Stallman Goes to India

what sealed the deal.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-01 20:34 · Score: 5, Funny

..is when Stallman promised the president a totaly no-cost, no-strings-attached copy of GCC for every Indian citizen. Even Bill Gates couldn't match that incredibly generous offer!!

Re:what sealed the deal.. by NonSequor · 2004-02-01 20:57 · Score: 4, Funny

Bill Gates offered them a set of steak knives but for some reason they turned down the offer.

--
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
Re:what sealed the deal.. by gid13 · 2004-02-01 22:41 · Score: 5, Funny

Actual conversation between the lead singer of my band and his overly Christian aunt:

"Holy cow!"
"Cows aren't holy, Mike."
"In India they are."
"Well, they're wrong."

What does this have to do with software, you ask? Uh... Well... Christians try to bind everyone to Christianity and Microsoft tries to bind everyone to Windows. Yeah. Think about it. :)
Re:what sealed the deal.. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-01 23:21 · Score: 5, Funny

Would that be Big Indian or Little Indian ?
Re:what sealed the deal.. by MountainMan101 · 2004-02-01 23:52 · Score: 3, Funny

You wouldn't believe how silly I felt when I realised that it wasn't an autobiography.
Re:what sealed the deal.. by no+longer+myself · 2004-02-02 00:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why does Stallman hate america?
I don't think he does. Corperatists have long enjoyed exploiting Americans since early on, but for good or ill, unions and labor laws have made it hard to compete in the current climate. Naturally, they outsource to nations that don't have these kinds of laws.
On the one hand, the corperatist has his eye on cheap labor. It's one of the principle foundations of capitalism, and technically, there's nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, they lobby relentlessly with law makers to ensure that new-comers will be at a significant disadvantage by making the entry-level cost of competing too high for even the brightest would-be entreprenuer.
Of course, what does this have to do with "free" software? Well, it's obvious that many corperations have a vested interest in keeping individuals from competing at their level, and the fact of the matter is, you can create very professional and profitable systems using the tools found under the GPL.
Proprietary software is something that corperatists are comfortable with. They can control it through tiered licensing schemes, and even control how a person may use the software, and to what extent. This allows them to control the growth of any would-be competition, and even prune it if necessary. The average "Merkin" is none-the-wiser of their schemes, and it all gets wrapped up in nice, neat, legal redtape.
Enter The "Free as in Freedom" software.
Corperatists can't control it. Therefore it is difficult to impossible to control their competition. So they whine to the legislators they need more patent laws, copyright laws, and generally speaking- more of every law out there to keep those pesky would-be entreprenuers out of the "Free Market".
So if you love freedom, and you want to be free to pursue your goals in life, what is the best way to stop them? Go outside the US. Make sure that the rest of the world has these tools and that they become standard issue before their governments become poluted with corperatistic protectionist laws. With other nations having such an advantage, the American people might just wake up and smell the bullshit that these exploitationists have been shoveling. Some of them might actually send off a letter to their congress saying, "If we live in such a FREE country, why can't we have these tools as well? Hell, even those damned commies have better software than we do!"
And so the repeal of corperatist legislation may begin, and a FREE MARKET can take its place where people may buy and sell goods without the overbearing corperation run beauracracy that we have today.
And don't you damned corperatists go calling me a libral. It's not communism or socialism. It's called a Free Market and Free (as in Freedom) software will give rise to newer and better Free Markets. Corperations controlling the legislative body of government better deserve the moniker of communism since currently they control production, labor, and distribution, and, largely, the social and cultural life and thought of the people. In spite of all their hand-waving about being American capitalists, they are the very essence of un-American communisism.
If we are ever to truly be free, we must stand as individuals and stop licking the hand of our corperate puppetmasters.
To control or be controlled. Which is it?
OK, I had the guts to take this "Karma Swan-Dive". Let's hope it's not in vain.
Re:what sealed the deal.. by HiThere · 2004-02-02 07:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

Have you met a missionary pagan?
They why do you assume they exist.

(Well, they actually do exist. I attribute this to a christian upbringing which rather permanently warped them.)

I've also met missionary Buddists. They, also, are rare. And tend to be of peculiar splinter sects.

Muslims are required by their religion to convert you. For athiests it's an optional extra. There's nothing inherent in atheism that says you must go around converting people. But if you were raised christian or muslim, you're likely to feel the need to do it anyway.

OTOH, not all christians are missionary. There are even rather large groups that don't feel the compulsion (as a group) to require everyone to believe the same way that they do. But it is implicit in the standard theology. (If you believe that you should "love" everyone [in some sense of the term], and you believe that everyone who doesn't believe as you believe will be tortured forever [by a god that loves them], then it is only natural to want to help both the god and the person to remove the cognitive dissonance by causing them to believe as you believe. So missionary activity is normal to normal christian theology.)

But this same reasoning doesn't apply to the other religions. The Muslims must cause you to convert because the Koran tells them to. The Buddists have an implicit need to "save" you, but there are many turns of the wheel in which to accomplish the end. No need to hurry. (There's lots of disagreement about the details of this last bit, but that's the general flavor.)

