Slashdot Mirror
Computer Studies w/o Excessive Coding?
Peterus7 asks: "I'm a student at the University of Washington, and I was planning on majoring in Computer Science or Informatics until I took Computer science, and I'm realizing that it's simply beyond me. I grew up with computers, and naturally I want to study a field that involves a lot of interaction between people and technology (mainly computers), but the Intro to Java class I'm taking now is driving me over the edge. Any suggestions for a technologically intensive field that doesn't require ungodly amounts of coding, or perhaps any general methods for surviving computer science courses for new students?"
But most of the good ones require a CS degree.
And employers know this. CS programs are code intensive, beacuse they wan't to make sure you're capable of the type of logic they're looking for.
propz to GNAA
Repeat after me: "You want fries with that?"
My father is a blogger.
Most Big-Ten schools have renamed their EE dept. to be called "Electrical and Computer Engineering"
You could always try the EE route. Usually you need a few courses in intro. programming and maybe have to write some matlab code someday.
This sounds familier to me. I did a Computer Science degree in UCC (big Uni in Cork Ireland) and you would not believe the amount of people in my class who only realised what Computer Science was once they were in the course. A lot of them just wanted to 'do stuff with computers' and did not want to actually learn how to code, or build hardware etc. I guess the best example was when a class mate said to me - 'This class is stupid, we haven't even been thought how to use Windows or Excel'. I responded with: 'No, here we are meant to learn how to write the next Windows (O/S) or Excel (Applications). I finished the course in 1999 and got my Degree - and went into a job where no coding was required (Network Security). However I still find every Theory class useful. Example, I was on the Cisco Advanced Routing Course and the instructor was covering OSPF (a dynamic routing Protocol). He was of the opinion that no one could know what SPF was, but I knew this from my algoriths course in 3rd year. My advice to the poster is to understand what computer science is. If they want to do something with Systems and People, then a course like the BIS (Business Information Systems) course at UCC is useful. But if you really want to know the maths and theory of computers - I recommend Computer Science. Thanks Jay
I guess this is part of the reason why there are an excess of IT techs. Programming isn't as easy as many think.
/computer science graduate
In general (and based on observations of my CS classmates) I would say that unless you can program before you even start a computer science degree (even just working knowledge of Basic - or in this day and age, Python [IMHO, Perl is next to useless as a teaching language because it's a mess]) - you're probably wasting your time.
If you've been hacking on code since high school, you're probably fit in nicely.
i study cognitive science (specializing in computation and human-computer-interaction [hci]). this field is basically the abstraction of interactions but without doing hardcore programming.
i started out as computer science and engineering and didnt like how it pigeon-holed students. cognitive science is a great field involving computer science, neuroscience and psychology.
(MIT's media lab is a cogsci lab)
I am currently an EcE student at Purdue. Personally, i find the electrical sections of an ECE degree to be much harder than the programming elements, but thats just me. At least here, with a Computer engineering degree there is still a fair amount of programming that you have to do. 2 C courses, 1 course in ABEL (hardware programming), 1 Course in advanced data structure programming using C/C++, 1 Course in VHDL (integrated circuit design and programming), and those are just the ones ive gotten to. I believe there are a few more.
As far as a degree in computing without much programming you are probably going to have to look into IT administration or networking, I would think those routes would have less programming involved. Just ask an counselor at a school that provides these degrees.
I'm over in Sweden, and all I can say is that we've got the same problem here, for many people programming is the main stumbling block in their informatics studies. On the other hand, you can "get away" with very little programming here if you pick the right courses. Basically someone studying informatics at my uni only really has to learn and use programming for a total of maybe 10 weeks during the first semester, after that it's entirely possible to pick courses that don't include programming all the way to your degree. You do miss other good things that come in those courses though, so many people get stuck with more programming than they'd really like because other things in the same course are valuable. But I know this varies a lot between universities as well, around here we get a lot of science philosophy and similar stuff that people at more technically oriented unis are spared (no I didn't like it much at first :-).
Sorry, but you should learn something else. Really, if you don't take the time to learn programming (hey, be thankful it's Java and not LISP ;-) you should do something else.
I think it's extremely important to at least understand the basics of "how is software built". And learning a programming language is actually a lot easier than learning a real language, and you can learn both if just sit down and practice, gawddamnit !
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison
I took the masters program offered by the Bloomsburg University IIT. The program covered the use of modern multimedia tools and techniques (and some light programming) in conjuction with instructional design and task analysis.
There are quite a few other similar programs out there - be mindful that there is a whole track at other colleges focused simply on instructional design - thats not not as technical and tends to focus on academic issues regarding computers in education and CBT.
One of the most interesting things you can with this degree is get an Instructional Technology Specialist certificate. Then you are certified to direct technology operations for an entire school district. Now you're working with people!
If an Introduction to Java involves too much coding, perhaps this will never be the field you feel really happy in. There's a huge difference between liking computers and choosing to spend your life with them. You will spend almost a third of your life working so avoiding things that don't make you feel good is very important.
Why not take a little time to visit your university career guidance centre, do a few psychometric tests, chat with an adviser and see if there might be a career you are happier in?
1000s Warcraft Gold while you sleep
Don't just study computers, get a minor in CS and a major in something else... anything else... Computers and Business, Computers and Physics, Computers and Biology, Computers and Art, Computers and Theater... Computers and English.
Really. You need to diversify your investments, skill and monitary investments both. Diversification is the key. Find a niche market you can fill and fill it well. Computers and Video production... things like that. What are your other intrests? How do computers fail to help people in these areas? How can you improve the use of computers in these other fields? Do you know anyone who is in a special industry? Have you volunteered to do anything in the community? How can computers help them?
[signature]
Management Information Systems: you dont do shit but maybe VB, Fortran or some other equally worthless language. Of course, you're not exactly qualified to do anything either... Btw, my CS degree didnt require very much coding... it's mostly irrelavent theory, math, algorithms, and the occasional program. Coding is a monkey-skill, soon to be outsourced to India or made obsolete by better languages/engineering methods and higher-level scripting. Ideally, you should be able to write code w/o any redundant structures, algorithms, lines, etc. Look into Abstract Syntax/Semantic Languages, and Graph-based Programming.
The biggest trick the devil pulled was letting lawyers become politicians so they can write the laws.
You could study applied math, electrical engineering, computer engineering, cognitive science, human-computer interaction, psychology, etc. All of them involve high-tech and aspects of computer science, but they won't make you do lots of programming initially. However, when you actually work in them, it will be hard for you to avoid programming anyway, and you will be less prepared.
If you hate your intro CS course, chances are that the intro CS course is just poorly taught. And Java itself is a pretty questionable choice as an intro CS language in my opinion: it's tedious, it's sluggish, and has enormously complex libraries. It also is based on a very narrow view of what programming is and how people should build abstractions.
I'm not sure what you can do about that. Switching majors within your university is one choice. Switching universities might be another if you think that that kind of teaching is common at your university. Or you may just sit through this and hope that it improves. It depends on how much you are dedicated to CS. Your university may also treat this as a kind of hazing ritual, to weed out people who just aren't all that interested in CS after all.
One think you can do is have a look at the intro CS lectures at other universities and see how they compare (MIT's 6.001 is a good course to look at); maybe that would help you make up your mind whether you just dislike your course or whether you dislike the field.
Have you considered studying human factors (i.e. user interface design)? It's a small field, but when I've employed people for this they've really made a huge difference to the quality of my software. No coding is needed, but HTML is often required and it's sometimes useful to be able to craft a demo interface in a prototyping environment such as VB.
I'm taking a degree in Baking, but I don't like kneading dough. Can anyone suggest a university where I can get by the minimum amount of getting flour on my paws?
Hugs n Kisses
-Junis
A friend of mine in college got a Bachelor of Arts in Computer Science. Less math/programming. This was at University of North Texas between '85 and '90.
:)
Others opt for business Information Systems. Some programming, just for gits and shiggles, some design, blah blah. Benefit: be the boss of your arrogant techie friends...
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
And spend the extra time learning to code.
If it turns out you can't learn to code, stay away.
You are simply not a 'nerd'.
The latest Slashdot meme.
General Methods
Find buddies.
I'm not kidding. People to study with equals much faster learning. When I started uni (too long ago) I was doing a Comp Sci/Electronic Engineering double, and the workload was insane. Pretty quickly, everyone worked out pretty quickly that the only way to cope with the insane workloads was to work together.
I don't mean cheating either. It's just that it's like having a tutor, all the time. That should be your first port of call, and if you still can't do it, (not having at go at you) you should really look at a change of careers.
Hope that helped.
...I just remembered something from uni. Once you get the deal with OO the rest will suddenly click. It was like that for pretty much everyone in my course.
Keep in mind that there's a large difference between fixing Outlook Express for Grandma and the field of CS.
