HP Starts Pushing Desktop Linux

Opensource Income? by Takara · 2004-03-14 17:07 · Score: 5, Interesting

The article briefly mentions the fact that Mandrake is going to emerge from bankruptcy and pay off a 3.3 million euro debt. It's made me curious how much Mandrake made from the HP move.
Did HP just take mandrake with a few modifications and put it on, or was a licence purchased?

Re:Opensource Income? by WaterTroll · 2004-03-14 17:29 · Score: 5, Informative

I read the press releases a while ago last year. I recall it being a "worldwide agreement". I dunno much else. the press release from HP is here. i searched for mandrake's too.
Re:Opensource Income? by SphericalCrusher · 2004-03-14 18:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm willing to bet that MandrakeSoft will profit from this a great deal. After all, it is their software that runs the system, right? Without software, the hardware is useless. I'm also pretty sure that HP wouldn't want to pull an IBM right yet.

Nonetheless, Linux is rising. Windows is falling. Anything and everything that helps the open-source community is great in my book. I've never really disliked HP, but I've never really liked them as much as I do now either. =)

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"Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
Re:Opensource Income? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 20:51 · Score: 2, Informative

I don't mean to be a troll, but I wonder how Mandrake's ongoing trademark case will affect their revenue and business plan.
Re:Opensource Income? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 22:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

"wouldn't want to pull an IBM right yet"

What does that mean?

Year of Linux by Sla$hd0tSux0r · 2004-03-14 17:08 · Score: 5, Funny

I really think this is going to be the Year of Linux!

Re:Year of Linux by Bobdoer · 2004-03-14 17:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Oddly enough, I think this is going to be the year of people stating: "I think this is going to be the Year of Linux"

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EVERYDAY IS CATURDAY
Re:Year of Linux by AKnightCowboy · 2004-03-14 17:22 · Score: 4, Funny

Oddly enough, I think this is going to be the year of people stating: "I think this is going to be the Year of Linux"
That was 1998.
...and 1999, and 2000, and 2001, and 2002, and 2003... yep, we're comin' out, guns blazing. Pretty soon we may even overtake #2 Apple's 5% desktop marketshare spot. Any day now... I have a feeling 2004 is it... 6% desktop dominance.
Re:Year of Linux by LBArrettAnderson · 2004-03-14 17:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

Things are beginning to move, just like a freight train, slow to start, but impossible to stop.

except that the other freight train is 100x as big, already moving, and in the opposite direction on the same track.
Re:Year of Linux by saden1 · 2004-03-14 18:00 · Score: 4, Informative

I just install Lindows on a family member's computer because they were sick of all the pop ups and spyware. Lindows is the real deal as far as ease of use. The whole click and run thing worked out nicely. Indeed, Linux as prgressed very fast.

Knoppix is nice too but it had minor problems.

p.s. I know about synaptic and such and I think click and run is easier your average joe.

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One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.

Yeah but how much? by Pros_n_Cons · 2004-03-14 17:08 · Score: 4, Interesting

I question how much they've been selling cause Mandrake Soft surely wouldn't have had a close shave with bankruptcy if HP was throwing even a bit of its weight behind it.

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-- "of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller

Re:Yeah but how much? by sumdumass · 2004-03-14 17:23 · Score: 5, Informative

They have been selling mandrake workstations for a while (about a year os so).

Their financial troubles began when they changed a marketing model that didn't product what it expected to do. It was like playing poker and they didn't know when to drop back to the nickle slot machines.

Mandrake has always been a financialy sound company, it was just a couple of bad decision by new blood that caused them to dip.

HP and Apple and Starbucks by fuzzdawg · 2004-03-14 17:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

Strange alliances indeed. This is prolly gonna scare the craap outta Microsoft.

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Sig* sig = theOneSig();

What's Microsoft gonna do? by Patik · 2004-03-14 17:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

Doesn't MS cut their deal with PC manufacturers (i.e., Dell) when they sell Windows-less machines?

Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by craXORjack · 2004-03-14 17:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

The same PCs can be had with Windows XP, by the way.

Thats what I was thinking about too. In the past MS has had exclusionary contracts with the hardware vendors that only Microsoft's Windows would be pre-loaded on a line of computers. So if HP sold Linux or Solaris x86 or whatever on a line of computers then they had to pay full retail for any copies of Ms Windows they sold with that line. (IIRC about $200 for full license of W9x as opposed to ~50 OEM pricing.) Are those kind of exclusionary contracts prohibited now by the anti-trust settlement?

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Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by LnxAddct · 2004-03-14 17:21 · Score: 3, Informative

No, Microsoft's policy is that their PC Manufacturers cant sell a computer without an OS. Implying that the only OS that people would want is MS's, if they did what you said, well then they'd have been in court years ago...or wait..they were..but not for this exactly:) Thats why Dell ships some computers with FreeDOS, so they dont break their agreement with Microsoft.
Regards,
Steve
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by Xenographic · 2004-03-14 17:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, if I remember correctly, it was that they charge them for a copy of Windows whether they install it or not (and is thus part of the "Microsoft tax" in that it's hard to get around paying for a copy of Windows even if you do not want one at all). So the agreement, insofar as I've heard about them, is that the OEMs buy a copy of Windows for every PC they sell, period, according to their OEM agreement.

The justification for that deal, if I remember right, was that they would under-report the number of PCs they installed Windows on and cheat Microsoft out of their due.
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by Soko · 2004-03-14 17:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

IIRC, they can't do that or they'll be in direct violation of the deal with the DOJ that Judge Kolter-Kelly approved of.

Microsoft has gotten away with some underhanded skuldudgery it seems (*spares the /. readers a link to a page about SCO*), but punishing HP would be out-and-out defiance. That would bring on a legal smackdown, I think.

Bill and Steve better but some more asprin - I think they'll need it in the not too distant future.

Soko

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"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by ergo98 · 2004-03-14 17:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yes, because if Microsoft cut off HP, customers would just suck it up and start using Mandrake the next time they wanted a new PC, right?

More realistically HP PC sales would fall through the floor as people would just deal with other vendors and save themselves the trouble. To most consumers an HP box is a box just like any -- generally an interchangable commodity part. Claiming that HP holds the power position in such a scenario seems dubious.

Of course this is a silly academic exercise anyways. Microsoft was barred, via the whole antitrust thing, from performing such retaliatory practices. Microsoft doesn't have the option to, as you claim, "cut off their own balls".
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by kfg · 2004-03-14 17:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Uh huh. That's why most owners of Hitachi FLORA Prius machines never even knew that OS was on their computers, and no bootloader was preinstalled. Hitachi just wanted to do that way. Right.

The DoJ was aware of this and decided, in their infinte wisdom, not to include it in their antitrust action.

Booting BeOS on Hitachi

KFG
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by Vancorps · 2004-03-14 17:49 · Score: 3, Interesting

Microsoft does that the option to terminate their contract with HP because it is a contract so unless the DOJ is in the business of avoiding contracts I'm fairly certain both parties are still following the lettering. The difference here is the fact the HP/Compaq is a very large OEM, possibly the biggest since the merger. HP/Compaq computers are sold EVERYWHERE. Gateway and Dell's you can't just buy at Best Buy, Fry's, Staples, hell, even Costco.
I think the current head of HP was smart enough to not accept the terms that they can only run one OS primarily because a big portion of HP sales involves HP-UX still... Pretty sure they had enough muscle to remove that clause. It's a position where they both need eachother.
That said, would HP sales fall through the floor without selling Windows? You might just be surprised since most people don't buy a computer because it has Windows but because it is "Internet Ready" or plays DVDs, or any number of things that even a default install of Mandrake is capable of doing.
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by salimma · 2004-03-14 19:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

or plays DVDs, or any number of things that even a default install of Mandrake is capable of doing.

Err yes, but due to the DMCA will Mandrake-running HPs be able to play encrypted DVDs out-of-the-box?

--
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by Vancorps · 2004-03-14 20:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

I didn't say that there wouldn't be problems, but most users wouldn't know about this until after their purchase.
Most people buy computers so they can check their email and browse the web, both things easily done with Mandrake or more Linux distros.
Not saying it would be a good business move for them by any means. Definitely best to take the hybrid approach
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by Shirotae · 2004-03-14 21:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

Microsoft does that the option to terminate their contract with HP because it is a contract so unless the DOJ is in the business of avoiding contracts I'm fairly certain both parties are still following the lettering. ...

That may be the case in the USA, but in the EU it is prohibited for a company with a dominant position to grant discounts or rebates that are based on a commitment to not purchase from a competitor. If a French company is being harmed by unfair competition practices of a US company that operates in the EU, you can be sure that the French will use their political influence to ensure that that US company faces stiff penalties. If Microsoft tries to hurt HP for doing business with Mandrake, they may run into a lot of expensive problems in the EU. The EU is a big market and Microsoft cannot afford for it to become an even more fertile ground for the growth of a real alternative to their offerings than it is already.
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by Shirotae · 2004-03-14 22:24 · Score: 2, Informative

As for the granting discounts or other commitments, what is your source? This is common practice all over the world in all kinds of markets so I'd be curious to know exactly at the EU differs.

According to a handy guide to EU competition law that I have been given, the key issue is that Article 82 of the EC Treaty prohibits the abuse of a "dominant position". Having a "dominant position" is not illegal in itself, but it means that a company cannot do various things that would be allowed for companies that do not have a "dominant position". An insignificant company is permitted to offer a discount to customers who do not do business with their competitors, a company with a "dominant position" is not. I think the idea is that a customer can tell an insignificant supplier to install their discount in a suppository configuration, and just go to the competing supplier instead. It is not so easy for a customer to do that to a supplier who has a "dominant position", so it is the courts who can tell the supplier where to put their discount.

