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Anti-piracy Vigilantes Tracking P2P Users

brevard writes "From SecurityFocus comes news that a pair of coders with a deep hatred of software pirates have gone public with a months-old experiment to trick file sharers into running custom spyware they wrote that scolds users and phones home to a server. They circulated the program disguised as sought-after downloads like Unreal Tournament 2004 and Microsoft source code, and they have a website that updates in real time whever someone executes it. They've logged IP addresses for over 12,000 'pirates' since January. The EFF says the vigilantes may be committing a crime."

90 of 864 comments (clear)

  1. Trojans by myownkidney · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's what they are essentially spreading. There's asses should land in jail as soon as possible.

    1. Re:Trojans by s20451 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah, that's rich. They have a log of everyone who received a copy of their cracked software. Guess who gets that information in a deal with the Feds?

      Actually, I think this is pretty clever.

      --
      Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
    2. Re:Trojans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they should be locked up, then so should all the b4st4rds who shove their spyware into innocent users computers and actually corrupt their operating system to steal extra viewers for their own pathetic adverts and websites.

      I have been contacted many times by customers of mine complaining their website has been hacked, when in fact it's just their own computer that was hacked by supposedly legitimate US companies to alter the behaviour of IE!

    3. Re:Trojans by negacao · · Score: 4, Funny

      Can anybody point me to the proper network [e.g. kazaa, gnutella, etc] and maybe one or two of the filenames?

      I'd like to get it, and examine it. Wouldn't it be hilarious if their own trojan DDOS'd thier own site? ;)

      [I'd look on thier site, but it's already smoking.]

    4. Re:Trojans by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Isn't it a crime to intentionally compromise a computer system?

      This is soooo stupid on their part.

    5. Re:Trojans by plugger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not so sure. The file was freely downloaded from their machine by others, who then passed it on. Ok, the software they offered has different functionality than the victims expected, but that could apply to any program that 'phones home' without the user's knowledge. As soon as the downloader opens the file, it declares its function on the screen. If this is illegal, so are the likes of Bonzai Buddy.

    6. Re:Trojans by TykeClone · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then please (oh please!) let them be illegal!

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    7. Re:Trojans by PhotoBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't this totally pointless for finding "real" pirates anyway? For starters what people downloaded wasn't even illegal. I mean if I write a "Hello World" program and call it UT2004.exe does that mean everyone who downloads it is likely to be an evil pirate?

      Unless these guys have created fake files that match the size of the real thing (UT2004 is ~4Gb) and present it in the form of a CD image, surely the only people who would be fooled by this would be people who think a little 100k program could be a full game.

      This is hardly going to get very far with the BitTorrent or EMule scene is it? A pointless exercise that does nothing but put a back door into people's computers.

    8. Re:Trojans by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Since their site seems to be slashdotted, perhaps they did DDoS themselves in a round-about way?

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    9. Re:Trojans by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 3, Insightful

      everyone downloaded this expecting it to be the Keygenerator program.

      They already have the 4gb downloaded already...

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    10. Re:Trojans by bcolflesh · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I wonder if his desktop software product also contains trojan code?

    11. Re:Trojans by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If any of their victims were in the UK they have committed a crime - unauthorised modification of data on a computer - which carries a 5 year jail term.

      So if the US don't want to prosecute them there are extradition treaties to fall back on...

    12. Re:Trojans by mahdi13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It was the downloader's
      1. time to begin with, they chose to make the download
      2. Who really trusts downloaded illegal content anyway? Sue them for false advertising
      3. The disk space was already planned out for using the illegal download, this "Trojan" probably saved them tons of space (since UT2004 is 6 CDs)
      4. The bandwidth was already wasted in trying to get retail products for "free", it's the downloader's waste to begin with
      5. time the downloader could of spent working for a paycheck to purchase the desired product...again, nothing wasted but the resources someone was using to distribute and use illegal products.

      I don't stand up for it installing spyware, but if it just pops up a message with a black pirate flag and says you have been logged...the only thing that is harmed is the privacy of a criminal.
      If they start using this information for blackmail...that is illegal!

      --
      "Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
    13. Re:Trojans by thedillybar · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The real criminal is the company that charges $100 for the latest game knowing that it will sell at that price for no other reason than a carefully socially engineered populance.

      I don't know where you live, but in most places I know this is definitely NOT a crime.

      I can write a text game that's 100 lines of code and charge $10,000 for a license if I want. If you don't think it's worth it, code it yourself or buy it from someone else. Just because it cost me $10 to make it and I'm selling it for $10,000 does not give anyone the right to steal it from me.

    14. Re:Trojans by theLOUDroom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      3. The disk space was already planned out for using the illegal download, this "Trojan" probably saved them tons of space (since UT2004 is 6 CDs)

      This also goes for all those viruses and trojans that delete everything on your HDD. Just think of all the space they're saving you!

      Sure they lied about what they were, which means they are effectively committing theft of serivces, but they are using less than 1800MB so it's suddenly legal!

      You obviously have no concept of computer crime laws. I don't understand how your comment made it to +5.
      All the arguments you make are silly.

      1. time to begin with, they chose to make the download

      So!!?? If you say "this box is full of money" so I take it, and it turns out to be a bomb, you're somehow not responsible since I willingly took it after you lied to me about what it is? That's stupid (and not how the law works).

      2. Who really trusts downloaded illegal content anyway? Sue them for false advertising

      Ok. A) This isn't even a complete thought.
      B) Cracks aren't necessarily illegal.

      3. The disk space was already planned out for using the illegal download, this "Trojan" probably saved them tons of space (since UT2004 is 6 CDs)

      Stupid reasoning. Covered above.

      4. The bandwidth was already wasted in trying to get retail products for "free", it's the downloader's waste to begin with

      The theft of services occurs when the program is run. Any system resouces used by the program as essentailly "stolen."

      5. time the downloader could of spent working for a paycheck to purchase the desired product...again, nothing wasted but the resources someone was using to distribute and use illegal products.

      So it's ok to commit computer crime if you don't agree with the way someone is utilizing their time?


