Novell's Chris Stone at the MySQL Users Conference

An anonymous reader writes "According to the MySQL User's Conference page, Chris Stone of Novell, the guy behind Open Source at Novell who was responsible for the purchase of SUSE and Ximian, will be speaking at the MySQL conference. Perhaps we finally get to see what Novell is planning to do with Linux?" (That conference is taking place in mid-April, in Orlando.)

Comments

Still waters

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

run deep. Can't wait to what Novell does after they've gathered all of this knowledge and all of these developers to their helm.
Maybe offer an Open Source replacement for Active Directory?

Re:Still waters

[Huk]

That would be a replacement for NDS, not AD. NDS is the replacement for AD. Novell did it first. I don't particularly like it, but it works fairly well.

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe offer an Open Source replacement for Active Directory?

I wouldn't hold your breath. Novell is a proprietary company. Notice they didn't purchase Red Hat an open source company, who has adhered strictly to the open source philosophy e.g. not even including mp3 capability with XMMS. Novell purchased Suse, who still keeps Yast nice and proprietary. I see two proprietary companies taking what they can, but to some extent not wanting to share completely with the other children.

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

run deep.

rolling stone ... ?

Re:Still waters

[cbreaker]

Why take things so litteraly? I think he means "an alternative to AD" since most people don't use Netware anymore.

I think NDS is pretty good. As simple or complex as you need it to be. (AD on the other hand is complicated from the start.)

Re:Still waters

[DShard]

NDS has been deprecated for years. E-Directory is the Novell directory now. E-directory uses a DB made by (I think) Brigham young uni for Genealogy research. You are right about MS was _way_ after novells entrance into the market. The real problem with AD is it is a horrible crossbread between a directory and their old domain system and that it isn't particularly standards conforment (surprise!)

Re:Still waters

[Gramie2]

Is it true that Active Directory really stores all the information in a MS Access database? Seems hard to believe, considering the security risk.

Re:Still waters

[cbreaker]

"The real problem with AD is it is a horrible crossbread between a directory and their old domain system"

Not only that, but the fact that AD is filled with nonsense.. much like the Windows Registry. Why couldn't they have made something that was more refined, slick, and easier to manage? They had every opportunity and they blew it big time.

Oh well, that's Microsoft for ya.

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

Access and AD both use jet. Both where does the security problem come in - if someone can get direct access to the data then they can read passwords whatever the format and if they don't have direct access what does the underlying format matter.

Re:Still waters

[222]

Im not so sure it would be open source, but i can almost promise you we'll see novell providing directory services for linux. Flame all you want if Novell ever decides to provide closed source software for linux, but keep this in mind.
They appear to be acting honorably and in the best interest of OSS, and they can provide key components that Linux NEEDS. Its a good thing ;)

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

The real problem with AD is it is a horrible crossbread

What is crossbread? Is this some new kind of pasty product?

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

We all ready have a alternative to AD.

It's called OpenLDAP.

NDS, and MS's crappy copy if it (AD), are both LDAP servers with a database of users and objects that they running in the background.

OpenLDAP is Linux's implementation of it and can be used with linux distros my modifing the PAM authentifiaction rules of you computer.

Also by adding Unix services to MS's AD you can use AD to authenticate Linux users and services against. And newer versions of SAMBA can provide the AD functionality of a w2k server in most ways.

Plus Linux can use the old-fasion NIS stuff that is traditionally used for Unix domains.

Re:Still waters

[bernywork]

It uses Jet, the same database format as what is used in Exchange. If you want more information a couple of technet searches should see you good. Note the use of edbutil to fix up active directory databases, and eseutil to fix Exchange database issues. If you look up a few of the articles on the net they also say that Active Directory uses the Jet database system as well.

There is another post above mine saying people can get access to passwords etc. Yes true to some degree, but the password isn't stored in plaintext, its stored encrypted. So you either have to have physical access to the box, a tape backup (and hope the tape data isn't encrypted) or you need admin access. If you have admin access already it doesn't matter as you can reset passwords, or otherwise you can at least using something like pwdump and get a copy of the password list anyway. You shouldn't have physical access to the box if you aren't an admin either. So really, it isn't that insecure.

Really, this isn't any more insecure than anything else. The password variables I don't believe passwords can be queried via. LDAP either. It just returns the data as "binary value".

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

And newer versions of SAMBA can provide the AD functionality of a w2k server in most ways.

Do what? Samba can not function as an AD server in ANY way. It can be a AD domain member, yes, but it can not serve the role as an AD server--ie, group policies, etc.

Re:Still waters

[PygmySurfer]

Actually, Novell has been providing directory services for Linux for years.

This page lists the supported platforms, and the requirements for each platform.

Re:Still waters

[Gramie2]

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I just had a knee-jerk "Access == Bad" reaction. I suppose that if the place the AD database is stored is secure, then the database itself is secure, kind of like a shadow password file.

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

OpenLDAP is a great project, don't get me wrong - however, eDirectory is much, much more scalable than OpenLDAP.

NDS and eDirectory are not just LDAP servers - in fact, NDS provided no LDAP capabilities (there was a bolt-on NLM on NetWare to provide LDAPv2 access to it at one point). eDirectory provides a fully-compliant LDAPv3 interface. But to say that eDirectory is just an LDAP server is like saying that a Porsche is just a car.

eDirectory provides many additional interfaces, including SOAP, XML, ADSI, NDAP (Novell's DAP), and many others.

Re:Still waters

[k_head]

AD is just a smelly hack. I strongly suspect that all the developers of AD were on LSD the whole time they were coding it.

There really is no other explanation as why it's such a tangled ball of barbed wire.

