Slashdot Mirror
Need a Job? Move to India
WhoDaresWins writes "As U.S. jobs move abroad, more Americans are willing to work overseas like in India as per a CNN.com story. The story talks about many Americans and also Indians who are American citizens moving to India for work. This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India. With a booming economy there is a need for skilled professionals with years of experience in a western enconomy and industry. Best of all, job listings are available online." Thomas Friedman has a piece called The secret to India's success.
...this story...
libertarianswag.com
If you move to India, where jobs are going because they pay dirt cheap wages, what are the chances that you'll ever be able to come BACK to the United States?
If you do, chances are you'll be in poverty because you will have saved very little and your job here will *still* be gone.
Gee, what a deal! *sigh*
Only if living in American climate, American culture, American political/legal system, near to your family and friends has no value to you. Materially you might be better off, yes. Perhaps you would prefer Indian climate and culture, yes. Maybe you don't even like your family and friends that much and wouldn't mind moving 10 timezones away. But for most people, this is a drastic step.
Constitutionally Correct
Actually, it is that simple to get a visa to India. I did it myself not too long ago.
Everyone in India is perfectly aware this Indian boom is good as long as it lasts, but it will end, and they prepare for this already. They claim their jobs will gradually move to Philippines and other countries where labour is even cheaper.
So, if you plan to go to India, remember to save for the return ticket...
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
Check it out, it's a good read.
Excerpt: "So I went on the web to see how easy it would be to emigrate to India. I found NOTHING. I called the Indian Embassy in Washington, DC and asked how I could emigrate to India. They didn't know what I was talking about. What the Indian Embassy was prepared to discuss was how my U.S. employer might transfer me to India for some period of time. I told them PBS had no such expansion plans to my knowledge, though they might make an exception just for me. They were also willing to discuss how I might go to India as an entrepreneur, bringing capital into the country and starting a new business there employing Indians. I told them I had no money to invest. And the idea that I'd just arrive at the Mumbai equivalent of Ellis Island looking for a job, well they found that rather amusing. You can't just move to India it turns out. Someone there has to want you -- no, they have to NEED you -- OR you have to be bringing with you a big suitcase of cash to start a business. Journeyman techies need not apply. It's interesting that Indian immigration policies are more restrictive than U.S. immigration policies. There is no true Indian equivalent, for example, of our H1-B work visas. There is no quid pro quo. But then there is also no wave of U.S. engineers clamoring to move to India."
Friedman apparently spent a couple weeks in Bangalore recently. He's been writing about his experiences in his New York Times column (the tinfoil-hatted masses thank michael for linking to a mirror that doesn't require signing over your mortal soul). The gist of what he says is that the outsourcing of programming grunt work to India still leaves the creative work in America. This is not to say that Indians are uncreative people, good for nothing but code monkeys. Rather, the American firms choose not to outsource the creative work. Of course, the day may come (and given some of the driven, intelligent Indians I've known, I'm sure it will) where the Indian firms that began by doing outsourced code start developing ideas of their own to compete with the American firms. This may sound like Doomsday for some of you whose jobs hang in the balance, but I'm an optimist, and I believe that the American economy (and its workers) can adapt to the change. Goodness knows it's happened before.
"Den som vover mister Fodfaeste et Oieblik; den som ikke vover mister Livet." -Soren Kierkegaard
I have a little piece on the secret to India's success.
CHEAP LABOR
Thank you, I'll have another deep probing piece next week.
This is the most depressing article I've ever seen. Get paid Indian wages, but have to live in the US and pay high US prices? I think I'd rather move to Bangalore, where at least the cost of living and the wages match.
I've lived in the US for almost 20 years and I can't get my visa straightened out or work legally. So I'm in graduate school but I can't take a teaching or research assistantship (even though I've been offered) since that's considered working, and though I'm qualified in terms of ability, I can't get fellowships because they're reserved for US residents and citizens. yeah, life's tough. But you still have a hell of a lot more options than I do.