      You: "Yes, your honor, I stole his car, but only after I found out he had a stolen bag of Cheetos in the trunk.."
      Judge: "Case dismissed!"

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    15. Re:Trojans by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I buy the retail versions of SimCity because I love the game and I want to support Maxis. However, I hate having to put the stupid CD in the drive every time I want to play the game. It's bad enough I have to devote a box to Windows just for 1 game. I shouldn't have to prove ownership every time I want to play (guess that's why I play SimCity2000 more often than the later versions).

      People WILL pay retail for the stuff they like and respect. They shouldn't have to prove they're not crooks.

      So if I download a cracked version of a game I legally own that purports to let me play without the CD, I'm being treated like a crook, and someone's logging my activity. Screw them!

      It's still illegal (misleading, and spyware to boot).

    16. Re:Trojans by kenthorvath · · Score: 3, Insightful
      don't stand up for it installing spyware, but if it just pops up a message with a black pirate flag and says you have been logged...the only thing that is harmed is the privacy of a criminal.

      Of course it is always assumed that EVERYBODY knows that getting certain software from P2P is illegal. What is not reasonable to expect someone to know is that the program that they are downloading is not a freeware demo or some code that was released by the company. Just because the name of a file is "Unreal Tournament 2004 Full.exe" does not imply "Totally Illegal for you to download from me - Unreal Tournament 2004 Full.exe".

      Is the burden of legitimacy placed on me, the downloader, or on the person who is uploading and distributing the copyrighted work? If the burden is on me, then I am at risk every single time I visit any website because anybody may be serving copyrighted images that they don't own the rights to. I don't think there is much legal recourse for those that downloaded, unless they were told in advance that the said file was being illegally distributed and they knowlingly contributed to the act of copyright infringment. But the fact is it is much much harder to prove willing intent to break the law than an ignorance of the facts about the copyright status of the file in question.

    17. Re:Trojans by jratcliffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "The real criminal is the company that charges $100 for the latest game knowing that it will sell at that price for no other reason than a carefully socially engineered populance."

      First off, the sheer arrogance of this comment is mind-boggling. So, because you don't think game X is worth $100, but someone else does, means that they're "ignorant?" Wow, I must have missed the email where you were appointed arbiter of the value of all things.

      Secondly, the company that creates the game, owns the game. They don't HAVE to sell it to you, they don't HAVE to sell it at all. They're free to stick it in a vault somewhere and let it rot (which might explain Duke Nukem...). By the same token, you don't HAVE to buy the game. They offer the game for $X. You're COMPLETELY free to walk away, buy another game, turn on the TV, go outside, read a book, whatever. The transaction is completely voluntary for both parties. It sounds like you're saying that the authors of the game should be FORCED to sell it for less (after all, they're "criminals," and we force people to stop engaging in criminal behavior). By the same token, shouldn't we then FORCE you to buy the game? It'd be only fair. So, it seems like we have a deal - game publishers can only charge $30 per game (rather than $100), but you MUST buy everything they publish. Somehow, I don't see you signing up.

    18. Re:Trojans by maximilln · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Capitalism is not a crime. In a truly capitalist system the demand feedback is moderated by the price of the supply.

      We do not live in a capitalist society. Get the politic-speak out of your heads, people. A capitalist system which is subject to the tens of thousands of rules, regulations, and controls that we have in the US is... anyone...?

      Communism.

      Communism is an economic system controlled by the government. Capitalism is an economic system controlled by the flow of capital. In the United States we have an economic system that's controlled by... anyone...? The government.

      This very simple concept is proof that our government run schools are working perfectly to obscure the dominant role that our government plays in the economic conditions of our time. To most educated people this is indicative of... anyone...? Socialism. To the cynical educated people this is indicative of... anyone...? Fascism.

      Just because you want to live in a capitalist republic, and just because your politicians feed your dementia to garner your votes, doesn't make it real.

      --
      +++ATHZ 99:5:80
  2. Well, their server *did* update in realtime... by purduephotog · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... until about 30 seconds ago. Now it just sorta smokes.

    I guess what they say about examining the hex code for any file you download to look for suspicious strings seems really valid now.

    And if you don't see any, run an unpacker and see if there is anything embeded.

    Of course, you could just avoid running software someone else gives you....

    1. Re:Well, their server *did* update in realtime... by flimnap · · Score: 5, Informative

      Their results page simply lists the following info--

      Average time wasted: 12.888078236572 Seconds
      Total time: 1383.75 Minutes
      Hours: 23.0625 Hours
      Operating for: 928.40555555556 Hours

      Then there's a big table full of entries like this (reformatted to make it easier to view here)--

      ID: 6442
      PID: 3578
      FPID: 1
      Date: Mar 19 2004 07:42:53AM
      IP: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
      (Well really, let's not pick on one person ;)
      Location: Germany
      Run time: 17
      Filename: Unreal Tournament 2004 ALL VERSIONS KeyGen Crack (1).exe

      The site continues in that vein for some time... fascinating stuff.

      My thoughts: Software piracy is bad, m'kay, but two wrongs don't make a right!

    2. Re:Well, their server *did* update in realtime... by r00zky · · Score: 4, Funny

      Actually some of their logs are truly inspiring:

      Mar 18 2004 10:01:42PM
      192.168.1.1
      DustBunny.exe


      All that 192.168.x.x are a bunch of pirates! All to jail!!

      This one is better:

      Mar 18 2004 02:17:01PM
      xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
      United States
      malware.exe


      Only in the US can someone run a file called malware.exe downloaded from a p2p network *sigh*

      --
      I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
  3. Obligatory /. effect comment by tweakt · · Score: 5, Funny
    "...and they have a website that updates in real time whever someone executes it."

    Yeah, not for long...

    1. Re:Obligatory /. effect comment by frs_rbl · · Score: 5, Funny

      A mirror here

      --
      This is not my opinion. Actually, it's not even an opinion. And I'm nowhere to be seen near it
  4. which crime? by slavemowgli · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Out of curiosity, which crime would they be committing?

