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Wind River Partners With Red Hat On Embedded Linux
An anonymous reader writes "According to LinuxDevices: 'Calling embedded Linux and VxWorks 'the standards in device software development,' Wind River today announced a dual operating system strategy that adds a newly developed embedded Linux distribution -- Red Hat Embedded Linux -- alongside its proprietary VxWorks real-time operating system.'"
So RedHat has dropped the desktop, is moving into the enterprise and now the embedded market? Where can it go next?
Rus
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What happened to BSD? It wasn't that long ago that Wind River announced that BSD was the wave of the future.
It's just not the same now that they ditched us desktop Linux users.
Now their main business is selling overpriced licenses for their "enterprise" Linux distribution, which really isn't all that much more bulletproof than most Linux kernels/applications out there.
Sure, I love Linux, but I think the tides may turn away from Red Hat. Gentoo anyone?
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
I suspect that Linux's file system is a bit more robust than what they used on the rovers.
I used to run Red Hat 9. Then they basically gave the finger to me as a long-time user (since the 3/4/5 releases) and said "Find something else."
Sure, there's Fedora, but it's just not the same.
I've since moved on to Gnome/Gentoo.
Apart from ease of porting preexisting applications, does embedded Linux have any advantages whatsoever over say QNX or TRON?
Do you even know what you are talking about?
Wind River and Red Hat are both software companies. The Ergo Audrey was made my 3Com a number of years ago and was very quickly discontinued.
In addition, the OS that the Audrey runs is QNX, which has nothing to do with either Wind River or Red Hat.
-- Fighting mediocrity one bad post at a time.
1. Make 'standard' Linux Distro available cheaply 2. ? 3. Charge loads more for it 4. Profit!
Do you even know what you're talking about? Wind River and Red Hat are both software companies. The Ergo Audrey was made my 3Com a number of years ago and was very quickly discontinued.
No, that's why I asked a question. I thought that perhaps the Audrey hardware runs some kind of software.
Linux: Free if your time is worthless.
My boss likes to say things about "The Standards". In her worldview, anything is the best choice for any given situation if it's "The Industry Standard". That phrase is practically sacred to her. The only reason we're not running Windows (her favourite OS) on our servers is because in her perception, "The Industry Standard" for large Web sites is Solaris on SPARC hardware. But the instant her businessperson friends start saying how wonderful Win2K3 on Compaq servers is, she'll probably be listing our Sun Enterprise servers on eBay...
After so many years in the tech field, I'm starting to get really really wary of people who say such glowing things about "The Standards". It seems to be a thinly-veiled way of saying "What Everybody Else Is Doing". In the 1800s, "The Standard" way of life for a wealthy white Southerner in the US would include the ownership of slaves. And "The Standard" in industrialised Western nations was, of course, for women (and blacks) to not have the right to vote.
The point of my little screed is-- if the best defence a company has for their products/services/actions/lack of actions is that they are "the standard"... well, it either shows a severe lack of imagination, or an adherence to "this is today's fad; tomorrow, the fad may be different" mentality. The same sort of mentality that hardcore gamers demonstrate, when one year they get the WhizBang(R) CyberWhatever(TM) 3000 AGP card with 128MB of RAM and are all "wow, look at me", and the next year, they wouldn't be caught dead with anything less than a WhizBang(R) CyberWhatever(TM) Pro 5000 AGP card with 256MB of RAM... Because, I mean, the Pro 5000 is "The Standard" now, and anyone with less is "obviously a limpdicked little fagot" (sic). (End sarcasm)...
Companies that speak of "The Standard", to me, reek of rat-race-ism, and-- to be frank-- of pure faddishness. Remember: "The Standard" == "What everyone else is doing". And "everyone else" is running Windows on their x86 hardware, and we all know how sterling an example of quality engineering either of those things are... (no flames, please)
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
First they "acquired" Slackware. And then sold it off/gave it away after doing nothing with it. Then they "acquired" BSD and have done little with it. Now they have linked up with RedHat for embedded Linux tools?
When WindRiver Systems (WRS) came in several years ago to give a presentation on their strategies for Tornado and VxWorks products we were disappointed. After two hours of the pain and agony of learning nothing we didn't already know, we asked "where's the beef"? (old expression, but I think you "get it") They told us their entire strategy was to become a $1BILLION company inside of a year. Some strategy, eh?
