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Delta 2 Rocket Launches 50th GPS Satellite

wetshoe writes "This CNN article reports that 'the 50th U.S. Global Positioning Satellite has lifted off aboard a Boeing Delta 2 rocket.' It was sent into space to replace an aging GPS satellite. One more reason why geocaching is so much fun."

188 comments

  1. Geocaching by rkz · · Score: 5, Interesting
    My enjoyment everyday comes in the form of looking forward to the weekend when I spend my free time geocaching with my friends or myself.

    Its just you (and maybe some friends), no real pressure. Plus its an actual trek (ranges from in-city, to some caches are ones that need Scuba or moutain gear or whatever).

    And with geocaching you've just got your GPS, a compass, and maybe a topographic map (if you can get one). None of this fancy cell phones with internet to tell you answers stuff ;-)

    1. Re:Geocaching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find it funny that someone carrying a GPS would decry a cell phone user getting answers. How about dropping the GPS and using a compass and topo map ONLY?

    2. Re:Geocaching by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      None of this fancy cell phones with internet to tell you answers stuff ;-)

      i wonder what the "treckers" of yesterday would say about your "fancy GPS handheld magellan with programmable direction stuff".

      gotta love geocaching though.... i went once or twice in San Felipe (BC Mexico) and we got to the spot and it matched the description from the webpage exactly, and we looked under the pile of rocks where it told us would be the "prize" and nothing was there. I guess whoever got there before us didn't replace the prize.
      This calls for a poll...
      Ever been Geocaching?

      no, too lazy.
      no, haven't got around to it yet.
      Once or twice..
      Every weekend!

    3. Re:Geocaching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Yeah well how about using wget and posting on slashdot like a real man.

    4. Re:Geocaching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's the "I had no clue what the hell Geocaching was prior to seeing this article" option?

      Here's a new GPS idea for you: Have a blind surgeon perform an operation on a patient using only a talking GPS receiver. Challenge yourself. Finding bottles in a 15 feet radius is sort of lame. There is no human element involved. The receiver does everything for you.

      I hope you guys don't call yourselves geeks.

    5. Re:Geocaching by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 2, Funny

      I hope you guys don't call yourselves geeks.

      what? if there is any one appropriate physical activity appropriate for geeks, it is geocaching.

    6. Re:Geocaching by Staos · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Have you ever been caching? GPSrs are not nearly that accurate. In a wooded area, there can be as much as a 150 foot error. Add that to tricky hides and rough terrain, it's not as simple as you think.

      --
      In Soviet russia, only old Koreans profit from pictures of Natalie Portman stored on Beowulf Clusters.
    7. Re:Geocaching by jridley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Obviously you've not been caching. FIrst off, GPS isn't accurate to within 15 feet when you're in the woods. Also, nobody puts the caches in plain sight. I've been to caches where me and my kids walked around a 50 foot diameter circle for 30 minutes before finding the cache, to find out we'd walked right past it dozens of times. Many times it'll be a camoflaged ammo box half buried with twigs and leaves over it.

    8. Re:Geocaching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the GPS satellites make geocaching *possible*?

      No. It's possible without GPS too.

    9. Re:Geocaching by Pottsynz · · Score: 1

      Make sure you come to my country (New Zealand) one day and try it. Heaps of caches, and the land is built for trekking :)

    10. Re:Geocaching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, with one of the DeLorme Atlas books (1:150,000 maps). But what would really be fun is identifying old 1:7500 USGS maps that haven't been updated in quite some time that have obviously had some growth and development in their area, as well as no "helper" GPS grid coords on them.

      Nothing like getting a coordinate to go to that the map says has a nice road to, only to find that it doesn't exist, or even better, that the open area the map shows is now a housing development...

    11. Re:Geocaching by stiggle · · Score: 2, Informative

      As someone who helps out with the local Mountain Rescue group - one of the biggest problems they now have is people going out without proper maps and compasses and only their GPS.
      They then phone (cell phone) for rescue cause their GPS batteries are flat and they haven't a clue where they are.

    12. Re:Geocaching by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      While not news to me, as I've heard of peolpe doing this, I can't help but laugh out loud at the sheer stupidity. HEhehehehe.

    13. Re:Geocaching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I go whenever my life/wife allows - The most fun I have ever had with my clothes on!

    14. Re:Geocaching by code_monkey_steve · · Score: 1

      'Caching isn't that simple. Even with GPS, compass, map, cell-phone, .11g, night-vision, and towel (you do have your towel, right?), you can still spend hours bush-whacking, rooting around in stumps, peering under rocks, etc.

      In the end, the gear will only get within a hundred feet or so. After that, it's a battle of wits between you and the bastard that hid it.

    15. Re:Geocaching by Merk · · Score: 1

      Hmm... where's the "no, it's stupid" option?

  2. Re:TinFoil by fm6 · · Score: 2, Funny

    The launches you should worry about are the launches they don't announce! But I guess it's no fun being paranoid if you can't point to actual new items that "justify" your paranoia!

  3. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  4. Re:TinFoil by hot_Karls_bad_cavern · · Score: 2, Funny

    No, i wonder about the one's we do know about...much easier to sneak a toy or two into space. ;-)

    damn, this foil is itchy.

  5. No info on satellite by doormat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Doesnt say if this is capable of GPS-2 or whatever its called. As someone who uses GPS to manage infrastructure, I'd like to see some more precise GPS without having to spend $20,000 on Trimble or Leica equipment.

    --
    The Doormat

    If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
    1. Re:No info on satellite by Ageless+Stranger · · Score: 5, Informative

      Uh, No. SA has been turned off since the Clinton administration and hasn't been turned back on. Ten feet or so is the best accuracy you're going to get without using differential gps.

    2. Re:No info on satellite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe it wasnt a GPS satellite ? sounds like the perfect cover "oh dont worry its just some odd GPS sat we had hanging around"

    3. Re:No info on satellite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'd like to see some more precise GPS without having to spend $20,000 on Trimble or Leica equipment.

      There's always Ashtech.

      Oh, you mean you don't want to spend the 20K. You can get a Z-survayer for under 10K. :-)

    4. Re:No info on satellite by rehannan · · Score: 1
      Professional Surveyor Magazine ran a decent article a month ago explaining the modernization of the GPS constellation.

      They claim that Block IIR-M (which includes the first of two new civilian signals) satellites will be launched in 2004, so this may very well be one of those. Block IIF (includes the second new civilian signal with a much higher power) won't be launched until 2006.

  6. Re:TinFoil by fm6 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Have you ever thought that conspiracy theories are a conspiracy to make you buy tin foil? I'd worry about why it itches!

  7. space junk? by bbowers · · Score: 1, Informative

    Seems to be getting more and more cluttered up there... even though the old ones come down eventually. Why not set them for a collision course with the sun?? Incinerate them for less space junk floating around out there, seems like a logical solution. Kinda like what mars is gonna be like in 10 years... dead rovers all over.. haha

    --
    Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
    1. Re:space junk? by daraf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm not sure how much fuel is required to break orbit and send a satellite to the sun, but I'm pretty sure that an old GPS I satellite doesn't have it. It's easier just to slow the satellite down a bit so it burns up in the atmosphere as it falls to earth, which is what they do. Every US Air Force satellite that goes up nowadays has some sort of end-of-life plan.

    2. Re:space junk? by nautical9 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Personally, I've never understood the folks who are worried about space junk/clutter. Consider:
      • it's three dimensional space (different sat's orbit at different altitudes)
      • the imaginary "surface area" for any given orbital altitude is much larger than that of the Earth (and the Earth is really incredibly large, especially when you include the 70% that's the oceans, and the fact a typical satellite or other "space junk" is smaller than a yugo).
      • that all sats' orbits will decay over time, either inward or outward (and really, any sat with a normal decay rate typically won't be around longer than 10 years, sometimes all it takes is a few days or weeks if they can intentionally alter its speed). It's actually quite hard (ie. takes a lot of small course corrections) to keep a sat in perfect orbit.
      • that it's really expensive to put stuff up there, so as a result there really isn't that much physical man-made junk currently in orbit.
      When you visit a site that tracks the orbits of various satellites, it can appear to a layman that there's a whole bunch of stuff up there, but that's usually because each sat is shown as a big blinking dot over a tiny map of the earth. If viewed to scale, of course that dot wouldn't be visible until you zoomed the map in to where you could see cars on the street.

      The only problem is that the space junk can be traveling a few hundred mph relative to each other, so it can make for some pretty spectacular collisions should it ever happen (and its been speculated that certain impressions and chips in the Hubble, for example, were caused by "paint chips", although I'd speculate it's just comet dust or other natural space debris).

      But really, the odds of two bigger-than-a-breadbox man-made objects colliding in orbit has to be astronomically small (forgive the pun). I just don't get what the big fuss is about.

    3. Re:space junk? by scheme · · Score: 2, Informative
      The only problem is that the space junk can be traveling a few hundred mph relative to each other, so it can make for some pretty spectacular collisions should it ever happen (and its been speculated that certain impressions and chips in the Hubble, for example, were caused by "paint chips", although I'd speculate it's just comet dust or other natural space debris).

      The problem isn't the big stuff, it's the small things. Taking your example of collisons, suppose you have a small piece of metal colliding with a satellite. If the relative velocities are large enough, you get a nice spray of particles from the collision. Now each of the particles is potentially dangerous if it's of a fair size (paint chip size) and it's relative velocity is great enough.

      Although there is a lot of space up there, there aren't as many useful orbits. Take for example geostationary orbits. There's a small band where you can park satellites to get this orbit. Of course that is where debris is most likely to be since the satellites are the ones presumably generating the junk through a variety of ways (shedding material, collisions, etc).

      --
      "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
    4. Re:space junk? by jridley · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why not set them for a collision course with the sun?

      Obviously spoken by a person with a firm grasp of orbital mechanics and orbital energy levels.

    5. Re:space junk? by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

      End-of-life plan yes. But if the satellite is part of a constellation (related group of satellites) and not in low Earth orbit (GPS is in semi-synchronous, in the middle) the typical plan is to raise their orbit at the end of life, not to lower them. This is for 2 reasons: (1) the satellite does not have enough fuel to bring it down to Earth in our lifetimes and (2) by being above the orbits, they are less likely to interfere with the constellation.

