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Seattle Times Reviews Desktop Linux Distros

Posted by timothy on from the are-we-there-yet dept.

prostoalex writes "Seattle Times section on Personal Technology compares Xandros and Lindows as two alternatives to Windows for desktop computing. Their verdict: installation - excellent; OpenOffice - good enough; digital cameras, printers and other peripherals - excellent; CD burning - no problems; video playback - could be better (with more progress bars and support for Apple's formats); digital camcorders - poor; burning audio CDs - poor; Net access and Web browsing - no problems."

48 of 463 comments (clear)

  1. Interesting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    ... but could have done with a link to last year's review. It would have been good to see in detail how far we've come.

    I think saying 'burning audio CDs - poor' misstates the verdict in the article, by the way. He had trouble finding how to copy .cda files directly, though burning from mp3s was fine. Odd, since you can just grab them right out of Konqueror IIRC, but still a long way from 'poor'.

  2. Games? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, great, I really care about digital camera support. How compatible is it with games?

    1. Re:Games? by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Fortunately", the mis-conception of games being something only for kids is just that: a mis-conception. On the bright side, it helps keep politicians in the business of screaming about how _M_ rated games are some conspiracy to turn 12 year olds into serial killers, because surely noone in the _M_ age bracket would buy a game. But that's the only "bright" side there is to that mis-conception. Actual studies show that the average age for gamers is more like in the mid-to-late twenties nowadays. Like any bell curve, that extends both ways a lot. There are 50+ years old people in there too. (E.g., my father plays Counter Strike.) And that's not even taking into account the millions who play Solitaire or Minesweeper some online web-based Backgammon game or such. Those usually won't say they're hardcore gamers, but guess what? They're still playing a game.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    2. Re:Games? by thenextpresident · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You know, this is a common argument. However, one from someone who obviously doesn't have the facts straight.

      1. How compatible is it with games? Many games are made for WindowsXP. You expect OS developers to make them compatible? Why not ask the companies that make these games why they don't make a Linux version. Many companies do make Linux versions of games without a problem. It shouldn't be our job to make software built for one OS for another OS.

      2. When will Microsoft make Ximian Evolution compatible with Windows? Oh, they won't? And why not? Because Evolution is not developed by them, and they don't care to port it.

      3. Running Linux doesn't mean you stop playing games. I play lots of games: Unreal Tournament, Neverwinter Nights, Enemy Territory. But I prefer playing games on my PS2, as I have a bigger monitor, and a couch to sit on.

      So continue using Windows, and continue making excuses why you don't want to switch. If you don't want to switch, by all means, don't. But don't pretend that it has something to do with your "games" that you must have, and place blame on those that shouldn't be responsible. Rather than demanding game companies be compatible with Linux, continue to support the lack of choices.

      AC Morons...piss me off.

      --
      Jason Lotito
    3. Re:Games? by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lemme quote the original statement I was answering to: "Fortunately, for the vast majority of grown ups, our priorities are the other way round." Which is just false. Given a choice between:

      1. an OS which can play games, and

      2. an OS which mostly can't

      the vast majority of adults will choose the second. That's what I'm saying.

      And let me give you another reason for it: the majority of adults aren't high paid IT consultants. They might have a computer for the whole family. Not a whole farm of computers, which can be neatly split into dedicated routers, dedicated mail servers, linux desktops and gaming machines.

      So even if you actually think that everyone playing a 3D game is not an adult game yet, guess what? They might have to share that machine with their 40+ year old mom and dad. Hence that machine just got "must run games" as an extra requirement.

      And before you cite that "women over 40 play most games" survey, they're playing word games and puzzle games, not GTA3, which is pretty evidently *not* what the original poster means.

      The gaming world isn't divided that sharply into (A) GTA or Quake 3 clones, and (B) 2d puzzles.

      There are a ton of games, like "The Sims" or "Europa 1400 -- The Guild" that are very graphically intensive, sold very well, have a ton of adult players, and don't have a Linux port. And they're not GTA, they're puzzle games, business sims, or other such.

      And even among puzzle games players, I don't think things are that interchangeable. "Ludicriously well cattered for" would be being able to run his/her favourite games from that genre, not basically "umm, you can play Pingus instead of The Sims." :)

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  3. little respect by shird · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the first paragraph he suggests that worms, viruses and popups are somehow the fault of and only restricted to Windows, and using Linux will solve all those problems.

    This is not the reason to switch operating systems, it is a reason to use better software, patch your system, have better security practices etc. Articles that start with this proclamation don't warrant reading any further.

