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Senator Leahy Calls for RFID Technology Hearings

securitas writes "Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy has called for congressional hearings into radio frequency identification (RFID) technology. The comments were made Mar. 23 to the Georgetown University Law Center's conference on video surveillance technology during a speech titled 'The Dawn of Micro Monitoring: Its Promise, And Its Challenges To Privacy And Security'. Leahy suggested that RFIDs may require federal regulation to ensure the public's privacy rights. Leahy is quoted as saying that the combination of RFIDs, sophisticated databases, networks and the Internet means that, 'We are on the verge of a revolution in micro-monitoring - the capability for the highly detailed, largely automatic, widespread surveillance of our daily lives.' He goes on to say that, 'We need clear communication about the goals, plans, and uses of the technology, so that we can think in advance about the best ways to encourage innovation, while conserving the public's right to privacy.' (Leahy's RFID speech transcript)"

218 comments

  1. RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by onyxruby · · Score: 5, Interesting

    RFID is good technology, with a lot of potential and a number of legitimate uses. Unfortunately it can also put big brother in your pocket, shoes, shirt and pants. If they could do just three key elements in a law I think it could flourish without privacy fears and diminished abuse potential.

    Only allow people to scan for RFID that match a white list of your own property or property in your care with your consent. Any reading not on a white list must be discarded. Once an item is sold it is no longer their property and must be removed from the white list - with todays pos tech this would be absurdly easy to implement. This would allow retailers and distribution centers to use it for their own logistical and loss prevention purposes. This would also keep people minding their own business - literaly.

    IF an RFID tag is on an item it should be prominently labeled, and be removable without destruction, devaluation or vandalism to the item that is attached to. For example, someone here asked a bit back, why not just cot off the tag? Answer - some clothing is now comes tagless.

    Make sure that warranties and returns do not require RFID tags in order to be upheld. Someone should not be required to keep an RFID tag on something valuable just because they may have to get warranty service on it someday. As more powerful readers (blackmarket /will/ produce them) come about, they would become a neon broadcast flag to theives.

    1. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by pinkUZI · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Isn't it true that most scenarios currently being considered by retailers involve removing/disabling the tags at checkout? If so, then how is this any more of a privacy concern than barcodes and credit card machines which are already in place?

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    2. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by seaswahoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Someone should not be required to keep an RFID tag on something valuable just because they may have to get warranty service on it someday.

      That's right. Warranty service should be redeemable on a product regardless. However, there are some manufacturers (Netgear comes to mind) who require that you register with them or you don't have a warranty.

      It's just like having an RFID tag, imo...

      RFID is good technology, with a lot of potential and a number of legitimate uses.

      Gotta agree with you there. Some of the potential applications where I think it will be VERY much welcomed include inventory control and shipping (imagine if your FedEx package is tracked by computer instead of having to be barcode scanned)...

      Every technology has its upsides and downsides, good uses and bad uses.

    3. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by cuban321 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree. My worry is not so much monitoring as it is public safety. How do I know twenty years from now my girlfriends/SOs necklace/ring won't have an RFID tag in it saying what it is and how much it's worth. Some shady character comes along, uses his blackmarket scanner to figure out if she's worth mugging and then mugs her.

      I know it's a stretch, and I know most petty muggers won't have RFID scanners...

      Another example: What's to stop a car jacker from stealing my laptop out of my car while I get a drink or pay for my gas? If he knows it's there then he knows he'll get something more than a few CDs worth out of breaking into my car...

      Daniel

    4. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by onyxruby · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have heard this, but then this is to be optional from what I understand. If the tag is destroyed at checkout, that's great. However until we get something requiring it, the public has to take it on faith, and I just don't trust the marketing types. Voluntary guidelines for retailers are just that - voluntary. Less scrupulous retailers will opt out, and thieves will take advantage. If it isn't in writing, codified as law, it's meaningless.

    5. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by Gildor · · Score: 2, Funny

      >Unfortunately it can also put big brother in >your pocket, shoes, shirt and pants.

      That gives a whole new meaning to "wardrobe malfunction"...

    6. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by plover · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Isn't it true that most scenarios currently being considered by retailers involve removing/disabling the tags at checkout?

      No, it's not true.

      Retailers are exploring the potential for returning items based on the RFID tag. That requires the tag to remain active while in the customer's possession.

      The benefits of using a durable tag are obvious: the retailer won't require a receipt for the return, as it can simply look up the history of the item, figure out how much you paid for it, and whether you paid cash, check or credit card, and return your money correctly.

      The drawbacks are unknown (or at least known only to some privacy wonks who are routinely lumped in with the tinfoil hat brigade,) and that's what Senator Leahy says he wants to explore. Right now, major U.S. retailers are looking to invest lots of money in RFID. Once that expensive infrastructure is in place, they will fight hard to keep it. Senator Leahy wants to make sure that these retailers start out with a long-term acceptable solution, rather than wage a battle later.

      I find myself mostly agreeing with the Senator Leahy on many issues. He's certainly the most tech-savvy Senator in the nation, and he appears "geek-friendly" in my eyes. I just wish he was the Senator from my state.

      --
      John
    7. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by GAVollink · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Check the last paragraph that you replied to there. I do believe that RFIDs will probably follow (and most likely include) UPC info. That's to say that if I'm looking for a wide-screen TV, I might just ping through your walls for it - check a UPC database for brands, and know what house to Target.

      Before a criminal would actually have to look through your window!

      Of course, there are much more important points as well. How embarrassing would it be if someone pinged RFIDs for medications or adult toys?

      This is stuff that could directly effect government people personally. Wait till the press get's hold of RFID codes for things that congressmen own? Imagine political camaigns run on, "Would you trust your vote in congress to someone who keeps 400 adult videos in his living room?

      Don't worry - Congress is just as suspicious of the Press as the Press is suspicious of Congress. RFID privacy laws will be passed - and probably appended to wire-tapping laws.

    8. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      I've seen these rules posted before, propably by you, and I think they're are great idea.

      Perhaps you should send Mr. Leahy an email/letter/giant billboard in front of his house?

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    9. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by seaswahoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, ideally, RFIDs should be disabled on property after purchase by the consumer, otherwise yes, a lot of information would be leaking.

    10. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by GAVollink · · Score: 1
      As this post points out, that's not likely to to be what really happens.

