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Grand Challenge 1, Competitors 0

Ivan writes "According to the DARPA Grand Challenge Status Board, 2 bots were withdrawn before the race started and the remaining 13 were all disabled. Red Team and SciAutonics II tied at 7 miles, a bit short of the 142 miles required." CNN has coverage and interviews.

106 of 456 comments (clear)

  1. Congratualations to those that tried. by onyxruby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This was not a failure just because no one got further than seven miles. Contrary to a failure, this has been a grand success. DARPA spent around 13 million to host it, and got a lot of great minds in the public at large to start thinking of ways to solve very complex technological difficulties. In terms of sheer dollar value, the amount of technological research by private individuals easily surpassed the 13 million the government invested. Already companies are being created, and the wheels of commerce spun.

    This benefits the public from the technology that is being created that otherwise lacked an impetus. It benefits industry by showing a host of new ideas that otherwise would have never come through the regular channels. It certainly benefits DARPA for sheer investment and public relations value. It can benefit future soldiers by reducing their risk to dangerous jobs. This also benefits the defense contractors that just got a small reminder that someone from out of nowhere could become a player - think of it as lighting a fire in their belly.

    All told this was a challenge, and was never intended to be easily winnable. It certainly was advertised as being unlikely to be won this year. All told I think DARPA should hold more contests like this for other areas that have grown stagnant. For a historical perspective consider that Lindbergh crossed that Atlantic on just such a contest. A contest that inspired the X-Prize. Perhaps we should see DARPA become involved in future X-Prizes as well?

    Just remember not to name the project skynet.

    1. Re:Congratualations to those that tried. by maelstrom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Darpa has been a great success to the American Govt. One of those programs that for the most part continues to innovate.

      --
      The more you know, the less you understand.
    2. Re:Congratualations to those that tried. by KingJoshi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because we can learn from failure and make the most of it doesn't mean it's not failure. I'm not saying the challenge itself was a failure but we can't always lower standards after the fact to suit our egos. I'm sure many of the participants and DARPA officials were expecting (not just hoping) for much better.

      --
      In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
    3. Re:Congratualations to those that tried. by fermion · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I will go a bit further and say the thing to look at here is the process. What has been learned, what has been contributed to the nation, and how has it benefited the world. In this light the fact that there was no 'winner' or the race was not 'finished' may of little or no significance. This is why many research projects have a series of goals in which the 'answer' is only one of the many achievement that are pursued.

      If you tru to do something significant that no one has done before, that is a success in itself. We hear all the time about people doing trivial things, or something that has been done 100 times before, and fawn over those achievements simply because a finish line was crossed. We too often forget about the process that went to make those things happen, and that many things are much easier today than even a year ago because the process was refined by people who perhaps never bother worried about crossing a finish line.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    4. Re:Congratualations to those that tried. by gaijin99 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      True, but there will be pleanty of benefit in seeing what stopped each robot, what went wrong with its pathfinding algorithms, etc. I'll bet you that if they hold the event again next year they'd get to at least 14 miles, possibly even have one finish.

      While I agree that in general we shouldn't define "success" to mean "learning something", don't forget that this whole project was for research. The whole object of research is to learn things, so I can see the granparent's point.

      --
      "Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
    5. Re:Congratualations to those that tried. by tftp · · Score: 4, Interesting
      On a battlefield, sometimes even half a mile is suicidal. If you have your men cut off from supplies by such a stretch of, say, bombarded road, or snipers, what do you do?

      In World War II a soldier was sent to drive a truck, and if he fails... then another, and another. Today we can send such a robot. It is safe from snipers, and if it gets hit with a shell it will be simply replaced.

      Machines like these can -already- be used to patrol large territories; with improvement, they will be really good at that.

  2. Rough terrain's a bitch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    A guy on a mule has been evading the might and majesty of the United States Army in the Afghan mountains for over two years.

    1. Re:Rough terrain's a bitch by monster811 · · Score: 5, Funny

      And somehow he is dragging a dialysis machine with him...

    2. Re:Rough terrain's a bitch by Cruciform · · Score: 4, Funny

      Osama bin Laden captured by Aibo. News at 11. :)

    3. Re:Rough terrain's a bitch by primus_sucks · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Kind of make me wonder if a biped design might be the way to go.

    4. Re:Rough terrain's a bitch by Afrosheen · · Score: 2, Funny

      Captured by Aibo? I think those things have enough room inside for a brick of c4, a detonator, and a remote triggering device.

      Hey what's this cute little robot doggie KABOOM!

    5. Re:Rough terrain's a bitch by utahjazz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When these things are actually out in the field doing their jobs, they're going to be doing it on LEGS, not wheels

      Actually, I think they'll use WINGS.

      How's that for obvious?

      Yah, flying is harder than driving. But autonomous flying over rough terrain is WAY easier than autonomous driving over rough terrain. Even autonomous landing is probaly easier than autonomous "running up a hill and jumping over a fence".

      Most planes have been landed by computers for many years now. Sure it's on a smooth runaway. But throw in VTOL (vertical take off and landing -- which we've been doing for decades), and autonomous landing becomes way easier than driving.

      You heard it here first: In the future, robots will fly.

    6. Re:Rough terrain's a bitch by mako · · Score: 2, Flamebait
      Please explain how, with specific cited examples, Taliban-controlled Afghanistan committed terrorist acts against the United States. Thank you for your cooperation.

      Well, obviously they provided Osama with aid, comfort, and support and had no intention of stopping. They made their choice; backed the wrong horse. The Taliban were both stupid and evil.

      But Osama's a Saudi, and his hatred for America comes from America's behaviour in the middle east - their unwelcome military presence in the holy land of Saudi Arabia

      And we are there against the will of Saudi Arabia? Or perhaps Osama is just an evil, fundamentalist lunatic looking for an excuse to attack non-combatents.

      , their failure to force Israel to stop murdering Palestinians,

      So it is alright to use force in the Middle East? Which is it? You are speaking out of both sides of your ignorant face.

      their greed for oil,

      Yeah aren't we terrible. Enriching countries that would otherwise be eating dirt while paying monopolistic prices. The West are just a bunch of devils.

      their percieved negative attitude to Islam.

      Gee. It's shocking that such an attitude would exist. Islam has done so much good in the last 100 years.

      So basically you are completely incapable of providing evidence that the United States has done anything to provoke these, according to you, noble terrorists like Bin Laden. Thanks for playing.

  3. Is there still a chance.... by Dr+Reducto · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Has the "privateer" race been done? It would be nice to see a privateer complete the challenge.

    I think that even though they only got 7 miles into the course, thats still damn good engineering. Maybe next year they will have worked out what has gone wrong and figured out a way to flesh out an autonomous robot (Or hide a midget navigator somewhere!).

  4. How did... by Carl_Cne · · Score: 3, Funny
  5. Processing power by Ephboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The whole thing makes you conisder just how much processing power we use to control our speed around curves and avoid potholes when we're driving. We can integrate a hell of a lot of information, process the relavent signals and adjust our behavior in milliseconds. And that's not adding the additional struggle of trying to get your iPod to play through the stereo system....

  6. This is *great* news! by myowntrueself · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It means that autonomous fighting machines are still some way off.

    I suspect that the first industrialised nation that develops autonomous fighting machines will take over the world (or at least have a damn good go).

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    1. Re:This is *great* news! by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The 'battle bots' are not autonomous IIRC, they are remote controlled.

      Autonomous fighting machines would mean that even a nation of cheese-burger munching, channel surfing couch potatos with the reaction speed of a head of broccoli could have a go at taking over the world.

      You wouldn't even need to enlist l33t gamerz to pilot them by remote control and risk the communications being jammed or having remote control operators charged with war crimes when they get too entheusiastic.