    --
    I.O.U One Sig.
    1. Re:little respect by Space+Coyote · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The whole point of this article is to show that these linux distributions are fully capable of carrying out every day end-user tasks, and that there currently isn't a problem with worms, viruses, or spyware on Linux. So it most definitely is a compelling reason to give Linux a try, your embracing of a hellish computer experience of patching and babying your computer as opposed to doing real work notwithstanding.

      --
      ___
      Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.
    2. Re:little respect by andih8u · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good thing you never have to patch linux to keep it secure and up to date, right? I don't get why all the linux people are always acting like you just install it and its set for the rest of its lifecycle. While it may be inherantly more secure, and un-patched box is still an un-patched box; linux's saving grace is that its average user is typically more savvy than your average windows user is.

      --


      slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
    3. Re:little respect by kzadot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Worms and viruses and popups etc are THE main ways that windows manages to eat away at productivity.

      The authors suggestion that worms, viruses and popups are totally a windows thing, and that they can very effectively be remedied by upgrading to a more thoughtfully designed OS such as linux is in no way false, and definatly suggest that a well written article follows.

      Being able to avoid these annoyances is definatly a MAJOR reason, (but not the only reason) to abandon windows and switch to a more serious, productive work environment such as linux.

      Remaining with windows, and "using better software", "patching your system" and having "better security practices" does make partial sense to me, but if you can recognize some benefit in abandoning IE and Outlook in favor of Mozilla or something (i.e. getting it half right), then whats preventing you from recognizing that this is the same idea behind abandoning windows in favor of linux?

      Apart from you being a windows fanboy that is.

      Do you realize that its the open source development model behind free software such as Mozilla, that makes it so solid and reliable dont you? You do realise that its the peer review process thats lacking in Outlook, IE, and windows itself thats to blame for the shoddy design and poor security of these programs?

      Save yourself hassles now, ditch windows, it really is a crap OS.

    4. Re:little respect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Do you realize that its the open source development model behind free software such as Mozilla, that makes it so solid and reliable dont you? You do realise that its the peer review process thats lacking in Outlook, IE, and windows itself thats to blame for the shoddy design and poor security of these programs?

      Err.. don't make me laugh... let me reject what you just said.

      IE has IME been the most stable and fastest browser for quite a few years now, only to be rivalled by firefox(however not in usability). Even on Solaris it outperforms Netscape 4.8. From your post I deduce that you haven't really looked at IE's design, but let me assure you that it's absolutely great.

      Outlook is also IME the best, absolute best PIM application available. Even cloning it (evolution) doesn't work as well and will always be one step behind the real thing.

      Peer review.. thats why we still don't have a decent Mozilla build after many years. And the list goes on and on.

      And if we finally have a great free desktop environment, all of us will be shit outta work. Thank you very much, mr Stalinman!

  4. These are nice, but... by Amiga+Lover · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I had the chance to play with a Lindows machine in the last month, and it left me impressed with the simplicity, but concerned about the mentality it's going to help keep breeding.

    While not all windows users are the "luser" type, there's a massive amount of Joe Average users who can't troubleshoot their way out of a paper bag. Linux has continued to grow for more than a decade now, and has been doing well without these windows style distributions, and leaving behind a group of users with a wealth of knowledge that leaves any Joe Average in the dust.

    What I'm concerned about is... with an OS like Windows, why would anyone need to learn to troubleshoot? They can jump from one candy handholding OS to another without going through any kind of knowledge gathering to do so. It's keeping up a culture of ignorance among computer users. That's a legacy I think will come back and bite us on the butt.

    1. Re:These are nice, but... by slash-tard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not everyone needs to know how to troubleshoot a computer. Do you know how to do your taxes if you have capital gains and real estate tax write offs,fix your own plumbing? Do you know how to fix your new car, how about read over that lease to make sure your not getting screwed.

      Joe Average is never going to become a computer expert, just listen to how many times they refer to hard drive space as RAM. The best thing any OS can do is minimize problems and make things easy for simple users.

    2. Re:These are nice, but... by darnok · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > They can jump from one candy handholding OS to
      > another without going through any kind of
      > knowledge gathering to do so.

      My experience with this type of user (and there's lots of them) is that their Windows boxes generally "clog up with junk" running slower and slower and less and less reliably over time. Depending on the user, in my experience it can be anywhere from 6-12 months before the PC pretty much needs Windows to be reinstalled.