    --
    quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    1. Re:which crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Out of curiosity, which crime would they be committing?

      The same crime we commit every night, Pinky...

      TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

    2. Re:which crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For the same crimes virus creators are jailed.

    3. Re:which crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      which crime would they be committing?

      Electronic trespassing. Making use of system resources that are not theirs. Stealing electricity, hard drive, memory space and performing unauthorised network communications. Crackers have been put in jail for much, much less than the above.

      If they were disguised as codes for games like Unreal Tournament 2004 - I also imagine Epic games would have something to say about them:

      (1) Distributing what is effectively a virus using the Unreal name.
      (2) Taking the law into their own hands without the permission of the copyright holders.

      Only the copyright holder can determine 100% if distributing such codes are illegal. There are circumstances where wanting a new code is legitimate (loss of the manual, living in a country where the game is not available at retail). However, I'm fairly sure that Epic has the ability to remotely de-activate codes that were being illegally distributed (with the game validating your code with a central server before you're allowed to play online) - they already have a system in place for dealing with people spreading codes.

      Doubtless Epic wouldn't want to piss off potential customers by having a virus associated with them. And you bet your bottom dollar that the cracking groups are going to attempt to fight back and double their efforts to produce working codes now (if they've not done so already).

    4. Re:which crime? by micromoog · · Score: 4, Insightful
      So because people executed a program that was mislabeled, it is now electronic trespassing?

      "Mislabeled" is not the same as "intentionally falsely labeled".

    5. Re:which crime? by dheltzel · · Score: 3, Interesting
      However, I'm fairly sure that Epic has the ability to remotely de-activate codes that were being illegally distributed (with the game validating your code with a central server before you're allowed to play online) - they already have a system in place for dealing with people spreading codes.

      Interesting.
      Combine that with the recent report of a trojan that harvests codes from infected machines and you have a recipe for creating a new sort of havoc. If the trojan harvested codes are published in such a way that they get disabled, you'd have a sort of DDOS against a game company. It could overhelm their ability to sort out which users were legit, and piss off a lot of legit users at the same time. If you get enough personal info, you might even attack specific people to get them banned from the game for "sharing" their code if they do something you don't like.

  5. Heresay and Slander by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Who's to say these guys aren't mixing in IPs of people, who, for example, might have flamed them on message boards? I'm sure their end game is to get a job offer from the RIAA and MPAA . . .

  6. Where's the Mac version??? by Mononoke · · Score: 5, Funny
    Once again, Mac users are left out of all the fun.

    Dang it!

    --
    NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
  7. Just wait. by Moryath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It'll be about two more days now till someone alters the code and delivers a REAL malicious payload through the damn program.

    1. Re:Just wait. by platipusrc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but what if the program is altered to not delete itself?

      --
      And the muscular cyborg German dudes dance with sexy French Canadians
  8. To me this seems basic... by mobiux · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They say they are tracking software pirates.
    But realy pirates don't use p2p apps for warez.
    That's kiddie crap.
    More like they are tracking 14 year old's with a cable modem.

    try IRC, now if they could track that, it'd probably blow their minds.

    1. Re:To me this seems basic... by Leffe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Um... with a clientside virus, what would stop them from tracking it? (and probably irc client independant as they can just read the IRC(and whatever else you use) protocol data directly)

      Evil crackers like these criminals are no less clever than the rest of us, they just put their cleverness into more questionable things ;)

      Oh, and a question about IRC to anyone: The '/me' command, aka special CTCP action thingy... why does it use CTCP!?!?!?

    2. Re:To me this seems basic... by DrSkwid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      they just put their cleverness into more questionable things ;)

      like this : independent

      The '/me' command, aka special CTCP action thingy... why does it use CTCP!?!?!?

      because CTCP uses in band signalling that something special is happening /me is not part of the irc protocol and therefore is considered 'something special'

      CTCP uses ^A or chr(1)
      You'll see from this table that ^A is defined in ASCII as :

      A transmission control character used as the first character of a heading of an information message.

      Curiously the authors chose to end the text with another ^A rather than ^C. In their defence there is no End of Heading marker defined. /me is a client dependent implemtation of how to send : ^AACTION : $emote^A

      You can see the other CTCP messages here

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  9. Yes, but watch out for hypocrisy... by BenSpinSpace · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I believe most of us feel angry when reading about these vigilantes. I know I do. However, I would encourage all of us to remember that if these vigilantes were, say... tracking down spammers... then we would be extatic.

    Yes, I'm aware that there's a difference between pirates and spammers. But keep in mind that the RIAA probably sees P2P users the same way that we see spammers. Annoying, a growing threat, and obsessed with large penises.

    1. Re:Yes, but watch out for hypocrisy... by theLOUDroom · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I believe most of us feel angry when reading about these vigilantes. I know I do. However, I would encourage all of us to remember that if these vigilantes were, say... tracking down spammers... then we would be extatic.

      Speak for yourself. Maybe you're a hypocrite, but I'd be just as pissed if the program was targeted at spammers by calling it "1millionemails.exe".

      Computer crime is computer crime, and this is definately it. We need reasonable, legal, long-lasting solutions to the problems of the net, not some jackass breaking into system in a vain attempt to combat what he sees as a big problem.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
  10. Sharing Trojans by ravydavygravy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What I can't understand is why people would continue to share these programs once they realised they contained a trojan... The authors stopped sharing them because they found users were propogating them well enough anyway.

    Surely any sane person would delete corrupted/malicous downloads from their shared directory?

    1. Re:Sharing Trojans by Gabrill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The same users that are too lazy to look up free alternative software are going to go through their file sharing archives looking for virii and trojans?

