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Controversial Manhunt Game Rated 'R' in Ontario

Posted by simoniker on from the new-zealand-and-canada-almost-colonial dept.

GrimSean writes "Well, it looks like someone in power up here in Ontario finally noticed the level of violence in Rockstar's Manhunt, as the Ontario Film Review Board has given it an R rating, much like a movie. The Toronto Star has an article here and the CBC has also covered the story - according to an article at CJAD, businesses could be fined a minimum of $25,000 Canadian for selling it to minors. It seems like they've completely sidestepped the ESRB's M rating and gone directly to the Restricted to 'control the thing'."

75 comments

  1. This is OK by pcbob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I see no problem with this - now all those whining "save the kids" types can't complain and get the game completely banned.

    Good decision, I applaud Ontario.

    1. Re:This is OK by JExtine · · Score: 1

      I concur, although why the Ontario Film Review board? Im not sure having videogame ratings being assigned by the film review board is a good precedent....
      One could consider it good or bad though, on one hand videogames being judged by a group well versed in making these types of judgements is defintely a plus, but on the otherhand this group probably doesn't have experience with games and dealing with their level of interactivity....
      Interesting story though, good to hear its getting judged instead of getting banned...

    2. Re:This is OK by Dark+Nexus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly!

      And kids who really want it can ask their parents... forcing the parents to be involved.

      And for those parents who don't have a problem with it can just go buy it for their kids.

      --
      Dark Nexus
      "Sanity is calming, but madness is more interesting."
    3. Re:This is OK by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 4, Informative

      Funny. I was going to post pretty much this exact same comment, and figured I'd be modded as a troll but was going to do it anyway since free speech rules:)

      I have no problem with this. I wish more areas would do this. Rather than whine about the games themselves, go after the fucking bastards who sell extremely violent video games to 10 year olds. Hit them in the wallet where it hurts.

      I mean credit to the ESRB thing, but a certificate is only useful if it actually does anything. As it is now, the "M" certificate isn't a warning, it's a selling point. If there's an existing structure in place for movies and it can be legally applied to video games, so be it. Start fining these stores that sell these games to kids large chunks of money and perhaps they may start enforcing the ratings.

      A similar approach has worked to a certain degree to stop kids buying cigarettes.

      In short, kudos to Ontario!

    4. Re:This is OK by Daetrin · · Score: 4, Interesting
      One could consider it good or bad though, on one hand videogames being judged by a group well versed in making these types of judgements is defintely a plus, but on the otherhand this group probably doesn't have experience with games and dealing with their level of interactivity....

      Some would even argue about their competency to judge films.

      I seem to remember that a few years ago there was some artsy type film that involved some females talking to each other about their sex lives. No actualy sex, just talking about it, and the MPAA wanted to rate it NC-17.

      Ok, after five minutes of Googling i think i have it narrowed down:

      "And some suspect that the MPAA rates films about female sexuality tougher than those focusing on men. For example, an independent teen comedy called Coming Soon that was a hit at the Seattle International Film Festival has had trouble finding a domestic distributor (20th Century Fox bought international rights) after being rated NC-17. The film, which is about three teenage girls who talk frankly about sex and their interest in it, contains no nudity and no violence. The filmmaker has said that when she accused the board of having a gender-based double standard she was told that the board was merely reflecting the mores of the nation."

      (Excerpt from this site)

      So if we can't even trust the review boards to judge movies fairly, how can we expect them to judge video games?

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    5. Re:This is OK by Ath · · Score: 0, Troll

      I am looking forward to the day Jack Valenti dies.

    6. Re:This is OK by Fred+Or+Alive · · Score: 1

      I concur, although why the Ontario Film Review board? Im not sure having videogame ratings being assigned by the film review board is a good precedent....

      One could consider it good or bad though, on one hand videogames being judged by a group well versed in making these types of judgements is defintely a plus, but on the otherhand this group probably doesn't have experience with games and dealing with their level of interactivity....

      As noted below, in the UK the British Board of Film Classification can rate videogames. From the BBFC website (click on 'The BBFC' in the menu, the FAQ and it's in the list, horrible design really):

      Under the Video Recordings Act, video games are exempt unless they depict (a) human sexual activity, or acts of force or restraint associated with sexual activity, or (b) mutilation or torture of, or other acts of gross violence towards, humans or animals, or (c) human genital organs or urinary or excretory functions, or (d) are likely to stimulate or encourage sex, violence, or criminal activity. Because most video games do not realistically depict humans or animals, they are exempt, but many video game distributors prefer to submit their games to the Board for classification in borderline cases. However, the industry itself has also become concerned with the accessibility and suitability of games and has introduced a self-regulatory system of classification for exempt videos which is run by ELSPA.

      This is a bit out of date, the ELSPA game ratings have been recently replaced by PEGI ones. But basically the same laws apply to rated games as Videos and DVDs, so it's illegal for them to be sold to people younger than the rating. AFAIK the only ratings ever given to games has been 15 and 18 ones[1]. Manhunt (and the Grand Theft Auto series) is rated 18. But about the only games rated are the really controversial ones, like Postal etc. The BBFC also seem to be rating less harshly nowadays, Soul Calibur was a 15 on Dreamcast, but it's sequel was exempt, I think early FPSes (Ultimate Doom (15?) and Quake (15)) generally got certificates, but newer ones don't etc. but the laws still come into force for extreme games, I do think the Video Recording Act would allow the BBFC the ban a game (or require changes), but I don't think that's ever been done (except posisbley with Postal 1, as the new release it marketed as uncut (it's an 18 still)).