The other issue is whether or not the courts (and the politicians) are prepared to enforce the competition law in their jurisdiction. It is always more politcally acceptable to crack down on foreign companies.
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by elgaard · 2004-03-14 23:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

Start supporting those who do sell laptops without OS'es.
I compiled a list of danish vendors that sell computers without an OS. I put in an entry for laptops because they are a little harder to get without an OS and you generally cannot build them from components.
The list is at http://www.agol.dk/nogenpc/
It is in danish, but you get the point Baerbare=Laptops, Ja=yes.
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by steve_l · 2004-03-14 23:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

Remember that an HP PC executive was the first person quoted in the MS antitrust findings, "if we had a choice, you'd be second".

There is no love lost between parts of the company, especially the original HP. Compaq, on the other hand, have thrived for years by sucking up to the man, and been very good at it. Yet if you look at the workstation and server lines, they have been certified for linux distros for a while (usually redhat 'premium' stuff), and been orderable with the OS. No retributions yet :)

The biggest risk with MS is that they will cut the company out of some big special, like a new product, like getting so many people on longhorn beta test, etc. They would probably do that today except that MS know they dont have a choice. The HP/Compaq PC line is a big enough chunk of sales that they dont dare walk away.

At the same time, I can imagine a lot of high level voicemails going back and forth :)
Re:What's Microsoft gonna do? by spitzak · 2004-03-15 06:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

There seems to be confusion about Microsoft's monopolistic practices.

What Microsoft definately did, and continue to do, is disallow dual-boot machines. This was done to kill off OS2 and BeOS, though it also continues today to prevent anybody from practically trying Linux or any other alternative. Microsoft does not allow a manufacturer to sell a Windows machine that even has the disk partitioned so that you could install Linux without screwing up the Windows installation.

I'm pretty certain Microsoft's actions worked very well for them. If this had not been done, back in 1990 or so all the manufacturers would probably have come up with dual-boot machines, where the other system was BeOS or some other (perhaps manufacturer-proprietary) system, advertised as the "gaming" system. And all the 3D graphics and games would have been made for the gaming system. Big manufacturers would have locked in their own games so they could support their own proprietary systems, and I would expect there would be no Playstation, instead that market would be covered by inexpensive dual-boot machines.

Users would be quite used to and accepting that they have to reboot their machines to switch from work to playing games. But then, to Microsoft's horror, there would be "productivity" applications that would start to appear for the game, advertised clearly as "uses the better graphics, and no reboot necessary!". They predicted this and they did what they could to squash it.

I don't think Microsoft has ever been too concerned about blank machines. Only geeks buy those. Any large corporation that did so and tried to install Windows would either be paying more than if they bought the pre-installed ones, or would be breaking the law.

Off topic yeah... by Amiga+Lover · 2004-03-14 17:12 · Score: 5, Interesting

...but every deployment of linux in a large scale like this makes me smile and go "up yours SCO. one more victim to sue to drain your warchest"

So I'm petty. sue me. There's lots like me

HP is on a roll by Str1derv7 · 2004-03-14 17:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

Wow, HP is really doing everything right so far. Signing deals with Apple, Starbucks, and now Mandrake. My respect for the company has shot up within the last few months.

Re:HP is on a roll by jcgf · 2004-03-14 17:29 · Score: 5, Funny

Yeah, well respecting them isn't your God-given right anymore.
Re:HP is on a roll by HughDario · 2004-03-15 06:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

I have always been a devoted HP fan, and when they bought Compaq, I was even happier as that was my second favourite company. Now with signing with Apple, Starbucks and Linux? I just don't know how much better they can get from there...

(congrats on the successful post iswm)

Why no high end workstations? by pdxdada · 2004-03-14 17:13 · Score: 5, Interesting

What really surprises me is that companies seem to always introduce Linux to their low end computers (Walmart anyone?). A lot of high end Unix workstations are still being sold out there, why aren't more companies pushing a high end Linux workstation?

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Don't mess with the bunny, outsideworld.org

Re:Why no high end workstations? by irokitt · 2004-03-14 17:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because the uber-cool super-fast computers get bought by gamers who want to play games and think that Linux is that funny thing that doesn't run any of their favorite games. These guys haven't heard of WineX or the like. HP, Dell, and all the others cater to the mainstream like good little corporations because it makes more money. We can't really expect them to do otherwise in this market.
There is nothing wrong, of course, with building your own computer and putting a distro on it. And if you do it like I did you save ~$1,000 US in the process. ~$1,100 if you don't have any reason to buy Windows.

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If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Re:Why no high end workstations? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 17:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

Because the uber-cool super-fast computers get bought by gamers who want to play games and think that Linux is that funny thing that doesn't run any of their favorite games. These guys haven't heard of WineX or the like.

Are you high? Why would I go out and buy a $3K PC to run games, and then turn around and run those games under WineX? That'd be like buying a Mac just so I could run all my Windows apps in Virtual PC... You buy the right tool, and install the right OS, for the tasks you want to accomplish. Unless you're a zealot or something.
Re:Why no high end workstations? by nelsonal · 2004-03-14 19:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

Is this not high end enough for you? Kidding aside, the biggest reason more workstations are sold with Linux is that there aren't enough professional applications (design stuff like ProE, The pSPICE family (at least Cadence and Synopsys, etc) haven't all been ported to linux yet. Most made it to Windows a few years back. Keep in mind that it took some time for the software to make it over to the Windows world, and that was for a 50%-75% cost savings. Moving from Windows to Linux doesn't bring the same one time cost savings, and workstation buyers aren't afraid to spend a signficant amount of cash if it means that their employees will be more productive by not retraining on new application software if a different version exists.

--
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.

i bought one of these last year by bhny · 2004-03-14 17:13 · Score: 5, Informative

mandrake wasn't installed. they just included a mandrake disk.
there was some minimal linux install just so you could boot it.

I''m glad by Bishop,+Martin · 2004-03-14 17:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

While Mandrake may not be the best distro, it is probably the best for new users, and at least a better alternative than that FreeDOS Dell offers

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Setec Astronomy

Re:I''m glad by ReinoutS · 2004-03-14 22:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

While Mandrake may not be the best distro,...
Are you trying to start a distro war here? I happen to believe Mandrake is the best distro.

Re:Interesting. by Nasarius · 2004-03-14 17:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

You haven't used Mandrake, have you?

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LOAD "SIG",8,1

derrr what's linux? by challahc · 2004-03-14 17:19 · Score: 5, Funny

Time for Microsoft to crank that brain-wash ray up to full power.

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01100010 01101001 01110100 01100101 00100000 01101101 01100101

Re:Interesting. by irokitt · 2004-03-14 17:19 · Score: 2, Funny

Does he like jiggering with his registry or looking for a 12-year old every time his Windows PC gets farked up?

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If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.

The good with the bad by KingJoshi · 2004-03-14 17:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

I've found Mandrake to have the best visual user configuration programs out there. I do think it's the most user friendly. However, I also think it's less stable than some of the other distrobutions because of staying on the edge of new software releases. Obviously we don't want a Debian stable for the desktop user, but I think Mandrake is less stable than Windows XP.

The new users won't necessarily care how far the strides GNU/Linux has made, but realize that it's still not as easy to use as Windows and (IMO) not as stable as XP either!

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In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey

Re:The good with the bad by lone_marauder · 2004-03-14 18:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think Mandrake is less stable than Windows XP.

I run XP and Mandrake 10 (beta) on my laptop at work. My experience with using both OS's on a daily basis makes me wonder what facts you base that statement on.

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who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.

Re:Interesting. by IAmTheDave · 2004-03-14 17:21 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's a shame that we keep going back to this. I think there is something here that we can all agree on. Linux - in order to reach true desktop user status - needs to be able to divorce itself in some virtual fashion from the command line. That is - what happens behind the scenes must stay there, and have a pretty GUI on top of every piece of Linux. Heck, my sister was even intimidated by the boot output on my Gentoo distro, simply because it was just lines and lines of text. (Yes, I am aware I can install a boot screen.)

Simply said, I cannot wait until linux has the ability to be a command-line only OS and at the same time, a GUI only OS. Mandrake comes damn close. So do some others. It's right around the corner now...

--
Excuse my speling.
Making The Bar Project

good thing.......i guess by TheAxeMaster · 2004-03-14 17:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

As much as I hate HP desktop machines ....... and believe me I HATE HP DESKTOPS........ this sounds like a really good thing. Maybe they decided that windows had a little too much overhead to run on their crapboxes so they switched to something that ran more efficiently. People will not have a problem with mandrake if they sit down and use it a little.

I have always found it funny when people, especially older people like my parents, shy away from non-windows systems because they think it is too hard to use, and then I have to show them how to use IE in windows and how to dial up (yeah, modem) to the internet.

Re:Interesting. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 17:24 · Score: 4, Interesting

Will Joe Six Pack looking for a cheap computer

Actually, a friend of mine installed mandrake 9.2 on his computer. He was asking me something over AIM, and I told him to open a terminal, and... He paused and said, "Uh, how do I get to a terminal?"

So see it is possible for an under average computer user to enjoy Linux on the desktop without needing a command line.

Re:Don't trust HP. by haruchai · 2004-03-14 17:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

Could you please recommend a trustworthy computer company?
The way I see it, we're forced to play a "least of many evils" game on the way to world domination.