      --
      Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
    6. Re:space junk? by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

      Odds of a launched rocket running into an object in space are small, but not what I would consider astronomically small. Given several thousand objects in space, the odds of one item hitting another become very realistic, especially over time.

      --
      Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
    7. Re:space junk? by afidel · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are WAY off.

      But in reality, space does not clear after an explosion near our planet. The fragments continue circling the Earth, their orbits crossing those of other objects. Paint chips, lost bolts, pieces of exploded rockets--all have already become tiny satellites, traveling at about 27,000 kilometers per hour, 10 times faster than a high-powered rifle bullet. A marble traveling at such speed would hit with the energy of a one-ton safe dropped from a three-story building. Anything it strikes will be destroyed and only increase the debris.

      With enough orbiting debris, pieces will begin to hit other pieces, fragmenting them into more pieces, which will in turn hit more pieces, setting off a chain reaction of destruction that will leave a lethal halo around the Earth. To operate a satellite within this cloud of millions of tiny missiles would be impossible: no more Hubble Space Telescopes or International Space Stations. Even communications and GPS satellites in higher orbits would be endangered. Every person who cares about the human future in space should also realize that weaponizing space will jeopardize the possibility of space exploration.


      and

      These satellites are already at increasing risk from space debris. At any moment, only about 200 kilograms of meteoroid mass are within 2,000 kilometers of the Earth's surface. But within this same altitude range are roughly 3 million kilograms of orbiting debris introduced by human activities, most from about 3,000 spent rocket stages and now-inactive satellites. Most of the approximately 4,000 additional objects several centimeters in size or larger resulted from the fragmentation of more than 120 satellites.

      That's from Bullitin of the atomic scientists, the article is talking about the impact of SDI defense on increasing the danger but the general problem exists even without the additional clutter from ABM technology.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:space junk? by bbowers · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      How is this -1 Troll? Sometimes I think the people don't look at what they're modding... of course I have no knowledge of what is going on with orbital mechanics, I'm a fucking Networking major, what do I care, just simply stating something that could possibly be done if there ever was a problem with it. No I'm not worried about it so whatever. -1 this too if you like, I felt it was 100% underrated.

      --
      Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
    9. Re:space junk? by Thagg · · Score: 1

      While it's a three-dimensional space, the satellite is travelling so fast along its orbit that you really lose one of those dimensions. If the satellites were sitting still, you could put millions of them at GPS altitudes without fear of collision.

      GPS satellites will stay in orbit for thousands of years. While they'll drift somewhat from their perfect orbits quickly, orbits at 11,000 miles are practically forever. You haven't noticed the moon's orbit decaying, and it has run out of maneuvering fuel quite some time ago.

      Two satellites that hit each other won't be going at a few hundred mph relative to each other, it's likely to be a few thousand or even a couple 10,000's mph -- and the energy of the collision goes up with the square of the speed. When the Air Force intentionally collided two satellites about 15 years ago, they didn't just smash into bits -- they basically atomized each other.

      They really do move the space station pretty often to avoid space debris, every few weeks. They're conservative, of course, but they wouldn't move it if they didn't have to. Of course the space station is at a far lower, and far more crowded, altitude than the GPS constellation.

      thad

      --
      I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
    10. Re:space junk? by jelle · · Score: 1

      "they didn't just smash into bits -- they basically atomized each other."

      Atomized means it became a plasmacloud that by the time it cools down it may recombine to a gas. Harmless particles much smaller than paint chips. So what's the problem?

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    11. Re:space junk? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure thing.

      She was walking all alone
      Down the street in the alley
      Her name was sally
      She never saw it
      When she was hit by space junk
      In new york miami beach
      Heavy metal fell in cuba
      Angola saudi arabia
      On xmas eve said norad
      A soviet sputnik hit africa
      India venezuela (in texas
      Kansas)
      It's falling fast peru too
      It keeps coming
      And now I'm mad about space junk
      I'm all burned out about space junk
      Oooh walk & talk about space junk
      It smashed my baby's head
      And now my sally's dead

    12. Re:space junk? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The airforce shouldn't burn these babies.

      Just think of all the hoopla that would come about because everyone realized they contain atomic clocks...

      With OUNCES OF CESIUM! ;)

    13. Re:space junk? by eastpole · · Score: 1

      Yes, the space station has to make course adjustments to miss objects that are tracked by RADAR.

      But neither it nor the space shuttle can do anything in advance about ojects too small (less than 10 cm) for U.S. Space Command to track with the ground-based RADARs.

      There would not be a lot of time to react if something like a large nut were approaching at several miles per second.

      It's worrisome.

      eastpole

      --
      Save yourself while you can! This is only a wende.
    14. Re:space junk? by Flingles · · Score: 0

      I'd be much more worried that, at any rate, eventually we will send all our metal into space :)

      --
      Karma: -2^0.5 . Mainly due to the imbibing of dihydrogen monoxide
    15. Re:space junk? by clarkcox3 · · Score: 1

      Do you realize how much energy would be required to send something to the sun? First, you'd have to break Earth orbit. Then you'd have to slow the craft down enough to overcome it's inertia (remember that it will be orbiting the sun at nearly the same speed as the earth itself). What a colossal waste. It would make much more sense to send them into the Earth's atmosphere than to the Sun.

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    16. Re:space junk? by clarkcox3 · · Score: 1

      OK, I'll put it in terms that a "f*cking Networking major" can understand:
      Saying "why don't we just send it to the sun?" makes about as much sense as saying "Why can't I use these two paper cups and a string to get a 100 Gbps network connection?"

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    17. Re:space junk? by q-the-impaler · · Score: 0

      Here's one of the projects that tracks space junk (and other space debris) GEODSS

      My Dad used to be an engineer in Socorro, NM with it.

      --
      Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform
    18. Re:space junk? by bbowers · · Score: 1

      There ya go, I can handle that ;-) I know nothing thats involved with it to tell you the truth, and if I had wanted to know I would have changed my major, but thanks for the information.

      --
      Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
    19. Re:space junk? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Sending stuff into the sun is just for Superman movies.

      To get something to fall into the sun you'd have to impart a velocity change equal to the earth's orbital velocity in the opposite direction of the earth's orbit. Then it would just fall straight into the sun. That is 30km/s just in case you are wondering.

      If your satellite has 100 kg of mass you need 100*30000 = 3E6 kg*m/s of impulse to get you into the sun. Fuels used by NASA for such purposes have specific impulses of about 270s or so. 3E6 kg*m/s / ((1 lb)*(270s)/0.45kg) = about 1100 kg of fuel. (Note that the lbs in the equation are FORCE not MASS - no wonder NASA flies their probes into Mars when the definition of specific impulse mixes pounds of force with pounds of "mass".)

      So, to deorbit into the sun you need 10kg of fuel for every 1kg of payload - that is a LOT of fuel to carry around on a satellite.

      Note that the real numbers are probably about 10% less since you would deorbit when your earth orbital velocity of about 3km/s is moving opposite the earth's revolution about the sun.

      Some people equate escape velocity with sending stuff into the sun. That is not true. Merely escaping the Earth's orbit puts you in orbit around the sun. The ISS has a very small escape velocity - just jumping off the side will send you heading away from the ISS with no chance of the ISS's gravity pulling you back in. However, just jumping off the side won't cause you to fall down towards the center of the earth - you'll just be in a slightly different orbit.

  8. OFF TOPIC? by hot_Karls_bad_cavern · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    What the fuck do you think the NRO does?

    1. Re:OFF TOPIC? by Eevee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's off topic because it's a GPS launch, not a recon sat launch.

      It's also more than a bit stupid because a Delta II isn't a heavy SLV (space launch vehicle) and a GPS satellite weighs a significant chunck of the possible lauch weight. (The article didn't say what model GPS sat was launched, but assuming it was the newest model, the IIF, then the Delta II couldn't handle two of them, let alone one of the NRO's monster satellites.) If I can look up the sat weight (3758 lbs) and the Delta II lauch capacity (4971 for the configuration used) in under five minutes, then he can look it up too.

    2. Re:OFF TOPIC? by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      :) How are you sure those are the right numbers?

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    3. Re:OFF TOPIC? by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

      it was a IIR, IIF won't launch for several more years.

      --
      Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
    4. Re:OFF TOPIC? by thogard · · Score: 1

      The GPS sats are spy sats. Their original purpose was to time the EMP of a nuke so they could tell which side of Berlin vaporised 1st. The fact that it could also be used to replace TRANSIT to help the sub fleet locate itself was a bonus. The original estimated costs of a civilian grade GPS reciever was in the order of $10,000 so they didn't plan on people finding geocaches with $200 hand held maping devices.

    5. Re:OFF TOPIC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If GPS satellites are spy satellites, then I suppose seismometers are as well.

  9. Kudos to the US by ergo98 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm well aware that the EU has plans of a GPS type system, however it does seem a bit unfair that the United States foots the bill for virtually the entire world's navigation system. While the system is primarily there for military means, the US could have encrypted the system from day one to avoid non-military use (which is what many other nations would do), or have offered decryption codes to US organizations to give them a competitive advantage. Instead they've offered it free of charge worldwide, even turning selective availability off so that geocaching adventure is even less of an adventure. Perhaps there's an insidius underlying motive (for example getting the world hooked on GPS while keeping their finger on the conceptual power button), but overall it's a praiseworthy thing they've done.

    1. Re:Kudos to the US by gnuman99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe because the US can manipulate it? If a rogue nation's army is trying to get to point A using GPS, the US might direct it to trap B instead :)

    2. Re:Kudos to the US by keith6689 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I guess that it costs quite a lot of money to set up and run the system, and that funding would be a lot easier to get if there was some benefit to taxpayers other than indirectly through improved military capability.

      It is good that the US has made the system available effectively without restriction, however now that other nations have realised the value of such a system, it is understandable that they want to be able to operate something similar without whatever political considerations are affecting the US to affect it.