      How many users can actually reinstall a Windows machine, plus all their apps, plus recover their data from backups ("what are they?") when that time comes? Judging from the Q&A sections in PC magazines, a lot of people can't manage this.

      I think it's actually easier now to reinstall Linux than to reinstall Windows. Consider distros such as Mepis, Knoppix, Morphix - they've got all that most home users will ever need on 1 CD, and the install consists of booting off that CD and either typing one or two commands or clicking an "Install to hard disk" option and clicking "Next" a few times. It's a lot easier to do this than to install a typical Windows box with apps on multiple different CDs and tracking down serial numbers.

      Now, if only these users (and here I'm talking about *you*, Mum, Dad and sis!) would remember to take backups from time to time...

    3. Re:These are nice, but... by aliens · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's keeping up a culture of ignorance among computer users.

      It's really called, not everyone has the time/desire to learn how to troubleshoot.

      Can every car driver troubleshoot a problem with their car? Not even close. A small percentage will know what the problem is and fix it, another small percentage will have an idea of what the problem is and tell the mechanic, and the rest drop it off and say 'It's broken, please fix'

      That's how it is with computers. I'm sure any mechanic who loves cars would wish people learned more and took better care of their cars. That's how I see a lot of linux people act.

      But the fact is most people aren't going to even consider learning more. That's the beauty of linux. If they at first get Lindows, anyone who is part of the, group of users with a wealth of knowledge that leaves any Joe Average in the dust. will eventually seek out Gentoo, Slack, etc and learn more.

      Anyway my point is don't worry about it. There are a lot better reasons for the masses to run linux over Windows other than it being technically better. Something they probably will never really know anyway.

      --
      -- taking over the world, we are.
    4. Re:These are nice, but... by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The conception that the computer is something that only High Priests of the Sun (or IBM) should have access to, is so 60's that it isn't even funny.

      Do you need to be an electronics expert to use your TV? Do you even need to understand microwave physics to use your microwave oven? Do you even have any knowledge at all of the chemistry and physics involved in using that detergent in your washing machine? Do you need to be an expert in lasers to operate your DVD player?

      Well, then why the heck would an end user need to be a computer expert to use a computer?

      And let's talk about the vendor-consumer relationship. If you're a programmer, your job is to deliver what the users want, _not_ to make them have to take a 5 year course in CS to be able to use your stuff. It's your job to deliver value to the customers, _not_ the other way around. Because it's those pesky users that pay for your salary.

      And what the users _want_ is an appliance that's as easy and safe to use as their TV or microwave oven. That's it.

      The current screw-up where computers are a fragile unstable contraption, and needs arcane rituals to keep it working, is _not_ what the users want.

      And the current practice of blaming the users for your program's shortcomings, and calling them names like "lusers" or even "idiots", is a sad mockery of what the vendor-customer relationship was supposed to mean.

      If that "clueless luser" had to call tech support to get your program to work, it's _your_ failure. It's that simple.

      Just some food for thought.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    5. Re:These are nice, but... by SoTuA · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That's how it is with computers. I'm sure any mechanic who loves cars would wish people learned more and took better care of their cars. That's how I see a lot of linux people act.

      No, because of a lot of factors:

      People who don't take good care of their cars don't boggle down the internet or send me spam.

      People don't expect mechanics to work for free, or assume their car malfunctions because it's a car.

    6. Re:These are nice, but... by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      how about the simple fact that if I backup my /home/user directory I can drop it back in a fresh linux install and not lose a damned thing... this is 100% impossible under windows. I have to export the user profile and the hope that I can import the damned thing... most of the time it fails, and it never saves everything the users wanted.. linux forces the user by DEFAULT that everything must be saved in their user directory. windows let's you plop them anywhere... espically in the typical corperate domain setup where most everyone runs as administrator or power user because the IT department doesnt want to piss off the Executive staff or are stuck with horribly written vertical apps that haven't been re-written cince windows 98.

      Linux as the desktop in corperate is an absolute dream for the IT department and the users.

      management and care of a linux desktop machine is at least an order of magnitude easier than a windows machine... and it get's even easier if you run everything terminal server style with diskless workstations.... something that is near impossible with windows without spending 30 times the cash on licensing and specalized software and hardware.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:These are nice, but... by beforewisdom · · Score: 3, Insightful
      What I'm concerned about is... with an OS like Windows, why would anyone need to learn to troubleshoot? They can jump from one candy handholding OS to another without going through any kind of knowledge gathering to do so. It's keeping up a culture of ignorance among computer users. That's a legacy I think will come back and bite us on the butt.
      If you substituted "car" for "OS" in your paragraph above you would say that is how it should be.

