I really don't see why so much focus is on the tool

It's not the tool, it's the file format that the tool uses. OpenOffice 1.1 still can't flawlessly im/export MS Office 2000 which is 3 year old software.

Re:Sounds a lot like the recent Powerpoint article

[gnu-generation-one]

"It's not the tool, it's the file format that the tool uses. OpenOffice 1.1 still can't flawlessly im/export MS Office 2000 which is 3 year old software"

If your priority is opening MS-Office documents, you should consider using OpenOffice. Not only is it often better at opening Word documents than Word itself, but when the file format is upgraded, it will be more likely to support the new format without additional cost.

There are people asking for "completely the same" as if they can't find anything else that OOo lacks. It's like hearing someone moan that it's not fully compatible because it doesn't have the same Microsoft logo on the box. Yeah, we embedded a video in a powerpoint presentation in a spreadsheet in a document, and now it doesn't work. Duh!

At university, there were plenty of course materials posted on the intranet in MS-Office format. I could always reliably open them with OpenOffice, whereas people with MSOffice had problems. Example: the title pages that we had to use for the thesis, a .DOC document. Half the class came back the next week to complain that they coulnd't read it, using their latest copies of MS Office. I never noticed a problem, it opened just fine in OOo.

Re:Sounds a lot like the recent Powerpoint article

[cerberusss]

It's not the tool, it's the file format that the tool uses. OpenOffice 1.1 still can't flawlessly im/export MS Office 2000 which is 3 year old software

If your priority is opening MS-Office documents

Well, it's not. Otherwise, I'd have asked for "opening MS-Office documents". No, I asked for "flawless im/export". I want to be able to receive a word-document from a customer, edit it, and send it back.

For some people, OOo does the job just fine. For me it doesn't. So I paid $55 for Crossover Office.

Re:Sounds a lot like the recent Powerpoint article

[tomknight]

Exactly.

I've recently had to either buy licences for MS Office or find an alternative. Neither Star Office or Open Office retained the formatting of an existing MS Word document. This sadly made them unusable.

I have no problem with using Open or Star Office, I actually like them, but until they deal with MS Office formats perfectly, I can't justify their use in my company. Sad really, especially as we'd get Star Office free. Hey, at least the educational licence for MS Office is lower than the full pricing.

Tom.

Re:Sounds a lot like the recent Powerpoint article

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

All you guys (you and eveyrone on Slashdot with the same argument) are looking at it from a non-user point of view. What you guys use a word processor for differs from the real users. Typing up a letter or just entering some numbers into a spreadsheet might be ok for you but the real users need more features. For example, Excel is still better than anything in OOo. In particular, the plotting in OOo sucks compared to Excel. And I'm not even an Excel "user".

With your line of thinking, there is no difference between an old word processor, say Wordperfect 5.1 for DOS and a modern one, say MS Word XP. I'll bet the real users can point out a million things that are better in the latter product.

One of the reasons Linux is not popular is because it just doesn't have the same features as Windows. For a programmer, or a systems admin, everything might look the same. But for an end-user things can be very different.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Sounds a lot like the recent Powerpoint article

[cerberusss]

at least the educational licence for MS Office is lower than the full pricing.

Yeah, and some companies/organizations have an MS Office license which permits home usage. So when people want to use Wine/Crossover to run MS Office, they don't even have to buy the license themselves, or pirate a copy.

Re:Free as in Free Jew .....

[Gilesx]

But you're only about 14 - that's far too young to be giving *anyone* a BJ, Jewish or not...

Re:Mixed emotions

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't you read the bible? I think you'll find that land was given to us by god personally, and we have a right to remove any filthy unwashed non-jews killing our people and building their filthy settlements on our land.

If you read Exodus a little more closely you will find that the land was given, by God, to some very specific people. Specific pieces of land were assigned to specific groups of people. Not to some people called "Jews", a term which probably didn't exist in the Bronze age.
Indeed "God Gave Us this Land" is a claim which the Palestinians could make most strongly. They are a Semitic people, who have lived in that part of the world for a long time thus are quite likely to be the descendents of Middle Easten and follow a religion which is derived from that followed by the "Israelites".
Zionism, dating from the late 19th century, let alone the modern state of Israel Is a relative newcommer here. Let alone that most people currently claiming to be "Jewish" are from the Caucasian Ashkenazi. Claiming "God gave us the Land" is a rather silly claim when there is no requirement for someone to believe in God to become an Israeli citizen. Things get even sillier though, some of the people most critical of the modern Israeli state being Orthodox Rabbis.

Re:One-way economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that the majority of Linux developement comes from the USA. And since the government is a government of the people and I am a citizen of the united states, I realy think Microsoft sucks and any sort of use of Linux over MS products is a big win in my corner of the world.

One more year...

[horcy]

... and even Microsoft will see the light and switch to *nix

Re:Good move.

[Savage-Rabbit]

This is a wise move for Israel that I hope will be duplicated all over the world,

Which would really piss off the US intelligence community..... Which in turn is probably one of the Israeli's motives. I bet the CIA gets a small collective panic attack every time they lose track of what the Israelis are upto.

AAAHHHHHHHHH......There is nothing like a good conspiracy theory to start the day!!!!

Re:Israeli Gov't Begins Testing Zyklon-B

[mrsev]

I know I shouldnt respond but I cant resist.

I am not jewish and my grandmother was even a muslim....before you start ranting about me being a zionist..blah blah balh.

Many I suggest that you go and post somewhere else where there are more of your "kind". Manybe you can dream of your world free from all the things out there that scare you. Frankly I dont care. This is discussion site for tech news and geek stuff. There are many places where people like you can meet and share your bigotry.

In conclusion, you are a sick and twisted individual. May I remind you that the NAZIs killed not only jews but many other people too. British, american, french, greek, dutch, russion, polish, christian, jew, arab, gay, straight, german, ukraininan..... I have wasted enough of my time on you.

Ahh

[xorta]

Ahhh they use *nix everywhere even in our treasury, good on them for moving away from microsoft its a lot cheaper and a lot more flexiblie, hoorar for israel.

Re:Good move.

[CreatorOfSmallTruths]

The fact that Israel is in Asia doesn't mean a
thing...

Israel has all major companies R&D centers: IBM, Intel, M$.

Israelies are contributing to linux distributions, open source projects etc. (why else would a birocratic office like the treasury be interested in linux?? someone there thought it was a good idea to pitch the offer)

Israelies invented ICQ, PHP, the UAV, A couple of smart bombs and some other "low tech" toys you might have heared of (currently they have a missile vs. missile resembling the patriot, a lazer-targeting system designed to target low orbit missiles)

Don't refer to Israel as third world country. Please.

I've got a better one

[Anonymous Coward]

The medical school at which I am affiliate faculty (University of South Florida) stipulates(http://hsc.usf.edu/is/standards/student s_med.html ) that students must have a copy of MS Office ("must be purchased") as a condition of attending medical school. No mention is made of "or compatible". From what I can tell from asking the students, the main impetus seems to be that the lectures for the first two years are all given as PowerPoint presentations.

I don't have any problem with companies deciding to use only Microsoft products if that is their choice, nor do I object to University support policies that focus on MS because they have to use their resources to support the most students in a cost-effective way, but I strongly object to making ownership of MS software a condition of attendance, particularly at a public institution in a state that sued MS for antitrust violations.

What? A Month?

[sirReal.83.]

They're only giving themselves a month to decide? It usually takes me a week to iron out the config on my own box after a fresh install. Squid this, adzapper that, make a GPG key, why won't iptables block Zope's port...