It's going to sound a little harsh, but if you want to futz with computers, go work for Best Buy or CompUSA in the repair department, or start your own PC repair shop. If you're looking for a more analytical field and enjoy both coding and higher-level math, CS is more your bag.
Don't mistake this for elitism -- someone who enjoys construction isn't necessarily an engineer, and someone who enjoys using computers and software isn't necessarily going to enjoy trying to design computers and software.
Also keep in mind that computer use is something that professionals depend upon more and more, so even if you choose a field which doesn't seem to relate to "computers", you'll probably end up staring at one for years to come anyways.
Good luck!
Somebody get that guy an ambulance!
Have you considered Political Science?
Web design. It requires little or no actually neuron activity. Don't forget the black turtle neck and wigger fro, oh yeah and you get to ride around the office on a razor scooter while sipping a latte.
... an in-depth knowledge of coding. (Continued from subject)
I decided at a young age that I was not going to code GUIs for a living, so I took up assembly language and now at the age of 20 I am overwhelmed with job offers doing malware analysis, vulnerability engineering, and software protection. I know plenty of people in those fields who either cannot code at all in any language other than assembly or can't write production code to save their lives. It's more common than you think.
Take the time and learn coding, though; it's one of the most intellectually satisfying things you can do IMO, when you're not coding GUIs in Java for an asshole teacher who spouts buzzwords. In fact, I failed such a course last semester.
SCO.
All you have to know how to do is file baseless lawsuits and blow a lot of hot air. Plus, if there is one thing we know for sure about SCO, it is that there is no programming going on.
Personnally I like to misquote an Oxford (UK) professor on items like this..
"An Universiry education is designed to make you THINK. A course is designed to make you think "
If you want to learn about computers then a Uni education is the best. It won't necessarilty teach you specific skills (Word, Excel, IOS etc) but will teach you how to understand the issues in a computing fashion.
I've seen lots of people who know alot about Excel, but because they haven't been taught the principles of programming, don't use 'names' when selecting areas for formula's etc. They just use the cell ranged (C1-C13). When you have to insert/delete a row, it quickly becomes a mess to update all the calculations.
OK so this is not the best example, but I think it proves the point. If you know the principles you can work the problem, rather then just knowing specific things.
If you're having trouble with the intro class, you're obviously not in the major yet. The intro class is a weeder class! You're soiling the good name of UW CSE!
Poser!
if you think java is too much for you, you're most probably in the wrong course.
If you're struggling with the first course of a CS program, don't worry, you're not alone. It sounds like the course is doing exactly what it's intended to do: cut down on those who just can't "hack it" (pun intended).
Infomatics is a fine major. Try Applied Math in addition and with some intensive networking you'll probably get a job offer or two in a few years.
Coding is very objective. The computer (not human) tells you whether your code is right or wrong. This is science - you can only be right or wrong, not a mixture of both.
If you want to study about human related things, then you need to study business, not science. There are a lot of information systems programmes out there for you to choose. They never require you to be proficient in coding.
I'm a current 3rd year computer science student, and I honestly believe that you will to do some coding to become deeply involved in computers, because you cant understand how something works, if u dont know its internals.
In fact, the period when u learn the most about computers is when u do computer architecture, where for me at least, we had to learn assembly language.
However, maybe by doing digital logic or something, u can be involved with computers, and only worry a bit about coding, but dont count on it too much.. I'm actually recommending at least basic digital logic to ppl, because for me at least, it taught alot about optimisation, amongst other things
I dont want to start a flamewar, but u will actually find learning C++/C, later on alot easier then java, because java is less sensitive to compile time problems I've found, and because there aren't pointers it can confuse ppl..
anyway, dont give up so easily mate.. I suggest u learn a bit of C/C++ on the side to see if programming really is ur thing or not..
At my university, sociology and communications were the best majors for people who wanted a degree but didn't want to actually do any work.
Computer Science == programming. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Sorry to be blunt, but if you can't handle an introductory course to Java programming, then you have misjudged your own abilities, and computer science is not for you.
"I really like physics, but I can't do math."
"I really like sports, but I hate breaking a sweat."
"I really want to be a doctor, but I can't handle blood."
You need to be realistic about your own abilities and find something that is more suited to your own abilities, and more important, your ability to persevere. Maybe a college degree isn't for you. If you want to stay in technology, maybe you should get a 2 yr IT certificate, or maybe get your MCSE and become an admin.
Other people have suggested Electrical Engineering, but sorry, if Java is blowing your mind, how the hell will you be able to do the math and physics involved with Electrical Engineering? I have an Electrical Engineering degree, and I studied my ass off, so I know how hard the math and the concepts are in the upper levels. If you can't handle programming (which is essentially flow charting) you can't handle engineering, period.
Sorry about that, but maybe this is the right time to switch fields into something else that you will be able to formulate a career on. It really sounds like computer science will just lead to misery for you.
Studying Computer Science without the knowledge of programming is like studying Physics wihout the knowledge of math.
...
How are you supposed to know the machine if you don't know how it works? People that know how to use few specific applications or know how to write HTML or XML don't deserve a PHD.
It's like being a mechanic who knows how to drive a car, but doesn't know how to fix the engine
how many people are going to read this headline, roll their eyes, and move on?
I know I did two of the three. I'll let you guess which two.
If you don't want to program try those - MIS, Business Computing etc.
Of course there's a possibility that you might actually LIKE programming, but you just don't like to do it in Java.
A way to find out is to try other computer languages. If you aren't even interested in doing that, then I doubt Computer Science is for you - you'd at least still need to do some pseudo code. Pick some other course.
It really doesn't matter so much. The whole idea is to get a decent cert, then get a job or get enough contacts + experience (whilst building your own portfolio - help relatives/friends ) to get a job. Once you've got a job, if you learn a lot and do a lot of good stuff, that cert doesn't matter as much after a while - this is not like Law, Medicine or Civil Engineering. Or perhaps Accounting - I haven't seen many people move into Accounting from other fields tho, more the other direction.
and the real 'cs' is done without writing a single line of code, you can draw diagrams for example that are very relevant to the design of something without knowing how to write a single line of code.
the coding part is just the part where the building gets built(pardon the analogy).
however if "introductory to java" is driving you around the edge maybe you need to seriously rethink your career options or you have a seriously sucky professor. if that is driving you nuts what would some course that introduced you into microprocessors with the use of assembler do to you?
pick up some coding project that intrestes YOU and code it. heaps more motivating than doing simple dialogs with swing by copying code from text, and helps much more into getting used to coding and knowing what to do where(and will probably make you to look up information from the net by yourself, for yourself).
you know, counter strike doesn't count as cs.. even though there's gazillion guys who have jumped into studying 'computers' because they just enjoy playing games or using programs and are not really intrested in what makes them tick(or how a big software project could be executed) at all.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I know an excellent Electronic Engineer who works with high speed RF and digital circuits, who wouldn't be able to handle Java programming. He cannot handle VHDL and that is somewhat closer to circuit design.
Electronics takes a different kind of thinking than programming, and some people have a distinct aptitude for the former.
While the last 15 years have richly rewarded artisan programmers, we are moving into an age where most programming will have to conform to increasingly rigorous blueprints. I tend to think of most coding as trending towards the white collar equivalent of construction - but much easier to export to cheaper labor markets, and requiring less equipment ( but more training). It is certainly nice knowledge to have if you are working around computers, but increasingly unlikely that you will be able to make highly meaningful contributions to society programming (unless you are skilled and visionary enough to remain one of the few artisans). Real change will be effected by those who can define at a high level, the needs of the business. Why not try to find a path that will lead you into this space? The code will take care of its self.
if you want to know HOW to do something you do a vocational course like MCSE.
if you want to know WHY you are doing it, you do a degree.
looks like you didn't even check what was on the course before you did it.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
You've come to the wrong room. This is "Computer Geeks and Coders". You're looking for "Liberal Arts Pansies"
Seriously, I'm curious what kind of Job you want after you get this degree. How technical? If you don't wish to write code, and earn a degree that's related to "Computer Science", I'm not sure that you are going to find a Technical-related career all that fun. This is what we do.
If you are imagining a career that you just use a computer, anything will do these days.
And further to the point, if you can't hack coding (pun welcome) , RUN AWAY FROM CS. If you end up in a career where you are going to be building interactions between users and computers, and can't code, I don't want to work with you.
eof
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
I've spent the last 5 years writing code. I've gone back to school to finish my degree.I hate writing code. I enjoy mathematical logic. I like the rigour of foundational mathematics/theoretical CS.
Unfortunately, CS courses don't transfer well, and I don't feel like paying large ammounts to finish non-major coursework (unfortunately I can't transfer it in from another university) at my old school.