      They are ideal; there would be no need to take and hold populated land.

      If one wants the oil or other minerals one would be able to unleash ones autonomous machines to exterminate the human population.

      And when the UN says 'but this is a war crime!' one merely passes the blame to the manufacturers and software house which designed the systems.

      They then point at the EULA which absolves them of all responsibility for anything that their creations do.

      Since no human actually committed any massacres, and no human officer gave any specific orders for the machines to slaughter men women and children, no human is responsible and one can simply rid oneself of a troublesome occupied population.

      Who wants future war like this?

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    2. Re:This is *great* news! by Jodka · · Score: 4, Insightful

      " I suspect that the first industrialised nation that develops autonomous fighting machines will take over the world"

      I predict the opposite. Any industrialised nation sufficinatly advanced to create an autonomous fighting machine would have little to gain from taking over the world. With adequate robot labor, you would have no need to exploit the world. At that point, added territory is no longer a source of useful resources but only an administrative burden. Primitive peoples are difficult to civilize and govern. Sure, we might use our robot warriors to down a particulalry bloodthirsty dictator from time to time and seed a self-governing democracy, just as we have used human soldiers to do with Milosovic in ex-Yugoslavia and Hussein in Iraq. But the goal in both places is to install a democracy and get the hell out ASAP. Fighting wars with robots will not change the underlying economic calculus of occupuation. It won't make ruling over the conquered any less of a pain in the ass, or any more profitable a proposition than today.

      The more technologically advanced we become, the more we substitute common substances for exoctic mineral resource imported from abroad. Why conquer Brazil for copper mines when you get zillion times the bandwidth of copper from silicon glass fiber which is make from sand ? Power lines ? Use a superconductor strands. Conquer Africa for daimonds ? Bah !We can grow them more pure, large and cheaper in a vacuum deposition chamber in a New Jersey shopping mall. Once we find an adequate subsitite for fossil fuels, or choose to rely more heavily on those which we already have such as fission, that will be one less thing which we need from the outside.

      The danger of autonomous fighting machines is not that the nations which develop them would use them to take over the world. The danger is that those weapons would fall into the hands of hostile and primitie societes which do have that goal, the same theat we face today. The technologically advanced nations which invented chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons could use them to to enslave the world, but we don't do that. The expense of occupation is too high and the payoffs for us are too low. The real danger of such technology is that is falls into the hands of primitive societies in which a primal warmongering mindset dominates.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    3. Re:This is *great* news! by Jodka · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Autonomous fighting machines offer a means to rid a location of its population without any problems with international law."

      Really ? There is no international law against using an army of robot warriors to exterminate the entire popuation of a foreign nation ? Why not ?

      Well there's my legal loophole. World domination, here I come.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  7. They tried and failed? by albeit+unknown · · Score: 4, Funny

    They tried and died.

  8. Re:Really pathetic showing? by Ephboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think you've considered the immense complexity of simply adjusting your speed/direction to avoid a rock or pothole. Turn too fast, you flip (as at least one vehicle did). Next time you get in your car pay attention to just how many tiny speed/direction adjustments you make even on straight paved roads. Now add stuff you have to avoid and the process is incredibly complicated!

  9. Re:Really pathetic showing? by Hello+this+is+Linus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the rovers got tangled with barbed wire, another had a malfunctioning satalite navagation system (GPS?), one broke its axle, and one rolled over... So its not as easy as it seems, the terrain must be pretty rough to have a car over turn or break its axle.

    --
    Hello, this is Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce Linux as Linux!
  10. Re:Really pathetic showing? by irokitt · · Score: 5, Informative

    There were engineered obstacles, such as barbed wire and the like. And the deserts out here are not like the Sahara. They have washes and rock formations and various natural obstacles. Finally, a lot of the problems were mechanical or technical-brakes locking up and such. So it isn't as simple as it sounds.

    --
    If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
  11. Re:Really pathetic showing? by Juggle · · Score: 5, Informative

    Hate to break it to you but the desert is far from a "completely barren plan, with very few obstacles".

    Even with a previously traveled path and prepared track it's not uncommon for VERY well financed race teams to fail to finish in a desert race. Most desert racers consider it a win just to make it to the finish line and that's with a driver!

    Look into the SCORE side of this challenge a bit more and you'll find a LOT of info about just how challenging desert racing is with drivers - let alone trying to do it autonomously.

    --
    --- Juggle juggle@hitesman.com
  12. Re:Really pathetic showing? by rgmoore · · Score: 2, Informative

    Your assumption that they're crossing a barren plain is incorrect. The Mojave desert is not an easy place to drive. Quite the contrary; it's an area that dedicated off-roaders love because of the challenge of driving there. DARPA chose a test that they expected none of the entrants to be able to beat; my impression is that even making it 7 miles is an enormous accomplishment.

    --

    There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

  13. What's with all the mechanical failures? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's up with all the mechanical failures? Yeah, it's rough terrain, but we've been building human-powered vehicles that can handle it for decades! I'd think that keeping your engine going or your brakes from locking up would be the least "grand" part of the challenge.

    1. Re:What's with all the mechanical failures? by Jott42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe because most of the competitors were attracted to the computational problems and not the mechanical, and thus underestimated the latter? And even if you now that the machanical side is what will take you to the finish line, it is still not easy. Just look at the Paris-Dakhar race: a lot of mechanical breakdowns with human drivers each year.

    2. Re:What's with all the mechanical failures? by feelyoda · · Score: 2, Informative

      it was called an engine failure when the Red Team hit an obstacle. the cause of a mechanical failure isn't always benign.

      --

      Robo-Blogs of the world: UNITE!
    3. Re:What's with all the mechanical failures? by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The exact course was not revealed until today. The competitors did not have enough time to design solutions for any barrier they had not of thought of. If somebody didn't antisipate that they'd have to deal with a certain kind of block, that block would have a high chance of doing them in.

      Knowing that the cause of failure was engine stopping or brakes failing tells us very little. Some external to the car force caused the engine to break... it'd be more interesting to know what induced the engine to fail.

  14. Re:Really pathetic showing? by Doomdark · · Score: 4, Insightful
    142 miles across a completely barren plain, with very few obstacles

    You might to read the facts about challenge; SciAm for example had nice article.

    But basically, it's not "just 142 miles in the middle of nowhere", but 142 miles with rather tight time limit (ie. they have to race almost as fast as human drivers would drive normally); exact route they HAD to follow (with some max. deviation allowed) was only disclosed few hours before start, and definitely wasn't just a straight line, and terrain was not just barren, it's pretty rough (meaning that staying on the road or path or whaver is a must) no matter how you look at it.

    --
    I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
  15. Re:Really pathetic showing? by sirsnork · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they were disabled due to "silly rule violating" then they deserve to be disabled. How would you feel if you were on one of the teams that got 7 miles and then had someone pass you and get 8 miles but broke 3 rules on the way.

    They all knew the rules going in, and if they didn't comply then they deserve to be shutdown (this is ignoring DARPA's rule change to include teams that didn't finsih the qualifying course).

    --

    Normal people worry me!
  16. Still, might have been better to start small by btempleton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes, this was a grand challenge. But it would be nice if teams could solve part of the problem at first, get some recognition and minor prize money for that, and then move on.

    So perhaps step one should have been just doing a long ordinary road course, minimal obstical avoidance, just handling roads, turns, potholes, ramps and even traffic lights (where you are told they are).

    That contest would provide useful civilian tech and also useful military tech in terms of a autonomous vehicles to carry cargo in a controlled area with intact roads.