Subsidy

[pigpilot]

Does anyone else think it strange that the Isreali defence department signed their Microsoft deal in New York? I can't think of any other deal where you buy $20 Million in software but have to travel half way around the world to sign the contract, unless of course the deal was a small part of a deal very benificial to the buyer.

The real deal probably went along the lines of "I'll accept $1 billion of aid to buy attack helicopters from you, and as a thank you I'll spend $20 million on software from Microsoft."

This isn't the type of deal that Microsoft can rely on to sustain itself because where the finance ministry had to make a choice without the benefit of a large subsidy/bribe they dropped Microsoft.

Zealots

[tehanu]

Personally I would use the term Zealots rather than Zionists.

The Zealots were a bunch of militant religious nuts who dragged the majority moderate Jews to war with Rome, leading to the destruction of Jerusalem, the burning of the Temple and the final destruction of what remained of Israel, leaving the Jews without a homeland for the next 2000 years. They refused to abide any foreign rule because Israel could only be ruled according to the strict word of God and believed that any violent means were acceptable, to achieve their aims. The Jews bitterly regretted the Zealots during their wandering years, but obviously they haven't learnt not to allow their interactions with their neighbours to be ruled by violent militant religious nuts who believe they are on a holy quest from God to maintain the sancitity and purity of the Jewish state.

Zionism used to be quite secular and was actually despised by Jewish fundamentalists. Then it got hijacked by militant fundamentalists who want to recreate the Israel of Solomon and David. Never mind that particular Israel hasn't existed for over 2000 years and other people settled in the region over the last couple of millenia. While the majority of Israelites just want to live their lives and don't give a damn about Greater Israel, the rantings of the settlers involve lines like "God gave us this land so it belongs to us. The Palestinians should acknowledge us as the rulers or they should just get out." The fact that most people don't seem to realise that *both* sides are driven by religious nuts who are perfectly willing to use force against innocent civilians to achieve their aims and don't care a whit about the suffering of their own people just shows that the Jewish Zealots have a better PR machine.

The funny thing is now the Jews are coming to realise that if they keep the Palestinian lands, they will soon no longer be a Jewish state because the Arab birthrate is much higher. So the options are to either reliquish the land and remain small, but democratic and Jewish. They could keep the land, and remain Jewish by not allowing the Arabs to vote in a sort of apartheid system therefore no longer be a democracy (what do you call a country where the majority are not allowed to vote because of their race?). They could keep the land, and remain Jewish by driving all of the Arabs out ie. ethnic cleansing (Israel could be the first democracy to do ethnic cleansing...). Or they could keep the land, remain a democracy and the Jewish nature of the state will be wiped out in a decade when Arabs form the majority of the population,and vote in an Arab PM. Personally I'd choose (1) but somehow I have a feeling the zealots are going to drive Israel to (2) or (3). If (4) happens I'd consider it karma.

Re: Zealots

[Black Parrot]

> Zionism used to be quite secular and was actually despised by Jewish fundamentalists. Then it got hijacked by militant fundamentalists who want to recreate the Israel of Solomon and David. Never mind that particular Israel hasn't existed for over 2000 years

s/2000/2900/

And according to some recent Israeli archaeologists, that particular Israel never existed at all - at least not on the grand scale portrayed in the Bible. Naturally, that claim isn't very popular among the fundamentalists.

Re:Are you one of the MOSSAD ?

[adrianbaugh]

As I recall that is to permit odd cases like crypto code which, if it is to be distributed in the US, cannot legally be exported to certain countries (as I recall, currently North Korea, Iran and Taleban-controlled areas of Afghanistan). It is not intended to indulge developers' whims for political point-scoring. Obviously you can license your software however you like, making your own license that's similar to the GPL but with restrictions if you wish[0]. However, I would regard a license containing arbitrary restrictions as non-free in just the same way that Microsoft's licenses are non-free, and refuse to use it -- just because it's legal doesn't make it a "good right".
Consider what Linus has said in several interviews: he doesn't necessarily like everything that Linux has been used for, but to restrict it would be more damaging than good.

[0] Once you've altered it, it isn't the GPL any more though.

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[adrianbaugh]

Well, it seemed to be Zionists you wanted to get at, rather than Israelis in general. It seems a case of "hammer to crack a nut". Have you ever wondered whether the freedom of your country would be threatened if you had freedom of speech, civil rights and democracy (for all)?
Someone once said: "If you sacrifice freedom for security you deserve neither." I think you eloquently prove his point; moreover, I suspect that if you sacrifice freedom for security not only do you deserve neither but you will get neither.

Yes, but why?

[Futurepower(R)]

Yes, but think further. Why did they seemingly shoot themselves in the foot? Maybe because they realize they won't be around much longer. Maybe they're trying to get as much money as they can before Linux takes over.

Re:Yes, but why?

[Monkelectric]

I wish I had the link, but there is a paper out there about how Microsofts income is primarily derived from pension plans and tax breaks, and has very little to do with software. The author claims that when MS goes belly up it will make enron look like nothing.

Re:Yes, but why?

[orlord]

http://www.billparish.com/presslist.html

Re:Yes, but why?

[Monkelectric]

thanks my good man!

Re:Nope.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually that's the United States gov't being run out of a Tel Aviv office.

All your base are belong to us.

Power to tha Duck

[capn_buzzcut]

I think it's great not only that they're looking at Linux, but also that they're considering Mandrake.

To go along with their recent financial success, a win here would be absolutely huge for them.

Re:Power to tha Duck

[sniggly]

I agree, I like mandrake and wish them all the best.

Redhat spawned fedora, fedora is "unsupported" and what remains are high priced RHELs. Fedora has a very strong community around it but its stated purpose is to be a labrat for RHEL.
Suse never had ISOs for download which is their right as a company but a linux distribution usually is more than the company doing the distributing. Now that suse is a Novell company we'll have to see how true to the OSS Suse remains.
Sun is a new linux distributor and we'll just have to see how true to the community they will be. After all they could have called it the Sun Gnome Desktop (which it is) instead of the Sun Java desktop (which it isn't as much)...

Mandrake is the one remaining big linux distribution (still the biggest in terms of desktop install base) that is tightly interwoven with its supporting community.

Re:Power to tha Duck

[cayenne8]

"Mandrake is the one remaining big linux distribution (still the biggest in terms of desktop install base) that is tightly interwoven with its supporting community."

I hate to mention Gentoo here, but, in this case I think it is appropriate...

:-)

Re:Power to tha Duck

[Minna Kirai]

I hate to mention Gentoo here, but, in this case I think it is appropriate...

Why? Gentoo isn't "big". Not many people use it.

Distributions with more users than Gentoo include: Redhat, debian, SUSE, Mandrake, and Slack.

Prehaps Gentoo seems more popular than it is, because it's users tend to be involved. Gentoo is not the "most supported big distrib", it is the "most vocal small distrib".

1 month?

[blanks]

Doesn't matter, 1 month isn't enough time to switch over a small office over to Linux, let alone an entire governments structure and closed source software.

They may decide to switch over, but it will be over a few years, and will continue using their existing OS.

Again?

[SmallFurryCreature]

Surely you mean switch back to unix? Seems the world has forgotten xenix. Although having heard from people old enough to have used it this is a good thing. Look at the SCO case if you want to learn more about the history of xenix.

Re:Again?

[nuser]

I used xenix, running on a 286 in the mid/late 1980s.Windows 3 might have been available but I don't think so. In any event xenix was far more capable for the task. (Overnight dialup of ~400 shops, collection and consolidation of takings and then upload to mainframe).

