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Need a Job? Move to India
WhoDaresWins writes "As U.S. jobs move abroad, more Americans are willing to work overseas like in India as per a CNN.com story. The story talks about many Americans and also Indians who are American citizens moving to India for work. This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India. With a booming economy there is a need for skilled professionals with years of experience in a western enconomy and industry. Best of all, job listings are available online." Thomas Friedman has a piece called The secret to India's success.
Its not that simple to get a visa to India. Without a visa you can't get hired.
Its not a viable option.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I can go to India, apply for my old job and do the same work for less pay? Well that seems like the very definition of "fair trade".
its a sad day when the american dream is to movie to India.
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
In this new "Global Economy" it only makes sense that people would be willing to move to where the work is. I was ready to move to the US for a geek-gig a few years ago. It's only "news" because the tide of immigration is shifting.
Trolling is a art,
No thanks, America is worth fighting for.
We don't edukate our kids. I'm going to move pretty soon, probably to Bangalore to start a business because only 10% of the people in San Diego can afford to buy a house now.
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India.
Yeah, let me just pack up my family, sell my house and all of my belongings, kiss off my friends, and break every tie that I have by deserting my country so I can go work for $12 an hour.
Thanks for opening my eyes. I'll take my chances here in the US.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
Are we seeing a mini-exodus that signals that India is now the forerunner for the place of opportunity and a chance for success?
I think at some point the outsourcing needs to be regulated or even curbed back. I think also there should be a public list of companies that have outsourced to any foreign land and how many American jobs were lost because of it. I understand these are highly opinionated, but come on, we are cannabalizing ourselves.
Offshoring will never stop if you support the companies that do it. These companies would NOT want to give up the American consumer market for any reason. So if you want them to stop offshoring, stop buying products from companies that offshore. If the government won't do anything to help the American worker. Then the American public needs to do it themselves.
I'm not an economist, but that seems logical to me.
Troll me, but fucked if I'm going to leave the good ol USA for India, when so many people from India (half of our IT staff here) are coming to the US because opportunity and life is better in general in the US. If I can't work in IT, I can work in construction, sales, anything. I can work. If I love to code that much, I can do it after work at home as a hobby.
I see no benefit to uprooting my entire life to go to India so I can write code for so little money, when I can get a temp job here that will pay the rent while I'm submitting resumes and waiting to land a job in IT in the US.
But that's just me.
Excuse my speling.
Making The Bar Project
I was listening to talk radio the other night, and I'm not sure whose show it was (I was just skimming through), but they were saying that one presidential candidates was proposing a tax to these big companies for outsourcing work to make up for unemployment.
I personally think (in my opinion) that's a wonderful idea. Maybe companies would think twice and start giving jobs back to those unemployed.
After all, you could pay someone from India $5 less an hour to do it, but.. you'll end up paying that back in taxes, so you won't really save much.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Outsourcing is just another sign that America and the West in general needs to get its collective shit together. For too long we have ignored Education and Research. Outsourcing is just another fire under the ass of the West that it has to take these things seriously.
We are going to loose some jobs no matter what. That is a fact, but if we stop bitching about jobs moving over seas and actually took seriously and invested in Education and Research, would not have to worry so much about it. As America's we have gotten lazy and we think we are entitled to high paying tech jobs. Well, break the news to you, we're not and 550 Million Indians under the age 25 are also saying the same thing.
Forget election year protectionism speeches. Just make the average American worker more skilled and educated and less jobs will flow over seas.
That's what it is all about. You heard it here first.
Linux O Muerte!
American's look down upon the third world as a shitty place. American's think that when they militarily conqured Japan they became masters of it. When Japanese progressed to challenge American industrial might, the American just pooped in their pants and used muscle techniques with the Japanese. This is nothing new to those of us living in places like India. The Britishers had the same arrogance and even racial superiority written all over (Just read any Raj era literature). When third-world opposed American businesses selling sugar water as cola and repatriating millions of dollars that is a trade barrier. And we are then given lessons in the greatness of free-trade. American's bring is huge industrial production capabilities that disturb the local employment structure. When third world complains it is said the progress is inevitable and productivity is more important than living wages for workers. When Indians create world-class (CMM Level 5) software delivery systems benefiting the American business they are accused of stealing jobs. Why is improved cost-benefit not a good thing? If a minuscle number of Americans prefer to go to grad schools how are Indians at fault for this? This is just the beginning pals, more is yet to come.