You say it's not viable, but think of the MANY MILLIONS of Indians that try to come to the US. Only few make it. Of course, here, there seems to be many. But that dwarfs how many don't make it. Not to mention the countless other countries.
I'm not from India, but from Nepal. A country that's even more impoverished with political and other problems. And I've lived in this country so long and there was no Nepali community growing up that my Nepali is very poor. Yeah for me. It's always important to keep in mind that there are billions who have it worse. That's what I have to keep reminding myself.
As someone else said, I understand how fortunate I am, though I don't feel it. I think its important for people to at least understand it and realize how many ways they have it much better. It's always possible to see others who have it better in some ways or another. And obviously you want to better you standing. But that's not where happiness nor peace come from.
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
Yeah, let me just pack up my family, sell my house and all of my belongings, kiss off my friends, and break every tie that I have by deserting my country so I can go work for $12 an hour.
Exactly... If we were all willing to take $12 an hour, they wouldn't need to ship jobs elsewhere.
For a less drastic solution, try moving to the midwest. Although we have seen the effects of the recession, there isn't the same level of competition here as on the coast. The pay is a little lower on average, but you can buy a 4 bedroom house an hour away from any midwestern city for $150k. It has the same effect as moving to India (lower pay, lower cost of living), just to a lesser extent.
Feel free to compare Missouri to third world countries below:
While many will point out that even a reduced salary would go farther in India, the enormous plunge in quality of life just isn't worth it (to me at least).
While spending 10 days in Mumbai and Chennai auditing Citigroup's new offshore partners, I was courted by the senior staff of one of them. "Come work for us, and you can live like a rajah! Your wife's a doctor? Forget it, she won't have to work, and she'll have servants!"
Even treated like a prince, put up in 4 star hotels, eating in the best restaurants, invited to private clubs most of the population can't get inside, my trip to India was a visit to hell.
Monstrous traffic, unbelievable overcrowding, incredible numbers of beggars, and Mumbai smelled like burning garbage... everywhere.
No thanks.
Is it? Really?
Surely seeing another country is a positive experience. India is, by all accounts (my experience consists of 2 hours in an airport, aged 11) a beautiful country. It seems to me that India would be a fascinating place to work. And with a lower cost-of-living there's always the possibility that you might return home with more money that you'd have had if you stayed.
My dream is to experience as much of the World as I can - I never saw that as being incompatible with the American dream.
This is where the serious fun begins.
While I'm not arguing that outsourcing is harmless, it would be useful if people educated themselves adequately on the subject. The Economist in particular has had many quality articles on the subject (like this one). Here's a particular quote of interest...
"Government statisticians reckon that outsourced jobs are responsible for well under 1% of those signed up as unemployed. And the jobs lost to outsourcing pale in comparison with the number of jobs lost and created each month at home. Even here, the rate of job "churn" has, for unclear reasons, been falling since mid-2001."
Food for thought at least...
Harken back to the recent past, where workplace regulations were a dream, businesses routinely exposed their workers to deadly risk to save pitiful amounts of money, everyone worked weekends, and the minimum wage was zero dollars and zero cents.
Fighting an epic, intensely violent and brutal struggle against their aristocrats (adverseries so used to victory they had become surprisingly complacent), the proletariat of America carved out a victory, and they did it without abandoning capitalism or resorting to the dangers of political revolution - though we certainly came close on a number of occasions.
We now live in shocking wealth and splendor - a victory for the "common man" made possible through a lively democratic process and a series of reforms that dragged business owners, wailing, kicking and screaming, into the modern age - where the entire standards of what was acceptable in terms of working conditions, wages, and workplace safety changed. Yes, it cost more money. And... what a surprise - with a newly propsperous middle-class, it was also intensely profitable.
Free Trade was thus inevitable. It's the prisoner's dillemma of the modern business.
The issue has proved a bit too subtle for most people to grasp thus far, even as it impoverished America and eviscerated the progress of the middle and lower classes, handing victory after victory to regressive enterprises.