Re:Still waters

[passthecrackpipe]

It is my experience that when people say "I want a directory for my infrstructure" (especially management), they really mean to say "i want a nice, easy, flexible and most of all pretty way of managing users for my systems. OpenLDAP, for all its nice features lacks in most cases the out of the box functionality (it is there, but you have to do a lot of work to make it happen for you) that most people would want. It lacks in most distros the default schemas all set up and ready to go for system authentication. It lacks the nice gui that will do this management in a comprehensive and consistent manner, with rule checking and semantics checking etc.Now, I'm not flaming OpenLDAP, as it is a robust and solid piece of directory work that is simply love to hate, however don't confuse the backend and engine with an "enterprise level solution".

Re:Still waters

[Jellybob]

This is going to be completely useless (I can't claim to have much experience with LDAP, having given up setting it up every now and then), but I did see a program that does just that - provide a pretty frontend for OpenLDAP directories, and I know Red Hat/FC1 have the option of selecting LDAP as an authentication method during setup.

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a hot cross bun, but you get a whole loaf of it.

Re:Still waters

[Erik Hensema]

I'd LOVE to see a Linux distribution based entirely on an OpenLDAP infrastructure. Most of the technoligy is already there, it just has to be pieced together in a nice ready-to-go package.

Here's what we already have:

• OpenLDAP server. Nice and solid, but too hard to administer.
• PAM. My workstation had been running for months without a /etc/passwd file. No problem whatsoever. Simply use pam_ldap and nss_ldap and you're set
• Samba. Intergrates nicely with LDAP. When running as a PDC, Samba will change your unix password when your change your windows pass, and you can have linux to change your windows pass when you change your unix pass. This gives nice and transparent intergration without the user ever knowing that his password is stored in no less than three different hashes.
• LDAP admin frontend. This is where the trouble starts. Mosts frontends are generic and therefore complex. Most admins simply want to store user accounts into a LDAP database, including telephone numbers, home address, etc. No really good interface which makes this task an easy one yet exists, AFAIK. A lot of bad ones do, however.

YaST however does already have a simply LDAP tool to create users. YaST also makes setting up a LDAP client a breeze. Combined with Novell's knowledge on directories this could lead to an interesting development.

Re:Still waters

[Lussarn]

I use direcory administrator. I wouldn't say it's a wonderfull piece of software but it gets the work done.

Re:Still waters

[Ed Avis]

I don't understand what makes an LDAP directory so great for storing user details. At a place where I once worked we stored details in a relational database (Postgres) and that seemed to work well. There are probably other database systems that could be used too. Why LDAP?

Re:Still waters

[ahillen]

Novell purchased Suse, who still keeps Yast nice and proprietary.

1. YAST might be proprietary, but it comes with the source and you can share it as long as you don't charge for it (and you can modify it and share the modifications)... I just say that because many people seem to think that YAST is a traditional closed-source only-available-for-money-from-SuSE type of application.

2. SuSE keeps a somewhat stricter control (which boils down to: only SuSE is allowed to SELL it, others can only distribute it free of charge) on their setup program for their distribution, since this is the part the are able to differentiate from the other distributions. Apart from that they contribute a lot to different open source projects (Linux kernel, Xfree,KDE...), so calling them a proprietary company is a bit... strange.

3. I think the reason for Novell buying SuSE is more based on opportunities (what company is available to buy) and the technical merit of SuSE. I don't think an evil, proprietary company bought a like-minded other (which seems to be the spin you want to give it).

Re:Still waters

[passthecrackpipe]

Well, now that you reminded me ;-) SUSE do have some very cool directory/user management stuff against OpenLDAP - SuSE Linux Standard Server and SuSE Linux OpenExchange Server have a very nice management environment, that uses Samba, OpenLDAP, and all the other usual suspects and slap a pretty sane management frontend against it. it will do Windows Domains, so your windows users should be happy, and will also do Linux users. there are still some issues with using the same credentials against linux as well as windows, and some other minor details, but on the whole it works pretty well......

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an idiot. eDirectory does NOT use Jet. Pull your head out of your MCSE bootcamp books. WTF would Novell use a Microsoft db for their directory? And WTF would Microsoft let them?

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

1. YAST might be proprietary, but it comes with the source and you can share it as long as you don't charge for it (and you can modify it and share the modifications)... I just say that because many people seem to think that YAST is a traditional closed-source only-available-for-money-from-SuSE type of application.

So then it is essentially still proprietary becaause unlike other oper source applications anyone can use it. I bet RMS would disagree with your view on what is truely free and open source.

2. SuSE keeps a somewhat stricter control (which boils down to: only SuSE is allowed to SELL it, others can only distribute it free of charge) on their setup program for their distribution, since this is the part the are able to differentiate from the other distributions. Apart from that they contribute a lot to different open source projects (Linux kernel, Xfree,KDE...), so calling them a proprietary company is a bit... strange.

Yeah, I am sure that would hold up in court. Ummm yor honor even though we are selling a Linux distro and we include Yast as the installer it is not actually being sold to the customer. We are selling a product only after a few tracks on the CD. In addition we modified it, so it is not completely like the original Yast.

3. I think the reason for Novell buying SuSE is more based on opportunities (what company is available to buy) and the technical merit of SuSE. I don't think an evil, proprietary company bought a like-minded other (which seems to be the spin you want to give it).

Your cheap jab is indicative of what a moron you are.

Re:Still waters

[Lennie]

Because LDAP is faster and easier to replicate.

Re:Still waters

[Clover_Kicker]

LDAP isn't a way to store the user database, it's a well defined way to query the user database.