I can't find the article, but I read a good piece about an IT Manager in Boston was forced to outsource to save money by the CEO of their company.
Instead, he looked at what they would pay an Indian contractor including costs of working with him overseas ($42,000) and hired people locally, like college graduates, to do the work instead. So granted, some poor programmer making $65,000 is out of a job, but at least that job stayed in the USA and went to some college graduate.
Hopefully this will be the trend, I don't like the fact that everyone in IT is going to be looking at a pay cut, but it's better than losing all our jobs/productivity to India.
$.02
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Right off the bat, this is wrong. The number of jobs being currently outsourced is fairly miniscule in comparison to the total number of jobs in the US. Somehwere less than a million jobs have gone overseas in a workforce of 130 million.
It's weird how slashdot is so pro-freedom, yet so against free markets and free trade when it can potentially affect them negatively. In the end, this outsourcing will only make the US a more efficient workforce and benefit all consumers.
Slashdot Moderation: From positive to terrible in 2 "insightful" posts.
he runs a website devoted to american jobs, what the hell do you think he'd say on national TV? that there really aren't any, so nobody should pay for his service?
Robert,
India is still a developing country, as compared to the US. The true difference here is that developing countries do not have the same existing protocols and laws to support something similar to what goes on in the US. Expecting India to have the same standards as the US is unreal and smacks of ignorance. As someone who has lived in India for 21 years and in the US for 3 years, I have come to know that there are laws for almost everything here in the US. Not true in India...
Of course, the Indian immigration policies are more restrictive, we have an unemployment rate of close to 12%, do you think any country with that high an unemployment rate would ever want foreigners to come and take away their jobs? Besides, the immigration policies in India are in place to keep away poor people from Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh.
However, I strongly believe that Americans going to India for work can be a productive experience for all involved..
That's true. Our crime is very disorganized. Why, we haven't had a good Hindu-Muslim bloodbath over here in the US, why, um, ever. The Indians have one every few months. We really need to get with it.
And our povery here is shameful. We aren't even anywhere near to having a million people living in the streets of our national capital. And our train system? Pathetic. Why, we don't even let cows on the trains or pack hundreds of people on top of the cars.
And, finally, we don't even have a nuclear power on our southern border sending troops into disputed territories and claiming that parts of our country belongs to them. How can we even have the kind of excitement India does when we don't have our own Pakistan?
You're right. Life in America is so much worse. Sign me up for the Indian utopia right away!
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
If you did think the benefits of globalisation were aimed at you, you've been mugged. When politicians and business leaders talk about globalisation they mean for *them*. They told you it would reduce costs and mean cheper products, but they didn't tell you that the reduced costs where as a result of sending your job overseas.
And if you think it's bad now, you aint seen nothing yet.
You did, and are voting for the chaps that aren't just allowing this to happen but are actively working toward it. You want it to stop? Start questioning your candidates as to their position on out-sourcing. Ask them what their position is on what amounts to selling off the IT industry in persuit of short-term gain. Ask them what they intend to do once the process of shipping your IT industry over-seas is complete and any competative edge you once had is lost.
But, but, but the Indian deserves to work too! Absolutely they do. The European and the North American also deserve to yield return on the industries nurtured in those societies. The IT industry did not pop out of the ether, and it was not forged solely on the back of private enterprise, it was built from a wide variety of national as well as private resource.
You are responsible for allowing this to happen when you allow your political leaders to persue their own business interests unchecked.