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    2. Re:Sharing Trojans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not true, most people that use P2P software are total morons, or at least there are enough to keep it spreading

      you would also think a 2mb file size would tip people off that its not UT2k4 or Win2k Source Code

    3. Re:Sharing Trojans by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      why people would continue to share these programs once they realised they contained a trojan

      When P2P file-sharing programs are in use, the users are usually downloading bucket-fulls of stuff. So between the time the download of the file has been completed, and the time that the file is unzipped and run, there is a window of opportunity for re-distribution to take place. Given the small size of the file, it would probably be ignored until the download of larger files such as movies and warez has been completed, if not forgotten entirely.
      (Like your looters or panic-buyers during a power cut - they're grabbing everything they can get their hands on, because it's there for the taking, not because it's of any practical use to them).

  11. Re:Software is just INFORMATION by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You may not like it or agree with it (I sure don't) but right now it's the law. If we don't like a particular law (such as copyright) then we need to get our elected officials to change it.

  12. Vigilante by clifgriffin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As clifgriffin, I speak for myself when I say that "vigilante" is not a word we ever claimed. We aren't raging against internet piracy or p2p. We're just doing a social experiment...to see how a program spreads, who downloads it, etc... Kapersky has flagged it as a Trojan, though I still stand firm in my belief that this is in no way a trojan as it does nothing even slightly malicious. I don't think we'd have the "Trojan Horse" analogy to fall back on if all the soldiers in the horse had done was send back a message saying they'd arrived. :D

    1. Re:Vigilante by 68K · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is a Trojan - it doesn't have to do anything malicious, just something that is blatently NOT what its description (filename in this case) suggests. And you're capturing data from the users that run it, so it could be argued that it is in fact malicious.

    2. Re:Vigilante by WARM3CH · · Score: 4, Informative

      This can certainly be classified as a torjan. Being malicious or not has nothing to do with classifying a program as torjan. The simple fact that you have a way to spread it, implemented some form of call-home functionality in it is sufficient to classify it as a torjan. About being malicious or not, some may say that sending private information (like IP address) back home can be considered as a malicious act.

    3. Re:Vigilante by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The best way to detect crap like this is to use one of the websites that list CRC's of known safe/good files on kazaa.. simply match up after download and voila... you got a good, not virused to hell copy of LOTR MRTG early Beta Keygen + server..

      but yeah, I also catch these lame attempts at trojans on the p2p networks... their file sizes are always way wrong, and if you notice, the same group of fools sharing it and the other incorrect files...

    4. Re:Vigilante by sprouty76 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It doesn't have to do anything malicious to be considered a trojan. It just has to be an executable masquerading as something it isn't.

      And some of us consider phoning home fairly malicious.

      --

      No, I don't want a free iPod

    5. Re:Vigilante by PhxBlue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We had the IP when they downloaded the software.

      It's one thing to have someone's IP address. It's another thing altogether to post it as public information. Just because someone else may be in violation of copyright doesn't give you the right to violate their privacy.

      And you're making the assumption, which isn't necessarily valid, that your victims intend to violate copyright in the first place. If I lose my CD-Key to a game but still own the media, why should I not be allowed to use an alternate key? Surely ownership of the physical media is proof that I have license to operate the software in question.

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
    6. Re:Vigilante by slavemowgli · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You only had it if they downloaded it from you, though - which certainly can't be guaranteed in a p2p environment.

      --
      quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
    7. Re:Vigilante by biobogonics · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As clifgriffin, I speak for myself when I say that "vigilante" is not a word we ever claimed. We aren't raging against internet piracy or p2p. We're just doing a social experiment...to see how a program spreads, who downloads it, etc...

      Just like Robert Morris did in 1988?

    8. Re:Vigilante by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I speak for myself when I say that "vigilante" is not a word we ever claimed. We aren't raging against internet piracy or p2p.

      Oh really? Your statements on website would seem to disagree with that
      "At the start of this year, we (Justin and Clif, Clif and Justin) decided to start a new project. We declared war on illegal file sharing and pirates. The goal was to waste their time and bandwidth while tracking them and how the file moves around.

      Other 'interesting statements:
      3. We dissagree with the notion that this is a "Trojan".
      Our program is aboslutely dormant unless specifically and purposefully executed by the downloader.


      Exactly the same as the Beagle and other email trojan variants.

      We aren't reporting these people to anyone in the law enforment field, even though we should be.

      Yes you are. By posting it online, in real time.


      We could go on...

    9. Re:Vigilante by Sklivvz · · Score: 4, Informative

      this is in no way a trojan as it does nothing even slightly malicious

      You are tricking users in sending their personal information to you. This is a serious offense in Italy (where I live) and most of Europe. We take our privacy most seriously.
      Furthermore, cracks are legal in Italy (if you own a registered copy), because it is considered wrong for companies who sell you the software to try and restrict your access to it. For example, Playstation mod-chips are perfectly legal (tested in a court of law).
      So, you are actually defamating and violating the privacy people who are in fact not pirates or doing anything illegal.

      Thank you.

  13. Vigilante: Good or Bad? by handy_vandal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The EFF says the vigilantes may be committing a crime.

    Vigilantes are, by definition, committing crimes.

    A vigilante is a private citizen who acts outside the law, taking the law into their own hands.

    Some people (e.g. the vigilantes themselves) see this as a Good Thing -- enforcing Justice, where Justice would otherwise go unenforced.

    Others (such as myself) see vigilantism as the roots of rebellion and chaos -- acting as a private government, in defiance of duly constituted authority.

    Not that I have a hell of a lot of respect for duly constituted authority. Most of the cops I've met have been decent people, however, there's a long, sad history of cops acting as vigilantes, outside the law. Not to mention police states, governments run by mobsters, etc. etc.

    -kgj

    --
    -kgj
  14. The real problem is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't much care one way or another about the issue of going after software pirates, as there are some major assholes on both sides of the issue. But the problem with this approach is that if there are bugs in the antipiracy software it could end up screwing up a lot of people's systems and causing major expense and loss of time and effort. Moreover, it looks like people could convert this into intentional malware by renaming it, so that someone looking to download freeware documents on, say, the history of microprocessors, could end up with this crap on his machine. So I object strongly to the means, though I am ambivalent about the intent.