Re:Still waters

[ahillen]

1.
So then it is essentially still proprietary becaause unlike other oper source applications anyone can use it.
???
I guess you wanted to say that it is still proprietary because unlike open source not anyone can use it, right?
(Which is not correct, since everybody can use it, but nobody except SuSE can sell it for money)

I bet RMS would disagree with your view on what is truely free and open source.
I can't find the phrase were I said that it is truly free and open source. I just stated what is effectively allowed and not allowed in the Yast license and even acknowledged that that might qualify for the software to be proprietary (I don't know the exact definition when something is proprietary, so I can't give a definite answer)

2.
Yeah, I am sure that would hold up in court. Ummm yor honor even though we are selling a Linux distro and we include Yast as the installer it is not actually being sold to the customer. We are selling a product only after a few tracks on the CD. In addition we modified it, so it is not completely like the original Yast.
What are you talking about? Of course it is not allowed to sell a Linux distribution what contains Yast as the installer, that's the whole point of the license. You are only allowed to give it away free of charge, regardless whether you have modified it or not. But that doesn't change that they do a lot for the open source community.

3.
Your cheap jab is indicative of what a moron you are.
Sorry, but insults are no substitution for arguments. Your other comment left to me the impression that you see Novell buying SuSE as two somewhat suspicious companies teaming up to exploit the open source community. You had the opportunity to clarify this point, but you choose to miss this one.

Re:Still waters

[SphericalCrusher]

Exactly. Whatever Novell does with Linux will be a good thing. Look at SuSE for instance.

I think once the SCO vs. Novell lawsuit finally finishes, Novell can get back to doing more for the world.

Re:Still waters

[Erik Hensema]

Yeah, but I'm lazy so I also say I store data in SQL. Sue me.

Re:Still waters

[natmsincome.com]

The bigest difference is that LDAP is locked down and is a standard (apart from the fact that it's a different type of database - not relational)

Eg. If you use the posix schema you can use it and pam for authenication.

There are also standard for Samba, Email contacts etc.

Sure you can do it all yourself but if you want to get two different product you download to just work eg Netscape LDAP server and linux PAM to work you need standards

Re:Still waters

[Anonymous Coward]

And eDirectory, the alternative to AD that Novell has been selling for years, doesn't require NetWare. Novell is no longer the "how-much-NetWare-would-you-like-with-that" company.

Interesting

[SisyphusShrugged]

By making these moves they seem to be positioning themselves to be in a similar position to IBM, at least as someone at the forefront of Linux development and usage.

This is an intelligent move as it allows them to move into an area (one of the few in the computing industry) not yet monopolised by Micro$oft!

ZDNet Face-to-Face

[LinuxXPHybrid]

He appeared in ZDNet's Face-to-Face several months ago and he was talking about Novell's Linux strategy in the interview; here's the link http://zdnet.com.com/1200-1110-5083063.html (You need to scroll down one screen or so).

Re:ZDNet Face-to-Face

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait to what Novell does after they've gathered all of this knowledge and all of these developers to their helm. Maybe offer an Open Source replacement for Active Directory.

Re:ZDNet Face-to-Face

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would they open source it? They close everything else of value.

Re:ZDNet Face-to-Face

[Tagren]

I like Scott Mcnealy's face at the picture at the bottom... search for *Scott McNealy believes his company*.

"How long do I have to sit here"

--

Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[oldosadmin]

I don't know about you, but Novell is probably the only company I'd trust with this large a slice of the linux pie. They got royally screwed over by Microsoft (market share wise), and I'm sure more than one exec up there has thought about dethroning Gates.

Plus, they bought one of the best implementations of Gnome and a great KDE implementation. I can see Novell bringing the linux desktop together in many ways.

Anyone wanna bet we'll be seeing a Knome 4.0 release rather than a Gnome 4.0 and KDE 4.0?

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[Anonymous Coward]

To answer that last question: no.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[Anonymous Coward]

You trust them because they want to dethrone MS? That's pretty stupid if you ask me. There's a lot of companies out there that would love to dethrone Gates and Co. That doesn't mean that if/when that day comes businessmen worldwide will be running into the streets chanting open source. As bad as MS is, I'm convinced that Oracle would be far worse, and while IBM has a good name in the Open Source community now, I'm not convinced they'd handle that type of power again any better than they did the first time around. Novell wants what every business wants, money and influence. That doesn't make them evil but it does mean we need to keep a close eye on them.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[bsharitt]

Anyone wanna bet we'll be seeing a Knome 4.0 release rather than a Gnome 4.0 and KDE 4.0?


I was hoping for GDE 4.0

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[Erratio]

I don't see dethroning Gates as a motive which would inspire one to stick to the open source mentality. Collectively among the Linux, etc. community it's a good goal, but if that were a driving force behind a company then there would be definitely interest in maintaining an amount of power which conflicts with the communal aspect. The main motivation has to be something more along the lines of wanting the best software and realizing (or thinking) that open source is the way for that.

Novell may be a good company for this because it seems as though they have a lot more to gain than their likely perceived losses, considering their current small foundation in these industries.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[cbreaker]

"The main motivation has to be something more along the lines of wanting the best software and realizing (or thinking) that open source is the way for that."

While nice, this has never and will never be the reason a company ever does anything. However, if companies feel they have to do OSS to stay competitive then the end result could very well be better software, so I suppose it works out in the end.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[JanneM]

Anyone wanna bet we'll be seeing a Knome 4.0 release rather than a Gnome 4.0 and KDE 4.0?

Won't happen. Many of the basic differences between the projects aren't one of degrees, where you can find a middle ground. For toolkit, for example, you would need to choose between GTK and Qt - there is no average or middle ground there. Had either been significantly better than the other, it would have been easier, but, flame wars aside, both are mature, complete toolkits.

And whichever way you choose, you loose most - if not all - of the people who enjoy working with the other toolkit, leaving the community just as split as before. In fact, you end up worse, due to buildup of hard feelings and bruised egos from the unifying attempt.