I hate writing stupid code. I hate paying someone for the privilege of writing trivial classroom code. I'm working without the degree, so a math/physics double major with a minor in CS will work for me. Frankly, no one cares what your major was in IT. CS-based math courses (theory of computation|algorithms|discrete math) tend to lack rigour. My experience is that they often stop sort of proof. How can you study graph theory without proofs? Erdos and Dykstra are rolling over in their graves! This may be differ by school. CS is the one field you can teach yourself.
Do you want to be in IT or do you like applying computers to scientific problems? Frankly, physics, chemistry, and biology have computational subfields. There are even a few bioinfomatics programs for undergraduates. You might find cognitive science or statistics interesting. Heck, many good physics departments offer a computational physics/scientific computing course(s). It just depends.
The other option might be to suffer through a few CS courses, and get a degree in something else and study CS at the graduate level. Most CS departments take people from other disciplines. Math is the best in that regard. Some MIS programs (like CMUs) allow you to focus on non-programming areas and are pretty good. You might like a program like Boston University's "Cognitive and Neural Systems". CalTech has a similar program at the Koch Lab. I even saw a "computational mathematics" program at JHU that required little programming. In fact, some of the best computer scientists are secretly mathematicians. Knuth, (Martin) Davis, Minsky, Ritchie, and many others have PhDs in math.
The little joke among computer scientists is that the best don't often study it. Logicians and combinatorical mathematicians tend to be better with the theory. Engineers are better with hardware. EEs are usually the ones who write device drivers. Heck, who wouldn't want a Claude Shannon or Lofti Zadeh working on CS problems. Frankly, I don't understand the point of modern-day CS. It's not math and it's not quite engineering. I like CS, but I just hate the boring coursework.
If you're still not convinced take a look at "The Feynman Lectures on Computation" and "Feynman and Computation". One of his hobbies was algorithm analysis. The man wasn't just a brilliant physicist. He did groundbreaking work with computers. I was first introduced to analog computation and quantum computation by Richard Feynman's work. He also worked on some deeper computational problems during the Manhattan Project (see "Surely You're Joking" [his memoirs]).
Type analog computation in a search engine and you'll see that this area of CS is done by other other fields. I've been reading about the applications of analog computation and their relation to limits of computation (see Neural Networks and Analog Computation:
Beyond the Turing Limit. In fact, the future of computing may lie in some analog world. The computer program is math (see An Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications)
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
Knowing how to code is a really important skill to have if you want to do anything in depth with computers, even if you dont want to do any real developing. If you can look at a program and grasp the general idea of how it works, it makes it a lot easier to use and troubleshoot. I myself am studying CS, and hope to get a coding job. I was required to write a compiler for one of my classes, and it helped my coding abilities a lot because I now understand the process of going from "if foo than bar() else foobar()" to machine language, and can write more optimized code because of it. This is analagous to being able to use software better because you know how it works. To really understand what you are working on, you need to understand what is going on underneath it.
So the bottom line is, if you cant handle coding, i'd suggest you change your career goals.
My university had 3 different computer related majors. CS, IS, and MIS. CS was for people who understood math, theory, and coding. IS was for people who don't understand theory, have some math, and could code. MIS was for people who had no clue about math, theory, or coding. They usually became your boss.
just get a MSCE no learning anything but how to reformat a drive, and how to count up licenses
You could try VB.Net
Become an IT analyst - No experience required.
Google Didiot
Groklaw Didiot
What you want is "Management Information Systems". This is essentially computer science minus the coding. This course selection is geared more towards people who are to manage the people who make the software.
Of course you may consider simply obtaining technical certififcations in place of an actual degree, they can be just as fruitful on a resume if not moreso. MCSEs and CCNAs and A+s require almost no knowledge of programming.
I've spent the last 5 years writing code. I've gone back to school to finish my degree. I hate writing code, but I enjoy mathematical logic. I like the rigour of foundational mathematics and theoretical CS.
Unfortunately, CS courses don't transfer well, and I don't feel like paying large ammounts to private school to finish non-major coursework (unfortunately I can't transfer non-major coursework in from another university at my old school).
I hate writing stupid code. I hate paying someone for the privilege of writing trivial classroom code. I'm working without the degree, so a math/physics double major with a minor in CS will work for me. Frankly, no one cares what your major was in IT. CS-based math courses (theory of computation|algorithms|discrete math) tend to lack rigour. My experience is that they often stop sort of proof. How can you study graph theory without proofs? Erdos and Dykstra are rolling over in their graves! CS is the one field you can teach yourself.
Do you want to be in IT or do you like applying computers to scientific problems? Frankly, physics, chemistry, and biology have computational subfields. There are even a few bioinfomatics programs for undergraduates. You might find cognitive science or statistics interesting. Heck, many good physics departments offer a computational physics/scientific computing course(s). It just depends.
The other option might be to suffer through a few CS courses, and get a degree in something else and study CS at the graduate level. Most CS departments take people from other disciplines. Math is the best in that regard. Some MIS programs (like CMUs) allow you to focus on non-programming areas and are pretty good. You might like a program like Boston University's "Cognitive and Neural Systems". CalTech has a similar program at the Koch Lab. I even saw a "computational mathematics" program at JHU that required little programming. In fact, some of the best computer scientists are secretly mathematicians. Knuth, (Martin) Davis, Minsky, Ritchie, and many others have PhDs in math.
The little joke among computer scientists is that the best don't often study it. Logicians and combinatorical mathematicians tend to be better with the theory. Engineers are better with hardware. EEs are usually the ones who write device drivers. Heck, who wouldn't want a Claude Shannon or Lofti Zadeh working on CS problems. Frankly, I don't understand the point of modern-day CS. It's not math and it's not quite engineering. I like CS, but I just hate the boring coursework.
If you're still not convinced take a look at "The Feynman Lectures on Computation" and "Feynman and Computation". One of his hobbies was algorithm analysis. The man wasn't just a brilliant physicist. He did ground-breaking work with computers. I was first introduced to analog computation and quantum computation by Richard Feynman's work. He also worked on some deeper computational problems during the Manhattan Project (see "Surely You're Joking" [his memoirs]).
Type analog computation in a search engine and you'll see that this area of CS is done by other other fields. I've been reading about the applications of analog computation and their relation to limits of computation (see Neural Networks and Analog Computation: Beyond the Turing Limit). In fact, the future of computing may lie in some analog world. The computer program is math (see An Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications). Church's Thesis may prove to be the most valuable piece of 20th century mathematics. In fact, I've seen a few logicians that use LISP code to do mathematical work (like Gregory Chaitin).
Ultimately, I think you need to figure out what you really enjoy doing and find other people who are doing it.
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
Even if you don't want to code in your career, you should do some of it in your CS degree: otherwise you won't have a rounded appreciation of what it takes to do the coding, especially when you're interfacing with coders (you seem to want to take on a less-than hard-core style of CS career).
Sure, I'm a BEng and I write high level code, not assembler or microcode: yet I had to do a number of assember and microcode classes at university even though I knew I would never want to use the skills: the point is that I'm a better high level designer and coder because I understand what's around me, not just superficially, but from the hard lessons of doing it.
Life is too full of people that "think" they know how to do something without ever having to do it. The benefit of a university education is that you're supposed to have depth in what you do, and what's _around_ what you do. That depth best comes from some actual experience, not just from a few paragraphs in a text book. The world will be a better place because we'll all understand more about the landscape rather than our narrow focus.
"Practical", hands-on work is required to learn and understand things at any level.
You need to toil for a bit as a lower level undergraduate to give you the base knowledge that you'll need later. If you think that intro to Java is bad... just wait until you are a Junior and they have you code a project in a language that you've never heard of -- and expect it done in two weeks or so.
The lower level classes seperate the wheat from the chaff. I'll put it to you this way. My CSI 201 course (the first course for majors) was a lecture with 550 students in it.
Data structures had around 450.
Algorithims had about 200.
Senior classes had 40-50 max.
If you can't hack it, that's cool. But if you stick with the program, you'll find the higher level classes a heck of alot more interesting.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
If you don't like coding you could always get a MBA and be the pointy haired boss ;)
wait until you get into the real world and end up writing code that has to write code in another language. I've had to do that several times over the years.
And even more fun is writing SQL that produces control cards for utility runs. Oops, gotta do that this morning to generate the list of packages to free later this week.
Seriously, if you don't like programming (be it Java or some more friendly language), why are you in a CS course?
Be happy you didn't take Fortran as your intro language like I did. (Arithmatic ifs and 1 hour common exams in the auditorium, ah memories. The best memory is the dirty looks I got when I finished first out of 400+ students and walked out of those exams and still aced them). Damn, am I showing my age here?
Posted by Cliff on 4:43 25th February, 2004
from the english-department-lite dept.