--
Pain is merely failure leaving the body

SMB Market? by V50 · 2004-03-14 17:26 · Score: 3, Funny

Could somebody explain what an SMB market is? The first thing that popped into my mind was Super Mario Brothers market, but that can't be right. :)

Re:SMB Market? by manganese4 · 2004-03-14 17:27 · Score: 5, Informative

Small-Medium Business as opposed to home and enterprise markets

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I make my face look like this and concerned words come out.

Re:Interesting. by Grym · 2004-03-14 17:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

Exactly.

The trouble is that the people who buy HPs (low-end, cheap machines--the desktops, at least.) are not the people who read /. or care to understand why their MS Works (*shudder*) won't install on their new machine.

I'm afraid that, in an attempt to lower their bottomeline they're forgetting their current market, but who knows? Maybe, with this, they'll get a new market. At the very least, it should be really interesting to see how other companies respond and how succeessful HP is in this venture.

-Grym

Re:Don't trust HP. by manganese4 · 2004-03-14 17:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

And how does this differ from any other publicly traded company that has been around for more than 5 years. Adapt or die.

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I make my face look like this and concerned words come out.

Linux at the moment. by Neo-Rio-101 · 2004-03-14 17:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

At the moment, Linux is viewed as good enough for the desktop of people who only use their computers as a glorified communications device. We're talking Internet, Mail, and Office utilities. These users want to do these three things without viruses, spyware, hardware upgrades, and crufty Operating Systems that crash. As for users who want to use a PC for gaming, music, and multimedia... Linux is probably not the best choice. However, when it comes to getting work done without all the nonsense, Linux is where it's at.

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READY.
PRINT ""+-0

Win/Win by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · 2004-03-14 17:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

A distro that constantly gives back to the commmunity, provides free isos for download, concentrates on the desktop, and manages to make a profit? Who'd have thought?
With this corporate support, you can go out and buy a -supported- HP/Mandrake desktop. Which means you have Linux supported hardware if you don't like Mandrake.
All sorts of good things in the future...

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This guy is way out there

Re:Interesting. by sumdumass · 2004-03-14 17:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

they aren't really selling this to joe sixpack. they are targeting the average "all i wan't to do is surf the internet and check email or maybe play the card games" crowd. unless your a gamer or need some high end graphics editor, you pretty much fall into this crowd. Even the office worker that needs to write a document or a spread sheet can efficiently use mandrake will little more distress then changing from windows 98 to windows xp.

now in a controled enviroment were the hardware is fixed and your not running every server availible, there is little need to hit the command line any more in mandrake. they have almost eliminitated the need for it in most every day taskor task the "joe sixpoack" would be trying to do.

Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by dark404 · 2004-03-14 17:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

*Insert Plethora of Pro-Linux, Anti-MS Comments Here*

Mod me down and bury your head in the sand if you can't take the truth, but...

Every time some manufacturer has linux somewhere and it makes the Slashdot news there are always the same comments, but the main hold back for wide adoption of Linux isn't getting manufacturers to sell PCs with it or public recognition. The main hold up is the mantra of any highschool composition class, "Who is your audience?" Who is the audience? Geeks? No, Geeks can and do already use linux. The audience that needs to be targeted is the average user, and no it is not 'joe six-pack', or at least not entirely. The primary audience for wide-adoption consists of your parents, your grand parents, your neighbors and friends who call you to fix their systems, children, etc. People who want to use their computer with a minimum of fuss, and who DO freak out when they get an unexpected pop-up, and DO run anything sent to them in an email, and DO use their first name as their password. Advances in Linux performance and functionality are great, but for wide adoption to ever succeed usability and intuitive design must take precedence. And as long as there is anything that requires a text file to be edited in linux, Windows will remain king.

Re:Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by Tarantolato · 2004-03-14 17:39 · Score: 3, Interesting

The primary audience for wide-adoption consists of your parents, your grand parents, your neighbors and friends who call you to fix their systems, children, etc.

For the home market, yes. There are, however, also the business and educational markets. There you have the same users, but they aren't necessarily doing all the install/config themselves.

And as long as there is anything that requires a text file to be edited in linux, Windows will remain king.

Mandrake's visual config is clunky, but it's comprehensive.

--
Google confirms: Ruby is the world's most beloved programm
Re:Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by value_added · 2004-03-14 18:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

"And as long as there is anything that requires a text file to be edited in linux, Windows will remain king."

Granted in Windows there is a GUI for most everything, but I really don't see distributions like Mandrake lacking in that area. As for the "everything else," how does joe six-pack editing text files on Linux compare with joe six-pack editing the registry in Windows? Noobs don't edit the registry? If the popularity of the numerous "registry tweak" sites is any indication, I'd say they do.

Personally, I'd like to think with a little hand-holding, the joe six-pack using Windows could get into the habit of editing text files with little fuss. Hell, they might even start using the command-line once they realise how powerful it is and doens't require any squinting.
Re:Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by k_head · 2004-03-14 18:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

You are 100% absolutely wrong. You could not be more wrong if were actually trying to be wrong.

The primary audience is the CEO. Linux desktops are ideal for the corporate environment. That's where they will rule first and foremost. Linux gives businesses more options and more freedom when it comes to the desktop. This means a business may choose to run thick or thin clients, they can centralize all software so upgrades are a snap, they can effectively lock down desktops and won't have to worry about their users clicking on emails or web sites that carry virus payloads. Of course they also get to save a buttload of money and dictate their own upgrade schedule too.

Once the corporate desktop belongs to linux then the home users will also adopt it so they can take their work home.

that's what happened to windows, that's what's going to happen to linux.

Look at what HP is doing, they are selling these PCs at small businesses not Joe Shmoe. IBM and SUN are also selling linux to the corporate desktop.

Here is my prediction. By the end of 2005 Linux will have reached critical mass on the corporate desktop. By that I mean around 20% of all corporate desktops in the world (not the US though) will be running a linux desktop. It will double in 2006 and then the growth will slow down because the US businesses will be very slow to migrate to it.

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The best way to support the US war effort is to continue buying American products.
Re:Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by codepunk · 2004-03-14 19:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

Listen dork I manage 100's of linux desktops in a corporate environment. Not once has a single one of my users had to modify a config file and I would care to guess that most of them have alot less skill with a computer than you do. In a corporate environment Linux desktops are deployed thin client and in a totally controlled environment. If they want something installed or configured I do it. If they need a desktop icon I put it there. If they have to add a printer it is done for them.

A hp desktop preloaded for around 400 bucks sounds real good to me. I can buy them preloaded and modify one line in the inittab to hook to our desktop servers. This will save me the time of having to run a kickstart install to get a minimum x running on a client. Not to mention the boxes have a very nice warranty.

--

Got Code?
Re:Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by 0x0d0a · 2004-03-14 21:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't believe that 20% of all corporate desktops in the world will be running Linux by the end of 2005. No, that just isn't plausible.

Businesses do transitions when they bring in new machines. A typical business machine has, what, a four year lifecycle? That means that even if every machine being replaced was converted to Linux, there'd be less than 50% people using Linux. You're requiring about half of all new desktop purchases to be Linux-based. That's wildly unrealistic.

I'd say that 20% Linux desktop business penetration by the end of 2007 would be a very positive outcome.

--
May we never see th
Re:Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by fwarren · 2004-03-14 22:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yeah right, I would rather walk a 70 year old lady through the registry removing 50 or 60 keys, with the potential to totally fubar her windows box, so Norton Antivirus can be reinstalled after a virus that Norton could not detect has infected her system and corrupted the antivirus as well.
I would just tremble at the thought of telling someone to type "kdesu kate" and having them browse to /etc and opeing up a file and make a chage with me.
I have had to tell a windows loser that they were out of luck if they could not come up with a boot disk so we could get back into their box in DOS mode and restore the registry, since they deleted HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/Software or some other such nonsence, even though I asked them, are you sure the key name you are on is "x"
I would bet the system comes with a linux CD you could boot from and walk someone through with VI, instead of some lame ass recovery CD, that only gives them the option of nuking and paving their current system without saving any of their data.
I actually look forward to the day of providing lunux support.
As long as you can crap out windows with one keystroke in regedit, Windows is just not ready for the desktop.

--
vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
Re:Putting the cart ahead of the horse. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-15 00:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

You have a short memory or less experience. The transition was;
Early 1980s: Business: Nobody got fired for buying IBM.
Mid 1980s: Individuals: I can afford a computer...I'll get the same one as I have at work. (Not the much nicer Macs or other systems of the time.)
Mid-to-Late 1980s: Business: We will use Word and Excel as well as Lotus 123. It is cheaper and graphical. And cheaper.
Early 1990s: Individuals: I'll get that new computer -- it does Windows!
...and the rest you know, including the fairly recient price increases for MS Office.
Business use definately drove adoption of Windows in the home.

Re:Interesting. by baryon351 · 2004-03-14 17:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's right around the corner now...

So's AmigaOS4, Doom III and Duke Nuke'em Forever

(actually I think mandrake is doing well enough now as is to be a competitor to windows. Both have quirks that need fiddling from time to time, and mandrake is improving quicker than win)

Re:Plenty of high end workstations by manganese4 · 2004-03-14 17:35 · Score: 2, Informative

see http://www.hp.com/workstations/itanium/zx6000/ and http://www.hp.com/workstations/ia32/index.html

--
I make my face look like this and concerned words come out.

Hey HP! by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · 2004-03-14 17:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

How about Mandrake laptops? With wireless, ACPI, etc, already supported?

--
This guy is way out there

Re:Hey HP! by jadel · 2004-03-14 19:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

My 6 month old HP NX9005 is now basically fully supported - CPU throttling, ACPI and 3d acceleration all work fine. I found this pageto be invaluable.