No, the right way is through freedesktop.org - define standards that any desktop should adhere to and infrastructure technologies they should support, and let people go wild with their projects. Sort of like defining an open document format rather than standardizing on one, and only one, word processor.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[bgeer]

I sure hope you are the only one. Nobody should ever trust a company to do anything other than try to make money. Novell would screw Linux and sell us all into cocoa plantation slavery if they could double their profits doing it. What's more it is very doubtful that they're nursing a grudge against MS, more likely they just see Linux as the only way to escape the inevitable Netscapification of all of their products.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[craXORjack]

What's more it is very doubtful that they're nursing a grudge against MS

This is true. Years ago they realized how self destructive it was to treat MS as an enemy when they were dependent on Windows for client development and in porting their server products to NT. When I was there for training some of the Novell employees I met were ex-Microsoft employees who were born in Utah. Maybe they just got tired of the rain in Seattle or wanted to go home and find a nice Mormon girl to marry. I don't know. But Novell as a corporation doesn't seem to hold any grudges against Gates and Co.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[Anonymous Coward]

Had either been significantly better than the other, it would have been easier, but, flame wars aside, both are mature, complete toolkits.

Bullshit. QT is clearly the better toolkit, but Novell won't touch it with a ten foot pole because of license issues.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you need to trust Novell? They can't snatch Linux away from you. At most they could just drop Ximian and Suse from producing anything Linux related and then what? Nothing happens. KDE and Gnome moves on. The billion other distros still exist. Once you move out of this touchy-feely way of thinking about things the better off you'll be.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[Anonymous Coward]

Novell can't "screw Linux" anymore than your grandmother can screw Linux. It's just you and the idiot parent poster who get all touchy-feely-community thinking about this shit that is screwed in the head. Gnome, KDE, and Linux will continue to exist even if Novell decided to close down Ximian and Suse forever. Once you pull your head out of your ass the better off you'll be in life.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[confuse(issue)]

Anyone wanna bet we'll be seeing a Knome 4.0 release rather than a Gnome 4.0 and KDE 4.0?

I hope not. Putting Linux on the desktop should not be about diminishing choice, it is about having choices.

Re:Am I the only one who trusts Novell?

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously missed that since Qt went GPL there aren't any license issues anymore.

...linkified...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://zdnet.com.com/1200-1110-5083063.html

What they're gonna say ...

[didjit]

Perhaps we finally get to see what Novell is planning to do with Linux?

The largest ever set of SCO licenses purchased at one time.

Re:What they're gonna say ...

[confuse(issue)]

The largest ever set of SCO licenses purchased at one time.

Close. In a move to get more capital, they are going to sell SCO I giant stack of papers that is the 'source' to Linux. With that stack will be one that explains "This stack of papers belongs to you, you are free to modify it in any way or to sell it as you see fit". So they will get about 50 Million for the stack of papers. The sweet part is that when SCO sues everyone who is using Linux (because they now own it) It will take the judge about five minutes to explain to them that "NO, you own a stack of paper, which is inherently different than an operating system."

its win win win

[buddha42]

Novel really has so much potential here and so much to offer I really can't wait for them to get moving.

How about a cross platform groupwise based mail/groupware platform that can honestly compete with exchange?

Or a active directory competitor based on NDS.

Or a well respected certificate program.

Best of all, a genuine compeitor to redhat, forcing some price and service competition.

Between Novel, RedHat, and IBM the next few years are going to be amazing for linux. It would be nice if Sun would stop pussyfooting around, but they've got some issues to work out first.

Re:its win win win

[Anonymous Coward]

Groupwise does compete with Exchange (it's better in many people's opinion).

Active Directory competitor? It's called eDirectory, and is far and away superior to AD. AD is crap, by the way, just crap.

SuSE was already a genuine competitor. It's a much more globally used distro.

Re:its win win win

[Anonymous Coward]

SuSE was already a genuine competitor. It's a much more globally used distro Really? mind pointing me to that fact sheet? Or are you just going from what you heard on a slashdot post. Netcraft estimates Red Hat is %60 of the entire linux market who I might ad just won a contract in Germany to get the second largest EU service provider.
SuSe does not automatically mean the world likes it just cause its based in Germany, beleive it or not some companys out there still want open source software and Novell still has many un answered questions.

Re:its win win win

[Anonymous Coward]

eDirectory already runs on Linux and scales to Billions of Objects

The CrossPlatform Groupwise is in public beta now.

XD2 still Rocks and Red Carpet will assist in bringing the Linux Desktop to the Enterprise

Re:its win win win

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuse me, an Active Directory competitor based on NDS?

eDirectory scales to billions of objects, is built out of the experience Novell gained from NDS, and has more seats sold than Active Directory and Sun Directory Server combined. It runs on NetWare (obviously), Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows 2003, Linux, AIX, HP-UX, and Solaris-SPARC.

Having worked with Active Directory extensively (I was involved in planning a very large scale deployment of Active Directory - after 2.5 years, it's finally starting to roll out - that's a hell of a lot of planning), I can assure you that eDirectory very soundly kicks Active Directory's ass in the directory space.

That's why Microsoft only compares AD to NDS as it ran on NetWare 4.x. It's only as good as technology Novell developed 10 years ago.

Re:its win win win

[cpthowdy]

It's Novell, not Novel.

Re:Get discount tickets!

[Anonymous Coward]

well its got to be better than that sking weekend i got in colorado, even the police were in on it

Embracing Open Source

[Coryoth]

This will be interesting to hear indeed. ALl the other interviews I've seen (with Novell and Ximian staff for instance) have implied that this really is the new direction for Novell - that is, that from top to bottom Novell has grasped that open source is a powerful way forward and is busy trying to absorb open source culture into their ranks. They went as far as suggesting that one of te reasons for the purchase of Ximian was integrate the Ximian staff into the company and thereby imbue the different divisions with an open source mindset.

Of course all of that can quite easily be a lot of spin - some nice fluffy stories to keep the open source community on side. Then again, they prompty bought SuSE after that, so obviously they were still well interested in open source.