      My point will be the same idea.

      Most people only want to use computers, not become computer enthusiasts or computer hobbyists.

      1985 is calling, they want their attitude back :)

      Steve

  5. Still... stuff works in windows by thegraham · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It can't really be argued that most of the gadgets such as palm's, digital cameras, iPods etc. work easily with linux. Most of them can be made to work with fiddling and some software that someone has hacked together, but at the end of the day the hardware vendors have more resources to throw at the software, and inevitably produce better software that works well with their product. Until they start producing software for linux, its simply too difficult for the average computer user to get things working on a linux desktop. Take my iPod for instance, with windows I just put the CD in, click install and its done - with a GUI that is _far_ better than gtkpod's (although gtkpod is great), whereas with linux you have to install different things, compile them in some cases, and its just much harder work.

    THomas

    1. Re:Still... stuff works in windows by JollyFinn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People may learn apt-get install to get applications but there is ONE BIG CATCH! They need to know that gtkpod is the application for that purpose. I have used linux from y2k and thats news to me. I could google and find out if I needed. But will average joe do it? NO. Heck there is probably some really good applications on tasks I wan't to do. But there is 10 crappy choises from which to choose. And I only wan't one that works. And know the name. Unless you get something along the way. ap-get install "connecting mobilephone to PC" And that "" could be parsed as any task user wan'ts or something to identify anything, apt-get is not for average Joe. How to make it a lot easier task. First put a list of commonly used apps for different task in a GUI installer with detailed descriptions what the applications is all about and top choises for different tasks. Now people could actually select what they need, and easy gui interface. Not needing guessing what application works for what. Now besidest that there should be something for "Windows power user" friendly thing like ability to search descriptions for key words. Like handset, or something. And common assumption for many tasks is that "if I cannot do it in gui its hard and there for impossible for me to do.".

      --
      Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
  6. Re:mplayer and xine by mrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I guess due to licencing/patent issues that these are not installed by default in the distros? Average user probably does not ./configure && make && make install

  7. One important thing by omar.sahal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In using linux I've noticed that we have real problems with installing and uninstalling software (just image uninstalling mozilla on many platforms). This would have to be sorted before Linux could be used by the general public.
    I hostly feel how ever that once this and other areas such as connecting devices have been delt with Microsoft have a big problem on there hands. Some projects that could sort the
    installation/uninstalltion problem include autopackage zero-install and A-A-P

    1. Re:One important thing by Imperator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's completely distro-dependent. A good package manager makes installing and uninstalling software easy. Whenever I hear someone complain about packaging on Linux, I ask them what distro they're using, and if they've considered trying alternatives...

      --

      Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
  8. Re:K3B by m00nun1t · · Score: 5, Insightful

    An "average joe" (or a reporter masquerading as one) had a problem. Therefore it's a problem.

    --
    Read reviews of shopping cart software
  9. Why those distros? by Hiigara · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why were only Xandros and Lindows reviewed? While I don't have a problem with Lindows, unlike most linux users. I think open source linux has better distros available then those two.

    My problem with the article is the possibility that a linux newbie might buy Lindows without trying Fedora, SuSE or SlackWare. What's the point of buying a Windows clone just so you can say you switched to Linux?

    Although if Lindows were to change its name to something more respectable I might consider trying it out. ;)

    1. Re:Why those distros? by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's the point of buying a Windows clone just so you can say you switched to Linux?
      to not get hit by the next windows worm

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  10. Why not Mandrake ? by phoxix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not too sure why they selected Xandros or Lindows over Mandrake for such a review.

    Unlike either of the two, Mandrake is composed of 100% FLOSS, is freely available, and it simply "kicks ass".

    In fact, I'm some what insulted they chose lindows at all. Lindows is a rather craptacular distro, with super annoying marketing practises, and a high yearly fee for people to get additional software.

    Sunny Dubey

  11. No free version? by Underholdning · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What I'd really like to see was a free linux distro among the tested versions. I have no beef with commercial linux distributions, but I'll never use one myself. It would be much easier for me to spread the word of the wonders of linux, if there was a free linux that would score as high as these two apparently does.
    What I see here is two windows clones based on linux. If linux is so much better than windows, why try so hard to behave like windows?
    So, what I'd really like to see is a Linux version that's easy to install, works out of the box, and stands on its own two legs. To the best of my knowledge, there's no such distro yet. Or what? I'd love it for someone to tell me that I'm wrong and point me in the right direction

    --
    Underholdning.info
  12. Can't we focus on something else now? by suso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think that the time for linking to every article that talks about Linux or compares it with Windows has passed. Linux is becoming mainstream. The time has come to focus about other aspects of it on slashdot.

