Currency Detection Discovered in More Products

it's a test... by dirtyboot · 2004-01-20 07:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's actually just a test for the true roll-out, which will prevent the reproduction and distribution of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Re:it's a test... by Metallic+Matty · 2004-01-20 07:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's actually just a test for the true roll-out, which will prevent the reproduction and distribution of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

It is not, however, blocking the patirot act reproductions at this time.
Re:it's a test... by cubicledrone · 2004-01-20 07:22 · Score: 2, Funny

Would anyone recognize them?

--
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Re:it's a test... by Jucius+Maximus · 2004-01-20 07:28 · Score: 5, Insightful

I don't know if this is too new. One guy living in England told some me years ago that you can't photocopy currency on photocopiers. They just come out black.

In all honesty, I think that something like this is a bad idea because it relieves governments of the responsibility of making currency that is hard to counterfeit. Sooner or later, someone hardcore (probably a crime ring) with their own equipment will come along and duplicate poorly designed currency, making a whole bunch of fake currency that is undetectable.

This is the same as what's going on with the DMCA. People are afraid to reveal vulnerabilities they have found in software so the things go unpatched, and then someone with a very evil agenda will come along exploit the problems that were not fixed due to silly restrictions.

The 'release now, patch later' doctrine is widely used in software ... but I would not want to see it applied in something like currency.
Re:it's a test... by bigman2003 · 2004-01-20 07:38 · Score: 4, Interesting

This has been going on for a long time. In fact, I had a Kodak color copier back in 1995 that did the same thing.

--
No reason to lie.
Re:it's a test... by Winkhorst · 2004-01-20 07:40 · Score: 5, Interesting

As a former photoengraver and member of the IPEU, now the GCIU, I can assure you that at one time it was illegal to make ANY kind of reproduction of American currency. The rules have now been relaxed a bit, but I personally would never do it. It's just too difficult to prove you weren't trying to counterfeit. My father worked with a fellow who claimed he was just "seeing if he could do it" after someone found a plate he left sitting in the water tank in the etching room overnight. He ended up with a long vacation to Leavenworth, Kansas. This is not a joke, and the Feds have no sense of humor about it at all.

--
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
Re:it's a test... by Smidge204 · 2004-01-20 07:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think that the inability to photocopy the currency is due to how the note was made (special inks) and not so much a mechanism in the copier itself.

I don't think the government is looking to relevie themselves of the responsibility, just taking it to the next logical (?) step... their concern is to make the money hard to duplicate. This is just another mecanism to do that.

Doesn't mean I like it, though.
=Smidge=
Re:it's a test... by Short+Circuit · 2004-01-20 07:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

I agree that it's a bad idea, but I disagree why. I don't like the idea of software I pay for not doing what I instruct it to do.

From a government (and a practical) standpoint, however, it's a good idea. After all, when solving any problem, two prongs are better than one.

--
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Re:it's a test... by gnu-generation-one · 2004-01-20 07:57 · Score: 2, Funny

"One guy living in England told some me years ago that you can't photocopy currency on photocopiers. They just come out black."

I hear you can buy colour copiers in England now...
Re:it's a test... by Safety+Cap · 2004-01-20 08:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

~ you can't photocopy currency on photocopiers. They just come out black.
That is an urban legend.
My first job while in High School was working at a print shop. After hours, the printer (this 1,000 year old man who knew...everything about printing) would show me how to do all kinds of things. One day we made red one-dollar bills (so that if somehow we got caught, we'd only get 5 years instead of 20 :)) to see if we could do it. What we came up with was very close, and considering that we used last-century's technology, very impressive. After the experiment was over, we burned the results.
If you want to get going with a major operation, you'd need plates (a home printer/professional printer can't get the fine dots that you get from plates) and a good supply of the special rag bond they use. The most important thing, and the hardest to reproduce, is the seal where they imprint two colors (green and black) in the same spot. Now with the watermark and embedded strip, you'd need to treat the paper to get those features before you printed the image.
EVEN EASIER: (I've seen this happen several times) Take a twenty and a ten. Rip the short edges off (the part that has the denomination numbers) and swap. Now your bill with 70% ten and 30% twenty is a twenty. Take the rest of the twenty to the bank to get a new one (as long as it is 51%+, they'll do it), and use the franken-bill at a shop for $20 worth of goods!

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Yeah, right.
Re:it's a test... by ePhil_One · 2004-01-20 08:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

But its new to the Slashdot home page, which makes it current and exciting news. Besides, pointing out that Canon refered to this feature in their marketing materials for their color photocopiers 8 years ago makes it difficult to pin on the Patriot act.
The reality is they are trying to remove the temptation from the casual counterfiter, cranking out a few cheezy twenties on the office copier to stretch their paycheck a few more beers. Most of these dumbasses are too stupid to realize they're commiting a serious fedral crime, and that often they are just waiting for you to cross that magical barrier that makes it a serious crime.
Sorta like the clerks skimming twenties from the drawer thinking they are getting away with it when management is waiting for the $$ amount to hit the "felony" level, recording everything on videotape.

--
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
Re:it's a test... by bshort404 · 2004-01-20 08:47 · Score: 2, Funny

You're either a troll or an idiot.

The 51% has to be from the same bill. You can't mix and match. i.e. you couldn't take 51 bills, shave a 1% slice off the edge and then spend the 51 bills while turning in the 51 shavings for a brand new dollar.

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-B
Re:it's a test... by LarryX · 2004-01-20 09:01 · Score: 2, Informative

51% is right. The gov employes people to carefully go through and count money from accidents (fire exposed, roted, etc.) Then refunds the money as long as 51% is there.
Re:it's a test... by chill · 2004-01-20 09:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

Bzzzt! Wrong. The bank doesn't want 51% of the bill, they want both serial numbers. Your 51% must show both serial numbers or they should deny your request for a replacement.

--
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Re:it's a test... by camusflage · 2004-01-20 09:11 · Score: 2, Funny

It is not, however, blocking the patirot act reproductions at this time.

As I understand, this code is actually actively encouraging the reproduction of the PATRIOT Act by allowing reproductions with updated version numbers to be copied at will.

--
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
Re:it's a test... by chill · 2004-01-20 09:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

I had this discussion over Christmas. A friend of mine's wife has been a bank teller for several years. They get lots of training on this sort of thing.

They're not supposed to take bills like the ones you describe -- with the ends ripped off. That scam is decades old. Of course, some most certainly do, but they aren't supposed to. There are a few other things that tip them off, too. I can't remember a lot of them now, but if they're busy a lot of it just slides by.

--
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Re:it's a test... by cfuse · 2004-01-20 09:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

... and a good supply of the special rag bond they use ...
Not in Australia. Why? I'm glad you asked: It's because our money is made from plastic.
Re:it's a test... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-20 11:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

:: ~ you can't photocopy currency on photocopiers. They just come out black.

: ~ That is an urban legend.

Some currencies simply do not photocopy. Not because of what the photocopier manufacturer has put in to the copier machine but because of the limitations of the technology.

Do you ever remember news readers wearing stripey shirts or ties and they'd flicker on the screen because of the interlace effect. Something similar with photocopiers happens - the detail is too fine for the scanners to pick up and they get it messed up.

About 15 years ago I did a project at school on the security features of Bank of Scotland notes and it was quite amazing. Under an ultra-violet light a hidden thistle (the national flower of Scotland) would illuminate. The metal strip through the note weaved between the front and back. The pattern of the weave was morse code for B.O.S. The picture was made up of hundreds of lines swirling like the contour lines on a map (if you take a powerful magnifying glass you'll see that the lines are not solid but made up of the words "Bank Of Scotland" in a minute font.

The original posters comments about Bank of England notes photocopying black in a photocopier may be correct. I vaguely remember something about a coating they put on notes in England that absorbs certain frequencies of light. Under a UV lamp the note goes very dark whereas if you take normal paper it goes very bright because of the bleach they put in the paper.

So, although I've never tried it I would suspect that it is not possible to photocopy a BofE note.
Re:it's a test... by Alan+Cox · 2004-01-20 11:47 · Score: 3, Funny

The bank and currency people know its only one small item in the arsenal, but until they get rfid in money with digital authentication and biometrics in passports it raises the barriers when its in a printer.