    3. Re:Kudos to the US by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 3, Informative

      the US could have encrypted the system from day one

      it was encrypted from day one. they just recently changed it. (which is good and makes the rest of your post true and insightful)

    4. Re:Kudos to the US by MP3Chuck · · Score: 1

      Is that possible, though? It's my understanding that these sattelites just send out signals saying where they are in space, and it's the GPS device's job to figure out where that puts itself on the ground.

    5. Re:Kudos to the US by pe1rxq · · Score: 1

      Yes its possible.. Just have the satelites lie about were they are...
      Its not easy though and you would impact everyone using gps in a large part of the world.

      Jeroen

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    6. Re:Kudos to the US by grotgrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The US has gone to great lengths to try and stop Europe and Russia from deploying their own systems. They have never explicitly stated the reasons, but most observers come up with defense and control. I'll thank the US the day they stop trying to prevent others from deploying their own systems.

    7. Re:Kudos to the US by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 4, Informative

      all the sattelites do is send out signals of what time it is. they all have atomic clocks on board and just send it out. each device knows where the sattelites are (if i'm not mistaken, either they know or they ALSO send out a signal of where they are, but how are they supposed to know where they are? GPS?) last i heard there were 26 or 27 sattelites operating (50 is how many have ever existed, i'm guessing). So your GPS device also has a clock on it, and it gets a signal from 3 or 4 sattelites (4th for altitude if you want it, or more just for more accuracy) and it compares the time to its own and this way it can know exactly how far away each sattelite is, and it triangulates its position. The clocks work in hundredths of seconds, but the recievers can make these times more accurate by looking at when each hundredth of a second starts and ends blah blah blah. it's a lot more simple than you would think if you just learned about them.

    8. Re:Kudos to the US by ljavelin · · Score: 1

      Yep, as I understand it, it is possible for the US to manipulate GPS signals over a certain region.

      So let's say you're in the middle of a ground war in the, um, let's say Middle East. The (accessible) public signals can be scewed in a fairly localized manner... so that everything in the area appears to be about 1 km to the east, let's say. That's not very handy if you have a rouge nation deploying a weapon that depends on GPS accuracy.

      However, the encrypted military signal can retain it's accuracy... so US bombs can still retain their accuracy.

      Advantage: US.

      In any case, GPS is pretty cool. I don't think I'd like to put my life in it's hands (automated aircraft landing, let's say). But GPS is very cool if you consider the "within a few meters" accuracy you can get with an approx. $100 WAAS-capable unit.

    9. Re:Kudos to the US by pe1rxq · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually Russia already has its own system... (From the cold war era) called glonas.

      Jeroen

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    10. Re:Kudos to the US by ingenuus · · Score: 1

      Can it really be manipulated so precisely? It seems to me that if the satellites' signals were manipulated, they would cause everyone in a large geographical area (how many sats are there?) who use that GPS system to calculate the wrong location.

      Plus, if they were smart, their position could be roughly verified by other "old-fashioned" navigational means, so they probably couldn't mislead them on a large scale.

    11. Re:Kudos to the US by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not quite:

      The US offered two levels of GPS; one was encrypted and only available to the military; one was unencrypted but had something called "Selective Availability" (SA) turned on which decreased the accuracy by 200-300ft.

      Recently, they have turned off one of the two SA inaccuracies. The military (encrypted) signal is still more accurate (~10 feet), but now the public signal is valid to ~30 feet.

    12. Re:Kudos to the US by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 1

      afaik the public signal is about 12 feet, but in practice i've seen 4 or 5 feet.

    13. Re:Kudos to the US by grotgrot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes (it has two s' - Glonass). My point wasn't that other sources (Europe, Russia) have their own, but that the US has been very proactive in trying to prevent widespread use of them. The aviation press has a lot of information about this.

      I have no issue with the US campaigning to prevent widespread use of the other systems, but I am not going to turn around and thank the US for being so magnanimous when in fact they are advancing their own agenda.

    14. Re:Kudos to the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      afaik the public signal is about 12 feet, but in practice i've seen 4 or 5 feet.

      Those numbers are based on statistics. No one should give an accuracy with out the rest of the story. You need to state the % confidence.

      For example: within 5 m 95% of the time and within 10 m 99% of the time. Most the stats for receiver will list these.

    15. Re:Kudos to the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      As well as trying to prevent current use, they worked very hard (and failed) to prevent the launch.

      Too bad people here don't read closely. pe1rxq's reply is wrong enough. It's extra sad to see it modded insightful.

    16. Re:Kudos to the US by rijrunner · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are multiple bits of information buried in the data.

      There is the carrier frequency.

      Then each satellite has a specific identifying signal for each channel called a psuedo random number.

      Then, it layers in a telemetry data packet as part of the actual data transmitted

      http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/g ps /gps_f.html

    17. Re:Kudos to the US by afidel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually the military signal is no more accurate in practice except that it offers codes on a second frequency which helps to offset phase shift and multipath. Good commercial unit use the phase information from both the civilian channel AND the military channel (they can encrypt the code but the signal phase is still available) along with the civilian codes. General accuracy of consumer models is limited to around 10m probability sphere which is actually 5m average accuracy. Good equipment using both frequencies and two antennas can get down to about 12cm accuracy in roughly a minute and centimeter accuracy over a period of time (generally 10 minutes to 2 hours depending on necessary confidence). Btw SA has been turned off for quite a while, in fact it was May 1, 2000 that presidential order turned off SA. This was mostly due to realization that military units were too expensive and not widely enough available to common troops.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    18. Re:Kudos to the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Close enough, but the clocks in most GPS receivers aren't good enough (not atomic clocks), so you need one more satellite than you listed to solve for time.

      Estimated orbits are transmitted as you said. They are called broadcast ephemeris. They are basically predictions made by ground stations, which are relayed by the satellites. The accuracy is poor as you guess, but good enough for most things.

      It's very simple at first, but once you get into GPS seriously, it gets much more complex again. Sure CA code pseudorange solutions like you talk about are simple, but there are far more complex ways to process GPS signals. For example, it's possible with a fixed station to get sub-millimeter accuracy.

    19. Re:Kudos to the US by AlXtreme · · Score: 1
      Afaik, there are ways to improve the GPS signal, Differential GPS for instance which uses dual receivers. It's reasonably expensive and also has drawbacks, but I wonder why the US military hasn't stopped it by now (didn't they encrypt it for it's accuracy afterall?). Nasa uses it too, with an accuracy of 20cm.

      Any ideas?

      --
      This sig is intentionally left blank
    20. Re:Kudos to the US by rediguana · · Score: 1

      Whilst the US maintains control, they can pay for it. The US has chosen in the past to impact GPS coverage at certain times, there is no reason for other countries to contribute until service is not impacted by political whim.

    21. Re:Kudos to the US by CaptainStormfield · · Score: 1

      Good commercial unit use the phase information from both the civilian channel AND the military channel.

      Do you know which commercial units support this feature?

      --
      "The dinosaurs died because they didn't have a space program." - Niven
    22. Re:Kudos to the US by CaptainStormfield · · Score: 1

      Two reasons why the military hasn't stopped differential GPS:

      (1) In most situations they can't. Differential GPS just broadcasts the difference between a location measurement given by GPS and the actual location of the differential GPS station. So long as you can take GPS readings at a place whith known coodinates, and can make radio broadcasts on the appropriate frequencies, you can do differential GPS.

      (2) Differential GPS base stations must broadcast information. If the military is worried about a bad guy using diff gps during wartime, they can just set a missile to home in on his signal.

      --
      "The dinosaurs died because they didn't have a space program." - Niven
    23. Re:Kudos to the US by joggle · · Score: 1

      Yep, but he was right about needing the 4th satellite for altitude. There are initially 3 variables (lat, long and time) and then if another SV is available you can solve for altitude. I've heard that a military receiver can get a ballpark estimate of its position with just 2 SVs, but it is a very rough estimate (on the order of miles I think) by making a rough estimate for the receiver's clock error and with the user setting the altitude.

    24. Re:Kudos to the US by afidel · · Score: 1

      Most of the surveyor level equipment either does it standard or has an optional addon for it. I know that there are systems from Leica and Trimble which support it. Most people use the term realtime kinematics or similar to desribe this ability. The best site I have seen to describe the math behind the various systems (fixed point differential, single unit differential, etc) is here.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    25. Re:Kudos to the US by Nimey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hereby declare war on (over)use of the word "kudos".

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    26. Re:Kudos to the US by joggle · · Score: 1

      Any 2-frequency receiver will. However, you really have to pay for it. Try Trimble. They make some of the world's most accurate receivers (if you saw that Everest movie made by OmniMax, the GPS receiver they were using to measure Everest's height was a top-of-the-line Trimble). They generally cost in excess of $10000, with an additional $700+ for the antenna.

    27. Re:Kudos to the US by Ribald · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, and GLONASS sucks. Maybe even 'sucked'--I'm not sure it's still operational in any useful capacity. As I recall (I'm going from memory here), the GLONASS constellation was optimized for high latitudes--probably a Molniya orbit, or something similar. Anyway, it's more work than just putting them in a half-sync orbit like the NAVSTAR constellation for GPS.

      I know a guy that was with Space Command, working GPS since the early days. He met some Soviet Major (or something) at a conference once, years later. The guy related that his tank had both a GPS and a GLONASS reciever installed. His description of each?

      "GPS--very very good. GLONASS--dogshit."

      My biggest problems with GALILEO?

      First, the levels of precision--the stuff they're givng their police and EMS are on par with what our military has under lock and key. Which sounds harder to steal? (This may not be an issue now--been a long time since I read that.)

      Second (and more importantly), it's going to be expensive. As soon as the system is working, the EU is going to require anyone that wants to use GNSS for navigation to use GALILEO instead of GPS. Some requirement about 'safety' or somesuch. And they'll tax all the receivers. And charge for each approach (I'm told they charge you for about all they can in the European airspace system--approaches, wx reports...).

      Just wait. I guarantee you it will happen. Anyone flying over Europe will have to buy a GALILEO receiver. I'd bet Collins and Trimble are already lining up dual-system receivers.

      --Ribald

    28. Re:Kudos to the US by Kevin+DeGraaf · · Score: 2, Informative

      So your GPS device also has a clock on it, and it gets a signal from 3 or 4 sattelites (4th for altitude if you want it, or more just for more accuracy) and it compares the time to its own and this way it can know exactly how far away each sattelite is, and it triangulates its position.

