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A Truly UserFriendly Game Audio Engine?

Posted by simoniker on from the words-semi-random-in-order-random dept.

dallen writes "Do you wonder what Illiad of UserFriendly does when he's not coming up with comics? This article at GlobeAndMail.com reveals that his company, Condition30, is working on multiple videogame-related engines which create unpredictable but recognizable content. The company is working 'to polish its game-engine technology', but its public demo, a music creation engine, makes 'random' music that sounds much like music, not noise, potentially for games and other interactive products. Says their website: 'Our principal product, ZenStrings, is a music-generation engine that composes music and audio in real-time without taxing memory or processing power'."

46 comments

  1. what's next by ghettoreb · · Score: 1

    what's next? software that composes the game in real time with "unpredictable but recognizable content"??? [first post!]

    1. Re:what's next by oren · · Score: 1

      what's next? software that composes the game in real time with "unpredictable but recognizable content"?

      You mean like Nethack? Inevitably, someone will add something like their software to the game... Throw in some sound effects, and maybe specific tunes for special levels, and you get:

      MuseHack!

    2. Re:what's next by JFMulder · · Score: 1

      Well, games like Diablo are the closest we are to that at this point.

  2. I smell an idea by kurosawdust · · Score: 4, Funny

    Combine this with the software that can tell if a song is going to be a hit or not and you'll make billions selling to ClearChannel alone!

    1. Re:I smell an idea by RealityMogul · · Score: 1

      Of course you would only need to detect the 3 chords that define a hit song for the current year and then create a dozen songs that play those chords in different orders. And don't forget to throw in some lyrics about how your childhood sucked or how much of a bitch your ex was.

      If you got a dime every time they played your song, you'd be making $10 per day, per station. Think about it.

  3. dynamic music by Dreadlord · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I've listened to some of tracks generated by ZenStrings, and I can say that it's quite impressive, it may be the first step on the process of creating a game with truely dynamic music.

    Anyway, you can find some samples generated by the engine here.

    --
    The IT section color scheme sucks.
    1. Re:dynamic music by Chester+K · · Score: 1

      and I can say that it's quite impressive

      None of the music samples have any "feeling" though; there's not really anything in any of them that really stands out and gives the music any sort of character. They'd make good background music, but that's about it -- I doubt they'd be able to stand on their own as, say, a main theme.

      --

      NO CARRIER
    2. Re:dynamic music by cyb97 · · Score: 1

      As always.

      This isn't the first attempt at making a computer generate music. Bach, Mozart, etc. they all stuck to pretty rigorous rules when they composed music. Rigorous rules are usually perfect for computers. However what makes a piece spectacular is bending and pushing the rules to the limit, something that does lend it self very well to computers.

      So it's impossible for a computer to come up with a great piece of music. They just can't innovate, they just imitate...

  4. if it were TRULY user-friendly by AtariAmarok · · Score: 0

    If it were truly user-friendly, a sultry voice would come out of the speakers describing all the cheats/hacks available at certain points in the game.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  5. Some Musicians are not evil by Andy_R · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Rather than reinventing the wheel, why not just get a an actual musician to create real music for your game?

    Contrary to popular /. opion, there are plenty of RIAA-hating open-source-friendly musicans out there who would love to create soundtracks and/or sound effects for games.

    Try signing up for a mailing list where musicians hang out online (such as the music-bar list at ampfea.org) and ask around.

    --
    A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    1. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because that music gets repetetive and takes up a lot of space. Take a game like a modern Final Fantasy. Most people have 72hr or so games of that (not in a row of course, but still.) ~2hrs of music starts to get very repetitive. If the music was constantly changing ever so slightly, it would keep the game feeling fresh. Especially if you do what max payne (among others) did by having music get more intense during intense parts of the game (think about to enter a room with 5 people in it)

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
    2. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by Andy_R · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is exacly why you should be talking to a real musician! Creating variations on a theme to induce emotions, keeping a long piece of music sounding fresh with different arrangments, and so on are all things that musicians already know how to do.

      If your spec if for a 72 hour responsive soundtrack that doesn't take up a lot of space, working with a musician and a tracker style sample/note playback system with some mildly clever arpeggiators is going to be a very good way to do it.

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    3. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by Bagels · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but the better ones won't work for free; if the game goes commercial or shareware or whatever, they'll want a cut. This program, on the other hand, is quite willing to work for a bit of electricity and some spare processor cycles. Whether it can produce music equivalent to that of a good musician\composer is another matter entirely, but this does show that it can be done.