      [1] Although Unlimited Saga has a U certificate on the box, that relates the the Final Fantasy X-2 preview DVD included with the game (most other games with bonus DVDs have been except it seems.)

      --
      10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
      20 GOTO 10
    7. Re:This is OK by FortissimoWily · · Score: 1

      "I seem to remember that a few years ago there was some artsy type film that involved some females talking to each other about their sex lives. No actualy sex, just talking about it, and the MPAA wanted to rate it NC-17."
      Except the group that rated the game wasn't the MPAA, it was The Ontario Film Review Board. ;)

    8. Re:This is OK by Pizzop · · Score: 1

      Man, I think it should move to a rating system like this in the US. If you can't go to the R rated movie, you can't buy (or RENT) the R rated game. And I also hate to say it, but the fines are a good way to start the enforcement of the ratings. It really sucks that the Goverment (US atleast) blames violent video games for society's spiral toward violence, and doesn't think that maybe the movies are to blame.

      --
      How to Speak Leet
    9. Re:This is OK by kommakazi · · Score: 1

      Im not sure having videogame ratings being assigned by the film review board is a good precedent....

      Why not? Tons of video games these days really are little more than interactive movies anyways, and Manhunt definately falls into that category. If you turned the game into a movie it would be nothing more than an extremely violent snuff film (I've beaten the game, personally, so I know) which would definately be rated R if released into theatres.

  2. Power Grab? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Seems the only way that they can do this is via a very loose definition of film in the Theaters act.

    Off topic: I noticed this section of the Theater Act:

    National anthem

    21. (1) The national anthem shall be played in every theatre at the commencement of the first or at the conclusion of the last exhibition or performance given each day. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.6, s. 21 (1).

    Can our Ontario readers inform me if this is really done?

    1. Re:Power Grab? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      21. (1) The national anthem shall be played in every theatre at the commencement of the first or at the conclusion of the last exhibition or performance given each day. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.6, s. 21 (1).

      I'm from Ontario, and I've never heard the national anthem played at a theatre. It seems like a stupid thing to put in the law. But look at the wording: they only need to play it once a day, and can do it after the last performance, i.e. after the credits of a late showing. Almost everyone would leave before that, so only a theatre employee would know if the anthem was played.

    2. Re:Power Grab? by Axiom_D · · Score: 3, Informative

      They used to. I remember as a kid that every theater had the national anthem played before every movie. Now, we only get a slide show (of comercials), then a bunch of comercials and then a few tailers.

      A few years ago, I was up at an army base, and watch a movie there. They still played the national anthem. It was really strange to listen to O'Canada and then watch species.

    3. Re:Power Grab? by SaturdayNight · · Score: 1

      Natasha Henstrige would have been very proud...

    4. Re:Power Grab? by ftw37 · · Score: 1
      When I was a kid, the national anthem was played at the beginning of the movie. This was back in about 1980, when it was still legal to smoke in the movie theatre.

      I remember the feeling of anticipation before the movie would start, and then the curtain would raise, the lights would dim, and the first thing that was played was the scratchy copy of the national anthem. The beam of light from the projector was clearly visible in the cigarette smoke drifting through the theatre, and we would all stand up while the anthem played.

      Sometimes they played a short cartoon after the national anthem, like the "Hockey Sweater" or "The Cat Came Back."

  3. They'll get around it by yeejiun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hope these people realize that kids will get their hands on the games regardless of what the law says. I mean, if not a licensed copy, then a pirated copy off of bittorrent or something like that. At the end of the day, it's the parents that have to make sure that their kids don't spend their time on the wrong game, not the retailers.

    1. Re:They'll get around it by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      They almost certainly will.

      However, retailers still shouldn't be selling it to minors.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    2. Re:They'll get around it by TikiTDO · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree. Some kids will get around it.

      Those who are interested in computers, and enjoy figuring out how things work. Trust me when I say though, that is not the majority.

      Most kids know that there exists such a thing as the interweb and you can get free porn if you look hard enough.

      As they grow older they might learn more about downloading these games, but at that point they would already be able to buy the games on their own, or at least be relatively close to that point.

  4. Film Board Rating Video Games by leadfoot2004 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you read the story carefully, it is the Ontario Film Board that is rating video games. As I watched the CBC TV on this news story, the representative from the Ontario Film Board mentioned that Manhunt has every element that contributes to the R-rating, as in film: excessive foul language, grotesque violence, etc. If we were to rate video games the same way as film, then a lot of other games should have gotten the R-rating as well, yet this is the first video game that has received such a rating. This implies that they are looking for a quick and easy way to regulate the sale of violent game to minors, and the ESRB rating is not as effective as they like.

    1. Re:Film Board Rating Video Games by Miaowara_Tomokato · · Score: 3, Informative

      The ESRB rating seems to be increasingly an implementation of CYA policy for the marketers of games than anything else. If the Ontario Film Board has taken it upon themselves to rate a game, the message carries an implicit statement that the ESRB has become obsolete. It will be interesting to see whether other similar organizations follow in Ontario's footsteps to try to "re-regulate" video games. However, the problem in that is that it could easily become just a series of ratings on a game that are all equally ineffective. It is a band-aid rather than a cure for the real problem.

