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'Civilization on Mars' Claims Debunked
StarEmperor writes "Bad Astronomy's Phil Plait has finally taken some time to
debunk conspiracy theorist Richard Hoagland's claims about life on Mars. There's also a CNN story about this here."
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Russians found liquid water on Mars!
http://www.libo.ru
Iraq: war to save the U
This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public. People when presented with the most superficial of data will adopt as truth the most extreme or absurd of claims with no critical assessment. This sort of blind trust allows folks to be taken in by claims of better health through unproven herbal supplements or claims of penile enlargments. On more serious notes, the lack of critical thinking among some has led to political and international policy that threatens to influence the state of world affairs.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Daffy Duck told me Marvin the Martian was there and was going to destroy the earth! Don't tell me television has been lying to me all these years.
Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some pimpin in it
Oh come on, laugh. It's silly AND funny!
More seriously, why is it that the US seems to get more than its fair share of crackpots like this guy? Is it just because they're more able to make themselves heard (high tech, relatively rich society), or is it [tin hat] something more sinister [/tin hat] ? Perhaps it just seems that way from over here in the UK (officially the worlds least-likely to believe the walking-on-water and rising-from-the-dead thing - can't find the link though it was a bbc report recently), but there seem to be more potential tin-hatters from across the pond than just about anywhere else, even if you take into account the population differences (the US is less than 5x the UK...)
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
WTF? So now Total Recall is all fake too? There's 2 hours of 'science learning' I'll never get back.
Why bother debunking something so stupid? Just gives the conspiracy theorists more to talk about.
Also, anyone capable of rational thought would not believe such garbage in the first place. Anyone stupid enough to believe something that stupid isn't worth correcting.
Can I take off my tinfoil hat now? It's kind of itchy. And hot.
Oh.. you mean you are talking about the real planet Mars?
Hey, that's my password you are typing
...ie, if they find bacteria of some sort, many people will be even *more* confused, since "Life On Mars" claims have already been "debunked".
I guess it's a fact of modern life that conspiracy theorists like Mr. Hoagland make discerning fact from fiction more difficult... thankfully, Phil Plait has been on the case, and doing a great job.
libertarianswag.com
Actually, the claims aren't really debunked, instead, Plait attacks Hoaglands credibility.
Oh, and this article is old, there's already a rebuttal over at Enterprisemission
And in other news, NASA's Mission to the Giant Turtle has been canceled.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
From the linked site:
A few days later, the Opportunity rover left its lander and started roving across Mars. In images returned after that, it looked like Opportunity had run over the "bunny"! Worse, Opportunity had made a little side excursion while moving, making it look like NASA had run over the object on purpose. Was NASA trying to cover up the existence of an alien?
No, they were trying to hide evidence of the Easter Bunny! Conspiracy!
They at least could have waited until after Easter. Bastards.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
I'm glad this made the front page. Phil Plait is a force for Good...or at least Sense, and deserves all the recognition he can get.
If you're going to pound his server, at least click through his advertisers and think about buying his book, huh?
-Carolyn
Like Daddy always said: if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.
Plait: What happen?
....
Mechanic: Someone blow up us the Beagle!
Plait: What!
Operator: Main screen turn on!
Plait: It's you!!
Hoagland: How are you gentlemen!!
Hoagland: All your mars rover are belong to aliens
Hoagland: You are on the way to destruction
Plait: What you say?
Hoagland: You have no chance to explore mars junk
Hoagland: Ha ha ha
Operator: Dr. Plait!!
Captain: Take off every 'Beagle'!!
Captain: Move 'Beagle'.
Captain: For great justice.
Ok... I know it sucks... but laugh. You knew it was coming. At least it wasnt goatse!
Phil Plait should be given some award for his work in debunking bullshit.
What suitable options are there?
World's Best Debunker t-shirt?
Hoagland has some wild theories based on the flimsiest of evidence and even doctored photographs (introducing symmetry where none existed for example). He's a guy who just can't let go of his pet theories in the face of mounting evidence refuting them.
What really gets me annoyed with this guy though is when he starts criticizing NASA & accusing them of dishonesty & coverup when the data don't match his preposterous theories. Half the time it's his own technical ignorance that's the problem.