    Or you could also imagine autonomous vehicles which handle roads, but then get to a rough patch they can't handle. At the rough patches you station soldiers who drive/remote control the vehicles over the rough patch, but you need far fewer because they stay in one place and only do the rough patch. Let humans do what they can do and computers do the boring long-haul road drive.

    Next, hold a contest for a shorter rough course with obstacles.

    Finally, combine the two.

    --
    Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
    1. Re:Still, might have been better to start small by Mr_KnowItAll · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Having just now returned from the starting line, I spent the drive home thinking about how the next GC should be changed to make it more valuable (relative to the stated objectives). Rather than shortening the course or creating more obstacles, DARPA really must refrain from giving the human team the route before the robot is released. Today's teams had two hours to review and perform detailed planning on the race route to "pre-program" their vehicle rather than force it to rely on on-board intelligence. This is entirely useless for a working robot. It also provides an unfair advantage to a team that has manpower and resources to scour the possible courses in advance. The next DGC could be made much shorter and more difficult by making it a true test of intelligent, autonomous navigation over a route that is given only to the robot.

    2. Re:Still, might have been better to start small by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll say this again. 1 m granularity isn't sufficient to make driving decisions with. Think of it this way. Could you drive in a city you've never been to w/o directions? No, well neither could a robot. Also, if you had a GPC accurate map would you drive w/o looking at the road? No, well neither could a robot. Oversimplifying problems you don't understand is a slashdot tradition I guess. Please tell me your not a London web site designer speaking about the state of AI research (like in the last ./ GC discussion)

      Given that none of the teams finished, and in the proposed usage would allow such planning, I don't think this is a concern. Unless you don't like CMU for some reason, then you will complain until everyone stops listening to you.

  17. Not _all_ that impressive by Imperator · · Score: 5, Funny

    To be fair, they were looking for him in the region of Afghanistan known as Iraq.

    --

    Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
  18. Re:Testing !?!?!?! by irokitt · · Score: 2, Informative

    The course was laid out to the competitors jsut before the race began. There was no time for anyone to make a dry run. Although I don't think there was anything to stop them from picking any spot in the Mojave and playing around with the machines.

    --
    If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
  19. So considering no vehicle made it past 7 miles... by ikewillis · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...how insane does this make the team that entered a motorcycle?

  20. The value of stupid solutions by pdxdada · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What really surprised me about this competition is that no one went for the stupid solution. I read about a robot competition in the late 90's that involved obstical avoidance. One of the top finishers had no computer controller it only changed course when it ran into something and placed high just because it didn't break down.

    --
    Don't mess with the bunny, outsideworld.org
    1. Re:The value of stupid solutions by Bombcar · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think that was the idea behind TerraMax - it was a 7 ton Army truck, but even that doesn't work so well when it falls into the Grand Canyon or something similar.

      I would have used a 500 foot wide wheel. :D

  21. Re:Really pathetic showing? by realdpk · · Score: 2, Informative

    I meant, had to have the ability to be disabled by DARPA. Doh.

  22. Re:So considering no vehicle made it past 7 miles. by mynameis+(mother+... · · Score: 2, Funny
    ...how insane does this make the team that entered a motorcycle?

    You mean Berkeley?

    :)
  23. in WWI by deathcloset · · Score: 5, Informative

    The first tanks could only go a thousand yards before breaking down, and they had a 7 man crew.

    it didn't take long for things to change.

  24. Re:Really pathetic showing? by realdpk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wouldn't care if they got further breaking the rules, as long as they didn't win the prize if they finished the race. I look at it more of a showcase of technology than a showcase of rule-following.

    I'm sure it'd be much easier to take a successful rule-breaking vehicle and tweak it to follow the rules than take a vehicle that couldn't get past 7 miles and make it a winner...

  25. Lessons? by Quixote · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I submitted the following as a story for some discussion, but it got rejected; so I'll just post this for discussion.

    Just like 1000s of geeks worldwide, I watched this with great interest. But the whole organization thing left me with a funny taste in the mouth.

    It seemed as if the group that could throw the most money at the "problem" would win. Take the CMU team for example: they paid for a high-res survey of the area; had undergrads map out each and every obstacle in all of the possible paths; etc. Now, if the goal of this "grand challenge" was to unleash the entrepreneurial spirit, then it failed. Money != Entrepreneurial spirit.

    Taking lessons from the RoboCup people, I would have preferred that DARPA organize it as follows:

    1. Create a simulator for the sensors, and design a small (virtual) course for this simulator. Let people develop algorithms using this simulator, and have a competition in this virtual simulator to select a set of (say) 30 teams.
    2. Provide each of these teams a platform: a humvee equipped with the sensors (actual ones from (1) above). Of course, if a team wants, it can add its own sensors.
    3. After some time, hold a "grand challenge".
    4. Analyse the approaches taken by the various teams, and (important) share the code among the teams. If a team designs a new sensor that is useful, get copies made and share with the teams for the next iteration.
    5. Go back to step (1) above, and repeat.
    Preference could be given to schools or efforts involving students, as not only is this a great learning experience, but also it will be a great motivator.

    Just look at the technology gap between CMU and the rest of the entrants. It is quite an achievement that someone was able to equal CMU in performance.

    There are a lot of smart hackers out there who would love to take a crack at this problem, but the lack of hardware is a serious hurdle.

    1. Re:Lessons? by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Bull. Simulators allow you to cheaply rule out possibilities. Nothing that doesn't pass a simulation will work in the real world. And a simulation doesn't have to be a digital simulation. A 1/32 scale model running through a sandbox is a simulation. As is a wind tunnel.

      It is true that passing a simulated test is no measure of success in the real world. But it will certainly be more prepared, and in a faster time and with less expense than an "all up" design method.

      Look at the space shuttle if you want an example of "all up" gone bad. I'm not talking about the end product, I'm talking about billions that were squandered during development. The waste of time and money during the engine testing was extraordinary.

      Another example is the Mark XIV torpedo. Google around, but the long and the short of it is the navy deployed a torpedo without testing it. A series of design flaws kept them from working, and their failure cost us dearly during the early parts of the war.

      The Navy refused to believe there was a problem. The weapon worked 50 percent of the time for the 2 shots that were fired before the war. When they tested the torpedos properly they found numerous problems with the design of the guidance system and the detonators.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:Lessons? by Quixote · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The simulator needn't simulate the sensor very accurately; but it would present "ideal world" conditions that can be used to filter out the weak contestants. If you can't design algorithms that'll work in a simulator, what makes you think you'll be able to make them work in the real world?

      Using a black-box approach, you could simulate the output of a "perfect" laser rangefinder, LIDAR, etc. In fact, black-box approaches are great for isolating bugs and system testing.

      The point I'm trying to make is: if you limit the participants only to the well-heeled, you are not going to fully "unleash the entrepreneurial spirit", as was the stated goal of the competition.

    3. Re:Lessons? by m_niessner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Providing everybody with a humvee is the wrong way to attack the problem. You are making the assumption that the humvee is the best platform to complete the challenge. I think the SciAutonics II team just proved that the humvee platform is not necessarily the best. They came up with a different platform that made also made it 7 miles.Perhaps the best platform has yet to be thought up. By specifying too much up front you could actually eliminate the best possible solution.

    4. Re:Lessons? by Quixote · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I think it would be safe to say that the mechanical (platform) aspects of this competition are insignificant compared to the sensing and control aspects. With a human driver, most of the entrants would have completed the course with ease.

      In my suggestion, by providing interested entrants with a common platform, you take away these secondary issues, and get to focus on the primary issue: how to use the sensory data to control the vehicle so that it can get from Pt A to Pt B.