    2. Re:Film Board Rating Video Games by SScorpio · · Score: 2, Informative

      You should play the game before passing judgment on how/why they gave it that rating. Being a mid-20s gamer I like to think I'm pretty tough skinned about stuff but the game just sickened me when I played it.

      This game isn't about you just randomly running around like in an FPS blowing people up, sniping them in the head, etc. It's a stealth game where you sneak up on people to murder them. I have to say murder rather than kill to get the point across a little more since we're usually used to killing things in games.

      I remember that article that the NYTimes removed where the guy was complaining about Grand Theft Auto 3. Well, in this game you ARE the main character of a snuff film. You basically creep up on characters and using weapons like plastic bags, knifes, etc kill them silently. You are also rewarded in the game for more brutal kills like wrapping a plastic bag on a guys head then beating him down with punches and kicks and finally snapping his neck. Slitting people throats with the knife isn't much better either.

      I'm really surprised this game got away with an "M" (mature) rating in the US since it really deserves an "AO" (Adults Only).

      For the record I really enjoyed the Grand Theft Auto games. I've been pissed off by all the negative media exposure to the games. And finally am surprised at the total lack of media coverage and politician bickering about this game as it is FAR more violent and grotesque than GTA ever was.

      I do have to applaud RockStar for making such a game even in light of all the controversy surrounding GTA. They made a game that was darker, sicker, and far more violent than GTA ever was (State of Emergency was pure crap IMHO).

      So please try playing the game before saying, well a lot of games have killing, swearing, etc they shouldn't be given an adults only rating. The report just didn't go into how bad those things were in the game. I'm just waiting for the media to pickup on the game; they media antics should be much funnier than with GTA.

      As for me, I didn't care of the game and will not be playing it again. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

  5. My thoughts... by josh+glaser · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...I think it's good. I usually think that this whole videogame violence thing is blown out of proportion, and it is, but here, I think they made the right choice. Manhunt is just really disgusting - it's not at all like Grand Theft Auto, where the violence is humorous (a la a grown-up cartoon)...no, the violence here is disturbing...everybody I know who played it felt dirty, like they were some serial killer or something. It's really an uncomfortable game for most people I know. And the gameplay itself isn't that great (mediocre stealth fare), and it just seems like a cash-in on the media attention...yeah, I think Ontario was more than justified.

    On a side note, sometimes I think that (in the U.S., don't know much about how it's done in Canada) we should just switch to movie ratings for games. I don't know if it would be a good idea for the same board or whatever to rate them, but it's just that PG and R are more familiar to most people than E or M. And they are kinda on the same "scale" anyway (PG-13 = T, R = M), so it might be a good thing.

    Oh, and does anybody else feel that game ratings are a little...big? The dirtiest R-rated movie can get away with a little tiny square on the back of the box, but then videogames have to have a huge, ugly E or T or whatever plastered on the front and a large "descriptor" on the back. It's not that I'm against visability of the ratings, but I just think that videogames and movies should be treated more alike (it's annoying when Target refuses to sell M-rated games to minors, but don't have the same policy for R-rated movies, etc.)

    That was quite a rant there...enjoy.

    1. Re:My thoughts... by kboy1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The movie ratings (PG, R, etc.) are legally enforceable. The store owner can be fined or imprisoned for allowing the sale or rental of an R-rated product to a minor. Video game ratings are voluntarily provided suggestions to the consumer about the content of the game.

      So the reason video game ratings are so big is because the consumer has to see them or they mean nothing.

      Movie ratings can be small, because the consumer doesn't have to see them; the onus is on the storeowner to enfore them.

      Oh, and I'm an Ontarian, and I've never heard the anthem played at a movie theatre. And I'm pretty sure I've been to a "first showing of the day" (specifically, the midnight premiere of Star Wars Episode I).

    2. Re:My thoughts... by antime · · Score: 1
      Manhunt is just really disgusting (...) the violence here is disturbing...everybody I know who played it felt dirty, like they were some serial killer or something. It's really an uncomfortable game for most people I know.
      You know, maybe, just maybe that's one of the points of the whole game. People are always complaining games are seen as being only "for kids", but when someone tries something a bit more ambitious people start complaining about it.
    3. Re:My thoughts... by John+Gaming+Target · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The movie ratings (PG, R, etc.) are legally enforceable. The store owner can be fined or imprisoned for allowing the sale or rental of an R-rated product to a minor. Video game ratings are voluntarily provided suggestions to the consumer about the content of the game.

      Sorry, but that's bullshit. There is no law that "enforces" the MPAA ratings. It's enforced solely by the MPAA through the use of fines and the threat of withholding major movies from violators.

      Actually, much the game industry says they would do to offenders of the ESRB ratings. The movie industry is just better at it.

    4. Re:My thoughts... by Corngood · · Score: 1

      You may be right, but I don't see where he said 'MPAA' in his post. In fact, he specifically mentioned Ontario (Canada not being the last A in MPAA).

    5. Re:My thoughts... by Rayonic · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Manhunt is just really disgusting - it's not at all like Grand Theft Auto, where the violence is humorous (a la a grown-up cartoon)...no, the violence here is disturbing...

      Could it be (*gasp* *shock*) that violence in real life really is "disgusting"? Perhaps the designers were trying to make you feel bad about killing all those people?

      ...everybody I know who played it felt dirty, like they were some serial killer or something. It's really an uncomfortable game for most people I know.