Our experience is that WRS provides marginal support on the VxWorks products, and have made a mess of their licensing systems and servers (that track tools use and enforce their payment structures). Let's hope WRS doesn't take away from the strength of the Open Source community, the tools development it undertakes, and the great support it gives...
Since Wind River's site apparently runs on an embedded platform, you can read about Red Hat and Wind River Partner to Develop Linux Based Solution for Device Software Optimization from Red Hat's site instead.
In the past 5 r so years, Wind River has announce grand "startegic aliances" with everyone (with the possible exception of M$) that has ahd there 30 seconds of fame. I even rember back whne they sold a C compiler for various early *NIX machines on teh 70's. I suppose they do OK, but they are certainly not great "geussers of teh future direction" of things!
nix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity. (Dennis Ritchie) ~
Here are the things that WR ships when you go to use VxWorks for your embedded system project:
Components Included
Development tools:
TORNADO Integrated Development Environment
GNU and DIAB C/C++ Compilers
WIND VIEW system analyzer
SNiFF+ PRO code visualization tool
Full VxSim
TORNADO BSP DEVELOPER'S KIT
Runtime Components:
VxWorks embedded RTOS
TrueFFS flash file system
VxFusion
VxVMI
VxMP
So, how far does Linux have to come to match these tools?
They've got lots of crappy, overpriced proprietary software, and to boot they've tried stealing as much from Open Source software as they could get away with. I look forward to seeing them actually contribute something to the community, but I'm not holding my breath. I suspect they'll be like many of the other big names in the embedded space, who are mostly trying to tie people into their own platforms. I am pleased that I can finally tell the snooty VxWorks developers whom I've argued with over the years "I told you so", though. :)
And "everyone else" is running Windows on their x86 hardware, and we all know how sterling an example of quality engineering either of those things are... (no flames, please)
Dude, look around. You see any flames coming your way here?
The coolest voice ever.
I don't think so. BSDi acquired Walnut Creek, who maintained both Slackware and FreeBSD. BSDi wasn't interested in Slackware and got rid of it. Later, Wind River acquired BSDi.
They told us their entire strategy was to become a $1BILLION company inside of a year
When did Dr Evil acquire them? I must've missed the memo...
it's oriented towards protected address spaces for each process, unlike vxWorks
the next version of vxworks has protected memory space as an option (along with other things more like traditional Unix processes, as opposed to traditional vxworks tasks). If you're on their beta program, you already can make them.
Probably this version will be released before the dual-OS-with-RH version, or at the same time.
It was Wind River that didn't want Slackware. BSDi not only kept Slackware to the end, but Slackware was also briefly associated with ixSystems (the last bit of BSDi that remained after Wind River pillaged them, and still remains today I think).
It wouldn't surprise me if this deal is not the "step three profit" that Wind River expects. After that, maybe they'll go the SCO route and claim to own everything. I certainly wouldn't touch any code submissions from them with a ten-foot-pole.
Well my experience with Wind River was when they bought pSOS, they quickly terminated them as they were their biggest RTOS competitor at the time.
People say that Microsoft are anti competitive well Wind River certainly know how to destroy the competition.....don't be fooled by this Linux purchase Red Hat Embedded Linux will be disolved into VxWorks.
Wind River RTOS licenses cost the earth and their technical support isn't that great.
But, after reading Slashdot, they realized BSD was dying...
Anyone else wonder if this might have something to do with the problems with the Spirit rover that just happened to be running a VxWare OS?
Maybe the next rover will be running Red Hat Embedded Linux...
Maybe they should make a multi-booting rover. Win2k, a few flavors of Linux, and *BSD. They could boot into Windows to play solitaire on the rover during slow research days. The next rover should also have a nice speaker system on it, and should be able to stream MP3's from NASA to play... To keep the Aliens away from it like in Mars Attacks!... Would hate for it to get stolen and turned into a Little martion child's RC car like Solourner...
I used to do tech support for verizon DSL, and had a nightmare of a time with a PPPOE. I remember Wind River, and constant software glitches. If my 4 year old memmories are correct, then we're all doomed to unexpected device errors.