My first experience of a *nix system that didn't belong to someone else...

GNU/Linux? Where?

[Pope Raymond Lama]

We better get another article to link here. Because the one I F. Read has almost zero about anything Linux, and is covered top to botton with microsoftish stuff.

Mandrake linux is mentioned but once, and in this context: " and the ministry is testing localized builds of Mandrake Linux. ".

I mean....there is by no ways a contrac, or anything. The only contractes mentioned on the F.A. are the ones signed to microsoft, both old and new.

Nowere in the article it is said anything about money saving in changing into FLOSS. Actually, by reading it one gets the impression that FLOSS alternatives will cost far higher than current deals with microsoft.

Open office itself is mentioned three times, one of them in a quote from m$ spokespersons saing it is worse tah microsoft office 97.

To sun it up, IMO, either this article is pro microsoft, or there is nothing going on over there - move along.

Re:Mixed emotions

[TheLoneCabbage]

I can't believe some idiot moded you insightfull. This is a fake quote. And you took the bait. Who's the bigger fool? The fool with the idea, or the fool who follows him (Obi Wan Kanobie Z"Tzl)

Why is it that every time someone mentions Israel, doing some technological feet, be it adopting Linux (about bloody time) or curring cancers (yeah they have), some flaim bate comes on and thinks it's funny to start spewing filth.

Not everything you hear on the news is true. And certainly not everything you think about another is relevant for posting here!

I'd debate your "facts" but I'd run the risk of giving you some kind of bizare validation.

Stop trolling and stay on topic you shmuck!

Re:Are you one of the MOSSAD ?

[sniggly]

Let's make sure we ban the use of OSS in all of Russia because the tens of thousands of people being killed in Chechnya.

I don't understand people who continue to moan about Israel when there are areas on this planet where people get killed by the bushel for what they believe in or what ethnicity they belong to, and nobody complains. We (in the west) don't care about the Muslem Chechnyans. Neither do the muslems in the mideast. No, it's all about how those Israelis kill poor defenseless Palestinians. It's because Israelis are mostly Jews, and it's fashionable to be a bigot again.

I remember this Palestinian Authority TV broadcast where they taught kids that blowing up Jews would get them to heaven. Arab propaganda teaches the older palestinians that blowing up Jews gets you laid in heaven (with virgins!). That's terrorist propaganda often paid for through oil revenue, paid for by our money!

Israel is the only place in the middle east where Arabs have the right to vote. It's often forgotten that Israel is the only democracy in the mideast, that there are Arabs in the Knesset, that Ariel Sharon is the elected prime minster of a people where everyone knows someone who has been killed or injured by terrorists.

When Diplomacy Fails

[ReadParse]

WASHINGTON, DC - Only minutes after Secretary of State Colin Powell this morning announced that computing talks with Israel had broken down, Communications Minister Reuven Rivlin held a press conference to declare that Israel intended to go ahead with this week's planned Mandrake Linux testing.

Minister Rivlin downplayed the computing tensions that might result along the Lebanese border. "Israel's computing sovereignty will not be challenged. If we want to move to BeOS, HP-UX, Solaris, PC-DOS... we cannot yield to world opinion when it comes to protecting our right to compute as God promised us we would be able to do."

Israel's testing of Mandrake Linux comes on the tails of a 7-month period of testing of FreeBSD by most of that countries Arab neighbors. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had instructed Minister Rivlin in recent weeks to begin preparations for Linux testing, despite President Bush's calls for restraint.

A Microsoft spokesman expressed sadness in a telephone conference call with the press this morning. "This is about more than a contract between the government of Israel and Microsoft," he said with a cracking voice. "It's about the stability of computing standards in the Middle East. I can't stop thinking about those kids." It is unclear at press time what in the world he was talking about.

Life in the day of an Israeli

[TheLoneCabbage]

Sorry for the off topic, but I'm sick of this nonsense. If I can put some sense into one pea brain then I hve to . Mod me as you will.

As we know all Israeli's are evil. After living here for a year, I thought I'd translate a days activities to you:

Avi a dark skined man walks out of his mansion, onto a street filled with mansions, and climbs into his car. A 50 ton armourd bulldozer. Suddenly his cell phone rings.

Avi: Shalom! (hi/peace/goodbye)

Yitzak: Hey Avi, how's it going?

Avi: Well it was a rough day yesterday. I was too busy studying the King James Bible in english to get any real work done.

Yitzak: You know Sharons going to get really upset with you if you don't get your quota in.

Avi: How am I supposed to kill 10,000 arab children a day and still have time to spend with my wife and kids?

Yitzak: Well I was just calling you to let you know I'm building a new settlement.

Avi: Don't you already have 5 already?

Yitzak: Yeah, but I already drove the arabs out of those areas, so I thought I'd build another one. I could have chosen any of the thousands of hecktars of land that are empty, but it's just no fun without destroying a fellow human beings life.

Avi: Oh that reminds me, did you get the buliten in the mail about the last Elders Meeting?

Yitzak: Yeah, wow, were doing great! Bush even came this time! Even bowed down for Sharon. It was a real crowd pleaser. I'm telling you it's been gravey train ever since the Holocost. Best thing that ever happend to us.

Avi: Ok I gotta go, and meet quota. Catch up latter at the cafe?

Yitzak: Sure thing budy! The "Childrens Blood" is on me!

Avi: Shalom!

Yitzak: Shalom!

Wake up call.

Fact:

* Israeli's don't drive bulldozers to work.

* Israeli's are no fonder of seeing children die needlessly than anyone else.

* Jews don't drink human blood, and if you believe this it's also a fact your a moron.

* 50% of Israelis are from Iraqi, Syrian, Moraccan, Yeminite, Egyptian, Iranian, Jordainian, Afgani, Saudi, Lebanesse, and/or local descent. They tell no plesent stories from their home lands.

* No arab village has ever been raized to make way for a jewish one, except in cases where the land was owned by "Israelies" pre-48, or in cases of tacticle need. In which case it's eminant domain, and the arab land owners are compensated.

* 25% of Israelies are not jewish

* 80% of Jewish Israelies, don't practice any religion. And half of those profess radical secularism. Despite the fact that they actualy speak hebrew, most have never read any section of the Torah (old testament), and have at best a vauge idea of what it is.

* Most Israelies would rather just get on with thier lives. They neither hate nore care what happens to the "Palistinians" any more.

* Arabs can and do, walk in Zionist shopping malls, grocerie stores, parks, and public schools. Jews who walkin Arab neiboorhoods are likley to be shot/stabed/beaten etc...

If you've never been here, you have no right to comment and certainly no right to condemn. If you do live here, you still have no right to condemn, and certainly no right to spread lies and half truths.

There, now I feel better.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[ajakk]

P.S. Setting up straw man arguments on behalf of those opposed to you doesn't advance the debate . I totally agree. It is just like comparing Israel to South Africa without putting any justification behind your statements.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[TheLoneCabbage]

I was going to actually argue back. But then you ran up the colors.

Your comment about the gravy train since the Holocaust is, however, fairly close to the truth. Everytime someone brings up something about how Israel is violating international law by confiscating more land for its settlements (which no one, including the United States recognizes as legitimate) the old song about how the jews suffered under Nazi rule is brought out to justify the actions.

Yet another conspiracy freak, lunatic. It's people like you who make me want to gauge out my frontal lobe with a spoon so it can all just start making sense some how...