      Trilateration, not triangulation.

      More info here.

      --
      We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked.
    29. Re:Kudos to the US by mozingod · · Score: 1

      Yep, as I understand it, it is possible for the US to manipulate GPS signals over a certain region. Any military that uses a navigation system owned and operated by their enemy deserves to be tricked in the first place...

    30. Re:Kudos to the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU has plans for a GPS system because they can't get the accuracy nor the assurance it will always be on. The US is very pissed off that anyone else has a global positioning system and is prepared to destroy any other countries satellites to retain its space superiority. The GPS system is for war, it isn't a gift.

    31. Re:Kudos to the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason why Europe/ESA is creating a new system is actually to have a system that is NOT controled by any one nations military. They (we...) want a system that no one nation can decide to turn off. Also, the terminals are supposed to be able to handle both GPS, Glonass and Galileo, meaning it has much better accuracy/availability than one handling only GPS or Glonass today.

  10. AGAIN::OFF TOPIC? by hot_Karls_bad_cavern · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Alright, time for handholding:

    "The NRO designs, builds and operates the nation's reconnaissance satellites. NRO products, provided to an expanding list of customers like the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Department of Defense (DoD), can warn of potential trouble spots around the world, help plan military operations, and monitor the environment."

    From their site

    1. Re:AGAIN::OFF TOPIC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 Interesting, enjoy

    2. Re:AGAIN::OFF TOPIC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      D'oh, it didnt warn me that posting as AC would remove the mod. n00b mistake...

  11. Internet too. by MisanthropicProgram · · Score: 5, Funny

    We have our moments.

  12. Ocean? by MisanthropicProgram · · Score: 1

    Do you guys ever have to go out into the ocean or some small unihabited island (if there is such a thing)? In the Canadian wilderness? That could be a real adventure!

    1. Re:Ocean? by mikewas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I used to work with Guidance & Navigation systems (late '70s, early '80s). One of the test sites was in the Pacific Islands. Most of the maps were originally made by the Japanese Military during WW2. It was fun finding some landmarks so we could get accurate data -- then use this data to extrapolate coordinates for the rest of the map. There's a lack of permanence to sand & coral, especially since it had been subjected to naval bombardment.

      It really was great fun searching the islands for these sites, and I got paid for it too!

      --

      "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." --Napoleon Bonaparte
    2. Re:Ocean? by red+floyd · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming you were at Kwaj? I think they do Star Wars out there now.

      --
      The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
    3. Re:Ocean? by schon · · Score: 1

      In the Canadian wilderness?

      Umm, I live in Edmonton - does that count? :o)

  13. er? by EMH_Mark3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Geocaching is fun because they replace old GPS satellites with new ones? wtf?

    --
    Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me
    1. Re:er? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Geocaching is fun because they replace old GPS satellites with new ones? wtf?

      I thought that was a strange comment myself, but then considered that perhaps they have no real life or friends. Looking forward to the next satellite replacement might be what gets this person through the day.

      yay! new satellite!

  14. oh sorry... by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 4, Funny

    if there is any one appropriate physical activity appropriate for geeks

    stop right there; short circuit the rest of the statement.

    1. Re:oh sorry... by !3ren · · Score: 3, Funny

      obviously the only physical activity appropriate for geeks is.... physics

  15. Geocaching by Dirtside · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the GPS satellites make geocaching *possible*? Whether or not it's fun has little to do with a rocket launching a satellite. Of course, you could say that it wouldn't be fun at all without a GPS system, since you'd have to navigate with less convenient methods. :)

    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  16. MOD PARENT UP: NOT OFFTOPIC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The last sentence of this post should have made everyone go wtf... it makes absolutely no sense and is a completely offtopic line in itself.

    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP: NOT OFFTOPIC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree about the WTF, but I'm not sure it's really offtopc. It's more of a non sequitur.

  17. Space Junk, paying the bill, etc, etc by rijrunner · · Score: 5, Informative


    First.. Space Junk.

    GPS is launched into an orbit some 12,000 miles above the Earth's surface. That orbit has a grand total of about 50 satellites split into 6 different, non-overlapping planes and slightly different altitudes. There are very, very few satellites that go out that far and none have a circular orbit within a few hundred miles of the GPS satellites. Very, very little chance of a collision.

    Also, from that height, the satellites lack enough fuel to deorbit or be sent into the sun. In 1992, my Univ of Colorado aerospace engineering lab went down to the control center and we had a nice tour. I asked the officer giving the brief if they intended to establish some sort of parking orbit for dying satellies as they get phased out. He indicated that it was something they would consider as the constellation gets built out.

    Secondly..

    Paying the bill.

    GPS was encrypted from Day 1. The lower resolution receivers we use just are allowed to decrypt the satellites. It is very difficult to get the higher resolution channel.

    The US government is perfectly willing to let the other countries contribute to the costs associated with running GPS.

    But..

    You might want to consider why the other countries are willing to spend billions on a redundant system rather than pay into GPS or use it for free.

    When someone spend billions rather than use a free service, something is up.

    The US military adamantly refuses to free any of the control of the system up. It is a US *military* asset. As such, it has military utility. They have completely thrown off the commercial channels in the past while engaging in military activities in a region by jiggering with the output to cause the locations to be off. (They can also turn off all the commercial channels on satellites flying over Afghanistan, then turn them back on before the reach the US, for example).

    The rest of the world seems to have some qualms about handing the world's major navigation system to a single provider, for some reason.

    1. Re:Space Junk, paying the bill, etc, etc by jelle · · Score: 1

      Maybe they should rename it MS-GPS, because then suddenly most people won't mind the single provider issue, and better yet they wouldn't mind any reliability problems... They could even make it much more expensive and require all GPS receivers to regularly 'call home' to check for "software updates", and people still won't mind.

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
  18. Some math by steveha · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The article says the satellite costs $45 million. I Googled a bit and found that the launch cost for a Delta 2 is around $50 to $60 million. The article also said the satellite being replaced is 11 years old, and at the end of its useful life, and that there are 50 GPS satellites.

    Crunching the numbers, we have about $105 million to put up a GPS satellite, with about 11 useful years; call it $10 million per year. Multiplying by 50 satellites, we have $500 million per year cost for GPS. I never knew. Also, on average, each year 4 or 5 launches must happen to replace aging GPS satellites.

    Note that the launch costs are actually higher than the cost of the satellite. Also, the satellite could probably be made more cheaply if launch costs were lower (instead of over-engineering it to never break, they might just launch a cluster of two in the same orbit, or just design it to be easily repaired). If and when private companies build reusable spacecraft that can carry a GPS satellite, the cost of GPS will go down a lot. A Boeing Delta 2 is completely used up in each GPS launch right now, so truly reusable spacecraft should be able to dramatically cut launch costs and still make money.

    steveha

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    1. Re:Some math by Y2K+is+bogus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Umm, you aren't counting right.

      That's the 50th satellite launched. That means $105m * 50 over the entire life of the GPS project.

      IIRC, there are only 26 operating satellites, give or take.

      Honestly though, do you believe the gov pays $105m for each satellite in orbit? There are plenty of ways for them to get their money back.

    2. Re:Some math by steveha · · Score: 1

      IIRC, there are only 26 operating satellites, give or take.

      I Googled and found that there are currently 28. Thanks for the correction!

      That means $105m * 50 over the entire life of the GPS project.

      We shouldn't assume we can multiply 50 by $105 million, because the earlier GPS satellites were different and probably cost more. And I don't have any data at all on R&D costs, which you could add to the price tag. I was just interested in the costs of keeping the current system going, and how many launches per year.

      So, 28 satellites not 50. But that's not all. I also found that the current generation of GPS satellites (the "Block IIA" and Block IIR" satellites) have a design life of less than 8 years. The "Block II" satellites must have a longer design life, since the oldest working satellite (SVN 13) has a launch date of 1989-06-10.

      Assuming all new GPS satellites are Block IIRs with a useful life of 7.8 years, and assuming we need to keep 26 GPS satellites in orbit, thats 3 to 4 launches per year to replace aging satellites, about $350 million per year.

      Honestly though, do you believe the gov pays $105m for each satellite in orbit? There are plenty of ways for them to get their money back.

      I don't understand this comment. "Get their money back"?

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    3. Re:Some math by thedillybar · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I don't understand this comment. "Get their money back"?

      It goes something like this.

      1) Pay Lockheed & Boeing to get the bird in the sky.
      2) Tax Lockheed & Boeing.
      3) Tax the income of the employees of Lockheed & Boeing.
      4) Tax this money again when they buy stuff (sales tax).
      etc. etc. etc.

      If I had to guess, the only money the US is actually losing (dollars leaving the country) on this project is for the fuel and maybe some titanium (or other raw materials). AFAIK, both Boeing and Lockheed are still 99% US-based.

    4. Re:Some math by steveha · · Score: 1

      Sure, the government collects a lot in taxes. But I don't think you can really figure that in to the price tag of a project like this. You could mention taxes anytime you talk about the government spending money.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    5. Re:Some math by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

      Earlier GPS satellites had less features and probably cost less. There have been 50 launches.

      Florida Today article is the local paper for Cape Canaveral and states that the Delta II launch costs are now $90 million. Whether that value includes the $45 million for the satellite itself, I don't know.

      The satellites do have a design lifetime of less than 8 years. However, they have been lasting several years longe, typically lasting 10-11 years. The Air Force manages to keep quite a few working, even though particular satellites may have several subsystems failing. The satellites that are coming after the GPSIIR run out have a longer design life, perhaps 10 years. Hence the Air Force has only launched 37 since SVN 13 in 1989, only 2.5 per year.

      Yes, the government pays 105, maybe $135 million per launch.

      --
      Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
    6. Re:Some math by toast0 · · Score: 1

      I don't think there's such thing as an easy repair on a sattelite. Manned spaceflight is way more expensive then sending up another sattelite.

    7. Re:Some math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need only one...

      0) Print some more money

      (somebody else can worry about inflation).

    8. Re:Some math by jelle · · Score: 1

      "If and when private companies build reusable spacecraft that can carry a GPS satellite, the cost of GPS will go down a lot."