      There are scenarios about what the retailers know they can get away with, and scenarios that include what the retailers actually want.

    11. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      Yup, I pretty much copied what I wrote a few days ago. Plagarizing yourself is ok I think. I even nabbed my typo on "cot". It seemed relevant the other day, but the comment entered late and didn't get too far. I just went and refined it a bit and reposted. As for contacting Mr Leahy, I think I will, I tend to like to contact my congress-critters anyways. He isn't mine, so a lot of time that means their office doesn't much want to hear from you (Orrin Hatch comes to mind), but I'll try anyways.

    12. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by seaswahoo · · Score: 1

      Interesting...now that's just stupid and dangerous from a security point of view.

    13. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by roystgnr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only allow people to scan for RFID that match a white list of your own property or property in your care with your consent. Any reading not on a white list must be discarded. Once an item is sold it is no longer their property and must be removed from the white list - with todays pos tech this would be absurdly easy to implement.

      And even easier to circumvent. That's like making everyone's root password be "passw0rd", but then requiring peoplle to use ssh clients which will only connect to the "white list" of other computers they have accounts on. You might prevent accidental abuse this way, but the false sense of security will just make malicious abuse easier.

    14. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by sirdude · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Security/privacy concerns aside, I personally believe that RFID is another in a series of technologies that I term as "Frenetic and lazy tech". While I'm sure that there are many wonderful and groundbreaking practical uses (for e.g. in medicine etc.), once these technologies find their way into our daily lives, it's just going to be one more way for all of us to cut down on social interaction, exercise, etc. etc.

      With everybody in this generation expecting everything to be done "now, right now and right from where my arse is parked", RFID's aren't exactly going to help. Already, the current generation isn't one known for it's patience. I shudder to think what people in 30-40 years time are going to be like.

      As an aside, it would be interesting to see what positions (of employment) have pretty much completely disappeared in the last 40 years. Switchboard operators, "shoe-shiners" etc. and now it seems supermarket checkout staff as well..

    15. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by dauvis · · Score: 1

      Once an item is sold it is no longer their property and must be removed from the white list - with todays pos tech this would be absurdly easy to implement.

      As often as I get beeped while leaving my local WallyMart because the clerk "forgot" to disable the security tags, I think you're assuming too much.

    16. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by nomadic · · Score: 3, Funny

      I agree. My worry is not so much monitoring as it is public safety. How do I know twenty years from now my girlfriends/SOs necklace/ring won't have an RFID tag in it saying what it is and how much it's worth. Some shady character comes along, uses his blackmarket scanner to figure out if she's worth mugging and then mugs her.

      Or, even worse, she gets a blackmarket scanner and finds out that the necklace you bought her is really a cubic zirconium...

    17. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      When a RFID reader "pings" an RFID tag, it will sing out. They could add a TheseRNotTagsULookingFor() function but that's going to have to read the tag and do the same db lookup.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    18. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by zanderredux · · Score: 1

      But... how do you think such laws can be effectively enforced?

    19. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by onyxruby · · Score: 1
      Hm, reliant upon a wally world cashier, never a good idea in any book. The principal I proposed is still good, but I make no claims to its ability to withstand human stupidity. Or as my favorite Einstein quote puts it:
      You know, two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.
    20. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by whereiswaldo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If it isn't in writing, codified as law, it's meaningless.

      I believe that codifying restrictions into law is only part of a solution. The technology itself needs to be produced so that breaking the law is very difficult. Otherwise, read up on "how to boil a frog".

      Examples:

      - make RFID tags biodegradable

      - make RFID tags readable only a certain number of times before they stop working

      On the law side, prohibit the correlation of RFID and any of a person's personal information. The tag should only be used for inventory purposes.

      Still, with such a powerful technology, accepting it at all makes me nervous. Accepting RFID with limitations is still the first step towards acceptance without limitations. Perhaps this the stage of "pacifying the public".

    21. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Sounds good... get a RFID tag programmer, watch for sales, go buy stuff on sale, re-program tag with yesterdays details, return to store.

      Rinse, Repeat.

      Don't think it'll take many of these scams to kill that idea...

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    22. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by VargrX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      so sayeth whereiswaldo:

      Examples:
      - make RFID tags biodegradable
      nice idea, but how do you embed the ciruitry into something that won't either a) think that the circuit is food, or b) evolve the biomass into something non-degradable by normal means?

      - make RFID tags readable only a certain number of times before they stop working
      this implie's a powersource that could concievably be larger/bulkier than the tag itself, adding circuitry for logic, et al.
      all in all, a more expensive proposition.

      Nice idea's, but, IMHO, I don't see either of these examples happening.

      --
      Sometimes people just have to learn and adapt to change, it is one of the requirements of being a living thing.
    23. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by weileong · · Score: 1

      Once an item is sold it is no longer their property and must be removed from the white list - with todays pos tech this would be absurdly easy to implement

      the problem is, how do you enforce this? is there going to be a POS-terminal-checking task force that will conduct surprise random spot checks (think WMD inspection teams?) at Wal-Marts across the country?

    24. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      Yup, and the store will typically even install them. You know those little gates you pass through on your way out of a store for shoplifting? All you do is change those to have RFID scanners in the them and they'll go off if a match is made to the white list. The stores will do this as an anti-shoplifting measure of their won, easy solve, that one.

    25. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by dogfart · · Score: 1
      How embarrassing would it be if someone pinged RFIDs for medications or adult toys?

      Adult toys are illegal in some places in the US! See This Findlaw article . Facing arrest in the state of Texas is a bit worse than embarassing. Same with prescription medicines, some of which are controlled substances. Do you want to be harassed because you put a few aspirin in an old vicodin bottle? Or because you crossed a state line and what was legal in your home is now illegal?

      --

      "dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"

    26. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by Kombat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's absurd. RFIDs are passive, meaning they have very, very short range (a few inches, couple feet at most). To "scan" a house from the street, you'd need an enormous transmitter/receiver combo, which would generate a tremendous amount of RF noise that would be sure to be noticed in a neighborhood.

      Secondly, even if you did manage to get the RFID tag number, how exactly would you "check a UPC database?" FYI, these tags are not like UPC codes. UPC codes are not unique. The first 5 (4?) digits of a UPC code identify the manufacturer, the remaining 5 identify the product. For example, 78492 means "GE", and 87369 means "Washing Machine, model GE T705" (warning: completely fake data, for illustrative purposes only). That info is not that hard to find.