In software its plain dangerous. If you are going to rob a bank remember to wear $20 notes blown up in various sizes all over your shirt, and be happy law enforcement can't open the footage 8)
Re:it's a test... by rpresser · 2004-01-20 17:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

Reason 1 is silly. Reason 2, 3, and 4 make sense but only to prove the utility of gold, not its value. And reason five ...

5. Main reason: it's reasonably rare and limited.

So is dinosaur shit.

Look, I'm not trying to seriously say that gold is of no worth in the real world. I'm just trying to say that it is worth something because people have decided it's worth something. I'm trying to draw a distinction between worth (aka value) and utility (aka usefulness). (The aka equivalences are my own, and probably imprecise or inaccurate if you ask an economist.)

You can't print more gold, it's a scarce and limited resource. But if you can find more gold, dig it up or something, the "value" of the original gold remains the same, and as you have more gold, you are "worth" more.

Nitrates used to be extremely, extremely valuable. Own a guano island and you had it made. The value was there because guano islands were rare. But fertilizers are useful, not valuable. The value of guano dropped quite a bit when artificial fertilizers were developed. The utility remains; the value has dropped.

If someone had a reliable method to produce gold in enormous quantity (a transmuter, or mining the asteroids, or filtering seawater ...) gold's value would disappear. Its utility would not.

Petroleum was nearly worthless before the industrial revolution. Its value changed because its utility changed. The value was not inherent in the material the whole time; it changed because people decided it was worth more.

I know I'm beginning to wade quite out of my depth here, since I have no real understanding of modern economics. But I still think that value is what people are willing to say it is.

note design changes by geoff+lane · 2004-01-20 07:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

what happens when the note design changes?

Re:note design changes by pla · 2004-01-20 07:23 · Score: 5, Informative

what happens when the note design changes?

As many people have pointed out, in every Slashdot FP on this topic, the detection algorithm works by finding a pattern of five small circles in a particular configuration (which looks vaguely like the Cingular logo, without the head-dot).

This same pattern occurs on US, Canadian, EU, and presumeably many other forms of world currency, so the same algorithm can detect all of them, without modification (and more usefully, without a huge library of bill designs that needs constant updating as various countries change the pictures on their money).

To make a new bill design fit the detection algorithm, the government needs only include that pattern of five circles somewhere in the design.

I included a link to a PDF of the pattern in a Slashdot post from a few days ago, if you want to see it.
Re:note design changes by Short+Circuit · 2004-01-20 07:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

Just because there's already a law making something illegal doesn't mean that additional steps can't be taken to make enforcement easier.

The problem is when these additional steps clash against civil liberties and fair/non-illegal use. (That is to say, there's almost always something wrong with the scheme.)

--
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Re:note design changes by localhost00 · 2004-01-20 08:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

There are ALREADY laws making counterfeit a crime. There are already laws making the use of counterfeit currency a crime.
True criminals don't give a shit if Action X is illegal. They just do it.

--
Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
Re:note design changes by Sir+Holo · 2004-01-20 08:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

five small circles in a particular configuration

But, there must be more. Photoshop CS won't open a scan of the front of a new US $20, either. I can't find the pattern of circles there anywhere.
Re:note design changes by budgenator · 2004-01-20 10:48 · Score: 2, Informative

The website is owned by the european central bank and has linked listing rules of use for currency images for numerous countries.

--
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds

Nothing new by Uber+Banker · 2004-01-20 07:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

What is also interesting is that these products block fair uses of currency images which do not break the law.

Just like most machines, they will minimise the chance of taking a fake rather than maximising not refecting a non-fake. They probably have some kind of level of statistical signigicance of 'error' they are happy with. New tech is not fool-proof tech.

We can use this ourselves by h4rm0ny · 2004-01-20 07:15 · Score: 4, Funny

What I really want to be able to do is to incorporate this signature into my own images. It could be used to provide a modicum of image protection from the technophobes, or else to annoy people. I found a few details on how it works here. I particularly like a comment from one guy about how it blocks scanning of $20 bills...

"You can still scan a $10 bill twice."

:D

--

Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.

Re:We can use this ourselves by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-20 07:23 · Score: 5, Interesting

Actually, I've thought about this. I don't have complete information about the Eurion pattern, but if it's scalable to larger sizes, it could be interesting.

I was thinking of T-shirts with this design on them so that photographs of you (think driver's license, passport) can't be photocopied.

A little rubber stamp with this pattern on it so that you can copy-proof any document you want (do you want the IRS photocopying your 1040? Nah!)

Anyway, not terribly handy I admit, but a great way to wrench up the works.
Re:We can use this ourselves by torpor · 2004-01-20 07:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

Its a good point. I'd really like to know how to create an image which cannot be opened in Photoshop, legally. This could be a *significant* means of civil disobedience over this issue.

Hell, give me a 'no-open' watermark, and I'll go ahead and add it to -every- image I have write access to ...

--
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Re:We can use this ourselves by wideBlueSkies · 2004-01-20 07:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

>> little rubber stamp with this pattern on it so that you can copy-proof any document you want (do you want the IRS photocopying your 1040? Nah!)

Yeah, but you can bet that the IRS, Police, FBI, Military, and every other government agency will have copiers and scanners that don't look for the symbol.

wbs.

--
Huh?
Re:We can use this ourselves by cgenman · 2004-01-20 07:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

do you want the IRS photocopying your 1040? Nah

My interactions with the IRS lead me to believe that they would simply throw it out and claim that you never sent it in, all the while cashing your check and filing a claim against you.

Never underestimate the power of laziness.

--
The ______ Agenda
Re:We can use this ourselves by dogdaze · 2004-01-20 08:13 · Score: 4, Funny

Or put the pattern on your car license plate and stop those pesky red light cameras from printing images.
Re:We can use this ourselves by anticypher · 2004-01-20 08:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

At last year's CeBIT trade show there was a company selling paper they claimed could not be photocopied. It was about 50euros for a box of 25 sheets, or I'd have bought some (I'm going again this year, so if I see that booth again I'm buying a box). The pages appeared to be covered with pale yellow circles that would trigger the anti-currency algorithms in photocopiers. There was also some moire-pattern thin blue lines around the corners, very thin but probably enough to be picked up by the optics.

Supposedly the exact spacing and pattern of circles is trademarked and copyrighted. But I could see making it a watermark pattern for my important documents, but now I'll have to make sure I use a printer which doesn't have anti-currency technology. As a matter of fact, that would make a good test document to screw with sales droid's heads. Now I'll have to DL a pirate copy of photoshop CS so I can test the pattern and spacing :-)

An even cooler application would be a rubber stamp with a pad of pale yellow ink that fluoresces. Stamp it all over documents you don't want government departments to easily photocopy. The circles would be almost invisible to the naked eye, the poor civil service drones would probably give up the case after a few attempts keep breaking their machines.

the AC
There goes my evening...

--
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Re:We can use this ourselves by GMFTatsujin · 2004-01-20 11:09 · Score: 2, Funny

Supposedly the exact spacing and pattern of circles is trademarked and copyrighted.
As in they control who can make a copy of the pattern?

Talk about self-referencial. They got a copyright on an uncopiable design. I'm laughing my ass off.

Just use an old version.. by junkymailbox · 2004-01-20 07:16 · Score: 2, Funny

dont support the new version and be done with it ..

Spyware? Wrong term I think. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-20 07:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

Is this software/hardware reporting back to someone that you're trying to duplicate currency? I doubt it, so it's likely not spyware. The incentive they have is simply to help the government fight counterfeit currency. Do you want your goods to be purchased with fake money? I don't.

All ready slow! by nubbie · 2004-01-20 07:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

To: BugTraq
Subject: HP printers and currency anti-copying measures
Date: Jan 17 2004 5:10PM
Author: Richard M. Smith
Message-ID:

Hi,

Last week, the Associated Press reported that Adobe has incorporated
anti-copying technology in their Photoshop CS software which prevents users
from opening image files of U.S. and European currency. Here's the article:

Adobe admits to currency blocker
http://tinyurl.com/2xnno

(http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,14 13 ,87~11271~1882929,00.html)

I did some investigating on my own computer and discovered that HP has also
been shipping currency anti-copying software in their printer drives since
at least the summer of 2002. I have an HP 130 photo printer and found the
string "http://www.rulesforuse.org" embedded in the driver.

According to a few newsgroup messages posted in 2002 and 2003, folks are
seeing this URL printed out when they attempt to print images of certain
types of bills. An HP printer with this anti-copying technology only prints
out an inch of a currency image before aborting the print job.