SMB is the old name for CIFS by tepples · 2004-03-14 17:35 · Score: 3, Informative

In this case, it's not Nintendo's Super Mario Bros., and it's not Sega's Super Monkey Ball either. SMB can mean either small-to-medium businesses or server message block.

I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie underlor by utahjazz · 2004-03-14 17:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Someday, someone will explain to me why 'We' want linux to be adopted by the other 95% of the market. 'we' all lament what has happened to the Internet since 'they' finally found out about it (and thought it had just been invented). We pine about the good old days of the usenet, when it was like, useful.

I dread a scenario where, around 2005, everyone and their grandma is buying a Linux box (that new OS that just came out year or so ago). And it all goes to shit. You just know it will.

Everyone will run as root, open viruses, execute them. All our favorite apps will become add-filled feature-burdened piles of stinking filth rushed to market despite thousands of high severity bugs.

It willl suck hard and we'll all look back fondly on the good old days.

Drivers by tepples · 2004-03-14 17:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

Someday, someone will explain to me why 'We' want linux to be adopted by the other 95% of the market.

More market share than, say, Mac OS X means more chance of getting manufacturers of newer peripherals to put effort into writing drivers or at least into providing free software developers with technical information sufficient to write and maintain a driver. Lack of drivers is the primary reason I'm still on Windows 2000, as the copy of Mandrake I tried a few months ago didn't work with my Radeon 9000 card (except in unaccelerated VESA mode), and Microtek denies the SANE developers any information about my scanner (a Scanmaker 4850).

Re:Drivers by salimma · 2004-03-14 18:59 · Score: 4, Interesting

the copy of Mandrake I tried a few months ago didn't work with my Radeon 9000 card

Ironic, isn't it? nVidia gets slammed so often for producing closed-source drivers, and now that ATi has followed suit, I actually specced out the last PC I built with a GeForce FX.

Now that both makers are forcing us to use binary drivers to get acceleration, at least nVidia has a better track record at updating drivers (and the open-source nv driver is further along too).

Yes, there are binary-only ATI drivers. No, I don't know how well they work.

--
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
Re:Drivers by ameoba · 2004-03-14 19:29 · Score: 2, Informative

The kicker is that the Radeon 8500/9100/9000/9200 (all essentially the same chip) is currently the fastest GPU that's well supported by Open drivers (Xfree/Mesa stuff).

--
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
Re:Drivers by krunk7 · 2004-03-14 19:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

They don't work as well as the nvidia drivers...yet. I do notice a respectable gain in performance with each new release. Enough so that I beleive they are taking the development seriously. The Radeon 9000 is supported by ATI's drivers, I'm rather suprised the parent's card didn't work.
It should be said there is not a single device made that is not supported by linux. Now before the onslaught comes let me clarify. . .There is not a single class of devices not supported by linux. Some particular manufacturers do not support their product so it does take a bit of forethought and planning (e.g. checking supported hardware lists). No, you can't just buy device and bank on the drivers being included on a shrinkwrapped CD in the box.
I'm happy to say that currently I have a fully working color scanner, 9500 pro w/ full hardware acceleration, iPod, CDRW/DVD player, sound cards, network cards (of course :)), ATA 100 expansion cards, digital camera, and other miscelaneous gadgets and hardware. I do know how the parent must feel though, when switching over from Windows I was burned several times by purchasing before planning. Now I've learned that 15 minutes of googling can save hours of migraines.
Re:Drivers by rokka · 2004-03-14 20:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is that so?
I was under the impression that Nvidia had far better performance in OpenGL than Radeon.

But whatever. Since you allways have to spend at least half a day installing the Radeon drivers while the Nvidia ones are up and running i 7 seconds, it's really not much of a choise anyway.

--
I could be wrong. I'm always wrong...
Re:Drivers by ameoba · 2004-03-14 21:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

nVidia's binary drivers smoke ATI's drivers in performance and general quality. I wasn't talking about the 'official' drivers, just that the Radeon 8500/9000/9100/9200 chips are the best chips that have open drivers. They are directly supported by XFree and Mesa (for GL/3D) without having to rely on closed-source binary-only drivers.

The problem is that current-generation Radeons (9500 and up) are almost a completely different architecture and nobody's really figured out how to do much with them yet...

--
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
Re:Drivers by korielgraculus · 2004-03-14 21:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

I actually doubt that even beating OS X will dramatically improve hardware support :(

Apple produced their own, very restricted, range of hardware (in terms of graphics cards etc) and then persuade (pay?) manufacturers to produce drivers. Look at the latest ATI cards ... out of the entire 9x00 range of Radeon cards only two (9800 Pro and 9000 Pro) currently have official drivers produced for them, compared to five for Windows (and that isn't including the Pro, XT versions etc.).

I suspect that at some point the Linux community may have to compromise and accept greater use of binary-only drivers in exchange for their hardware support being stronger than it currently is.

I am sure that there will always be those members of the Open Source community who would shun this and quite happily stick to cards that are possibly a generation behind in order to have open drivers. Unfortunately I don't have the strength to follow those principles, I just want my computer to do it's job and if that means compromise on whether I can see the source, then so be it (not that I would understand the source anyway you understand).
Re:Drivers by Milton+Waddams · 2004-03-15 00:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

the reason why apple has manufacturer support is not because of its market share but because it is closed source and therefore has complete control over Mac OS X. the problem with linux is, ironically, because it's open source. there's too much freedom and therefore too many distributions, too many variations within those distributions. if a manufacturer wants to provide support for linux while staying closed source it's faced with so many hurdles. why would a manufacturer spend so much time and trouble extending its support to linux even if linux had a 10% market share?
Re:Drivers by Majin+Bubu · 2004-03-15 00:28 · Score: 2, Informative

I had a Radeon VE, and acceleration wasn't working as well; by following these steps it worked:

searched for mesa libraries in mandrake cd and installed everything;
edited files as follows: /etc/X11/XF86Config-4
Section "Device"
Option "AGPMode" "4" /etc/modules
agpgart /etc/modules.conf
alias char-major-10-175 agpgart
options agpgart agp_try_unsupported=1

I think the last step is the most important. Anyway, when I later upgraded to a Rad 9000, it still worked fine without any further ado.

Regards,
Andrea

--
Ander
@=
Re:Drivers by Cereal+Box · 2004-03-15 01:16 · Score: 4, Funny

I had a Radeon VE, and acceleration wasn't working as well; by following these steps it worked:

searched for mesa libraries in mandrake cd and installed everything;
edited files as follows: /etc/X11/XF86Config-4
Section "Device"
Option "AGPMode" "4" /etc/modules
agpgart /etc/modules.conf
alias char-major-10-175 agpgart
options agpgart agp_try_unsupported=1

What with these major leaps in user-friendliness, I'm convinced that 2004 really WILL be the year of Linux on the desktop!
Re:Drivers by tepples · 2004-03-15 03:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

in the time it has taken Linux

Microsoft Windows has had a ten-year head start, as it started out on a DOS kernel. Developers of desktop environments on top of Linux are not dawdling as you seem to suggest.

Re:Changes Nothing. by Grym · 2004-03-14 17:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

Hah!

Sadly, I tend to agree. I'll never forget the fury I felt when I opened up my HP Pavilion a few years ago to find that they had combined the soundcard and modem onto one PCI card. This wouldn't have been so bad if they hadn't of put a fake PCI cover on the back of the computer to make them look like the two cards were separate, and THAT wouldn't have been so bad if they hadn't of put the cover for the fake "modem" right in the way of my only advertised "free" PCI slot.

It was very deceptive. And the only reason was so they could say "one free PCI slot" on the box, knowing damn well that not only was that PCI slot unusable but nearly nobody is going to open it up in the store to figure it out. So the net effect of this ridiculous situation wass was that I had to buy a new soundcard and modem (for a modem issue) and from then on, I tell every person who asks (and that's a lot, since I'm in a tech support position) to avoid HP like he plague.

-Grym

Music and multimedia? by Sterling+Christensen · 2004-03-14 17:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Gaming yes, but that's not true anymore w.r.t. music and multimedia.

I watch videos (using Gentoo's win32 codecs ebuild) and play MP3s all the time in Linux. The only thing inferior I have to put up with is the gtk file selector that xmms uses.

Re:Music and multimedia? by modipodio · 2004-03-14 22:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

"I'm talking about professional level music creation/editing, and professional multimedia development."

Well maybe not right now but what about 1 or 2 years down the line ? I mean compare what Linux is like now to what linux was like 2 years ago in terms of a polished enough desktop that was easy enough for the average email,mp3,web browsing home user ? Look at knoppix and look at the basic linux desktop experience now. It has come along way.

Now take a look at the current state of sound applications under linux :

http://www.agnula.org/
http://audacity.sourcefo rge.net/
http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrm a/software /

Consider the fact that apple, a major platform in the multimedia world is now based on unix. This makes porting applications that work on osx to other unix like platforms (i.e linux) a lot easier. Also consider the fact that some multimedia companies like dreamworks are currently using linux to get stuff done :

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6103

Yes at the moment linux in multimedia is primarily just used to render stuff but consider what linux in multimedia will be like 1 or 2 years down the road ? Eventually it will get there and I think it will be the home enthusiasts who will make this happen.