The real promise of this is the concept of a big company really getting open source and moving to it in a powerful way. The credibility alone would be fantastic. Yes, IBM backs Linux, but not in the same way Novell potentially promises to. Right now IBM has Linux as a nice side project, whereas Novell is talking about swallowing open source to it's core.

I look forward to seeing where Novell goes - it could be a very long way indeed.

Jedidiah

Re:Embracing Open Source

[cbreaker]

Well, let's just hope they ARE interested in Open Source, instead of trying to write all these non-gpl applications that only work right on their distribution.

Re:Embracing Open Source

[Coryoth]

Well, let's just hope they ARE interested in Open Source, instead of trying to write all these non-gpl applications that only work right on their distribution.

That's still to be seen isn't it. It's all very well to talk the talk (which they've been doing a good job of so far), the reall question will be how well they follow through with it.

My personal guess is that Novell will remain fairly proprietary - There's too much invested in ZenWorks and the like to just open source it all now (from a politcla, justify to your uneducated shareholders viewpoint) - But I do think they'll produce a fairly clean distribution, and at the least have fairly distribution agnostic proprietary parts.

Only time will tell though.

Re:Embracing Open Source

[k_head]

I don't see anything wrong with that. I figure they can drive the adoption of linux once they get all the kinks out of integrating edirectory and zenworks and linux.

Combine that with groupwise and you have a compelling enterprise story to tell. Basically you can do anything AD/sql server/windows/exchange/outlook can but cheaper and better.

IDONOTAGREEWITHTHISPOST

[cbreaker]

Show me the proof?

How come everytime a company that's not "on top" goes and tries to expand their market, you get fools like this that say ignorant things like "this is a last ditch effort?"

Bah. I consider Novell a good asset to have behind Linux, they still have a lot of capital and talent in the company. I hope they use it wisely.

Re:IDONOTAGREEWITHTHISPOST

[Pros_n_Cons]

Funny, I see the oppisite.
When a company is doing well we start a PR monster to kill them and prop up some #2 guy as the savior. Anyone who makes money == bad.

What about Brainshare in March?

[Admiral1973]

I think Chris Stone is more likely to reveal new strategies for Novell and Linux at the first keynote speech at Brainshare 2004. I'm sure he'll have similar things to say at the MySQL conference, but I hope that those of us who attend Brainshare get the scoop first. I'm looking forward to attending the conference again (I first went in 2002); Chris Stone was the featured speaker at the first keynote then, and he was entertaining and informative. Something about being a former drummer for Aerosmith seems to help him with crowds.

Re:IDONOTAGREEWITHTHISPOSTORITSPARENT

[Anonymous Coward]

show me the money?!

We are just being careful

[bogie]

" I don't know about you, but Novell is probably the only company I'd trust with this large a slice of the linux pie. "

Why on earth would you just trust Novell automatically? Novell's cash cow has always been its proprietary technology. They are a proprietary company that although by no mean about to die has already seen its heyday. The adoption of Linux by Novell was a long term strategic move based on the fact that Novell wasn't going anywhere with its traditional technologies, and needed to buy someone else's to compete in today's marketplace.

I see no reason to be anything but cautiously optimistic. Anything beyond that is just foolish. Its going to take years not months before Novell can be regarded as a true ally to Linux and Open Source. Just because they are continuing down the path that Ximian and Suse were already on doesn't prove anything.

If they really want to befriend the Open Source community they could start by opening up YAST and the Ximian connector. That would be a real token of faith. Again, acquiring an Open Source company or two and then just keeping the status quo doesn't mean much.

"Plus, they bought one of the best implementations of Gnome and a great KDE implementation. I can see Novell bringing the linux desktop together in many ways."

Perhaps. Or maybe they take Gnome and KDE and make the best proprietary Linux desktop ever made. Or maybe you'll see the semi-proprietary Suse with the even more proprietary NDS and Groupwise technologies get rolled into a really slick server? But how would that help Open Source?

Honestly I haven't read anything that makes alarms go off in my head thinking Novell is trying to screw over "Linux". I also haven't read anything mind blowing with regards to Novell opening up anything that wasn't open before.

If Novell just acts as a steward for Ximian and ensures it has funding so that they can continue to kick back to Gnome I'll be happy. If they make Suse even more proprietary its not the biggest loss. But really let's hope Novell opens some of its own code and sponsors some new OSS projects that will take Linux and OSS to the next level.

Re:We are just being careful

[Clover_Kicker]

>Why on earth would you just trust Novell automatically?

I've been using NetWare since 2.12. I trust Novell to make reliable software.

>If they really want to befriend the Open Source community they could
>start by opening up YAST and the Ximian connector. That would be a
>real token of faith. Again, acquiring an Open Source company or two
>and then just keeping the status quo doesn't mean much.

They don't pretend to be Free Software idealists. They're Open Source pragmatists, trying to make money.

>haven't read anything mind blowing with regards to Novell opening up
>anything that wasn't open before.

There's an announcement on the front page of forge.novell.com about the opening of Ximian "build buddy". The next page announces the opening of a C# LDAP library. There are more if you want to crawl thru the site.

Welcome to FOSS Novell!

[rjamestaylor]

But if Chris Stone says anything about "Monetizing Linux" or Open Source, please stand up and walk out. That's what should have happened to Darl Gates, er, McBride when he said he was going to turn Caldera/SCOGrope into "bottled water" sellers.

Novell is a Good Guy right now but Can'O'Pee and SCOGrope come from Novell...albeit an earlier incarnation with Noorda.

Companies, especially publicly traded ones, have loyalties to stockholders and are subject to spot-on 180's in pursuit of increasing stockholder value.

So, no offense, Novell and Chris, but I think you understand why we might be liking to keep things platonic right now.