And heaven help you if you were foolish enough to base a product on VxWorks AE - they're short-lived product which tried to kludge virtual memory via regions. I imagine most were smart enough to avoid AE (why use a work-around when QNX, Linux, etc, provide the real thing), thus WRS has EOLed it. Presumably VxWorks 6.0 is moving to a real process model; but shouldn't it have been obvious from day 1 that this was the way to go?
" It's just not the same now that they ditched us desktop Linux users.
See subject title.
"Now their main business is selling overpriced licenses for their "enterprise" Linux distribution, which really isn't all that much more bulletproof than most Linux kernels/applications out there."
Overpriced as opposed to what? A free distro like debian with no real support?
"Sure, I love Linux, but I think the tides may turn away from Red Hat."
Who knows. But it isn't yet.
"Gentoo anyone?"
God no.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
"Partners"?
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PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
NASA, which used VxWorks for the current mars rovers Operating system, is investigating the use of linux for the new 2009 rover. I wonder these two things are linnked.
The Television Wiki
Oh, well forgive my ignorance then. I read this comment:
Does this mean that I'll finally have some hardware support for my Audrey [3rdmoon.com]?
and thought you were asking for hardware support from software companies. Damn, I must be really stupid for reading it that way.
As a tip, I wouldn't go calling up Red Hat or Microsoft or whoever when your motherboard fails. I'm sure they will give you the free f-you.
In any case, you won't be seeing any support from any companies for your discontinued product because none of them care. This is especially true of those companies who had nothing to do with the product in the first place.
That is all.
-- Fighting mediocrity one bad post at a time.
The jffs2 filesystem operates directly on
flash. You can use both NAND and NOR flash.
You can't directly use a block device with
jffs2; it's strictly designed for flash.
With jffs2 you get journalling, compression,
wear leveling, and full UNIX-like behavior.
Not that you couldn't use IDE flash on a
rover though; this has built-in wear leveling.
Seriously, though, the only strategy WIND has ever had has been to sell heinously overpriced VxWorks products. If they are touting Linux right now, it's only because they expect to be able to convert some portion of that Linux interest into sales of expensive proprietary software and tools.
The article asked what gain WIND could hope to see out of this move. To me, WIND's gain is obvious -- I'm not certain what Red Hat was thinking! This move is just as likely to backfire in their faces by tarring them with WIND's reputation as it is to generate new sales from the VxWorks crowd.
What makes you thing WRS is throwing in the towel on the proprietary nature of VxWorks? They could take some things out of Linux that might help performance or increase capability in some areas of VxWorks. I don't think they want to use the Linux kernal as a whole. Maybe they want to see if the can have TWO OSes to sell or maybe a hybrid. I don't suspect you'll see things coming out to the Open Source from WRS whatever they do with Linux, they are quite proprietary with their software. I once tried to get source for vxWorks (customer wanted it) many years ago. I recall the asking price was 50K plus run-time fees.
If you are a solid embedded engineer who REALLY knows how things work and not just a code slinger you can make vxWorks do some very nice things for you. But you have to be careful or you kill the OS and have to start over. The BSPs are very configurable if you know how the processor actually WORKS. Using VxWorks is not a job for the average programmer, you don't just hack it out and expect it to work. I have taken almost all of the classes they offer (not in the last 5 yrs thought) and found them to be well taught and service we had at a major defense company was excelllent. I could call up the local tech guy and get good answers. Of course YMMV on tech support as we are talking people here. I don't recall seeing Linux with drivers for VME bus and MIL-STD-1553 as VxWorks has. But maybe if Linux hits the embedded market someone will do that. I've not heard of anyone with a sour impression of VxWorks. Plus they HAVE managed to stay in business, if they were as bad as you imply I think as small as the market for embedded OSes is over the last 15yrs (it's getting bigger now) they would have gone under.
As for Tornado and the Debugger, I've seen much better IDEs. The tools were often much buggier than the BSPs and the OS. Unless they have improved since the last time I used them I think they were more in the way than helpful.WRS is pretty much the leader in embedded general purpose OSes. There are others that are better for specific purposes.