  15. From the looks of their page by IshanCaspian · · Score: 4, Interesting

    the software's not disguised as actual pirated software, but the keygens and cracks. AFAIK, those are in much more of a legal gray area than actual pirated software. Theoretically, if someone legitimately owns a piece of software, and they're on another computer, and they have the original installation media and they forgot their cd key at home, it wouldn't be terribly illegal to load up a keygen so they could play a round or two.

    Or hell, even take the Baldur's gate series. I bought every single game in the series, and I still crack all of those games since I don't want to have to put the cd in when I play. What about somone who has their GUID banned by punkbuster? I don't believe they have any right to stop me permanently from playing a game I bought online...what if I just use a keygen and get another key?

    Anyways, there's really not much of a case for what these people are doing. Besides, if they like vigilantes so much, what do you say we show them what a DDOS looks like?

    --

    But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
    1. Re:From the looks of their page by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you forget one more thing...

      I own a 100% legal copy of Cakewalk home studio 2002

      my install CD is broken so I have a choice of buying another copy or making my LEGAL copy work.

      so I download off Kazaa the iso file of the CD burn a new one and voila...

      now the frothing at the mouth Software people here would want me hanged for stealing money out of their mouths by not buying a new copy of their software every 30 seconds but who cares... I am doing NOTHING illegal and simply circumventing a disdain for customer service fr omthe company that makes the software.. I'm still using MY legal serial number and codes... I STILL have the legal license (AKA the box and other paper drivel that says so.)

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  16. Care to define how it's illegal? by NinjaPablo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article is pretty light on that point. I think anyone who downloads "UT2K4 Keygen.exe" or "Photoshop Full.exe" knows exactly what they are trying to get, and they know the risks of what they are doing. And therefore, if someone wants to write an app that phones home and tells the companies that someone is trying to use a crack, what's the harm?

    --
    SmashTech - No smashing of tech involved
  17. Here's another question... by clifgriffin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For those of you attempting to probe the moral questions of this project.

    What if my software, downloaded with no warranty from Gnutella, displayed the weather conditions in Kenya?

    I'd have their IP, and I could even safely retrieve the ID with legitimate pretenses.

    However, since my software rebukes the downloader for downloading a file that appeared to be a crack, it is a Trojan and a danger to the peoples of the free world.

    Just a thought.

    1. Re:Here's another question... by flewp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      2. The software acts with the confines of its own entity. The program does not compromise their system in any way, shape, or form. Every action it performs it performs soley for the purposes of logging an event. We are not in this to compromise downloader's systems, only to learn a little bit about who they are. It's a social experiment.

      Let me ask you something, if you went to install something, say what you thought was the google search bar for your browser, and instead found out it was giving out information, wouldn't you be a bit pissed? It's doing something other than what was intended. Sure, the software you're replacing might be illegal, but nonetheless, my point still stands.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
  18. Re:Of course it's a crime! by DrSkwid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On a related note, isn't it illegal to sell grass to someone while saying it's marijuana?

    yeah, it's intent to supply, no controlled susbtances required.

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  19. Legal precedent ? by agslashdot · · Score: 4, Interesting
    From the article - programs have circulated disguised as activation key generators and cracks for Unreal Tournament 2004, Pinnacle Studio 9, Norton Antivirus, TurboTax

    IANAL, but this is certainly illegal. It is akin to a sting operation, like when you open your car door for the hooker on the street and it turns out she's really a cop and you are arrested for soliciting & prostitution.

    You can't drop dollar bills on the road & then arrest citizens for stealing when they pick them up.

    Using temptation to get at potential thieves does not constitute law enforcement, unless I guess you are the FBI or somesuch.

  20. Yes, its probably illegal... by breakinbearx · · Score: 4, Interesting

    but is it wrong? It doesn't spread itself, others spread it. When you download a piece of code off of a p2p network, you take a risk that it isn't what you think it is. Obviously, these people are rather intelligent, and it appears that they aren't evil, and just want to teach certain lawbreakers a lesson. And although it is vigilante in the sense that they are stepping outside of the law, they're not doing anything harmful. Now, if they were formating someone's hard drive when the executable was launched, it would be different, but this is just a small rebuke.

    Props to these guys for sticking up for whats right.

    --
    Skill is successfully walking a tightrope over Niagara Falls. Intelligence is not trying. -- Anonymous
  21. Good for them by Cereal+Box · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've said many times on Slashdot that if you want P2P to be taken seriously and not be labeled as a haven for pirates, you need to actively engage in discouraging the use of P2P for illegal file trading. These guys are actually doing that. Good for them. At least they're not acting like some hand-waving Slashbots ranting about how no one takes P2P seriously, all the while refusing to acknowledge that the majority of data transfered on P2P networks is copyrighted, and furthermore refusing to do anything about it.

    My favorite comeback line: "Maybe we should outlaw knives because someone might do something illegal with them!" -- completely off-target. Right now, the situation with P2P isn't that a minority of people are using P2P networks to trade copyrighted materials, but that a minority of people are using P2P networks for trading non-copyrighted materials. Until P2P fans actively pursue and discourage the use of P2P for illegitimate uses, P2P will continue to have a bad rap and be pursued by copyright holders.

  22. Illegally distributed software by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's what they (the "victims") are essentially spreading. There's asses should land in jail as soon as possible.

    Sorry, that's not my personal view (I don't believe in locking people up for small-scale copyright infringment) but it is the view of some, such as the content creators whose property is being infringed on.

    I just find it ironic that just changing the subject line of your message from "Trojans" to "Illegally distributed software" gives us a whole new look at this issue: after all, most of the people engaging in P2P distribution of copyrighted material live in countries where it's illegal and probably punishable by a jail sentence.

    The majority of people here seem to be engaging in double think: messaging people who engage in P2P copyright infringement that what they're doing is wrong and publishing their IP addresses is a Bad Thing, yet tracking down the online behaviour of spammers and then publishing their real world addresses (without any consideration for what might happen as a consequence) is a Good Thing.

    Can someone please explain to me how one is so wrong yet the other is so right? (Preferably without resorting to the kind of language that you wouldn't use in front of your mother?)