Keep it up, Novell. You're winning many new friends.

Re:Welcome to FOSS Novell!

[swimmar132]

They're not exactly new to the OSS movement.

From Chris' bio:

"Chris has been working with and around Open Source and Linux technology since 1997. He initiated the Open Source Review Board in 1997 to help Novell migrate services to Linux."

NDS/eDirectory on Linux

[mrscott]

Novell doesn't need to create an open source directory since there are already plenty of directories that work well wtih Linux - including Novell's own eDirectory which is the successor to NDS. eDirectory is now OS-agnostic and doesn't even need NetWare to run. It's one of the reasons that GroupWise (also soon to be available natively under Linux) runs so well in Windows-only environments.

Now... if we're looking for a *free* directory from Novell under Linux, don't hold your breath. eDirectory is an excellent product (beats AD in almost all areas, in my opinion) for which Novell should be paid.

However, do take a look at Novell's site. At one point, they were offering something like 250,000 free eDirectory seats - the OS didn't matter.

Re:NDS/eDirectory on Linux

[hendersj]

Actually, with the eDirectory Redistribution Kit, you can get 250,000 user licenses for free for any of the supported platforms. (This is the offer you were referring to, and yes, the RDK is still available)

eDirectory is plumbing, and Novell understands that - the value of eDirectory comes by having:

1. Wide adoption of it as the core of identity management solutions, and

2. Services that effectively leverage eDirectory to provide the value.

Selling eDirectory doesn't make a lot of sense, but providing the services to help (a) implement it effectively, (b) support it effectively, and (c) understand how to implement services that utilize the identity store effectively is where revenue can be generated.

Past history

[t0ny]

Well, if what happened to Word Perfect is any indication of what Novell is planning, I would start being very worried.

Re:Past history

[cpthowdy]

Novell has different management this time around, and with people like you who can do nothing but point out their past failures, they know well enough not to let it happen again.

Re:Past history

[t0ny]

Novell has different management this time around, and with people like you who can do nothing but point out their past failures, they know well enough not to let it happen again.

You say that like its a bad thing.

Re:Past history

[cpthowdy]

It's pretty irrelevent when the majority of the bad-decision makers aren't even there now, so it isn't fair to lump current management in with those losers.

Re:Past history

[t0ny]

It's pretty irrelevent when the majority of the bad-decision makers aren't even there now, so it isn't fair to lump current management in with those losers.

Ya, the new losers deserve their chance to fuck things up.

Desparate Measures from a Dying Company

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else see this as essentially an admission of defeat? A panicked, last ditch attempt to find some avenue for revenue/sales growth given that Novell has basically no customers other than legacy customers, for whom the pain of migrating to a better enterprise networking architecture exceeds the pain of inertia? How exactly -Chris Stone's eloquent yet content-free market-speak aside- does Novell intend to create a business around this open source architecture? What VALUE is Novell adding? What's the Special Sauce?

My favorite quote from the interview: "We're not after Microsoft. We're after opportunity." As the CarTalk boys say, "Good Luck"...

Re:Desparate Measures from a Dying Company

[Anonymous Coward]

...customers, for whom the pain of migrating to a better enterprise networking architecture exceeds the pain of inertia?

There is no better enterprise networking architecture. eDirectory really is that good.

Revenue will be their biggest challenge

[Twid]

For Novell, I think the biggest challenge is to keep revenue stable while customers transition from NetWare to Linux, without losing too many customers to Windows in the process.

NetWare is still pretty expensive on the server. A 50-user copy is about $150 a seat on CDW retail ($7,500), about $50 a seat under a licensing agreement ($2,500).

SuSE is $999 per server with no client licenses fees.

Figuring NetWare to be about 50% of Novell's one billion in revenue, that means Novell would stand to lose more that 25% of their total revenue assuming everyone switched to SuSE. Novell might make this up with SuSE/Ximian desktop revenue, but I see large amounts of revenue from Linux on the desktop as being a long time in the making.

The estimates for SuSE revenue for 2003 were for about $40 million in revenue. As near as I can tell Ximan never really made any money to speak of.

So, if I haven't bored anyone to death yet, Novell NetWare is a $500 million revenue stream, SuSE is a $40 million revenue stream. Novell needs to very carefully transition from NetWare to SuSE if they want to keep revenue even. They can also grow by taking customers from Microsoft or Red Hat. But, it appears to me that Novell will have to shrink about 25% in size in order to remain profitable in the short term. Red Hat, with a more mature Linux strategy, only made $100 million in the last four quarters.

None of this is a bad thing, and I wish Novell the best of luck. I used to work there, and I still have friends there. Just doing the math though it seems like they will need to get smaller before they get bigger again.

Hardly....

[Anonymous Coward]

No, nobody else sees it this way.

Novell is doing what any company does in the marketplace - it evolves. Companies that don't adapt, die. Isn't that how the saying goes? Adapt or Die?

IBM open sourced AFS

[mdfst13]

IBM open sourced AFS, so there is some precedent. Of course, AFS's reliance on root servers (to integrate the different AFS cells; what allows cmu.edu to cd into mit.edu or pitt.edu) make it a stronger commercial open source candidate (i.e. potential revenue is more from leasing root server access than selling client or normal server licenses anyway). Still, anything that centralizes file serving can lead to support contracts, etc. that can justify open source development.

Open sourcing would also allow integration of open source tools like MySQL or ReiserFS.

Transition to Linux?

[CycoChuck]

I'm hoping that Novell will make transition tools so that you can easily move user data from NetWare over to Linux. Although I do like the NetWare servers at work (our 3.5 server has gone 3 years without reboot) the user and server licenses are too expensive.

SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[PB8]

It's a very wild guess, but think about it. Novell already has the Ximian desktop and now SuSE. Next, try to get a key piece of the LAMP server , and what's more central to most current web content packages than MySQL?