      Given the cost of a shuttle launch in comparison with Atlas and Delta launches, I haven't seen the proof yet of a cost savings by using a reusable launch vehicle.

      By the way, it's the space elevator and space tethers that bets are being taken on for cheap launches these days.

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    9. Re:Some math by steveha · · Score: 1

      Good grief! The Shuttle is a horrible boondoggle. It is reusable in name only. It takes months of full-time work by a standing army of hundreds of people to refurbish a shuttle to make it ready to fly again.

      We need the space equivalent of a 747 airplane: something that spends more time flying than being refurbished. That will bring down launch costs a great deal.

      A space elevator would be great, but I don't want to wait for one. That's much harder engineering than a truly reusable spacecraft. And you will want the reusable spacecraft to help build the elevator anyway.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    10. Re:Some math by steveha · · Score: 1

      Manned spaceflight is way more expensive then sending up another sattelite.

      It is now. True reusable spacecraft will change the game very much.

      Currently, you build your space objects as large single pieces, with maximum size depending on which rocket you will use to do the launch. In the future, you will build your space objects as modules that dock together, with module size chosen to be convenient for the cargo capacity of your true reusable spacecraft. It will be much cheaper to send up several launches of a reusable spacecraft than to send one giant rocket that is completely consumed in the process.

      How much would it cost to fly from Seattle to Los Angeles if the plane was somehow destroyed in the process? Air travel is pretty cheap because most of the cost is the fuel. If we could build a spacecraft that is fully reusable and easy to maintain, most of the cost would then be the fuel. You could put things in orbit for not much more than the cost of flying them all the way around the world; expensive, but not insanely so.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    11. Re:Some math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't bet on your idea. For one thing, it's probably pretty expensive to make an atomic clock, let alone one that can survive launch and 10 years of radiation. It's going to be big and heavy because it has to have a decade worth of fuel, batteries, solar panels, etc.

      Plus, with the orbit these things are at, there's no way that your "reusable spacecraft" would be able to just insert them in the first place. As long as it would require multiple stages, the fuel cost wouldn't go down, you're still throwing part away, and you're going to be have to pay for recovery and refurb on your reusable vehicle. So why bother?

      aQazaQa

    12. Re:Some math by jelle · · Score: 1

      What I was trying to say that I havent seen one of those 'truly reusable spacecraft' yet, and maybe the shuttle taught us that it is not possible to make such a thing that actually saves money. Technical details such as limits on materials and temperatures and other stresses may make it impossible to make the '747 equivalent' reusable space vehicle.

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    13. Re:Some math by steveha · · Score: 1

      maybe the shuttle taught us that it is not possible to make such a thing

      What the Shuttle taught us is that it is not possible for NASA to make such a thing.

      No one has done it yet, but it actually looks reasonable. It's not clear that we can build a single-stage-to-orbit (SSTO) reusable spacecraft with our current knowledge, but it's quite clear that we could build at least a two-stage design (TSTO) where both stages are truly reusable. And most of the experts think SSTO is doable. It won't have much capacity, but you will be able to send things up in pieces. And it will be great for moving people and supplies.

      One reusable spacecraft will cost more to build than one disposable rocket, but you will save big money if you can fly the reusable one a lot.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    14. Re:Some math by steveha · · Score: 1

      For one thing, it's probably pretty expensive to make an atomic clock, let alone one that can survive launch and 10 years of radiation. It's going to be big and heavy because it has to have a decade worth of fuel, batteries, solar panels, etc.

      I'll have to agree there. Never mind my cluster idea, the general idea stands: right now, they expend huge amounts of effort on making the things fail-proof, because there is nothing you can do once it's in orbit. If you can assume cheap and frequent manned spaceflight, you might be able to relax a bit, and thus save some money.

      GPS satellites have already been desinged, so it might make more sense to keep making them to the same design anyway even if there is frequent cheap manned space flight. Maybe a better example is orbiting telescopes. You might just design them with a short planned life, and keep replacing them ever few years with better and better ones. Compare with Hubble which was expensive (and still managed to launch with bad optics, big scandal).

      As long as it would require multiple stages, the fuel cost wouldn't go down, you're still throwing part away, and you're going to be have to pay for recovery and refurb on your reusable vehicle.

      What if you used one flight of a reusable spacecraft to launch a "space taxi" that can change orbits, and another flight to bring up a load of fuel for it, and another flight to bring up the satellite? The "space taxi" would not be discarded, it would stay in orbit indefinitely. It would be relatively cheap to just keep bringing more fuel for it.

      Such a "taxi" should be straightforward; it doesn't have to survive in atmosphere, so just a crew compartment, a cargo rack, some fuel tanks and some jets should do. (Disclaimer: I'm not any sort of expert.)

      If we can get space flight to the point where fuel is a major part of the costs, we will have made a huge stride forward. Right now, salaries for all the legions of people are the highest cost, and expensive hardware is most of the rest.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  19. there is a simple explanation by QEDog · · Score: 5, Funny
    Geocaching is fun because they replace old GPS satellites with new ones?

    I think he just hid his cache in the satellite before it went up. Darn, that is going to be hard to get.

    --
    "There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
  20. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  21. More like... Shame on US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
    I'm well aware that the EU has plans of a GPS type system, however it does seem a bit unfair that the United States foots the bill for virtually the entire world's navigation system.

    How naive of you.

    US, and specifically those who wrote and otherwise endorsed PNAC have been doing everything possible to stop the development/deployment of Galileo - GNSS (EU GPS initiative). US isn't providing the rest of the world with global navigation technology out of its heart's content. It's a tool which gives corporate interests as well as military complex a dominant role. There are billions of dollars involved ($12bn and growing), as well as geo-political element of control. Imagine if there was a conflict between China and US in the next decade. Do you honestly believe Pentagon would let the Chinese to utilize GPS in order to strike US targets?

    Paul Wolfowitz was one of those people who was (and still is) opposed to any kind of GPS which isn't under direct jurisdiction of United States. Now that the deal has been reached, it leaves no choice for the hawks to accept the fact that US GPS hegemony will be broken in few years. Competition helps everyone.

    There is also the commercial aspect to it. Galileo, once fully operational by 2007, would suck a huge amount of revenue from GPS. US officials had many reasons to stifle competition in order to ensure GPS monopoly.

    Read the paper on detailing some of the drama and US' sabotage of EU independent GPS system here
    1. Re:More like... Shame on US by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      Now that the deal has been reached, it leaves no choice for the hawks to accept the fact that US GPS hegemony will be broken in few years. Competition helps everyone.

      How naive of you.

      Did you actually READ the paper you linked to?

      Here's a nice little tidbit for you:
      "Since these bands are so close to the M-code, the signal broadcast on E1 and E2 could potentially interfere with the secure military signal. More importantly, the E1 and E2 bands would be extremely difficult for the U.S. to jam without silencing the M-code."

      The next thing to consider is: WHY would someone want to jam GPS at all?
      This is why! (Ask yourself: What's the major difference between a V-2 rocket and a cruise missle? A highly accurate guidance system.)

      I have no problem with the EU developing it's own GPS system, but it should be designed responsibly. It should not interfere with the US system.

      It should be possible to jam the civilian US GPS system and any "unsecured" foreign GPS system with out shutting down EU or US secured GPS. This is crucial in preventing the production of budget cruise missles, etc by non-US, non-EU countries.

      If these criteria are not met the only two options open to the US will be: let the missles hit their targets or shoot down the Galileo system. Nobody wants the second option to happen.


      I'm typically all for the public distribution of information, but measures must be taken to ensure that anybody with a million dollars and a grudge can't build a super-accurate bomb.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    2. Re:More like... Shame on US by mpe · · Score: 1

      The next thing to consider is: WHY would someone want to jam GPS at all? (Ask yourself: What's the major difference between a V-2 rocket and a cruise missle? A highly accurate guidance system.)

      A V-2 is a ballistic missile. Just about all launchers, including the Delta, are ballistic missile derivatives.
      A cruise missile is a missile derived from an aircraft design e.g. the V-1. A Kamikazi plane is a cruise missile where the guidance system is a human pilot.

      It should be possible to jam the civilian US GPS system and any "unsecured" foreign GPS system with out shutting down EU or US secured GPS.

      Most of the world would probably be more interested in jamming any GPS system usable by the US military. Especially if their own military is not dependent on such a system...

      This is crucial in preventing the production of budget cruise missles, etc by non-US, non-EU countries.

      Guided missiles are expensive and complex. Cruise missiles are quite vulnerable to being shot down. If you have some suitable "special forces" available it's easier to have them steal an aircraft...

      If these criteria are not met the only two options open to the US will be: let the missles hit their targets or shoot down the Galileo system.

      A ballistic missile does not need an kind of GPS system to be effective, especially as a "terror weapon". A 60 year old INS will do the trick against something like a city.

    3. Re:More like... Shame on US by akb · · Score: 1

      This DIY cruise missle would be a better example to scare people with than the V2.

  22. Purely a temporary glitch by RodgerDodger · · Score: 0

    The fact that this satellite is the 50th is obviously just a temporary aberration. After all, it's replacing an existing one, right? As soon as they decommision the old one, then this becomes the 49th one again.

    --
    "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
    1. Re:Purely a temporary glitch by thedillybar · · Score: 4, Informative
      It's the 50th launch of a GPS satellite.

      Get over the ambiguous wording.

    2. Re:Purely a temporary glitch by RodgerDodger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not ambiguous though: this is the 50th GPS satellite, and it's being launched.

      Actually, it's not even the 50th GPS satellite up there; prior to this launch, there were only 28 operational satellites. None of the original 11 are still in service, and one of the other 38 blew up on the launchpad.

      So, while this is the 50th GPS satellite, it's only the 49th launch.

      --
      "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
  23. Re:EU's positioning system by thedillybar · · Score: 1
    Although I've heard of the European Union (EU) trying to come up with their own positioning system, I've never heard anything about the US trying to disrupt this.

    Do you have a reference please, or did you come up with this on your own?

  24. Re:US controlling GPS by thedillybar · · Score: 1
    They have completely thrown off the commercial channels in the past while engaging in military activities in a region by jiggering with the output to cause the locations to be off.