The guy just doesn't understand that we'd all like to find evidence of life on Mars, bipedal walking around life most of all, but we can't let that cloud our judgement.
If mankind ever does find evidence of life on Mars it'll be no thanks to fools like Hoagland, although I'm sure he'll be the first to say "I told you so".
Claims on the basis of the most tennuous of evidence and outlandish conjecture are worse than useless.
If any of you tinfoil hatters are interested... (via anomalist.com)
....
....
... now 25 years old.
... such as Plait and Greenberg.
... and a lesser tidal input maintaining a current possible "liquid ocean for Europa."
I found it hilarious that the photo link Hoagland provides at the end goes to a page with a caption that mentions him as an "unidentified guest".
http://www.enterprisemission.com/response.htm
Email Exchange From Rob Roy Britt of Space.com
And Richard C. Hoagland on the Plait\Greenberg Allegations
In a message dated 3/12/2004 3:14:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, rbritt@HQ.SPACE.com writes:
Hi Richard:
I will be going into some of these issues. Your serious criticism of NASA
requires that I discuss your credentials as well. I just spoke with Ralph
Greenberg, who has analyzed some of your biographical claims that on your
web site. I've read them too, and indeed your web site clearly says that you
claim to have been the first to propose the Europa ideas. If you'd like to
respond to Greenberg's comments, feel free to e-mail me back.
Rob
Here is what Greenberg said to me:
"It's clear that [Hoagland] deserves no credit for proposing an ocean under
the ice on Europa." And regarding the notion of life: "Others before him
wrote on the same topic with more merit."
Greenberg says Hoagland deserves some credit for helping to popularize the
Europa ideas. But he is bothered that Hoagland does not make an effort to
clear the record.
"He never made it quite clear that this was not his original idea in any
sense," Greenberg said. "I think it's really shameful that he hasn't been
willing to make it crystal clear."
Rob,
OK, here's the real story behind Plait's current accusations
Greenberg is the source. It is his long-standing "Hoagland obsession" -- which has been going on for years, and can be characterized as nothing less -- that is a clear example of how far certain people are willing to go to smear our reputation and our work. This is a classic case of what I pointed out a couple days ago, about these baseless accusations being fundamentally "political"
I would hope, as a good reporter, you would prefer to rely on "primary sources" for your story -- as opposed to merely "hearsay" from third parties -- certainly third parties with an obvious political agenda. I would therefore strongly recommend that you begin by actually reading my original 1980 article, "The Europa Enigma" (on the Enterprise website -- http://www.enterprisemission.com/europa.html) -- which appeared in the January, 1980 issue of Star & Sky Magazine
In the entire article -- at no time -- do I take undue credit for the original idea of a potential ocean under Europa's icy surface. That is a skillfully spun fiction -- created specifically by our less than honest critics
What I actually do in this extensive paper is clearly credit Cassen, Peale and Reynolds -- who originated and published in Science Magazine the first tidal model for internal Jovian satellite heating, just before Voyager 1 arrived at Jupiter in early 1979. I clearly credit their original calculations regarding the possibility of tidal heating of Io
But, I also carefully cite their strong caveat (in the then just-published Science tidal paper) that, depending on certain "incalculable factors," such an originally liquid Europan ocean could have frozen solid in the 4.5 billion years of subsequent solar system history.
In other words, in their published model, there was a more than even chance that Europa's ocean now was no longer liquid -- but had become a 100 miles-deep glacier of solid ice! And, if this was the case, if such an original Europan ocean had ever frozen solid, their own tidal calculations in Science clearly stated it could never be unfrozen!
This is where the dishonest critics have carefully,
You know, for the longest time I thought Hoagland's website was a joke - kind of like Villain Supply. I didn't think he actually took it seriously. He really does seem to believe what he writes, enough to go onto the radio.
It's really quite sad.
The guy just doesn't understand that we'd all like to find evidence of life on Mars, bipedal walking around life most of all, but we can't let that cloud our judgement.