And Pagans? Well, the followers of the Sun god cults tend to believe that theirs is the only true way, but the other groups tend to consider them a bit strange. The animists don't even really have a concept that corresponds to "convert". There are, we could call them Momotheists who try to get everyone to accept The Goddess as a substitue for The Father, but that's probably due to a monotheistic upbringing. There's nothing obviously inherrent in the religion to demand universal belief. The polytheists are usually willing to consider that any new god might be one of the real ones. The pantheists already accept the new god, without quibble. Though neither group will necessarily accept the god on his own terms. Gods PR agents are no more reliable than any othe PR agents.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Full text by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-01 20:35 · Score: 3, Informative

Kalam, Stallman discuss open source software

By Sandeep Dikshit

NEW DELHI, JAN. 31. The President, A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, last Thursday played host to two radically divergent poles of the global software industry.

The first to meet the President was Richard Stallman, the leading light of the free and open source software (FOSS) movement.

Ironically, the people waiting in the Presidential anteroom for the interaction to end were people from Microsoft.

Dr. Stallman has devoted his life to countering Microsoft's policy of selling software that cannot be changed because its code is kept a secret. It also cannot be shared because of licensing restrictions.

Talking to The Hindu, Dr. Stallman said the President was "receptive'' to his views that development of software should be seen as a political and social issue and not just from the technological point of view.

At a meeting that lasted 40 minutes, they discussed the need to give people an alternative way to use computers by popularising open source software (OSS).

"The President said this was a beautiful concept,'' said Dr. Stallman. Mr. Kalam had prepared for the meeting by downloading Dr. Stallman's biography from the Internet which in keeping with the FOSS movement guru's philosophy is available free of cost.

The two also went over several common interests, including the use of software in space programming. For the first time, the Mars Rovers vehicle is using OSS and it is reported to be functioning well.

They also reminisced on the development work on several software programmes in which both had taken interest.

Besides explaining the political philosophy of FOSS movement, Dr. Stallman said he also spoke to the President about the real intention behind Microsoft's plan to spread the use of computers in schools which was "akin to the colonial system of recruiting the local elite to help keep others in line.''

"I hope my discussion had some influence on the President and he will be able to resist being used that way.''

Dr. Stallman gave up a cushy teaching job in a prestigious American university after he perceived that "computer colonisation'' was spreading rapidly.

"There were only two options. Either I stopped using computers or I help everybody to escape. I chose the latter,'' he said.

He explained the concept behind FOSS. The word "free'' did not mean giving the software gratis.

Rather, it denoted the freedom to control the computer because the seller of FOSS also provided the source code or the manner in which a particular software was constructed.

"This way you can see how it works, you can change it and also share the software.''

By taking to FOSS, India would be able to cut down on the outflow of foreign exchange which was going to become very large in the near future.

So far, Microsoft licences were not being forced on individuals, but in the coming days, proprietary software companies would make it impossible for individuals to make copies clandestinely.

"The flood (outflow of foreign exchange) will then become a torrent,'' he said. Free software, in contrast, would encourage local information technology developers to innovate and adapt the software constantly. The result will be that money will circulate in the local economy, he said.

Re:Full text by Elektroschock · 2004-02-01 21:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

I prefer "FLOSS" as a term.

However a support of India for Free Softwareon the international level may be very helpful in the defense against Software patents. There is still no *real US-movement* (join this list:-)) but an Indian committment similar to Brazil could be beneficial on the internatioanl level.

Also think of the fact that WSISII in Tunis will distribute UN money for IT- projects.
Re:Full text by gasgesgos · 2004-02-01 21:43 · Score: 5, Funny

The site's not even slashdotted, (I hope) most of us can actually click a link (or type in the link, for IE users) and read the original article ourselves, without possibility of alteration from the karma whores.

Next the karma whores are going to start repeating the Slashdot headline and text "in case it ever gets slashdotted."

FULL TEXT OF SLASHDOT POSTING:

Stallman Goes to India

Posted by michael on Monday February 02, @02:33AM
from the exploring-outsourcing-next-version-of-gcc dept.
SureshD writes "The Hindu is reporting on a 40 minute long meeting between Richard Stallman and the Indian President - Dr APJ Abdul Kalam. After the interview, RMS said that the President was 'receptive' to his views that development of software should be seen as a political and social issue and not just from the technological point of view. Interestingly, the article mentions that the President had prepared for the meeting by downloading and reading Stallman's biography (Free as in Freedom) from the Internet."

( Read More... | 62 of 75 comments )

can I have my +5 informative now?

Wow... by mgebbers · 2004-02-01 20:35 · Score: 4, Funny

I didn't know the Indian government was hiring

This is pricing strategy. by mumblestheclown · 2004-02-01 20:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

In a May 2003 speech, President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam noted that OSS offered India "a superior opportunity to modernize." This was followed just a short while later by India negotiaing a superiorly low-cost deal with microsoft for its services.