A lot of companies like adobe complain about the effects of software piracy in asia and eastern europe but it was piracy that helped to promote a lot of these companies among young multimedia students. The fact is a lot multimedia students are unwilling to fork out the big bucks to use a lot of these expensive tools (like maya, brice or 3dsmax) so they download them or copy them for free. When these students then go on to work/start their own multimedia company they do not use pirated software but buy a proper licensed copy and then put it down as a tax right off. At the moment thanks to projects like fink, darwin ports and people making carbon ports a lot of cool free unix apps are becoming available to mac users of different skill levels. Now at the moment their is no question that professional apps like reason or cubase are better than any free unix offerings. The question is at what point does the free apps become good enough to handle most of the basic needs of a multimedia student and at what point does it become easier just to use this free app rather than bother going to the hassle of getting a cracked copy.
I think the gimp has reached this stage and audacity is nearly there. On the macs in my college I know that multimedia students are thought to use the gimp and told about audacity, I also know that a lot of business students use the gimp and have it installed on their laptops.

I think when these students leave college and start up/ start working for a company they are going to be using at least some free software. At first maybe only to do some trivial multimedia/other tasks but eventually I think as core applications mature and their is more input in the free software community from multimedia minded people you will see the quality of applications improve and user bases grow.

--
__________________________________________________ "UNIX is a fascist state, Windows is a democracy.

Re:Don't trust HP. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 17:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't understand the big problem with the "American's have no God given rights to jobs" statement... it is not an Amrican's god given right that they must have a job. I am not an American, but the situation is the same all around the world... companies of "developed" countries out source work to people in "developing" countries because they are willing to work for less... I don't support this, but business is business - and I bet 90% of the people who are complaining about it - if put in a investor role of a large company wouldn't be quite so high and might about the morals of it if it meant their pay check was a couple of 100,000$ more.

It's not an American's God given right to be employeed - its not even a God given right to have a chance to be employeed. The only God given right you have is the right to life... everything else, your own your own bucko!

(btw posting as AC, cause I don't have an account.)

Illegal by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 17:55 · Score: 3, Funny

Isn't it illegal to use Linux like that for a commerical purpose (Selling a PC) without licensing from the SCO Group... HP should do this legally.

Re:Illegal by Neo-Rio-101 · 2004-03-14 18:11 · Score: 3, Funny

And I bet if SCO told you to jump off a cliff, you'd do that as well.

--
READY.
PRINT ""+-0

As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by Killswitch1968 · 2004-03-14 17:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

I heard Mandrake was one of the easiest distros to use in terms of configuration and drivers. Sp I gave 9.2 a shot after getting the isos on FTP sites.

THE GOOD
1. Much prettier interface. Everything from the icons to the taskbar, to Konqueror was top notch
2. All my hardware worked right away; sound card, mouse, keyboard, video card, with exception of my Palm Pilot cradle. I had some monitor problems as you'll read about as well.
3. Speedy as hell. You'd run a program and it would actually run within a reasonable time.
4. Internet worked right off the bat. Awesome.
5. The video player played a lot of files easy-peasy and I didn't have to fight with codecs.
6. I could still access my Windows folders. Another great benefit.

THE BAD
1. My mouse was uncontrollable. XP has both a speed and acceleration option that is great for mouse control. The mouse options box in Mandrake didn't have these options and it was frustrating to use the mouse, even after twinking these settings for an hour.
2. By far the biggest problem: Installing programs. In XP it's as easy as double clicking an icon and picking a directory. Not so with Linux. You can read my post on the newbie forums
here.
I have no idea where anything installs to, nor the best way to uninstall things. Inevitably I have to use the command line. Even as an X-MSDOS user I found it very frustrating.
3. Despite claims of stability, Konqeror crashed repeatedly. I can not say why.
4. After installing a program, finding where it installed to would be like pulling teeth. Making a shortcut would be even worse.
5. Installing the correct driver for my soundcard was very complicated, even after reading the INSTALL file. I eventually gave up.
6. I got a sync out of range message when I first tried running Mandrake. I left the monitor settings on default during install. This took hours to discover and fix.

But above all installing programs is a pain. This means, once the desktop is setup, Mandrake is a dream. But configuring it requires far too much expertise, at least it seems like it. I found myself posting time and time again on the forums. They were very helpful people but their answers often left me more confused than I started.
I'm not trying to flame, just provide constructive criticism and ways to help make Mandrake better. I wish them the best.

--

Corporations: your universal scapegoat for all society's ills.

Re:As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by k_head · 2004-03-14 18:28 · Score: 2, Informative

You should try Lindows next. Click N Run is pretty effortless. It's based on debian so you can't really go wrong.

--
The best way to support the US war effort is to continue buying American products.
Re:As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by Joe+Tie. · 2004-03-14 18:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

But above all installing programs is a pain.

I agree, for me that's one of the most annoying things about most distros. While legalities and shortages of people to make new packages are understanable, I still hated either installing from source on an rpm based system or trying to make updated packages based on how mandrake did it. That's why eventually I settled on Debian Unstable. What it lacks in configuration utilities it more than makes up for in available packages. I use the command line for it since I've usually got it open anyway for working on my own code, but had I wanted to everything I've installed could have been done through synaptic's gui. Well, excepting comercial releases.

--
Everything will be taken away from you.
Re:As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 18:46 · Score: 2, Informative

answers to your "the bad"
1. The mouse is controllable. Assuming you're using kde, find "configure your desktop" in the start menu, then expand peripherals, then click on mouse and configure away.
2. Again, click the kmenu (aka start menu) and find "packaging --> install programs" and click that. put in root password and you can download and install programs to your heart's content.
use plf.zarb.org/~nanardon to easily generate the commands necessary to setup net downloads of software for free. There is probably an easy tool to update this too, I just don't bother because "urpmi.update -a" as root is so easy.
3. I don't know what's up with konqueror. It's rock solid for me. I highly recommend you try mandrake 10 when it comes out because it is using kde 3.2 which is a major improvement.
4. the beauty of linux and unix in general is that you don't have to know where programs are installed. if you go to the command line you should just be able to run it because it should install in your path. Also, if you install via rpm you should get automatic entries in the kmenu. From here you can add links on your desktop or on panels if you like.
5. what soundcard? It's probably fixed in mandrake 10. Try #mandrake on irc.freenode.org
6. What version of mandrake did you try? I've never heard of this happening.
Re:As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by Hooded+One · 2004-03-14 20:02 · Score: 2, Informative

While I'm not going to suggest that your'e a TOTAL N00B and a failure for not getting the hang of Linux on the first try, I'll try to helpfully address a few of your points.

1. KDE Control Center -> Peripherals -> Mouse -> Advanced.
Yes, it is a shortcoming of the component-ized nature of Linux that things have to be configured in several different places when they should really be in one. This wouldn't be a problem at all if there were just one desktop environment (KDE, of course) to deal with, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Still, I think improvements can be made.

(After reading other responses written while I was writing this) Ok, I'm not sure why it's still not behaving. What does the Mandrake mouse options say you're using for a mouse driver, and what mouse are you actually using?

2. The program locations concept was hard for me to get used to as well. The basic idea is that you don't *have* to worry about it, since the distro takes care of it for you, but it's hard to come from Windows where programs install themselves haphazardly wherever they want by default. Still, there are times when the RPM way just doesn't work.

As for your specific problem, the package name you were trying to install indicates that it's a package for ALTLinux, not Mandrake. The Mandrake package depends on a different library, so you won't find libpictl on Mandrake at all. Actually, it might just be a different name for the same library, but that makes all the difference as far as dependencies go.

There should be a Mandrake-specific rpm, pilot-link-0.11.8-4mdk.i586.rpm, (notice the "mdk" instead of "alt") listed in rpmdrake (the search feature is pretty useful, btw, if not as good as that of YaST or Synaptic).

As for uninstalling, the rpmdrake uninstall program (one of my biggest pet peeves with Mandrake is the separation of the install/uninstall parts of rpmdrake, btw) will take care of any installed RPMs easily and cleanly. Programs installed from source are trickier, but I'd stay away from those at first, unless there's something you really need that's not available from urpmi.

3. Yeah, Konqueror crashes a little too often for my tastes as well. It's gotten better in KDE 3.2, but most of the time it crashes (both in 3.1 and 3.2) is when I'm exiting after having a window open for a long time, at least in my experience. Your mileage may vary.

4. The Mandrake menus seem to be slow at updating themselves. I'm not exactly sure how long it takes them, but they'll be there. The categories seem pretty ok at directing which menu to look in. For the most part at least.

5. (going based on reply to other posts) If Mandrake supports it, you shouldn't have to isntall a driver yourself. Have you looked in the Mandrake Control Center sound card configuration? That is, if it's there. I remember 9.1 had a panel for it, but unless I'm stupid it's not there in 10. Well, that's crap.

6. Dunno about this one. You could have a bizarre video card/monitor combination, or Mandrake could have just goofed. This might be something to report to Mandrake QA. What card/monitor do you have, anyway?

I've also found that many of the answers to questions I look at are incomplete and cryptic. I hope what I wrote is understandable. I have a tendency to get incomprehensible when I get into geek talk.

Overall, I'd say you're likely to have a slightly better experience with Mandrake 10, though in your case I'd wait until the "official" edition is out. I've had a small share of problems with the Community release, and you don't seem like you need more complications. Good luck, and don't give up on Linux.
Re:As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by StarTux · 2004-03-14 20:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

That answer someone provided you confused me as well lol. Seemed to do with nothing about your question.

Don't use ./configure until you're a lot more comfortable with the command line and I rarely use it apart from installing bleeding edge programs.

KDE has Control Center that has Peripherals that also lists mouse, this is where you can change the mouse tracking speed, make sure to hit apply after each change.