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    1. Re:Illegally distributed software by Walkiry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can someone please explain to me how one is so wrong yet the other is so right?

      It's quite simple, with P2P sharing networks person A is passively letting their computer open so that any person B that comes and asks can grab a file if they like what they see.

      A spammer, on the other hand, will make everything possible to get past the locks I put in my computer to try and give me a file I didn't ask for in the first place.

      --
      ---- Take the Space Quiz!
    2. Re:Illegally distributed software by David+McBride · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You've missed the point of the argument. The argument is that intentionally distributing trojan code for installation on machines you don't own or control is a crime; in the UK it would fall under the Computer Misuse Act. That's bad, and you can be charged by the state and put in jail for commiting that crime.

      Whether or not the end-user is doing something legally / morally wrong by downloading what they believe to be material under copyright to which they have no permission to use is a completely independent discussion.

    3. Re:Illegally distributed software by R.Caley · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You've missed the point of the argument. The argument is that intentionally distributing trojan code for installation on machines you don't own or control is a crime;

      Interesting question. If you clearly label it as something no one should touch (even if the label is false), but leave it where it can be taken, are you distributing it.

      Imagine someone who packaged up some illegal-to-distribute physical substance in boxes labeled `private, personal and mine, do not touch', then left them around. Can they be done for distributing the substance if someone comes along and steals it?

      --
      _O_
      .|<
      The named which can be named is not the true named
  23. And the third important point... by clifgriffin · · Score: 3, Informative

    We only collect this information if they click the button.

    If they use any other means of exiting the program (ie, Alt+F4) it simply exits.

    Yet again, it all depends on what they do....we don't collect anything without them making defined, deliberate actions.

    It is not my belief that we are required to tell them that we logged the fact that they clicked "I'm Sorry. I Promise Never to Do it Again."

    I would also stress that this information is harmless to them as we proved only that they downloaded a file with the same name as a crack...nothing that poses any kind of threat at all to them.

    1. Re:And the third important point... by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The logging happens when they click a button.

      Do you tell them of that fact before they click?

      It appears you don't. There is no other escape button on the popup window. No other mechanism, other than alt-F4, to dismiss your box.

      You give the user little opportunity to not have it phone home.

  24. Server hosed by yknott · · Score: 5, Informative

    Behold: Walk the Plank and Operation Dust Bunny
    Note: Due to responses by certain detractors, we've updated our legal section (again) to further clarify our stance.

    Apparently, this is becoming more and more newsworthy. Security Focus called today and interviewed me. Here is the resulting article: http://securityfocus.com/news/8279

    At the start of this year, we (Justin and Clif, Clif and Justin) decided to start a new project. We declared war on illegal file sharing and pirates. The goal was to waste their time and bandwidth while tracking them and how the file moves around.

    Results Pages for the Impatient: Walk the Plank Status Page | Dust Bunny Status Page

    Walk the Plank, You Pirates!

    The first version of this was more-or-less a test to see if it would work. We created a program in C# that would pop-up a message scolding the user. When the program closes, it would "phone home" to our servers, giving us the filename, how long the program ran (run time), and their IP address. We entered the information we collected into a database.

    We copied the binary then renamed it to a bunch of warez-like filenames that we found via Jigle.com and searching different P2P networks. We put it up on the Gnutella file sharing network and waited. Within minutes, we had downloads. However, we didn't have entries in the database. The next day we came to the conclusion that people didn't have .NET installed and thus couldn't run the C# binary.

    So we rewrote it in C++. Once finished, we replaced all of the C# binaries with the C++ binary. Again within moments, we had downloads and this time we have entries in the database. Goes to show the penetration of .NET.

    After about two weeks, we noticed something: The file was spreading without our help. We stopped sharing after we realized this and the file kept propagating, and propagating, and propagating. In no time flat, we wasted over 16 hours of pirate time.

    Screenshot: (Top: WTP, Bottom, ODB)

    The Next Step: Operation Dust Bunny

    The original idea we had went beyond simply logging filename and run time. We wanted to track who got what file from who. So a month after WTP, we wrote Dust Bunny. It was a two-binary system that would read the Pirate ID (PID) encoded in itself, send it to a server, then grab a unique PID returned from the server, and rewrite the ID that is encoded in the binary. Using this information, we could see who got what binary from who.

    Written with one person using Visual Studio 2003, another using Dev-C++; one binary in C++, the other in C; and only one person knowing how to code in either language. It was a challenge since the "rabbit" (the GUI program) had to include the "eye" (the program that contacted the server and rewrote the rabbit) for execution. Plus the eye needed an offset that could only be gathered once the rabbit was compiled with eye included. Thanks to TightVNC and a lot of trading of information, we got through it.

    Just to be safe, we added a "kill switch" to the eye. If the server returned a special ID number, the eye would delete the rabbit. This way, in case it got out of control as WTP did, we could stop it. Also, if someone renamed it to a filename we didn't like, we could add that filename to the "evil filename list" on the server.

    After it was completed, we replaced all the binaries with the new version. Once again, they started to be downloaded instantly. The next day, we already had redistributions -- someone downloaded a copy from someone other then us. We could tell since we were logging the PIDs. It didn't take long until we had multi-branch trees of pirates.

    We decided after one month time of sharing Dust Bunny, we'd stop and let it propagate on it's own. That marker was around March 9th, 2004.

    Current Status

    By now, WTP has racked up over 62 hours in wasted pirate time. Dust Bunny is well on its way with 20 hours. Dust Bunny has around 3,500 unique pirates and over 6,200 ex

  25. Let me take the following example by Kjella · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Say an idiot employee downloads & runs this crack/warez/whatever at work. Unauthorized and all that, but that's his ass. Now, this software is reporting home to somewhere. Let's assume the idiot's sysadmin finds out. The employee might get sacked, but who do you think will get charged with hacking (cracking) the corporation's network?

    You got it. Just the costs of verifying that it DIDN'T do anything else, didn't alter or delete any of the data on the computer, didn't transmit any of the potentially sensitive data and (if paranoid enough) rebuild the system is going to rack up to quite a bit.