      Why, it seems I'm right.
      --
      [PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
    6. Re:My thoughts... by Yaztromo · · Score: 1

      Oh, and I'm an Ontarian, and I've never heard the anthem played at a movie theatre. And I'm pretty sure I've been to a "first showing of the day" (specifically, the midnight premiere of Star Wars Episode I).

      The playing of the national anthem in movie theatres died out in Ontario sometime in the early-mid 80's. When I went to see the original Star Wars they played it. I guess you're just too young to remember ;).

      Yaz.

  6. Ontario by alphaseven · · Score: 3, Informative
    Hmm, this is not much different than what the ESRB is asking. The ESRB suggests Manhunt should be 17+ while the R rating in Ontario means 18+ (it's different from an MPAA R) so we're talking a difference of one year.

    Another interesting thing, in the U.S. ratings are voluntary but in Canada they're decided by the Provincial governments, and (in Ontario at least) they're a bit stricter than the U.S., i.e. a few of the more extreme American R-rated films (Eyes Wide Shut, Hannibal) and all(?) NC-17 films get the 18+ rating in Canada.

    Ironically, the 18+ rating is slapped on so many films it's not seen as a big deal. That's why Canada got the uncut version of American Psycho in theatres, while the producers wanted to avoid the NC-17 in the U.S., in Canada it was going to get rated 18+ anyway so there was no point in making cuts. Crash similarly had no problems in getting shown in Canadian theatres.

    Maybe we'll get 'Canadian' versions of games with extra nudity and violence, since the 18+ rating is the strictest available there's no reason to hold back.

    1. Re:Ontario by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhh... I don't know what movies you've been looking at but over the past few years, most of the movies that made it to theaters that were rated R in the US were rated AA in Ontario... They're getting to be a bit more common, but there's still far more movies rated R in theaters in the US than in Ontario.

      Remember the joke in the South Park movie about the Terrance and Phillip movie being rated R in the US, but not in Canada? That was more than just something they made up... the South Park movie was rated R in the US and AA in Ontario.

    2. Re:Ontario by Slashdot+Insider · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Hmm, this is not much different than what the ESRB is asking. The ESRB suggests Manhunt should be 17+ while the R rating in Ontario means 18+ (it's different from an MPAA R) so we're talking a difference of one year.
      Perhaps a small distinction, but unlike the ESRB rating, the rating from the Ontario Film Review Board was given by persons that actually played the game. That alone gives it a leg up in my books.
    3. Re:Ontario by alphaseven · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually imdb says i'm wrong about Hannibal and Eyes Wide Shut, that they were rated 18A (18 or older unless with an adult, like an R rating in the U.S.), but I could of sworn those movies had the harsher 18+ rating, anyway here's a list from imdb of Canadian R (18+) movies). Okay films like 8mm and Kill Bill got the harsher 18+ rating, along with Life of Brian!?

      And you're right a lot of films actually get a lighter rating in Ontario, I don't think swearing matters much, so an American R-rated film like 13 Conversations About One Thing, which has nearly no sex or violence but has some swearing, gets a lighter rating in Canada. Still violence will generally get a harsher rating.

    4. Re:Ontario by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've gotta be shitting me. Canadian TV doesn't have a problem showing T&A on the major networks. In the evening, it isn't uncommon to be watching a movie and see some tits or pussy on the screen. Compare that to the [ahem] "TBS Superstation" which has the nickname "The Bible Station" up here because they feel the need to censor the word "damn" and they cut out every bit of violence. Bunch of bible thumping pricks in the U.S.

    5. Re:Ontario by TwistedGreen · · Score: 1

      I would say that ratings are rather stricter in the US. I can't tell you how many times I've seen American commercials for a movie advertising it as "Rated R" when it's only rated AA (14+) in Canada. Though it depends largely on what kind of content is present, overall very few movies are rated 'R' in Canada.

    6. Re:Ontario by n0wak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > hey're a bit stricter than the U.S

      No they're not. While Matrix Reloaded was rated R down South (and got to become the most profitable R-rated movie), it was just 14A here. There's a bit of a cultural gap between the acceptance of violence and sexuality between Canada and US. I guess movies get judged more harshly on sexuality down south than here; but here, movies get judged more critically on violence. Especially brutal realistic violence, and not the cartoony Matrix-kind.

      Also, remember that these are *provincial* ratings, so they tend to vary. As you can imagine, in the more liberal Quebec, the ratings for sexual content are FAR less strict.

    7. Re:Ontario by mowph · · Score: 0, Redundant

      The biggest difference is that the ESRB rating is simply an advisory or suggestion for the audience. ESRB rating a game "M" has no legal effect on how it is sold. On the other hand, when the provincial Film Board gives it an "R" rating, it becomes illegal to sell the game to a minor. (In the case of a film, it's illegal to let a minor into an R-rated film at all, whether accompanied by a parent or not.)

      Most game shops don't want to risk a lawsuit over accidentally selling this game to a kid, so shops in Ontario are pulling it off the shelves and keeping it behind counters available on request or special order only. It's also illegal to display the game where kids might see it. This is why Rockstar is appealing the rating -- they are not only losing advertising space in shops, but they are probably losing a key market of kids who aren't adequately supervised by parents.

      Incidentally, video games are already in the jurisdiction of the Ontario Film Board. Remember, in Ontario, "film" means "cinematographic film, videotape and any other medium from which may be produced visual images that may be viewed as moving pictures and includes film that is used for advertising purposes." You could publish a pornographic flip-book and they could R-rate it. They aren't "overriding" or "sidestepping" the ESRB as some previous posters have suggested. They are, however, setting a precident by applying a film rating to a video game. They could also be setting an example for other provincial Film Boards to follow, which is why Rockstar is so worried.