    5. Re:Lessons? by Jodka · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your suggestions show that you do not understand the purpose of the contest. That purpose is to compare different designs and methods of problem solving. To the degree that DARPA constrains those designs and methods with regulations, as you are proposing, it suppresses diversity and experimentation, destroying the value of the contest itself. To be specific:

      1. You don't encourage people to think outside of the box by sponsoring free boxes. The same goes for providing humvees. If you limit everyone to start with the same platform then you won't get people experimenting with different platforms, which is desirable. We saw extreme variety in this matchup, from a motorcycle to that massive truck from OSU. This diversity is good because you learn from it which designs work and which do not.

      2. The participants are not just developing robots, they are also developing methods for developing robots. If DARPA constrains participants to all use the same development track, then they are undermining a significant experimental aspect of the contest.

      3. That different teams have different budgets is a good thing, not a bad thing. Part of what you want to learn from this is how much performance do you get per dollar. The only way to learn that in the real world is to let different teams spend different amounts and correlate performance with cost. The military has a huge problem with this tradeoff already, and I expect that's one of the questions that they want this contest to help answer. There is increased skepticism about the conventional military practice of purchasing the near-perfect weapon at near-infinite cost. NASA adopted the "faster, cheaper, smaller" agenda to get away from that kind of spending. But where is the sweet spot ? There is a legitimate question here about what is the optimal number of eggs to put in one basket. That's something you learn by letting different groups spend different amounts to solve the same problem.

      I mean look, if it turns out or not that the only way to solve the navigation problem is indeed to have students map obstacles in advance, then DARPA has learned something by allowing that expensive strategy into the contest. CMU has more money so they can try that approach. Someone whith less money might experiment with something more innovative. These robots are both spending experiments and technology experiments. DARPA does not want every contestant to use CMU's expensive strategy, because that gives no comparison case. Uniformity bad. Diversity good.

      4. The entire reason to encourage development in this area is that the military does not know how to develop these robots. If it did, it would not need to hold the contest. So why dictate to contestents a procedure for developing robots ? Different groups will use different methods. Some will fail and some will succeed. You learn from that what are the better methods.

      5. The great thing about the absense of such regulations such as you propose is that people like yourself who are convinced that they have the best rules for how to develop a robot can try their ideas, or promote those ideas to actual contestants. You don't need DARPA rules to dictate your own strategy to yourself. If you think that your scheme for how to develop a robot would win the challenge, then why aren't you using it yourself, or trying to convince a particular team to take advantage of it to win the prize ? That instead you want DARPA to force your favorite development methodology on all contestants suggests that you have low faith in your own ideas. If your ideas are so good, why do the rule makers need to force them on people ? We should all be suspiciuous of arguments such as yours, those of the form "My plan is better for everyone, therefore you should all be forced to follow it". When someone says that, what they usually mean is that their plan is so bad that the only way anyone would follow it is if they were forced to.

      6. Not just you, but a lot of other people are convince

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  26. The words ring true by GillBates0 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    From my earlier accepted story:

    DARPA Grand Challenge Kicks Off March 13th
    Monday March 08, @10:40PM

    GillBates0 writes "A quick reminder that the DARPA Grand Challenge is due to kick off March 13, the coming Saturday." He points to this "quick recap of the teams participating in the event," as well as details about the available satellite feeds. "The Atlanta-Journal Constitution is running a story about the event today. Quoting Frank Dellaert, co-director of Georgia Tech's robotics lab from the article, 'I would have trouble driving some of these roads myself. I think it's beyond the capabilities of autonomous vehicles today.' (shameless school plug). We'll see if the participants can prove him wrong."

    Those words ring so true now...I never expected the contest to end on such a negative note.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
  27. More Coverage by dbCooper0 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Washington Post has a good set of pix and video (Flash involved). FWIW, I was figuring that the Red Team's Humvee might make it. What did they do, forget to check the oil? Or perhaps the software went bonkers and left the engine at or over redline with no load?

    --
    db
    Cig:
    ôô
    /`
    1. Re:More Coverage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have worked on a university project that is developing an autonomous robotic vehicle. The project is the Autonomous Robotic Vehicle Project (ARVP). Our team consists of a number of undergraduate and graduate engineering and computer science students. We participate annually in the IGVC (Intelligent Ground Vehicle Competition). The IGVC is a relatively simple challenge: navigate an obstacles course delineated by a pair of white lines marking the boundaries of the "road" and avoid obstacles such as traffic barrels. Max. speed is 5mph. Sounds simple right? Even a two-year-old could do it crawling.

      Wrong. The IGVC has run for over 10 years, and in the last three years not a single team has completed the autonomous challenge. Teams from all over the world from prestigious universities compete, but autonomous navigation is not easy.

      The first challenge is hardware: high-quality sensory equipment is expensive. Witness the thousands of dollars costs to purchase laser rangefinders, let alone radar or LIDAR. As well, computing power plays a large role, particularly at the speeds the Grand Challenge vehicles running.

      The second challenge is software: It is not easy to write consistent vision algorithms. For example, simply the shadows cast off of trees on a sunny day can easily throw off line-recognition algorithms. I cannot imagine the difficulties that teams in the Grand Challenge experienced trying to recognize potholes and ditches.

      The third challenge is reliability: All systems must work nearly perfectly together under a variety of conditions. The conditions at the Grand Challenge are far from ideal, and are in fact extremely difficult. The vehicles had to negotiate with dust, ditches and holes, overpasses, sand hazards, water hazards, fences and other obstacles.

      All of these factors, which are quite easily dealt with in the amazing system known as the human mind, are very difficult for an autonomous vehicle. To be honest, I feel that seven miles is an extraordinary accomplishment under the race conditions. Few individuals honestly expected that the race would be completed.

  28. try this at home by Kappelmeister · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was thinking about that a few months ago when I was working on a film shoot. I had to run some supplies between a remote location and the base camp. The terrain was really rough-- this was a forest, and it had a lot of trees, roots, rocks, crevices and the like. And I absolutely, positively had to be at the base camp ASAP.

    I found myself running as fast as I could, but my mind set up an interesting pipeline. I was always looking five to eight feet in front of me and my brain feverishly tried to parse out what was a rock, what was a branch, what was a big root, what was sloped ground, what was even ground, etc. Then, that information got passed to a route-choosing part of my brain that decided where the best place was to put each foot: left, right, left, right. That information, in turn, went to my brain's motor department, which was actually in charge of balance, weight distribution, and muscle movement to actually put the feet where they were supposed to be and keep my momentum without falling.

    I call this a pipeline because my eyes never left that five-to-eight foot range. When I was selecting any bit of route, I was already looking at the next bit of route and stepping on the last bit of route. I never looked at my feet, but somehow always put them where they needed to be.

    I wouldn't make such an analogy anywhere other than slashdot, but I could feel that the load average on my brain was as high as it could be. I didn't have any free cycles to think about my day, or have a song in my head, or think of my next joke, as I usually do. Every ounce of my concentration was going to these automatic, practically sub-conscious processes. I know was processing as fast as I could -- any faster, and my brain would tell me, "I can't parse the terrain that fast," or "I can't decide on a route that quick."

    Don't give me any credit for it, because it has nothing to do with knowledge or intelligence, but I was solving an extraordinarly tough problem very quickly. In short, if I could bring my brain to the edge, I can see how tough this is for the DARPA contestants!

    1. Re:try this at home by m0rm3gil · · Score: 3, Informative

      "I wouldn't make such an analogy anywhere other than slashdot, but I could feel that the load average on my brain was as high as it could be." Such an analogy is actually perfectly appropriate. Cognitive load is a term used by human factors psychologists to describe what you're talking about. As a driving researcher I have a suspicion it's going to be a while before a machine can match a human in handling the cognitive load for a task like driving - particularly in a wartime situation.