    If they give them one count of hacking for each machine on their incredibly self-incriminating list, I imagine even the minimum penalties would add up to life. So I would be very worried if I was them...

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  26. Bah. by PhxBlue · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Was that an intentional part of the design? Or did you guys just overlook the ALT-F4 shortcut when you designed the program?

    --
    !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
  27. Vigilantes by CFBMoo1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Wired has one on a vigilante group that goes after perverts in chat rooms that prey apon children. As much as I admire the intent of every day people to keep things clean, decent, and honest. I also have to agree with points in this other article where law enforcement is being hampered by scaring off the bad people to go deeper underground and the problem just gets burried and not delt with completely. Next thing you know you have a problem thats 10x's worse then before since it wasn't handled properly to begin with.

    In the case of the software vigilantes. They're in for a world of legal hurt I think even though their basic intentions are good.

    --
    ~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
  28. Social Experiment? by PhxBlue · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If this was in fact a "social experiment," I have a few questions:

    • What was the thesis for the experiment? What were these guys setting out to prove?
    • How does the data they collected actually bear upon the experiment itself?
    • What is their conclusion based upon the data they've received?

    If this was a genuine social experiment, these questions have already been answered, somewhere. Otherwise, I think we can chalk this up as a prank designed to embarass people.

    --
    !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
  29. From their webpage by ottffssent · · Score: 3, Interesting


    <head>
    <title>Operation Dust Bunny: Deployment Status Page</title>
    </head>
    <body style="margin:0">
    [1]

    Offhand, I'd say today we're not tracking *anybody*...

  30. Whoa, we just Slashdotted a cablemodem!! by reality-bytes · · Score: 4, Funny

    That link http://walktheplank.ath.cx is a dynamic DNS re-router for people on Cablemodems / DSL etc.

    Ouch, I almost feel sorry for them :D

    --
    Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
  31. Rule of law by sita · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Can someone please explain to me how one is so wrong yet the other is so right?

    Vigilantilism is wrong. Period. Rule of law is characterized by a state monopoly on justice. If you don't like rule of law, there are plenty of countries where it doesn't apply.

    Or, in a language your mother would use: Two wrongs don't make one right.

  32. Trojans of trojans by maximilln · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even if we assume that these vigilantes are doing nothing morally wrong themselves at what point should they be responsible for opening a security hole in a system which can be exploited by other more malicious stalkers? Can these vigilantes show that their code is 100% secure such that only they can make use of the resources that it provides?

    Spyware and malware and P2P programs and instant messaging programs may not be malicious in and of themselves but they're all coded by half-hacks who aren't very interested in security. Do they properly check their buffer overflows, input validation, or ensure perfect alignment with a proper handshake protocol?

    I think not...

    Let's say that the law would tolerate the vigilante retrieval of stolen property. At what point is the vigilante liable for leaving the backdoor open?

    Let's say that malware and spyware and spammers really are nothing more than advertising methods used to boost the economy (which can be argued as "good"). At what point are the authors of those progams liable for the malicious attacker or stalker who relies on them to identify easy targets?

    Let's say that posting signs for your candidate on someone else's front lawn would be legal. Are you liable if a serial killer decides to pick his targets based upon lawn signs?

    Implications are more than just one step removed from the source.

    --
    +++ATHZ 99:5:80
  33. UT2k4 crack by nukem1999 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In just the past two days, Unreal Tournament 2004 keygen and cracks have become popular filenames.

    I pre-ordered the special DVD edition of UT 2k4 about 2 weeks ago. $42 and change. I get it home, pop it in a DVD drive on a different machine in the network, mount the drive on mine, and install. Try to run it? *BZZT* "Wrong disc inserted." Many people on the official forums had the same error with the game in a drive on their local machines. Crack -> piracy? No. It's been rather long established that at least a few paying customers will have problems with the cd check. I can't say about UT2k3, but in the original UT, they removed the cd check in an official patch since so many had problems.

    Although I was smart enough to get it from somewhere reputable. They could have gotten something a LOT worse than an IP tracker.

    I could have been holding the legally purchased, pressed media, wearing the free headset and finding a place for my free Atari shameless-self-promotion stickers while these people posted my IP address (or even more information, I didn't actually go to the list to see) with a pirate label. (note: On their site, the images of the popup say "don't worry your secret is safe with me", and now the list has even been /.ed. Cute.)

    Yarr indeed.

    1. Re:UT2k4 crack by WormholeFiend · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From what I read on the Atari forum threads, Epic (the game makers) is pretty much against CD checks, but Atari (the game publishers) forces them to put it in.
      -

  34. How ironic... by telstar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They purport to have a list of pirates...
    What they have is a list of people that downloaded something that most likely isn't a copyrighted work written by them (and admittedly made available freely online by themselves).

    Not only that, they're infringing on the trademarks of the software they purport to be in order to run this little experiment, and a case could also be made that they're doing damage to the name of that software by associating it with their invasive software without consent from the actual publisher of the original work.

    I'm all for protecting a product with the laws that are in place, but the laws shouldn't be taken into people's own hands with invasive and untested software.

  35. Thank G0D... by WormholeFiend · · Score: 3, Funny

    they re not using pr0n to spread their trojans...
    -

  36. Re:which crime? Probably Entrapment by maximilln · · Score: 4, Interesting

    -----
    only means that the police officer cannot pressure you to commit a crime
    -----
    Hypothetical situation: A police officer stops you in the street and demands that you stop to answer some questions. You are in a hurry and ask if he's conducting an investigation. His response is negative, he's just lonely and wants to chat. You ignore his pleas and continue on your way.

    The police officer arrests you for obstruction of justice. Additionally he uses the obstruction of justice as reason to search your person and finds a pack of cigarettes without the wrapper in your coat. He writes up an additional ticket for possession of contraband goods (cigarettes without the appropriate tax stamp).

    Note: This isn't a hypothetical situation but REALLY DID HAPPEN.