Oh, and this stuff about vendors tieing you to a platform..ever seen Windows run on anything but a X86 Architecture? If it works for Redmond you can bet everyone is going to try to emulate it in their market. Software vendors are a Monkey See Monkey do bunch with Microsoft as the head monkey.
Back to lurk mode...
Just remember to delete unnecessary files or you'll be stuck in a reboot loop.
This actually looks like a brilliant scheme. By the latest legal theories, each of the technologies that they aquire gives them ownership over that technology, its predecessors, its derivatives and everything that it influenced. It looks like they've already amassed an IP collection of SCOian proportions.
If they keep going at this rate, they'll soon be able to claim ownership of every computer program on the planet. We'll all have no choice but to pay up; it looks like WindRiver is going to have the last laugh.
Where do you get off saying they "stole" Open Source software? Do you seriously think that they are violating the GPL? Or are you just pissed that they are making money off of the GNU compiler and development tools? A lot of companies are, and are doing it legally. You must be with SCO.
Good attempt at backpedaling, but not good enough. Actually, no, it wasn't a good attempt at all.
The large company I work for recently dumped VxWorks for Linux. WR support wasn't just bad, it was positively sleazy. We begged them for help with a serious bug and they were completely unhelpful, dening any responsibility. When we finally were able to *prove* that the problem was theirs they admitted that it was a known problem!
Much of the current kit marketed as "embedded" has the performance of 5-7 year-old hardware but in a smaller form factor. Being able to apply some previous experience developing workstation and server applications without having to relearn a new api, toolchain, language, or sometimes all three, is a pretty good selling point.
I know it, along with licencing costs, sold my employer.
That said, sometimes the costs will outweigh the benefits and we have to look at the other options. (Unfortunately, it looks like the industry is headed for fewer and fewer options. Sigh.)
Yes, we've seen before the silly argument of "not dropping an old technology - we're adopting a new one" before. If you'll recall, SCO even spouted this nonsense at one time, when they abandoned Xenix for UNIX. In fact, they even used the exact same words. Xenix died shortly thereafter. :)
"Take things out of Linux"? Do you even know what you're talking about? You clearly aren't familiar with the GPL. Read up on it, and aquaint yourself with why they can't do this without risking opening up their entire source code.
I agree though, we won't see anything useful coming out of WRS.
"Solid embedded engineers" don't work with the crap from WRS. The technology in it is a joke; a poorly implemented mishmash of ideas the developers never fully understood.
"I've not heard of anyone with a sour impression of VxWorks". You are clearly mired in the ooze of WRS. I've never heard a anyone who actually understood OS's who had anything good to say of them.
Take the recent fiasco on Mars. That was such amateurish coding, it is beyond belief that anyone can defend it.
As for them staying in business, yes, so has Microsoft. Monopoly power does that, you know. WRS hasn't had much serious competition until lately. And now they are caving in to Linux. Their history has shown clearly that they've tried to resist it; and probably will continue to do so while the market passes them by.
This is great for the smaller vendors, who know the market better, and can seize the opportunity which WRS has unwittingly legitimized.
I hope WRS does try to tie people to a platform. Oddly enough, this doesn't seem to be successful in the Linux marketplace, where you have a greater choice of options.
A kernel hacker of average talent doesn't need WRS or anyone else. Monte Vista's past strategy (which WRS is trying to adopt) has failed, and MV knows this. They are changing, while WRS is trying to duplicate what has already failed. Clearly WRS doesn't know what it's getting into, and it looks like it is well-poised to shoot itself in the foot, while helping everyone else.
Please remain lurking in VxWorks land. You clearly have no understanding of what embedded Linux is about, or doing. And a few classes won't help correct that either.
If you are a solid embedded engineer who REALLY knows how things work and not just a code slinger you can make vxWorks do some very nice things for you.
Same is true for the Linux world. The same statement, exactly, can be made for Open Source development.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Good lord, this is the silliest post I've seen in a while. How in the world did it get marked Insightful?
Maybe the slashdot moderation system just plain sucks. Linux fanboys on crack.
Pretty much agree. The thing that would stop us moving to linux is the VME support and propietry drivers like redundant ethernet driver/. I am sure it could be done but would take time and effort with no certain reward.