      But with RFID, however, each individual washing machine has its own number. So if you scanned a house with an RFID-embedded TV, you'd get a number back, something like 823657489101048392733583323634. I suppose its possible that some of the digits in there would designate a publicly-available manufacturer (so you'd know that whatever you just scanned, it's a "Toshiba" something-or-other), but you wouldn't know whether it was a bigscreen plasma TV, or an alarm clock, unless you had access to Toshiba's private database, which you would not.

      "I'm sure it could be hacked into," you say, but OK, if you're rich enough to drive around a neighborhood with a massive, expensive RFID transmitter/receiver, and savvy enough to break into company databases, why are you bothering to steal TV's? Why not break into their Credit Card database instead of their Product database, and save yourself some hassle? Or better yet, wouldn't someone like that likely already be gainfully employed?

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    27. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by GAVollink · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Such laws can only be enforced if the law prohibits selling items that include individually identifyable remote or proximity tracking capabilities without explicit labelling.

      Cell phones are trackable and individually identifyable. The law shouldn't prohibit sale of Cell Phones. What if you want to buy RFID tracking clothing for your children (lowjack for kids) - fine - but label the item as having said device. Where the device does not explitly depend on the tracking functionality, instructions on how to disable the functionality without damaging your product should be included. (Squeeze this location with a pliar until you hear a faint click, or snap).

      O.K. If Wal-Mart want's to sell every piece of merchanise with a permanant RFID tag included - fine, but label each and every item with a sticker or a hanging tag. (I believe their shotgun sales will drop through the floor pretty quick if they do).

      Basically, if you have a law that blanket says, that you can sell this without labelling, but can't USE the data - well then you've got a wiretap style law, that can't be enforced; RFID whitelists are too difficult to enfoce (it simply won't happen). It will become a private wiretap issue. Where this scenario, "We know the murderer was in the house, because we got an RFID reading from his sneakers , pants, shirt and underwear," becomes indamissable in court.

      If I record my phone calls, nothing can be done to enforce the laws against it - so long as I don't "directly use" those recordings. Same will be true for RFID data readings. Privacy issues will abound anyway - but if I'm buying stuff that can be tracked, let me know.

    28. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by caseydk · · Score: 2, Interesting


      One of the currently discussed uses is embedding them into license plates on your car.

      Helps prevent theft, right? Well, possibly.

      Alternatly, you could stick the readers on Interstate overpasses and read who goes by when.

      With multiple overpasses, it becomes very easy to establish what your average speed is during that time.

      "Thank you, and a speeding ticket has been mailed to your home."

      Many cities already have Red Light Cameras which do essentially the same thing.

    29. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, I'm against RFIDs!!! I just got my license back yesterday (lost for speeding) and it was suspended for nearly a year! I don't need them to have newer better ways of giving me tickets!!

    30. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by dolphinling · · Score: 1

      Billboards are illegal here in Vermont. (Thank god)

      A letter would be great, in fact I'm planning on writing him one myself. (And I've met him in person before, so if he remembers me maybe that will mean something better! w00t!)

      --
      There are 11 types of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
    31. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are a number of problems. Only a fairly small part of them happen at the retailer. It is not, really, Wal-Mart I'm worried about.

      "Wal-Mart" can be dealt with easily. You simply pass law that says they cannot store/associate any personally identifying information along with product identifiers, or collect said identifiers in any manner as to create an identifiable record. Set the penalty right up there with bopoing an 8 year old. Corporate death penalty - first offense. Thus, without objection, the "Wal-Mart" problem IS solved.

      The bigger issue is the Government itself. They are already building a host of tracking systems into our lives. They take pictures of our license plates at every toll booth, for example. Some "red light/speed" cameras can take pictures of every car, noting any offence in the frame and on the data record.

      So, now, instead of taking a picture of your plate at the intersection they do a RFID collection scan. Sure you may not be wearing your underware, but we have your shoes, shirt, wallet, etc., etc., all of which is surely a signiture of you. The trouble is, we've so eroded our basic rights against illegal searches - that we've convinced ourselves (legally) that your underware is not YOU and your underware has NO rights (even if you are in it).

      That's the trouble. And it is MOST unlikely the Government is, even remotely, willing to return the basic rights against illegal search back to the people.

    32. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by Feztaa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I work at a gas station, and we have an average sized cigarette rack. Every night, before close, the supervisor has to count all the cigarettes (often this is me). It's a tremendous pain in the ass, there are usually around 1,000 packs of smokes on any given day.

      Now, just think if those smokes all had RFID's embedded in the plastic wrapping. Then I could just wave a little wand, and get the readout. It would reduce errors in counting, and it would be faster, too. And if the RFID tag was in the plastic wrapping and not inside the pack of smokes itself, it would get discarded when the customer unwraps the plastic, so nobody would be able to track him with it after he left the store.

      So, I guess you could say: I, for one, welcome our new RFID overlords.

      Just make sure that all the RFID tags are either a) embedded in the packaging of the product, not the product itself, or b) as a sticker in a prominent location on the product when it has no such packaging. That way the stores get all the benefits of the increased inventory controls of RFID, and the public won't have to worry about any of the potential abuses.

      This would also be a great step in the direction of removing all those unsightly barcodes from everything :)

    33. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 1

      Do those scenarios cover the case where I simply microwave everything I buy?

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    34. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by rah1420 · · Score: 1

      Secondly, even if you did manage to get the RFID tag number, how exactly would you "check a UPC database?" FYI, these tags are not like UPC codes. UPC codes are not unique. The first 5 (4?) digits of a UPC code identify the manufacturer, the remaining 5 identify the product. For example, 78492 means "GE", and 87369 means "Washing Machine, model GE T705" (warning: completely fake data, for illustrative purposes only). That info is not that hard to find.

      First of all, it sure isn't. Hard to find, that is. Just type a UPC code (all 12 digits, please) into Google and see what happens.

      Secondly, although the UPC code is on the wane, in its place is the GTIN, the Global Trade ID number, and its electronic cousin, the EPC (Electronic Product Code.) I've already had retailers ask me what our company's time frame is for implementing such codes. Hint: It ain't far off.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
    35. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by plover · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually many of the RF security tags in use today have a fusible component. When the item is sold, the cashier runs it over the "burn pad". It emits a substantially higher power level of RF signal than the door readers. The high level of RF being pumped through that tiny antenna causes a fusible link to actually burn out, rendering the tag "dead." No logic involved, and it's ultra-cheap off the shelf technology that's in widespread use today.