The question free trade raises is simple. Is it cheaper to produce goods and services in a society where the underclass is abused?
Why be surprised?
The American South used to produce cotton so cheap, you'd think it was picked by slaves.
The sad irony is that (with only a little help), we're doing it to ourselves. All I have to do is hold up cheap jeans, and the underclass will skewer itself on its own greed, happily selling themselves out to save money at the cash register, never wondering about the hidden costs of trade without policy, never quite realizing that they had just bought back into laissez faire capitalism.
And yes, when you admit that national boundaries can contain arbitrary laws but not trade, that is exactly what you just returned to. The fleet, famously, travels as fast as its slowest ship.
In America, when we legislated ourselves a decent life, we made it impossible to compete with those who lived indecent ones.
Of course, we shouldn't have to compete with them.
The logical extension is to ask a farm worker to find a job in a field full of slaves. His value is reduced to nothing.
"But Slavery is Illegal!" the farmworker shouts. "Not in Namibia," the slaves reply.
Free Trade is a code word. It stands for the elimination of the 1st world's gains for its ordinary people - by forcing them to compete with what they are bound to lose against: the economies of worker abuse.
Its proponents depend on the American population's ignorance of the issues. You can talk around it in circles with most people, while all the time they have carefully insulated themselves from the basic issue at hand:
Is it OK if I break the law, as long as I do it out of your sight? To people you don't care about? Maybe people in another country?
Free Trade is supposed to reduce the importance of nations and bring about the ascendance of a global community. And it has! The American Working Class is no longer in America. They are in India, China, and Indonesia! Mexico, and Costa Rica, and Guatemala! They are in Afghanistan, growing our opium, and in Iraq, pumping our oil.
So I welcome you all, prosperous last descendants of the old 1st world dream, back into the world you created.
Welcome to India. I hope they really do let you go. Just don't be surprised when you realize it's a one-way trip.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Actually, this could probably even be done legitimately. Ostensibly US companies frequently incorporate in other countries for tax purposes, so why not incorporate in India instead? Then you really could pitch your services as outsourcing to an Indian firm. Hey you enterprising Indians over there, somebody could probably make a decent business out of setting up shell corporations for US programmers.
If those 5000 jobs are worth 11 billion dollars annually , then perhaps we should be trying to emigrate to India. I'd take those wages for a couple years.
However, I know that my compnay has been laying people off over the past couple years, declining to hire locally, and now employs ~200 people in Bangalore, as well as a bunch in the Phillipines. And we're not a huge company...
5000 my ass.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
It's a very immature attitude to take. In a free market, you've got to roll with the punches, and live to fight another day. You either adapt or die, bitching about it and instigating artificial means to shore-up the failing market just makes the problem worse. The root of this issue is the stupidly-inflated market values for things in the US compared to other countries. Solve that problem, and the jobs will flood back to the US.
The US could maintain an edge in the global economy. Alan Greenspan said a few weeks back that the world economy has developed around Intellectual Property, rather than goods. It would seem that all the US would therefore have to do would be to invest in IP development right here in the home turf.
:)
Where would the investment money come from? I would say cut the $500 billion military budget and use for something more useful than killing random foreigners.
Here's how:
1. Spend $200 billions developing an high-bandwith communications infrastructure to every citizen.
2. Develop an National University level educational program that takes advantage of that infrastructure. The programs would be tailored for creative intellectual property development. It doesn't have to be high-tech engineering/science. Just stuff that people could use to come up with new ideas. Must include business-like entrepreneurial training (marketing/management...). It could be cooking school for chefs to come up with new recipes, it could be engineering programs, it could be the arts, and so on... Avoid churning out low-ip degrees, like accounting or law.
3. Allow every US citizen to get a new degree to raise their educational level. Call it the "Everybody-gets-a-new-job" program. Fund it with $200 billion. This could fund 10 million people a year at $20,000/person/year.