    8. Re:Ontario by Deflagro · · Score: 1

      BTW, it's not the word "damn" they censor, it's the word GOD. Because you can damn something, but never use the word God and Damn in the same sentence... you may go to hell! oh no!

      I live in Texas and noticed that alot lately, it's pretty silly if you ask me. Watch a bunch of Iraqis get blown apart on the news, but don't say God damn! that's evil!

      --
      Der Tod ist der einzige Weg hier raus!
  7. Ontario? by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 0, Insightful
    This is the same crappy, overly conservative province that wouldn't let Madonna perform a concert.

    This is NOT a place where free expression is valued, let's just say that. I'm surprised they didn't launch a lawsuit against the makers, like Florida did with GTA Vice City.

    1. Re:Ontario? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      This is NOT a place where free expression is valued, let's just say that. I'm surprised they didn't launch a lawsuit against the makers, like Florida did with GTA Vice City.
      Wouldn't the conclusion of a reasonable person be that Florida is the problem?
    2. Re:Ontario? by TwistedGreen · · Score: 1

      I think it's safe to say that you have no idea what you're talking about.

    3. Re:Ontario? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, completely a conservative province: become the first place in North America to offer legal gay marriages, flirted with legalized marijuanna, and allows women to walk around topless (well, Toronto anyway).

    4. Re:Ontario? by hambonewilkins · · Score: 1
      Mod Parent up.

      I used to know a guy from, I kid you not, Orlando of all places who said of Florida:It's a nice place to visit... wait, no, it's not.

      --

      God Bless America. Why? Did it sneeze?
    5. Re:Ontario? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they would have launched a lawsuit like Florida, if say... the game was set in Ontario, like Vice City was set in Florida.

    6. Re:Ontario? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BC might have beat Ontario on the gay marriage issue... I can't quite remember which came back with the ruling first.

      And yes, the topless thing is provincial law, but it's only in hot weather.

    7. Re:Ontario? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Living in the northwest part of Florida, I will back your friend up on this. It's a hellhole down here.

  8. Rockstar Games Open Letter by WarPresident · · Score: 4, Funny

    Dear Ontario Film Review Board,

    We, and the stakeholders, thank you for dramatically increasing public interest in our addictively fun game of death, destruction, and mayhem. Slow sales have been a bit of a problem, but now, young adults everywhere are lusting after the (almost) unattainable beauty that is Manhunt for PS2. Coming soon for Xbox and PC.

    Sincerely,
    Rockstar Games

    --
    Here come da fudge!
    1. Re:Rockstar Games Open Letter by curtisk · · Score: 1
      Dear Ontario Film Review Board,

      We, and the stakeholders, thank you for dramatically increasing public interest in our addictively fun game of death, destruction, and mayhem. Slow sales have been a bit of a problem, but now, young adults everywhere are lusting after the (almost) unattainable beauty that is Manhunt for PS2. Coming soon for Xbox and PC.

      Sincerely, Rockstar Games

      EXACTLY....but now the Ontario film board have covered their asses from any backlash and put the responsibility on the retailers and parents "..we gave it an R rating, what else can we do?"

      --

      Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!

  9. A game Australians won't see by the_seal · · Score: 4, Informative

    Too bad in Australia they refuse to give an R rating to games.
    We didn't see GTA until they had removed a scene in which you see a car rocking, windows steamed and can then get out and kill the woman and take the money. Other games have suffered a similar fate, like Carmageddon.
    This is a strange fate for a country in which 18-24 year olds make up a very large portion of the gaming market - particularly console gaming.

    1. Re:A game Australians won't see by Snowmit · · Score: 1

      We didn't see GTA until they had removed a scene in which you see a car rocking, windows steamed and can then get out and kill the woman and take the money.

      "Scene"? I dont' remember any of the cinematics involving sex with hookers followed by murder. The only way to construct such a "scene" is if *you* choose to do it. The only way to prevent such a scene is to take out of of the elements (ability to have sex/ability to kill people).

      I'm curious, which element was dropped in Australia?

      --
      I have a lot of opinions about Cyborgs and Architects
    2. Re:A game Australians won't see by lucas+teh+geek · · Score: 0

      they removed the abililty to pick up hookers in the 2nd australian release after their recall of the first release. i dont know what the grandparent poster was talking about when he mentioned a "scene" involving it, nor to do remember the windows fogging up at all in the uncensored copy

      --
      TIAEAE!
    3. Re:A game Australians won't see by the_seal · · Score: 2, Informative

      My bad. I was doing this purely from memory at the time and the sensationalist news reports. Here is the correct reason:

      Grand Theft Auto III was refused classification on the grounds that you could pick up a hooker in your car, do your business, then afterwards beat her to death to get your money back. This is seen as being on par with rape. Rockstar simply edited out the coding that let the hooker enter your car, and re-released the game, with a classification of MA(15+).

  10. Re:It's rated "R" here too by masterQba · · Score: 0, Troll

    more like R for Retarded

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    xb0x
  11. You'll need to do better than that! by Lewisham · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As a gun-fearing UK-type, I'm actually quite astonished that this is new for you guys. It's no wonder Senator Libermann hasn't been locked up yet!