    2. Re:try this at home by Graff · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I found myself running as fast as I could, but my mind set up an interesting pipeline. I was always looking five to eight feet in front of me and my brain feverishly tried to parse out what was a rock, what was a branch, what was a big root, what was sloped ground, what was even ground, etc.

      This is why new drivers and people who are disorientated or distracted often have trouble driving.

      For new drivers there are 2 factors working here. First is the lack of experience of WHERE to look. New drivers often keep their vision trained too close in front of the vehicle. This works for very very low speeds but once you try to go road speeds you just don't have enough time to react. Experience teaches us to lift our eyes higher and seek ahead further in order to drive effectively.

      The second factor for new drivers is how to handle this new kind of input. Stuff that you don't worry about when jogging or running becomes a big problem when driving, like corners and wet roads. The increased distance also means that you have to have a different sort of thought process in order to handle the increased amount of information.

      With disorientated or distracted drivers they may have the knowledge of how to handle the processing of driving stimuli but since they are at diminished capacity they are not able to do so fast enough. Drunk drivers, for example, often start slewing back and forth because their reactions are lagging behind what their senses are telling them. They turn, overturn, correct, overcorrect, and so on.
    3. Re:try this at home by feelyoda · · Score: 2, Informative

      You shouldn't discount the value of peripheral vision.

      Currently I'm working on a vision system that hopes to tackle the localization & mapping problem in real time, which is basically the system you are describing before the legs/balance portion.

      Using a fish-eye lens (like our own), there is a problem of non-constant resolution. The pixels in the edge represent a larger world area than the center. Precise localization of features there is hard, but optical flow helps.

      Basically, you see the ground moving under your feet and react to it, though you might not be aware of it.

      Regardless of what you thought you were doing, don't make computer vision researchers' problems for granted: unlike our cognitive capabilities that rely of reason and judgment, vision is a black box. We have very little understanding for what humans do to solve this problem.

      I personally think that recognition and vision will need to be used to solve the Grand Challenge. This is how humans do it after all.

      --

      Robo-Blogs of the world: UNITE!
    4. Re:try this at home by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I know exactly what you mean.

      The interesting thing is to try and break it down to subroutines for AI programming.

      First, there is the HUGE problem that everything we do, motor-skill-wise is completely unconsious. So all these weight shiftings and speed shifts and balance issues, they are all unknown territory for us. We are put in the position of having to guess what our own minds are thinking.

      Then there is the whole "threat/obstacle" recognition bit. Human beings start developing that stuff long before we can walk, so by the time we could be running over uneven terrain we've got tens of thousands of hours of experience in this sort of thing, and every bit of that has honed our ability to recognise obstacles, and develop action plans.

      All these advantages we have, and still, running over uneven terrain gives us that exilirating/terrifying brain-about-to-explode feeling.

      Can you imagine what it would be like for a computer that has no experience with walking or with threat recognition to invent and reinvent them over and over again. And don't talk to me about learning systems; they don't learn very fast at all.

      At this stage, it would probably be a better idea to build a machine that knows its own limits.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  29. easy answer to this. by rebelcool · · Score: 2, Insightful
    what kept them from practicing in every concveivable situation?

    This is impossible to do. There are too many variables in the real world.

    The bane of autonomous robotics is the fact you can't create an accurate world model. Sure, you can model the things you think will have the most effect, but there are literally millions of little things which by themselves may not mean much, but over time or in differing combinations can cause havoc and system disruption.

    As an example, say for driving over barbed wire. Suppose you hit it at just such an angle the wire gets wrapped around the axle? You can't predict such things.

    The post-mortems will be interesting to read. I hope they post them online.

    --

    -

    1. Re:easy answer to this. by Monkey-Man2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the teams that were in this challenge will have a considerably easier time next go (2006?). Partly, because of the extra time to develop. But also because they know exactly what the challenge requires (I assume they get to keep the waypoint coordinates). This means they can either practice on the actual course they used this year, or create there own that is comparable. This would account for this real-world model that you're talking about. Hopefully, next time they'll have much more success. I'm impressed that any of them made if farther than a mile!

      --
      This post was generated by a Cadre of Uber Monkeys for Monkey-Man2000 (603495).
  30. If OSes were robots by 0x0d0a · · Score: 3, Funny

    With robots sponsored by Microsoft, IBM, Apple, etc. going head to head, man, that would be awsome to watch!

    Microsoft's robot would break down frequently and require human maintenance.

    IBM's would work well, but would have an obscurely-shaped fuel system that requires expensive IBM Fuel Cells(tm). The racing team would all be wearing suits.

    Apple would produce a shiny, glossy, and reasonably reliable robot that scratched incredibly easily and had bits of the body break off when traveling along. The sound system would be an iPod.

    1. Re:If OSes were robots by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Linux system would have four wheels driving diffrent directions and millions of tiny parts doing identical jobs.

    2. Re:If OSes were robots by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Funny

      AWD and redundant systems? Wow! :-)

  31. I'm surprised no one finished but... by Garak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm really surprised no one finished the race but from experience I know how tough robotics can be.

    A few years ago I was a member of a Highschool robotics team were we build a hockey playing robot one year and a tank the next. They were RC which made is doable but it still was quite challanging.

    Robots don't have self preservation instinct and usually end up destroying it self. This seems to be the case in this competition.

    When driving a car your not only trying to navigate and not hit people, other cars,etc... Your also trying to not beatup your car. This is a very hard thing to program into a robot. Driving up a rocky hill isn't a simple as taking path with the least rocks in the way, usually its better to find another way around. But in programming how the hell do you tell that its unpassable. A brick wall is easy but a washed out road is hard to determin with cameras and other sensors.

    As a human one would get out of their car and walk through before driving. In a race situation you would already know the course and whats passable.

    Another challange is sand, its very easy to get stuck and its also hard to tell how deep or lose it is.

    In miltary applications you would have detailed aerial photos or beable to take your time so this isn't a realistic test.

    --
    God, root, what is the difference?
  32. Re:Really pathetic showing? by seafortn · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sure,

    Having actually driven and ridden extensively in that exact area for two joyous weeks of my life, I can tell you the terrain is abolutely miserable - even with two humans in a very capable HMMWV, with a map, GPS, night vision, etc, it's a bitch to get around in that area, especially off the beaten path. 7 miles is a pretty darn good showing, in my opinion.

  33. kalman filtration by rebelcool · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is an algorithm out there called the Kalman filter which does this. It's very complicated and rooted in probability theory, but it basically takes several sensor inputs, smooths out their response based on previous values (and known noise characteristics, such as the typical standard deviation from the truth) and makes a good assumption about where the sensors will be in the near-future.

    It is very accurate, if you tune it properly (thats the tricky part)

    This is very important for real time things because you need to begin to smoothly react to situations before they happen (ie, driving into an obstacle at high speeds).

    --

    -

    1. Re:kalman filtration by groomed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What the Kalman filter does is predict the future state of a model based on previous estimates and measurements. It takes into account the expected measurement error and the expected modeling error, and dynamically adjusts it's "confidence" in both model and measurements based on the estimation errors. The Kalman filter is an optimal filter, in that it can be shown to minimize the estimation error.

      The beautiful thing about Kalman is that it works with partial data, that is, it can be applied recursively, "as the data are coming in". This is what makes it so suitable for realtime applications, as well as the fact that it is very robust in the face of temporary sensor failure.

      Kalman is frequently used in tracking and control applications. Interestingly, Kalman filtering was also recently applied to the problem of task scheduling in the Linux kernel in the Entitlement Based Scheduler. There's lots of info about Kalman filtering on the web, use Google if you want to know more.