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[TheLoneCabbage]

I'll leave the South Africa response to ajakk, who I think hit the nail on the head.

But while your right, that it's no great compliment to say their indifferent... It is when you consider the context of the last 4 years. And the Israeli indifference is stark when you compare it agains the other side of the negotiating table.

It's not much, but it's really all that's left.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Umber Hulk]

the similarities to the Apartheid state are illuminating.

Well,then, the similarities between the Arab states and South Africa should be even more illuminating.

Going after Israel for its "apartheid" is like dragging someone with 5 speeding tickets to court, and ignoring all that person's neighbors with 2 counts of DUI.

Arabs in Israel have orders of magnitude more rights than corresponding Jews in Arab countries. Maybe the equality isn't perfect, but it's damn better than Jews.

Look at Jordan. What is it's Jewish population? ZERO! Not even a few Jews scattered about. NO JEWS AT ALL! Talk about ethnic cleansing. In fact, Jews are explicitly forbidden from becoming citizens of Jordan.

But hey, lets instead argue that Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem don't have as well-tended streets as rich Jewish neighborhoods. Yeah, that's it.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[TheLoneCabbage]

Man those arabs are getting a GREAT deal!

Emenent domain is a basic concept of gov't. For the case of public good the gov't can force you to sell your land. IE for a road, a water main, a military base. Happens all the time, and in every country in the world.

Well duh! If their home lands were all fun and games, they wouldn't have moved to Israel.

Thankyou for conceding to the point of Israel's existance. To provide an safe haven not just for WW2 jewish refugees(6million out of 40million were jews, most war refugees were actually ethnic Germans), but also for the jewish refugees of arab lands.

So basically people should only make favorable or indifferent comments concerning Israel?

Well let's start with something simple, like consistancy. For instance if you were against the latest invasion of Iraq, favoring the world not be involved in another countries politics. I would imagine you should say nothing about Israel at all.

I dont' advocate that. People need to become aware of the situation here, and of the middle east in general, and prepared fully to understand that there is nothing WESTERN or CIVILIZED about this situation. Most people have no idea what goes on here, besides what they see on CNN or what they here from the choir at "peace" rallies.

If what your really asking is "How can anyone critisize Israel without being labled and anti-semite?" it's easy. If your American just replace "Jews" with "Blacks".

Example:
"I have lots of Jewish and Arab, I'm not biased"
"I have lot's of black and spanish friends, I'm not a bigot"

See how bad that sounds?

Example2:
"Jews should leave israel to the arabs and go back to where they came from"
... nah not even worth it.

Example3:
"Israelies should not assume all Palastinians are bombers"
"Blacks should not assume all white people are in the KKK"
Wow it's not racist!!

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[TheLoneCabbage]

hey, I'm totaly with you here but.. which rich neighboorhoods are those? Ramat Beit Hakerim and ....

It's a huge joke. People think jews are all rich, but Israel is so frigging poor that they buy used underwear for their soldiers (I'm not kidding).

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Umber Hulk]

hey, I'm totaly with you here but.. which rich neighboorhoods are those? Ramat Beit Hakerim and ....

I was expressing sarcasm because the concept of 'rich Jews, poor exploited Palestinians' is perpetrated so often many 'enlightened' folk actually believe it.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[TheLoneCabbage]

trust me. being in the keneset is no proof of not being israeli.

but that same quote could apply to most any country in the world. Wellcome to the paradox of beurocracy. Can't live with it, can't run a gov't without it.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[TheLoneCabbage]

correction:
trust me. being in the keneset is no proof of not being israeli

should read

trust me. being in the keneset is no proof of not being anti-semetic.

heheeheh (fingers faster than brain... must find coffee)

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[arikb]

Heck, Arabs in Israel have orders of magnitude more rights than corresponding Arabs in Arab countries.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Minna Kirai]

Arabs in Israel have orders of magnitude more rights than corresponding Jews in Arab countries.

Percentage of adult Jews born in Egypt who can vote: 100%
Percentage of adult (non-Jewish) Arabs born in Israel who can vote: 19%

Look at Jordan. What is it's Jewish population? ZERO!

That's something Zionist Israel encouraged. They wanted to be the sole concentration of Jews in the Middle East. This was a goal both to increase their own population, but also to curry favor with the nonadjacent Arab states.

In fact, Jews are explicitly forbidden from becoming citizens of Jordan.

And non-Jews, born in Israel, are explicitly forbidden from becoming citizens of Israel. Until Israel stops giving special preference to one certain religion, that nation deserves no respect from any modern democracy.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Minna Kirai]

'rich Jews, poor exploited Palestinians'

The average Zionist Israeli is more than 10x as wealthy as the average Palestinian.

70% of the fresh-water used by Israel comes from Palestine. The daily water use of a Zionist is six times that of a Palestinian. If the Jews had to pay for it, instead of taking it by force, the economic disparities would be reversed within a decade.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Umber Hulk]

The average Zionist Israeli is more than 10x as wealthy as the average Palestinian.

so, what's your point? The average Palestinian is richer than the average aboriginal Bushman tribe member.

I guess the difference between Palestinians and Israelis is that when the Israeli immigrants came who were kicked out of their homes in other Arab and European countries, they got on with their lives and worked hard.

Most Palestinians, it seems, would rather destroy their own lives wallowing in sewage mudholes, hoping to get back arbitrary land most of them have never lived in, than move on with their lives.

Jordan has offered citizenship to any Palestinian, but most choose not to get on with their lives.

The daily water use of a Zionist is six times that of a Palestinian. If the Jews had to pay for it, instead of taking it by force, the economic disparities would be reversed within a decade.

Interesting, you only compare Israel and Palestine. Why not Jordan and Palestine, or Egypt and Palestine, on this same statistic?

Anyway, Israelis are paying Egypt for water in new agreements. But I wouldn't expect clueless leftists who hate Israel more than they love Palestine to actually be interested in real news.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Umber Hulk]

And non-Jews, born in Israel, are explicitly forbidden from becoming citizens of Israel.

What?

Uggh, this is what happens when people get all their Israel/Palestine news from electronicintifada.com.

And please justify your statistic that 19% of Arabs in Israel can vote, it seems highly misleading to me (yada yada yada lies damn lies statistics).

I hope you hate Saudi Arabia as much as Israel, because they are even more pro-Islam than Israel is pro-Jewish. In fact, other religions cannot be legally and openly practiced there.

But hey, why criticize any other country, Israel is the only bad player in the Middle East.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Umber Hulk]

What I do hate is the policy of certain countries. What I do hate is when people try to justify their acts because it was done to them.

Oh, you mean like Palestinian suicide bombers?

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Peaker]

could have fooled me. if they're not fond of killing children then why continue to do so ?

Why don't you include some references so we know what the heck you're talking about?

what about the land owned by the arabs pre-48 ? no compensation, no right of return, nothing... another case of where its ok for Israel but not for the arabs.

Compensation? Those arabs left those villages on order from their own leaders, promising "ethnic cleansing" of the region's Jews. Should they be allowed back after they left of their own free will, and given back all of their property?

and thery're treated as second class citizens, and are not really considered "Israelies".

Second-class citizens in what way? Sure, its harder for them to get a job, and its hard for the army to trust them with all the hostilities going on. Hell, regarding the mandatory army service they get a choice whether they want to volunteer.

Arabs and all other citizens of Israel are equal by law and any inequalities are a result of inter-citizen relations. In a non-perfect hostile situation problems amongst citizens arise (See the status of Japense citizens in the US during WWII).

then why let the religious idiots run the country ? why call it a Jewish state and deny rights to people who are not Jewish ?