Here is a list of HP printers which appear to have this anti-copy technology
embedded in their Windows printer drivers:

HP 130
HP 230
HP 7150
HP 7345
HP 7350
HP 7550

I suspect the list of affected HP printers is much longer.

I located these printer drivers simply by searching all files in my Windows
and Program Files directories for the string "rulesforuse". If other folks
run this same experiment, please let me know of other programs which appear
to contain currency anti-copy technology.

There are some unanswered questions raised by this quiet effort by U.S. and
European governments to turn home computers into anti-counterfeiting "cops":

1. Besides graphic programs and printer drivers, what
other kinds of software is this currency anti-copy
technology being embedded in?

2. Are companies being required to include currency
anti-copying technology in their products? If not,
what incentives are being offered to companies to
include the technology on a voluntary basis?

3. Will future versions of this technology, "phone home"
to the rulesforuse.org Web site with details about
a violation of the currency copying rules? It would
be very easy to include an email address, name of the
image file, software version number, etc. embedded in
a URL to the rulesforuse.org when a violation has been
detected.

Richard M. Smith
http://www.ComputerBytesMan.com

--
'Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes, aaarrrrrrrr!' -- Minsc

Re:All ready slow! by Phillup · 2004-01-20 08:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

How can I justify to management that I bought a printer that won't print what I told it to print?

As far as I'm concerned, the product is defective.

Looks like it is time to remove HP from my printer supplier list...

Any others?

--

--Phillip

Can you say BIRTH TAX
Re:All ready slow! by pHDNgell · 2004-01-20 08:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

Do you work for the mob?

The printers don't refuse to print money, they refuse to print what they think might be money.

Also, keep in mind, it's legal to produce one-sided color images of US currency as long as it's big or small enough.

--
-- The world is watching America, and America is watching TV.
Re:All ready slow! by Total_Wimp · 2004-01-20 08:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

That's what makes using DRM (which this is, basically) vs. using open source such a battle. You can't simultaneously have modifiable source code and un-modifiable DRM.

Possibility 1: Because open source flourishes, DRM will be marginalized.

Possibility 2: Because DRM flourishes, open source will be marginalized.

Possibility 3: There is no possibility 3. One or the other is going to be slowly die down to irrelevance. Right now open source actually seems to be winning. I hope it stays that way.

TW
Re:All ready slow! by Phillup · 2004-01-20 08:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

Do you work for the mob?

No... much worse.

;-)

I'm one of those people that expects machines to do what they are told to do... *exactly* what they are told to do.

More importantly, I expect my machines to do exactly what I tell them to do.

Any machine that doesn't, I consider defective.

Might have something to do with why I don't do Windows too...(unless I'm paid for it)

--

--Phillip

Can you say BIRTH TAX

What incentive?!?!? by koreth · 2004-01-20 07:16 · Score: 5, Funny

Well, first of all, the government has a compelling...

Hey, look! Over there! A terrorist!

What were you asking me again, you traitor?

Not a legal expert... by inode_buddha · 2004-01-20 07:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

but could printer and scanner mfgrs unwittingly "aid and abett" counterfeiters? Therefore becoming liable? Or is there some "big brother" pressure being applied.

--
C|N>K

As usual, easily defeatable by elan · 2004-01-20 07:17 · Score: 5, Informative

Search on the usual suspect newsgroups and you'll find a "patch" that can easily be applied to Photoshop CS to turn the currency detection off.

Re:As usual, easily defeatable by Endive4Ever · 2004-01-20 07:32 · Score: 5, Interesting

Yes, but you fail to understand the purpose of this anti-copying feature. It isn't to make it impossible for determined criminals to copy currency, it's to make it difficult enough that only determined criminals will try.

The court system would be clogged with newbs and 'regular folk' who copied a few $20 and/or their 10 year old son did it.

By implementing a layer of 'prohibition' like this they filter those folks out, which means there will be more resources available to hammer hard on the people who need the hammering (the people conterfeiting on a large scale). Which is a good thing, unless you're some sort of fringe character who thinks counterfeiting is kewl.

--
---
Re:As usual, easily defeatable by Peaker · 2004-01-20 07:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

Putting restrictions in software is never appropriate.

Not only because it cannot really work correctly, but because freedom is more important than such anti-crime measures, especially when they're so futile.
Re:As usual, easily defeatable by Nucleon500 · 2004-01-20 08:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

Furthermore, once software starts including restrictions, especially as a result of government influence, then any software that doesn't or can't include the restrictions will look like counterfeiter's tools. This means whichever system is most closed will be favored.
For example, Microsoft's future Palladium-enabled PictureIt could be virtually hack-proof compared to Photoshop, which is distributed in hacker-friendly binary form. Microsoft could then say, "Only counterfeiters use software that can be so easily hacked, when a plusuncrime solution exists."

--
Litigious bastards

Bushwa. by SirFozzie · 2004-01-20 07:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

If they didn't DRM it, they could be found liable whn a counterfitter uses their programs to counterfit money.

Should there be an exemption for folks who have legitimate use? Sure. But it should be very limited. Just like in the old days, very few people had access to the template plates money was issued from, the ability to restrict people that would make money that would fool even a cursory glance is a good thing, not a bad thing

--
People Talking in Movie shows.. people smoking in bed.. people voting republican.. GIVE THEM A BOOT TO THE HEAD!

Re:Bushwa. by Xzzy · 2004-01-20 07:30 · Score: 2, Flamebait

> Should there be an exemption for folks who have legitimate use? Sure.

Screw that, there should be an exemption for the folks who made the software. I'm not a fan of big government but if this currency detection really is just a CYA policy then perhaps a law protecting software houses from prosecution is in order. Provided said company is not "supporting" the crime in question of course (aka Napster).

We don't take gun companies to court do we? Automobile makers don't get fined when a drunk driver kills someone do they? Why should software companies be awarded the rare worry of being slapped for what their customers do?

Preemptive Obedience by Rhubarb+Crumble · 2004-01-20 07:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

The Germans have a phrase for this sort of thing - "Preemptive Obedience". Question is, who are they obeying, and why? Colour photocopiers have been around for ages and photocopies of banknotes haven't been a huge problem so far. So what's new?

Maybe this is another example of the kind of initiative that bureaucrats dream up all the time and usual get binned immediately, but are nowadays somehow seeing the light of day due to some "homeland security" paranoia. Like telling airline customers not to queue for the toilets in planes or whatever.

Re:Preemptive Obedience by vijayiyer · 2004-01-20 08:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

The difference between the copier and Photoshop is that the copier is an output device. As soon as the copier outputs a picture of currency near actual size, the law has been broken. Photoshop, however, cannot be used in and of itself to commit a crime and is thus further up the chain (and further along the slippery slope of crime-preemption).
Re:Preemptive Obedience by Zork+the+Almighty · 2004-01-20 16:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

Wow, I didn't expect such a good response. For the subway fences, certainly we are less free, but I'd like to point out what I feel are the most important distinctions. The fences protect people from physical harm, Photoshop controls do not. The fences also protect public property from trespass, whereas Photoshop controls restrict what people can do with their own property, in their own home.

It's like a car that won't move unless you're wearing a seatbelt, or a photocopier that you bought that won't copy money. Let me say I that agree with photocopiers having counterfeit-prevention circuitry - I just think the owners ought to be able to switch it off. Afterall, wasn't the point to stop some dipshit from doing this at Kinkos ? You're not going to stop any real criminals. If they have $5000 to buy a high end colour copier, or if they have the resources to steal one, they aren't going to be deterred anyway.

--

In Soviet America the banks rob you!

Currency Watermarking.. by molo · 2004-01-20 07:19 · Score: 5, Informative

It has been public information for a long time that there have been currency detection in digital color copiers. When I worked at Xerox this was publicly acknowledged (~4 years ago).

The currency detection was used to imprint a watermark into the reproduction image. That watermark identified the copier model and serial number that made the photocopy. The result was that the secret service could track down photocopied currency to the exact machine it came from. This supposedly worked for US bills, but I don't know if it recognized other foreign bills.

All thats changed now is that some devices stop printing the currency and instead print out some informational junk in its place. HP apparently does this in its Windows drivers, while Xerox did its watermarking in firmware on the actual device.

-molo

--
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.