    Ever since Night Trap on the Mega CD, games have been regulated by the Britsh Board of File Classification. They're *video* games, and have been treated as such under the law. The publishers submit their games to be rated voluntarily in the main, but the BBFC would have had no qualms about slamming an 18 certificate on Manhunt, submission or no.

    I don't see how people can seriously argue against this. I now fully understand why the whole selling games to minors (was that Washington?) was such a big deal! Here I was thinking that retailers were just disregarding the law :) These games shouldn't be in the hands of minors, a voluntary ESRB rating simply isn't enough to justify controlling a character who chokes people to death with a plastic bag and then the player is "rewarded" with a pretty cut-scene of it. The fact that I personally find that quite disturbing and morally reprehensible doesn't really bother me, it's been given an 18 certificate and firmly stamped as being for adults. What more can you ask for? Censorship above that which we have in movies now? No thanks.

    The current problem in the UK in regards to this are the retailers (hence my previous confusion). They're quite happy to sell 18 games to parents who'll then give the game to their children, without even pointing out the certificate in the first place. I always made a point of telling parents that the game was certified 15 or 18, and the response was always the same: "Really? But it's just a game!" I'd then proceed to tell them the actual content of Grand Theft Auto III, and that was the end of that. The game would be put back, and not given into the hands of the child whom the BBFC has decided really shouldn't play it. And that's how it should be.

    Not that the blame lies entirely there. Games magazines aimed at minors were shipping with demo discs that contained adult content and had a 15 certificate. I had to refuse selling a magazine to kids because of irresponsible disc compilation.

    So yeah, the system in the UK doesn't work, but the idea is there :)

    1. Re:You'll need to do better than that! by Rayonic · · Score: 1
      a voluntary ESRB rating simply isn't enough to justify controlling a character who chokes people to death with a plastic bag and then the player is "rewarded" with a pretty cut-scene of it

      Yes, goodness forbid that violence is displayed in a disturbing and repulsive manner. Violence should always be fun and whimsical.

      A game that invokes guilt and repulsion when you are forced to perform a grisly murder... well, that has no place in civilized society.
      --
      [PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
    2. Re:You'll need to do better than that! by Lewisham · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? That's just the way *I* feel about it. The fact is, the game does still follow basic carrot-and-stick game mechanics. You do well, you get a cut-scene. I'm under the impression that if you start giving this stuff out to children/teenagers during formative ages, then something bad is bound to happen at some point. And I've never felt that way before about any game.

      The argument for Manhunt is that it happens in movies, why not games? I agree, these games do deserve to be released. But games need to have as strict regulation as movies do.

      Could I play Manhunt? Probably not. I don't want to be put in a position where my hand is forced in such a way that I *have* to *murder*. Manhunt breaks some very new ground and taboos, it's simply not enough to apply the old rules, *especially* if that means that minors have easy access.

    3. Re:You'll need to do better than that! by MotherInferior · · Score: 1

      Ok, that's it. Either you provide proof (written statement from both development and publisher) that this was some kind of morality play meant to have the player feel guilt and remorse, or face the wrath of goodness. Meanwhile, let me know how goodness can forbid anything. Last time I checked, the expression was "God forbid". Try that.

      Spare me. Rockstar Games is just another friggin "evil corporation" that's out to make a buck. Stop shoving your pucky around and trying to pass it off as art.

      • Why would I (or anyone else) buy a game to make me feel guilty?
      • Why would I continue to play the game (the purpose of buying the game) when I feel guilty for doing so?

      Stop trying to rationalize depraved corporate behavior. The game sounds like it's sociopathic. Why not just create a game based on John Wayne Gacy's life? Call it Balloon Baby Blood Bobble. It'll be a hit. Make lots of money.

      So what if it desensitizes us. Why should serial killers shock us? They're people, too, ya know. I personally know that Ted Bundy loved his cat. He was a good person under all that cold-blooded psychotic murderous zeal gruffness.

  12. how they decided? by bigbigbison · · Score: 1

    I don't really care what the game is rated. However, from reading the article the WAY the rating was decided seems really problematic.

    "If you've seen this video you realize, quite frankly, it's really disturbing," said Ontario Consumer Minister Jim Watson.

    "Some of the graphics that I was shown should alert parents that this kind of a video is for older children," he said.

    This seems to indicate that, once again, people made a judgement on a game without actually playing it. While maybe someone else played the game, the article doesn't seem to indicate that. Judging a game based on watching film clips of it is like judging a film based on the script. This rating is theoretically supposed to keep chiildren from PLAYING the game not WATCHING it. Therefore, the very least they could do would be to actually play it themselves before giving it a rating.

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    http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
    1. Re:how they decided? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Have YOU played the game? I'll point out that all of the money shots do take the form of cutscenes, BTW.

      But, in all seriousness, how would YOU rate a game in which you play a supposedly executed felon, who is then forced to be the title star of a snuff film, who then has to survive the night by stalking and killing, in the most imaginative and violent ways possible, a succession of psychotic criminals?

      This game makes NO bones about being all of this, and no

      Note that I'm a civil libertarian who doesn't believe in censorship; only common sense.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    2. Re:how they decided? by bigbigbison · · Score: 1

      As I said, I have NO issues with rating the game. My problem is that they did not play the game. If they had played the game and given it that rating then it would be fine.

      They do not rate movies based on trailers or the script. They watch the entire thing. I think that videogames are worthy of at least being experienced in the way that they are intended to be experiences -- that is played -- before they are judged.