Peterus7 asks: "I'm a student at the University of Washington, and I was planning on majoring in English or Literature and Compositions until I took English, and I'm realizing that it's simply beyond me. I grew up with the language, and naturally I want to study a field that involves a lot of interaction between people and the language (mainly fiction writing), but the Intro to Story Structure I'm taking now is driving me over the edge. Any suggestions for a linguisticly intensive field that doesn't require ungodly amounts of writing, or perhaps any general methods for surviving english courses for new students?"
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
At my school we have the School of Engineering Technology which is a more well rounded CS and CE learning experience. There is some coding, but there is also hardware, and theory with a dash of EE and networking. I left CS and went to it (Not because I didn't like coding, Calc kicked my tushie Frosh year), and it was quite an enjoyable experience. Some of my friends were also CS refugees and there were a few in the same boat as you, and they also did quite well in the environment, albeit with a little difficulty in the coding classes.
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
You found out you really don't like coding. Coding is like music or art; not everyone's talent lies in that direction. It's good that you realized this because it doesn't look like there will be many new coding jobs over the next decade unless you are in a developing country.
Career wise, I look at my company and we have plenty of coders, but what we really need is salesmen who understand technology. There is always work for people who can sell. The requirements would be a business degree with a minor in information technology (whatever they call the track that prepares you for an MIS career) and (THIS IS NOT A JOKE) you have to play golf. I am not making this up: we are seriously hampered by a lack of golfers in our company. In major consultancies, golf is almost a religious obligation.
That said, if sales is not your cup of tea, let me give you a number of job titles you might be interested in that don't involve much or any coding:
* Network/System Administrator
* Data Center Administrator
* Database Administrator (DBA)
* Database Analyst
* Systems Analyst
* Graphic Designer
* User Interface Designer
* Project Manager
* Geographic Information Systems Analyst
* Technical Writer
* Product Manager
this list goes on and on.
I would suggest the following. Look at the help wanted ads and make a list of the kinds of jobs being listed. Take that list, and the one I've provided above and do a little research on what those people do and what they need to know. Next, think of some company you might want to work with, call up the HR department and say that you are a student that is looking at career paths and you'd like to find out about the kinds of career preparation you need to do job X. Don't worry if you get blown off by some companies. For reasons that will become clear, the ones that rude and unhelpful are not the kinds you want to talk with anyways. With luck you may be able to get in for a meeting and talk to some people in HR or who actually do some of the kinds of jobs you are interested in.
You have two agendas: an overt and covert one. The overt agenda is as I have said above. The covert one is to meet people and build a network. There's a good chance that if you show the kind of initiative I'm suggesting you will land an internship or summer job, and eventually a permanent job offer. Also, you will begin to build a network.
If I had to make one suggestion to people starting their careers is that their most important resource they have is their list of friends and acquaintences. Cold calling looking for a job sucks, so I'm suggesting you want start working on getting past that part now. When you apply for a job, you have to jump through a series of hoops and you can be disqualified at any point for some lame reason without ever getting to the all important interview. But you can call a friend any time, and if he happens to be hiring or be friends with the person who is hiring, you're in. Ideally, you want to be in contact before the job is created so that it is specifically designed for you.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
This is hardly offtopic, moderators.
I had a full load of upper level biochem/microbiology coursework and thought the 'intro to c' course would be cake. It nearly killed me. The problem was not the coding, but rather the editors and environments. I was routed into the labs to do my assignments, logged into a sun workstation for my first time ever, and given a keyboard cheat sheet to emacs as an editor... Thanks for all the help guys...
Rather then learn Unix shells and figure out vi/emacs - I did all my homework on using a DOS based C compiler that I used for, learned the zen of mounting a floppy and eject the bloody thing, and a command/script to strip the bloody ^M's off. It would not surprise me to see they sent you off to a Unix lab. It is Java - you don't even have to recompile your source code if you build your classes on a machine/editor you are comfortable with.
Of course, if the coding is really the source of your problems - you are boned. Either the prof is nasty or you should have done more prep work before taking the class.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
If you want to be a doctor but can't handle blood,
there are alternatives, such as physical therapy.
From people I know, when they start handling corpses
in medical school, many people change sections so
they can watch instead of having to handle the corpses.
But there are plenty of alternatives.
On the flip side, if you are not nourished by long hours in the dull glow of a crt; if you don't find algorhythms sexy, if you'ld rather clock out and have a life instead of debugging through the night until it works: then this might not be the career for you!
"Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
Don't think this'll get seen...anyway...
There's a huge difference between Computer Science and Software Engineering. CS is the theory behind computers. It's based heavily on math and induction and is incredibly interesting stuff if you like discrete mathematics. It's a deep field too. If you want to know just how deep, take a look through any of the three volumes of "The Art of Computer Science" by Donald Knuth.
Software Engineering is a byproduct of Computer Science. It's just one of the applications. Programming is very appealing to some, but others would just rather focus on the theory. Java is probably the most implementation-oriented languages anywhere, with a huge library of built-in functionality, emphasis on integration, etc.
So hey, you have a choice. If you think CS is better for you, find a school that does more math and less programming, and the other way around for SE. And, seriously, it may seem daunting at first, but read Knuth's books if you think you're interested in CS. Not cheap, not easy, but eternally rewarding.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
No, you are wrong. I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, and I know electronics.
If you abstract both concepts, they are both essentially flow charting. He may not know how to program in Java, but if he had to, he could learn. He may never be good at it or like it, but he could learn. Think about all the other things he has learned in order to become an Electronics Engineer.... Java programming is nothing compared to that.
The author of the original question was incapable of learning Java.
Systems analysis & design is about logic, and knowing how technologies work together (with people, and other technologies). It's pretty great :)
geeks are cats who dig a certain kind of cool
Typically, EE requires little coding, Physics
less, and Mathematics even less.
What you seem to want is a system administration
career. For that, a technical school diploma
is more suitable than a 4-year college diploma.
You could go see what the instructors at the
technical school majored in.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
All my professors have their PhDs, and none of them seem to be under any pressure to provide working code. In fact, I'm reasonably certain its beyond most of them to write a solid and complete program. You sound like a perfect fit.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Become a software developer for almost any company. I often go a whole week without writing code. Sometimes they even bring in lunch or donuts for the meetings.
Become a PHB. That way you can play games in your cushy office with the door closed while you boss the CS grads around.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
general methods for surviving computer science courses for new students?
love it or leave it.
OK, we've got a whole bunch of posts telling this guy he shouldn't go into computer science - I think that it's obvious that he figured that out on his own. I think that was fundamental to his whole damn point.
There are plenty of computer intense fields that don't require coding. In fact, the number of fields that meet that criteria is increasing all the time.
Things to look into would include IT if you're interested in networking or system administration. If your interested in science you could undoubtedly use your computer skills. Lots of business degrees are actually rather math/computer intensive and being especially good on the computer could give you a real advantage.
Look into the fields of program manager or business management. I work around these people all the time, and while they spend a great deal of time trying to understand what we the coders do, and trying to get us on board with the rest of the company, they also have time to dabble with computers and enjoy the highlights of the field.
You may want to exercise the artist in you and look at computer graphics. I work with a web designer who hasn't the foggiest what is happening behind the scenes, but is expert in how users will use the system, what colors and layouts are most pleasing, and things like that. These are all things that are really quite interesting to study, and even more fun to apply.
Finally, never discount the value of being a good lawyer, doctor, or accountant. These are tried and true professions, and they require you to think and nowadays to use computers heavily. I have worked with doctors writing software for them, and I have worked with accountants as well, and these careers are anything but dry and boring.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
First of all, I unfortunately see some posts that are like "well if you can't program, don't use computers!" And that bothers me a little bit. Now while I will say that it is hard to use computers to any significant degree above the average joe without doing at least SOME programming, that doesn't mean that you have to dedicate your life to it to be in a computer field.
Case in point. I went to a community college and got an associates degree in Computer Science. I could do programming, but my heart just wasn't in it. Let's face it, some people like to code, some don't, and I'm one of the ones who isn't that fond of it. So when I went on to a 4-year institution I switched my degree from CS to Information Technology. Instead of focusing purely on coding like with a CS degree, the IT degree involved many more aspects of the computer. I did my concentrations in systems administration, and in networking, and now I have my bachelors degree for IT. (there were also concentrations in writing code, and web design, and database work, and things like that)
But the point I'm trying to make is that as a systems admin, I have to write code perodically. Our account-generation program on campus is 100% hand-coded, and I'm quite proud to have done it myself. But do I code on a daily basis? Nope. Just when necessairy to make a task easier. And honestly, that suits me just fine. So I'd recommend looking at alternative computer degrees at whatever college you are attending to see if they have something that might suit your needs better than CS does. I wouldn't expect to get away with no coding, but you can definately get away with less.