  13. Re:Audio CD's by richie2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Finding a white box with no Windows shouldn't be a problem. If you're buying Dell or Gateway it's another story.

    --
    Money for nothing, pix for free
  14. Re:mplayer and xine by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Shhh. Let's not point that out already. Windows is the 1.0 normalizer. Linux is like 0.1 in the authors mind I guess...

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  15. Linux ok for Linux Penguins by gelfling · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Isn't all this pulse checking getting boring already?

    Hi we're a bunch of nerdy Linux geeks and Linux is rilly rilly kewl and 1337 to install (which I guess as an end consumer you're going to do a LOT of as a matter of course in your normal purchase cycle?)

    So trust us, here's a bunch of distros that are all only about 40% harder to install and run than Windows and when you're done they will run more or less 80% of what you originally intended Windows to run more or less 90% as well.

  16. Re:What about Gaming? by gowen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Gamer vastly over estimates importance of gaming in home / office desktop PC market. Film at 11.

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  17. Re:mplayer and xine by lintux · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't know, the only thing I know about Windows Media Player is that it usually attempts to download the necessary codec, and sometimes it even succeeds and gets the file playing.

    But for QuickTime on Windows, AFAIK the Apple software is really needed, yes. So actually this is not just a Linux problem. The only problem is that you can download Windows QuickTime straight from the Apple website, while they still probably don't distribute Linux MPlayer modules on their site.

    It would be nice to put a little downloader-and-installer for these modules in the fool-proof distributions though.

  18. Re:K3B by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    LOL, you're telling some newbie "average joe" to open up and command prompt and start typing in all this gobbley-stuff???

    user@linows:~$ mp3burn -o 'dev=x,x,x speed=XX' *mp3
    bash: mp3burn: command not found

    "Hmmmm..." User somehow manages to find and install this app.

    user@linows:~$ mp3burn -o 'dev=x,x,x speed=XX' *mp3
    *mp3 does not exist or invalid audio file at /usr/bin/mp3burn line 414.

    "Hmmmm..." User is sorta smart so they figure out they need to be in their mp3 directory. "How do I change directories???" Lets say they figure it out.

    user@linows:~$ mp3burn -o 'dev=x,x,x speed=XX' *mp3
    cdrecord: Bad Option: speed=XX.

    "Uh?? WTF???"

    Then they'll get to the dev=x,x,x crap. Hell, I know what I'm doing and I rarely remember the fricking raw scsi device number. Screw that...

    Shame...

  19. Re:K3B by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ya see, this is the problem. No "normal" user is going to want to use command-line tools like this to burn CDs.

    They want to pick tracks from a graphical file manager, hit "burn", and have a fnished CD 10 minutes later.

    And why shouldn't they? Though i'm sure someone will try to prove me wrong within minutes of posting this, there's really no reason to have a friendlier interface than the command line for things like this, assuming it's done fairly cleanly. Eschewing graphics in lieu of (percieved) performance increases is all well and good, but not if it locks out potential users.

  20. Let's not start saying the same things again. by caluml · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Before we jump on the bandwagon and start shouting "But I can burn audio CDs really easily" - we should remember that the people reviewing this are our target audience. Sure, **we** can do it, but they had problems with it, and hence it's these problems that we should be addressing.

    --
    Get your own free personal location tracker
  21. Uhh just a minute by Epistax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How well did they rate "Using non-standard hardware." Including printers, laptops, and virtually unknown brands of cdroms, ethernet devices, win modems (Ok maybe this one doesn't matter much anymore), windows keyboards (how much function can you get out of those functions), etc.

    I'd like to know how well speed step performs in linux. Can a laptop hibernate if it needs to? On my i8k in Mandrake it allows either battery or external power. If I plug in / detach the cord, the computer freezes (although the battery does kick in because whatever was on screen stays on screen). I can only assume everything worked by the high ratings given. Also I can assume from the ratings that the system instantly recognizes when any new USB/Firewire/PCMCIA device is hotswapped, and in most cases can identify it. Right? I mean, I did see the word "excellent" so I think it should at least be equal with Windows.

  22. Long term reviews by 4lex · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why are there always "installation and first steps" reviews? Sure, you have to install the systems, and sure, you have to burn CDs or write letters... but I would like some mid-to-long term review, including differences with Windows or Mac OS X regarding security problems, upgrades (two fields where linux should win hands down), integration of new hardware (which I suppose could be way more problematic), installation of new programs (which could be either way)...