HUH?! How many in the government are religious? How many were religious in the last 5 governments?

Calling it a "Jewish State" is because its main purpose is to be a sanctuary for Jews from around the world -- what rights exactly are being denied from non-Jews?

just look the other way while their goverment commits horrific acts on their behalf ? kind of reminds me of a certain dictator in Germany.

You see, most Israelis get their information from better sources than you - for example, they serve in the territories during their reserves or they have friends that do. And thus, they see exactly how bad the situation is and what Israel is doing there.

With their vastly superior (to yours) source of information, they decide what Israel is doing is not worse than required in the situation (Putting roadblocks is bad, but far from genocide).

more bs.

Ah, now that I know its BS maybe I should try to go for a trip in an Arab city? Oh, right, it was already tried.

How many counter-examples are there?

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[dvk]

> > Arabs in Israel have orders of magnitude more rights than corresponding Jews in Arab countries.

> Percentage of adult Jews born in Egypt who can vote: 100%
> Percentage of adult (non-Jewish) Arabs born in Israel who can vote: 19%

OK, first of all, that 19% figure is not true. Have any facts to back it up? AFAIK, there are NO special restrictions on voting that apply to Israeli Arabs vs Israeli Jews.

Now, how about real figures:
====
[ for baseline numbers: Arab population of Israel is 20% ]
====

Number of Arab parties in Knesset (Israel's parlament):
3 out of 12 (25%).
This doesn't include a couple of ultra-liberal parties that aren't Arab but often take pro-Arab views.

Number of Jewish political parties in any Arab country legistlative body: 0.

Oh, and for historical reference, the first Arab to be elected to Knesset was in the Second Kneset, in 1951. 3 years and 1 election after the formation of the State of Israel.

====

Number of Arab political parties that ran for Knesset recently (includes the numbers above plus all the parties that got less than 1.5% of the vote and thus didn't gain any seats in the Knesset):
5 out of 27 (~20%), not including several ultra-left parties taht take pro-Arab positions.

Number of Jewish political parties in any Arab country: 0.

====

Number of Arab Knesset members who openly and vocally claimed taht they want the destruction of the State of Israel: at least 2. If you doubt, google for some speaches/statements from MK Ahmed Tibi or especially MK Azmi Bishara.

Number of parlament members of ANY other country with similar views about their country: none I'm aware of. In a lot of countries, such would be considered state treason.

====

OK, you can now put on your tinfoil hat.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Minna Kirai]

they got on with their lives and worked hard.

Worked hard at invading other's homes with military equipment donated by the US.

Worked hard at narcissistically drenching wheat to coax it from the desert, while Palestinians haven't even enough to drink.

hoping to get back arbitrary land most of them have never lived in, than move on with their lives.

You're talking about the Zionists there, right? Because they're the ones who invaded arbitrary land that neither they, nor their ancestors for 50 generations back, had ever lived on. While by now, most Palestinian's who'd lived in Jerusalem have been killed, it's not 100% yet. And their parents certainly lived there.

Anyway, Israelis are paying Egypt for water in new agreements. But I wouldn't expect clueless leftists who hate Israel more than they love Palestine to actually be interested in real news.

That's not news. Nor is it mildly relevant. Even if they pay Egypt, they're not paying the Palestinians. (It's also unlikely to be significantly true, since Egypt is forbidden to sell their water)

The single gravest offense Israel is committing is refusing to allow adults who were born in their nation to vote, without a conversion certificate signed by an Orthodox (not Reform) Rabbi. Until they change this theocratic policy, they will never deserve support.

Their second-worse offense is government-ordered assasination (including, but not limited to, foreigners in their homelands)

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[shachart]

You're comparing apples and oranges here, as sibling posts state.

An average jewish family in Israel has 2 parents and ~3.5 kids.
An average arab family in Israel has 3 parents (Man is married to two wives), plus an average of 8 kids from EACH wife, amounting to 14-16 kids.

Now you see the reason for Arabs being relatively poor.

As for water, 90% of Israeli water come from the Kinnereth, which is 100% Israeli territory. Have any evidence to the contrary.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[shachart]

Calling it a "Jewish State" is because its main purpose is to be a sanctuary for Jews from around the world -- what rights exactly are being denied from non-Jews?

A correction: The State of Israel was not declared as a "Jewish State", but as "State for the Jews", as in sanctuary from prosecutions (before, during, after WWII). The Israeli Independence Bill of Rights (Megilat Ha'Hatzmaut) states that "no person shall be descriminiated by religion, gender, profession ..." etc., and it has become a Foundation Law in Israel (Chok Yesod), sort of like a quasi-consitution.

So Israel does not, as a country, promote descrimination. But, in a state of war, you cannot prevent inter-personal relationships from skewing from the norm.

Personally, before the Intifada has started, I visited many Arab cities and villages. Today, if I go there, I'd probably be beaten to death or something.... I guess the same would go the other way around, though Israelis will NEVER beat to death an Arab who wanders off into an Israeli city or village.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Gramie2]

Bingo! 1988-91 as a volunteer. It's, er, character building for a computer geek to live in a hut (no water or electricity).

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Gramie2]

Not supplying a complete bibliography is not exactly the same as using a specious argument. The previous response carried a good quotation.

In a nutshell, both countries have used law and military might to exclude large portions of their populations from basic rights. In both cases, the oppressed people fought back. I won't try to justify suicide bombings, because I think there is no justification, but I do believe that the Palestinians feel they have NO CHOICE.

The word "apartheid" simply means separateness. The whites in South Africa decided that they would have their land, and the blacks would have theirs. Never mind that 15% of the population enjoyed 80% of the land (leaving the parts with not agricultural, mineral or economic value).

If you really are interested, there are dozens of excellent books and movies to help you understand what was going on in South Africa.

And then of course, S.A. and Israel were cooperating in the development of missiles (supplied by S.A.) that could carry nuclear warheads (supplied by Israel). Yes, they understood each other.

Re:Life in the day of an Israeli

[Gramie2]

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
--Elie Wiesel

What do you mean "out of context"?

And what do you know about how I feel or what my city is like?

Re:Good move.

[uradu]

> Israelies invented ICQ, PHP, the UAV, A couple of smart bombs and some [more killing tech]

That's "developed" more than "invented", though one might argue where one stops and the other begins.

> Don't refer to Israel as third world country. Please.

Well, South Africa is very similar to Isreal in those areas, yet it's also still struggling to get some respect.

Re:Good move.

[escallywag]

I bet the CIA gets a small collective panic attack every time they lose track of what the Israelis are upto. I think you have that the wrong way around...

Microsoft's mistake

[Sire Enaique]

The Israeli decision probably stems from Microsoft's faux pas last year when they announced that Office XP for MAc would not be localized in Hebrew.

See _Microsoft's Mac Hebrew snub prompts Israeli AntiTrust complaint_ from the register:
www.theregister.com/content/archive/296 92.html

Even if they apparently subsequently reversed their decision the damage was done.

An important factor here is Israel has a buoyant IT industry and Microsoft's initial decision highlighted the danger of relying too heavily on one single software supplier.

Re:Microsoft's mistake

[arn0n]

" The Israeli decision probably stems from Microsoft's faux pas last year when they announced that Office XP for MAc would not be localized in Hebrew."

Apple's share of the market is tiny in Israel. The small amount of people actually using a mac don't really expect hebrew support. This is because Apple's representatives in Israel could never be relied upon to drive localization efforts, or give good support for localized software.