    So please, quit talking about legality. We live in a subjective police state and no lawyer really cares unless there's a potential to get rich quick.

    --
    +++ATHZ 99:5:80
  37. Its still illegal by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Informative

    However, you may loose your ability to countersue in civil court for damaages due to the intent on your part to commit a criminal transaction.

    Just like the drug dealer, he's still commiting a crime by selling, regardless of the crime you committed by purchasing..

    The Feds could also demand their logs..

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  38. Hah, this is funny. by Ketnar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can you spot the shoot-self-in-foot-notes?

    1. No data is collected by our software that isn't already collected when our software is downloaded. The only personally identifiable information that we have would be the executer's IP address. However this information is freely available at time of download and is completly public information.

    Uhm, wait, but collecting IP addys is data. And you also collect what file they were trying to download, and where/who they got it from? I'd say building a track list of a 'social' network of where a file goes and by how/whom is plenty of data.

    I'm sorry,but thats a load. Get a better legal advisor, next!

    3. We dissagree with the notion that this is a "Trojan".
    A trojan horse gains access to a system through deviant methods. Not through user initiated downloads on a P2P network. Secondly, a trojan horse by definition has a payload or attempts to give the author access by working from the inside. Our program is aboslutely dormant unless specifically and purposefully executed by the downloader. And the program is riddled with cues to what the contents might be. For instance, the company name is "C.R.A.P. Citizens Raging Against Pirates". Not what you'd expect from a "legitimate" crack or keygen.

    Okay, lets see, its not a trojan, yet its a trojan. It's not a trojan because it comes from a p2p network, and not ..what, outlook? Got it! Thanks for clearing that up!

    Okay, great idea, really, very funny! But WTF are these guys going to do with all this when, say, MS steps in with a great big legal order of doom saying 'we want to know everybody who thought they were downloading the windows source code'? Are these people even thinking that far ahead?

    And I love the broad thinking that anybody downloading a keygen is a pirate, What, these guys never lost a Cd key before? Yesh. Get a grip kids.

    Points for some very crative programing, but they lost points for not finding something better to do and not thinking ahead a few more feet of them.

    --
    My new top secret key -> C>N|KB
  39. Re:Get what you deserve by Walkiry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Um no it isn't. You don't download keygens and full copies of programs off P2P to "tune up" your software. You do that to pirate it, to violate the rights of the producer and to be a little prick.

    Woah, way to go Mr. Assumptions. Why exactly can't I just rip out the CD protection code off the program I paid for? It's far more convenient for me to just install the whole thing in my 120 Gb hard drive, stash the box with the CDs safely and be on my merry way. I don't have to throw a tantrum, call the software company 100 times and make a revolution to change the system so that programs come without CD protection. I can simply spend 5 minutes downloading a tool and getting rid of it. Or I can put the keygen with the game in the hard drive so that I don't even have to worry where the manual or the box will end up.

    What you're presenting here is a fallacy known as the False Dichotomy. The world is not "either you get the crack to pirate the program or you return it if you don't like the CD protection". After I paid for that software I'll modify it as I see fit to make it more convenient for me to use it, be it cracking the CD protection, installing 100 zillion mods or even cheating the crap out of it so that I can headshot the bots every time I want to. And I'll be damned if I let anyone tell me what I can or cannot do in my computer with the software I paid for.

    --
    ---- Take the Space Quiz!
  40. Felonies vs. civil offenses by FreeUser · · Score: 4, Informative

    I don't stand up for it installing spyware, but if it just pops up a message with a black pirate flag and says you have been logged...the only thing that is harmed is the privacy of a criminal.
    If they start using this information for blackmail...that is illegal!


    No, unauthorized modification of a computer is a crime, in both the UK and the US (and probably most other developed nations' jurisdictions).

    What we have here are felons (system crackers planting trojans on people's PCs) who are compromising the privacy of individuals who have committed civil offenses (copyright violations). The seriousness of the former crime is much greater than the seriousness of the crimes of their victims.

    That having been said, the FBI has protected murderers who were on their payroll (including sending an innocent man to jail for the murder committed by one of their informants), who turned evidence against people guilty of far less. So the alluded to by others remains: given the current political climate the feds are likely to overlook the felonies being committed in the interest of persuing the civil offenses being committed against their primary constituency, namely the copyright cartels.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  41. Last night on Slashdot IRC by bonch · · Score: 4, Funny

    <CmdrTaco> CD sales went up in Australia
    <Hemos> cool lets get an article up
    <Hemos> we'll call it "File-Sharing Increases CD Sales"
    <CmdrTaco> lol
    <Hemos> seriously. file-sharing is good. distributing someone's intellectual property is good
    <CmdrTaco> hey, did we ever get dailyslash shut down?
    <Hemos> not yet. you know some people actually think we have a double-standard for declaring them illegal?
    <CmdrTaco> rofl
    <CowboyNeal> hey guys
    <CmdrTaco> hey
    <Hemos> hi
    <CowboyNeal> some guys ar posting information on pirates
    <CmdrTaco> fuckers
    <Hemos> yeah, nobody should post information on people breaking the law
    <CmdrTaco> dude nobody's breaking the law
    <CmdrTaco> they're INCREASING CD SALES
    <Hemos> oh yeah
    <CowboyNeal> i'll get an article up and call them "vigilantes"
    <CmdrTaco> lol
    <Hemos> that'll get the discussions going...more page hits
    <CowboyNeal> ya
    <CmdrTaco> it sucks that people can't participate in the mp3 culture movement by illegally distributing other people's product
    <Hemos> i know
    <Hemos> hmm
    <CowboyNeal> ?
    <Hemos> isn't that a contradiction, since we expect everybody to follow the licensing restrictions of a GPL.TXT file and raise a piss if they don't?
    <CmdrTaco> rofl
    <CowboyNeal> haha
    <CmdrTaco> yeah expect everyone to follow the GPL...
    <Hemos> ya, i know..oh well, nobody said we were perfect
    <CmdrTaco> whatever gets page hits
    <michael> i'm perfect
    <CmdrTaco> you scare me