On the contrary-- I think he understands this fact very well. I think people want there to be life in space, especially close to home. Hoaglad feeds off of this, and uses it to his advantage. And he makes money in doing so... I would be very surprised if he honestly believed his own crazy ideas. People believe because they want to, not because there is any substantial evidence...
[FromTheMorning]
I had no idea Space Ghost has that many followers... must be the Martians watching Adult Swim via satellite...
Check out the best P2P sharing website: MEDIACHEST.COM
While I agree with your assessment on the state of public education, for the Hoagland's of the world this is not about science, this is about religion. These extraterrestrials amongst us believers need to live a world with an external purpose and reason for being. They will never get that from science and feel conventional religions are beneath them or just too unbelievable. For these folks its not just about extraterrestrial life, which rational science types like me find totally plausible, it's the whole they live amongst us, they are so much more advanced, they created us and have a purpose for us (that is only reveled to the occasional abducted prophets), and they have given us all the technological advances since WWII. This is a new-age religion that had nothing to do with science education.
People like this nutcase must be debunked for the damage they do to serious astronomy. By allowing this kind of infestation to manifest just because you know how ridiculous it is you end up giving credibility simply by way of not having debunked it. Much as eco-terrorists like ELF and ALF damage the environmental cause, people like this guy (not saying he's a terrorist) damage the credibility of things like SETI.
Think how many people now believe in crap like Roswell and little green men. Now think how people like this make it hard for the public to take this science seriously. The idiot wants pr, but by not giving him the smackdown he so desperately needs, they'll get unearned credibility instead. The lack of pr will of course just be proof of a conspiracy against them.
Just think, to believe this guy you'd have to accept that we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars just on this one one mission to look for signs of life and that we would then turn around and ignore it when we found it. Too bad they don't teach logic in schools anymore.
Hmm, not a juvie, but... I thought step i was "collect underpants"...? :-)
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
"This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public."
Not just science ed, but the basic skill of critical thinking. I can't speak for how things are going in the rest of the world, but here in the US it's gotten particularly sad. People as a whole just don't seem able or willing to be bothered by thinking for themselves.
Seems to me that many moons ago, even those who lacked formal higher education could be counted on to have "horse sense" - the simple ability to call "Shenanigans" when faced with something fishy, and run the snake oil salesman out of town.
These days it seems everyone's simply lining up for snake oil subscriptions. What's up? Too much "Reality" TV? Sure folks have always been duped, but damn it seems like a national pastime these days.
...Hoagland IS very interesting to listen to. I'll give him that much. I don't believe most of what he says, but you know what they say, even a blind dog will find a bone every once in a while.
It is entertaining listening to him go on Coast to Coast AM, though.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
If I'm driving around at night, I try to listen. Actually, they're not all crazy. Once I heard the physicist Micio Kaku on there, and that was a pretty cool interview.
Komi
The ultimate goal of science is to unify all forces of nature to a single law that can be silk-screened onto a T-shirt.
...You see this Slashdot headline and the first thing you think of is a new Sid Meier game.
This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public. People when presented with the most superficial of data will adopt as truth the most extreme or absurd of claims with no critical assessment.
I don't think it's a question of science education. Just look at how easy it was for this guy to pull the wool over the eyes of most of the solid state physics community. Science is full of dogma, unfounded beliefs, lack of proof, unstated assumptions, errors, etc. And science education usually does no more to address these problems than other academic disciplines.
Most people are gullible and don't think critically, whether they are scientists or not. The education system could help with that. But teaching critical thinking isn't tied to any particular subject: you can teach critical thinking in subjects like literature, history, philosophy, economics, or even physical education. All of those have assumptions that can be challenged and problems people can think through for themselves.
Science, if anything, is probably a bad subject to teach critical thinking because there is so much complexity to be mastered before you can even start thinking for yourself. Students can reasonably discuss different approaches to historical analysis without years of education because they can relate to it; students cannot meaningfully discuss the foundations of quantum mechanics or the meaning of general relativity or the possibility of the existence of life on other planets because that takes an enormous background of scientific knowledge and skills.
Giving this guy attention, in fact, lends credence to his claims.
...
I remember when I scored my first writing job. My uncle, who is a successful journalist, tried to give me some good advice.