Is it? by torpor · 2004-01-20 07:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

Is this a precursor to DRM in scanners, CD drives, and output devices?

I would say definitely yes.

Currency control is 'digital rights managment' on not just a government level, but also at The World Bank level, as well. Do not underestimate how significant this is!!

That this is now happening on a broad, industrial basis, means that it would've had to have been implemented at least 6 months to a year ago, as an initiative, and I think thats fairly concurrent with all the DRM/DMCA shenanigans which have been going through the American system since King Bush, El Fascisti, started signing parchment.

There can no longer be any doubt about the new order of the world. If governments such as that of America continue down the path they are on, then the world will be a very different place in a very short period of time.

The World Bank and IMF have very stringent doctrine regarding property and rights management in their slave^H^H^H^H^Hdebtor countries. Governments such as America are quite happy, given their financial situation, to bend over and let the rights fly ...

--
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --

Re:Is it? by Mike+Hawk · 2004-01-20 07:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

Another quality troll torpor, but cmon, at least get the basic facts right. Say it with me everyone: THE DMCA WAS SIGNED IN 1998 BY YOUR BOY BILL CLINTON. The one called W had nothing to do with it.

Silly me, I always forget that for the left the world started on Sept. 12th 2001 so how could you possibly know that?
Re:Is it? by torpor · 2004-01-20 07:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Its irrelevant who -signed- it. It takes at least a year, maybe two, before a bill such as DMCA starts to roll out and its effects start to be felt in society.

Whose administration is currently -implementing- it, enforcing it, using it, and at whose behest? The Bush Administration, thats who, and the answer to the latter part of this question is "for the IMF/WB conditions on loan guarantees".

DMCA wasn't rolled out, properly, and fully enforcable, until 2000, and it wasn't until Bush and his cronies got the DHS together that it actually started to have significant weight in the relationship between the US Gov't and US Industry.

Clinton may have created it, but it is Bush who is using it to ill effect, and the same may very well be true of the next administration. The Bush Administration has done more with the DMCA than Clinton did.

(Oh, and I know this might short-circuit your dialectics, but just because I'm anti-Bush doesn't mean I'm pro-Clinton, nor a leftie...)

--
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Re:Is it? by poot_rootbeer · 2004-01-20 09:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

Say it with me everyone: THE DMCA WAS SIGNED IN 1998 BY YOUR BOY BILL CLINTON.

Now YOU escuche y repita:

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DISLIKES GEORGE W. BUSH DOES NOT MEAN THAT BILL CLINTON IS "THEIR BOY".

Counterfeiting is a *federal* crime... by Omega · 2004-01-20 07:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

I certainly appreciate people's rights to make fake looking money for promotional or political purposes, but I'm astonished by how many people forget that counterfeiting is a federal crime.

Some people use their photo printers to make near duplicate dollar bills to put in vending machines and are then surprised when the secret service shows up at their door.

Counterfeiting (in any denomination) is a serious crime. One that is punishable by serving jail time in a federal penitentiary.

Re:Counterfeiting is a *federal* crime... by umeboshi · 2004-01-20 08:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

if that is the case, it's a bad crime to have on the books.

There is no copyright on the denomination, as it's design is in the public domain. The right to reproduce the likeness is protected by the first amendment. The law should focus on the attempted (or possibly successful) entry of the counterfeit denominations into the marketplace.

I see the act of writing 'usa' on monopoly money and attempting to make a purchase with it a far more serious crime than having you den wallpapered with $100 bills.

I'm sorry Dave by ch-chuck · 2004-01-20 07:23 · Score: 5, Funny

I cannot copy that benjamin

--
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }

So What? by GodfatherofSoul · 2004-01-20 07:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

Everyone seems to be simultaneously jumping on this as some sort of attempt by Big Brother to usurp more of our rights. What rights are you losing besides the right to make crappy copies of currency? Is anyone reporting problems using products beyond copying currency?

Of all the ways citizens' rights are being raped by this administration, this effort to block the real problem of small-time counterfeiters ain't one of them.

--
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!

Re:So What? by Cheerio+Boy · 2004-01-20 07:40 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's not a matter of just losing the rights to making copies of our currency.

It's about the loss of rights period.

Remember - the only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights.

Do you really want to give them up so easily?

--

"Bah!" - Dogbert
Re:So What? by diablobynight · 2004-01-20 08:17 · Score: 4, Funny

yes because I can go and buy the paper I would need to even come close to making the feel of a dollar bill, but more importantly, what about for birthdays when I take 100 dollar bills then super impose my ass on the bill and give it to people in cards. I want to still keep doing that, the joke never gets old, the person sees an excellent 100$ bill pulls it fully out of the card and sees my ass with full fruit basket, it's beautiful.

--
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
Re:So What? by hopeless+case · 2004-01-20 08:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

The problem isn't that this is stopping people from printing images of currency, but that it is establishing the principle that it is ok for the government to require programmers to put crime detection / phone home features in their software.

Do you see the problem now?

The "right" being infringed here is very close to speech. The right to write/run software of your own choosing without having to ask the government if it is ok first.

You would consider it a big deal if the government required you to get their approval before publishing an article you had written, wouldn't you?

The phrase prior-restraint comes to mind.
Re:So What? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-20 09:04 · Score: 2, Funny

Oh, not that! A princile has been established! There's nothing to stop Them (by "Them" I of course refer to the Military Industrial Complex) from dragging us all into prison now for not tapping phone lines for Them! Where the hell is my tinfoil hat!? I need protection while I finish building a Faraday cage around my house!!!
News flash: Slippery Slope arguments always represent the desperate FUD of extremists. Always. Left, right, doesn't matter... If you rely on such arguments, you are an enemy of all that is moderate and sensible.
Re:So What? by glitch23 · 2004-01-20 13:01 · Score: 2, Funny

I want to still keep doing that, the joke never gets old, the person sees an excellent 100$ bill pulls it fully out of the card and sees my ass with full fruit basket, it's beautiful.

The picture is beautiful or the joke? Please make the separation.

--
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address

Who is serving whom? by Dutchmaan · 2004-01-20 07:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

We seem to be crossing the barrier from capturing and prosecuting criminals to restraining the general populace in order to protect the status quo institution...

At what point does the government go from serving the wishes of the people to the people serving the wishes of the government?

Take a good and careful look.. this is erosion of freedom at work... Sure maybe it's small and relatively painless.. but then, that's why they call it erosion,

Re:Who is serving whom? by GSloop · 2004-01-20 09:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Having a trustworthy currency relies on trust of the government issuing said currency.

A much larger threat to the currency is the massive deficient and lack of action on Social security and Medicare/Medicaid. These budget/economy busters, of not addressed promptly, will cause serious concern about the viability of the US Gvmt/Economy, and will work to devalue our currency.

A few two bit counterfitters don't come even close to reaching that level of threat.

It's like worrying about the guy who's got a rubber-band and a spit ball pointed at you, when there's a known terrorist who has explosives planted under your house, and a RPG pointed at your head.

Sheesh,
Greg

What incentive do printer manufacturers have? by hchaos · 2004-01-20 07:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

What incentive do printer manufacturers have to treat their customers like criminals?

To be fair, this only treats customers who engage in suspicious activity (as defined by the manufacturer) like criminals. My guess is that roughly 95% of all customers don't care whether or not this is in there, so it doesn't hurt the bottom line in a noticeable manner.

As for the incentive, they most likely want to indemnify themselves in case a criminal organization uses their equipment, and the feds decide to go after the manufacturers, under RICO, Patriot, or whatever other law they can find. This kind of legal battle would have a huge effect on the bottom line.

Nope. by Anonvmous+Coward · 2004-01-20 07:25 · Score: 4, Interesting

"Is this a precursor to DRM in scanners, CD drives, and output devices?"

Nope. It's a pre-emptive step to avoid government mandated DRM in scanners, CD drives, and output devices. If wide-spread counterfitting were to occur because one of these devices was capable of pulling it off, the manufacturer would be able to say "we took reasonable steps to avoid this." If they didn't do that, then the gov't would no doubt cook up its own solution to the problem. I am not a huge fan of this, I would rather these companies stay out of the legal cross-fire.

The United States is going to protect its currency very heavily. Don't provoke them by trying to circumvent this.

Re:Nope. by Tom · 2004-01-20 08:17 · Score: 2, Informative

The United States is going to protect its currency very heavily

ROTFL!