I think one must look in terms of governmental actions on OSS in such a strategic light. Kalam, a figurehead king, may be a true believer, but insofar as his actions on software goes, he's being used as a pawn to gain better licensing terms from microsoft.

Re:This is pricing strategy. by metlin · 2004-02-01 21:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

Not true.

A lot of govt. organizations in India today use OSS. For every area of the govt that uses Microsoft software, there is atleast one other counterpart which uses OSS.

In fact, the last time I checked, a lot of states were having budget deficits. Guess what is it that they cut down on?

I know for a fact that several nationalized banks as well as other govt agencies have switched to OSS.

You think MS would get scared merely by the "threat" of OpenSource? The reason they are really scared is because there are parts of the nation that use OSS, and it works.

Now THAT would explain why Microsoft is opening so many branches in India -- primarily because they would have the excuse of providing jobs, and to feed those jobs they would need the govts money for software.

Do not think MS would be doing this unless there is a benefit for them.
Re:This is pricing strategy. by Serious+Simon · 2004-02-01 21:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

Maybe, but apparently even Microsoft recognizes that OSS is a feasible alternative for India. Otherwise they wouldn't have been forced to drastically lower the price of their offering.
Re:This is pricing strategy. by jkrise · 2004-02-01 21:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

This is simply not true. The President has in fact specifically mentioned the problems of choosing proprietary code, and unreliable vendors of said code. His vision is backed by political funding for universities, centers-of-excellence, and other initiatives for furthering open-source in India.

To say that the President did this as a bargaining strategy with Microsoft is an insult. In fact, during a prior meeting with Mr.Gates, the press were full of pictures of Gates and Dr. Kalam strolling in the gardens. Dr. Kalam took special pains to mention that the discussions duringg that meeting 'turned difficult' since Mr.Gates wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with India's vision for computing.

-

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Re:This is pricing strategy. by DF5JT · 2004-02-01 22:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

" Maybe, but apparently even Microsoft recognizes that OSS is a feasible alternative for India. Otherwise they wouldn't have been forced to drastically lower the price of their offering."

The good thing about it is the fact that Microsoft will have to change its attitude in questions of interoperability and support of open standards. In that sense, the pressure of OSS software really will change the way proprietory software enterprises will address their customers' needs.
Re:This is pricing strategy. by Moridineas · 2004-02-01 23:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

Not to contradict any of your points, but ultimately the Indian president isn't _that_ powerful. Kalam is very interesting as the first Muslim president of India, and a major player in the development of the bomb! Beyond that, he is interesting as a muslim, he is a golden boy of the BJP, and they are in fact responsible for his election. Kalam is in short the type of Muslim that the BJP likes--secular, known to have read the Ghitas, etc. An interesting character!
Re:This is pricing strategy. by jkrise · 2004-02-01 23:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

One other person says that Dr.Kalam is a Jesuit Alumni and now you say he's a Muslim - I say, what does it matter? Software has no religion, neither does democracy - so when the head of a democratic setup makes a decision on the type of software that would be most suited for his country, his religion should have zero-relevance.

Secondly, he was not the first choice of the BJP, in fact the then vice-president was a hard-core BJP man, but was rejected by Mr.Chandrababu Naidu, who propped up Dr.Kalam's candidature. Incidentally, Mr.Naidu is Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh, where Microsoft has it's biggest Indian-operations center - they wrote the SFU and the command shell with .Net elements over there.

To sum up, the religious background or acadmeic record of most people in India has little relevance in a multi-culturous environment.

-

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Re:This is pricing strategy. by Moridineas · 2004-02-01 23:39 · Score: 3, Interesting

One other person says that Dr.Kalam is a Jesuit Alumni and now you say he's a Muslim - I say, what does it matter? Software has no religion, neither does democracy - so when the head of a democratic setup makes a decision on the type of software that would be most suited for his country, his religion should have zero-relevance.

Being educated at a Jesuit school (which he may or may not have--I don't know) doesn't necessarily make one a Jesuit, a Catholic, or even a Christian. Especially in India and Africa, the educated elite even today often come from religious schools set up by colonial European powers. IIRC, Abdul Kalam is from Tamil Nadu, and the Jesuits did have signifigant influence in the South. Incidentally, he's not the "Head of a democratic" setup--the Indian president is simply not that powerful--and that was my prime point--he's much more of a figurehead than anything else.

Braindrain by G3ckoG33k · 2004-02-01 20:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

Possibly, with GPL, India may be turning the braindrain the other way round. You often need somewhat mature code to play with in the beginning of your career, and, after all, there are hundreds of sourceforge/freshmeat projects which need to be better maintained.

Was Richard in need of a job? by ryen · 2004-02-01 20:38 · Score: 4, Funny

Hi, Thank you for calling Dell technical support. My name is Richard. How may I help you?

President not head of government by JoshuaDFranklin · 2004-02-01 20:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Before everyone gets confused, India has a parliamentary system of government so the President is not the head of the government. There are more details from the WikiPedia entry on India.