  34. Yeh right by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Osama on a mule and foot is still eluding the US, the Iraqi guerrelas are either on foot or on mule, they continue to pester the US, whereas the Iraqi army, with trucks and tanks and other machines, was pulverized quickly.

    Furthermore, empires today are built on economics, not military. It's bogus to even think of conquering western Europe, Japan, many of the small Asian countries, the US, Russia ... think of the Korean peninsula. If the north were to try to conquer the south, they would destroy its usefulness. Heh heh, if you want to think about something bizarre, think of the south surrendering as is to the north ... they would assimilate the north so fast, Dear Leader's head would spin as fast as his father in his grave.

    Military might is only useful against dirt poor countries, and even then only in a limited sense.

  35. Re:need better collision avoidance by cybermace5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whoa, look at this: with three minutes of typing and thinking, this Slashdotter just solved the problem that experienced engineers and computer scientists worked on nonstop for a year, at the cost of millions of dollars!

    --
    ...
  36. TROLL EXPOSED: COPIED FROM ALASKAN ENTRY by cybermace5 · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://dgc.gi.alaska.edu/Overview_2_1_04.htm Section 2.4.1

    Don't mod this cut-n-paste troll up anymore.

    --
    ...
    1. Re:TROLL EXPOSED: COPIED FROM ALASKAN ENTRY by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not only that, this guy has posted quite a few posts today -- all plagiarized. (Google turned up a match for every single one I looked at.) Since I happened to have mod points, and I usually don't use them, I went and moderated a bunch of his posts as troll. Anybody else want to get in on the action?

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  37. Details, anyone? by andfarm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Looks like most of the vehicles "crashed" (one way or another) pretty early on. Aside from a few scattered details (one apparently got tangled in barbed wire, a few flipped, some didn't start), anyone have a full list of What Happened to each of them?

    --

    TANSTAAFI: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free iPod.

    1. Re:Details, anyone? by Animats · · Score: 2, Informative
      Details are still scant. I've read two completely different explainations of what went wrong with CMU's vehicle. The Associated Press reports that went off course, hit a rock, and broke an axle. Other reports claim a "blown engine".

      Team DAD's vehicle was held in DARPA-controlled pause for two hours, a mile behind CMU's failed vehicle. After the long pause, it was disabled. What's the story there?

  38. You cant win a war only with technology.... by imsabbel · · Score: 2, Informative

    At least against an opponent that can defend himself.

    Cruise missiles cost millions per shot. Smart bombs 100,000s. Drones millions.

    And a though with a 250$ ak74, and 50$ worth of c4 can do as much damage. Without radar warning.

    Trying a full scale high-tech war would ruin any country.

    --
    HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  39. Can't say I'm impressed by jd · · Score: 2, Informative
    Professor Heinz Wolff could probably do better, using a small piece of elastic for motive power.


    (In fact, the Great Egg Race was probably as tough on school kids as this race was on the engineers who competed... with the difference that the kids usually succeeded.)


    The micromouse championship was also notoriously tough... and yet many succeeded there, with finishing times of under a minute to navigate a maze of unknown complexity.


    These kinds of contests are generally tough because they stretch the minds. Minds don't stretch easily, without practice.


    I would have thought that a good mech eng geek could have reached double or triple-digit distances without killing themselves. The problem is the culture.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  40. Re:Really pathetic showing? by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You have never been to the Mojave Desert. It's not 200 miles of beach. There are cliffs, dunes, meth labs in trailers, unexploded ordinance from military training exercises, and so on.

    What did you think dune buggie were designed to handle?

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  41. Re:I'd like to see ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yes, and the Microsoft machine would be several times the size of any other entry in the race, and be heavily armored in attorneys. Microsoft will claim that it is run by Windows, and would have a fancy Windows XP front-end for reporters to take pictures of that would repeatedly blue-screen during the race. That won't stop it, however, because it will really be controlled by a Linux or FreeBSD system hidden inside. This robotic juggernaut would attempt to send an email virus to random addresses via a satellite link, try to steal the batteries from the other robots along the way, and end up winning by just crushing them under its' treads just before the finish line.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  42. Re:Brick on the Accelerator by ljavelin · · Score: 5, Funny

    One might think a brick jammed on the accelerator of a jeep or H2 might have a chance to make it 7 miles.

    Not without refueling, of course.

  43. An unexpected comment by johnjay · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is *great* news!
    It means that autonomous fighting machines are still some way off.


    This is a really weird sentiment to see on a technology website. I grant you that an autonomous fighting machine would be a bad thing to release on the world, but they'd still be a ways off even if some contestants passed the DARPA challenge. So many advances are necessary for an "autonomous fighting machine", that I think we can comfortably benefit from the development of robotic ATVs without worrying that they will someday rule the world.

    Are you happy every time a chip design fails, because that postpones the inevitable rise of the "automous fighting machine"? Are you excited when you hear that Honda has to delay the release of ASIMO-2 because they can't get the hip-joints to work properly? Yet another set-back for the conquering strategy of the "autonomous fighting machine"!

    It's also weird that someone else here thinks you're luddite comments are insightful.

  44. did they ever test? by krokodil · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Have teams done some real life testing before going to competition? Or they just did theoretical tests simulating on computer?

  45. midget drivers, eh? by squidgyhead · · Score: 5, Funny
    You know, that gives me an idea. Would it count if you were to train some animal to drive this thing? Would "monkey-controlled" be close enough to "autonomous"? I bet you could get a monkey behind the wheel of a 4x4, train him, hook him up to enough drugs and electrodes to get him to drive the thing.

    After all, you've got to remember that the world's fastest computers, the really, really big iron out there, still have about as much computational power as your average cockroach.

    Not that I would condone such a thing, but, hey, if you're designing delivery systems for the US military, I think you've already lost the moral high ground.

    1. Re:midget drivers, eh? by djupedal · · Score: 3, Funny

      Monkey?

      I know plenty of valley girls that can pilot a BMW at 85mph down the coast hiway while never looking out the windows or using the rear view mirrors. They steer with one knee and can't hear a sound over the 1000watt stereo. They can carry on three converstations at once, make reservations for lunch on the cell, adjust their bra and sip on a 40oz. diet Dr. Pepper...all while penciling an eyebrow thinner than a dime.

      Over...under...around and thru.

    2. Re:midget drivers, eh? by McAddress · · Score: 2, Funny
      I know plenty of valley girl

      liar, this is slashdot, you cant know any girls.

  46. The trouble spot by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Both CMU and Caltech seem to have failed on Power Line Road near Camp Rock Road, That's a rather boring piece of terrain, and seemingly easier than the first two miles. Again, what went wrong?

    1. Re:The trouble spot by throwaway18 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The preliminary results have been posted on the day 6 media gallery. Since it is a word document I'l post it in full.

      Preliminary Data from DARPA Grand Challenge
      As of 11:00 a.m. PST, March 13, 2004

      Vehicle 22 - Red Team - At mile 7.4. Vehicle went off course, got caught on an obstacle and rubber on the front wheels caught fire, which was quickly extinguished. Vehicle has been disabled.

      Vehicle 21- SciAutonicsII - At mile 6.7. Vehicle went into an embankment and became stuck. Vehicle has been disabled, and the team is recovering it.

      Vehicle 5 - Team Caltech - At mile 1.3. Vehicle went through a fence, and couldn't come back through. Vehicle has been disabled, and the team is recovering it.

      Vehicle 7 - Digital Auto Drive - At mile 6.0. Vehicle was paused to allow a wrecker to get through, and, upon restarting, sensors were not able to determine the proper route. After sensors tried unsuccessfully for three hours, vehicle was disabled.