    I think long-term reviews would be far more interesting to convince people of the possiblities of the system in the long term, as a stable working environment, not just as a weekend-hobby.

    --
    My journal. Mainly about freedom.
  23. Re:K3B by Hadean · · Score: 4, Insightful


    So what are any of the "average users" who use the same version of K3B supposed to do? Be told they can't burn MP3s? That's completely ridiculous! I'm not an "average computer user" in the least, but why the hell should I be forced to figure out new commands and their options everytime I want to do something? Shouldn't an audio CD burning program, you know, just work? I have more important things to do in my life then read MAN pages or online documentation - I want it to burn the bloody CD so I can get on with whatever I'd prefer to be doing.

    Sorry for the rant, but sometimes I can't stand the arrogance. Of course, now someone is probably thinking to themselves, "Why don't you program something?" or "Why don't you work or so-and-so open source project?" Which is, again, a major problem with the Linux community (at least, some people within it). I don't, because that's not what I'd like to be doing for hours and hours on end?

  24. Do I betray thee, Tux? by katsushiro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Linux is good. It's better, faster, and more stable than it's been in years. The level of quality on existing applications has gone up considerably, and new applications are being worked on everyday. You can use it as an everyday desktop as easily as you can use it for web/file/print serving. Systems such as Debian, Gentoo, and, yes, even Red Hat, make installing applications and keeping them updated a breeze. You don't have to worry about viruses, and spam and pop up fighting is integrated into most available web browsers and mail clients. However: it's not perfect. And it still caters to a different type of person than what Windows usually caters to.

    Here's the deal: a lot of things in Linux still require you to know about your computer, and the things that go in it. They require you to at least understand a lot about the inner workings of your machine and the software on it. This, however, means that your average Linux user must spend some time and effort learning these things and fiddling about with them, dropping into the command line, etc. etc. This is fine and good if you, like me, enjoy messing about with the guts of your OS. But most people, frankly, don't want to learn about their computers. They don't want to have to know anything about their system, its commands and file structures and methods and formats. They just want things to work, simply and with as little hassle as possible. And, for the most part, Windows provides that hassle-free day to day experience much better than Linux does.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I don't mean it as an attack, or in a condescending way, when I say most people can't be bothered to learn more about their computers and spend time learning the format of some arcane commands. It may seem strange to geeks like me, but most people do have better things to do. If you're, say, a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant or, hell, even a housewife, there's a thousand things in your day and in your life that are more important than trying to figure out just what command paramater will enable you to finally view that picture of your grandkids that your daughter in law emailed you. These people, most people, in fact, want convenience. They want to sit down and have their machine work hassle free, and they dont' want ten billion options and configuration parameters, they just want a button they can click that will do what they want, or close enough to it that it doesn't matter. And I can't say I blame them.

    Sure, Linux is free, both cost wise and speech wise. And that's a big draw for a lot of us. But it's still not as easy to use as your average Joe and Jane want it to be, and it won't be for a short while longer, at least. Because of thise, while you might not spend money on it, you'll certainly have to spend more time with it, both in education and work to get it to do the things you want to do. Linux can do anything Windows can, and then some... it's just that it's not always as easy as it is over in Windows land. Most people simply don't have the time or patience to deal with that, and they're willing to pay to have things just work, rather than use free apps that require you to spend a week learning them. Why spend hours trying to figure out how transcode, vcdimager, and k3b work and getting around each app's quirks just to put an AVI movie on a VCD, when on Windows, Nero Burning Rom can grab an AVI and slap it on a VCD in three clicks. Sure, Nero costs money, whereas transcode and its ilk are free, but with Nero you click three times and you're done, while even a computer geek like me has to spend a whole morning trying to figure out the command line formats of each command before I can even begin, and then spend time experimenting with it until I get it right. Most people would rather pay for convenience than have to suffer for a free program.

    So here's the deal: I'm no longer going to hold Windows against Windows users. If you know about Linux but still want to use Windows, it's your choice. There are risks and costs in that, of course, such as exposure to

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    "Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one." - Albert Einstein
  25. Users should be expected to be proficient by FreeUser · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And the current practice of blaming the users for your program's shortcomings, and calling them names like "lusers" or even "idiots", is a sad mockery of what the vendor-customer relationship was supposed to mean.

    If that "clueless luser" had to call tech support to get your program to work, it's _your_ failure. It's that simple.