      These RF security tags are recognizable as square paper-backed foil stickers about 3cm on a side. They sometimes have a fake barcode printed on them as camoflauge.

      There is another completely different RF technology security tag that uses a rectangular plastic housing about 1cm x 4 cm x 2 mm thick. It contains a series of metal foil plates that are arranged to resonate at the RF frequencies of the door transmitters. They are deactivated by bringing a magnet to the tag causing the foil in the housing to shift to an adhesive target. This separates the metal plates which prevents it from resonating at its original frequency.

      --
      John
    36. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by plover · · Score: 1
      The courts have already pretty firmly established that once you go out in public, you are out in public and do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in many ways. For example, you can be arrested if a cop sees you standing on a sidewalk smoking crack.

      However, when you're in your house the courts are on your side. They have established in several cases that the government cannot "scan" your house looking for evidence of illegal activities. They can sift through your trash, and peer through open windows (with high powered telescopes) but they cannot use infrared detectors to search for a basement full of grow lights (and the supposed pot growing beneath them.) I suspect that case would be good precedent for preventing the police from "war-scanning" neighborhoods looking for RF tags belonging to reported shoplifted merchandise.

      If they had a warrant, however, they could scan whatever they pleased.

      --
      John
    37. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by GAVollink · · Score: 1

      I, for one, don't want to microwave my PDA or my Personal cassette deck.

    38. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by Bombcar · · Score: 1

      Netgear only makes you think registration is necessary. It is not. You can use a proof of purchase instead.

    39. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by GAVollink · · Score: 1
      RFIDs are enormously large numbers - and I have little doubt that (for Wal-Mart and the like) to make use of them, they will probably be linked with UPC (or similar code) in a logical way. Part of the number, or a simple mathematical jump within.

      Second, RFID ranges of 20 feet are not difficult to obtain, which for most homes, you'd get pings back from everything save the items in the most inner rooms.

      Finally - the only glimmering hope that I see is the fact that RFID tags have some major standard hurtles to overcome. Including a biggie - inability to guarantee that a transponder really is globally unique.

      Of course, in technology - all hurtles will be overcome enough so that the technology will be adopted with it's current faults in-tact.

      I was particularly interested to find out that RFID standards have been in development since 1996.

    40. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by GAVollink · · Score: 1
      I found this at RFID News.com. I think this may make the microwave idea moot.

      "When questioned about the durability of the transponder, Trovan explained some of the tests the transponder has successfully passed. The tests included: repeated shot blasting, heated to 300 degrees Fahrenheit for 30 minutes, dropped into liquid nitrogen, exposed to high doses of radiation and subjected to 100,000 volts of electricity."

    41. Re: RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by townmouse · · Score: 1

      That's absurd. RFIDs are passive, meaning they have very, very short range (a few inches, couple feet at most).
      Western spies (I think it was the CIA) used passive RF devices for audio eavesdropping in the 1980s, enabling them to hear officials' conversations from down the street. (The advantages of passive devices were the lack of incriminating wires, and of radiation when they weren't in use.) I imagine technology has improved since then.

      To "scan" a house from the street, you'd need an enormous transmitter/receiver combo, which would generate a tremendous amount of RF noise that would be sure to be noticed in a neighborhood.
      I'd be surprised if RFIDs operated in the same frequency band as, say, television, but even if they did, a few seconds of interference is not going to make everyone assume there are burglars on the prowl. And if you're trying to smear someone, why hide the fact that you've gathered information about them?

      I suppose its possible that some of the digits in there would designate a publicly-available manufacturer (so you'd know that whatever you just scanned, it's a "Toshiba" something-or-other), but you wouldn't know whether it was a bigscreen plasma TV, or an alarm clock, unless you had access to Toshiba's private database, which you would not.
      You would if you borrow, stole, or politely requested a copy of the catalogue Toshiba would have to distribute to all its retailers if they're going to get any use out of the system. Or you could just scan some Toshiba products. The code would almost certainly share most of its digits with other TVs of the same batch, not quite so many with the same model, the same product line, and then with audiovisual equipment in general.

      OK, if you're rich enough to drive around a neighborhood with a massive, expensive RFID transmitter/receiver...
      Even a relatively long-range scanner used for stocktaking in warehouses shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars. I can't think of any expensive components that it would require. If (as you imply) it's rather more expensive than a car, it wouldn't be marketable in the first place.

      --
      Ask me if I've been required to disclose any crypto keys.
    42. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by filmsmith · · Score: 1

      With multiple overpasses, it becomes very easy to establish what your average speed is during that time.

      "Thank you, and a speeding ticket has been mailed to your home."

      Many cities already have Red Light Cameras which do essentially the same thing.


      And many communities have already destroyed the legality of those by stating that legal documents must be presented to the offender in person otherwise it's not legally binding.

      Until that technicality is changed, your proposition falls by the wayside.

      fs

    43. Re:RFID is good tech with great abuse potential by caseydk · · Score: 1


      Not everywhere....

      http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20040329-010513-2 42 7r.htm

  2. Wow, a politician that isn't clueless.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hopefully, any legislation proposed on protecting privacy can be passed without goobering it up with unrelated riders...

    1. Re:Wow, a politician that isn't clueless.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Politicians can't pass legislation without making deals in backrooms that benefit not only their pockets, but those of their special interest lobbyists and state contractors. It just wouldn't be the American way!

    2. Re:Wow, a politician that isn't clueless.... by GAVollink · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Remember members of Congress are consumers to. Because privacy issues effect them directly (think National Enquirer reporters sneaking around politician's homes with RFID scanners**), it will pass, and probably more quickly than we might think.

      The problem is always there someone who's doesn't fully understand the issues will amend related riders that use specific examples - making the whole thing easy to work around.

      --

      **I use National Enquirer here because they have broken real political stories. They are looking for relationships, personal info and that sort of thing, and find something that's worthy of 'real news'. When this happens, they typically sell the story to the Miami Herald, when they break something of political substance.

    3. Re:Wow, a politician that isn't clueless.... by mu-sly · · Score: 1

      WHAT!!!??? Do you seriously expect us to believe that politicians are just the tainted pawns of large wealthy corporations?