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as the install is much easier than Oracle for linux, this would be good.... The Oracle install for Linux sucks.

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some other database I hope. Compared to any of the competition, mysql really has nothing oging for it, other than slashbot drone mentality.

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[BiggerIsBetter]

Wouldn't SAP have something to say about that? I think they went into partnership with MySQL a while back.

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Using the word "partnership" gives a bit too much crdit to MySQL. SAP still develops the database, MySQL sells it, because they don't any read database product themselves.

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[BiggerIsBetter]

True. I guess they were looking for marketshare and name recognition. However I tend to see it as a loss of credibility for SAP-DB.

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. That and the change in licensing terms made us migrate off from SAP DB after MySQL started getting involved.

SAP DB is an excellent database. It can rival Oracle in many ways and the best part was that it was full GPL with LGPL'ed libraries and client drivers. Also, the JDBC driver is amazingly good.

Among people who know databases, MySQL is a bad word. I've already seen examples of SAP DB losing credibility after the MySQL deal way announced. What the slashdot crowd think they know about mysql and databases has little effect in the real world.

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't need to buy what they can license. Novell includes commercially-licensed MySQL with NetWare. Apache and PHP, too. Occasionally, Novell will talk about NAMP (AMP on NetWare).

Re:SWAG: Maybe Novell wants to buy MySQL?

[PB8]

SAP has partnership relations with Novell/SuSE as well. SAP is included in SuSE Professional. So business alliances are a common thread and appear to support the idea.

Keep in mind Oracle's push to buy PeopleSoft. Getting the vertical stack on business data services is a key strategic move. Recall Microsoft bought Great Plains while Oracle is working mightily to get PeopleSoft. Novell appears to be aligning resources vertically related to business data services as well. Imagine the advantage of a full vertical BDS stack based on SAP but minus the cost of Oracle or DB2 or SQL Server. MySQL's database relationship with SAP is interesting in terms of implications globally. SAP appears to be scaling to fit business and government of all sizes. Linux based deployment options (very small to very large) allow them to compete across the board. Novell surely would want a piece of this!

Hope Springs Eternal.

[k_head]

Hope springs eternal but I would not hold my breath.

Novell has always had fantastic products. Ask anybody who was/is a netware admin and I bet you can't get them to shut up about how great the products were. Same with zenworks or NSD/eDirectory.

The problem is that Novell does not know how to sell. They have no juice with the magazines, they have no PR power. They can't create buzz and excitement about their products.

Maybe things have changed over there, I certainly hope so, but I am not holding my breath.

Linux is "Simply Good Business" is Novell's Claim

[Anonymous Coward]

Stone's boss, Novell's Jack Messman said at LinuxWorld in January that "Novell is a billion-dollar company that's wagering its future on open source" and made a convincing case for there being no contradiction between supplying a free Linux distribution and supplying value-add services on Linux that Novell charges for. His final words were apparently: "Linux is simply good business."

Re:Linux is "Simply Good Business" is Novell's Cla

[jg21]

According to that same report (I just read it through) he also says: "How do you make money out of open source?"
Here was his answer: "It is a development model - but it is also becoming a business model. People will pay for the convenience of 'free' software. Companies like Novell have invested millions of dollars in proprietary code which it is now contributing to the community - such as its UDDI server."

Re:Linux is "Simply Good Business" is Novell's Cla

[Anonymous Coward]

Messman also makes the argument that CIOs find the idea that the community owns the code "pretty daunting", epecially as different pieces of the software stack are owned by different vendors.

Novell's USP appears to be to give CIOs "one throat to choke" - a phrase that's also been used in connection with the $10 million injection into JBoss by Matrix Partners. (Not so U after all, hehe!)

Linux is "Simply Good Business" is Novell's Claim

[jg21]

Novell also has Richard Seibt on board now, the former CEO of SuSE. He joined to continue managing SUSE LINUX as President, and said - according to LinuxWorld again: "2004 will be the year of Linux."

More information.

[perlplex]

If you're interested in the services Chris offers, visit his homepage: http://www.chrisstone.net/home.htm

Re:More information.

[eer]

Informative? Informative? Look, I know Chris Stone, I've worked with Chris Stone, and Chris Stone bares very little resemblance to that Chris Stone!

Re:More information.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know, I mean he was modded as informative and you've been modded as troll. Who am I supposed to believe here?

Sarcasm and a "NOT!", how 1980s

[Anonymous Coward]

[n/t]

reading comprehension

[Clover_Kicker]

Who's the idiot? They're talking about AD.

Re:Linux is "Simply Good Business" is Novell's Cla

[hufnmouth]

Linux is more than "Simply Good Business" it's thier key to winning (or playing in) the desktop market. Novell's Zenworks product uses Linux extensively which has trimmed several hours of my deployment time and has increased my ability to manage my hosts. I would look to Zenworks being the forefront Novell desktop product at the end of 2004.

One word for MySQL: Zenworks

[hufnmouth]

Replace Sybase: Use MySQL. Implement Ximian as a desktop replacement for Windows. Bring solid terminal services to Novell. That is all.

How is NDS linked on Linux? [GPLed Libraries?]

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

eDirectory is an excellent product (beats AD in almost all areas, in my opinion) for which Novell should be paid.

Longtime Novell CNI/CNE here, and, for the record, I don't want to even pretend to hide the fact that I'm deeply skeptical of Stallman and his agenda.

Something I've been wondering for the longest time: How does Novell compile & link NDS on Linux? For years, Novell was a Watcom C++ shop, but then Watcom assumed room temperature, and Novell seemed to be in bed with Metrowerks [at least that's what you got with a DeveloperNet subscription, so I always assumed that's what Novell was using in-house]. With all the turmoil over at Motorola [in re the sell-off of the chipset fabrication division], it's not at all clear what the future of Metrowerks will be. [For the record, I always thought that the biggest hole in Novell's product lineup was the absence of a native compiler - I think they're the only OS vendor in the industry that doesn't offer at least one home grown compiler for their operating system. Seems like with the break-up of Motorola, Metrowerks might be on the auction block, and they sure would fill a great big gaping hole in the Novell line...]