    That is vastly simplified and in many cases flat out wrong. Yes, there is poorly written software that leaves users vulnerable, and requires users to know things they can't reasonably be expected to know. Microsoft is exceptionally guilty in this respect, as the plethora of viruses, worms, and trojans on that platform, and the tremendous damange they cause, attest to.

    But users need to be competent to use a computer, and Microsoft engages in a rhetoric that actively discourages competence, replacing education with soothsaying and empty promises of future security and performance.

    A more constructive approach would be for people to recognize that computers are like cars in some important respects with respect to what is required for a person to be capable of using them effectively and safely.

    In order to drive a car you have to get several weeks of training, pass written and operational exams, and be licensed.

    You have to not only learn the mechanics of operating a motor vehicle (how to turn the engine on, in both warm and cold weather, how to operate the transmission, windshield wipers, headlights, turn signals, how to parallel park, etc.) but also the rules of the road (when to use the turn signals, how to read the signage, the unposted rules of the road such as default speed limits in residential vs. rural areas, etc.).

    Even in the more permissive countries with respect to driving (such as the USA) you have to take a semester long class in how to drive before you are remotely considered competent enough to take the state exam, and in Europe the training is even more rigorous (and expensive) than that.

    Computers are machines at least as complex as cars, capable of doing far more diverse tasks than a car. It is the responsibility of the computer user to gain some degree of competence, and while not every car driver is a mechanic (nor every computer user willing to take the cover off of their machine), every driver does know the basic rules of the road and how to operate the vehicle. The same should be expected of computer users: they don't need to necessarilly know how to install a device driver, but they should be required and expected to know what a filesystem is, what a file vs. directory is, that different programs store information in different formats (mp3, avi, etc.), and the difference between persistent storage and RAM, as well as the difference between what is stored on their local drive and what is on the internet.

    Microsoft has persued a philosophy of keeping the users as stupid and uninformed as possible, to their own detriment. The fact that this laziness is embraced by their users (and is no small factor in the spread of worms and trojans among these people) is no excuse ... most of us wouldn't bother to take driver's ed either if we could just get the keys to the car and start learning on our own (making the roads as unsafe as the Internet has become).

    People need to be literate to read and write, and educated to operate a motor vehicle, and none of us expects to be able to do these tasks without being educated in the basic skills required to do so. It is absurd that we expect to be able to operate something vastly more complex and flexible ... computers ... and demand the ability to do so with little or no education or competence.

    Today's windows user is like the illiterate peasant of the 19th century, going to the local scribe to write or read a letter because they can't. The difference is that, at least in Europe and the US, efforts were being made to teach the peasant to read and write. Today the opposite is true

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    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  26. Re:K3B by the_mad_poster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Which is, again, a major problem with the Linux community (at least, some people within it). I don't, because that's not what I'd like to be doing for hours and hours on end?

    Soooo... let me get this straight. YOU think it's a problem because OTHER PEOPLE don't want to do the job YOU just said YOU don't want to do but YOU'RE currently griping about?

    Quit your bitching. If you actually thought it was a big enough problem to care about, you WOULD go program something. Shit. You could even *gasp* SELL IT AND MAKE SOME MONEY.

    If you don't want to participate in OSS short of using other people's hard work for free, fine. Stop whining about the shortcomings unless you plan on contributing something though. It would be one thing if you were asking someone nicely to do it, but you're not. You're being a whiny bitch and complaining because nobody ELSE programmed something YOU think would be nice to have.

    Boo hoo. Cry me a river there big fella. I'm really gonna concern myself because you're complaining that nobody else spent their free time making something for free that other people might think would be "nice" to have.

    And before you give me shit about "pushing it to the masses": FOSS is not a commercial venture. The point is to make a useful, open system, not please ever computer-illiterate wonk out there that figured out how to press the power button. You want to get pissy about the CD-burning capbilities in Lindows? Go bitch at Lindows since they're the ones selling the system as "user-friendly", don't direct your ire at the FOSS crowd that has better things to do than worry about ESR's poor "Aunt Tillie" who can't get her goddamn printer to work on a system that wasn't built for her anyway.

    Was that "arrogant" enough for you?

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    Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
  27. Re:Seattle Times Disses Microsoft by RoLi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    People are just getting tired of Microsoft.

    Microsoft promised that WinNT/2K/XP was more secure than Win9x. Well the biggest worm epidemies ever all have stricken WinNT/2K/XP, so while in theory it might contain some nice security features, it's a lot less secure than Win9x in real life.