The tool we would miss most is wind view. Its nice to setup a system running and then see what all the tasks had been doing while you are away
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
I just don't understand how Linux became such a power in embedded development. Its license doesn't lend itself well to the embedded environment. From my experience in embedded development, there is very little that can be turned around and be of benefit to the community, but we have to very carefully work on our embedded Linux systems so as not to violate the GPL.
My experience working on embedded systems based on BSD has been much better. And guess what got more code contributed back to it, BSD. With Linux we avoid tainting any GPL code so come up with work-arounds. With BSD we work directly with the code, this leads to better knowledge of the code, and better testing/re-use of the existing code which is more likely to generate bug fixes, performance fixes or enhancements that can be released back.
It just baffles me.
And clearly you are clueless.
If you were even slightly knowledgeable in this area, you'd remember the WRS VP who acknowledged that they had used some drivers from Linux in the press. He later tried to backpedal after it was pointed out that this was illegal.
God knows what else they are trying to clam up about. But clearly Linux is helping them.
I dont doubt it! I see so much crappy code written the last 5-7 yrs its disgusting. MS really set the standard low. Those of us who had to write software where someone's LIFE depended on it being RIGHT and the actions happening ON TIME not when ever the OS decides it like vxWorks. If you can make Linux become hard realtime then go for it. I do know the UNIX kernel and it's not structured for hard real time but maybe Linux is different. I wouldn't mind seeing an Open Source RTOS. There is no monopoly on ideas, WRS can't take the code out of Linux but they can take the concepts!
And blatently plugging my own
VMIC Linux BSP Although we ship the VMEbus driver as part of a board support package for our single board computers, the VMEbus driver is a seperate module. It should work on any Tundra Universe II based VME board and is distributed for free under BSD license.
a brief history of the quest for the RTOS dominance: * Wind River incorprated 1981 and produces a set of libraries that will become vxWorks. initially vxworks runs on top of other kernels, such as pSOS and VRTX RTOS kernels. in order to run vxWorks effectively, you had to also buy pSOS or VRTX kernels. * 1989: vxWorks finally has its own kernel, called WIND. pSOS and VRTX kernels no longer supported by vxWorks. this creates some problems with existing users. * 1991: pSOS creator Al Chao sells the company to ISI * 1995: VRTX is sold to Microtec, then later to mentor graphics * 1999: VRTX creator Jim Ready starts a company that sells linux to embedded realtime market, called Montavista. the product is called hard hat linux. * March 3, 2000: Wind River makes it official that pSOS will cease to exist after merger (take-over) with ISI. * April 5, 2001: Wind River: "... would want to emphasize that it's absolutely not Wind River's intention to contribute or, frankly, utilize code that's licensed under the GPL. We still have very strong opinions with regard to the GPL." Quotes are from this article.. * April 6, 2001: Wind River buys BSD/OS and hires BSDI and FreeBSD team members. Reference article here. BSD vs GPL licensing issues are at the core of the rationale behind the BSD move. Wind River: "... customers are afraid of GPL." * Dec, 2003: Wind River joins OSDL and embraces linux. * Feb, 2004: Wind River partners with Red Hat, to compete against Hard Hat. My prediction: the Realtime and embedded operating systems market will continue in several main areas: * hand-held and consumer electronics type applications : this is where many different OS vendors will compete, including Microsoft Windows CE, VxWorks, and various forms of Linux and other proprietary RTOS. * scientific and research community : traditionally vxWorks, but moving rapidly to almost completely Linux * military ( a big market for commercial RTOS vendors ) : vxWorks will dominate. some of the weapons vxWorks is used inside currently are: Military Aircraft: * C130AMP * Boeing 767 Tanker * EA-6B Prowler * E-2C Hawkeye Fighter Aircraft: * F22 Raptor * F18 Fighter Military Helicopters: * V-22 Transporter * Lockheed Martin AN/APR-48A * Superpuma EC225/725 Cruise Missiles: * Trident Missile Fire Control * Raytheon Tomahawk * Boeing AGM-84 Harpoon * Boeing AGM-86B * Raytheon Standard SM-2 * Raytheon AMRAAM Phase 3
normal_guy (676813)" No, that's why I asked a question. I thought that perhaps the Audrey hardware runs some kind of software."
;)
That's where you made your mistake, software runs the Audrey, not the other way around.