You say your soundcard worked, then say it didn't in the next section as you wanted to install the correct driver?

Are you sure you're not running to the commandline quicker than needed?

Not sure on Mandrake, but most root installed programs end up in /usr/local/ that are built from Source. Quite a few times installing from source requires a few more development packages to be installed.

Sometimes you're better off getting Linux as a box set, at least with SuSE you'd get plenty of manuals that show how to use programs and to do installations, the price alone is almost worth it for the manuals alone.
Re:As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by buchanmilne · 2004-03-14 22:16 · Score: 5, Informative

1. My mouse was uncontrollable.

Most likely you selected the wrong driver for your mouse during installation. The 2.6 kernel now makes this a lot easier ... so Mandrake 10.0 should get this right.

2. By far the biggest problem: Installing programs. In XP it's as easy as double clicking an icon and picking a directory. Not so with Linux. You can read my post on the newbie forums
here.

Your problems are *precisely* because you think WindowsXP does things right, which it doesn't. You should not be downloading arbitrary packages from the internet WHEN THE PACKAGES ARE PROVIDED BY THE DISTRO!!!!!

Don't install ALT Linux packages on Mandrake, when Mandrake provides packages.

Don't go looking on the net first for packages, USE THE PACKAGE MANAGEMENT TOOLS PROVIDED!!!

Mandrake has it's own pilot-link packages, and you can install them in the Mandrake Control Center->Software Management->Install software, or you could do it with 'urpmi pilot-link'.

Just becuase you're used to XP only providing 20% of the functionality you need out-the-box doesn't mean Linux is like this.

If you have downloaded a Mandrake RPM, double-clicking on it should actually install it for you. Did you actually *try* this? It's worked every time I tried it.

I have no idea where anything installs to

Why do you need to know? Everything is installed so that is just works. If you really need to know, the package management tools will tell you.

, nor the best way to uninstall things.

Use the package management tools (Mandrake Control Center->Software Management->Remove software).

3. Despite claims of stability, Konqeror crashed repeatedly. I can not say why

Well, unless you tell use what you were doing, there's not much we can do to find out what the problem was ... or whether there is a solution.

4. After installing a program, finding where it installed to would be like pulling teeth. Making a shortcut would be even worse.

Well, if you don't use Mandrake packages, this is what happens. The equivalent would be compiling and installing all the files on Windows, and when last did you do that?

5. Installing the correct driver for my soundcard was very complicated, even after reading the INSTALL file. I eventually gave up.

Unless you are using a card with proprietary drivers, the chances are you already had the driver installed, either:
-the card was muted by default (ALSA does this to prevent damage), and Mandrake hadn't been provided with the necessary information to unmute your sound card on first boot (as it does for most cards, since users have provided the necessary information)
-your card works better with a different driver WHICH IS INCLUDED!! You could have run draksound to switch drivers and give the other driver a try.

6. I got a sync out of range message when I first tried running Mandrake. I left the monitor settings on default during install. This took hours to discover and fix.

Essentially the same problem. Mandrake includes information on all monitors it can. But, if no-one bothers to report their hardware settings, nothing can be done to fix it ...

See how you can help here.

But above all installing programs is a pain.

Then you are doing something wrong, and you should be careful not to give out false information when you haven't got enough experience to tell if you are just doing the wrong thing.

Forget what you learned about the easy way to do things on Windows, they are WRONG! Things are much easier on Mandrake, *if* you are prepared to actually change your habits ...
Re:As an XP user I tried switching to Mandrake: by ElGanzoLoco · 2004-03-15 01:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

>>I have no idea where anything installs to

>Why do you need to know? Everything is installed so
>that is just works. If you really need to know, the
>package management tools will tell you.

Ha ha! Laughable. The same zealots who flame windows users for "not knowing how the computer works" and for using "an OS that hides half of the files" etc., now flame linux newbies for WANTING to know where the files actually are?

Also, the general tone of your comment is: "learn how the computer works, and learn to do it HIS way!"
Bullshit. The USER is the master and the COMPUTER is the slave, NOT the other way round. Of course one has to learn how it works (and even this is debatable), but it should be simple for the user to set it up the way HE wants. Universal drag & drop, easy shortcut creation, etc, are a good way to achieve that ease of use. Try using MacOS X for a couple days for an example of an UI done (mostly) right.

Don't get me wrong: I tried mandrake (9.0) too, I liked it, and plan to install it on my home PC soon (need to buy new hard drive); but I agree with the original poster: there are a LOT of things that should be WAY more simple on the mandrake desktop. Until fixed, don't expect no "mass adoption" anytime soon.

--
Hello! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!

dx2000 specs by Johnny+Mnemonic · 2004-03-14 18:10 · Score: 4, Informative

dx2000 Specs from HP:

Linux - Mandrake 9.2
Intel(R) Pentium(R)2.80A GHz/533MHz
256MB DDR 400MHz (2X128)
Integrated Intel(R) Extreme graphics2 (64MB equivalent)
40GB PATA/100 5400RPM
16X/40X DVD-ROM Linux and audio cable for Linux

$627

Choosing Linux instead of XP gets you an upgrade to a DVD player from a plain CD, and saves you $21. Hum.

--

--
$tar -xvf .sig.tar

Re:dx2000 specs by mkohel · 2004-03-14 18:25 · Score: 2, Informative

If you customize you can get down to $431. The $627 includes a monitor.

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by gid13 · 2004-03-14 18:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

One major reason to want free software to be adopted by the rest of the market is so that open standards dominate, and I don't have to choose between MSN and not talking to all my friends. So I don't have to pay for software to read office documents that are sent to me.

Re: viruses, your worst case sounds no worse than the current state. The favourite apps will not become ad-filled because the base is open. Someone puts an ad in, fork the last one.

Because given the chance by rsilvergun · 2004-03-14 18:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

...Microsoft would gladly take away your ability to obtain cheap, Linux compatible commodity hardware (all for the sake of security, of course). If there are lots and lots of companies building Linux boxes, MS will find it a lot harder to do that.

As for everyone running as root and viruses, how is that different from when they run Windows? As for our apps, I use free ones. I know better than to run some shmuck's pop up blocker when I've got Mozilla and Konqueror.

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/

Re:Because given the chance by Tony-A · 2004-03-15 02:22 · Score: 2, Informative

force the user to run root in a minimalistic environment

This has already been done to some extent. A number of gee-whizz stuff refuses to run as root. A number of things go to a more minimalistic, brute-force feel to them. If you keep the name "root" and not do something stupid like "Administrator", the situation will tend to be self-correcting.

root is for when you have to fix things. You run as root because you need to, not because you want to. We still run Microsoft Windows, but I was smart enough to rename the domain administrator account to "root". If I leave a user's computer with root still logged in, my users get in a hurry to get rid of root and get their own stuff back. I don't know what they associate "root" with (seems like I've overheard some cracks about roter-rooter). My users aren't exactly /. material, but they do not "click on everything". If the account were still named "Administrator", It'd be a different story.

iTunes for Linux? by ericdano · 2004-03-14 18:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

Does that mean we will see iTunes ported to Linux? Bundle that with Linux, and you might drive sales of the HP iPod......

--
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
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Re:iTunes for Linux? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 20:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

HP sells MS Office too. Does that mean we will see MS Office ported to Linux?

Uhh, no.

Buy yourself a f. clue.

SCO-proof, too by violet16 · 2004-03-14 18:12 · Score: 5, Informative

Plus every HP Mandrake PC comes with free indemnification against SCO lawsuits!

--
I should buy some cement.

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by smallpaul · 2004-03-14 18:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

Someday, someone will explain to me why 'We' want linux to be adopted by the other 95% of the market. 'we' all lament what has happened to the Internet since 'they' finally found out about it (and thought it had just been invented). We pine about the good old days of the usenet, when it was like, useful.

Usenet is a communications mechanism, not software. When Microsoft put the BSD FTP client on every desktop did that affect you at all? When Winzip became popular did that hurt people who use infozip? Ignore the consumer distributions of Linux and move on with your life.

I dread a scenario where, around 2005, everyone and their grandma is buying a Linux box (that new OS that just came out year or so ago). And it all goes to shit. You just know it will.

No it won't. They'll use Lycoris. You'll use Gentoo or Dragonfly or some other 'leet *nix distribution. There will be essentially no interaction between the two. Why do you care? You're like a high school student who is afraid that they won't be cool and unique if everyone else listens to the same music they do.

Everyone will run as root, open viruses, execute them.

So what? Why does it matter to you whether these viruses come from computers running Linux rather than Windows?

All our favorite apps will become add-filled feature-burdened piles of stinking filth rushed to market despite thousands of high severity bugs.

Sure. Grandma is going to ask for a graphical interface in VI and smilies in Berkley mail.

It willl suck hard and we'll all look back fondly on the good old days

The usual elitist blah blah.

But Will it Be Cheaper? by Schlemphfer · 2004-03-14 18:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

There's been a lot of interest in the top PC companies coming out with Windows-free desktops. Probably the biggest move so far has been Dell, which allows you to buy most of their machines equipped with pro-dos instead of Windows. But here's the surprising thing about the Dell offer: I'm unaware of a single case where a pro-dos equipped model is any cheaper than the same model shipping with Windows XP.

Now, with this HP development, I have to wonder if we're going to see more of the same, particularly since there's no mention that the Mandrake-equipped boxes will be any cheaper than their XP counterparts. Granted, there are some people who, for whatever reason, feel some dislike for Microsoft ;) And these people might be willing to have their computer ship without an XP license solely to deprive Microsoft of a few dollars.