    Microsoft also promised that Win2K could run headless (without graphics card and monitor), it doesn't. Then they promised that Windows .NET server aka Win2003 could run headless, it doesn't.

    Now they promise that Longhorn will include so great features that it will set the world on fire. (and it will probably also run headless, although I haven't heard that promise from MS for a while), but in the end it will turn out to be a minor upgrade at a hefty price.

    Just like there are lots of mentally slow people running around firmly beliefing that WinXP is more secure than Win98, there are lots who still believe Microsoft's proclamations. But some have stopped believing them.

  28. Re:Not just those 2 distros by AbbyNormal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    takes about a day

    Here's my breakdown for an average win2k machine. I'm sure some uber nerds could do this blindfolded and quicker, but this is just for comparrison.

    -Win2k vanilla install with basic configurations, 45 minutes (w/reboots).
    -Windows Update Service Packs/patches = 1 hour (cable modem).
    -Average office software (MS OFfice, Firefox, Thunderbird, ZoneAlarm, Symantic Anti-Virus) = 1 hour.

    Heck, you could include the time it takes me to actually build the computer (1.5 hours) and it would not be even close to a day.

    Note: These timeframes are for a home office machine.

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    Sig it.
  29. Re:K3B by PyromanFO · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is probably the most asinine comment about software development I have seen in a long time. Here's the way free software works. You purposely leave out features? Someone comes along and fixes that for you. If you tell them "Hey guys, leave this out so teh users will get l33t and l34rn to h4x0r L0L!" they will ignore you and add them anyway. Why? Because people won't learn the CLI if they don't want to. Computers are tools to be used as we see fit, not the other way around. If a user wants to never touch the CLI it's not your job to try to force them to do otherwise. In fact, if you think it's your job someone will come along and remind you that it's not. That's be beauty of free software, it's a free market.

    So by all means, leave out features to get users to use the l33t CLI. It'll just mean I'll never have to worry about using your software.

  30. Because Lindows.com *has* a marketing practice by mdfst13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mandrake is a nice (and cutting edge) distro. Mandrake markets itself to Linux users who buy software for Linux reasons. By contrast, Lindows.com and Xandros market *directly* at people who would otherwise buy MS.

    Criticizing LindowsOS/Xandros Desktop for not matching up to other Linux distros is missing the point. They are not intended to match up to other Linux distros. If you want to run Linux, forget LindowsOS/Xandros Desktop: install stock Debian (or Mandrake, Gentoo, etc.).

    LindowsOS aims at people who want a cheaper alternative to Microsoft Windows. It is cheaper than MS Windows (that "high yearly fee" of $50 is cheap compared to paying $100 to update Windows and another $300 to update Office; it also gives discounts on various third party software).

    Xandros Desktop is aimed at business users with an existing Microsoft network. It is designed to allow install piecemeal (buy one new Xandros machine at a time) by *MS Windows* admins (as opposed to more expensive Linux admins).

    There are a variety of reasons to choose other distros over LindowsOS/Xandros Desktop. When reviewing Linux distros, this should be noted. The purpose of this article is not to review Linux distros -- it's to review alternatives to MS Windows. Lindows.com and Xandros have positioned their products in that light (largely because it is more profitable to compete against commercial software than shareware) and are reaping the benefits in terms of publicity.

    For whom would you expect them to write articles? 3% of their readers? Or 90+% of their readers? Isn't it obvious?

  31. Re:K3B by gbulmash · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I am an 'average joe' (read: never used linux before). I have a nearly dead Win2k 400mhz pentium box. I would like to use that for some tasks here and there and windows is nearly dead (won't allow files to be dragged anymore, won't load the windows update website, etc). I would like to throw linux on it and use it as a secondary machine behind an OSX laptop, but I am not looking for a hobby. I need something I can use, not something that is a challenge to make work.
    First, the Windows problems you're describing don't sound like they're due to the speed of the machine. It sounds like your Windows installation has gotten old and burdened with various gunk and junk you've picked up over the years. There are some clean-up programs that can help with this, but since you seem ready to install a new OS, why not just back up your important data, re-format the hard drive, and re-install Win2k?

    What do you want to do with the machine that you think installing Linux on it will help with, but a clean, well-running installation of Win2k won't?

    I am by no means advocating Windows. But there is a learning curve to any new OS. If you're an "average joe", not looking for a hobby or learning experience, and Win2k worked on your machine before, I'd say re-installing Win2k is going to be a lot easier for you than migrating to Linux.

    - Greg

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    Start a happiness pandemic