  3. There now. Don't you feel better? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He's calling for hearings. That means that the government is looking out for you. Right?

    Or is the government just making gestures so that you will feel better while, they don't really do anything at all? Sorta like airport security.

    Have you voted?

    1. Re:There now. Don't you feel better? by pinkUZI · · Score: 1


      I agree with that! It is likely that Leahy's comments have little behind them. Most likely result is lengthy exploratory committees and possibly even some minor legislation. But think of all the /. voters he's just won over!!!
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    2. Re:There now. Don't you feel better? by fwankypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm from Vermont, so I have a bit of experience with Senator Leahy. He is legit. His policy is based (predominantly) on respecting the Constitution and the rights of his constiuents. He doesn't need to "win votes" - he's currently on his fifth term and I don't see any real possibility of him losing the next election should he decide to run again.

      It's nice to think that there isn't anyone in Government who really _does_ care about his/her citizens, so that we can just say "aww, screw it, what I do/say doesn't matter anyways." But there _are_ people, like Senator Leahy, who really do care about the people in this country.

      --
      The time of day is 29:33.
    3. Re:There now. Don't you feel better? by danheskett · · Score: 1

      I agree with you about Leahy being "legit". I am not from Vermont but a close by New England state. I've followed his career for a long time, and frankly you have nailed him.

      He does "really care" about his citizens.

      On the hand, I am not such a big fan of his politics. He has a bent in him that goes from "care" to "nannying".

      He was the sponsor of the 2002 farm bill amendment creating something of a national milk cartel. Of course, it is a popular thing for his voters. It helps their struggling farms. But propping up milk prices to help the few dairy farmers at the expense of millions of milk drinkers? Somewhat questionable. It's not good policy, but rather, a patchwork to help him help his dairy farming base.

    4. Re:There now. Don't you feel better? by fwankypoo · · Score: 1

      Your point about milk is certainly valid, but I have to agree with Sen. Leahy's point of view. There are only a few viable industries left in VT, and he's trying to preserve one of them. Even with the farm bill independently owned dairy farms are going the way of other agricultural businesses here in the northeast; that said, Leahy's trying to preserve dairy farming in VT, which we need just as much as the Ski Industry and general tourism.

      As an aside, this hits on one of the real difficulties in the New England states (especially VT, NH and ME). Namely, how do they get new industries to come to them? Agriculture doesn't work - almost anything you imagine can be grown more easily, in larger quantities in the the midwest or the south. Industry doesn't have much incentive either, everything is being outsourced to foreign countries, let alone a small state with a socialist bend to it;) None of them have a notable tech. sector ether.

      All of this comes together to rationalize (even if you still disagree with it) agressive defense of existing businesses.

      --
      The time of day is 29:33.
    5. Re:There now. Don't you feel better? by danheskett · · Score: 1

      I agree that trying to stem the flow of jobs from the Northeast is important, however, remember that senators are not in DC to watch out for their state individually but as part of the larger whole.

      Frankly, I'd rather see a direct handout to farmers rather than price controls. Price controls damage all consumers. And really, it's not right to punish millions to help a few. When that formula is applied to the favor of the rich we complain. We need to remember that is also wrong to hurt millions to help a few - even if they are poor.

      Frankly, as far as ME, NH and VT go it is an interesting mix. ME and VT are suffering hard. NH however is growing twice as fast as the neighboring southern Maine area. VT's economic base is shrinking. Meanwhile places like Nashua and Manchester are booming - adding new jobs, new busines and even expanding their meger industrial base. Even small townish Concord is doing well. Why? You joke about ME and especially VT's socialist bent - and that's probably a big part of the problem. ME citizens have the highest tax burden in the nation, and VT isn't far behind. With Maine, NH, VT all very close to each other - and all similiar in racial, social, and landscape makeup - and with Maine being #1, Vermont being #12, and New Hampshire being #49 in tax burden, is it any wonder why NH is doing much better than it's neighbors?

      I guess what I am saying is that agreesive defense of exisiting businesses is a patch, a fancy of last resort. And frankly, it's one that VT has gotten itself into.

  4. I suggest (just to get this out of the way now) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... investing in companies that produce aluminum foil and copper mesh.

    1. Re:I suggest (just to get this out of the way now) by chef_raekwon · · Score: 1

      is this leahy guy the same guy that runs the trailer park? you know, the guy who walks around with a high ball glass of rye, and is hammered all day?

      (this is a Canadian Joke. if you dont get it, forget it.)

      --
      We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
  5. I like RFID by USAPatriot · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I think the hysteria on slashdot over RFID is so overblown. This technology is just another technology that has good uses and bad uses.

    Most people don't particularly care that they can potentially be tracked with their purchases. It's already happening now, and the world hasn't come to an end. Bar codes and their scanners hasn't made life worse for anybody.

    It's funny to see slashdot, home of tech geeks turn into luddites over some things.

    --

    Slashdot Moderation: From positive to terrible in 2 "insightful" posts.

    1. Re:I like RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tech geeks turn into luddites over some things

      Perhaps because they see the potential of the little bastards. And, BTW, is your argument so weak that you need to call an opposing view "hysteria"?

    2. Re:I like RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
      It's funny to see slashdot, home of tech geeks turn into luddites over some things.
      And with good reason: the Luddites had a valid argument and were correct in their protest. The society they grew up in made them commit large amounts of their time to gaining expertise in a particular trade, so they were unemployable if that trade vanished. Therefore, in return for that, they expected reasonable treatmentwhen new technology was introduced - say, a pension scheme for people put out of work. Instead, all the profits were grabbed by the mill owners. Technology is not a panacea, and new technology always requires care and consideration in its use.
    3. Re:I like RFID by YanceyAI · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You're wrong. I consider myself an average American and I'm concerned about targeted marketing. I'm concerned about the advertising my child is exposed to, about the way McDonald's sucks our children in with bright colors and playgrounds so that I have to be the bad guy when I say "no", and the way television turns commercials into cartoons to suck in new consumers.

      I do not want marketers to know anything more than they already do about my online browsing habits, or worse, my personal hygene and dietary preferences,including what kind of cereal my three year old eats...