      Vehicle 25 - Virginia Tech - Vehicle brakes locked up in the start area. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

      Vehicle 23 - Axion Racing - Vehicle circled the wrong way in the start area. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

      Vehicle 2 - Team CajunBot - Vehicle brushed a wall on its way out of the chute. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

      Vehicle 13 - Team ENSCO - Vehicle flipped in the start area, experienced a fuel leak, and the team needed to shut off the fuel. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

      Vehicle 4 - Team CIMAR - At mile 0.45. Vehicle ran into some wire and got totally wrapped up in it. Vehicle has been disabled.

      Vehicle 10 - Palos Verdes High School Road Warriors - Vehicle has been removed from the course - it hit a wall in the start area.

      Vehicle 17 - SciAutonics I - At mile 0.75. Vehicle went off the route. After sensors tried unsuccessfully for 90 minutes to reacquire the route, without any movement, vehicle was disabled.

      Vehicle 20 - Team TerraMax - Got to mile 1.2. Vehicle then started backing up and after .5 miles, the vehicle was disabled.

      Vehicle 15 - Team TerraHawk - Withdrew prior to start.

      Vehicle 9 - The Golem Group - At mile 5.2. Vehicle stopped. Vehicle had a throttle problem while going up a hill. After trying for 50 minutes, the vehicle was disabled.

      Vehicle 16 - The Blue Team - Withdrew prior to start.

    2. Re:The trouble spot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Given the fate most of the vehicles experienced, vehicles 20 and 25, who locked up their brakes and started backing up respectively seem to have already developed a sense of self-preservation.

  47. what can we learn? by snarkh · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Absolutely right.

    In fact, it is not even clear what we can learn from failure like that, which we could not learn otherwise.

    Flashy things like this race do not necessarily tell us anything more about deep problems of AI. One can spend millions and millions and not get any closer to the goal.

    1. Re:what can we learn? by John+Harrison · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Lets think about what you've said. Obviously some of these teams are using state of the air equipment and technology. Any time you push the limits of what you can do you come away with data. I don't see how giving groups an incentive to do something outside of the lab is a waste of money. I also don't see how a "flashy race" as you call it is a bad thing. It is great to attack these problems from multiple angles and a flashy race is just one way of doing it.

  48. Pulling a team together by Valkyre · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm looking for sponsorship, fabricators, and programmers in the MN/WI area to compete in the next competition. Interested parties please contact darpachallenge(at)phayze.com Serious offers only. Must be able to put in 20+ hours/week minimum and work with a team.

    --
    What the heck is a 'sig'?
  49. Re:Really pathetic showing? by irontiki · · Score: 3, Insightful

    After a few years competing in robot wars and battlebots I know how tough it is to think of something, pull it together in your spare time, and get it to the competition in one piece. And that's just souped up remote contol cars with saw blades. These are auto-fucking-nomous trucks.

    This is damn good and all the competitors should be proud.

  50. Why not jump instead of roll? by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Given that the terrain may be filled with obstacles and uneven in contour, why didn't someone come up with a machine that simply jumped 30-40 yards at a time -- using a combustion ram to provide the motive force.

    This would have potentially overcome many of the problems and if it were designed to be self-righting, even landing on an award contour and rolling over shouldn't be too much of a problem.

    Another alternative is something that had short-term "hover" capabilities -- ie: checked the path ahead was clear for the next x-yards and then, drove that distance. If it saw something that appeared to be an obstacle it could hover over it for whatever distance was required.

    Come to think of it -- why were DARPA so all-keen on using wheeled vehicles? What would be wrong with a hovercraft -- even one without a skirt so that the barbed-wire wasn't so much of an issue?

    Wheels are okay, but they're certainly not the best option for uneven and unpredictable terrain -- after all, nature is an *expert* designer but you don't see any animals with wheels do you :-)

    1. Re:Why not jump instead of roll? by Xepherys2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, jumping isn't a great things, as it would make the vehicle that much more obvious/visible. DARPA isn't trying to have something invented that looks cool or "just works", it has to serve a purpose.

      Hover vehicles have limitations of their own, that have actually been discussed on /. boards in the past.

      As for nature... you don't see any animals that "hover" either... perhaps save the flying fish. You have some that fly, and a few that float down from somewhere higher up, but not more than 1 or 2 that have any type of actual "hover" capabilities.

      Wheeled craft are easier to maintain than jumping or hovering equipment. That means that the military that would inevitably use this technology would not need special training on the mechanics... just possibly on the electronics used. Quite possibly not even on that.

      Personally, I don't get why they didn't use low, bumper-mounted radar to detect things like giant obtrusions so that axles didn't get broke and the like. *appauled* I really don't get it!

    2. Re:Why not jump instead of roll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Read the DARPA rules. Wheels must be the primary motion mechanism for this contest.

  51. A: VERY INSANE Re:So considering no vehicle made by feelyoda · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...how insane does this make the team that entered a motorcycle?

    I suppose you weren't watching the live satellite feed when the motorcycle was demonstrated via remote control. It couldn't enter the race, but they just wanted to show it off.

    It fell to the ground in literally 1 second.

    Why they tried to solve a stabilization problem instead of an autonomy problem is beyond me. As I've said before, they engineered their own failing. This is different than the Red Team, where the basic hard problem of obstacle detection killed them.

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  52. First person by Kallahar · · Score: 5, Informative

    I was lucky enough to have a press pass. We had to get to Barstow at 5:00am (driving up from LA) which was rough. Driving in the dark along the highway leading to the start, we topped a rise and in the valley below portable lights had been strung up creating an oasis of light. As we got closer we could see the satelite uplink trucks, grandstands, police, and military.

    After registering and getting our fancy orange safety vests, we went to the starting line and were able to get some great pictures as the bots prepared to start the race. Red Team (from Carnegie Mellon) had the best qualifying time so they were first out of the gates. Their 3 million dollar hummer started off fast and was quickly out of sight. The four helicopters filming from the air were flying dangerously close to each other trying to get a good shot so it was easy to track where the vehicle was.

    SciAutonics II was the next bot out of the gate, the also had a good start and proceeded out of view. About this time we heard the good news, Team Red was seven miles down the course. Soon after we got the bad news, Red Team's vehicle had died. The odds on favorite was eliminated by a mechanical failure after only 7 miles.

    Several of the rest of the bots failed to get past the first turn, and the rest either withdrew or failed within a few miles. The six wheeled ENSCO lost control, ran up the embankment, and overturned. Of the 100+ teams who built bots, 25 were invited to qualify, 15 of those were allowed to race, and only 7 of those made it more than a mile.

    All in all it was an excellent experience. My suggestions for next year (or for the openchallenge, etc) would be to do the race in segments like the WRC does. Divide the 200 mile race into 10 mile segments, teams get points based on their performance for the stage. If you fail a stage you're not eliminated, you just fall in the rankings. Teams are allowed an hour of maintenance between stages to fix any problems they think they can fix. This would make it both a lot more interesting, and a lot more satisfying.

  53. Re:Sharing by Quixote · · Score: 2, Interesting
    No, you share after the competition.

    An analogy would be genetic algorithms. Once you evaluate the fitness, you perform crossover. By making the code public, teams are free to pick up the best ideas from the others, and build on each others' work.

    Take a look at how RoboCup soccer works. They have made great strides in the last couple of years, and a lot of that is due to the spirit of cooperation in the setup.

  54. I wouldnt say that. by rebelcool · · Score: 2, Interesting

    in some autonomous robotics stuff i've worked on, after task competitions teams would get together and discuss varying approaches to problems.

    While no code sharing occured (nor would've been useful, as each platform has its own unique way of doing basic tasks), discussing approaches leads often to combined approaches, fresh perspectives on ideas and then THAT leads to innovation as each time takes what they've learned and applies it to the next project. Eventually the most efficient and "best" system results.