At RIT the alternative degree to CS was the Information Technology degree, like I mentioned. At the community college I went to, I believe the alternative to the CS degree, was the CIS (Computer Information Systems) degree. So just keep an eye out and see what else is availble. Just don't shut yourself off from coding 100%, there are times where even a little bit of code will help make your life a lot easier.
-Through the server, over the router, off the firewall... Nothing but 'Net!
Time to burn some Karma.
/. you are mostly asking programmers about how to avoid programming. But one of the biggest problems in the industry has always been the Large Gap between the IT folks and the Business Line folks. The Business Line people don't know what's possible and don't know what to ask for. While the IT folks don't spend day-in-day-out working directly with a given business line. More often than not they don't know the business process from a grain auction, how it brings in money, what processes are necessary from a legal standpoint. What IS that crazy spreadsheet for? Why are piles of printouts stacked in storerooms rather than stored as searchable electronic files? What are all these ancient files on the server for, if anything? What does the VP fly to Louisiana every week? Is there a better way?
I've never worked at a technology company, I've always worked at companies in other sectors. All these companies use technology. That said, I would suggest getting your degree in Finance, or Business, or whatever floats your boat, and do a minor or second major in your school's equivalent of Applied Computing.
Here on
That's where you come in. Make it your goal to operate as a bridge between the technology folks (cost center) and the business lines (profit center). Become an expert in something + applied technology. Then instead of butting their heads against "clueless lusers" the tech folks can talk to you. And instead of feeling lost and at the mercy of the tech folks, the business folks can talk to you. You're a liaison. A facilitator. You have developed your business acumen and your people skills, AND you know what NAT is and the difference between a firewall and proxy server. You won't know how to program, but you'll know what programming can and can't accomplish for a given business need. You'll know how communicate needs and provide direction across the Business--Technology chasm.
That's what I'd shoot for if I were you. I wish there were many more people doing that.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
As many here have said, it's possible that you're in the wrong degree program. At a four year university, if the degree says "Computer" or "Information Systems / Science" in it, you're going to have to do quite a bit of programming.
I'm currently an Information Systems major at Ohio State and feel it's a good fit for me. (The major was formerly called Management Information Systems). IS at OSU is about (outside the General Ed requirements) half business and half tech. The tech is about two thirds programming and one third systems analysis.
I don't enjoy coding, and I don't think I'm that great at it (relative to others who post here). However, I'm good enough and tenacious enough to pull off B's with some A's in the programming courses.
As for what I'll be doing full-time after school, I will be doing tech support and project management for Campus Crusade for Christ's largest state-side region. I think my degree will have prepared me for that because I will be able to speak the language of business / operations as well as the language of the "dedicated" programmers and engineers. My goal coming in to MIS was to be like PERL: jack of all trades, master of very few.
I started off as an engineering major (because of my standardized test scores), but the CAD classes kicked my ass hard enough that I decided not to pursue engineering. It sounds like perhaps you're having the same problem with coding as I did with CAD.
There is a reason some courses are called "weed-out classes."
I recommend you find a major that you enjoy AND are good at. It may or may not be tech-related. If you want some specific tech skills thrown in, consider hitting a community college or similar for certificates / experience in the areas of IT that interest you. A non-tech degree / skills with some tech certificates thrown in can actually be pretty attractive to a lot of employers.
I was offered and accepted a non-tech position with U.S. Bank in 2001 for that same reason.
Good luck!
- Neil Wehneman
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
I want to study a field that involves a lot of interaction between people and technology (mainly computers)... Any suggestions for a technologically intensive field that doesn't require ungodly amounts of coding
The statements above are going to cover nearly EVERY professional field and field of study in the next few years. Psychology, Economics, statistics, law, medicine, and even English are all using computers way more than they ever did, and that trend is only going to continue.
However, I recognize that there are lots of technically inclined people who aren't cut out for the particular mindset involved in programming (and programmming well.) Here are some job descriptions that I think incorporate both a love of technology and computers, but don't require programming:
Log/traffic analysis: Almost every company has a Web site. Many don't make much use of their web logs to do much more than count hits or visitors. Logfiles, with lots of massaging, can reveal lots of data about the patterns of visitor behavior. These data can help develop new site features to increase return visitors or clickthrough ratios, improve upon text or navigation, etc. You can use commercial or open-source software packages to glean the information you need, but the real challenge isn't in finding the right data, it's in asking the right questions.
Usability/Human-computer Interaction: HCI is one of the sections of the ACM computer science curriculum. Carnegie Mellon has a grad program devoted to this (I believe.) It's a growing field, combining software and cognitive psychology. It's everything from designing the User Interface to software programs or Operating systems, to figuring out the right button configuration on a new mouse design. Study cognitive psychology, take some electives in HCI from the Comp Sci department, and whatever likely courses appear in the Engineering department. Also look under ergonomics (a slightly related field.) My personal theory here is that desktop computers in business are more than fast enough to run the programs we typically use them for. Gains in productivity from faster processor and more RAM are going to be minimal. The real productivity gains of the future are going to come in making it faster and easier to do the things we do by creating better designed, more intuitive software.
QA: Every technology shop needs QA. A lot of the time it's done by programmers. To me, that sucks. The programming mindset is a "problem-solving" one. The QA mindset is a different one, and one that programmers are almost diametrically opposed to... finding potential problems, breaking software, etc. A good coder learns how to anticipate and code for these things as part of their practices. They build in validation, check internal validity of data, prevent buffer overflows, and avoid making assumptions. A good QA tester will run circles around a good programmer in this area though. I think there's definitely a "knack" for QA that some people have, and others don't... and these people are often not the most computer savvy. At our company, we have a copy-editor who we have test out new apps, maybe because she's a copy-editor and has a good attention to detail, or maybe it's just her super-power, but she never fails to find problems that coders have missed.
Tech support: I don't mean answering the phones for AOL... i mean find a software company that makes products targeted at end-users with better than average computer skills, more of a B-to-B than a B-to-C company. You become an expert in their software product or products, you learn to solve simple and advanced problems that users might have. You become a god and savior in times of need... there are Tech Support reps, and then there are GOOD tech support reps (although many slashdotters may disagree with me regarding the latter, but trust me, they are out there, albeit in small numbers.) We need more GOOD reps. It's a different mindset than programming, again, but we need them.
The facts have a liberal bias. --The Daily Show
The first thing you need to do is find an actual job/job field you want to be in, and see what the typical requirments are for that job. It doesn't sound like you really want to be a programmer or a network admin from this line in your post:
grew up with computers, and naturally I want to study a field that involves a lot of interaction between people and technology (mainly computers)
I would try to narrow that down to an actual job title. Now, if you do decide that you want to be a programmer, or at least continue to pursue a CS degree, The first thing is,
DON'T GIVE UP!
Despite what some of the keyboard warriors here on slashdot say, if you want to do it I'm sure you can. If I were you I would pick up Head First Java I had to train someone to move from being a web designer to using Java at my job. I recommended this book and it went over really well. Check out some of the sample chapters and see if you like their "teaching" style.
Guess what: when most of the potential CompSci teachers are going to industry, it doesn't get taught properly. For example: I love theory and I enjoy teaching, but half way through my Master's degree I realised that I'm not willing to put up with the bullshit required to get to a position where I have the opportunity to teach.
And actually I'd have to disagree with you somewhat: higher-level courses should have purely theoretical lectures, but students should get the opportunity to implement those theories in labs. Labs in CompSci?! A novel idea, I know. It's almost enough to make it into a real science...
I enjoy computers as a hobby. I won't do them for a living. I simply don't have the "coder drive". My husband is a Software Engineer. His whole job is designing specifications and requirements, as well as the programming after the spec's been done. A Software Engineer who doesn't code won't do well, becaue he doesn't know the limitations of the proposed languages, or even alternative languages to use. You may be able to take a different course, but I'm afraid that its people like you who are making it harder for others to find IT jobs. Too much dross in the market. My husband's Project Manager is a manager by trade, but never was a programmer. He ends up signing off on specs that my husband would never be able to do, because he doesn't know the limitations of the language the company requesting the specs has asked to for. Its not til later on, once the contracts are signed and my husband and his co-workers sit down to actually do the work that its discovered it can't be done. If you can't see yourself coding frequently, maybe Information Systems would be a better choice for you. Or, it might be best to keep computers as a hobby, and choose another degree. If your heart just isn't in it, you'll go to work every day hating your job, and end up hating computers too.
I TA'd a "Introduction to Programming for People Who Will Never Take Another Programming Course" last year and because the Computing Dept standardized on Java (I have yet to meet a Professor who admits to being in favour of that, interestingly enough) it was also taught in Java. Despite the language, they managed to learn some important basic concepts like functions (we called them "methods", of course) and control structures. Still, I feel guilty to this day that these students will never understand why they had to write
at the top of every file. :(
Are guidance counsellors and their tests actually useful for anything? Personally I've always steered clear, but if someone has a success story I'd be interested in hearing it.