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    4. Re:I like RFID by Entrope · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I make most of my small ($100) purchases with cash. How do bar codes and scanners make me traceable for those? I do not have a bar code tattooed on my forehead, and most bar codes are on packaging, tags, or other things I do not keep with the item I buy. Once I remove the bar code, it becomes useless for tracking the item or me.

      RFID, on the other hand, works at range and without a direct line of sight. That is a major selling point for RFID over bar codes (the other would be that you don't need a particular orientation to receive the signal). When an RFID tag is embedded in clothes, I become much more traceable. If I am already wearing or carrying an active RFID tag, somebody can trace it back to find my identity without my permission or knowledge.

      Sure, you can argue that facial and gait recognition will make that inevitable anyway, but that technology is not ready yet and will not be practical until after RFID is deployed. RFID privacy regulations would set a precedent on how you can or cannot use other high tech means to interrogate someone's identity.

    5. Re:I like RFID by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Bar codes and their scanners hasn't made life worse for anybody.

      The difference is that bar codes can't be used from several feet away. A surveillance van can't drive down your street and catalod the contents of your home with bar codes.

      RFID isn't there yet, but I stress YET. I have been threatened by the police, I have first hand knowledge that the police are perfectly willing to threaten to frame you for a crime. If they'll threaten it, it's not a far leap to doing it. I DON'T want them to have access to what products I have in my home. If someone is assaulted with a baseball bat that was purchased at Wal Mart, and I happen to have also bought a baseball bat from Wal Mart, that gives them the perfect "in" to frame me.

      That is my concern about RFID. Barcodes don't present that problem.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    6. Re:I like RFID by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Why are you the "bad guy" when you say "no"? If you've raised your child(ren) with a consistent set of directions, they know that something like McDonalds is a "special treat". Or, are you the type of parent that thinks TV is a good babysitter? After all, why are you concerned about advertising? Your child(ren), whom you imply are quite young, shouldn't be watching that much TV that their thoughts are being formed/affected by advertising (while this can be considered my personal value judgement, exposure to one or two commercials isn't going to make a child a marketer's zombie).

      Btw, there's still a way to make sure marketers know nothing about you - use cash. No checks, no "rewards" cards, no credit cards. Every single one of those provides means of tracking you, whether they've implemented them or not. Also, don't shop in the same store all the time, or, if you're really paranoid, buy a select set of items from separate stores. (Different companies are loath to share data, however, they might sell it to third parties, so how big's your tin foil hat?)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    7. Re:I like RFID by YanceyAI · · Score: 2, Insightful
      My child gets no more than the recommended maximum of television every day, usually much less, and we have "no TV" days. Also, cash is a great idea, but it's easier if you have a three year old to reduce the number of stops (going to the bank means more time for us in the car, more gas used, less time at home with the family). Stopping at a gas station to use cash means getting my daughter out of the carseat and back in, turning 7 minutes into 15. I like my local grocery store, which is also much closer than the next store...

      Basically your advising me to drastically change my life to avoid being "spied" on, which is exactly my point. I shouldn't have to give up my individual choices and rights to satisfy the "rights" of corporate entities.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    8. Re:I like RFID by AndroidCat · · Score: 1
      Bar codes and their scanners hasn't made life worse for anybody.

      Most things I wear/carry don't have unique bar codes on them. And it's generally considered rude to run a scanner over someone's underwear without asking if you don't know them very well. And while I expect spooks and the local bar to know my name, I usually refused when the clerk at Radio Shack asked.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    9. Re:I like RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another right-wing wack-job. One of whom has had his argument torn apart by those more informed and less partisan.

      Face it. Your hero Bush and his Neo-con agenda are HISTORY. You better get that through your partisan head NOW.

      And next time, try to present a REAL argument instead of spewing dogma.

    10. Re:I like RFID by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      You are so right. In fact, I have a chemical plant that I would like to install in your back yard. Don't worry about it. It has good uses and bad uses. Just a little bit of dioxin production.

      I think it is safe to say that every geek on this site would love to play with the RFID and look forward to the day that it can be deployed. But there are others here who grew up in a "safe" time and remember past history; Love Canal, Lake Erie, FBI director Hoover, etc. None of these were planned, they just happened since so many consequences either unknown or glossed over. Personally, I like the fact that this is happening.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    11. Re:I like RFID by Kombat · · Score: 1

      I'm concerned about targeted marketing.

      Why? Isn't it a good thing? Why should they waste time, money, and paper sending me flyers telling me Tampax is on sale? Wouldn't I rather get coupons for steak? (Yes!)

      I do not want marketers to know anything more than they already do about my online browsing habits, or worse, my personal hygene and dietary preferences,including what kind of cereal my three year old eats...

      What if they used that info to send you coupons for the right brand of cereal? If your kid eats Cheerios, and they send you coupons for Shreddies (but your neighbor got the Cheerios coupons), wouldn't you rather get "targeted marketing" that could save you money, instead of random marketing for crap you don't use?

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    12. Re:I like RFID by Kombat · · Score: 1

      I make most of my small ($100) purchases with cash. How do bar codes and scanners make me traceable for those?

      Cash has serial numbers. Unless you found it on the street, you probably got that cash from a bank machine, which you accessed using your personal bank card. So they knew you had that cash. And when you guy anything electronic, they have serial numbers, so they could track that and even know which individual DVD player you bought, even though you paid cash.

      You see, all you tin-foil-hatters out there, the technology already exists to track you, if they really wanted to. But they're not. Not to that degree. You're not that important. I know it's sad, but companies, for the most part, don't care what you do every waking moment of the day. They only care about habitual big spenders, or people like you when it comes time to buy something expensive. RFID isn't going to change anything.

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    13. Re:I like RFID by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that well-targetted marketting is great for both the consumer and the company selling the product. The company gets a much higher return for their advertising dollar, and the consumer will be genuinely grateful for the deals they recieve. Everybody wins. Heck, in anything else, I'm waiting for the day when PVR boxes replace all the commercials with ones tailored to the products I buy.

      What always amuses me is when I'm watching "Adult Swim" on Cartoon Network (which is definately not kiddie-stuff), and you'll see all kinds of ads for children's toys. It's like the advertisers think "cartoon network = children" even while I'm watching an episode of Aqua Teen Hunger Force where the food items rebuild Carl's body using medical waste eyeballs.