    Although I've heard, and certainly believe, that it's possible for the US to screw up GPS, I've never heard of them actually doing it.

    Do you have some reference for this? I'd be very interested to see more information about these incidents. In particular, I'd like to see what President (I'd assume the decision would be made by the commander-in-chief) allowed it and if he explained his reasoning to the public.

  25. Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! by interiot · · Score: 1
    WAAS IS a form a differential GPS. And it is helpful, yes, but the poster was trying to be clear about much turning off SA helped.

    DGPS is more a concept than anything (use nearby readings to cancel out as many forms of GPS error as possible), and can provide anywhere from WAAS-level accuracy to centimeter-level accuracy if you're willing to take readings over several days and process them on a computer after the fact.

  26. Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! by nick0909 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Have you ever USED WAAS? I have it turned on in my GPS and only get a WAAS signal if I am at about 4000' ASL or higher. And I use my GPS a lot. So far WAAS has not helped me all that much. (I also know the map & compass way too) Nick Butte County Search & Rescue

  27. Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! by Radi-0-head · · Score: 1

    My Garmin iQue is WAAS compatible. The manual says that it is available in coastal areas. I live in San Diego and have never ONCE encountered a WAAS-enhanced signal, even while driving down the coast highway.

    As the previous post would suggest, WAAS seems to only work at high altitudes... or maybe it is just prone to interference at lower altitudes. Anyone care to clue us in on this?

  28. Info on satellite by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

    Yep it's off with the ability to turn it back on should the need arise. However, the political backlash would probably cost a president his re-election, so Bush wouldn't do it till after the election.

    A couple more GPS IIR then the upgrade GPS will be launched, then several years after that another upgrade will start going up.

    It was a very nice launch on a beautiful Florida day.

    --
    Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
    1. Re:Info on satellite by dynamo · · Score: 1

      You're kidding, right?
      Bush started two wars, one for no particular reason, trashed the constitution he had sworn to protect, threatened to fire government officials if they told the truth to the public when it wasn't what he wanted, made fake news reports promoting his policies and more; and many people still think the guy will get re-elected. Some even want him to. It's insane, but I don't think weakening the GPS signal would register on anyone's political radar, if those things aren't enough.

  29. Geocaching and GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [For the dorks grading articles, give this a minus 10 right now. ]

    Differential GPS is nice, it does depend on how close your base station is to the "rover" which is gathering the data you are really interested. If your base station is close, you can count on precisions as small as 10cm. If the rover can average some given location over many "time periods", you can probably get better than 10cm. Typically, vertical precision is about twice of horizontal precision, but this depends on the "constellation" you are seeing.

    I've seen quite a few more than 4 (the minimum to calculate (X,Y,Z,T)) at any given time. Where I have run into difficulties, is at the edges of agricultural fields where there is a stand of trees next to the field. Just guessing, I would think the highest number of satellites in view was around 8. But the constellation is much more important than the number! If many of the satellites are vertical (and hence about the same z distance away from the rover), they all give about the same information and hence don't really contribute to the accuracy of the solution.

    But, technical considerations ignored; if geocaching or the Digital Confluence Project gets people to get some exercise, it is all worth it.

  30. Re:EU's positioning system by MurphyZero · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mostly the US has declared that it is 'unnecessary' for the EU to develop their own system or that the planned sytem would disrupt GPS (the planned improvements to GPS due to similar frequencies). Recently the US has come to an agreement with the EU about how the satellites will work. So it does appear that Galileo will become a reality.

    Forbes magazine

    EU viewpoint

    --
    Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
  31. Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! by Ageless+Stranger · · Score: 1

    I get a signal from the WAAS birds all the time with my Garmin 60C. Heck, I can even pull a signal down indoors sometimes. With my 76S, I never once got a WAAS signal. I guess newer gps's are getting better at recieving...

  32. Re:EU's positioning system by grotgrot · · Score: 1

    As I said in a previous comment, the best reference are the aviation magazines. Sadly few put all the stories online.

    Most places want to move to free airspace, rather than pre-designated corridors. To do so requires better knowledge of where the planes are, and where they are going (this is way more than just TCAS). They also want to improve precision of approaches to runways (where a few meters matters a lot).

    An obvious component of such a system is something like GPS but with greater accuracy. Europe, Russia and others have been using this as one reason to deploy their own systems. Read the press for what the US has been doing.

    (Note I am not saying that the US is doing anything illegal or immoral, just that it is trying to ensure everyone uses its system.)

  33. ARRRG! I was wrong! by Eevee · · Score: 2, Informative

    I went back to double-check and I misread the capacity as being in pounds when it was actually in kilograms. Curse you, conventional "English" measurement system. I go now to hang my head in shame.

  34. Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! by UncleSocks · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a pilot with a WAAS capable IFR GPS (Garmin 430), I've looked into this. There just aren't that many WAAS ground correction transmitters yet.

  35. Selective Availability -- it's still there! by aquarian · · Score: 1

    Selective Availability has mostly been turned off, but it still comes on occasionally, during military exercises or whatever. Warnings are issued over marine radio etc. when SA is to be in effect.

    Most of the time, accuracy is indeed better than 10 feet. In my experience, it's actually about a meter.

  36. To Clear up some things.... by spankus · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. GPS satellites have never "degraded" service over an area. Anyone who says so, doesn't have the right data, or has been smoking the ganja a little bit too much. To anyone who doubts this...How bad do you think the PR would be if GPS was unable to be used for airline navigation, or search and rescue, or worse than that caused some crash?

    2. The satellite launched was a Block IIR vehicle. Block IIR-M and IIF vehicles are still in a very low orbit (close to sea level..haven't been launched.)

    3. We can't burn satellites in from semi-synchronous orbit (the GPS orbit) using today's technology. When they're disposed of we kick them away from the earth a couple of hundred kilometers. Orbital degradation is slight at semi-synchronous, but the satellites will interfere with each other in about 6,000 years. I hope we'll be able to clean it up before then.

    4. GPS Signals arrive on two frequencies, L1 (L1 = 1575.42 MHz) and L2 (L2 = 1227.6 MHz). C/A code (which is FREE as in air to civil users) is modulated onto the L1 carrier signal. It has never been encrypted. It has been degraded (selective availability, the method of degradation, was turned off in 2000) but is now every bit as accurate as the military signal. The only significant advantage the military receivers have is the ability to correct for ionospheric defraction using both frequencies.

    5. The major driver behind Galileo (EU GPS) is economics. Basically the US has a handle on a 12 billion dollar industry and the EU wants its share. They're expecting to charge money for the same service the US gives out for free! Somebody failed economics.

    Feel free to respond with any questions, I'd love to answer them.

    1. Re:To Clear up some things.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There also a new GPS frequency, L5, down in the 1100 MHz band. This will offer precision data and a higher anti-jam advantage for civilian use.

    2. Re:To Clear up some things.... by radaos · · Score: 1

      >> They're expecting to charge money for the same service the US gives out for free! Somebody failed economics

      Not necessarily. Galileo will have a number of classes of service, Commercial service promises accuracy of 10 cm to 1 m, a lot better than GPS.

    3. Re:To Clear up some things.... by ag-at-work · · Score: 1

      Right...but won't be launched until the first IIF satellite. Scheduled for 2006 currently.

      --
      saving the world from themselves every day.
    4. Re:To Clear up some things.... by deadweight · · Score: 1

      Guess what? Ground based GPS jammers frequently disprupt GPS navigation. These are being tested by the government in a few areas. NOTAMS (notices to airman) will usually give advnaced warning. Deadweight, Commercial Pilot

    5. Re:To Clear up some things.... by spankus · · Score: 1

      look at the current performance curve....We'll be sub 1 meter by that time.

  37. Re:US controlling GPS by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

    THe Slective availability option is always available. They jiggered with it as a matter of operating procedure until 2000. They can always turn it back on. Plus they try to optimize accuracy in areas of military operations (Iraq, Afghanistan). By just doing the reverse, they could increase the inaccuracy in regions. However, I doubt this could be used to large effect without impacting US military operations in a larger region. Plus, using too many such maneuvers would reduce the lifetime of the satellites (fuel is the precious, limited commodity)

    --
    Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
  38. Re:US controlling GPS by afidel · · Score: 1

    During Gulf War 1 they had SA cranked up to the max (~300m error) until they realized that 1) the Iraqi's didn't have any GPS units and 2) there were not enough military GPS units available for all the troops. So they completely turned off SA and handed out quickly requisitioned civilian GPS units to the troops.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  39. Re:TinFoil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    narc. your just put here so that people will be thrown off.

    narc

  40. Question that many others may have too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do handheld GPS units actually "send" data, or signal or -ANYTHING- out?

    Or is it 100% "silent"?

    Paranoid minds want to know!

    Anyone have a good general GPS book recommendation with all the latest tech and explanations ? Maybe roll your own guide too? I'd love to learn this stuff

  41. Double-ARRRG! It's not my night. by Eevee · · Score: 1

    Yeah, you're right. Over at spacetoday.net they list it as being GPS 2R-11. (For the record, the IIR is 2370 pounds.)

  42. Amen to that by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    I went caching in the desert (where in most cases a clear view of the entire sky results in very high GPS accuracy - I've seen my GPS be accurate to within 5 feet on some caches...), and there were cases where I would literally be standing on top of the cache and not see it.

    One of the best was a cache at the top of a canyon. The first time I went there, I thought my GPS was just being inaccurate and the cache was at the bottom. That would've been too easy.

    You could park 100 feet from the cache, but you had to hike .4 miles up the canyon and then .4 miles back along the rim to reach it. Once you got to it, it was a buried can sitting under a rock.

    There are lots of rocks - Even close-up, this one was almost indistinguishable from any other.

    East Coast geocachers are usually not so evil, probably due to the fact that those caches are in the woods and they know that their GPS units and those of the cache finders won't be as accurate. I know of one cache that can only be found at certain times due to the fact that it's in a gorge and over half the time you can't receive signals from enough satellites for even a 2-D fix down there.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  43. Not necessarily true by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    I believe the "GPS-2" referred to above is proposals I've heard to put the C/A (coarse acquisition) code on the second GPS frequency (L2) in addition to L1.