      --
      --- Bwah?
    4. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by m_chan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree that the slight changes may keep things fresh, but space for music is really not that big of a deal anymore. You can store dozens of hours of reasonable quality audio on a 700MB CD-ROM and none of it may be worth a damn, regardless of whether it is fresh.

      The parent to your post said, "hire a musician". I don't think the RIAA comment helped the argument, but the poster was onto something; there is an aspect in music composition that arpeggiating algorithms can appease and extend to some extent, but there is always something lacking that results from the rigidity of purely mathematical constructions. After listening to many of the sample tracks , I think they are on to something of a middle ground that may work out rather well. Here's why:

      I listened to all the available sample tracks. Some were quirky, some were rather interesting, but none of the demos developed a hook. When it comes right down to it, they all were ambient and lacking melodic recurrence to draw me into the piece (no offense intended to the composer). That hook will bring you back (thanks JP).

      But these were merely the demos. They are creating this software with the idea that it will end up in the hands of a (hopefully) talented melodic composer that will provide exactly what you may be looking for, (i.e. I think): reduction of time/space/money/whathaveyou in the composition process, while creating an original theme that is still humanistic in its structure and delivery, resulting in a memorable and likeable melody that holds your attention over the long haul.

      Or the are just using sax and violins to sell games?

    5. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "When it comes right down to it, they all were ambient and lacking melodic recurrence to draw me into the piece"

      Thats generally what most video games are going for. Of course we all know the super mario bros theme by heart, but for a shooter game the ambience is there to fill the silence (except when needed for suspence), without being so distracting you can't get in the game. Imagine trying to shoot a nazi while some annoying teen is singing. Now kill that same nazi while you have a faint ambient song going in the background. Of course there are exceptions (see any grand theft auto-like game or a game like tony hawk). Really depends on the game I suppose.

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
    6. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      72 hours of music is going to take far, far more space than 2 hours of music, and is why we only have 2 hours of music. That's the point of this whole thing. I understand you're point though - you're concerned that musicians are missing out on this. Well, I doubt it.

    7. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by putamare · · Score: 0

      I think you're missing the point entirely. It isn't about filling x number of hours with musical content for a certain price for the same reason that there are plenty of games where playing custom soundtracks doesn't work. The idea is to have the music match the playing experience, which means there is going to have to be some sort of "conducting" by the game itself. Ideally you'd need a different timing and sequence for each player, which really isn't a compositional form most musicians are familiar with. From what I've read, SSX3 is supposed to do this well, which goes to show that it can be done, but it requires a lot more effort that just finding a musician that will work cheap.

    8. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by Andy_R · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's where you are wrong. There are LOADS of really amazing hobby musicians out there who would really like the opportunity to get their music into a game for no fee at all.

      The problem is that none of the have a high enough profile for you to hear about them, so you need to go and look for them - which is the point I was trying to make in my original post. Raising their profile to ther point where they get noticed is the hardest part for a musician who wants to give away their music, so being associated witha good game would be a wonderful opportunity for them.

      BTW, algoryhtmic composition is not a new concept, you can trace the idea right back to Mozart's musical dice game from 1787, this is just the first one that I have heard about that has been marketed to the games industry. I guess the fact that so many people are assuming this is a new thing reinforces my point that there is not enough crossover between the two fields?

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    9. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by natmsincome.com · · Score: 1

      The big deal about automated music is that it can be random but set the mood. If you have the same music and repeat it again and again it gets repedative.

      The random music isn't really good as just background music (you may as well get someone to write you music it will be MUCH better) but for dynamic music.

      Here's a first person death match example:
      *You have 3 people all coming together - action music.
      *Walking nowhere ne anyone else - boring music.
      *Only a few kills till someone wins - faster music.

      Movies are a great example and there aresome single player games that do this will because they a scripted. Multiplayer games can't have script music so getting a dynamic music engine is a great product.

    10. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by superultra · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I listened to the samples of ZenStrings, and it sounds as repetetive as anything in Final Fantasy. Why? Because without the set patterns of composed music, one measure of randomized music basically sounds the same as the next because there were no patterns with which to "landmark" the music with. After 10 minutes of random music, it'll all start to sound the same as well, and while you may not have heard the same thing, without landmark patterns you'll swear you had. Where's the use in that?

      There's an easier way to "de-repeatize" music, and that's to create great music. I don't remember the music in Halo being particularly repetitive and I've certainly played that for well over 72 hours. Same for KOTOR.

      I don't think taking up space is an issue. The virtual radio stations of GTA:VC and Project Gotham Racing 2 just throw so much music at you (and good music too!) that I've really yet to feel like I've heard the same song too much, and since the music is pretty great, I actually turn it up when I hear a favorite.