"An important factor here is Israel has a buoyant IT industry and Microsoft's initial decision highlighted the danger of relying too heavily on one single software supplier."

Microsoft's representatives, however, are doing a relatively good job at localizing software, and an excellent job at marketing it. It is enough seeing that the IDF uses it for desktops almost exclusively, and to my great horror, also uses it on servers (I guess this is due to the blanket contract that they signed with microsoft).
Furthermore, although this is a good point that is raised here, we're talking about the government; nobody in the government cares about being tied to a single supplier, and proof of that is the telephone monopoly, energy monopoly, airline monopoly, sea-ports monopoly, and I can go on and on...

Re:Microsoft's mistake

[Sire Enaique]

I do not doubt that Apple's market share is very limited in Israel - like everywhere else. What is important here is the symbol, not the number of affected pepople.

Besides, I don't see the government having any trouble with the monopolies you mentionned because they're state monopolies in Israel. Microsoft is an entirely different animal.

Re:Microsoft's mistake

[arn0n]

Well, this is quickly getting off-topic, but I just can't resist:
In israel, the state has almost no control over state monopolies, and the fact that the entire country is on strike for several months now is a testament to that... Compared to that, a multinational corporation like microsoft, is less transient.
As to depending on it - Microsoft is an American corporation. Israel relies on many such corporations to the point of almost exclusivity, mainly in the military sector.

It is largely known here that the wink in Mandrake's direction (and OOo) is merely a posture for the upcoming renegotiation of the contract between the govt. and MS. The govt. is pissed off that a large Israeli health organization got the same deal for a 1/3 of the price per license.

Switching Protects Also

[Bruha]

Many companies still have yet to forgive MS for not sufficiently fixing bugs and they suffer from all the virii that have been criscrossing the internet. It's not enough to take any and all precautions becuase there's still the human element that can always get a virus past the best firewalls. Code red and friends have cost businesses millions and if I'm a IT consultant I would be quick to point out that Linux is free and the virii have cost us more than the license fees.

Re:It already get a David star on it

[palutz]

Mandrake has a five pointed star ( think one hand) and the star of david has six ( think one hand plus another finger , unless you are you have some weird birth abnormality we should know about).

Sharon, Mandrake

[Quantum-Sci]

I've used/put up with, Suse for 3 years. Its gone from terribly buggy to fairly good, and back to terrible. I have never had printing, faxing, PIM & PDA functions working in Suse, because I knew from experience that it'd take 3 days to hunt down each of the hidden errors and get each little function working; and these were usually dumb errors too... distro errors. My conclusion is, the guys at Suse must hate their job. I had given them chance, after chance, after chance. Got absolutely fed up when Suse9 recently fell apart into a steaming pile.

See, what is really happening is, something's bad wrong at Suse, and they are effectively transferring their costs to the customer. To all who have tried Linux and failed to get it working satisfactorily, experienced people have this problem too. Assuming you hate M$ like I do, it's a question of how you want to spend your time: bit-twiddling, or with family/friends.

In desperation I tried Mandrake9.2, about two weeks ago. I was skeptical because I'd heard bad things about Mandrake8.x, and of their financial problems. But man, 9.2 works.

I can actually print on my beloved Alps MD5000, I can capture photos from a camera, capture video and compress to DivX... IOW stuff just works. Only problems I've had with Mandrake were because my bios was set to Legacy (for the benefit of Suse), and the weird abstracted (Debian) menuing. But nothing does not work -- a very functional, fast tool to actually get work done.

Thank you Mandrake. May you continue this trend.

Re: Israel -- In my opinion, Israel is now perpetrating its own Holocaust, and has been so for years. God will damn you, Gen. Sharon. 'Nuff said.

Re:Sharon, Mandrake

[Umber Hulk]

Israel -- In my opinion, Israel is now perpetrating its own Holocaust, and has been so for years. God will damn you, Gen. Sharon. 'Nuff said. [ Reply to This ]

Where are the death camps?

If you think Israel is perpetrating its own Holocause, are you man enough to admit also acknowledge that Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan are as well?

Re:Good move.

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel is a third world country speaking about human rights.

Re:Israeli Gov't Begins Testing Zyklon-B

[DJBanaan]

This kind of thing makes me sick to my stomach. I'm not even going to argue on this, because I know your probably some 13 year-old twat who thinks he's being funny. Let me clear up the misunderstanding: this is pretty fucking far from funny.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

subsidized by the US?!---WTF

[Ensign Nemo]

"An Israeli Ministry of Defense procurement delegation signed a framework agreement with Microsoft in New York and the deal will reportedly be subsidized by the United States."

The US gov. is subsizing MS software for another country?! Good grief! It's bad enought Bush made the anti-trust suit go away; now this?

Re:subsidized by the US?!---WTF

[rock_climbing_guy]

Expain to me how the Bush Administration made the anti-trust suit go away, please.

Re:Good move.

[wiresquire]

CreatorofSmallTruths said:
The fact that Israel is in Asia doesn't mean a
thing...

Must post reply.....Aarrggh!...too many jokes.....brain exploding....

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[Umber Hulk]

What is the difference between a Zionist and a White Supremacist?

You're demonstrating your great ignorance here.

Zionism is merely the belief that Jews have a right to have a Jewish state.

Zionism in itself is absolutely no more racist than the belief by Muslims that there can exist Muslim states, or Christians for a Christian state, etc.

As the subsequent poster said, zealots have hijacked Zionism, so now general people such as yourself think it means the right to create a Jewish state, kick out anybody else who's not Jewish, etc. This is NOT what Zionism is, please don't confuse these two.

And while you're making comparisons to White Supremecism, let's acknowledge that this is what many Arab Supremacists do. Look at Hamas. They will not let any non-Arab outsider immigrate to their land, and will wear masks and terrorize them until they're either dead or gone. Exactly the same as the KKK.

The interesting thing is that while liberals strongly denounce the KKK and its efforts to create an ethnically-pure free-of-outsiders white Christian culture. But at the same time many liberals strongly support xenophobic Arab supremacists that won't let non-Arabs immigrate to their land and contaminate their ethnically-pure Arab culture.

Re:Mixed emotions

[Umber Hulk]

most people currently claiming to be "Jewish" are from the Caucasian Ashkenazi.

Are you from the US?

There are more Sephardic Jews in Israel than Ashkenazic. And there's a significant population of Israeli Jews that are Arab Jews, ie from Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc.

And your comment about Orthodox Rabbis being critical of the modern Israeli state, I wouldn't count on them being your anti-Israel allies. In most cases, these Rabbis are just as fanatical as the pro-settlement Rabbis. The difference is how the two interpret one section of Jewish scripture. The anti-Israel Rabbis interpret it to mean that Jews should wait for G-d's return in the diaspora, instead of the holy land. If they interpreted the scripture to mean to remain in Jerusalem, you'd bet all these Rabbis would instantly change their opinion.

Re:Good move.

[startxxx]

Yeah... only we, Israelis may call our country a third world country ;-)

Fixed, marginal time costs

[4of12]

In case of a word processor, I'd say that nothing the word processor will do makes a significant impact, even with Clippy ;). All the work goes into forming the letter

I agree.

But don't forget the costs to the letter composer in initial training and learning of the application, as well as the time it actually takes to compose a letter.

I believe the single largest impediment to more widespread adoption of Open Office is fear of having to climb yet another learning curve.

What the market will bear

[Morosoph]

Uh, any economist should tell you that "what the market will bear" is one of the fundamentals of capitalism - it's hardly something that's just popped up in the last few decades.