    Currently only military receivers and special receivers that use extra processing tricks (aforementioned $20k Trimbles, NoVaTels, etc.) are capable of using the current L2 transmissions.

    The advantage of a dual-frequency receiver is that ionospheric delay (a significant contributor to GPS error now that SA is turned off) is a linear function of frequency. Measure the difference in arrival between the pseudocodes on two different frequencies, and you can figure out the absolute ionospheric delay at a given frequency.

    The end result is increased accuracy without the need for differential corrections. (Right now, L1-only receivers must rely on DGPS to eliminate errors from ionospheric delay. A dual-frequency receiver can eliminate those errors without external information.)

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  44. Geocaching fan, but as a scuba diver... by Colonel+Blimp · · Score: 1

    I wish that GPS would be able to penetrate about 150 or so feet of water. Underwater navigation is tough enough (visability, lack of landmarks). Being able to set the coords of the boat before diving would be nice. Love to Geocache, I have 3.5 year old caches out there in the desert.

  45. Minor correction by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Differential GPS sends corrections for errors in the pseudoranges for each satellite (and in some cases, sends improved ephemerides for predicting the sat's orbit).

    It can be mathematically shown that "Poor man's DGPS", i.e. "This is the lat/long the GPS says I'm at, this is my real lat/long" does not work, and may even degrade accuracy.

    The good news is it's getting easier and easier to create a DGPS source. In the past, it was impossible to get raw pseudorange data from economical receivers. But nowadays, many sub-$200 OEM units are capable of it, as are some handhelds.

    These are "cheap" receivers that I know of that allow for raw pseudorange and carrier phase logging:

    Garmin 12-channel (Undocumented and unsupported, but it can be done. I've done it myself. Do a search for gar2rnx).

    Rockwell Jupiter (Best example is the Delorme Earthmate, which Delorme advertises as being able to provide raw pseudorange/carrier data if you buy their software, GPS PostPro)
    u-blox modules, I believe.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    1. Re:Minor correction by CaptainStormfield · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the clarification. I still think that my original point is valid, e.g. that anyone who can get a gps reading (with a suitable GPS) and can broadcast corretion data, can provid DGPS

      --
      "The dinosaurs died because they didn't have a space program." - Niven
  46. Selective Availability by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    Galileo was shaping up to become a reality around May of 2000. (i.e. the Europeans were getting REAL serious about putting up their own positioning system.)

    Guess when SA was turned off? Guess how fast Galileo turned into a dead project after SA was turned off?

    Nowadays, even if SA is turned back on, it probably won't mean much. DGPS has become far more common than just the USCG stations. (For example, WAAS/EGNOS/whatever the Japanese call their system, all three are identical with different names, which are a form of DGPS.)

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  47. How To Use a Compass by KjetilK · · Score: 1

    Yup, and if you need to learn how to use a compass, I'll just plug my pages about it. It is a bit dated, I hope to be able to return to it soon.

    --
    Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
  48. As former GPS instructor and operator by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 4, Informative
    I can answer the question you pose. It's been partly answered already, but I'll add a little trivia for anyone who cares. I flew GPS satellites as enlisted active-duty Air Force for about 3 years, from 91-94, and then taught it at the schoolhouse (Falcon AFB, now called Shreiver, and then Vandenberg AFB) from 95-98.

    The constellation has 4 slots per orbit, with six orbital planes. Since the satellites are at a semi-sync orbit around 12,000 Nm (nautical miles), there is no way to deorbit or send the shuttle up to fix. The shuttle only goes up around 50-100 miles, from what I've read.

    Early GPS satellites, commonly referred to as Block I, were experimental and only expected to last around 5 years. These babies turned out to be over achievers and a few lasted 13 years (SVN 3, if my memory serves correct). It usually came down to degradation of the solar arrays. The Cesium and Rubidium clocks will still have one or two operational (they launched with 4), but the solar arrays couldn't generate enough electricity to last through Solar Season (a point in orbital mechanics, where the satellite spends a good amount of time in the sun or moon's shadow). On a few, they made the mistake ( or didn't anticipate) of not insulating one of the batteries well enough, and it failed faster.

    Anyway, with technology, they started packing more and more extra crap on the satellites and it didn't seem to make the birds any better. I used to give the Rockwell engineers a hard time by saying, "Strap on a Block IIa solar array on a Block I bird and it'll last 20 years".

    The launch schedule is planned around these predicted end of life time periods. We collect State of Health (SOH) data on every pass, since we go up on each satellite at least once or twice a day. This data helps with long term trending and will alert the engineers if it looks like a bird is going to die early.

    When the bird gets to the point it can't maintain its attitude (Z-Axis pointing +/- 2 degrees, at the center of the Earth), or the electrical system is failing (either due to batteries and/or solar arrays), then a end of life burn is scheduled. The satellite is spun up, so that eletricity and hyrodzine is no longer needed to keep the satellite stabilzed, and then it's boosted as far out as it's feasible as to make it's operational slot in the orbit reusable.

    In case anyone is curious about the stabilization, the satellites use 4 reactor wheels mounted on a pyramid shaped structure. Basicly, picture 4 flywheels spinning on the Egyptian Pyramids (but smaller, course!). One wheel can fail, and the other three can still keep the satellite 3-axis stabilized. GPS satellites keep the "bottom" of the satellite always pointing to Earth, as that's where the primary L-Band (what you use to get your GPS positioning) and S-band (what the AF uses to perform command and control, etc) antennas. There are electro-magnets that use computer modeling of the magnetic fields around the earth to dissipate stored energy in the reaction wheels. Otherwise, the wheels would eventually spin up to their max and no longer be correcting. Thruster firings are not an option, as it's too drastic a manueuver to maintain a precise positioning signal. A thruster firing will cause the satellite to flag it's data as not usable (almanac data).

    Hope this was interesting....

    John

    1. Re:As former GPS instructor and operator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow.. I didn't know the -sun- had a shadow :P

    2. Re:As former GPS instructor and operator by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 1
      lol, yeah, that's what happens when you're up at midnight still /.ing. I also made one other mistake in that same paragraph.

      It should have said, "Earth or moon's shadow", and it should have been, "during Solar Eclipse Season." (vice Solar Season....)

      I did preview the post, but it was 2am and I just missed it.

      John

  49. GPS and Galileo - Locating an Effective Policy by harmonica · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the Google cache link of that paper. Does anyone know where the PDF has been moved? Or does anyone have a copy? I'd like to print it out for reading.

  50. Re:Kudos to the US - really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, the europeans are developing their own GPS.

    The USA stepped in and FORCED them to reduce the accuracy of the system AND make it jammable by USA forces.

    Sounds to me like the USA would prefer there was "no competition" in this area, so they can continue turning it off when they want to (civilian GPS has been disabled over wide areas where US military forces are in conflicts)

    Make no mistake. Like Interstate highways, GPS is a MILITARY system. It is in the USA govt's interest to have civilians and foreigners dependant on US positioning systems _only_ for the same reason any monopolist or militarist wants sole control of an arena - once the general population is dependant on the availability of something, removing it induces severe hardship.

    I've been in small aircraft hundreds of miles out to sea (island hopping) when GPS has suddenly been switched off - something which carrying a spare unit has no backup for. You can't use VHF beacons, because they don't carry that far, (even when flying at emergency altitudes of 25,000 feet, using oxygen) and shipping beacons (HF) "bend" around landmasses, so are unreliable when travelling at aircraft speed (on ships you can spend several minutes looking up corrections, etc). Even a sextant is of limited use a lot of the time - and in that case a sextant is exactly what was used. Flying a compass bearing could and probably would have resulted in missing the target by far enough that there would be no fuel to retrack (and this is despite having more than twice as much fuel onboard as the estimated time of flight. Headwinds over open ocean at 10,000 feet can easily double flight times - and 10,000 feet is the maximum safe altitude without pressurisation/oxygen.

    It would have been interesting to see what the results would have been if the euros had flipped the bird to the Pentagon and continued along the intended design path. Perhaps they're still doing so while saying they're not - the USA has been known to do just that in the past.

  51. Shameless Plug by bogamo · · Score: 1

    GPS users should really appreciate my website:

    http://trailregistry.com

    You can create maps from old track logs, and share these maps, waypoints, trip reports, etc..

    --
    Check out TrailRegistry.com, my hiking site, Maps, altitude pr
  52. I'm waiting for Galileo ;-) by fantomas · · Score: 1

    "I'd like to see some more precise GPS"

    Us Olde Europeans are waiting for Galileo ;-P

  53. from a space-junkologist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For some real information, check out the NASA space junk site. The NASA Safety Standard is on the mitigation page, and the ORDEM2000 software gives you the estimated debris environment in low-Earth orbit.

    Objects with perigee above LEO (about 2000km) won't decay within "human" timescales, but we keep sending up more.

  54. Question... by Karem+Lore · · Score: 1

    When NASA sends up probes or people or whatever into space (such as mars), do they need to take into account the position and orbit of every satelite up there to make sure they don't inadvertently drive a rocket into one?

    --
    When all is said and done, nothing changes...
    1. Re:Question... by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 1
      They generally avoid areas known to have a good deal of debris. There are known "windows" you can put a launch through that have no debris and provide the orbital trajectory for that particular mission.

      The manned spaceflights, however, get much greater scrutiny. If there's debris within a safety corrodor, the flight is changed or not made. I was in Alaska for a year, taking part in the Air Force network that tracked the objects.

      And to the other post....yes, unannounced foreign launches created excitement and had the highest priority. Most nation's announce it, but a few of our adversaries didn't for obvious reasons.

  55. Reagan made GPS public after airliner shot down by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 2, Interesting
    GPS was originally enabled with encryption, frequency hopping, and degraded signals for unauthorized users.

    However, back in the 80's when Russia shot down that civilian airliner that strayed off course, President Reagan made the decision to make GPS publicly available.

    DoD fought off turning off the system all together because we didn't want our enemies to use the system against us. However, with the EU wanting to launch their own and the spreading use of DPGS (differential GPS), it eventually became moot. So DoD turned it off in the mid-90s (I think it was 94...I was still a GPS operator and I remember helping doing it....just can't remember what year that was). They do, however, reserve the right to turn it back on. FWIW, DOT (Department of Transportation) wanted to add their own signal (L5), but I don't know if that got anywhere.