4. Create a $200 billion venture capital fund. This could be used as seed capital for 200,000 new starup businesses. (that's a lot of businesses..) Allocate funds to new companies based on ideas developed from educational program. The new businesses could be things like restaurants or engineering firms or movie studios, for example... Points for companies that can create more US jobs. Each new company probably could hire 10 people/million dollar investment. That would add about 2 million jobs.
5. Profit.
I think this would work out better than forcing businesses to keep jobs in the US. Let capitalism do it's thing. If the Indians do the same stuff for cheaper, let them. Instead, we should be developing new stuff right here, rather than forcing businesses to pay for overpriced labor.
I ran my Monster query [(unix or linux) AND (perl OR shell OR scripting OR debian OR "red hat" OR solaris OR admin OR administrator OR web OR apache) AND NOT "work at home"] against US jobs:
Query Results
Then the SAME query against Indian jobs:
Query Results
79 for US, 3,433 for India. Yep, and now I'm even more depressed, and that's saying quite a bit. I have GOT to get out of this industry as soon as possible.
El riesgo vive siempre!
India is not where the job influx will occur soon there will be demanding more then what the businesses want to give. They are in the limelight now but will soon be replaced.
The question is which world Government can be purchased to do work? Which region is stable enough to get stuff done.
I would look to Africa as the next employment center if it passes by the Middle East. Key here is business needs stability not Democracy. They need a stable pro-business exploitation. That is a Government who will make sure it is profitable for the few at the expense of the many.
One thing to note is that India is not creating anything new. It is just the center of work. When the Companies who are there feel that they will get better ROI else where the move will occur.
So what truly the US and the Industrialized world needs is more Investment in innovation.
Remember I need some capital to purchase the goods to make the prototypes, which will become the templates for the Factories. If I do not have this Investment, guess what all the education and study will be worth $0.00 in any currency. Can not wait till India realizes she has no Industry to call her own and that she is at the mercy of the business which are higher then your Government.
Much more opinion to say but will soon go off topic. By the way, vote come November then Protest at the Swearing in Ceremony for Employment because the Unemployed are excellent Recruits for any cause and the smaller the Establishment the easier the task is.
Most of the comments I see here are from guys who feel its beneath them to go to a different country, work at a rate considerably less than what they "used" to get paid here and live out a satisfactory life. Nope, they want to live here, since they are used to their lifestyle here, live among the opulence of others (even when they dont have it), and grudge day in and day out about lost opportunities and how well the market seemed a few years ago. Sorry boss.. its true that you dont have that many options anymore, and yes, its true that corporate america has screwed you in the arse ultimately, and has chosen India as its new bed partner.
Think about this, all these software engg you see or hear about in India do not take for granted that their jobs will stay and hold for the rest of their lives. And you, God forbid!, who lives in a Capitalist community believes having a well paid job is a privilege??? I hate Corporate America, their lobbyists and the politicians who would jump in to bed with the lot if they could top their coffers, but at the same time I pity the arrogance of people who feel that its beneath them to get out of this country and look for better jobs, better wages and a better life elsewhere in the world. Yes, you might have to cut your ties for a while, you may have to sell or stash everything you got for a while, yes you might have to get new friends for a while, just imagine what you would lose out if you were to stay inside your little coccoon for the rest of your life, with out being exposed to the different people,cultures,life styles,sports out there that you didnt know about?
I have been in US for the last five years of my life and I have seen and experienced more than I could ever bargain for and I have been better off for the most. I found new friends, people who I would have otherwise never find, I found a life which was better in some ways that I could have back in India, and I found slashdot. So yes, I am better off, in my own ways.
So, get off that pedestal and start seeing the world with a whole different perspective. Learn that life and people exist outside your community. And while you are at it, get a job somewhere else in the world and find out why everyone else think American's (atleast some) are so oblivious to the rest of the world and what they think. Good luck!