    14. Re:I like RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But wouldnt you like it if the advertising your children saw was for stuff you approved of? Like fire RFID tags have both positive and negative uses. Expect both the positive and negative uses to be exploited. If someone thinks they can do something, they will.

    15. Re:I like RFID by tedgyz · · Score: 1

      I think the hysteria on slashdot over RFID is so overblown. This technology is just another technology that has good uses and bad uses.

      I've got two words for you: Logan's Run

      Imagine the security potential. Everyone has an RFID tag on or embedded in them. There will be checkpoints at airports, border crossings, etc. If you don't have a tag, or your database entry is flagged, then security brings you behind doors for "interrogation".

      Personally, I'm scared. Generally, I'm not a luddite, but I see a huge potential for abuse. It will all be for our own good, but freedom will be a distant memory.

      --
      "No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
    16. Re:I like RFID by YanceyAI · · Score: 1
      And perhaps if companies didn't spend so much money on marketing products to me (targeted or no), the cost and quality would be such that I'd just end up buying what I like based off my opinion of the product.

      I know. Crazy concepts like CHOICE, OPINION, DECISION MAKING, FREE THOUGHT. And I don't know about you, but 90% of the targeted marketing I get doesn't involve coupons, just BS about how cool a product is.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    17. Re:I like RFID by Toone_Town · · Score: 1

      I agree with many points that have been made in these postings, and I don't like the idea of being "secretly" traced. But being traced has its benefits as well. I really like the article Take my privacy, please - and I feel that it has some very good points.

    18. Re:I like RFID by Entrope · · Score: 1

      You see, all you tin-foil-hatters out there, the technology already exists to track you, if they really wanted to. But they're not. Not to that degree.
      They are not interested -- probably because doing what you suggest would require that the bank disclose what they are doing. Regulation E (12 CFR Part 205) requires initial disclosure of when they give customer data to third parties. You can probably imagine how long a bank would stay in business if they admitted they whored your customer data out. Thanks for playing, though.
    19. Re:I like RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Someone named "Devil Girl" is worried about being a bad parent??

    20. Re:I like RFID by cpeterso · · Score: 1


      Just wait until your cash has RFIDs. The EU is already planning this for the Euro.

  6. Finally... by TopShelf · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wow, a congressional committee is now going to weigh in! In 5 or 10 years, I'm sure they'll have something interesting to say about today's situation...

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:Finally... by marco0009 · · Score: 1

      Unless of course they move as quickly as the FCC was in supressing radio shows...

      --
      Physics makes the world go 'round.
  7. A real issue here by cluckshot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is a serious issue. The matter of someone being able to monitor everything people do will call into question all manner of legal issues and definitely needs thought before it is implemented.

    The issue of what this tech can be used for has so many deep and penetrating details. If RFID tags are in your purchace goods and you check out but they remain active as you drive down the road, can the police access the data without a search warrant? How about a marketing company checking all of the goods and seeing your travels etc. What do we do about Identity Theft here? There are so many issues that need looked into. Doubtless even if we try there are many more we have not even thought of yet.

    Civilized people are facing the choice between the individual becoming merely a tool or cog in the Commercial world of the Industrialists or if the Industrialists tools will work for the Individual. Making this decision out of ignorance is not wise.

    --
    Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    1. Re:A real issue here by millahtime · · Score: 1

      "can the police access the data without a search warrant?"

      I wouldn't be to worried about the police and RFID. I can't see there being to many illegal products with RFID tags. For some reason I can't see drugs, illegal guns, or anything else like that using RFID tags.

    2. Re:A real issue here by plover · · Score: 2, Insightful
      How about this perfectly legitimate desire of the police to use RFID?

      Picture RFID scanner at the doors of a bank, recording every RFID tag that passes through them. The bank is robbed at gunpoint. The surveillance cameras come up with a blurry photo that reveals nothing more than a guy wearing a Bill Clinton Halloween mask. But the RFID scanner recorded tennis shoes purchased from the Buffalo, Minnesota WalM*rt (credit card #12345), jeans purchased from the Buffalo Target (same credit card), underwear recorded as missing from a Gap store, a shirt custom embroidered "Dan" and sold to Bob's Bowling Team in Rockford, Minnesota. It also recorded the RFID tags bundled with the money that was handed to the thief.

      The cops will be waiting at Dan's house before he makes it home.

      Is this a "legitimate" use of RFID? Is this a privacy violation, or is it simply good police work based on the side effects of a technology being used for purposes other than which it was intended?

      Now, put the scanner on the "other door." OK, so now the cops bust Dan for bank robbery, find him with the money PLUS a pound of drugs. They ask the Buffalo and Rockford convenience stores to turn over their surveillance records for the previous week, and see Dan walk through the doors with Joe. Perhaps the gas station cameras from that time even reveal Dan and Joe exchanging a handshake. Can this be used as evidence to go to Joe's house, and perhaps find more drugs?

      --
      John
    3. Re:A real issue here by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      With the history of police contracting out traffic enforcement to companies who rigged stop lights and used cameras it probably should worry people about what the police might do.

      This isn't a case of "if you don't have anything to hide." Remember that RFID tags if spoofed could hang the wrong guy!

      The case of someone exiting a bank post robbery gives "Probable Cause." But merely scanning everyone doesn't give "Probable Cause." This has to do with how we use and access the data. The bank camera is OK to use if the bank is robbed and I don't see RFID differently. The Bank camera used to simply scan for every infraction is probably a bad idea. This idea of not being worried about what the police do regards modern technology and RFID is historically unwise. Every time police forces use technology that is new, they abuse it until restrained. It just happens this way.

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    4. Re:A real issue here by instarx · · Score: 1

      I am always amazed by the reaction from most people whenever this topic comes up on slashdot. The great worry seems to be commercialization and the ability of merchants to use targeted marketing. These are the least of my worries. RFID technology is the great wet-dream of the police state.

      In your post you recognized the potential abuse of RFID by government agencies, but you didn't go far enough. Your scenario started the tracking by police with an illegal act, when in fact the government will be able to track everyone all the time. They will be able to identify where we go, when we go, and who we go with. Agencies in the US and Great Britain already monitor practically every telephone and email message ON THE PLANET via Echelon, so getting enough computing power to monitor everyone's activities in the US won't be a big problem for them.

      By placing scanners on the street the government can easily track everyone by their clothing. They will also be able to identify who you associate with by identifying all the tags near yours, easily collecting "known associate" data on every single citizen.