Academia is in a sense designed to move slowly and be unresponsive to industry. Unfortunately, CompSci Depts tend to be just responsive enough that they throw out some of the blessed theory and instead teach decade old technology. So universities will start pumping out software architects just around the time the last programming job leaves our fair shores.
Personally I think that universities shouldn't waste their time trying to teach practical concepts when they're obviously not designed for it. If they think that the degree should have some practical component, then make it a joint degree with a college and let their instructors stay up on stuff.
If you feel you're a methodical-minded person, who wants to do something cool, but you don't like coding, there's always plain old non-computer science.
Try something like chemisty (or biology), even in physical chemistry, you don't really do any programming, but you get to use some of the most cutting edge tools out there.
If you don't mind some minor coding (think graphical, like LabView) then experimental physics would be good. While many people in physics do a LOT of programming, there are also a lot of people who don't do very much at all.
I think there are too many people out there who feel that just because they are good with a computer, it means they have to go into CS. There are plenty of ways you can further science and technology without doing CS, and still be a very self respecting geek.
Think of it this way, I don't do CS, I don't program very much. I've never used registers, or written a driver, but when I tell my CS friends I'm working on experimental nanotechnology, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.
I have a joint degree in CompSci and Philosophy, care to tell me what my niche is? :)
But seriously, the parent has a very good point: pure programming is all being off-shored. It's foolish to graduate with a pure CS degree in this day and age, even if that's all you want. Your niche will be much less competitive (and probably more interesting) if it's multidisciplinary.
May I recommend Bioinformatics or Computational Finance if you like money?
Heh, 'NaN' :P
(And if you find that funny, you are in the right field)
The problem I see with an IT or IS degree is that it's essentially a technologist designation. You don't necessarily get the broad-based education which many university degrees are famous for. I suspect MIS degrees include a bit more theory because IS is seen as a tool to help the business rather than a pursuit in of itself, but it's still not high-brow. With CompSci you get all the theory courses which can really be applied to every part of life (eg: lineups in banks are more efficient than lineups in grocery stores) and include concepts that open your mind (eg: computability).
Mind you, it is possible for an IS program to include liberal arts and science components. For example my alma matter had an IS Prof who used IBM and the Holocaust as a text book, talked about corporations-as-organisms, and taught a senior course in general systems theory.
Hey everyone, I want to work in a really cool field, but I don't want to learn anything that goes into that field... can anyone help?
Come on people... if the guy can't handle basic CS courses, then this is probably *NOT* the field for him. Face it, to work in most computer technology fields, you must have atleast a passing understanding of programming. Unless you're a MCSE.
The solution: Go into politics. It seems that many of the "distinguished" politicians (in the US) claim to understand or have invented much of our technology... of course, we all know that's bull.
You work with computers all day every day, you work with people constantly but don't have to understand how they work.
You just need to learn about colors, shapes, and eventually how to express yourself by creating websites that are 100% Macromedia flash that only other graphic artits will be able to use because of the 4 pixel boxes that you choose as your user interface while the rest of the screen looks like someone tried mixing some paint with the lids off. Learn the art of useless yet exciting shapes and how to make pages flash and cool looking "please wait" screens.
All kidding aside, I have several not-to-techie friends who went this route. As much as they don't understand computers, they still create some frikin weird shit that I could never do myself.
Fascinating. There are under forty philosophy majors at ECU and just over a hundred CS majors. Three of us are CS doubling philosophy. Then in my Phil of Mind class we have a CS graduate and a former CS major.
I personally see connections to CS in my philosophy classes all the time (Coherentism = PageRank), but I don't know about the others.
But to answer your question, your niche is the same as a simple computer science major's, except you're more promotable because employers tend to like philosophy majors. We can (supposedly) handle critical thinking and such better than most people.
We are talking Fortran 74 here... ouch
I wanted to study applied computing too.
When I found that courses are run with programming only in mind I relised that it'll mature in time.
Computers are supposed to be an everyday tool by now. Using them as such - a ready to use tool should be legit. You should have to learn how to dev to study computing.
There are a few examples though:
- Electronic Music course
- Modern Journalism
- some networking courses
- Basic Office app courses
Just a shame nothing General is available
A blog I run for the wealth
offer a
"Let's mess around with slashdot style projects" course
I'm sure that would develop the fattest portfolio.
A blog I run for the wealth
I talked a bit and programmed a bit last night, and I discovered a few things: I'm not bad at working with visual stuff. We were coding an iterator for importing graphics, then building graphics. I actually enjoyed it. While it was rather tedious, but I thought it was pretty fun. Maybe it was just that it was a simple assignment, but it was one of the few things I've enjoyed. Also, I thought back on the midterm that made me write this. I got a 19/40 after spending an entire weekend cramming, going to study sessions (including one on one with the TA), and other stuff. I realized that A: I looked into the questions too much and wasted time trying to make iterators and arraylists where they didn't belong (the prof big on Arrays and Iterators, almost to the point of being mind numbing), and I thought everything was a trick question. At one point, I think I had a minor panic/spaz attack for some reason. (I have a lot of math anxiety issues from bad experiences early in life, and it was sort of like that.) Anyways, I'm going to try some of the things you people suggested, and thanks a lot for your input. I just hope other people who have the same problem will read this and get something out of it. Thanks again.
For me this just brought a flood of old memories back is all.
As for the list of languages, well COBOL has paid the bills for a lot of years, but I'm a DBA and DA now. Most of my coding is SQL (and contrary to popular opinion, it is pronounce "squeal", as in the sound the computer makes when the code hits it. LOL)
Yes, I played with lisp and PL1 in college. Never touched APL, Java, Perl. Rexx I never fell into. C - yuck! A high level assembler. Never caught my fancy.
BASIC to Visual Basic. Try writing your own pulldown menus in DOS Basic, because Visual Basic wasn't there yet? And make it well behaved enough that it still runs under the DOS window....
You're already in Washington state, so you definitely want to look at
Electronic Media and Culture at Washington State U. in Vancouver. I have a friend who worked for several years a project manager on projects to move, upgrade, or migrate office computers. He's about to graduate from the program and he's been very happy with it. Don't hesitate to get in touch with me if you want to know more.
As far as computer studies without coding, as a software developer I will say that if you want to write software for a living, and it sounds like that's not really your goal, there is no shortcut to learning -- writing lots of code is an absolute necessity, in exactly the same way that writing lots of words is necessary to become a good writer.
One thing you should know is that the intro to programming courses are simply designed to weed out people who might not be fully interested in CS.
Once you get past the two or three intro courses (you need to practically get a 4.0 in both of them) and get into the Department, then the cool classes beging.
Long story short, you gotta pay your dues and prove to the Department that you've got some serious 'game'.
Dolemite
___________________
Save the World! Use a Quote!
Latch onto someone like me, knowledgeable, nice, never learned to say no. Then, ask inane questions all of the time, day and night.. never look anything up for yourself, you selfish bastard. hey, fsck you. do your own damn homework!
The main thing is : are you prepared to learn hard and stay between 10 and 15 hours a day in front of your computer (and not to play ! ;). If yes, if you really want to work as a programmer, then try ! You know, with the understanding comes the pleasure. The problem is that some people can't understand, you must know if you are like these people or not.
Understandable, but a very ivory tower attitude.
The reality is that the majority of your students are going on to be programmers, perhaps even software engineers, but they're not going to be computer scientists. This doesn't mean you shouldn't teach computer science, many of those companies want people with CS education, a solid grounding in CS is necessary to be a great engineer.
By way of comparision, it would be like a physics TA telling his students, "If you just want to build bridges and buildings, go somewhere else, we're here to create Physicists, not Engineers." Yet I damn well hope that engineers are taking those physics classes. Pure theory physics is interesting, but it's only useful when people translate it to practice. We need some of each and the pure physicists have to expect to train the engineers.
It's unfortunate that CS blends the science and engineering into a single school. Your naive belief that there is a better place for would be programmers to go is incorrect. There really isn't a software engineering degree; the closest things tend to be fluffy and superficial; they focus on tools and techniques but fail to expose the computer science you need to excel. If you were to limit your class to people who want to be and have the potential to be computer scientists you'll be looking at some very small classes, a lower profile, and lower levels of funding.
I am not a computer scientist, I never have been, I never wanted to be. I'm a software engineer (or a programmer, or a hacker, or a coder, whatever). That's what I wanted to be when I entered college and it's what I'm happy to be today. But I highly value my computer science degree, it's one of the keys that allows me to be a good software engineer.
(I note that you prefer Computing Science over Computer Science to emphasize that you're about the theory, not the actual machines. It's a nice idea, but doomed one. Computer science is the accepted term and most colleges and universities call the department that. It's a tough life for the serious computer scientist. As they say, how real of science can it be if you need to append "science" to its name? If you really want to try and change things, try for just "Computing," no silly science after it. Hmmm, that doesn't look half bad. "I have a degree in Computing," sounds reasonable even.)