He asked, "What's the first job of a reporter?"
"To tell the story as accurately as possible?"
"No," he said. "The first job of a reporter is to create controversy."
Controversy, he explained, sells the news, engages readers, sparks conversation, and leads to follow-ups. Oh, and it sells the news.
So if you throw this nincompoop on "Coast to Coast", with 10 million readers, and you give him a voice, even if you do take shots at him, does this really count as "debunking" given the massive exposure he received?
I think it only counts as idiocy. Come on. The guy points at pictures of geological features and calls them faces. In a Communist society he'd be locked up and his family would be shamed. In America he's used to boost advertising rates.
Not that that's a criticism, mind you. I think we're all guilty of nuttiness here and there, so thank God we can be used to boost advertising rates
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
you'd love an intro polysci class.
yes and no; born-again evangelican christians (also known as religio-loonies) are apt to fervently disagree with something just on the basis that it was said by a "scientist". Eg, Scientist: "global warming could potentially have a negative effect on the world's ecosystem and agribusinesses." Christian nut: "...another liberal lie, god bless Texaco!"
People tend to trust and believe things said by persons they identify with. People on slashdot are probably more likely (as a group) to identify with "scientist"s than are say, people in a baptist church in dixieland. Just like people in that church would be more likely to agree with their minister that "the plight of coconut harvesters in equatorial guinea has got to STOP!" based on who said it than say, a crowd of random people on the street. (don't read too much into these example... as far as I know there are no coconuts in Eq Guinea).
It's just an information processing shortcut.
Oh come on, don't pretent you hold up every single assertion to a microscope. We all take this shortcut. Some of us just have better bs detectors. Also happenstance is everpresent (some people call this luck).
PS: I am not denying the existence of stupidity, or of stupid people. I also don't think I am shocking parent's author with blinding wisdom. Just sayin'.
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
...has been cancelled due to unknown forces trying to keep the truth hidden from the people.
Still better than 'Fox News' though...
There was an interesting article in Discover magazine several years ago about why humans always think they see faces in random patterns (such as the Martian surface, or the smoke rising out of the World Trade Center ruins).
Basically, our brain is hard-wired to quickly recognize human faces. This is for survival purposes, of course. But when you stare at these non-human shapes - such as the Martian rock - it is obvious these are NOT faces. The brows are wrong, the nose is fitting only for Michael Jackson, and the mouth is horribly formed.
I'm extremely disapointed in the reactions here. The space.com article was clearly a character assasination of Hoagland. RCH doesn't expect you do believe every rock on his website, but if you have an open mind then you can see that some of the stuff he points out is quite strange indeed. All that RCH advocates is that some of these things be investigated instead of being ignored, or covered up by NASA.
The picture of the fossil featured on RCH's site recently is one of the most incredible pictures I've ever seen. And guess what, NASA refuses to talk about it and they ground the damn thing into dust!!!.
Is that what we expect from our tax dollars? We send an $800 million mission to mars to see if there used to be water there? We KNOW that there is water up there NOW already!
The problem with these so-called 'debunkers' is that they don't look at things objectively with an open mind, they already have their mind made up before they start. They then use disinformation and character assassination.
If Plait is so righteous, why does he refuse to debate RCH on the facts? Who is the real scientist and who is persuing the truth. Wait and see.
Hoagland regularly appears on Coast to Coast AM, an overnight syndicated talk show with something like 12 million listeners.
They get the listeners to email NASA demanding ridiculous things. Another poster pointed out that they got a Mars probe to drop other important work to take more photos of the "face on mars."
When NASA did it, Hoagland went on the radio and accused NASA of faking the photos to hide the evidence. He's a classic delusional type, who sees any evidence that proves him wrong as proof that there's a conspiracy.
A lot of the problem is the radio show, which is irresponsible, in my view. During the whole Y2K scare, one of the hosts hyped the hell out of it, and sold people overpriced bunker food on the side.
I understand the appeal of the show, and I enjoy that sort of thing myself. The argument for it is that it's sort of like pro wrestling -- it's just a show, everyone knows it's just a show, and the few people who don't just make the whole thing that much more entertaining. I can buy all of that.