      That they seem to have judged it based on watching it is the problem, not that they judged it.

      --
      http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
    3. Re:how they decided? by FortissimoWily · · Score: 1

      "This seems to indicate that, once again, people made a judgement on a game without actually playing it."
      Well, the ESRB don't play the games they rate, either. From their FAQ;

      To get a game certified with an ESRB rating, publishers fill out a detailed questionnaire explaining exactly what's in the game, and submit it to ESRB along with actual videotaped footage of the game, showing the most extreme content and an accurate representation of the context and product as a whole. Working independently, three trained raters then view the game footage and recommend the rating and content descriptors they believe are most appropriate. ESRB then compares the raters' recommendations to make sure that there's consensus. Usually, the raters agree and their recommendation becomes final. However, when the raters recommend different ratings, additional raters may be requested to review the game in order to reach broader consensus. Once consensus on a rating and content descriptors is reached, ESRB issues an official rating certificate to the game's publisher.

      When the game is ready for release to the public, publishers send copies of the final product to the ESRB. The game packaging is reviewed to make sure the ratings are displayed in accordance with ESRB standards. Additionally, ESRB's in-house game experts randomly play the final games to verify that all the information provided during the rating process was accurate and complete.

    4. Re:how they decided? by bigbigbison · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that. So that seems to add some credibility to those occasional articles that claim that the content of a game is not accurately reflected in the ratings. Inderesting.

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      http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
    5. Re:how they decided? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Any game which bills itself as an 'interactive snuff film' can be rated based on that alone.

      And my understanding is that they did watch the game being played (they might not have had the mad skills to play it themselves, after all.)

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  13. R rating? by obsid1an · · Score: 1

    No, I don't think minors should be playing games like this. Yes, this game deserved an R rating. How come then, movie theaters can't be sued for allowing a minor into the theater? There is such a double standard for video games vs. movies. How come the parents need to be responsible enough to check movie ratings but not video game ratings? Considering that video games cost about 10x as much as a movie and need to be played at home, usually in the same house as their parents, it seems like it should be the other way around if anything.

  14. Re: Note this is NOT the MPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    This is in Ontario Canada. Movies there [well, "here" for me] are rated based by a provincial (ie: "state") organization (or is it federal? I'm not sure). I don't know the official name off-hand.

    Anyways, the point is that you can't go and talk about the competency of the MPAA and then compare it to this, a wholly different ratings group.

    In fact, I'd like to point out that while many movies in America get R ratings for minor sexual content, the very same movies here in Ontario (and most if not all of Canada) get rated PG. Frankly, the ratings group here is very reasonable. Probably because they aren't under pressure from outside influences like the Christian Right in the US.

    Here's just one of many examples:

    EUROTRIP, rated R by the MPAA
    http://movies.go.com/movies/E/eurotrip_2004/ index. html

    EUROTRIP, rated "14A" in Ontario, Canada:
    http://www.famousplayers.com/showtimes/fp .asp?city =7FE2B2F8-2044-47A7-9FE2-0205993AFDBB%3BKitchener& date=3%2F4%2F2004&theatre=B3658782-5D28-47A2-8ECB- D4CD95341668&movie=FD7C5D9E-F663-43B6-8B90-9225802 84419&type=0&citydesc=Ontario+-+Kitchener&theatred esc=SilverCity+Kitchener&moviedesc=Eurotrip

  15. Calling All Canadian Lawyers! by John+Gaming+Target · · Score: 1

    While that is true, the MPAA owns the copyright to the ratings G, PG, PG-13, R, and NC-17.

    So at the very least, the MPAA sanctions and approves of the ratings the Ontario Board gives.

    But maybe a kindly Canadian lawyer can come by and settle this debate.

  16. Why do we call it a "Video" Game? by mowph · · Score: 1
    I concur, although why the Ontario Film Review board? Im not sure having videogame ratings being assigned by the film review board is a good precedent....

    ...This group probably doesn't have experience with games and dealing with their level of interactivity....

    Simply put, they are reviewing the video content and accompanying soundtrack of the game, as they are authorized to do under Ontario's Theatres Act. That's what the film board does. The ESRB rates the game's general content, including gameplay.

    You may have noticed that the ESRB rating has not been "overridden" or "sidestepped", it is displayed side-by-side with the Film Board rating. It's just that the Film Board's R-rating has a lot more punch ($25,000 fines for selling vs. a suggestion not to sell), which is probably why Rockstar wants to appeal the rating. I wonder what grounds they will try to use? That the game provides education or instruction?

  17. Ontario, USA??? by mowph · · Score: 1
    The movie ratings (PG, R, etc.) are legally enforceable. The store owner can be fined or imprisoned for allowing the sale or rental of an R-rated product to a minor. Video game ratings are voluntarily provided suggestions to the consumer about the content of the game.

    Sorry, but that's bullshit. There is no law that "enforces" the MPAA ratings. It's enforced solely by the MPAA through the use of fines and the threat of withholding major movies from violators.

    You're especially right when you're talking about Canada. MPAA has no legal (or other) power here, which is why we don't use their ratings. The article in question is about a rating made by the Ontario film board, which is in fact legally enforceable through the Ontario Theatres Act, Paragraph 47 Section (1):

    No film exchange or agent or employee of a film exchange shall distribute a film classified in such class as may be prescribed by the regulations for the purposes of this section to any person apparently under the age of 18 years. 2000, c. 26, Sched. B, s. 19 (16).