      I think the third solution was first exhibited by LucasArts in X-Wing and its ilk; the idea of set themes but changing dynamically.

      I think there are far more effective solutions than ZenStrings. That's not to say that ZenStrings isn't an anchievement, but throw that stuff in a game and it'll hurt the general atmosphere of most games because the music is not "intentful."

    11. Re:Some Musicians are not evil by damiam · · Score: 1

      Space isn't the issue. One could easily fit 72 hours of MIDI/MOD/etc. audio on a CD or DVD. The problem is finding an paying an artist willing to undertake such an enormous task.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
  6. It's a nice idea but... by JFMulder · · Score: 1

    This could be nice in some circonstances, but a lot of people like something they can sing to or hum, and random music is pretty hard to hum when you think about it. How can you compose a theme randomly? I don't see how this could be put to heavy use in a game.

    1. Re:It's a nice idea but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... circonstances ...

      Is that like measuring the circonference of a circle?

  7. Seems familiar by presearch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The very odd cult game tranquility has used this concept for a long time, and also does the "auto generation" trick with it's game geometry as well.

    ZenStrings almost seems...inspired.. by tranquility's soundtracks. Especially the example/sample "Tranquilitatus".

    1. Re:Seems familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yup I was going to post the same thing. The tranquility music engine is given a theme, and then it creates endless variations. It's actually pretty cool since it's generating "new age" type music which a) is easy to autogenerate (sorry new age fans), and b) suits tranquility perfectly.

      If you're reading this and haven't tried tranquility, click the link in the parent post and give it a shot.. it really is different and you'll either be totally sucked in for life, or you won't get it and will be bored.

    2. Re:Seems familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "sorry new age fans"

      I thought this was part of the point of New Age music... it's supposed to emulate natural ambient noise in a musical form, yes? The natural material is random.

    3. Re:Seems familiar by superultra · · Score: 1

      You know, this is going to reveal my innate geekiness, but if I hadn't just seen this episode of TNG on SpikeTV the other day I wouldn't have remembered. Does tranquility remind anyone else of the TNG episode "The Game"?

  8. Elite by wackybrit · · Score: 3, Informative

    The space-sim 'Elite' did this in the mid 80's.

    They didn't just do it for the novelty, however.. they had to have the computer generate stuff randomly, as they had no memory to store stuff permanently!

    There's a cute article about how they developed it, and how the random engine created some pretty funny outcomes, including planet 'Arse'.

    --
    mogorific carpentry experiments
  9. Algorithmic music by Omniscient+Ferret · · Score: 3, Informative

    The public demo is samples, not a runnable demo. According to the article, they're seeking patents. I think I'd rather try to get Boodler running, or Looching, which preceded that. (Or Tranquility, which someone else mentioned.)

    1. Re: Algorithmic music by Omniscient+Ferret · · Score: 1

      I hate replying to myself, but I fixed the problems. One was the lack of python.h, which was hidden because of a lot of other error messages; the other is that leash.py should go into the boodler directory.

  10. Sounds familiar by Black+Hitler · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh wait, this is basically Sid Meier's CPU Bach, circa 1993. And I seem to recall the crappy editing software that came with my Dazzler DV capture card had something like this as well. At least he's still pushing the envelope of unfunny comics.

  11. They could use this... by suyashs · · Score: 1

    in the next Lufia game! Then it would have random dungeons and random music!

    --
    http://chrono.posterous.com/
    1. Re:They could use this... by !3ren · · Score: 1

      ..to generate a laugh track for UserFriendly so you know when it's supposed to be funny!
      They seem to be using a copy to generate the comics... slight variations on a staid and mechanical premise and you think it is new content.

  12. They say it's music... by Guspaz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But it sounds pretty random to me. Yes, it's more coherant than pure random notes, but it has a long way to go.

  13. While it's probably quite a technical achievement by gasaraki · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't really like to play a game like that. The music does sound like music, but it doesn't sound like good music, lacking the movements and progression that actually make songs good. Even as background music I think it'd be ultimately unfulfilling. I'd rather hear the same old Sephiroth song every time I meet him then a randomly generated "evil tune". Honestly it's hard to get tired of good music if it's not overused, but even if you do get tired of a certain song, I'd still rather listen to an overused "overworld theme" or whatever than ZenStrings.

  14. Website Hell by idiotfromia · · Score: 1
    Anyone. ZenStrings provides inexpensive music than can be used to add depth to a website, intrigue to a film, or atmosphere to a video game.