The problem comes when these guys start scaring people and exploiting them (with the bunker food), or when they create real problems for NASA. NASA has enough troubles now, they don't need this crap.
I'm *NOT* calling for any kind of government action, or any sort of censorship. I don't support what's happening to Howard Stern, and I wouldn't support anyone hassling Coast to Coast AM.
I do think it's appropriate for other people to wake up to how many listeners these guys have, and to try to keep them relavtively honest. These sorts of articles are a great start.
The photos aren't real. According to some authorities in the know, the pictures were genrated using Pixar which is based on alein technology found at Roswell. But, if you look closely at the photos, you will see definite proof of the exitence of alien moonbases. This proves that aliens exist and inhabit the Moon and Mars.
Un-news
the cooks will still believe what they want to believe
Thawing meat in the microwave, using crappy store-bought herbs.. Theres no reasoning with some of those guys!
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
What? You mean a mention on Slashdot isn't award enough?
Putting the "anal" back into "analyst"...
Hoagland is a con-artist who got lucky a long time ago and decided to parlay his scant credibility into an industry built on duping clueless dreamers out of their money. He's the Wade Cook of science.
Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
Isaac Asimov once wrote:
quote:"For one thing Velikfovskianism, and indeed, any exoheretical view that becomes prominent enough to force itself on science, acts to puncture scientific complacency-and that is good. An exoheresy may cause scientists to bestir themselves for the purpose of reexamining the bases of their beliefs, even if only to gather firm and logical reasons for the rejection of the exoheresy-and that is good too. An exoheresy may cause scientific activity which, in a serendipitous fashion, may uncover something worthwhile that has nothing to do with the exoheresy-and that is very good, if it happens."
"I'm extremely disapointed in the reactions here. The space.com article was clearly a character assasination of Hoagland."
Nice to see you joining us on Slashdot, Mr. Hoagland. Now go away.
You should have heard the show last night. Two guys were on saying that 97% of population is going to die this year. We need to build underground bunkers, buy their books & videotapes etc.
Well they were on last month saying the same thing, and the purpose of last night's (this morning actually) show was that the fellow who has had these visions supposedly met with Sister Lucia, the Carmelite nun who is the last surviving witness to the Fatima miracles.
The fellow said he met with the nun for 5 minutes, but wouldn't tell us what she said because it was personal! George told him he would not allow him and his audience to be exploited in this manner and cut off both guests in the middle of the show! I think it showed a tremendous amount of integrity.
Guests on c2c do not get paid so in general they are allowed to plug their website or book but they cannot use it to scam people. The topics on the show are not presented as the only objective truth but rather many different viewpoints that a person can listen to, be entertained, and make up their own mind.
Sometimes I find art gets a little over his head with highly scientific or technological discussions, which is funny because hes a genius radio engineer. He hosts the show, runs the board, reads the commercials, takes the calls, all from his trailer in the middle of the Nevada desert and all by himself! How many of you could do that? He has never allowed himself to be influenced by the suits, and how many DJs distributed by ClearChannel can you say that about?
The show covers a wide range of topics. Many of the topics are not and will not be covered by any other major media. I think it is a valuable service and certainly entertaining. I think both George and Art though, make it abundantly clear that the rule of caveat emptor always applies.
...why in earth would NASA want to cover up such a thing?
If you enjoy his web site and the service he provides to the public buy his book, Bad Astronomy.
The link to his book on Amazon can be found here
He covers a wide range of misconceptions, myths and outright falsehoods about astronomy and associated topics. My favorite topic he covers is the "Apollo Moon Landing Hoax". He gives the subject an excellent treatment.
Let me say that I know he is wrong. I listen to him on Coast to Coast as entertainment, nothing more.
What I am asking is how would we, being the human race as a whole, react if this guy really had something? Every time I listen I can't help believe that he has one really good point. People would flip if there really was intelligent life other then on Earth.
How does the Slashdot community feel about this?
Great people don't need people to complete them, great people complete other people. -- Matthew Pawlikowski.
Since the limitation of Unicode is up to 1 million characters, won't we run into problems with Unicode once all alien character sets are added to it? ;P
Un-news
If they find solid H2O on Mars I wonder what we will find in Uranus?