Rapid Nirvana
Well it's not that simple. In reality engineers, particularly engineers with international work experience make a very good living in India relative to the cost of living. So despite the fact that you would be paid less in absolute dollars, you could most certainly greatly increase your standard of living vs. the US. For example software engineers in India make about 1/4 to 1/6 that of an enginneer in the US. But at the same time a nice dinner out will cost you $1-3, or 1/10 to 1/20 what it'll cost in the US. How many engineers in the US do you know with a driver and a full time maid? It's not that uncommon in India. I'm Northern-European American and my wife is Indian and we've seriously looked at living in India, and not for economic reasons, but the economics of it are not unappealing. Only big gothca is retirement planning. It's hard to earn in Ruppees and plan for retirement in US Dollars.
It seems to me that a lot of people think this is all about American's thinking Indian's shouldn't work... That's really not what it's about. It's about american companies saving a buck by sending jobs overseas. I don't have a problem with Indian's working... I have a problem with America shipping all of it's work overseas. Then the money goes overseas. It's not that I don't want Indian's to have an economy too... I just don't think it should come at a cost of american jobs.
If there was a shortage of programmers in the US... then sure, send some work overseas. However, when programmers can't find work and comanies are still sending jobs overseas, it's not good for our economy.
There was an interesting news feature a week or so ago where one company that was starting up decided to offer experienced programmers $40,000/year instead of (what they said the industry standard) $80,000/year. They had no problems finding people to hire and kept jobs here.
It's not a question of India's people and how good/bad they are... it's about keeping US jobs in the US during a time when the economy isn't the greatest.
Actually, you don't know how right you are. My father came to study (did Masters and PhD) with funding from international agencies and he came with a J visa status. That requires that he returns to his country of origin for two years (makes sense). Since I came some months after him, I was put under the same restrictions. If I had come illegally, I wouldn't have had those restrictions. Seriously, once you start studying in the US, when do you want to take a two year break from your education?
:D
Also, if you get a job (illegally), a house and other things, then you can show ties to this country and would have a better case for not being deported, whereas if you follow the law, you'd have less ties.
My case is an even more interesting one. My visa didn't support me when I turned 21 since parents can no longer sponsor their children 21 and older. That puts me in an interesting category. I'm not illegal but somewhat "out-of-status". However, if I decided to leave the country and INS found out, then I'd be barred from re-entering for 10 years. Funny how that works out isn't it
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
I can however say I've had great luck in Brazil. I moved here after the market imploded in 2001. The java market is hot, most places I've worked at let me use linux, and culturally its very kool. The currency is 3 Reals to 1 dollar, so its competively priced on the market.
As far as work visas, they are almost impossible to get, as it is most everywhere. I was able to find work under the table though, and then eventually got married and automatically became legal.
I'm very happy - no regrets whatsoever. In fact, seemed like a good time to leave the states - I haven't been back since.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen Hawking
Why? What do we gain by maintaining a disadvantageous free trade relationship?
Free trade isn't a moral or ethical choice, it's an economic and political one; the material loss and gain is all that's considered here (sidestepping the queston of humanitarian issues).
Argh! Perhaps if they moved all the business jobs to India, the Indian replacements wouldn't try to things like that to the English language.
Well fine, lets all creatovate new words into the language. It does not matter how uglyscusting they sound, or whether a perfectly adequasufficient synonym already exists.
${YEAR+1} is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop!
For one, you've now got a common currency among other EU member states. Which in turn makes it more attractive to move among EU countries easily. If I could move to Turin (my favorite Northern Italian city, believe it or not) I'd do it in a heartbeat. It's in close proximity to other great European cities. What is Mumbai close to?
Perhaps not quite first world, but a lot closer to the US than to India in living conditions. 3 years ago when I last checked I could move to Spain and get a job, no more paperwork required. The only restriction is I could not stay in the country for more than 3 months at a time, but just going to France for a weekend (only a couple hour drive) is the obvious way around that restriction. (The only hard part is getting proof that you visited, with the EU there is nobody to stamp your passport)
My Spanish isn't good enough to get a good job there, and I really didn't try. Nice country though, I wouldn't mind living there.