You should have come in Illeagally from the southern border. Then you would automatically get amnasty from mr bush. Not to mention free health care and a free college degree(if Orin Hatch has his way). Following immigration law is so Passay. Its no longer polically correct to follow laws if you find them distastefull or unconstitutional.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
I pointed this out a few days back... Outsourcing. Whine. Moan. Impossible for us in the USA...blah blah. Now, go and read the last thread on Tech Support humour. Look how many people spent the time insulting (l)users. Now, pick up the phone, dial a tech support number you know to be routed through to India. Compare and contrast. The American will be unable to help you and will most likely be rude. The Indian will be knowledgable, attentive and polite. Compare, contrast and get a clue.
The only way you'll have a standard of living that's above what we'd consider the poverty line here (structurally sound accomodation, clean water, decent food, minimal health care) is if you get a managerial role. Indian programmers simply aren't paid that well, even relative to Indian living costs. They don't live in nice houses, they don't drive cars, they don't aspire to buying boats and retiring early. They basically aspire to not leaving debts for their children. That's why you see so many of them over here.
Now, if you're quick, you will be able to land one of those management/consulting roles. Now, next question: how long are you going to be able to keep it? Are you really skilled enough to keep ahead of a bunch of talented, enthusiastic - and, not insignificantly - native Indians?
Bonus point question: during any job reshuffle, will you be the last to go, or the first to go?
Extra credit question: when you get tired of chasing jobs that pay well enough to pay for health cover and want to move back to the US, will your period of low wages negatively impact your ability to buy your way back into the US property and financing markets? Think carefully about your answer.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I have several co-workers that are Indian. They say that the starting wage for someone out of college in India, in those high-wage markets is like 10,000 rupees a month. This is about $2000 US a month.
However, for 1000 rupees a month, you can get yourself a butler/servant. As well, rent is like 1000 rupees a month, meaning you have several thousand rupees left to do what you want.
If you have more experience, I would think 20,000 rupees a month is more reasonable, which means that you could easily save $3000 US dollars a month and still live like a king, which is not bad at all. Even assuming 0% interest except inflation and no raises, after 10 years you could come back with almost $400,000 US. Not too bad...
However, hell would freeze over before I moved to India... I'd rather just take my chances here in the US.
Slashdot needs to drop the pro India stance. Every article I read has been how wonderful India is and how outsourcing our jobs is a great thing. Drop it! Outsourcing to India is not a great thing, India is not a wonderful place to live. It is almost impossible for a forgien worker to get a job there.
Indian work is not up to the same standard as American work is. For every "successful" indian outsource story there are 100 of stories that tell just the opposite. The tell of how shotty indian work is. How cost overruns drive the costout of control. We see stories of how indian workers routinly leak private information, steal IP. Why don't we see those stories here too.
Slashdot has the pro indian glasses on and all they see is how rosie it is.
Love Cringley and all that but I think he is confused and misinformed. You need a job first to get a H-1B and so is the case in moving to India. Find a job and the visa is yours to take.
Well, not to be a butt-head, but...
I cannot believe that there are still people that think a programmer or sysadmin type has some divine right to earn USD$80,000!
We live in a global economy. Deal with it. Every heard of that new-fangled thingy called the "In-Ter-Net?" Guess what? It reduces the effect of the "distance" variable to nearly zero in some equations!
If your only redeeming quality, to your employter, is that fact that you are "near", and some other person is "far", guess what -- maybe you can get a job as Grover on Sesame Street, after your boss cans your a**.
If you have chosen a lifestyle that demands a high income for commodity work, then get prepared to walk away from your house and car. The days of Trade Unions dicatating, and IT people demaning, high wages is almost over.
-- -pjk Perry Kundert perry@kundert.ca http://kundert.2y.net
I don't know if I agree (in my experience, most outsourcers in poorer countries are in a far better position than American labor of the early 20th century) but that was a well-put argument.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
"We've ignored education and Research..."
But, one can't help but see the commoditization of high tech skills that has gone on over the past 2 years all over the world. (even pre-9/11).