That is not to say Kalam isn't important, just that he mostly just gives speeches, not makes decisions.

Re:President not head of government by jkrise · 2004-02-01 20:59 · Score: 5, Informative

Although this is true, it is also to be remembered that the Preisdent of India is highly respected in technical and defence circles. As such, his views and leanings have a lot of bearing on the political decision-making process.

While launching the IIIT in Pune, the President made a pointed reference to his meeting with Mr. Gates, and made some brilliant points in exhorting the local IT community to further the cause of Free and Open Source software.

India is indeed fortunate to have such an eminently qualified person at the apex seat, since IT is synonymous with national security these days....

-

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Maybe.. by xzap · 2004-02-01 20:44 · Score: 4, Funny

the President gave him some tips on what shampoo to use..after all both the President and Stallman a long long mane ;)

Power Shift by cybermint · 2004-02-01 20:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

India's tech is booming. Japan has all the cutting edge electronics and technologies. China is destined to be the next super power. Korea is trying to get nukes. The USA has mad cow disease, a puppet for a president, a huge debt, a slow economy and we're spending billions more on rebuilding a country that we destroyed while looking for weapons that didn't exist. Times are changing. Maybe considering India as a future isn't such a bad idea.

Re:Power Shift by justin_speers · 2004-02-01 22:59 · Score: 4, Informative

India's tech is booming

The U.S. still imports way more jobs than it imports, and India's tech is booming based solely on the fact that it is low cost. Try reading some alternative viewpoints on the outsourcing subject.

Japan has all the cutting edge electronics and techonologies
And those Japanese companies also create a lot of jobs in the U.S., and the Japanese economy isn't doing so hot. Your point?

China is destined to be the next super power
With no economic freedom and the vast majority of it's citizens living in horrid poverty, I doubt it.

Korea is trying to get nukes
NORTH Korea already has them.

The USA has mad cow disease, a puppet for a president, a huge debt, a slow economy and we're spending billions more on rebuilding a country that we destroyed while looking for weapons that didn't exist.

Slow economy? I'm seeing growth right now, what are you talking about? It was slow a year ago, times are changing... mad cow disease gets a big "so what" from me, it's more paranoia than reality, it does more damage to the beef industry than the general population. And a puppet for a President? Watch this "puppet" obliterate John Kerry in the next election.

It's really lame his editorializing was so lacking in any substance, and yet modded up as insightful.

Hope Stallman is not too late by romit_icarus · 2004-02-01 20:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

Gates has been marketing to India for years. His visits to India are very high profile.

Gates' view towards india is simple: Get the 15% of developers to use MS, and that'll provide the basis for MS.

Interestingly, unlike in the rest of asia, software piracy is never an issue with MS although software piracy is rampant...

Freedom? Beer? by miknight · 2004-02-01 20:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

"which in keeping with the FOSS movement guru's philosophy is available free of cost."

I wasn't aware that this was part of the philosophy.

Predident has a history of Linux support by leoaugust · 2004-02-01 20:55 · Score: 5, Informative

The Indian President is tech-savvy and has on earlier occasions tried to promote Linux. He was really a rocket scientist before he was appointed the President.

In May 2003, he gave a speech in which he said "said it is 'unfortunate' that proprietary software - such as Windows - is so popular and has called for broader adoption of open source products." More details here - ZDNet UK - News - Indian President adds salt to MS wounds

From the article, notes on a conversation with Bill Gates:

President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam recounted a conversation earlier this year with Microsoft chairman Bill Gates. "We were discussing the future challenges in information technology, including the issues related to software security," Kalam said, according to a transcript of the speech. "I made a point that we look for open-source codes so that we can easily introduce the users built security algorithms. Our discussions became difficult, since our views were different."

--
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies ...

He's gotten much better the last few years by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-01 20:56 · Score: 3, Informative

Enough of his friends must have yelled at him about it, but over the last 5 years when I've seen RMS, he's almost always had clean hair (or been-on-airplanes-too-long hair), and clean clothes.

POI's website by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-01 20:59 · Score: 5, Informative

Dr.Kalam's website at http://presidentofindia.nic.in/ , runs on Linux and Apache . Undoubtedly one of the most qualified persons for the job, he headed India's defence research body, the DRDO and was one of the key members of the team planning and implementing India's second round of nuclear tests in 1998 (India tested its first nuclear device in 1974).
Also a bachelor like India's executive head,the Prime Minister.

Re:POI's website by zungu · 2004-02-01 23:07 · Score: 4, Informative

Also, he is a qualified Aeronautical engineer. He is the key architect of India's rocket launching capabilities. Also, an erudite poet and musician. Keeps his hair long and wears informal blue shirts most of the time. Spends time talking to school kids on all his visits. Cool guy, in short.
Re:POI's website by zungu · 2004-02-02 01:49 · Score: 3, Interesting

I disagree. APJ Kalam, the president did not decide whether to create the Indian Nuclear program or even support it. Most of his career he worked in launch vehicles for civilian satellite launching. Yes, he did work on missiles, but then they are not WMDs. And what is this WMD distate about? Western powers can have WMDs but not India? You cannot even say that India is an irresponsible rogue state and hence cannot have Nuclear weapons. India is 1/6th of humanity on earth, and a responsible democracy for last 50 years. When surrounded by China and Pakistan, there are few options for such countries. If you live in western country go ahead and tell your government to dump all its WMDs.