So that's why the US$ scores high on the easy-to-fake scale?

Compare to european currencies, both before and after the Euro, the US$ is cheap paper with green print on it. Maybe they should go and solve the problem at the root.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org

mountains and molehills by circletimessquare · 2004-01-20 07:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

drm will affect millions of computer users in myriad ways: drm is seriously scary

not being able to copy your $20 bill will affect what... 5 avant garde artists?: yawm

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

Re:This = good by Aardpig · 2004-01-20 07:26 · Score: 2, Funny

It's like passing a law mandating an intelligence test before a computer can be purchased.

Agreed. If a law like this were already in place, we would be spared stupid posts like yours.

--
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.

Re:This = good by duffbeer703 · 2004-01-20 07:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

Absolutely.

A 14 year old kid at my little brother's high school is going to be in a youth camp until he's 21 because he made one sided photocopies of a $5 bill in the library and tried to buy a snack with it.

A life destroyed over $5.

--
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK

60dd4mn, 3w3 4R3 4 614nt 4m0n9 m3n!!! by Thud457 · 2004-01-20 07:29 · Score: 2, Funny

GENIUS!
That's the way to "think different"!

(And I'm not just yankin' your chain!)

--

the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Vending machines? by tordon · 2004-01-20 07:29 · Score: 5, Funny

If software can detect bank notes in printer drivers, why can't vending machines do it reliably?

Re:Vending machines? by MrScience · 2004-01-20 09:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

I know this was meant as a joke, but it appears that the printer/photoshop/copier/scanner people don't really care about false positives, while the vending machine people definitely would not want to identify a fake as real. If they used this technology, you would simply have to draw a few circles on a piece of paper to get your carbs.

--
You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. --CmdrTaco

Re:note design changes (anticounterfeit mania) by G4from128k · 2004-01-20 07:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

I wonder if more images will incorporate these anticounterfeiting circles? CD covers, web photos, and books could all incorporate this simple design.

What happens if someone puts the circle design on their webpage images? Does this prevent printing, copying, etc. web images?

Circle mania could get very interesting.

--
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

That explains it! by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · 2004-01-20 07:33 · Score: 4, Funny

Thank you for your post. I've returned 6 printers and both PS and PSP so far. By some freak of nature, my newborn son has birthmarks arranged in the pattern shown in the PDF. Every time I've tried to work with his image the software wouldn't load it. Then when I finally resorted to MS Paint, the printers wouldn't print it!

I was able to defeat this "feature" by drawing another birthmark on my son...problem solved! Thank you slashdot for saving the day...again.

Re:This = good by randomdef · 2004-01-20 07:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

This comes across as total bullshit to me. a 14 year old makes a shit copy of a bill and his teachers, parents, judges and lawyers and etc cannot come up with a better solution then to lock the kid up for 7 years? did he set someone on fire in the process or are you just outright lying?

come on, even in this post 9/11 age we arent locking kids up forever for stupid kid mistakes.

Fair uses? by Tom7 · 2004-01-20 07:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

What is also interesting is that these products block fair uses of currency images which do not break the law.

By using the term "fair uses" you seem to be trying to evoke copyright law. As far as I know, there is no copyright on currency images in the US because they are government publications (and, indeed, not really even "creative works" as required to be copyrightable). The issue is entirely with counterfeiting, obviously, which is actually a much more serious infraction.

Even if this were a copyright issue, no publisher of software is required to write software which enables you to fairly use their, or others', copyrighted material. There's really no legal issue here unless Adobe was forced by law to include this (they weren't)--it's just a matter of what Photoshop customers want, and what Adobe provides.

For my part, I enjoyed learning what those little yellow '20s' on the new series $20 bills are for, and so this whole ordeal was certainly worth it. =)

"Do not copy" symbol by Animats · 2004-01-20 07:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

What happens if someone puts the circle design on their webpage images? Does this prevent printing, copying, etc. web images?

Effectively, there's now a standard symbol for "do not copy". It needs to be better publicized, but it's out there. Soon we'll see it on everything.

Re:"Do not copy" symbol by great_flaming_foo · 2004-01-20 07:47 · Score: 5, Funny

It needs to be better publicized
They tried to publicize it but for some reason their printer wouldn't work...
Re:"Do not copy" symbol by tepples · 2004-01-20 07:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

There has always been such a symbol:

. . SYMB0L. . . SY. . . MB. 0L. . SYMB. 0L SY. MB. . . 0L SY. MB. . . 0L SY. . MB0L. SY . MB. . . 0L. . . SYMB0L. .

dumb lameness filter...
Re:"Do not copy" symbol by gnu-generation-one · 2004-01-20 08:06 · Score: 5, Funny

"Effectively, there's now a standard symbol for "do not copy""

Okay, print this symbol on your letterhead next time you write to your MP, and ask them to forward your letter (as you normally do when writing to MPs, they photocopy the letter, and forward it to the relevant department)

Their secretaries will soon discover how easy this anticounterfeiting technique makes their lives... I wonder if any of them will put a postit note over the symbol to make it photocopy, or whether you can just include a load of them in the watermark. (a watermark in a watermark!)
Re:"Do not copy" symbol by adrianbaugh · 2004-01-20 08:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

So can you get copier paper with this symbol in a watermark? It seems that would be an excellent way for companies to make it significantly harder for confidential memos (etc.) to be photocopied and leaked to business rivals or the press.

--
"'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
- JRR Tolkien.
Re:"Do not copy" symbol by budgenator · 2004-01-20 09:43 · Score: 2, Funny

the only problem I see is copying the do not copy symbol on to the copy you don't want copied. That was like saying GNU means GNU is not unix with straight face

--
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Re:"Do not copy" symbol by anticypher · 2004-01-21 00:55 · Score: 2, Informative

So can you get copier paper with this symbol in a watermark?

Yes, as I noted in another post in this thread. At CeBIT last year there was a company showing off a variety of security related products. They had a number of different kinds of paper and special printers and inks, aimed at companies who need to distribute trackable copies of sensitive things. There was a box of what looked like plain white photocopier paper, except it had thin wavy blue lines printed in quarter circles around each corner, and the little pale yellow circles all over the page. The thin blue lines are generated by an analog engraving process, which ensures that there are many frequency components to a moire pattern when scanned by a digital scanner. An FFT will pick up the large number of frequencies, and interpret the mark as coming from currency, triggering the anti-counterfeiting circuit in photocopiers.

The sales droid identified the yellow circles as "Digimarc circles", and I've been using that assumption ever since. The paper was expensive, at something like 2 euros/sheet for a box of 25 sheets. Now I want a copy of those yellow circles so I can make my own watermark to stick behind my own documents. I just isolated the circles on a 20 euro note, now I have to clean up the image and make it repeat all over a page and then find a copy of photoshop to see what happens.

Also at CeBIT was a whole collection of photocopier manufacturers, all of whom prominently listed anti-counterfeiting as a feature to comply with various national laws. I didn't see any try to hide the fact you couldn't photocopy money, but most of them wouldn't allow anyone to test it because the reset procedure was too difficult.

the AC

--
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Re:"Do not copy" symbol by WWWWolf · 2004-01-21 01:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

Note that this symbol is only on image editing software and color photocopiers. I guess it'd be pointless to add it to plain ordinary grayscale copiers, since counterfeit money produced with them, if we understate a bit, is easy to recognize...
Better just print the confidential memos on deep red paper =)

Re:Spyware? Wrong term I think. by mike_mgo · 2004-01-20 07:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

My father is a copier salesman. The newer model copiers (color at least) won't let you copy currency. I think the first two times you try it will print out a black page and give you an error message about copying currency. If you try a third time the machine will lock down. To unlock it you need to get a service call from the manufacturer who will also notify the authorities.

In other news by SharpFang · 2004-01-20 07:41 · Score: 3, Funny

US central bank sent back to the producer a batch of professional heavy-duty printing machines they had bought in order to print dollar bills. The built-in money detection prevents them from printing the bills. They plan outsourcing production of US Dollars to India.

In other news:
US Inflation lowest since last 3 months.

--
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2

Crime yes. Prevention no. by nurb432 · 2004-01-20 07:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Just beacuse you can use said device for a crime does not mean it should be crippled.

Charge and convict the criminals. Dont just assume everyone is and cripple the product.

its not the manufacturing companies job to police its usage, its the law enforcements job.