Yeah. I'm a management student from India. Just wanted to clear up a few things. IT exports only constitute 3-4% of India's total exports. BPOs/IPOs employ only a few hundred thousand Indians , just a fraction of the country's work force. So the whole IT/outsourcing thing is not as important as it is made out to be... The reason the ICE (IT,Telecom ,Entertainment[India has the world's fastest growing market for mobile phones and an estimated 400 million cable tv users]) sector has such a high profile in India is because it is India's best performing and fastest growing sector. The reason India has done relatively well lately in the ICE sector is because it is free from government interference and foreign investment is encouraged. And obviously because of the huge skilled labor force.
But to move to the next level , which is to compete with China , India has to free its manufacturing sector ,open it to foreign investment , deregulate , disinvest and debureacratise. This can potentially employ literally tens of millions and take away the pressure from the IT industry.
To the angry geeks of slashdot , India might be a place which takes away their jobs by offering to do the same at 1/10th the price. But to me , as somebody who plans to have some say in India's future as an administrator and policy maker some day soon , I'm more concerned about the untapped potential in India's manufacturing sector.
It is important when you consider a country as big as India to look at the Big Picture. India already has the 4th highest PPP GDP in the world at $3 trillion . Any slight increase in the average Indian's per capita will lead to a phenomenal national growth. This can easily be achieved by opening up the economy and implematation of liberalisation and acceptance of globalisation in its totality.
--------
And regarding the proposal to move to India - forget it guys. Last week , I know for a fact that as many as 9000 qualified engineers competed for a single entry level position in one of India's IT companies. Not surprising because India produces 200,000 engineering graduates every year. So it is actually much easier to get a job in US than in India.
Infact I plan to try for a job in one of the top consultancy firms in US later this year if I can't get through the IAS (Indian Administrative Service) exams....
This is a "wake-up call" for U.S. workers to redouble their efforts at education and research
Yeah, right. As usual, it's up to the people who do the actual work to figure out how to cope with these market forces. When U.S. employers have trouble making money because of foreign competition, the government is happy to step in and help them out with subsidies, tariffs and trade agreements. But when they find a bunch of smart people on the other side of the world who can live well on $20,000/year, well, then the story changes. Realities of global competition... free market forces at work... you're lucky to have that job... you don't want the government to run your life, do you? Now get back to flipping those burgers.
As usual, American businesses can't see very far ahead because they're bent over picking up dimes. The average American family has more than $8000 in credit card debt. That doesn't include mortgages or our individual share of the national debt, which is more than a typical Indian programmer's annual salary. As American incomes drop, I don't know how these businesses expect us to buy all the spendy crap they are continually shoving at us.
The answers seem to be more advertising and easier credit. Or maybe they expect a flood of online orders from customers in India. Like that will happen.
America has no special reason to be blame-free for kicking up a stink. It's America's fault it's in this mess, so America only has itself to blame.
The notion America is being "bled dry" is common, and incorrect. It's impossible to bleed America completely dry, due to the sheer size of the market. Funnily enough, a good blood letting would help the market by lowering costs.
The whole world works hard. Saying America deserves more because it built "an industrial infrastructure the ... world envies" is, quite frankly, ridiculous. First of all, the world doesn't envy the US's infrastructure (look at the powercuts and oil dependency, lack of environmental standards/worker protection, no healthcare, etc.), and second of all, the rest of the world works just as hard (possibly even harder) for less. America's pissed because instead of getting a great deal, they're now just getting a good deal.
America has never been the place to go for help. Look at WW2 - Europe needed the US's help, but it sat on its hands for YEARS. In the end it helped by selling old arms to the Brits, in return for land bases across the Empire. There was no altruism there - the US only cares for itself. The same goes for Iraq, Vietnam, Korea - the list goes on. The America you're thinking of is simply spin.
America doesn't deserve any help from the rest of the world, as it takes particular delight in shitting on the small guy when they're down, and only getting involved if it makes most sense to America to do so.