Interesting use of contextual example by SuperKendall · 2004-02-01 21:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

I found this section interesting:

Besides explaining the political philosophy of FOSS movement, Dr. Stallman said he also spoke to the President about the real intention behind Microsoft's plan to spread the use of computers in schools which was "akin to the colonial system of recruiting the local elite to help keep others in line.''

Nothing like digging up the ghosts of the past to help sell an idea! It seemed a smart analogy to me.

Perhaps someone should speak to the congress about Free Software in these terms - "Free software is like allowing your colony/company the independence to rule as it likes, instead of all your money being shipped to an uncaring vendor/government far away from the day-to-day concerns of your operation yet supposedly providing you relevant services to the work at hand."

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Excellent timing. by pjbass · 2004-02-01 21:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

I have to say that this is kinda interesting and rather comforting to hear the Indian government's interest in the idealogies of open source, ala RMS. I work for a rather large corporation in the US that makes lots of processors, and the going jokes always involve something with our jobs migrating to India. In any case, it'd be nice to see that open source is embraced there. They have some excellent programmers (who work something like 16-20 hours a day) who, if applied to open source, could really contribute to the movement. Aligned with the fact that Bangalore recently surpassed Silicon Valley with the greatest number of technology jobs, let's just hope those jobs are working on the things that will benefit the OSDN.

All I have to say is by kurosawdust · 2004-02-01 21:05 · Score: 5, Funny

If this means the addition of a sitar track in "The Free Software Song", I'm all for it.

Synopsis by illuminata · 2004-02-01 21:09 · Score: 3, Informative

Stallman basically told the the president of India that they could have and distribute programmers for free, rather than have to pay for some evil, greedy programmers who won't even show you their goods. Stallman's programmers come from all around the world and are completely open. His only requirement is that the terms of their release and distribution be kept in their chest pocket, and that the president give them credit if he modifies them in any way.

--

Until Slashdot fixes the funny modifier, use insightful or interesting. The poster knows your intentions.

Pay the man by olman · 2004-02-01 21:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm sure Indian programmers are just falling all over themselves to produce software for no pay. Ditto for Indian software companies. Now if you mean Free as in "Open", you might be talking business..

What is the *source* of the "RMS" controversy? by LibrePensador · 2004-02-01 21:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

A very old proverb says that "it's hard to be a prophet in one's own land."

For some reason, Richard Stallman is demonized in the US as some eccentric loony. Yet the rest of the world actually holds him in very high regard. I have had the fortune of listening to him speak on the issue of software patents and not only was he articulate but he was able to appeal to a large audience made up of people from all walks of life.

Even if you disagree with specific positions that RMS might take, you have to give the guy credit for standing his ground. To me the GPL is one of the cornerstones of the free software movement and its cultural and social implications will reverberate for generations.

--
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software

Re:What is the *source* of the "RMS" controversy? by nathanh · 2004-02-01 23:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

For some reason, Richard Stallman is demonized in the US as some eccentric loony. Yet the rest of the world actually holds him in very high regard. I have had the fortune of listening to him speak on the issue of software patents and not only was he articulate but he was able to appeal to a large audience made up of people from all walks of life.

He is fairly eccentric. I've met him twice and he's... uhh... he could do with a visit from the Queer Eye TV show.
However I suspect the real reason that he's considered a "loony" in the USA is because he doesn't bow to the almighty dollar. I'm not trolling. Americans seem overly concerned about money. Notice that one of the first things an American asks after learning about free software is "how will programmers get paid?" No thoughts about how it can help less fortunate countries, or less fortunate districts within America. No thoughts about how sharing software would lead to advancements in software because programmers will be freed up to work on new and exciting things. No thoughts about advancing science or technology for the benefit of mankind. Not even thinking that maybe these hobbyists write free software because they want to! An American's primary cause for concern is "where's the personal financial gain?"
I think this is because USA punishes people without money. If you don't make lots of money you live on the streets. There is no socialism. No "safety net" if you lose your job. It's shameful for an American to be without money. Success is tied with being rich. Poor people are "losers". That makes it hard for an American to get past the "no cost" aspect of Free Software and start to understand the freedom aspects.
I'm not saying money is unimportant. But RMS sees a balance between money and sharing. Between proprietary interests and the public interest. He tries to communicate that software is not just about technology and "innovation". It's also about political and social improvement. America rewards financial success, not social improvement, and I think that's really sad.
NB: And I'm not saying that Americans only think about money, or that no other culture has similar disdain for slackabouts, or that no other culture pursues financial success as a means of evaluating worth. I'm just saying that it's more exaggerated in Americans. That's just my ignorant opinion (I've never lived in America) but I suspect my ignorant opinion is not unique and not far off the mark.
Re:What is the *source* of the "RMS" controversy? by caudron · 2004-02-02 02:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's shameful for an American to be without money. Success is tied with being rich. Poor people are "losers".