Dr. Norman Matloff's 1999 study on immigration and high tech work is finally resonating with the average Joe. But the cheapening of the work force, both foreign and domestic continues. Just check out the March 11, 2004CNN Lou Dobbs transcripts from last night's program on increasing the H1-B quota (again), and later on in the program a chat with a Republican congressman about the rosy future in high tech and the coming job shortages (chuckle). How many more fake high tech developer "shortages" do we need to endure?
Go ahead and try. Convice your congresscritters to pass the "No Jobs Overseas" bill, and you'll find that American products and services are suddenly higher than similar products and services available for import from Asia, Europe, or India.
Used to be, the cost of information flow was expensive. If you manufactured doohickeys in Dallas, you had your customer support staff located in Dallas. With cheap communications, you can locate your CSR's anywhere, or everywhere -- to save a few pennies on every doohickey you make, which allows you to stay competitive against all the other (foreign and domestic) doohickey makers.
The free market is now global. Can't stop globalization in a free market. Don't want a free market? Try Cuba.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
Man, you do not understand this. People in India earn less AND PAY LESS. They are not abused, well, not programmers anyway.
Why do they pay less? Because the goods and services that those well-paid programmers consume are made by a poverty-stricken people who are abused.
There's no denying that this is good for India, but let's keep looking at the bigger picture.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
the only reason IT jobs are outsourced to india is cost. English language and good education make it feasbile, but its all about the $$$. If the labor rates were anywhere near the same there wouldn't be any outsourcing there. It wouldn't matter if everyone in India had a PhD and a Nobel Prize.
All this blather obout how much smarter the Indians are is like the Japanese guy in 'Black Rain' telling Michael Douglas that 'we will own America in 10 years'. Its just bragging based on a temporary bubble. Just after that movie the Japanese economy collapsed and hasn't really recovered completely in over 15 years.
All that said, the only answer for Americans is to do what we did in the 80's/early 90's against Japan. Become more competitive. Unions, tariffs, sanctions will just kill the American IT industry and make everything more expensive in the US. We have to get off our butts and figure out how to compete.
Ahem. Indians who are American citizens are Americans.
Just thought I'd point out the (probably unconscious) racism that underpins the framing of this issue.
Normally, i detest whiners who complain about moderation, but this is a truly exceptional case.
How is it that a post that starts off with a "cleverly" disguised racial epithet (Translation for the clue impaired: "Fuh Q Raghead" = Fuck you raghead.) has anything other than flamebait mods?
The rest of the argument is entirely redundant when taken in context with the rest of the posts on this article, so what's the excuse?
Note to the cretin who wrote the original post: "raghead" is most often applied to Arabs, not Indians. If you're going to be a bigotted asshole you should at least do it right!
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- get fired from your job
- give up your home
- move away from your friends
- move away from your extended family
- move your family away from their family and
their friends
- move to a foriegn culture in the 3rd world
- accept a lower standard of living
- take a cut in pay
All so billionaires and millionaires can have a tiny bit more money
What a special deal!
Steve
I moved to the U.S. at the age of fifteen and now, almost ten years later, I cannot imagine living elsewhere. You might think that I have become a spoiled young brat with a nice BMW in his garage because I say these things, and you're wrong. I am just an average American dude who works as a sys. admin and pays his taxes. Why would I maintain my average status in the United States if I could get a better life in India? Here are my reasons.
The beauty of the United States is its lack of a mainstream culture, an official religion and strong traditions. That is enough to keep me in this county because I can be whatever I want to be and theoretically I am protected under the Constitution.
I can choose my religion and whether I want to celebrate certain holidays. I am going to marry a girl of my choice and nobody will stop me from doing it. When I have kids, my daughter and my son will have equal opportunities and when they grow up, they will be allowed to date and live with their partners (regrdless of their partner's gender) before they get married. That is the beauty of the United States and this is priceless. I have visited many countries and I have met a lot of people; my experiences suggest that although the United States is not the perfect country, it is a good place to live and would like to stick with it.
Please do not get me wrong: I am not trying to put India down. I am sure that it is a great country that has a log of great people. However, if I had to choose between Boston and Bombay, I would stick with the former simply because my views are closer to Western culture and because I value personal freedoms that exist in the United States.