Not quite. First level analysis, yes, but then customers tend to buy what they did last time, so greatest immediate profits may not be synonymous with long-term profitability.

I was going to make a pun about "bear markets", but it seemed rather poor, and thought that slashdotters would "correct" the joke, po-faced, so I won't.

Does anyone else notice all the Anonymous going on

[TheLoneCabbage]

I'm just noticing that not one anti-israel poster has been anything other than anonymous. Of course by posting this I invite contridiciton.

kay sara sara.

No right to comment and no right to condemn

[Rupert]

How about the hundreds of dollars I personally pay each year that pays for the tanks and bulldozers that aren't demolishing the homes of those deemed insufficiently jewish to be citizens of the country in which they live? I'd say that gives me a right to comment.

Re:No right to comment and no right to condemn

[TwinkieStix]

The major problem we see here is the definition of occupation. What is an occupation. How long must you occupy before it's not longer an occupation. Israel is occupying Palestine? Perhaps. Most would agree that the US is occupying Iraq, but most would argue that the US is not occupying California, which was stolen from Mexico a little over a hundred years ago. So,
1 year=occupation.
150 years=ownership
What's 50 years? Maybe this'll all be over in another 100 years? Probably not.

Maybe in 150 years, Mandrake will still occupy the Israeli desktop.

I am happy Mandrake is being used globally. It's only good for my favorite Distribution.

Re:Does anyone else notice all the Anonymous going

[MrPink2U]

Why would you expect anything else from a group that is so desperately searching for their identity?

Ha! Arutz 7...

[hendrix69]

For those of you who don't know, Aruz 7 is a pirate radio station owned and operated by and for the exteremly religious parties in Israel. Kind of like the christian evangalist channels that operate in the US - only jewish and with less money. This "news" radio station was shut down recently by an injuction for broadcasting over illegal radio frequencies that disturb flight and ship navigation systems. The station broadcasts to the exteremly religious minority of Israel, the kind that is not allowed to listen to other "secular" radio and TV channels because they are considered by that community Obsene and Immoral. :)
Funny this tech-news piece should come from Aruz 7, as it is the least respectable news source in Israel (unless you consider Hamas and Fatah (Arafat) broadcasting as Israeli media).

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[powerbarr]

Wow an anonymous coward is actually going to deny Israeli's his software. I am sure they are so sad. What did you write "hello world?"

Re:I don't support Zionists.

[fermion]

Which is curious. What is the difference between a Zionist and a White Supremacist? Both believe that God has given them dominion over their land and right to kill anyone who resides on it that they don't like.
The reason that such things should not be included is that it is hard to quantize. For instance, if I included the clause 'This software should only be used by people who believe that all humans are equal', which is a much less bigoted statement than yours, how would i enforce it? it arguable that some Jews who believe they are the children of god are arguable out of this catagory. It is arguable that some catholics who believe that certain people cannot be priests are out of the this catagory. it is arguable that certai companies do not function as if all workers are potentially equal.

The reason that this discussion is pointless is because almost every religion, at least in the west, is bigoted. Many demand conformity. Many say that others are less than they are. Many have arbitrary restrictions on leadership. You are subjected one group to individual scrutiny that is not applied to the population in general. That is the definition of a bigot.

Re:Israel and Chechnya

[sniggly]

Your tax dollars are being used to dismantle russian nukes, to pay off russian NBC scientists. If these dollars weren't available less money would be on the russian budget of which the war in Chechnya is a serious item.

How is that any different?

Huh?

[Peaker]

What "genocide" are you talking about exactly?

Do you have any evidence? Are you even following up on anything that's happening or just having the typical knee-jerk reaction in favor of "the underdog"?

Correction

[Rayonic]

You're forgetting your history. Think, what world-wide event could have bolstered the Zionist case among the Jews? That's right, WORLD WAR 2!

That you would pass over such a huge event puts a shadow of doubt over your entire summary.

Re:Correction

[Doc Ruby]

Anonymous Coward, you are a sick fuck. Just ask my father's friends about their starring role in the Holocaust. Featured scene: as they hide in a Polish attic from the genocidal gestapo, their infant begins to scream. ...pause for effect... they suffocate the baby, saving them all from a much slower death by starvation or gas in a concentration camp. Spotlight on their agonized faces, enduring a greater torture than you can probably imagine, to avoid the only greater torture possible.

Only it's not a movie. It's just something that some people forced on some other people 50 years ago in Europe. And the spectre of its repeat lurks beneath the civilized veneer of everyone who says that such things cannot, did not happen. Your denial betrays your barbaric bloodthirst, dehumanizing the persecution of others. It is not necessary to deny the Holocaust to defend Palestinians from a new genocide. In fact, it is essential to recognize just how inhuman humans can be. Nor is it necessary to perpetuate nonsense like a preposterous Jewish media conspiracy for world domination. For perspective, look at the relative media ownership by Arabs, vanishingly few of whom are Jews. Before you spout insane, childish libel about the Holocaust and its children, take advantage of your last chances to talk with a living survivor about just what can happen when racism is used without bounds for political control. Future generations won't have our advantage of direct connection to that crucial lesson.

Re:At least SOMEONE is testing Mandrake, finally!

[TrekCycling]

It's not a troll, it's the truth. Mod me back up.

Re:Good move.

[rhuntley12]

Laser also takes out artilery. And isn't broadband more available there? Look at the literacy rate And third world country with nukes is scary.

Re:Good move.

[Anonymous Coward]

I refer to Israel as a shitty Arab-killing country. I hope the Palestinians drive it into the sea.

Re:At least SOMEONE is testing Mandrake, finally!

[reub2000]

Very, very true. When in mandrake 9.2, if I try to logout, instead of going to mdkkdm, it logs me back in imeditatly. The only way to shutdown was the command halt. So I installed fedora core 1 and I've been happy since. I do home that mandrake 10 is stable. Life without urpmi is very, very misirable.

Context is key

[PsiPsiStar]

The situation was a little different in Germany. The Jews in Germany never waged a war to "push the Germans into the sea." If German Jews had gotten millitary aid from the French, the British and the Russians and had united with them to wage an agressive war against Germany, bombing German shopping malls and churches on Christmas and Easter and vowing to take over all of Germany's land and slaughter its citizens there would be more people ready to defend Hitler's actions. I can't imagine many Germans would be eager to allow Jews back to their homes if even a slim majority of Jews had attempted this. Maybe if the minority had stayed and helped defend the country (like the Druzes stayed and helped defend Israel), but not if they had sided with the agressors.

Israel has been put in some difficult moral situations. When you're attacked by armies from literally all directions with soldiers ten times yours in number, what do you do?

Or, when you're attacked by soldiers who don't wear uniforms and hide in the civilian population demanding the destruction of your nation and murdering your citizens, decade after decade, how do you fight them?

Every 'peace offer' put forward by the Palestinians has included the 'Palestinian right of return.' No nation in history has voluntarily allowed such a large number of hostile immigrants into its country in proportion to its population and survived as a nation. We can find Israel's response distasteful or excessive. We can condemn them and feel better. But I'm curious what nation has ever been in such a threatening situation and maintained as many civil liberties. Maybe the Native Americans, or some other people who saw their nation destroyed. Returning captured land is the only tactic which has ever secured any kind of peace for Israel. Measured responses might eliminate attackers, but they are not deterants. Appeasement is never sufficient if some of those murdering your people believe that only the destruction of your nation is a moral outcome.

The present day conflict is not a snapshot in time. A person witnessing the end of World War II might see an allied invasion of Nazi Germany and consider it unjust.