    By your logic, nobody should go to a university to learn things and should learn everything on their own to foster 'innovation', while in fact everyone would be reinventing the wheel a billion times over.

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  55. In the real world by nacturation · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of those rules will eventually be "don't run over friendly troops". I don't think it's such a bad thing to force vehicles to stay within the rules. Otherwise we'll see over-optimization in areas which won't make sense down the road, pardon the pun.

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  56. You need to push hard at first. by rebelcool · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The difficult problems need to be presented outright at first, so you don't invest too much time in something that can solve simple issues, but fails utterly at more complex ones.

    The ultimate goal of autonomous robotics is to develop a system that interacts with the real world at least as well as human, if not better.

    If you start off with a simple challenge, you will get simple answers. For the next challenge, you ramp up the challenge some, and most will just modify the simple system. At some point though, you can't modify what is fundamentally flawed, and you have to throw it all away and start over.

    Thats a huge waste of time and resources. If the teams recognizes the *tough* challenges from the outset, they're more likely to come up with a system that is flexible enough to handle them when the time and ability comes. Granted, you may spend more time developing that framework before you solve simple issues, but its worth it in the end.

    Now the teams know what real-world issues they face. Their future systems will be much better equipped to handle them as they come along.

    I suspect DARPA was well aware that this challenge could not be met. But the teams and technology are better off for it.

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  57. Here's what is on the course. by forii · · Score: 4, Informative
    142 miles across a completely barren plain, with very few obstacles.


    Here's a very good .pdf slideshow that shows what type of terrain is on the course. I've driven off-road through the California desert many times, and it's pretty rugged stuff, lots of ravines, gullies, brush, and sand. Although one time I managed 40mph in an '83 Honda Accord. Not to mention that I had been up all night, was half-stoned, and had a car full of people tripping on LSD. Ah, those good old college days.

  58. Re:I guess my prediction is going to come true... by aonifer · · Score: 2, Funny

    And you got to run before you blast across the Alkali Flats in a jet-powered, monkey-navigated...

  59. New world record? by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seeing this was the first-of-its kind event, is the last bot out now a world recordholder for the distance it traveled? Maybe the 150ish miles goal was a bit too much to ask of the new technology, a bot that can travel 7 miles reliably has some use, just not as much as DARPA was hoping for.

    Also, was there a particular barrier at the 7 mile point that did in the last two robots, or was it just coinsidence that they both stumbled within a mile of each other?

  60. New Info on the web page! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    From http://www.grandchallenge.org/gallery/Day6.html

    Preliminary Data from DARPA Grand Challenge
    As of 11:00 a.m. PST, March 13, 2004

    Vehicle 22 - Red Team - At mile 7.4. Vehicle went off course, got caught on an obstacle and rubber on the front wheels caught fire, which was quickly extinguished. Vehicle has been disabled.

    Vehicle 21- SciAutonicsII - At mile 6.7. Vehicle went into an embankment and became stuck. Vehicle has been disabled, and the team is recovering it.

    Vehicle 5 - Team Caltech - At mile 1.3. Vehicle went through a fence, and couldn't come back through. Vehicle has been disabled, and the team is recovering it.

    Vehicle 7 - Digital Auto Drive - At mile 6.0. Vehicle was paused to allow a wrecker to get through, and, upon restarting, sensors were not able to determine the proper route. After sensors tried unsuccessfully for three hours, vehicle was disabled.

    Vehicle 25 - Virginia Tech - Vehicle brakes locked up in the start area. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

    Vehicle 23 - Axion Racing - Vehicle circled the wrong way in the start area. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

    Vehicle 2 - Team CajunBot - Vehicle brushed a wall on its way out of the chute. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

    Vehicle 13 - Team ENSCO - Vehicle flipped in the start area, experienced a fuel leak, and the team needed to shut off the fuel. Vehicle has been removed from the course.

    Vehicle 4 - Team CIMAR - At mile 0.45. Vehicle ran into some wire and got totally wrapped up in it. Vehicle has been disabled.

    Vehicle 10 - Palos Verdes High School Road Warriors - Vehicle has been removed from the course - it hit a wall in the start area.

    Vehicle 17 - SciAutonics I - At mile 0.75. Vehicle went off the route. After sensors tried unsuccessfully for 90 minutes to reacquire the route, without any movement, vehicle was disabled.

    Vehicle 20 - Team TerraMax - Got to mile 1.2. Vehicle then started backing up and after .5 miles, the vehicle was disabled.

    Vehicle 15 - Team TerraHawk - Withdrew prior to start.

    Vehicle 9 - The Golem Group - At mile 5.2. Vehicle stopped. Vehicle had a throttle problem while going up a hill. After trying for 50 minutes, the vehicle was disabled.

    Vehicle 16 - The Blue Team - Withdrew prior to start.

  61. On Winning by macmurph · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You have to engineer the process of winning, not just the technology to win.

    I worked on a solar powered race car that was to cross the country. Our superior car won the first few days, but eventually crashed.

    I learned a lot more about team work and egos than I did about technology. The technology was there, the money was there, the open-minded cooperation was not there. The car was engineered very well, the win was not engineered at all.

    1. Re:On Winning by mabu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You've hit upon a very big issue.

      People don't work well together the way they used to. The open source movement is not an exception. These people all work virtually and at their own schedule and desire. It's very difficult to find committed people who can see the "big picture" without having to finance their loyalty.

      A good analogy can be found in the music industry. What makes a great band often has more to do with X number of guys being open-minded and ambitious AND able to work well together. They may make a lot of mistakes and suck early on, but if they hang in there, they will prevail (look at Bon Jovi - talent is obviously not a prerequisite - tolerance is).

  62. Notes from a spectator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is pretty late--I just got back from the race--and probably no one will notice but I feel like adding it anyway...what I found most striking was that of the four entrants that made any substantial progress, two (CMU, SciAutonics) were big teams, well-organized, lots of resources, etc, and two (DAD, Golem) were, if not exactly homebrew, definitely down toward the lets-just-get-this-shit-together end of the scale. Go hobbyists! DAD was particularly interesting because one, their pit consisted of a robot sitting there waiting to go out, rather than the trailers, RVs, computers, antennas, jump-suited techs, and so on that filled most of the other ones; and two, the end of their race only came after they were stopped, deliberately, by race officials, in order to let a tow truck get up to one of the disabled vehicles up ahead. They weren't able to get it started again in the field. Now of course that's something your autonomous vehicle ought to be able to handle, but still you have to wonder, if they'd had a free course...? The Golem guys get mad props for their enthusiasm, which dwarfed anyone else I saw out there...their vehicle had been totally flailing in the quals, and one guy I talked to said they were hacking away til ten minutes before they got the route (around 4 am). They were totally thrilled when it got through the first gate and across the road, and it was quite infectious, especially since no one had even gotten that far since DAD in the fourth position (Golem was fourteenth, second to last).

    I was disappointed not to see TerraHawk (the other Terra) run...it was intriguing but I didn't find out much about it cause I was hanging around while they were really busy trying to fix something (which I guess didn't happen--they scratched themselves before start). Ghostrider was unfortunate too, I was really interested to see it run and the crowd was too. And it ran...a foot. And fell over. Technical letdown, but points for drama. Rumor I heard was, though, that it failed for some really silly reason--wire not plugged in, switch not switched on, something like that. I don't know if they tried another run (a number of vehicles did second, non-competing starts later in the day), but if it was something like that I hope they took another shot.

    Really cool overall, though of course it would have been nice to see a bit more performance on the field. Even if everyone failed, strictly speaking, there was a lot of impressive stuff in everything from mechanics to AI. I have no doubt everybody learned a lot and that they'll all kick ass next time around.