I get what you are saying, but as an American, I feel the need to clarify your point.

Americans have a strong drive to succeed. We have a drive to compete with ourselves. It's the basis of what we call the "American Dream" (to become strong and independent). As a society, we embrace the ideal of constant self-improvement. We strive for one goal: Self-Sustenance.

It's not that we look down on people who are poor. Almost every American you ask will agree that a person isn't less of a person for being poorer than another. No, our real issue is with people who cannot live in a reasonably (note I did not say fully) self-sustaining manner. We do look down on people who /need/ handouts and who otherwise appear capable. We, as a society, don't begrudge people who cannot be self-sustaining, like children, some elderly, or the sick, as evidenced by our social programs to help those people. But our other social programs, like unemployment checks, welfare, and the such are time-limited.

We firmly stand by our conviction that if you can become more self-sustaining, then you should.

So you see, it isn't money which drives us. Money is just one way of many to gain a measure of self-sustenance. It's the desire to minimize our external dependencies. You can be dirt-poor in America, but grow your own food and manage your own needs and we will only admire you. Likewise, you can be filthy-rich in America but constantly seek government grants and the such ans we will despise you. This has it's own ancillary set of problems, but they are different from those that we would have if money were our obsession.

I'm not making a judgement here as to whether that's better or worse than what you claimed, but rather just clarifying for you the real pathos of the American Dream.

--
-Tom

Re:They all do that. by civad · 2004-02-01 21:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

How is that interesting? In case you don't know, every politician does that or is prepared by advisors before plunging into any meeting. Or is that interesting because he usually does not do that? Maybe he needs someone like Condoleezza Rice to chew and spit the stuff to him, so he can better use his time....

How many times has Mr. Stallman met Mr. Bush? How much time did the latter spend to prepare for the meeting? What is the outlook of the US Govt. towards Open Source movement?

I am assuming you are in teh US, since you seem to be so ignorant about the importance of what the President of India did.

A few things about India by arvindn · 2004-02-01 22:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

India is more left leaning on the "Free software" vs. "open source" question than the US. One reason is definitely the colonial past.

Communism is not a bad word here. In fact there are a couple of states which have had communist governments for much of their existence. Naturally this contributes to linux's popularity. Now don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that the idea of sharing appeals to communists.

Our president is a cool guy. As someone already pointed out, the president is not a political figure in India. But Kalam is a respected person and gives a lot of speeches and many people listen to him etc.

Linux usage in India is definitely rather high. The obvious reason is that there are more programmers ==> more nerds etc. But its far from the only reason. Even though unauthorized copying (I won't use the p-word) is very prevalent, those buying a branded PC will still have to pay for Windows. This is a big factor in the cost conscious Indian market. So in the last 8 months, the number of OEMs pre-loading linux has exploded. Today half the PC ads I see in the paper are MS-free! I can also feel the change at the grassroots level -- neighbors, tech support etc.

The future looks bright.

India on the ball by 0x0d0a · 2004-02-01 22:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

You know, India's president is an engineering PhD. We have George Bush, a C student who had his wealthy family get him his position.

India puts a good deal of emphasis on producing engineers. Surprise -- India is improving its lot at a stunning rate.

Plenty of things are wrong with India, but we could take a lesson from it as well.

--
May we never see th

Re:Whew! Forty whole minutes, eh!? by deitel99 · 2004-02-01 22:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

What can you say or do in a forty minute long meeting? Why on earth would such a thing be news worthy, and get a reportage in any "Times", or on Slashdot? What astonishingly desperate personality culting is Slashdot pursuing today?

And how many minutes have you had with the Indian president? Considering how busy the man is (as any president will be) I think it is an important sign of how well OSS is doing now. This is important news for a site which claims "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters".

The fact that he even downloaded Stallmans biography ("Free as in Freedom" - which sounds more like a political manifesto to me) means that he devoted even more time to his guest. This is a sign of how serious the Indian President takes OSS.

Re:Jesuit Alumni by jkrise · 2004-02-01 22:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

To say that Dr. Kalam's thinking is influenced by his college days is too simplistic. The Indian landscape is home to multiple religions, faiths and beliefs, much like the GNU/Linux world where several strnds and flavours exist.

His belonging to one particular strand at one particular point in time does not have any bearing to his thought-process at all. Most Indian political leaders have often advocated tolerance and respect to diversity, and believe that true freedom implies shunning mono-cultures.

In short, moving from a particular brand of proprietary code (Microsoft) to a particular model of Linux (say GNU) isn't good for any country let alone India. Dr.Kalam seems to have understood this fact more clearly than most other heads - be they political, religious or ideological.