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

It's dumb though by John+Courtland · 2004-01-20 07:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

How can a company that produces high quality image reproduction machines be culpable in the event that someone uses it to counterfeit money? It's akin to selling knives, most people use them to cut vegetables, but there are those few who use them to cut people. Doesn't stop the sale of knives, nor does it leave the knife company in legal trouble because someone used it improperly.

--
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.

Ever seen a printed bill? by 192939495969798999 · 2004-01-20 07:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Have any of you ever seen a bill printed off of a printer? It looks like monopoly money, even if it's an Epson Pro Stylus 10000 with archival ink, and sweet paper. The only way to get the effect of real money even nearly not "monopoly"-ish, is to use engravings and print the stuff... and believe me, once you start down that road, you're in for some trouble.

--
stuff |

Actually, YOU report in... by temojen · 2004-01-20 07:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

Suddenly, the expensive printer in your office starts printing every image (but not text) in fluorescent green. It has plenty of magenta toner, plain paper, a surge suppressor, etc. It's having the same problem with both Windows and BSD or Linux computers, so you know it's not a driver issue.

So, what do you do?

You call tech support to find out you need to do a firmware upgrade, remove the network card, turn the printer off & back on, while holding a button, turn it off, replace the network card, turn it back on, and calibrate it 3 times.

Have this same trouble ticket a few times and I bet they'll notify the RCMP, MI-6, FBI, or whatever it is in your country.

All because someone at your office was "playing" with a new logo design, that happens to include a scanned image of the "great pyramid" on the US dollar bill.

Open-source drivers to be prohibited? by Animats · 2004-01-20 07:45 · Score: 4, Interesting

HP implemented this technology in their Windows printer drivers, not in their printers. This raises some serious questions for open-source printer support.

Will printers be locked to Windows drivers, so that they only work with Windows? This might be justified as an "anti-counterfeiting" measure. Otherwise, there's an "open source hole" in the protection strategy.

Will generic printer drivers stop working? What about standalone printer spooling devices? Less-common operating systems?

Score one for the lawyers by digrieze · 2004-01-20 07:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why is anyone surprised? The legal eagles (actually, vultures) have been screaming for a year now that their bread and butter will be in suing manufacturers of equipment used in a crime or civil litigation by convincing people that when you produce a product you commit the crime, the criminal who uses that product is errelevant because he couldn't do it if you didn't make the product (besides, he doesn't have the big pockets to get into, so why would the law (lawyers) have any interest in a petty crook. If you think the gun manufacturers were an abberation you're living in Lilliput.

When someone gets caught with counterfit money they usually lose it, no reimbursement. Lets' say you got your paycheck out of the instant banker in $20s and the cashier at the restaurant finds out they're counterfit. You lose the money, and after talking the police out of taking you to jail (hope you got a printed receipt at the IB) who's your lawyer gonna sue? If you think he's going to sue a petty crook for a few hundred bucks you're nuts.

The major loss of liberties don't come from the government, they come from our fear of the legal vultures and uncontrolled, unjustified litigation.

--
It doesn't matter what you wrap your emotions around, Reality is a brick wall specifically designed to scramble eggs

Re:note design changes (anticounterfeit mania) by jafac · 2004-01-20 07:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

When they start putting the dots in pr0n images, that will be the END of the internet.

--

These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.

Just More Bloat by no+longer+myself · 2004-01-20 07:49 · Score: 3, Interesting

A long while back I owned a DMP, and it printed out text marginally, images were dreadful, and in both cases it was slow.

Then came my first inkjet. The ink wasn't any cheaper back then, the resolution was about as crisp as a DMP, and it used a driver included with Windows 95.

A few inkjets later, the drivers had to be installed and the the bell and whistle feature creep was causing a noticable delay in the printer startup time.

Today the printers you buy require more hard drive space than Windows 95 ever used, they phone home as soon as they detect an internet connection, they won't let you use all the ink in a cartridge, they won't even let you use competitor's refills, they frequently break down (but it's more cost effective just to buy another one) and the one thing that still eludes all common sense:

They are still able to sell these pieces of crap at a higher rate today than any time before now.

You get what you deserve. If you (not just the stupid people, but all of you) continue to buy trash hardware, the manufacturers will continue to make more and more. In the long run it will only be cost effective for themselves - Not you - Themselves.

Sad to think that I threw away a couple of newer inkjets because of their short lived construction, but my ol' HP 500, Stylus 660, and that old DMP work just fine. Sure the color picture print-outs were pretty, but I didn't miss the bloatware headaches they caused.

Just stop buying crap, people. Make it a priority. Put it on your "to do" list. Give it a whirl. Don't just give it lip service. If you want to effect change, actually put your convictions into practice. Don't just mod my butt down because you think I'm being obnoxious. I'm making a valid point. It's not always palatable to hear the truth, but you need to start making more conscious efforts in your buying habits - Not the guy in the next cubical - YOU.

the real issue by frovingslosh · 2004-01-20 07:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

The real issues here is how much bloat and stealing of computing cycles is going into this software that the user neither wants nor needs. Imagine how much computing power is needed to do the image recognition to look at any image and decide if it contains any "forbiden" image, at any angle, before printing it. And the user pays for this, both in wasted memory for that printer "driver" and in computing cycles and time wasted waiting for that software to be run on every page you print.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.

HOLY CRAP by Mike+Hawk · 2004-01-20 07:53 · Score: 4, Interesting

Looking up the powers of the Secret Service I found this:

What are the rules for the printing, publishing and illustrations of U.S. currency?

The Counterfeit Detection Act of 1992, Public Law 102-550, in Section 411 of Title 31 of the Code of Federal Regulations, permits color illustrations of U.S. currency provided:
1. the illustration is of a size less than three-fourths or more than one and one-half, in linear dimension, of each part of the item illustrated;
2. the illustration is one-sided; and
3. all negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices, and any other thing used in the making of the illustration that contain an image of the illustration or any part thereof are destroyed and/or deleted or erased after their final use.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 504 permits black and white reproductions of currency and other obligations, provided such reproductions meet the size requirement. See Know Your Money for more information.

So basically, even if you did it once, you'd have to destroy your printer and delete any storage medium used to make it.
Secret Service wins, good game!

Dont take this so easy. by miffo.swe · 2004-01-20 07:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is serious stuff. We live in a society where the individual is supposed to make their own decisions. I see a trend towards the government taking over more and more of the decision process. The step is not far from limiting speech. It will ofcourse start with "dangerous" talk. The start is not what worries me but the end, oh boy the end.

Taken togheter these erosion of the individual rights is pretty scary and should not be taken lighly. If you wake up and find yourself in a world where your choices as an individual is severly limited, dont complain.

Now is the time.

--
HTTP/1.1 400

Wrong signals by unoengborg · 2004-01-20 07:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

If people gets used to that law is something that is guarded by technical devices and not by moral and ethical standards of the citizens, we are on a very dangerous path. If peple are forced to follow they will find ways to break it, just for the feeling of freedom it would create.

--
God is REAL! Unless explicitly declared INTEGER

Governments should release hi res images by Atroxodisse · 2004-01-20 07:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

Governments should release hi res images of fake bills that have identifying marks on them. This way people with legitimate use arguments can use them but still not be able to use them as counterfeit. They could look nearly identical to fake bills but have a differing watermark and a special ID number on them so cashiers can see if it's a fake. Photoshop isn't fool proof. I was able to open a photo of a one dollar bill that I downloaded from the net.

--
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.

It's not spyware by Rex+Code · 2004-01-20 08:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

...yet. "spyware" is something that phones home. This just refers you to http://rulesforuse.org and refuses to print more than one inch of the currency printout. However (as was pointed out on BugTraq), the next version of the printer's drivers could easily be upgraded to the special spyware edition.

Re:Oh grow up by Mr+Guy · 2004-01-20 08:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

Boy you are going to get the IP police on you about this one.

Downloading MP3's is NOT a federal crime, for very many reasons.

1) It pisses me off when people leave out the words "without distribution permission". I know why people do it, but the net result is it allows people to label an entire class of LEGAL activity as being shady. For example, absolutely nothing stops me from recording my wife singing, encoding it in the MP3 format, and sharing it. There are plenty of bands (insert rant about commercialized music and better alternatives) that have authorized distribution. MP3 != stolen

2) It's not a federal crime. It's a violated contract. These are civil court infractions, not federal violations.