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Lisp is a quirky functional language suitable for scaring off perfectly qualified CS students. Lisp is quirky to a fault: car, cdr, and the different meanings of ` and ' are bad historic anomalies enshrined as The Truth. But that can be worked around. More problematic is that Lisp is a functional As it happens, people don't naturally think functionally, people think procedurally. Computers don't process things functionally, they process things procedurally. Lisp is a deep shock for most people and can very effectively scare new students away.
This is not to say that Lisp is bad. Indeed, Lisp has many useful characteristics. To get a CS degree one should absolutely be exposed to a good functional language like Lisp or Scheme. It's important to know how to think that way and why you might. But it's easier to appreciate (and less scary) after you've worked in procedural languages for a while.
The rest of your suggestions (Python, etc) are more reasonable; I'd just keep strongly functional ones off the list.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Not at all. I'm a computing scientist first, and a programmer second. Despite the fact that my current job is programming games, I still consider myself a computing scientist. A physicist that ends up doing something practical is a physicist ever after.
:)
I don't think your analogy about physicists and engineers is particularily accurate, either. A computing science degree is about the theory and mathematics of computing, but we're grounded in the practicality and engineering of programming. Even pure theorists actually write code now and then.
I disagree that there's not somewhere else to go to learn to be a programmer. There are numerous technical colleges that can produce fine programmers that can do a good job. They don't necessarily understand computational complexity, graph theory, or what an NP-Complete problem is, but I don't really think that it's a big deal that they don't. Most days, they'll be able to program just about as effectively as me. It's true that companies tend to look less favorably on such qualifications, though.
Despite your claim to being a software engineer, you're still a computing scientist. You've just decided to specialize in one of the many areas of computing. I consider myself a graph theorist and human interfaces specialist. I happen to be a good programmer, but that's just something extra on the side. Your skill lies in the analysis and design of systems. Programming is a little more relevant to you than it is to me, but it's still just a side skill. Assuming that you could never write another line of code in your life, you could still be an excellent software engineer.
Lastly, I don't really care what other people call it. I'm a Computing Scientist, like my father was before me. We both went to the University of Alberta, and went through their Computing Science program. http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/
I want to obtain a Physics degree from a department which doesn't require all this math stuff
There is a similiar situation with music education - people think their studies will be about children and playing instruments and whatnot. However, everyone is required to have an extensive background in music theory and aural skills.
Even though you could absolutely facilitate music education without knowing much theory or having a "good ear," developing that knowledge and skills will help you guide children in the earlier stages of musical development, even if you never actually use any of the advanced skills you developed in college.
It actually seems kinda strange - even though I now have extensive skills and knowledge, the manner in which I interact musically with people will actually have to be in such a way as if I did not have these skills or knowledge, because that is how students will relate to me musically.
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Dude. Listen to me. I have a PhD in computer science but felt the same way when I wrote my first assignments. It's hard to start, there's a way of thinking that you'll learn and grow accustomed to. Don't quit because you think it's too hard if you haven't really poured all of your sweat into the process.
...
Some advice, it's free and offered with no malice:
1. Back up a little.
2. Take SMALL steps when writing a program at the beginning.
3. Learn to debug by using the print statement don't get involved with a debugger etc. It won't be helpful.
4. Be prepared to spend a whole night looking for bugs (that's typical when you just start.)
5. Don't lose faith in yourself over this
6. Don't hesitate to ask for help but don't let someone else do your work for you. EVER.
FUCK OFF and DIE YOU ignorant MORON.
While I'm not a CS major, it sounds to me like the course is having the exact effect on you that the CS department designed it for.
The impression that I get from my friends that are in the CS department is that yes, they do force you to slog through a bunch of coding classes, but you really need to develop those tools to do the cool and interesting things you probably want to do with computers. (Plus, if you stick with it, a CS degree from UW is one of the better ones.)
Now, since you're at a pretty big school, if you really don't feel like sticking with it, there are other options that might be closer to what you want to do.
In particular, check out the Applied Computational Mathematical Sciences Department and the ridiculously competative Information School.
Maybe the course you are taking isn't being taught very well. A good instructor makes a lot of difference early on when there's a lot of basics to be learned. If you ask me, programming is a lot more straightforward than the theory end of CS. In fact, the few theory courses I've taken have involved no programming whatsoever. They're just so abstract that I have a bit of trouble with the concepts.
I'll have to disagree with a lot of these replies. Too many are saying "go into MIS, or IT, or program management, etc." This is the wrong tack. I'm sick and tired of managers who couldn't code a DOS batch file telling me how to write software. Or specifying .NET for hard realtime embedded systems on the basis of some advertisement they saw in PeeCeeWeek. It's just silly.
How can you possibly make a business decision to go with Java versus Python versus Ruby, if can't code in any of them? How can you create meaninful UML diagrams if you have no clue as to what they represent? And how the hell can you make any high level architectural decisions if you are clueless about the low level stuff works?
It's like your grade school teacher told you years ago: you're going to be using arithmetic and algebra the rest of your life, so you had better learn them. The same holds true for programming in any field related to computers. One example. The user interface design guys do a lot of analysis. They get in megatons of user data, and need to process it to get meaningful stuff out. So they write quick and dirty Visual Basic programs to do it. It's hardly the pinnacle of programming, but it beats going to the software department and begging for charity work when resources are tight.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
I'm not trying to be abrasive, but I will be direct. CS isn't what most people think it is.
CS isn't about just using computers. It's about understanding the principles upon which they operate. Stacks, Queues, Linked Lists, Matrices, Vectors, Arrays, Binary Trees, Hashes, myriad other data structures, bubble sorts, inheritance, polymorphism, structs, classes, virtual functions, and many, many other concepts that would give the "average" computer user a spliting headache. When you boil it down, CS is about the low level manipulation of data.
I can't imagine any effective BS degree program that involved computers that shouldn't include at least some programming. If you extrude the line of reasoning to other fields, the best car salesmen are the ones who know what is going on under the hood. I wouldn't buy a car from someone who couldn't explain to me why ABS brakes, or tuned port injection are beneficial to me. How can you expect to get into the computer field if you don't understand what's going on inside of the little box with all of the lights on it?
In all seriousness, maybe computers isn't the field for you.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
If you really want to try and change things, try for just "Computing," no silly science after it.
I definitely prefer "informatics" for the name of the science aspect. I think the real science in "computer science" is more akin to mathematics than to anything else. I'd like to see the discrete math, the information theory, the algorithmics, AI, programming language theory, etc. renamed "informatics" in the English-speaking world to emphasize the underlying theories of information, while deemphasizing any particular physical devices (computers) that are currently popular for implementation.
Another way to say it: a recursive Towers of Hanoi solution may be grown as a network of artificial neurons in a petri dish. It's still informatics, but it seems silly to call such a thing "computer science".
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
its confusing to those who haven't programmed before at least.. The thing is that with java code, u require more knowledge of which variables to do "new" to then in C, thats been my experience though.. I just think at the very least he should try out another language before giving up instantly.
Coding is not something u enjoy at first, because it takes a while to fully understand stuff (like in C++ ppl are taught that they need "using namespace std;" at the top of their code, but it isn't until months later that they have any comprehension of what a namespace is. But eventually, theres one point that everything falls into place, when the last basic pieces of the language are learnt.. and thats worth waiting for
c as a language has the functionality of a high level assembler language. Them's the facts.
Out in the world we talk about 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation languages. COBOL is widely considered a 3rd generation language, for example.
Assembler is a 2nd generation langugage. The rational is that assembler has a 1:1 correspondance with processor instructions.
In COBOL, for example, a single command will execute 1 or a dozen processor statments when compiled.
C does not execute many commands for most of it's statements, thus it is more like a high level assembler than a 3rd generation language.
I prefer writing in 3rd generation languages than 2nd.
However, I have on at least one occasion written a routine in 1s and 0s. Talk about a pain....
This will probably never be read by anyone, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it.
My school, and probably yours as well, has a few intro classes for just about every subject area that aren't pre-requisites for anything else. Most students won't take them, because, well, why would they want to take an extra class that if they don't need to? But, these classes can be extremely helpful for someone in your situation. The class I took that I'm thinking would help you out was Intro to Algorithms. Based on the course code, I thought it would be between Intro to Computing and Intro to Programming, and I was right. IMHO it helped a lot when I started taking my "real" programming classes. I suspect your school has something similar.