-

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Heriditary heads of government by pommiekiwifruit · 2004-02-01 23:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

USA isn't the only country with a tradition of a heriditery head of state who retains power. India had Nehru/Indira/Ranjiv/Sonja. Pakistan had the Bhuttos.

Perhaps they should both go down the european route of letting the "first family" have a ceremonial role (the Bushes and the Kennedys could share the duties in the USA) and letting commoners be elected to the executive jobs.

stop calling them Indians! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-01 23:11 · Score: 5, Funny

They are Native Americans!

Re:Just a short little question by pandrijeczko · 2004-02-01 23:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

Everyone seems so willing to make the argument other countries should not rely so much on foreign (American) software.

If you believe this then you're missing the point entirely. The backlash is not against "American software", it's against being locked into proprietary code and proprietary protocols.
The fact that MS believe only in the proprietary model means that they are the focus of the backlash a lot of the time - however, traditional Unix vendors like SCO and Sun are also targets of much criticism by the Open Source community.

Wouldn't that mean the loss of more American tech jobs? Aren't those lines of thinking in conflict?

Tech jobs will go to India purely because it's cheaper to hire a techie in India rather than the US or Europe. A company's decision to do that is based purely on profit and it's irrelevant whether the techies support Windows, Linux, etc.

Or is it okay to lose tech jobs, as long as those jobs are Microsoft's, and somehow that won't affect other tech jobs.???

No, it's not alright for just MS to lose jobs but please remember that it's the company's own decision to lay off its workforce, not some external factor.
I'm a firm believer in goverment taxation of profits for companies that outsource jobs outside of countries where they do the most business.
As far as I am concerned, if a company makes money in a particular country, then it has an obligation to not just take money out of that country but put something back into it like jobs and livelihoods - i.e. it should be made more expensive to outsource jobs to another country due to taxation of profits.

--
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.

Re:Restrictive? by pe1rxq · 2004-02-01 23:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

Suppose you are developping a big application and are using a single GPL'd function or a single line of GPL'd code....
In that case you have the following possibilities:

- You are just plain lazy. You have the resources to write or have written a large chunk of code and could have written that last line/function as well.
Having to obey the license is just the price for your lazieness.

- The GPL'd code is just brilliant and it would have cost you a lot to replicate it. In that case that line/function ceases to be just a line or just a function but becomes an important part of your program. Having to obey the license is the price for saving you a lot of work.

There simply is no excuse for using someone elses work and not respecting the license they chose.
If you don't like the license don't use the code.

Jeroen

--
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/

GNU/India by freedom_leffo · 2004-02-01 23:57 · Score: 4, Funny

In other news, the Indian president announced that they'll from now on will go by the name GNU/India.

Re:Restrictive? by abe+ferlman · 2004-02-02 00:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Um, insightful? wake up modkids.

Yes, it is restrictive. "Share and share alike" is all very well. "Use a single GPL'd function and have to give away my entire source base" is another matter.

In capitalism, the seller sets the price and the buyer decides whether it's worth it. What are you, some kind of kooky communist? Don't use the GPL'd stuff if you don't want to pay for it, don't use Visual Studio if you don't want to pay for it.

In addition, it's not a zero sum game, so if I "steal" some of your GPL'd code, you still have it, so you have no grounds to bitch about me making it proprietary.

If you make it proprietary, I don't have the legal right to it anymore; nor does anyone else. That's the sense of "having it" that's important. Idea monopolies artificially raise the price of information.

The GPL has its good points, but to say it's not restrictive is to ignore reality.

You warty troll. The GPL has but one restriction- don't use GPL'd software in the creation of proprietary software. This restriction has special network effects: it reduces the freedom of any one party from reducing the freedom of everyone else. The GPL only restricts restrictions, that's a net gain for "unrestricted" software.

--
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...

President moved from Windows to Linux by jayan · 2004-02-02 01:10 · Score: 4, Informative

(Offtopic)
According to netcraft (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.pre sidentofindia.nic.in) President's website was running MS windows sometime back. Now that runs on Linux.
Good work.

Re:Restrictive? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-02 01:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's definitely a possibility, but people often seem to charge ridiculous amounts.

Most software isn't free as in beer. You have a choice of how to pay for it. Will you pay in money or in source code? That's the proprietary / GPL difference.

it's a bit annoying considering everyone else is getting it for nothing.

They aren't. They're paying in source code. You can pay in source code too, if you like. Or you can just not use the GPL library.

I really don't understand your problem. You seem to think that because you can read the source code of a GPL library, and download it and link it to your program without paying a penny, that you should somehow have the "right" to do whatever you like with it.

Here's a clue: the GPL is not taking away your freedom to use that library - it is giving you the freedom to use that library, if you agree not to take that freedom away from anyone else.

Maybe you should be thanking the authors for making it possible for those who can't afford huge license fees to write software, instead of cursing them for preventing you from charging huge license fees for their software.

Re:Restrictive? by abe+ferlman · 2004-02-02 01:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Me? A communist? We're in a discussion about RMS, and I'm siding slightly against the GPL, and I'm a communist? Interesting.