Anyway, it seems like there are three major options for people looking to develop on Linux: the GCC C++ compiler & linker, the Intel C++ compiler & linker, and the Metrowerks C++ compiler & linker. My question: How does a company like Novell link NDS and not have it contaminated by the GPL?

I suppose a Stallmanite would reply that NDS can be written in such a way that it only need touch the LGPL'ed libraries of the GCC compiler/linker, but I'd reply by saying

1) The GPL & LGPL are so poorly written that it's not at all clear what they actually say [although it's abundantly clear what Stallman would have liked them to have said], and

2) Is there any place you can go, or any oracle you can consult, to get a definitive statement as to just what it is that is GPL'ed and what it is that is LGPL'ed? If you call printf(), is it GPL'ed or LGPL'ed? If you call arctan(), is it GPL'ed or LGPL'ed? If you make a call to something really sophisticated, like the NTP [the Network Time Protocol, which is fundamental to the NDS infrastructure], is your call GPL'ed or LGPL'ed? And how do these answers vary with respect to the different compiler/linker packages?

Is it possible to write something as all-encompassing as NDS and have it remain un-contaminated by the GPL? Or does Novell intend to abandon the property-rights model, open-source NDS, and move to the service contract model?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Re:How is NDS linked on Linux? [GPLed Libraries?]

[T-Ranger]

Starting off, the GPL (and LGPL) specificly allows for non-GPLd software to link against GPL stuff and not be contaiminated. The GPL specificly excluded the product of things like compilers (or text editor's, I suppose) from being contaiminated. Calls to functions provided by a GPLd package are ok. Calls accross the network to a GPLd server (like NTP) are even more ok. Think about IE connecting to an apache server (well, not apache - it doesnt have a viril license, but YKWIM).

But you know that... The question is about ambiguities of the (l)GPL. Interesting question. Novell is entering into this "free software" stuff in good faith. That said, it is almost a given that for systems as numerous and complex as Novell has, and will be porting to Linux, that when done, some lawyer will find a problem somewhere. Will the GNU sue NOVL without sending a heads up message: "we think X is non-compliant"? No, of course not. The will be given the opportunity to fix the problem, and they will. Slashdot has reported on a handfull of cases where GNU has sent out simmilar messages, most of which were addresses satisfactiorly.

The point of most licenses is to ensure that someone gets paid. If a violator is found some companies will be almost happy for the chance to sue someone and get paid fines and damages. Pay up front, or pay after litigation, the company wins either way. GNU, OTOH, has licenses for very different reasons. They dont want damages awarded to them. They want you to comply with the license. If threats bring a violator into compliance, then the GNUs interest has been served.

Secondly, your asking questions of what Novell will do in the future. They have already ported NDS to Linux - I had it running on a test server in 2000.

Very few OS companies produce compilers. Actually, only one OS company produces a compiler, Microsoft. All the other compilers that come with OSs come from hardware vendors. Sun doesnt ship Forte because it works well with Solaris, they ship it because it works well with Sparcs. The ship both Forte and Solaris so their hardware is usefull.

As for your second to last question, it answeres itself. Novell has the full source to NDS, and its 'native' platform, Netware. If there was a risk from GPL contamination (which there isn't) then they could just port over all those bits from Netware too.

It is unlikely that Novell will OSS Netware. It is likely so ridden with cross licensed technology that it would be all but impossible to do so. At the same time, if Netware has some nifty feature usefull to programers (us CN?s are fully aware of its nifty features for admins) Im sure there will be patches submitted to the approiate project - the kernel, glibc, gcc, or any one of dozens of others. Oracle, for example, submits lots of patches to lots of projects.

Re:How is NDS linked on Linux? [GPLed Libraries?]

[curious.corn]

Troll... not even a good one.

gcc (GCC) 3.3 20030304 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 1495)
Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO
warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

What would be interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is if Novell could bring in some of the guys from Boston(Ximian) and Germany(Suse) for say a weeklong brainstorming session in Utah. Now, I don't know if Novell even really has a desktop strategy and they might be happy doing some directory services stuff on Linux as well as other server stuff, but it wouldn't hurt.

There's not going to be some Knome like someone else hypothesized about, but what we could see are some ideas about how Gnome and KDE can play nicely together. To me, KDE has always been about the technology and a integrated desktop, and Gnome has been about the killer apps and a slim UI.

If it's possible I would like to see some Gnome apps start using some KDE technology like maybe KParts, DCOP, whatever. I don't know if that's even possible. I mean, what's up with Bonobo? Is anybody using it anymore. It wouldn't be bad to maybe get some QT/KDE bindings for Mono. But I don't know if Novell wants to tread into those waters with the licensing issues surrounding QT. At the very least, Novell could help out with freedesktop.org to get some standardization going on.

Personally, I don't see Linux on the desktop ever getting mainstream until there is more cooperation between the two DEs. I'm not even talking about some kind of integration of the two, but at least some basic component-level communications. Is it completely unfeasible for some Bonobo component to act as a Kpart and maybe vice-versa. There needs to be a standard for bookmarks and such.

Re:What would be interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

..is if Novell could bring in some of the guys from Boston(Ximian) and Germany(Suse) for say a weeklong brainstorming session in Utah and call it BrainShare.

Novell & MySQL at UKUUG winter conference

[James Youngman]

Matt Asay, Director of Novell's Linux Business Office, spoke at the recent UK Unix Users' Group Winter conference, as did David Axmark, one of the founders of MySQL AB.