This problem is 100%-American made, and as such, should be blamed 100% on America. Slinging the mud at India doesn't help :)
And no, I don't hate America - I'm simply annoyed that America doesn't live up to its promises, and has allowed such an importantly influential nation turn into an insular, selfish, money-driven society.
No one said it was impossible, just that it might as well be impossible. It cost me over $30,000 to move from Los Angeles to Washington, DC -- and I was able to do it blindly without the visa hurdles, obviously. If you've tried to support two unemployed people during an apartment AND job search in a new city, you know what I'm talking about. The necessary burn rate for the first eight weeks is equal to the subsequent eight months. Unless you have already lost everything down to the shirt on your back and you're planning on walking, it's a logistical and financial nightmare.
You don't just wake up in the morning and think "gosh, I'll move to India." Moving overseas for employment is horrendously complicated if you are attempting to immigrate. When you are talking about people who have been struggling for 18-24 months already, it's a pipe dream for all but the most flush with cash. Regardless of the local laws, it would be suicide to come in without at least an entire year's budget in cash--and most countries require it, some of them require two years (see: New Zealand). For two people in most countries, that's roughly $120,000 in reserves. I'll just pull that out of my wallet. Obviously, India is cheaper, but what say we call it $10k per year per person. That's still $40,000 in burnable cash. That's undoubtedly far beyond what most of unemployed IT workers have sitting around--and if India doesn't work out, congratulations, now you're getting off a plane homeless and broke, but with all that bankable international experience. Whatever.
Besides, "you can just move to India" is so fscking abusive it makes me sick. It's basically saying "we think your life is worthless." Want to know why people accuse Indians of being arrogant about this issue? That's it. It ignores all of the cultural and social aspects to existing. "Just give up all of your family, friends, acadmic and professional relationships, oh and sell the pets too, to move to Bangalore." Unless your professional ambitions already include such ventures (in my case, they do and I have done it, so don't start with me), moving half way across the globe just for a paycheck is ludicrous.
Well, except you would have to expect it to be a one-way trip.
.. if you were to move out of the Bay Area to a new state you'd probably never generate the capital to get back because of the absurd cost of living.
With the wage disparity, it's not as if you could save up some money and come back and buy a house after a few years.
You might make money that in India is a decent living wage, but you'd essentially be an economic refugee in a certain sense. Show up in New York with a few thousand Rupees (or whatever) and see how far you get.
I've heard residents of San Francisco say the same thing
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I'd take what National Geographic says with a pinch of salt. They're a good mag, but the "poverty porn" sells copies, and I've noted that India is usually painted far worse than it usually is. In particular Nat. Geog. completely misses out on the incredible sense of optimism that you get on the Indian street these days -- very unlike the moaning I see frequently on /.'s posts.
:-p. In short, welcome to capitalist nirvana, a.k.a the Great Indian Dream (which Friedman also mentions in the linked article).
Hmmm...A few months back, National Geographic had a fairly detailed article on caste in India. I believe the article's conclusion disagreed with you.
Depends on what you're doing. Here's the scene in urban India (which is a buttload of people, check the CIA site; I won't write about rural India because I know nothing about it): Families of grooms/brides "arranging" marriages for their kids in India still look for someone of the same caste/religion/language. Again, in urban India, inter-caste/religion/language marriages are quite common these days. Apart from this one curiousity, caste is *not* in the picture in day-to-day urban lives.
In fact, things get better for the historical "lower" castes. People of the so-called "scheduled" (historically downtrodden) castes get affirmative action and get into colleges even with low scores. Percentages (as high as 66%) of government jobs are reserved for them, too. On the other hand, in the private sector, no one gives a shit about what caste you're from: your performance is what counts. Most Indian states have laws that make discriminating based on caste a rather severely punishable crime.