    OK....trivia time for those who care: GPS comes with Selective Ability/Anti-Spoofing (SA/AS), which allow the signal to be jam-proof, encrypted and for only authorized users. The frequency can hop, and the signal's accuracy be purposely degraded. It was a security breach to speculate who High Accuracy Users were, but we joked it was a guy on a camel in the middle of the desert. I won't go into detail about how the above works, since I'm waiting for my Top Secret clearance for my new job flying Milstar Satellites (Air National Guard).

    The satellites are basicly beacons, transmitting their current position and time to accuracy of a nanosecond. This is why the satellites are launched with 4 frequency standards, although the latest generation (Block IIF, I believe) was slated to only have 3. I haven't been involved with GPS lately, so my info is about 3 years old. There is a chance the Guard may become a backup for GPS, but I'm told its unlikely. Back to the topic. The frequency standards for the Cesium and Rubidium clocks are very precise, with the Rubidium clocks being a little better, however they were also more temperature sensitive. You can appreciate the difficulty keeping a clock +/- .1 degree celcius in space, where temperatures swing greatly from full-sun to being in the Earth or moon's shadow.

    The signal leaves the satellite and travels to your GPS unit at the speed of light. The ionosphere and other atmospheric conditions will refract or delay the signal, but that can be corrected. SO if the satellites saying, "I'm HERE at this TIME," and you know the speed it traveled, you can determine the distance (roughly) from you to the satellite. 3 satellites give you 2-D position, and the 4th adds altitude. You actually triangulate to two (2) points. One on the earth, and the other about 22,000 miles in outer space. That outerspace point is thrown away. Today even the cheapest GPS units can track multiple satellites at the same time (early units tracked one at a time) and throw away some for reasons of GDOP. To get the most precise measurement, you want the Geometric Dilution of Precision (GDOP) to be the least by having the greatest angles between yourself and the satellites. If you have two satellites right next to each other (relative to your overhead view...not physically), you throw out the one that creates the narrowest angle with respect to the other satellites.

    The other post is correct, 50 is the number of satellites launched (so it would be referred to as SVN50...SVN being Satellite Vehicle Number). The operational constellation only needs 24 satellites, however we'll put additional units up in anticipation of a satellite nearing its End of Life.

    Remember....these are DoD assets...we don't give a rat's ass about businesses. Our job is to break the other guy's toys, save US lives and let the other guy die for his country.

    John

  56. Hey sounds like you came through while I was there by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 1
    I was on the floor working back in '92. There's a 1 in 5 chance I was really there when you came through (if you remember the name of the officer, I can probably tell you) as there were (and still are) 5 crews that rotate shifts.

    There is still somewhat of a push to get EU and others with their own birds up. It's funny to hear these conspiracy theorists about why we tried to block it. Using their own logic, we are trying to keep Iran from developing their own nukes because we want everyone else to buy ours....WTF? Yeah...thats it...

    No, it's because the DoD has one objective: implement the president's foreign policy and domestic defense in the most efficient means possible. If other's launch their own satellites it creates interference (EMI, RF, etc) and increases the capabilities of our enemies. You can pant and whine about our military's economic agenda, but you'll USUALLY see this from people who've never actually put on a uniform. Does it mean it never happens. Of course not. But if it does it's usually rooted out....because, again... our #1 objectives are to make the other guy die for his country, save US lives, and break the other guys toys of death.

    Did they show you the little model with the satellite rotating around the earth, keeping the Z-Axis nadir pointing, and the arrays tracking the spot-light (pseudo sun)?? I always thought that was really cool with working, tracking arrays. John

    PS. No, there's not 50 operational birds. There's a min of 24 and sometimes there's 26 or so, for planned End of Life. The satellites are spun up for stability reasons, and then boosted out of the orbital plane.

  57. Sounds like someone involved by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 1
    Are you involved with GPS now? I flew them for the AF for awhile, but your info is obviously newer than mine. I am surprised, though, that the L5 DOT payload made it on. I remember being told in 97 that DoD was fighting it, for good reason since this is a DoD asset.

    You're right that the signal has not been degraded for a region. However, it is possible that we could do it if we REALLY wanted to. It would be a PITA for the crew working when they implemented it, but possible with scheduled SA/AS. The crew working would get a great write up for Crew of the Quarter (Year) and Performance Reports.... :-)

    We did purposly make the signal BETTER during the first Gulf War. We only had a dozen or so satellites up, with sparse coverage over the Middle East. So we took a bird that wasn't really usable, because it couldn't maintain 3-axis stabilization, and adjusted it's Z-axis to point to the Middle East, relative to it's Nadir point when intersecting with the Earth in it's orbit. This got a couple of officers (I used to remember their names) a nice write up after the war for coming up with the idea, planning it and making it happen.

    1. Re:Sounds like someone involved by spankus · · Score: 1
      I am involved....let's just pretend I'm on the inside looking out (fly them now). We made the signal better during the second gulf was as well (check out www.spaceflightnow.com 1/2 way down the page)


      It's a cool business to be in.

    2. Re:Sounds like someone involved by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 1
      So you're at the 2 SOPS at Shreiver? I was the SSO instructor at the now defunct 534th Training Squadron, Vandyland. I stayed in touch, but most of the people I trained are long gone. We had just started training IIF when I left. I occasionally see old names from Nav officers (now Payload Officers), such as Steve Hutsell and others, writing technical papers on GPS.

      I'm hoping the 148 SOPS (ANG squadron at Vandy's remote antennae) pick up the GPS back up, but I heard it might be like the 1 SOPS with local reservists. It's been over 6 years since I ran a checklist, but I still remember the pre-pass, and contact checklists by heart. I know it's changed since, but it wouldn't be hard to pick up again. John

    3. Re:Sounds like someone involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      beadwindow

    4. Re:Sounds like someone involved by spankus · · Score: 1
      Hutsell!!!!
      He's a trip! If you haven't seen him lately he's got hair past his shoulders...still works at 2SOPS for Analysis on clocks. I'm separating really quick, but its been a good tour for me.


      If you can get involved with the 148 SOPS go for it, but I hear the thing they're supposed to do is being delayed. It would be cool to have the backup out there though. Pre-Pass by heart...you're much more devoted than me.

    5. Re:Sounds like someone involved by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 1
      Checklist 1-8 Step 3 (SSO) if I remember right. contact svnxx,ascng,XXXXa011,a,act hee hee, I'll never forget it. HQ'd every eval (except the special eval after getting DQ'd for falling asleep. You can't HQ on a special.)

      Tell Steve (Hutsell) that former SrA (now 2nd LT) John Schubert says "Hi!!!". I'm in the 148th now, however I might not be....seems things have changed with my civilian employer and I really can't afford to leave work for 4 monhts to go through USMT, Milstar school, and then upgrade training. I formerly worked for Sprint, who would have paid for my entire time gone, however my new employer won't.

      Good luck on after-military. If you're staying in the 'Springs I'm sure there's plnety of jobs.

  58. Nuclear Detection System (NUDET) by morcheeba · · Score: 1

    yep, gps has nuclear blast detectors. I'm not sure if it's the original purpose, but the two roles are very similar (both requiring accurate high-altitude clocks and a little trig).

    I programmed for an old TRANSIT reciever and it's amazing these things ever worked. Basically, you had to listen for the satellite's signal and follow the doppler over the course of about 10 minutes. Knowing the orbit and the doppler profile would put you at one of two places on the earth, and you had to estimate from your previous position to tell which one. And you couldn't move a significant distance in those 10 minutes.

    1. Re:Nuclear Detection System (NUDET) by thogard · · Score: 1

      Original purpose or not, congress funded Navstar so if (when?) things got bad in Europe they could verify what side of the line it started on.

      Modern GPS recivers do the same thing with doppler but they aren't floowing its doppler, you have to guess at it just so you can find the singal. And you need to do that with all the sats you want to listen to and at a high rate of speed (if the reciever is going into an aircraft)

  59. Re:US controlling GPS by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    SA has nothing to do with maneuvers and wasting fuel.

    GPS transmits two sets of position data. One is encrypted with a code which only the US military has, and the other is not.

    The military channel gets full precision data all the time.

    The civilian channel currently gets the same full precision data. However, on command the satellites can begin introducing small random errors into this data, which can throw off position calculations by an arbitrary distance. Differential GPS corrects for this - it involves ground stations at known locations which continuously compare their known location to what GPS measures, and broadcast continuous corrections. Of course, in a war those stations would be big targets, and the effect is only local to the station. To drop a bomb on a US target you'd need correction stations in the US. Presumably advesaries would only be able to utilize them within their own territory (these stations have to be precisely situated or it defeats the whole purpose of having them).

    In any case, if the USA wants to put errors in GPS measurements they just have the satellites transmit bogus information - they don't change their orbits.

    Note that GPS does NOT measure the location of a satellite in the sky (azimuth and elevation and all that). It measures the travel time of a signal from the satellite to the GPS unit. This creates a circle on the surface of the earth a fixed distance from the satellite. If you have three satellites you get three circles with only one intersection. However, if the satellites purposely transmit incorrect times then the circles do not intersect exactly - giving an approximate location. A GPS satellite is basically just an atomic clock transmitting the current time to high precision in a known orbit.

  60. Re:US controlling GPS by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    I don't think this is true. I think that most troops brought their own civilian GPS units because they were smaller and lighter and generally more feature-filled. And getting your hands on one is probably like being in a big company where sysadmins who need to monitor systems don't get blackberry's while CEOs who don't even read their own email do...

  61. Almost by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    In addition, you need to know the precise location of your GPS antenna. This can be tough. The necessary accuracy for your reference position usually require a receiver more expensive than one capable of providing the pseudoranges from which differential corrections can be calculated.

    (These days, it's possible to get a receiver capable of providing pseudoranges relatively cheaply, although sometimes in an undocumented fashion, for example obtaining pseudoranges from Garmin receivers via gar2rnx. Surveying your antenna location to within millimeters is a different story... Cheap receivers cycle-slip often enough that obtaining a millimeter-accuracy solution can be very difficult.)

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?