FWIW my Intro to Programming class was based on C++, which I think is a harder first language than Java, which they switched to a few semesters after I took it. That wasn't my first programming class, though. I started out my college career at a JC taking an Electronic Technician certificate course, and one of the requirements was Assembly Language. Personally, I think Assembly is an excellent first programming class. Working at such a basic level you really get a feel for how the computer "thinks", which makes it a lot more clear why in higher level languages certain constructs work, and others don't. Anyway, as unobvious as it might seem, that could be a good class if you're having trouble with the programming end of things.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Perhaps we simply have a terminology problem. By your definition, yes, I guess I'm a computer scientist. But by identification I'm a programmer, a hacker, a software engineer. I don't feel myself as a scientist; I'm a problem solver. It's a inaccurate stereotype, but Real Computer Scientists seem to look at actually touching computers with a bit of distain.
I'm familiar with various technical college programs and on the whole I'm suspicious of them (although I'm sure there are some great programs and some great people that come from them). But on the whole simply being taught languages and basic technique isn't good enough. To write software that doesn't, well, suck, you need a grounding in the context and theory. Sure, you'll be able to put together simple front ends and such, but you'll be hard pressed to manage a large scale project.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Frankly, that's a bit like a Physicist terming himself a mathematician just because 95% of his job is dealing in mathematics. You're a programmer because that's what it takes to be a computing scientist. Take away the programming, and you would still be capable of actually doing something meaningful in computing. Similarily, a physicist with no ability to do math (pretend that that could happen) would probably be able to conceptualize physics thought experiments that would be meaningful to physics.
You may self identify as someone that's merely a programmer, hacker and software engineer, but you're really more than that. There's nothing wrong with 'merely' being a programmer, but it's an incorrect moniker to saddle yourself with.
All you want is to leave the hard work for us!!
That's my major at CSU Chico. It does involve a lot of coding, BUT it requires almost no math or science classes.
"The chief enemy of creativity is 'good taste'" -Pablo Picasso
That being said, I have a Bachelor's in Computer Science from the University of Redlands. I had a VERY traditional CS education (OOP,Algorithms, Compiler Design, etc.). But it seems to me that with the diversity or the IT field, with SysAdmins, Network Admins, DBA's, Middleware Developers, GUI developers, etc. That there should be some concentrations (i.e., BS in Software Development, BS in Network Architecture and Administration). Any one of these occupations is more than rich enough to require 4 years of rigorous study (not the ITT Tech type of bachelor's...apologies to alums of ITT).
Programming is as much a science as throwing globs of paint on canvas is a science. Programming is Computer Art, not Computer Science. Furthermore, I'm a proficient C and C++ programmer, but I couldn't stand my intro Java course because the course attempted to use Java as a procedural language with some funny user-defined data types and a LOT of handwaving because it's a bitch and a half to teach OOP to people who don't understand how to declare variables. I actually suggest C++ for teaching because with much less handwaving, you can do basic programming in a procedural fashion, then teach OOP. In Java you have to teach a nasty hybrid of bad procedural programming with bad OOP, then attempt to retrain out of that into good OOP.
I think I remember having focus on some of my systems in the AT&T days. As the DBA I had to let it run, but didn't use it myself.
I have yet to see a single instance of a real 4GL language.
As for Codd, I started in the Network model DBMS side and if you really stop and examine the underlying structures, Relational technology is a cut down version of the Network model, with the addition of the "optimizer" tool laid over the top. If we could apply that tool to the network model, we would have something.
You need to get it thru your thick head that "Programmer" is not a subset of "Computer scientist" (which by the way is an awefuly poofter label.
Its the other way around.
A programmer knows the application and techniques for softwware development. A programmer also knows the theory behind computers-- the science of computers.
A computer scientist only knows the theory and not the applciation and is therefore completely useless to everyone.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
You're clearly something of a troll, but I'll answer anyway.
First of all, you're wrong. There are a lot of programmers out there that understand very little about how computers or algorithms work. Most amateur programmers understand only that they can tell the computer to do things and the computer will do them. They understand nothing of computational complexity, how the compiler works, or how the computer does anything that it does.
There was no class in my Computing Science degree that didn't include some programming except ONE high level graph theory course. Compilers, Operating Systems, Object Oriented Languages, Non-Procedural Programming Languages, Introductory Algorithmics and Logic - all of them had a programming component. You're not much of a computing scientist if you can't understand how to implement quicksort. Quicksort on paper is completely meaningless. Its only value lies in the knowledge of its implementation and usage.
Did you get kicked out of a Computing Science program somewhere? Feeling a bit left out?
LOL, no I think you're the one who can't be bothered to actually do any computer science (eg: work) and just wants to engage in mental masturbation all day.
Yes, there are coders that learn scripting languages and basic programming... but even basic programming requires knowledge of how computers work.
As you point out, programming is essential to your computer science curriculem, so your fantasies about having "Computer science" without programmign are just as absurd to your college as they are to me.
When you find monkeys that can do your programming for you, have fun.
But the fact of the matter is, there is more to software development than just programming, and unfortunately, computer science programs tend to focus too much on theory and not enough on the practice of software development.
By the way, you can't seem to decide if you agree with me or not-- all these "Computer scientists" who say they want to get away from computers and just work with paper are the problem here... yet you acknowledge my point-- a quicksort on paper is beyond meaningless- you'll never notice your errors, and it does nothing.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
No, that's not true. Like most people here on /., you have a skewed sense of what people know about computers. I KNOW a Psychology professor that taught himself how to program in Visual Basic and C. He's not great at it, but he can program somewhat mathematical code that deals with neural networks. He doesn't need to know how a computer works, merely how to tell the computer what he wants. I'm sure he doesn't care about the real difference between a char and a byte and an int, or even if there IS a difference most of the time.
Programming IS essential to computing science, but it's just a tool. Math is essential to computing science, too, but that's just a tool. I don't call myself a mathematician despite being well trained in calculus, algebra, discrete mathematics and graph theory. They're just a means to an end.
A programmer is not a computing scientist. A computing scientist is, however, usually a programmer.
It's true, there's a lot missing about software engineering in a computing science degree, but that's something that most people learn pretty quickly once they get a job in the real world.
Pure theory computing scientists are no more of a problem than pure theory physicists or pure theory mathematicians. It's useful to us to know these things. Quicksort was probably derived on paper before it was written.
I've probably been unclear before, so I'll try to clear it up here: computing scientists can't exist without work on pen and paper as well as the computer. A computing scientist that is merely a programmer is a waste, and a useless computing scientist. Knowing that quicksort is fast is something that anyone can learn. Knowing WHY it's fast is somewhat more complex. Understanding why its computational complexity is the best you can get is something that we get trained in. It's what makes us more knowledgable and flexible than people that take an introductory programming course. A computing scientist is SO MUCH MORE than a programmer. I did a lot of work programming to get my degree, yes, but I spent an equal amount of time in class taking notes on the science of what I was doing. A trained lab technician can perform complicated work in a biology lab, but it takes someone with a biology degree to understand the why, what and how of what's going on in that lab.
I've read some of what RMS has written, and I've taken a philosophy degree. Accusing someone with a philosophy degree of writing like Stallman is insulting.
Unfortunately, you don't know what you're talking about...you have your worldview and you aren't open to the real world.
It sounds like you've spent all your time at a university and haven't actually been a programmer.
A computer scientist and a programmer are the same thing. A psych prof who learns to program is a programmer-- not a full one, but a beginning one.
You belittle programming for whatever reasons you choose, but it sounds to me like you don't understand it, or computer science.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
I'm not a real programmer, eh? I 'belittle' programming? You really DID get kicked out of a CS program, didn't you?
Why don't you mail me at the email address that you see, and we'll talk. You can take the part of my email address after the '@' sign and add a www. to the front. Visit, and see the kinds of things that I work on.
A computing scientist is a programmer only in the same way a physicist is a mathematician.
Yawn, now you're repeating your lame insults?
Sorry, you have an attitude problem. You haven't made a counter argument-- all you've done is said nasty things about people.
Those who can do, those who can't bitch about the system.
In this discussion, it is YOU who is bitching about the system, not me.
The reality is computer science trains programmers. That's what the programs are set up to do, and that's what they do.
You're bitching because they are too hard, and make you actually use computers-- LOL! Maybe you're the one who got kicked out of a CS program.
Whatever, I don't care. You have had your chance to make an argument and you've failed.
Go get a job.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
You obviously didn't pay any attention to my last post. I DO have a job. I WORK as a programmer. I'm also well aware enough of my abilities to realize that I'm more than just a programmer. If it came to it, I could make a very good living NOT programming, but still working with computers in some computing science related field.
Email me. My email address is right there. Your argument is the one that lacks any substance. All you've managed to say is that 'Computing Science is the same as Programming', which doesn't become any more true any more times you say it to me.
And I wasn't bitching about the system, merely telling people that programming isn't the be-all and end-all of computing science. It's just a skill. The person bitching about the system is the originator of the whole thread.
Seriously, mail me. We'll talk about my job and my qualifications for saying these things.