    Note that "film" includes video games as well. Stores could also be charged with a civil offense for exhibiting the film to minors (demoing the video game in public).

    Surprise, surprise... not all democracies work exactly the same as the US.

  18. parental control by HomeGroove · · Score: 1
    This horse is already a bloody pulp from beating it so much, but it must be brought up again.

    It's all about parental control. Parents need to be aware of what's going on in their living room or the kids room. they need to be aware of what games they are playing and even play it themselves before they hand the game over to the kid.

    I know... what happens when Johnny is over at Jimmy's house and he has Manhunt. We just had a daughter (and, being a gamer myself I hope she's into video games) and, yeah she'll be presented with all sorts of stuff when I'm not around once she is older (violent video games, drugs, alcohol, some of that god awful music those kids are listening to nowadays [damn i'm getting older]). But, I hope, I raise my kid right and when presented with these types of things, she'll make the correct decision.

    Sure, when I was a kid, I listened to all sorts of foul-mouthed music (Hell, I still do). I remember listening to NWA REALLY loud on my walkman and my mom hearing the line "We want to F--- you Easy/B---- I want to F--- you too!" And yes, the tape was confiscated, but I was raised right. I knew that it was all an act, just like a video game is a video game.

    It's hard to stay away from violence, sex, etc. in today's society and I think kids growing up now are forced to grow up much faster than any previous generation. I just think you need to educate your children on what is right and what is real. Also not to oversaturate your child with violence, sex, drugs..

    And limit how the media controls your child. Make them read books, play outside, and limit video game play.

    /me stops beating that dead horse and gets off the soapbox.

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    Spam subject of the moment: Offshore account secrets -nashville disrupt

  19. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear The Office of Film and Literature Classification of New Zealand

    See what the Canadians have done. See what the Australians have done.

    For once, we have a reason to be like the Australians.

    Please follow suit.

    Yours faithfully

    An Anonymous Coward

  20. Disgusting by blobbo · · Score: 1

    Did anyone actually catch the movies of this game in action? It's physically revolting. I've played several violent video games, and I'm able to distinguish between what's real and what's fake. I love Deus Ex, even though it's a rather gory game. But this game emphasises plain brutality.

    It is a perfectly legitimate concern. Not letting 12 year old boys get a kick out of jamming a crowbar through someone's head and watching blood pour out isn't just being "moral," it's simply common decency. Just typing that makes me sick.

  21. so... we agree? by JVert · · Score: 1

    so... everyone agrees this is a good thing. Even the trolls agree?

  22. Seems to have Better than Average Gameplay by toiletsalmon · · Score: 1

    The reviews seem pretty good, so it seem to have some redeeming value as an actual game:

    http://gametab.com/ps2/manhunt/1736/

    Overal about a 77% rating

    84%
    "Manhunt is an audacious game that backs up its extremely violent subject matter with solid stealth action gameplay." -GameSpot

    85%
    "In the end, Manhunt is a highly polished strategy game of hide-and-seek, kill-or-be-killed gameplay. It's narrow in focus, but deep in its specialty." -IGN

    65%
    "You will, indeed, feel like a convict trying to survive...Still, the shock is so morbid and gruesome that you must make a moral decision about the game, especially once the killing gets boring." -lawrence.com

    81%
    "It's a mixed bag for me, but I'd suggest a rental for you to see if you like the controls better than I did." -Next Level Gaming

    90%
    "I haven't been this addicted to a game in some time, and I'm looking forward to wrapping up this review so I can get back to playing it." -Worth Playing

    82%
    "Rockstar has effectively taken the stealth formula out of its designated confines to produce a highly entertaining, albeit niche audienced, stealth-based game that makes Grand Theft Auto look tame in comparison." -Gaming Nexus

    70%
    "It's not for everybody, but if Splinter Cell's smug militarism and MGS's idiotic plot got on your nerves, or you feel like you'd make a good snuff movie star, pick it up." -GamesDomain

    50%
    "Escape the hell of Carcer City before boredom and internal disquiet overwhelm you." -1UP

    80%
    "Definitely a rent-before-leaping kind of thing, this game will force a polemic reaction. Kudos to Rockstar North for doing something different, even if it's not going to be a mainstream top-seller like Grand Theft Auto." -Gamenikki

    88%
    "Manhunt is extremely violent and even a bit disturbing, but it is also one of the finest games to grace the Playstation 2 in some time, and is well worth the price of admission. " -netjak

    80%
    "Manhunt is a survival horror masterpiece." -Gamer Feed

    75%
    "Manhunt's a great game if you can stomach its violent style and are looking for a game to genuinely get the hairs on the back of your neck creeping up, but it does have its limitations." -GameSpot AU

    80%
    "...if you can get over the sometimes repetitious nature of the game, Manhunt provides some of the most intense and subversive stealth gaming to date." -GameSpy

    70%
    "When it's firing on all cylinders Manhunt is a disturbingly entertaining take on the stealth action genre with the trademark high quality Rockstar production that mask some of its shortcomings." -EuroGamer

    83%
    "Fans of stealth games will have a good time with it, and the gameplay is solid enough and easy enough to learn that you can jump right in and start playing." -GameZone Online

    90%
    "Clever, gory and thoroughly engaging." -UGO

    80%
    "While drawing comparisons to Metal Gear Solid 2 might be a little excessive, stealth action fans that can handle the touchy subject matter should at least give Manhunt a chance, as it's deeper than it would first appear." -Avault