When the better images came back from the newer probes, I was like, "Oh well..." That's how science works. One "experiment" (the Viking images) suggested something unusual, so the experiment was repeated with greater care (better resolution), and showed the original conclusion was in error. End of story. Time to move on.
Do you ever read his site? I visit Hoagland's site regularly because it's entertaining, and when he was just looking for patterns in rocks, it was pretty harmless.
However, seeing artifacts in images and what he's doing these days are two different things. He's either off the deep end, or it's just a was to sell books and get paid for speaking appearances.
Hoagland has NASA timing launches based on astrology. He saw secret coded messages in the year display when the ball dropped on Times Square for the year 2000. He has end of the world scenarios involving (OK, all together now) the MASONS.
Fossil: I don't understand why people see a nefarious plot in the grinding of the "fossil". It isn't like they need to destroy the evidence. Hoagland or one of his followers aren't about to pop up to Mars and grab it. And, actually, grinding it down to look at the cross section is a good idea, and the "after" picutre shows no structure, or even anything to differentiate it from the rest of the rock.
Water: The probes were sent to find evidence that Mars had ABUNDANT water in the PAST, as in lakes and even seas. This has benn clearly stated from day one, so your complaint is deliberate obfuscation.
--- Ban humanity.
"If Plait is so righteous, why does he refuse to debate RCH on the facts? Who is the real scientist and who is persuing the truth. Wait and see."
Plait HAS offered to debate RCH, it's just the RCH refuses to agree on a list of topics, so as to avoid Plait getting dragged into a Tinfoil Hat 'Fest of RCH screaming, "Prove that I'm NOT right!"
And it has an unintended benefit, actually. Don't you realize that by getting so many people to argue these silly facts, the producers of the show have inadvertently, as a side effect, caused many people to believe in logic and the scientific method?
My favorite theme on the show, by the way, was Bottomless Holes.
God bless the chupacabras, the inventors of perpetual motion machines and engines that run on water. Give thanks to the guys that walk the streets dressed as Killer Bees. They make life a bit more interesting.
The 'fossil' does have a segmented look to it, making it resemble any of a variety of invertebrates. But note the peculiar concavity whose entrance the 'fossil' is wrapped around. If it is a fossil, there's no good explanation why it happens to be associated with that hole. But from a geological point of view, it's easy to explain. The concavity was originally a crystal of some water-soluble variety, probably a salt. Water dissolved the crystal, and some of the water bearing the dissolved salt chemically modified the rock immediately surrounding the hole, forming the 'fossil'.
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
What's really disgusting is the way the media is cynically exploiting these beliefs. But I view that as just another symptom of the "1000 channels and nothing's on" syndrome. Which is a result of so much media being controlled by so few companies, so that real creativity or insight has no chance in the mass media. Crap is easy to produce and has a high profit margin, so that's what the media monopolies give us. That's of a lot more immediate importance that any silly arguments over the Mars Face.
This was proven almost 3 years ago. And the terrain on Mars isn't exactly flat, either.
Did you check what NASA did to "prove" their point? Those pictures where manipulated with the high altitude filer to give the appearance that the Face is just a natural object. Earlier photographs showed something entirely different.
a /proof_files/proof.asp
Check another proof on this matter at: http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydoni
IP was invented for the sake of lawsuits.
Dude, the "glass worm" explains everything. Now we know where all that water that used to be on Mars went: little makers keeping it deep inside the planet. And, we know why Mars is red: all that spice. All praise Shai'Hulud! Death to the non-believers!
Now I feel all pseudo-sciencey.
Excellent site. If you poke around, you can find that there's a happy moose on Mars!
Oh, please.... This is not about lighting angle. Look, the pictures you present as proof has been photoshopped. That's not image reduction. The nose isn't even in the right place. If you want to do some real data reduction, you need to do like a friend of mine did: Get the raw data, have a beer, and hack a few scripts. this is the result.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Everyone knows all the Marsian water was used to produce Russian vodka. Russians found vodka on Mars, now that's more like it.
You can't handle the truth.