I agree with your point in its entirety. See my response here.
People forget that the economy isn't something external - it's something we're all a part of. Free markets can and will be changed by people voting with their dollars, pounds, and rupees.
Free markets will never be effectively changed through legislation - there's no point in trying.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
The beauty of the United States is its lack of a mainstream culture, an official religion and strong traditions. That is enough to keep me in this county because I can be whatever I want to be and theoretically I am protected under the Constitution.
However, if I had to choose between Boston and Bombay, I would stick with the former simply because my views are closer to Western culture and
The former contradicts the later, dont you think? There is a mainstream culture in US. Its the McD's culture. Every small town is virtually indistinguishable from every other small town, except when you encounter minorities - amish, mormons or Red Indian tribes or mexicans/blacks and like.
Your assumptions that people outside your country dont have the same rights as you is ridiculous. Some of the European contries have more freedoms than what you got. Just like in the US, if u fuck with the administration,u wud get screwed elsewhere too.
Its laughable to suggest that India has a mainstream culture. India is the most diverse place in the world. There are 18 official languages, if I am correct. I see people in US crying fowl when there are instructions written in Spanish - just a 2nd language spoken around here. Its a standard practise to write it in 3 languages atleast in India. India has more religious cults than US.. both wacko and non-wacko. There are certain religions that survived only because they chose to live in India - like the Zorastrians aka Parsis - originally from Persia, all but wiped out due to the advent of Islam. They have been around for 1000 years in India. FYI - India even has MORMONS and some stone age negroid tribes who are, well, living in stone age still.
And yea - Hindus dont believe that all non-hindus are evil and go to hell.
US is a good country for an average guy because of the number of opportunities available. US is a great country for the really smart too. In India life has been tough for past 300 yrs. Only the best shine there.. Its not a country I would recommend for the mediocre americans.
Now now.. lets not issue blanket statements shall we..
:) (Yes, that is a blanket statement).
:)
From those last two lines, you come off as someone who absolutely has no understanding nor knowledge of India, its culture and its people.
Sure, I agree that women are abused in various parts of this country, but women arent obviously hated!! Remember, we had a woman as our Prime Minister when the rest of the world was still letting their women run around in Bikinis and swinging to pop culture
The biggest problem in India is that there are still an immensely large population that has no education, has no healthcare, has no idea how to stand up for their rights. Corrupt politicians are not delegated to the Western world, we have them as well.
The Hindu Religion (Despite being a Christian myself, I have immense respect for Hinduism and for other religions as well), does not look down upon the women, the so called "holy" individuals who wanted to bend their religion to their needs and wishes, decreed that women were inferior. As a religion and among its scriptures and texts, Hinduism has utmost regard for Woman as a Mother, Wife, Sister, Friend and an Equal. And believe me, this religion and the indian culture has existed for thousand more years than the Western Civilization and Christianity (heck, Christianity came to India way before it reached the Western world, in 52B.C when St. Thomas reached the southern tip of India). So yes, this is a Land which is steeped in culture, which has treated women with utmost respect in all corners of it, and yet has been vandalized and abused by people in power, by religious nuts, who had their own agendas.
And when United States (formerly known as Land of the Free) shudders at the thought of letting immigrants who werent born here, having a shot at being President, India has no qualms in letting the Wife of a Former Prime Minister who was born and raised in Italy, get a swipe at becoming the nation's Prime Minister. Also, voting rights for Women, We didnt had to think twice about that either.
Oh one more thing when you are still trying to comprehend.. Gay Marriage is Legal in India (we just dont let them fornicate, now thats another story!)
So please crawl back to your trailer and show not your face and your intellect to the rest of us (That if you didnt know was surely a blanket statement, but meant solely for you)
Rapid Nirvana
I already addressed this "cruelty to women" in the same thread elsewhere, so heres the link. Agree or not, its up to you.
:)
Now, you speak volumes about how we abuse and devalue our women.. (Devalue is such a perfect word!). Would you care to switch on your TV?? Hmm.. how about you look at the print media, the Ads, the Sports. Everywhere you see nothing but SKIN!. Now after what America and its people has done to degrade and devalue the image of women, I am not sure there is anything left for us poor Indians to do!