    I can see an interest for video games, bu websites? Music on a webpage does not add depth, but only gives horrible flashbacks to the days of animated GIF and <blink> tag hell.

    1. Re:Website Hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Marquees and tickers ROXOR!

  15. I tried to do this a couple times by dtfinch · · Score: 1

    Never got it to sound very good though. Occasionally I got a few second of nice music, but otherwise it played as expected.

    I'm curious how much setup time is needed to get it to produce music like you hear in their samples, how many runs it took them to get their samples, etc.

    Apparently DirectX already supports all of this, and other past products have used this idea, so this is nothing new.

    1. Re:I tried to do this a couple times by wackybrit · · Score: 1

      About five seconds set up time, judging by the quality. Really.. it's shocking. I hope they develop on this. Even that Microsoft Music Maker thing that could make personalised music back in the 90's was better :-(

      --
      mogorific carpentry experiments
  16. Headspace by girth · · Score: 2, Informative

    Isn't this what the original Beatnik engine Thomas Dolby designed was supposed to do? I remember Dolby giving a lecture at a Music and Multimedia event in SF (around 1996). This was back in the CD-ROM days. Headspace would later dissolve and Beatnik looks to be more focused on phone ringtones.

  17. musik by jeffehobbs · · Score: 1


    Algorithmic music? Try this kind of thing yourself. (Mac OS X).

    ~jeff

  18. Opensource will beat them to it. by speaker4thedead · · Score: 2, Funny

    What a coincidence! I just started on my own open source project to do this.

    Here's the source:

    #!/bin/bash
    cat /dev/random > /dev/sound/dsp

    Any improvements and bugfixes welcome.

    --
    "My religion is to live --and die-- without regret." -- Milarepa
  19. I prefer a tune I can hum by SamSim · · Score: 1

    Ambient music sounds like a good idea, at least in the lengthy dungeon-wanderings or levelling-up or tedious bits of the many and various games which would make use of this technology - Final Fantasy, Zelda, Deus Ex perhaps, that ilk. However, I'd also like to have at least some memorable snatches of music to take away from the game - a title theme, the boss confrontations, and I've heard good things about Aeris' death theme in FFVII I think it is. A lengthy game of Tetris would be wonderful with this technology, but where would Tetris be without the Tetris theme? There is still a place for professionally composed music in games.

    --
    qntm.org
  20. heard this but better on my amiga a long time ago. by metalmario · · Score: 0

    if i just could remember the name of the tool, which generated acid jazz and other bizarre, but very funky and addictive songs... its output was much better than that of zenstrings. but i love the idea - unlimited music for the masses!

  21. Not for games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are many interactive music systems around and this seems no better than any other. It sounds like the usual rand() filtered through a musical key. The Bars&Pipes sequencer on the Amiga allowed you to do this around 13 years ago! Microsoft's DirectMusic is by far the most comprehensive interactive music system available (and free to download as part of the DirectX SDK), but is so complex that it has never received widespread use. A stunning product though. Check out the music on the game No-One Lives Forever for a good example of its capabilities.

    The thing is, all of these systems only generate note data. So for anything to sound any good, you've got to have capabilities available that don't exist in consoles (or PCs unless you use tons of CPU time) yet. You need a huge amount of RAM for samples, pro-quality reverb, filters, DSP effects and so on. Basically the capabilities of every pro-audio synth.

    Unless you are using a very simplistic style of music, it will never sound anywhere near as good as a "proper" recording. Sampled loops give the best quality. Even if you had tons of RAM for samples, you will never get synthesized guitars to sound any good and sample-based orchestras are nowhere near as good as the real thing. Streaming blocks of music is the best way to get the best quality. Halo is a good example of very good loop-based interactive music.

    For the ultimate in interactive music, we need a large amount of CPU and RAM dedicated to audio and a real-time dynamic note generation synced with a streaming loop-based system.

    But let us not forget that the most important ingredient is the skill of the person that implements the system. The article makes it sound like you just include it in the game and works like magic. No no no. Those dynamic parameters have to be defined along with their actions. It takes a lot of skill to get it right, far more than any other musical media, and is very easy to get it wrong.

    As an example, I know that in Halo, if you stand around and do nothing for a while, the music fades out until the action starts up again. A very simple idea, yet it makes a huge difference in making the music less annoying, and almost every other game misses these small details. It's easy to decide "when the player is within 50m of the baddy, switch the music to a minor key", but what if the player keeps moving in and out of the 50m zone? The music will sound ridiculous! There are hundreds, if not thousands of these decision that have to be made when implementing an interactive music system into a game, and I don't see how this system can alleviate the problem at all.