This is a common misconception. Look, just because someone dresses like a hippy doesn't mean they're a communist. Stallman is the ultimate capitalist, he thinks the market should set the price of ideas without the government creating monopolies in that space. You tell me what part of Stallman's philosophy (rather than his appearance) is anything but capitalist and we'll have a discussion.

Eh? What? You still have your original code. If I make changes to that code

That's not what you originally said, you said if you steal the code, not if you make modifications to it.

I'm more than happy to send you a patch. As for the rest of my code, you never had any right to that, and you still don't, so you haven't lost anything.

I've lost the right to write the same code, especially if you've patented your enhancements. But even if you're just copyrighting your code, you can probably draw a free software developer into a legal battle she can not afford even if she's right.

Furthermore, your proprietary innovation reduces the incentive to create free enhancements. If authors do have the right to control their works (i.e., if idea monopolies are legitimate), then you should respect my terms. I personally do not want to see someone profit off of my free work without giving back equally.

Imagine I bequeath a free library to the public with the condition that it can never sell books, only lend them. You build a bookstore annex on my public library and make deals with the book industry so that you'll get enough copies of all the new releases to sell, but the library can't buy enough to meet lending demand. You've done something very ugly. You've unfairly (although not illegally) capitalized on the goodwill that the bookstore created by making it harder for the free book community to thrive.

You may not agree with me that this would be a bad thing. But if I build that library with my own labor you ought to respect my wishes if you expect me to respect yours.

People who say the GPL is restrictive seem to imagine that there's only one person in the world, and it's always themselves. "The GPL unfairly restricts my ability to profit off of your work." Waaah.

--
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...

MOD PARENT UP by Christopher+Whitt · 2004-02-02 02:16 · Score: 3, Insightful

For those who read at thresholds above 0 and missed the AC reply, here's an editorialized summary.

quoeth the OP: "I'm not saying sharing stuff is bad, I just want it to be fair" and "'Use a single GPL'd function and have to give away my entire source base' is another matter."

The AC in response hits the nail on the head: Here's a clue: the GPL is not taking away your freedom to use that library - it is giving you the freedom to use that library, if you agree not to take that freedom away from anyone else.

The single GPL function or library - that the OP wants to include in the large, hugely valuable pre-existing codebase - is copyrighted. It belongs to somebody else, until it passes into the public domain.

Other people use it for a price: they pay by agreeing to share any further modifications of it. So GPL software is rarely free as in beer. But that's not the point.

Again the OP "In addition, it's not a zero sum game, so if I 'steal' some of your GPL'd code, you still have it, so you have no grounds to bitch about me making it proprietary." ... but you can take the code, add some additional functionality that is highly desired, keep the new source code a secret and profit from it. Perhaps even profit at the expense of the original authors, whose hard work you relied upon to enable your profitable enterprise. Why is preventing that wrong?

Again the parent AC's response is right on target: "You seem to think that because you can read the source code of a GPL library, and download it and link it to your program without paying a penny, that you should somehow have the "right" to do whatever you like with it."

--
Mozilla

TCPA Pricing Goes Further by 4of12 · 2004-02-02 02:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

Otherwise they wouldn't have been forced to drastically lower the price of their offering.

That Microsoft is even able to change the price of their product so easily is a consequence of their monopoly control of the market.

Recall Thailand's Linux laptop project motivated MS to cut prices there. Needless to say, those kinds of prices were not available to buyers of Windows and Office in North America, Europe and Japan.

Probably one of the most overlooked aspects Microsoft's so-called Trusted Computing initiative (most people in this forum are afraid The Man will spy on them, erase their MP3's and make their old Word documents unreadable unless they keep current their Office subscription payments) is that by targeting contracts with defined individuals and machines, the commodity nature of its products is lessened (the software CD becomes non-transferrable)and it becomes even more feasible to discriminate in pricing than it is now.

Expect this development.

Having essentially conquered the market for desktop software Microsoft has to look at other alternatives for growth, which is what their shareholders demand.

But it is hard for Microsoft to grow now! Entering new markets is difficult for them because their actions will be scrutinized for unfair leveraging of their monopoly position. The remaining alternative is to adjust pricing to maximize revenue; get from each user what they can.

Thus, they might well charge a few rupees for their OS in India and hundreds of dollars for the same product in a large corporate environment in the United States.

With TCPA Windows, there will be no danger of the Indian licensee re-selling their copy of Windows to someone in the United States. Not only will such resale be "illegal", but it will become technically much less feasible than it is now.

--
"Provided by the management for your protection."

geez by msouth · 2004-02-02 02:44 · Score: 3, Funny

first our jobs, now our free software guru...

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Liberty uber alles.

Kalam, Stallman discuss open source software by bfg9000 · 2004-02-02 03:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

"Kalam, Stallman discuss open source software"....

I'm pretty sure Stallman was talking about Free Software rather than Open Source Software....

--

I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."

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