Bottom line: Most of urban India really doesn't care either way (except, oddly enough, during marriage season). Today, there is a new caste system based on (hold your breath) how well-educated you are, how much money you have, and how much money you can flaunt
Go somewhere random
You act like you have a "right" to be here. You do not. This countries lack of imigration control (meaning we allow anyone to enter) has led many peoples of the world to see us as a place they can just go. Just because we have the best of everything in the world doesn't mean that anyone in world has the right to come here. America build herself and we're proud to share with others. That will change with the terrible brutalization our country is suffering for this generosity. Our boarders will be controlled eventually and hopefully we'll stop being the worlds escapees destination of choice.
By the way, if you're not under a visa you ARE an illegal alien. That's why INS won't let you back in if you leave. It's because you shouldn't be here to begin with.
Oh, I apologize, though. Telling the truth is indeed racism.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
I can see the difference, though I see it differently than you do.
I have spent most of my life overseas. Expats live really good lives, for the most part. I spent 7 years in China. Overcrowded? Yes. Far less to offer? I don't think so. I've also been to India and have several American friends who work there. They like it. They get paid reasonable salaries but live considerably more comfortable lives than they could have here in the states.
That and Indian food is great. I particularly loved the Masala Dosa. And my vegetarian sister loved how "non-veg" food items on the menu are the exception, not the rule.
I particularly liked Punjab and Amristar. The people were very friendly. Something like the Turkic states or the Uigur people in China.
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
That's exactly how many american cities appear to canadians. They are dirty rundown slums with people living in crapshacks. In canada people don't live in crumbling, plastic wrapped houses, and our buildings and streets aren't covered with inches of grime.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
The IT boom is but a drop in the ocean that is the Indian economy, most of which is agriculture based. The REAL, or rather main reason that the Indian economy is booming is in agriculture, where harvests have been great for the past few years. Friedman is full of crap if he thinks a few well-off geeks will change life for the heaving masses that populate the sub-continent.
I'm an American-born ethnic Indian, and I've been there many times.
It *is* a big difficulty to live there if you weren't born there. Most American-born Indians don't like it.
So if all you white people are repulsed by the idea of moving there, thank God for his mercy.
I remember living in San Diego and seeing Orange County engineers diffuse in. These people started demanding the removal of evolution from the teaching curriculum, and in general started throwing their weight around.
The average Indian wants your money, not you. Please keep your white superiority and proselytizing here in the North American Wal-Marts, where it belongs.
We had enough of you people last century.
The developing countries who bought into all this neoliberal garbage are doing horrible. It's developing countries like China, which protect their markets vigorously, that are developing and maintaining their industries. Trade is not about maturity or fairness. It's about getting the best deal that you can. Period.
NAFTA and related agreements with the WTO are causing wages to stagnate. This results in a more uneven distribution of wealth, and a more uneven distribution of political power. People don't have to put up with that if they don't want to. There is absolutly nothing immoral about restricting the terms on which you are willing to trade with another country, or changing those terms in reaction to changing conditions.
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It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
You could have fooled me. Someone once said that insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If your current training and level of expertise makes you uncompetitive in the global market, then maybe you should find out why instead of whining.
If the jobs aren't in IT, then maybe you should find out where they are. (And no I'm not talking about flipping burgers or selling shoes.) Stop your whining.
A little over a year ago, I moved from L.A. to here in Manila after losing my job as a programmer. Since then, I never looked back and never had any regrets. India might have some opportunities, but the level of culture shock the average american would suffer would be far less here in Manila than India. I'll explain why. First, unlike India (and other countries), Manila doesn't have a cultural identity of its own. It's just a carbon copy of western culture (for example, there's still a burger king, mcdonalds, wendy's, and carl's jr on every corner), and for the most part, the level of adjustment that one has two face here is really two things: traffic, and the weather. As for the work environment, it's far more relaxed and laid back here rather than in the U.S. What makes this place (Manila) so attractive is that unlike India (where programmers seem to be a dime a dozen), the market of qualified programmers here is pretty slim--meaning that you won't have to compete with several hundred applicants for the same position. So before you move to the land of the sacred cow, give the Philippines a shot...
p.s. oh, and the real reason why i moved here is the pinay chicks here are hot...if I moved to india, I wouldn't be able to see more than ankle...:)