The people opposed to Israel's policies are most often those who don't think it's important that Jews have lived in the territory of Israel for the better part of three millenia, often under foreign occupation and as second class citizens. For once, they are fighting for their own nation. The PLO attacked Israel first, demanding Israel's destruction and not the other way around. The PLO demands 'the Palestinian right of return' which is, for all practical purposes, the same as allowing an invading army into your territory. Many Palestinian millitant factions still demand the total destruction of Israel. There are not enough police in the world to solve the crisis that the "Palestinian right of return" would create.

>Fair enough. It's theirs, give it back.

German Jews didn't get their property back. They got compensation. A small but significant difference, since we're dealing with holy land here. What's that worth?

>Everytime someone brings up something about how >Israel is violating international law by >confiscating more land for its settlements
>(which no one, including the United States
> recognizes as legitimate) the old song about >how the jews suffered under Nazi rule is >brought out to justify the actions.

You're right. Whenever someone brings somthing up about Israelis violating international law, the Israelis should instead point out how a number of other nations in the middle east (or elsewhere) are violating international law or how that law is applied hypocritically.

In 1975, the U.N. General Assembly passed Resolution 3379, proclaiming "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination." Never mind that pre-1948, a large number of Jews were violently forced out of their homes in various Arab nations with no compensation given. Even today, it's still illegal to

Are you an idiot?

[AtheismIsGood]

Hello superyooser.

It's not the Israelies who blow themselves up in buses and kill many innocent children. ...but it is the Israelis who form death squads, torture palestinians and kills civilians in refugee camps.

How do you suggest palestinians should defend themselves? Their land is occupied. They have no army or military capacity that is even a fraction of Israel's. Bear in mind that killing yourself is not an easy choice.

It's not the Israelies who contribute to charities to fund terror groups.

Are you crazy? That would be the United States that is pouring in billions in military aid to Israel.

It's not the Israelies who have a dictatorial government.

The palestinian people have been denied a government for a long time. How do you expect palestinians to organize when Israel denies them that right?

It's not the Israelies who have vowed to wipe their neighbor from the face of the earth.

But the Israelis certainly are in the lead:

________________Israelis____Palestinians
Children Killed _____106____________494
Civilians Killed_____632__________2,317
Assassinations _______1____________297

Bystanders killed
in the course
of Assassination____________________145


It's not the Israelies who are teaching both in schools and mosques their children to hate.

According to a 1977 UNESCO report, Israeli authorities systematically doctored the textbooks on history, geography, and literature used by Palestinian children to eliminate references to Palestine.

So, it should be no surpise that Israelies are at WAR.

It should be no surprise Palestinians are pissed when their country is invaded and occupied!

Are you really an idiot?

[AtheismIsGood]

I know because I follow the news over there very closely.

It comes as no surprise to me that you are following Fox news very closely. Do you really find it strange that the Palestinians would like the Israelis to leave?

If you denounce UN resolutions and claim they have no credibility, what right do you think Israelis have to claim land in Palestine?

And please don't point at obscure bible quotes. There are a lot of othodox Jews claiming the that the current state of Israel has no foundation in the bible. What you need to do is take a bath, relax and start thinking outside of the little box full of pre-fabricated bible-study group propaganda. If you need help and want to challenge your own thinking, please have a look at this website.

Re:Are you really an idiot?

[superyooser]

It comes as no surprise to me that you are following Fox news very closely

That's awfully presumptuous of you. I don't even have cable TV. I listen to Israel National Radio. I also follow the Jerusalem Post and various other sources.

If you denounce UN resolutions and claim they have no credibility, what right do you think Israelis have to claim land in Palestine?

The Bible is the title deed. The U.N. merely served as a terrestrial instrument to establish the modern state.

There are a lot of othodox Jews claiming the that the current state of Israel has no foundation in the bible.

Yeah, and there are some "Christians" who hold the views of the Ku Klux Klan. Many Greek Orthodox "Christians" supported Saddam Hussein. There are crackpots in every group. That site says, "We see Zionism as a violation of the Creator's decree that we remain in Exile." This is 100% balderdash. God commands Jews to live on the land. It is promised to the children of Israel forever. These people are illiterate. Read Genesis.

Re:At least SOMEONE is testing Mandrake, finally!

[TrekCycling]

I'm on Fedora also. Same reasons. Didn't want to do SuSE and Mandrake is a mess right now. Thus this wasn't a troll, but a joke. :-)

read a book sometime

[Doc Ruby]

You can hide your ignorance behind your Anonymity, but your Cowardice leeches through. What don't you believe? The civilized approach of most of Israel's 50 year history, or the barbarity of the Arab tyrannies, especially their cynical abuse of the Palestinians? Join the civilized people who support an end to Arafat and Sharon's partnership in apocalypse, and suggest something constructive, rather than cowardly anonymous sniping that just brings everybody down.

complexity beneath the media surface is important

[Doc Ruby]

Israelis, Palestinians and the rest of us are threatened by insane warmongers who wage apocalyptic brinksmanship for worldly power, and sick dreams of glory in the afterlife which is breathing down their septuagenarian necks. Rabin's murderer was a "settler" from a sicko jewish sect in Brooklyn, breeding terrorists in a mirror image of Arafat's Al Aqsa Brigade. Sharon is responsible for most of the bulldozed houses referenced in your link (implicit in even their numbers). As well as the most bloody, counterproductive "counterattacks" in the half-century Arab-Israeli war in which the Palestinians are one theater. Anonymous Coward, as Arab states increase in power and organization, tilting global allies like France, Russia and China to counterbalance the increasingly unpredictable USA, Israel's security is increasingly threatened. The growth of the international arms market in countries with active campaigns against Israel, like Syria and Iran, shows the economic value of the threat to Israel's survival. And the propaganda value to Arab kings (and many other medieval Muslim governments) of Israel's destruction, distracting their people from tyranny at home, is ever more pressing, even as those kings gain nuclear bombs and Jeremiah high priests. To say nothing of Al Qaeda and their proximity to controlling Pakistan's nuclear missiles. Just visit Israel, or any of the other (antidemocratic) mideastern countries, and rethink whether Isreal is endangered. And the depth of the threat to all of us, as the destroyers move from strength to strength, sending us all to a fiery hell on Earth.

suicide

[Doc Ruby]

Where's the genocide, Anonymous Coward? There's a guerilla war inside Israel, with a truly demented Arab named Arafat directing his people to kill themselves one by one, taking out as many Jews (and sympathetic bystanders) as possible. Arafat has made a hard definition of "Palestinist" as genocidal terrorist, to the everlasting discredit of his inheritors. While Sharon's zealot sullying of Zionist merely overshadows a century of definition of "self-determination". Focus your venom on Arafat and Sharon, the criminals, rather than an entire people, lest you betray your own racism, and its likely genocidal lusts.

Lonely Anonymous Coward bigot

[Doc Ruby]

Reading this thread, it looks like at least most, if not all, of the sick posts targeting Jews in the name of a perverted "antizionism", are the work of a single childish fool. Who is coward enough to remain anonymous as they spill venom through their keyboard. It is interesting to note that all the posts attacking Jews and "zionists" are anonymous (and cowardly). And the few posts which are named all make the reasonable distinction between zionism (belief in Jewish self-determination/homeland) and the zealot militarism of Sharon's amok government. This would be a near-flamewar to take seriously if more posters showed their "faces" (usernames). Otherwise, you're just fanning the cold flames of paranoid propaganda, regardless of your point.