3) The difference between a civil dispute and a federal crime is quite large. As in the difference between at most a fine and years of jail time.

The parent poster was absolutely right. People forget what a REAL crime it is and ruin their whole lives. You'd honestly be better off stealing a candy bar than forging a $5 to pay for it.

--
Never confuse volume with power.

Re:Spyware? Wrong term I think. by ssstraub · 2004-01-20 08:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

If you try a third time the machine will lock down. To unlock it you need to get a service call from the manufacturer who will also notify the authorities.

Sounds like it's time for a trip to the local Kinko's!

Counterfeiting is done every day legally! by dada21 · 2004-01-20 08:05 · Score: 2, Informative

As an ancap, I believe this is completely legitimate for the private companies to include this type of anti-counterfeit detection. The day could come when it is enforced by government, which I believe is completely against their Constitutional powers, so I'd prefer to see it done privately. You are free to stop using software or printers that enable this 'feature.'

On the other hand, all governments of the world legally counterfeit money every day. Back when money was real hard currency (whether it was gold or silver or dirt or wood), government didn't have the ability to steal from the citizens. Today, they do it constantly using something known as inflation. They print new fiat currency, which causes costs to rise for everyone. And we allow this. Sure, government blames it on business and the free market, but inflation can only truly occur when someone introduces new currency into the market -- sometimes counterfeiters do but it is rare. Government counterfeits every day, lowering the value of our stocks, our bank accounts, and any currency in our pockets. A silent form of taxation, and one that hurts everyone at every level of wealth.

You might want to take a closer look by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-20 08:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Your child might actually be running afoul of the anti-Christ detection algorithms that were installed into software long before all this currency stuff. It looks for a specific pattern of 3 '6's on your child and should be helpful in alerting you to your child's status as the anti-Christ (along with the explained rash of deaths you must be experiencing). The quickest workaround is to change one of the 6s into an 8 with a sharpie.

Why don't you post a picture of little Damien. I bet he's a real cutie patooty.

This is stupid by mark-t · 2004-01-20 08:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

Really.

I don't know about the U.S. but here in Canada, currency has so many anti-counterfeit measures built into it that if someone could afford to manufacture the printers that would be required to pass something off as the real thing, they don't need to waste time with counterfeiting, because they're already filthy stinkin' rich.

There's much more to paper money than meets the eye, and it's sooo easy to identify forgeries that are mere cosmetic copies (no matter how high resolution the printer or scanner is, the real security details aren't something that any off-the-shelf products could ever even *HOPE* to replicate) that I really don't see why this should be an issue. The only reason fake 5's and 10's ever start getting propogated is because the person they passed them off to was lazy, not because the copy was so good.

--
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'

Re:This is stupid by tomhudson · 2004-01-20 09:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't know where in Canada you live, but here in Montreal, Quebec, about half the stores have signs saying they won't take $100.00 bills.
Add to that the lack of useable security measures on the $10.00 bill (yes, the security measures are there, but they're not noticeable to the average person, so the bill is easily faked), and the fact that the paper for the new $10.00 bills doesn't feel like "real money" to begin with, and we have a problem.
Also, the $5.00 bill is easy to counterfeit with an inkjet because there are too many broad expanses of blue.
It's not that people are lazy (your proposition). When you're in the checkout lane and there are 20 people waiting behind you, if you're polite, you're not going to subject your change to more than a cursory once-over. Same goes for situations where the lighting is questionable (clubs and bars) or you're just damn tired.
The real solution is to go to an all-coin currency, because at the current rate of progress the counterfeiters are going to win if we stick with paper. (Or even plastic)

New for some, old for others by gordguide · 2004-01-20 08:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

I remember about a decade ago, when Canon first began to challenge Xerox in the standalone copier market with new color copiers, the documentation described security features to prevent currency copying (colors would be rendered incorrectly or the copy would be otherwise unuseable).

So, this kind of thing is hardly new; perhaps the notable thing about it is that it wasn't possible or desireable with optical/film process that digital imaging is displacing or replacing.

Although the topic indicates it's not illegal to copy currency, that must be considered only true in a given jurisdiction (ie the US as indicated).

It is most certainly a crime to depict or reproduce any valid currency in Canada, and it's not limited to same-size or color reproduction either.

I'm sure many nations have prohibitions to copying or depicting currency.

How Effective? by fernd1 · 2004-01-20 08:42 · Score: 3, Informative

With Photoshop we all heard about the workarounds. Though, I was wondering how effective the algorithm is in the first place. Does the quality of the bill come into question? I scanned a slightly used ten-dollar bill, and there was no trouble importing it into Photoshop CS. I saved the picture as a *.psd, and had no trouble reopening it. I applied several filters on the image with no problems. I have yet to try this on a 20-dollar bill. Either it only detects 20 dollar bills and higher, or the quality of the bill (i.e. slightly creased) dramatically affects whether the software detects currency.

Re:How Effective? by Laplace · 2004-01-20 10:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

I have yet to try this on a 20-dollar bill. Either it only detects 20 dollar bills and higher, or the quality of the bill (i.e. slightly creased) dramatically affects whether the software detects currency.

You may have noticed that the 20-dollar bill has gone through several revisions, but the one-dollar bill is the same old style that you used over a decade ago. Why? There is no money in forging one-dollar bills.

--
The middle mind speaks!

Who Cares? Just So Much Bratty Hyperbole by reallocate · 2004-01-20 08:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

>>"What incentive do printer manufacturers have to treat their customers like criminals?"

That's the kind of bratty hyperbole I'd expect to hear from ill-educated 13-year olds. If a device is constructed to attempt to prevent a crime, no one is treating anyone as a "criminal". (Or did you plan on making copies of your dollars?)

Are you offended when you're neighbor locks his doors? Are you offended when your neighbor activates his car alarm? Are you offended that currency is deliberately construcuted to thwart counterfeiting? Are you offended when your favorite retailer's computer checks to make sure the credit card you're trying to use isn't stolen?

Why would you be offended about a piece of hardware that's wired to keep people from committing a crime?

As for the incentive to make these things, perhaps

--
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"

Let's top using the Federal Rerserve bank notes by gerardrj · 2004-01-20 08:54 · Score: 2, Informative

There's a guy that started printing his own money. This is not illegal, ANYONE can print currency and use it for transactions as long as both parties agree to the value of the currency. A good example of this is Disney Dollars or supermarket script.
Anyway... you can use use it to make purchases all the time. His money is backed by actual deposits of gold and silverin an actual warehouse, not debt and guns. The money is widely used for commerce.
If you don't like the Fed and corporations restricting your digital imaging of bank notes, then go take a look and try it out.

*I ma not, nor am I affiliated with norfed, I am not an authorized exchange center and I make not money from the currency, I'm just a happy user of the notes.

--
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people

Re:Spyware? Wrong term I think. by eclectro · 2004-01-20 09:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

That's just it. Whoever gets stuck with a bad twenty is left holding the bag. We live in a world where scanners/printers are lightyears improved over what we had a couple years ago, and they continue to improve.

What this is designed to do is prevent the "casual counterfeiter" from being in business. Like the teenager who decides that he needs an extra "allowance" and prints off a couple of twenties. Before you know it all his freinds at school are doing it, and then their friends etc. etc.

Then there is a guy that decides that he'll just one off a twenty for dinner (as it's not going to hurt anybody). Human nature being what it is, he sees how easy it is and decides to "stick it to the government for all the bad things that it has done". So he prints out a hundred 20s next weekend.

Then you have those governments that are "hostile" to the US and decide to set up warehouses of printers churning out money so they can finance their terrorists activities against the US.

Before you know it you have a nation of counterfeiters and a destroyed currency. This means that the government has to issue a national id card for electronic cashless transactions. Privacy becomes zilch, as you have merchants refusing to accept cash (like many do not accept checks now (and this is increasing too)) because it's all counterfeit.

I do not see this stopping somebody from making a copy of something. If an artist needs an image of currency, I suggest that they become "old school" and pull out the pens and pencils and do a JS Boggs and draw one.

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I also enjoy the anonymity that paying with cash has to offer. But if copying money at home becomes easy then everybody starts doing it. Look at the history of our own money to see that this could happen. It would be history repeating itself. I would rather inconvenience the artist (and that's all this is, an inconvenience) than being forced with a national cash/id card.