But I have to think that most people, if they can't get a discount by going without Windows, would want to receive XP. After all, why turn down something that's free, and something you might decide to install later -- if only to make the machine more valuable for resale?

With this in mind, the option of ordering Linux boxes from major manufacturers just isn't all that exciting unless there's some kind of discount involved. Once you have the option to save thirty dollars by ordering your HP or Dell without XP, that will really be news.

--
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by k_head · 2004-03-14 18:25 · Score: 4, Funny

When that happens 'we' will move on the the next greatest thing. Maybe Amiga, maybe plan-9, maybe atheos or something.

It's like a city. In a city there are the slums, artists all move to the slums because they can't afford to live on the other side of the tracks. Eventually the artists section of town becomes fashionable because all the cool galleries, restaurants and clubs are there and the yuppies move in. Prices skyrocket the artists move the next slum and the whole cycle starts over again.

--
The best way to support the US war effort is to continue buying American products.

For use... by SuperKendall · 2004-03-14 18:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

But I have to think that most people, if they can't get a discount by going without Windows, would want to receive XP. After all, why turn down something that's free, and something you might decide to install later -- if only to make the machine more valuable for resale?

You have a good point, but I cannot resist noting that between dealing with spyware, a future SP2 release that may break who knows what software, and product activation worries that there is an old quote with a new twist that seems very applicable:

"Windows XP is only free if your time has no value".

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by SuperKendall · 2004-03-14 18:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

Someday, someone will explain to me why 'We' want linux to be adopted by the other 95% of the market. 'we' all lament what has happened to the Internet since 'they' finally found out about it (and thought it had just been invented). We pine about the good old days of the usenet, when it was like, useful.

Well, for one thing I'd sure like all those zombie spam/DDOS relays to be shut down - reducing Windows use to the more natural state of around 10% would be a great start to that end.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by salimma · 2004-03-14 19:02 · Score: 2

You're like a high school student who is afraid that they won't be cool and unique if everyone else listens to the same music they do.

Sometimes, though, artists compromise their music to appeal to mainstream audiences. I used to buy Shakira's Spanish-language albums but her English records have been disappointing. Sell-out.

Now, some bands manage to get good coverage without losing their uniqueness.. people like the Black Heart Procession, which I heartily recommend to people who like dark, hauntingly melancholic music :)

--
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut

Re:Interesting. by anthonyrcalgary · 2004-03-14 19:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

Just do what I do. Give up. An easy to use, powerful, stable, compatable desktop OS is, IMO impossible. Windows isn't easier to use as such, it's just less noisy in the intermediate stages of failure.

Be glad you know how to drop to the command line/edit the registry/whatever.

--
When someone might yell at me, it has to be OpenBSD.

Price vs same machine loaded with WinXP? by pjrc · 2004-03-14 19:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

Reading the article (yes, I must be new here) mentions several street prices for various HP models.

Anyone know how those compare to the same machines pre-loaded with a Microsoft operating system? Are HP's linux customers getting the same price, higher or lower for buying Mandrake instead of Windows?

--
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools

Standard installation/uninstallation routines by bonch · 2004-03-14 19:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

Until Linux desktops adopt an installation/uninstallation standard beyond the simple RPM-alike crap that's around now, Linux will always be an experience like that.

An installation API needs to exist that allows for software makers to have a simple installer on their CDs, just like in Windows, that allows them to install binaries, create shortcuts on the menu, and allow for proper uninstallation.

Doesn't look like that's gonna happen any time soon, though.

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by utahjazz · 2004-03-14 19:16 · Score: 5, Funny

Don't underestimate the power of the dark side.

There is a multi-trillion dollar economy out there that is currently ignoring Linux almost entirely. If that industry turns to Linux as it's bread-and-butter OS, all will change, forever.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Just as the web became riddled with OBJECT tags and Flash menus, Linux distros will follow the money and be ruled by the desires of the PHBs that control that money. There will be ads. There will be godawful UI's. Talking paperclips. And....DRM!!!

Finally, we will find out that Linus is Bill Gates' son.

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 19:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

"someone will explain to me why 'We' want linux to be adopted by the other 95% "

It increases my ability to service others computer needs for pay.

It decreases ANYONE'S ability to monopolize computer related enterprises.

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by Qa1 · 2004-03-14 19:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

The major reason we want Linux to become a popular OS is that more third-party software will be ported to Linux.

Windows, being the current popular OS, has thousands of independent yet commercial developers and companies investing time, effort and research making cool tools and apps for it.

As a developer, it's great to have tools like Emacs and Python for free. But let's face it: some top notch tools probably won't be replaced by OSS any time soon. It just requires too much effort, research, and knowledge (much of which is patented by Adobe) to create a graphic suite as powerful as Adobe CS.

So making Linux popular is the only way to lure all these powerful art and development tools to the Linux environment.

Re:Don't trust HP. by Doquar · 2004-03-14 19:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is the same hp that is forcing it's workforce to take vacation during Christmas 2004 because the company will close for a week to save money.

That doesn't sound bad upfront, but it actually is. I used to work for HP and the fact that they made you take vacation for a whole week during certain holidays used to piss me off. There were times when I didn't have any vacation left, so I had to stay home without pay. To me thats saying: "you have vacation time, but we tell you when you can take it."

Anyway, the fact that HP is so self-centered and is investing in Linux is quite a good sign for its widespread adoption. They clearly feel there is a market and a profit to made in selling computers with Linux preinstalled.

You're both wrong by gad_zuki! · 2004-03-14 20:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

Windows is a platform for running windows software, billions of dollars of windows software. The amount of savings to migrate to non-windows apps would have to astronomical for any CEO/CIO to take Linux seriously as a desktop replacement on the level you suggest.

MS Office isn't just software, its how businesses are run. Its a brand, a religion, and a cult all rolled into one. We all know it just consists of a word processor, spreadsheet, etc but to users its all they do - and ALL THEY KNOW. Heck, most users can barely use office, and its much easier to use and has a better help system than the alternatives.

My prediction: MS will be around for longer than we care to admit. Linux will continue to make inroads into the server room and will eventually be knocked back a bit when MS finally make a server anyone can administer and setup.

I'd like to think otherwise, but MS is like the IBM electric typewriter. Once its made x amount of inroads into corporate culture it may never leave.

On the bright side, there will be more technological revolutions and if these can help business then some other company might be able to replace MS (that is if MS doesnt buy the tech). Linux's eternal game of 'catch-up' isn't a revolution, its a cheap alternative that may not be worth buying into. Its like buying generic compared to a name brand.

I'd like to be an optimist and pretend there will be a healthy and free IT market, but the Justice Department let MS go. No multi-boot machines. Still the same old. Maybe the next administration and another lawsuit can change things, but right now MS is winning out loud. Hell, even their products are much better than they were three years ago and they are learning from their security mistakes.

Its been the year of the Linux desktop for years now. It seems it will always be 'right around the corner.' The only saving grace I see is nationalistic paranoia so that other countries' government agencies aren't neccessarily running windows in all departments in fear of CIA backdoors.

I'm sure this will be modded down the same way an atheist at a church gets shouted down.

Re:Stability isn't a problem. Bugs are. by buchanmilne · 2004-03-14 20:17 · Score: 4, Informative

Little things like killing CD-ROM drives

No drives were killed, their firmware was merely overwritten becuase the drive was non-compliant. Drives with never firmware didn't exhibit the problem (so, obviously LG was aware of the problem, they just didn't bother to inform *their* customers). LG provided a means to reflash the firmware on the drives (for those that had already had the firmware overwritten) and tools to update the firmware for those as-yet unaffected.

BTW, the patch that caused the problem originated with SuSE ...

And, Gentoo had the same problem, they just have so little market share no-one was bothered to fix the problem until Mandrakesoft found the cause ...

screwed up menus

Guess who didn't install updates for 9.2 ...

non bootable boot CDs

On some hardware, only on the download version, and CD2 does boot and can be used to start installation (and all of this is covered in the errata).

10.X been out a week or so and already 400MB of patches!

10.0 Community has been out for a week. And, that's the whole point of the community release, to iron out all the really minor issues that end-users really care about, but some of us couldn't care less about.

You should really wait for 10.0 Official to give out to newbies ...

Mandrake is often more cutting edge. 2.6 Kernel and so forth but Cutting Edge often means you bleed.

So, install the 2.4 kernel available with the distro.

A .0 release on a new kernel series is always problematic (do you remember 8.0?).

hmm... Windows refund... by jcuervo · 2004-03-14 20:22 · Score: 3, Funny

Are they charging for preinstalled Linux on their machines?

Will there be a "Linux Refund Day"?

--
Assume I was drunk when I posted this.

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by Too+Much+Noise · 2004-03-14 20:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

Just as the web became riddled with OBJECT tags and Flash menus, Linux distros will follow the money and be ruled by the desires of the PHBs that control that money. There will be ads. There will be godawful UI's. Talking paperclips. And....DRM!!!

Sure, but you're talking commercial linux distros here. There will be always the side - Debian, Gentoo, Fedora and the people who care will just (e)merge the good (GPL) parts of the other side and leave the bad ones. I for one don't see Debian and DRM mixing too well >:)

It's not going to be much different from today - and the GP poster has a point. The "popular choice" will be something like Lindows or Lycoris for desktop users - and remember that Lindows already has those problems, default root and 'windows-type convenience' (hah!) So there will be 'secure Linux boxes' and 'insecure Linux boxes' ... with the possibility of a trend in user education if the vendors will give a damn.