Seriously dude, climb out of your hole and visit India for once. You will find it not much different than any other place you been to. Dont take what you read/watch on TV, at face value. Dont you want to find out for yourself???
You really need to stop believing what others tell you and get a job in India.
Rapid Nirvana
So in other words, corporatons are rigging the labor markets. I think as Amercians we need to put a stop to this. Amercians need to FORCE the government to pass laws requiring Amercians to hire Amercians before they hire imported guest workers in Amercia. That, and not "jobs going overseas" is the real problem.
This is correct. In fact, offshoring often simply exacerbates divisions between rich and poor in the "host countries" and can actually lead to global instability. See Amy Chua's "World On Fire" for an alternate (and, IMHO, much more accurate) viewpoint.
That is all.
What I am about to say applies to capitalism in general (so don't assume it's just the computer industry; what I say should equally apply to, say, farming).
You are wrong
I think your understanding of capitalism is completely wrong. There is NO SUCH thing as CONSERVATION under capitalism. This is why capitalism can increase the wealth (eg. GDP) of a country. In fact, trade can increase the wealth of all countries that engage in it*. If your assertion were correct, this wouldn't happen (the total wealth in the world will be constant). Your conservation principle is automatically violated by the growth in wealth.
Why some don't support the present
There are many reasons people are against what is happening. Clearly some people are racist and don't want to see "other kind" get jobs. Some people on this message board have already shown that. Then there are others who are clueless when it comes to economics and somehow think that they "own" the jobs (whatever that means). I'm not any of these. I'll tell you why I'm against so-called "free trade" and the most popular form of capitalism today, neo-liberal economics.
I'm not a capitalist, and I'm not a nationalist either. I could care less about countries (I can't wait until all countries dissapear). The problem with so-called free trade is the following. We know for sure that trade benefits countries. However, the benefits can be shared in many different ways. One country can benefit completely, or the other, or in a mixture of some sort. *I* claim that what is happening is that the benefits of trade accrues to the shareholders and their corporations (what Marxists would call capitalists). I further claim that what passes for "free trade" these days is nothing more than an attempt by capitalists to undermine worker rights and environmental regulations, among others. Capitalists have always been angry for the success of the socialist policies enacted in defense of the workers (eg. minimum wage, inability to fire without cause, mandatory paid holidays, etc). You just need to read popular press or economist opinions over the last 50 years to see what I mean. What is happening now is simply removing the regulations placed by socialists in the past. When you move to a poor country, all these regulations dissapear IN THE LONG TERM.
The worker, either in India or in USA, do not benefit--although some may or may not benefit in the short term. The American worker loses because their wages are driven down (close to zero). The Indian worker loses because their job is temporary** and nothing more than a transit job. Overall, workers are worse off. A job which provided good working conditions all of a sudden doesn't have these worker benefits. I am a socialist and to me, it seems like everything we*** fought for and won won is slowly being eroded. For instance, a country like USA or Canada mandates the number of hours you work or the number of vacation days you get. The poorer countries either don't have as strong of a regulation or don't enforce it. When a job moves from USA to say Mexico, you automatically lose the worker benefits.
So that's why I am against what passes for free trade these days. Make no mistake about it: I'm in favour of trade. But the type of trade I like is called fair trade (a concept foreign to capitalists).
Capitalist defense
Finally, I'll mention what the capitalists are saying about all this. A lot of capitalists like their country so it's not as if the American capitalists are out to destroy their country. The capitalist argument was mentioned by Thomas Friedman in one of his previous articles that was mentioned on Slashdot. Basically, it says that countries benefit from trade (true) and USA, in this case, will create superior jobs to replace those lost through innovation (questionable). Of course, capitalists like Friedman don't mention that the shareholders and their corporations are the ones that benefit in the end.
My Prediction
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
A minor problem is that Friedman is full of shit, but who needs facts when you've got a newspaper to sell?
[o]_O