--
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"

How to defeat the copy protection by lhand · 2004-01-20 09:21 · Score: 3, Funny

You can easly defeat the copy protection in virtually all products by simply

[ Notice: Text removed by slashdot anti-copying ] [ protection. For information please go to the ] [ http://www.rulesforabuse.org site. Thank you. ]

and press print. Viola! Instant copies.

New GIMP plugin by dimss · 2004-01-20 09:24 · Score: 2, Funny

Now it's time to write new GIMP plugin called "print a buck".

Input parameters:
1) Currency: USD/EUR/LVL/...
2) Resolution: 300/600/1200/2400 dpi
3) Value: 1/2/5/10/20/50...

follow the link to the US Secret Service... by pohzer · 2004-01-20 09:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

Follow rulesforuse.org to the US section, which sends you to the Secret Service website, where the Investigative Mission states:

The Secret Service believes that its primary enforcement jurisdictions will only increase in significance in the 21st Century. For this reason, the Secret Service has adopted a proactive approach to monitor the development of technology and continue to use it in the interest of federal, state, and local law enforcement.

Re:So What? -- It is not Bank's Computer by dnoyeb · 2004-01-20 09:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

No, its fucking stupid. Another waste of time and money.

If I intend to reprint money on your printers, you don't think I can update the firmware? (lets also remember all jobs are inside jobs)

Oh, excuse me! Printers are too cheap to have firmware anyway, its all in the drivers. CUPS anyone?

Re: this is enforced by governments by anticypher · 2004-01-20 10:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

As an ancap, I believe this is completely legitimate for the private companies ... The day could come when it is enforced by government

I'm beginning to believe anarchist is just another word for ignorant. Every anarchist I've met recently seems to be completely ignorant of every aspect of an issue, most are just protesting for the sake of protesting. As one put it at the software patent protests in Brussels last year, "I protest against everything, but mostly I do this to meet chicks".

Since you weren't paying attention, Adobe's product director Kevin Smith admitted they put this code into their product under pressure from the U.S. Department of the Treasury and the Department of Fath^WHomeland Defense. They willingly took a chunk of binary code developed by Digimarc and IBM under a contract to the G20 central banks (including the US Federal Reserve), and placed it directly into their product. This code is called at every manipulation of an image, copying to clipboard, pasting, opening a file, saving a file, rotations, etc. It is not a module or a plugin that can be removed, but built into the main PS code.

Although I have yet to see a thorough analysis from reverse engineering the code, I know that Omron, the company that makes the currency detection components used in many photocopiers and printers, promotes three algorithms which are used to detect bills. The most obvious is Digimarc's single color channel circles. The circles can be one of several colors, to blend in with scheme used on the bill. The second requires running Fast Fourier Transforms on the horizontal and vertical slices crossing each curved line on a bill, where each line has a slightly different radius to its bend, and slightly different spacing to the next line. The FFT's output "blows up" into a large, unprocessable value very quickly when it hits a patch of curvy lines. The third has to do with moire patterns, but the detection algoritm is unknown to me.

So there are two main complaints, the first to do with photoshop now running much slower because every manipulation gets passed through the government approval software before happening.

The more vocal complaints are about how the a number of governments have now convinced a bunch of companies to include untested, unknown, "black box" software in their products. Today the extra software is just running a few FFT and pattern matching algorithms which trigger an alert pointing the user to a Euro CentralBank run website. Tomorrow, various governments could require much more intrusive software to be installed in all products or in the operating system itself as a precursor to gently and slowly outlawing "untrustworthy" software. Indeed, the ECB is already contemplating legislation requiring all digital equipment and software that can store or process images to include this software. That includes all camera phones, digital cameras, computers, operating systems, scanners, printers, free software projects like the GIMP, etc.

Get with the panic, this is /.

the AC

--
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on

Think of the children, or Fed fatasses no more by defile · 2004-01-20 11:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

A couple of years ago Wired ran an article on amateur counterfeiting. It turns out that hundreds of kids nationwide independently came to the conclusion that it would be hillarious to run off piles of $20 bills with their new printers and hand them out in their local communities, absolutely unaware how serious a crime this is in the United States.

Federal agencies that had budgets to justify and headlines to make prosecuted these kids to the fullest extent of the law, which meant years of imprisonment and enormous fines. Most of these kids were devastated, and rarely did the feds care that this was petty crime and the kids would be better off with a slap on the wrist and the parents sternly scolded.

So consider this; these anti-conterfeiting features aren't even going to put a dent into the plans of real counterfeiters, but it may hamper Little Timmy enough that he loses interest in rolling off some bills and returns to his regularly scheduled youthful destructive activities like flaming bags of poo and toilet papering houses.

By taking the amateurs out of the marketplace, the feds can't go after the easy stupid prey anymore. The little punks will turn to other petty crime so that your locally appointed authorities can deal with them, while the feds stay out of your neighborhood since they're focusing on the large-scale professional counterfeiters.

It's a stretch, but considered this way, Adobe et al. are promoting states rights.

There's an epidemic of casual fakes by UninvitedCompany · 2004-01-20 11:24 · Score: 4, Interesting

In all this conversation were missing an important fact. That is, that there is a serious problem with casual counterfeitting of currency. In the U.S., most currency actually passed is now produced on color printers and copiers. While such copies are easy to identify, they are usually passed in situations where they will not receive much scrutiny. That is, in low light situations where the cashier is in a hurry, like in a bar or at a concert. Usually the cashiers don't care that much, since they aren't the one who's out the money when a fake comes in -- except at places like electronics stores that have more exposure and so train their cashiers better. By the time the counterfeit is found, the doer is long gone and so the business ends up just getting screwed. They don't have any recourse. Now, the counterfeitting laws and the whole enforcement system is predicated upon the idea that fakes can't be produced without substantial upfront effort. The print-on-demand nature of this type of counterfeitting makes prosecution tricky. With offset counterfeits, there are multiple people involved. There are resources to get, cameras, plate burners, presses, paper, ink, and all these attract attention. Computer-produced fakes aren't like that. There's no evidence except perhaps what forensic analysis can turn up on the hard drive. The presence of counterfeits detracts from the widespread acceptance of currency. Since currency is the only practical anonymous means of payment, those of us who value our privacy would do well to support measures that keep currency practical. Now, the anticopying measures in the printers are, as far as anyone has been able to tell, a voluntary measure on the part of the manufacturers. Good for them. It is one of only two good choke points for the problem, the other being to have cashiers check in detail for things like watermarks. Is it a form of DRM? Not really, since it is wholly unrelated to copyright law, and since there is no digital distribution of the "content" in the first place. What are the implications for open source? None. Open source systems could include such measures and may do so in the fullness of time. Just because it can be disabled by the knowledgeable makes no difference. When the day comes when 90% of the desktops have an open source operating system and desktop suite, most of the user base will have no idea how to make such changes.

Photocopying currency by Aaden42 · 2004-01-20 11:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

There's nothing sinister about photocopiers not copying currency. I've read in the past that the paper and/or its coatings (at least for US currency) are designed to absorb light in the spectrum that photocopiers use. If nothing gets reflected by the money back to the copier, the copier just sees black.

Your run of the mill photocopier doesn't have the smarts to do that kind of image analysis processing (yet).

Now... I'm waiting for some graphic artist types to start filing suit on First Ammendment grounds. But seeing as we're well on our way to destroying that, who knows...

my idea by ocie · 2004-01-20 12:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

I thought it would be a good idea for currency to have features designed to throw off scanners and printers. The first would be a set of converging lines at a small angle, like a horizonal line that intersects a diagonal line one one end and is seperated by 1/4 inch on the other end. Another idea is to have several square fields each filled with close set parallel lines. Each field would be rotated slightly from the one next to it, so if you squint at the bill, they will all look a uniform grey, but if you copy it, the raster pattern should be evident and result in a checkerboard or some other pattern.

--
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere

Please visit the site by bobalu · 2004-01-20 15:59 · Score: 2, Funny

because *I* did, and unless about a million OTHER people thing I did they may THINK I actually got there by trying to print a picture of currency which I would never ever do because I'm trying to think of ways to scam people *legally*, really really I swear and oh God i don't want the freakin' Secret Service to visit my boss, or well, fuck the neighbors but I swear I thought they said "Secret Squirrel" you see and I.... oh never mind.

--
The revolution will NOT be televised.

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