But the most important part is: if you're using a GPL distro you won't care about commercialized Linux! no, scratch that - you will probably get drivers due to commercial Linux distros, so it's not that bad.

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by turgid · 2004-03-14 20:31 · Score: 2, Funny

Maybe Amiga, maybe plan-9, maybe atheos or something.

Maybe CP/M. MS-DOS, Atari TOS, RiscOS, hell, what about the Sinclair QL? That had multitasking and structured BASIC, all in ROM!

--
Stick Men

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by Neo-Rio-101 · 2004-03-14 20:38 · Score: 4, Funny

You're right about one thing.

We'll see wave after wave of trojan programs that require the superuser password in order to work .... and guess how many people are going to do as instructed?

Already there are loads of Linux apps that require Superuser intervention... take CD-Roast for example.

--
READY.
PRINT ""+-0

Re:hardware grumbles... by buchanmilne · 2004-03-14 21:09 · Score: 2, Informative

Hmm, from your symptoms, I am guessing you should try booting with the options 'noapic nolapic'.

Everything works out-the-box on my laptop.

Re:They're just selling to pirates by 0x0d0a · 2004-03-14 21:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

The people who buy these machines are going to just wipe them clean and install an illegal copy of windows and spend their $40 on ice cream.

That's still a good thing for Linux folk. Less funds for Microsoft mean less funds used to attack Linux.

--
May we never see th

Linux OS accrediation by OffTheLip · 2004-03-14 21:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

In the world of US defense department computing the major roadblock for Linux acceptance is accredidation. Linux is deployed in many places but frequently in typical roles as a server thus out of sight of many users. My work location is exceptional in that Linux desktop presence is increasing but we continually run into problems with sites refusing to run the OS because of lack of accredidation. This is an expensive process for companies such as Red Hat and SUSE but must be persued. The deep pocket companies continue to lead.

Bullshit by 0x0d0a · 2004-03-14 21:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

You're full of it. You are trying to say, with a straight face, that people expected Linux to take over the desktop in *'98*?

Most of the time in the past was people getting excited about the ability for *geeks* to use exclusively Linux -- Open Office, Samba, etc made it feasible to work with Windows users and still keep using Linux.

Red Hat's CEO said, what, six months ago that Linux isn't ready for the desktop war just yet?

This year and last year are big because there are a lot of major open source apps coming out and being *usable*, by *typical users*, at at least a basic level, as a substitute for Windows apps.

Finally, if you don't think Linux usability has improved massively since '98, you just plain don't remember 98. We had no GNOME or KDE apps. Preference dialogs didn't exist. Widget sets were Tk, and black-and-white Athena. Boxes required a serious sysadmin to secure out-of-box.

Last year, I agree that there were a lot of people on Slashdot that were predicting big gains on the desktop. And guess what? A bunch of governments and big companies starting transition processes, or at least made it much more easy to move a chunk at a time to Linux. If anything, I'm surprised that things are going this quickly.

My prediction is that Linux will break 10% desktop market share before the end of 2006. That is a *huge* number of users to move from one platform to another -- perhaps around 100 million users -- , but remember that there's a threshhold effect at which point application vendors, people doing file formats, etc cannot ignore Linux, and once that hump is over, it becomes much easier to move to Linux.

Web sites are already improving -- I don't see the number of "IE-only" sites that I did thanks to the spread of Mozilla, Linux, and Mac OS X running Safari.

That being said, I think that as Microsoft gets more worried, they will do whatever it takes to fight back effectively. That may be as far as moving to a Linux-based distribution and porting their products to it. Microsoft is unlikely to die, no matter what.

--
May we never see th

I buy open source by 0x0d0a · 2004-03-14 21:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, perhaps nobody else does, but I buy my video cards based on open source support (not Linux support alone).

For years, Matrox had the best support for Linux with open source drivers. I bought Matrox cards. Currently, ATI has the best open source support. Right now, I'm buying ATI. I'll keep doing so, as well. I use my cards under Linux exclusively, and binary drivers are a tremendous pain in the ass to deal with. I recognize that video card vendors have reasons for wanting to keep their drivers closed-source -- that's fine, but I happen to value open source.

--
May we never see th

Re:I for one do not welcome our Linux newbie under by buchanmilne · 2004-03-14 22:20 · Score: 2, Informative

Sure, but you're talking commercial linux distros here.

Surely "commercial" is the wrong adjective here.

Gentoo is just as commercial as Mandrake is ... they sell goods on their site, and Mandrake is:
-totally GPL (the development tree, public stable tree, and download ISOs)
-more open than Debain and Fedora

I think you may prefer to use non-free or similar (yes, Debian has non-free software in contrib AFAIK ...).

ProE does run in Linux (and others) by buchanmilne · 2004-03-14 22:31 · Score: 2, Informative

Kidding aside, the biggest reason more workstations are sold with Linux is that there aren't enough professional applications (design stuff like ProE, The pSPICE family (at least Cadence and Synopsys, etc) haven't all been ported to linux yet.

Pro\E *is* available on Linux, and in fact, on HP workstations.

Many other scientific applications are available on Linux, including Matlab, most CFD suites, most FEM suites, and more maths packages are coming.

The end of popular "grass-roots" Linux? by fuzzy's_world · 2004-03-14 22:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

Hmmmm. With MandrakeSoft teaming up with HP, SuSE now owned by Novell, and Red Hat already being a publicly-traded corporation, I think we're seeing a new phase for companies with popular Linux distros being more tied to the corporate world and less to their "grass roots" origins. I guess it was only a matter of time.

Re:Interesting. by fwarren · 2004-03-14 23:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

I know people who can boot from a floppy and with vi rebuild /etc and get a machine going again. You can reinstall some .deb's or rpm's, or copy /etc from another machine and the tweek it.

I don't know of anyone alive who can rebuild the registry from scratch, Mirosoft does not even understand it well enough to be able to rebuild it.

That is not a good sign, when the people who make it, can not fix it.

--
vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.

Re:Interesting. by fwarren · 2004-03-14 23:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yeah, this will never work.

After all, Walmart, started selling one striped down linux box for $200.00, an when Joe Sixpack saw it on their website and ordered it, they discovered it did not have windows on it and sent it back.

Oh! Wait a minute, after Walmart started selling that one system, they added several more linux bases systems, and they are still selling them over a year later.

I guess there is no chance of getting Joe sixpac of purchasing a linux system.

--
vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.

About your sig (was Re:Why no high end...) by orcrist · 2004-03-15 01:02 · Score: 2, Informative

Nice way to quote out of context. If you want to convince people of Clinton's 'badness' at least let them make their judgment based on the whole quote. Unfortunately, all I can seem to find in Google are mostly pages with the inflammatory fragment you have. The most complete I can find is:
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles... that we are unable to think about reality."

I personally would like to know what is left out by the ellipses, but it is still a radically different statement from what you have.

-chris

--
San Francisco values: compassion, tolerance, respect, intelligence

Figures by MC68040 · 2004-03-15 01:26 · Score: 4, Informative

Good to know:
One should not trust that HP figures for sold linux desktops represents actual new linux users.

As there is no windows license fee with the machines, my organisation buys (last batch around 15000 units) these configurations and then use our select/corporate windows license on them. This cuts us a great deal of costs from the otherwise mandatory per. computer windows license.

Well, $389 is too good to be true by Smallpond · 2004-03-15 02:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

The ad claims a $389 base price. When you go to the HP website and run the configurator, the cheapest you can make it is $436 (Linux, CD, 128MB, 40GB, no monitor, no floppy). Still not a bad price for a new PC.

Drivers-Slippery slope. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-15 02:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

"More market share than, say, Mac OS X means more chance of getting manufacturers of newer peripherals to put effort into writing drivers or at least into providing free software developers with technical information sufficient to write and maintain a driver."

Ah wishful thinking. Anyway what would be the point of running a free OS on a proprietary closed-source driver bedrock? If you're not going to abhere to OSS principles, why will they? Anyway I think that Windows people (the one's "requesting" binary drivers) haven't learned their lessons about the downsides of binary drivers. As one of the earlier posters pointed out "popularity" will have it's price, and it will be a high one. The only way to counter it is for us to be more like Stallman (love him, hate him, at least no one says that he doesn't stick to his principles). That's more than a lot of the incoming crowd (yeah that's harsh, but then actions speak louder than words). Point: "Lack of drivers is the primary reason I'm still on Windows 2000, as the copy of Mandrake I tried a few months ago didn't work with my Radeon 9000 card (except in unaccelerated VESA mode), and Microtek denies the SANE developers any information about my scanner (a Scanmaker 4850)." So basically this Windows user wants the OSS community to abandon one of it's core principles, so that he can migrate from Windows to Linux, and it's not even the OSS communities fault (yeah, we're making Microtek not give us any info.).

What's going to happen if that happens? Let's look at history. Geeks get fed up with proprietary OS. Geeks made aware of this up and coming free OS based on open principles. The die hard geeks move over and contribute to the growth of this OS leaving their old OS behind. OS get's good enough that the less hard core geeks make the move, leaving their old os behind. The pool of competent geeks is shrinking elsewere (sort of like salt being left behind when water evaporates). [You are here]. Now this beloved OS becomes really, really easy because it's compromised all the principles that made the competent geeks first come to it.

Competent geeks move on to another OS or create another one, leaving a desolate wasteland behind, with the same problems we presently complain about. So in essense there's a "chasing of the geek" happening. for a demographic that gets short thrift, we seem to be awful necessary(1). Why else do people want to keep playing in our pool?

(1) We're necessary, as the garbageman and taxi driver is necessary. Someone has to build and maintain the infrastructure.

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