      An undercover agent walking through a political rally against [your cause here] will be able to identify everyone at that rally.

      One of my worries is that this internal spying is being made possible by businesses who want to place RFID tags in everything we buy. Congress has not yet allowed a national ID card (although the current administration supports one) but an ID card will be unnecesssary when everyone carries around 5 - 10 RFID tags. Homeland Security will just piggyback on the commercial system.

  8. Contradiction by Vindictive · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "We are on the verge of a revolution in micro-monitoring - the capability for the highly detailed, largely automatic, widespread surveillance of our daily lives." And in the next sentence says: "while conserving the public's right to privacy." If I know anything, it's that it can't be both ways...

  9. This one is easy by EmagGeek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ALL RFID tags MUST be PERMANENTLY disabled BEFORE a purchased article leaves the premises of the place it was purchased.

    It would be a simple, one-sentence law that would solve the entire problem. Of course, our government would rather spend a billion dollars in pork barrel research grants in order to come to the same conclusion... I'm sure there's a Vermont think-tank that is pushing Sen. Leahy for this "investigation"

    1. Re:This one is easy by kabocox · · Score: 1

      never going to happen.
      1 reason. I make product A. I sell RFID tagged product A to wholeseller B. I'd be required to remove the tag. Wholeseller B would like the tag on it when he sells product A to retailer C. Retailer C will want the tag on it if he sells it to either retailer D, business E, or government F. Retailer D, business E, or government F would like the tags on the products for basic inventorying.
      Your simple law wouldn't useful at all except to consumer G.

    2. Re:This one is easy by 3terrabyte · · Score: 1
      The purpose of RFID's is to save corporations money. Inventory control is only one area where they RFID's can save money.

      RFID's are useful for returns, also. Not only can the item go straight back to inventory, but you wouldn't need to produce a receipt.

      But disabling RFID's at checkout would ruin that money-making benefit. This is just one of the reasons mentioned on NPR this morning.

      --

      Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?

  10. Don't think congress wants to be watched by millahtime · · Score: 1

    I doubt congress themselves would want to be watched and tracked all the time. Think of all the shady deals they have going on... now if they were tracked all the congressmen would be potentially screwed. They might be more concerned with big brother than /. users are.

    1. Re:Don't think congress wants to be watched by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Never mind watching and tracking politicians all the time. Breathalyzers just before voting would be fine.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:Don't think congress wants to be watched by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fully agree with you, people should not be allowed to drink and vote. This would eliminate about 80% of the Republicans I know :)

  11. At least they are paying attention. by BoomerSooner · · Score: 1

    It is helpful that they are starting to get an understanding of the implications. Here's to being hopeful that some decent privacy laws will be enacted.

  12. distance by enkafan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I still haven't figured out what the big deal about "tracking people's purchases" is all about. I really haven't looked into this much, but I understand that the things can't be read from more than 5 feet away. I mean, if the government is within 5ft of my refrigerator monitoring my pizza bites, I think I have much worse problems than being tracked.

    1. Re:distance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about this one? A company at CeBIT says thaey have a deal with the government of Thailand to put RFID tag in every passport. The same company is in talks with the US government about implementing this.

      This means that their system will be installed at every gate in every airport in the US.

      So what's the big deal? It can read the passport from up to 20 feet away and track it's location.

    2. Re:distance by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Why limit your concern to the government monitoring you? I would bet most doorways you go through are within five feet of your shoes, pants, shirt, wallet, etc. Wouldn't you like to know whether an RFID reader has been installed in space you traverse, and if so, what the operator does with the information?

      The government can (and should) set strict limits on what it does with RFID data it gathers. The traditional course, which I think is appropriate, is that the government puts minimal limits on behavior of private entities -- but may require disclosure in advance of that behavior.

      If a company has to put up a sign out front saying "RFID READER IN USE" with prominent notice that they share the data, customers will be much more informed about who they are doing business with.

    3. Re:distance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, unless you can easily destroy the tag, you may well end up being unable to avoid being read, analysed and tracked wherever you go once the technology becomes ubiquitious.

    4. Re:distance by 3terrabyte · · Score: 1
      First of all, readers can be made to read RFID's from much further than 5 feet.

      Second, how would you like to walk down the street, and someone read what you have in your purse/coat/wallet/bag?

      Or the most popular 'what-if': A burglar is able to get an inventory of what you have in your house by simply driving around. OOohhh... a plasma TV. Let's rob this house.

      And here's one I just thought of. What if a burglar scans your house on Monday while your whole family is at home. He pays special attention to your clothing inventory, especially all the shoes. From that day on, he/she could figure out when no one is at home, because they'll know when the clothing is not in the house... Time to break in.

      --

      Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?

    5. Re:distance by Hans+Lehmann · · Score: 1
      I still haven't figured out what the big deal about "tracking people's purchases" is all about. I really haven't looked into this much, but I understand that the things can't be read from more than 5 feet away.

      That's all well and good if the product never leaves your house. What happens when RFID tags are inserted in your shoes, clothing, credit cards, keychain, automobile..... Anytime you pass within 5 feet of a scanner, which you eventually will, your identity will be known. All they need is one item on your person that can be traced to you. Once RFID starts showing up on paper money, they'll also know the serial numbers of every bill in your wallet. If you buy something later with that cash, that transaction can then also be traced back to you.
      All those numbers picked up by the RFID scanner will not simply dissappear when you continue walking down the street. It will go into some database, whether you like it not. Any "opt-out" policies will be about as effective as opting out of spam is now. When you buy something in a store, there will be a small sign behind the register that says something like "by purchasing items at this store, the customer agrees to allow personal information to be scanned at any time, with no notice." Nearly every store will adopt this, just like nearly every grocery store has those "give up your privacy or we'll charge you twice the going price for that loaf of bread" club cards, so anyone claiming that you can just take your money elsewhere is full of it.
      The companies that capture and save your private information aren't about to give it back to you, but they'll turn it over to any lawyer or government agency without a second thought, again without notifying you. Any part of it can and will be used against you in divorce proceedings, employer/employee disagreements, civil or criminal court cases, etc.
      Still think it's not a big deal?

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    6. Re:distance by alexpage · · Score: 1

      RFID detectors can detect RFID tags from much further away. If your RFID detector operates at the maximum legally permitted power emission, then that range is about five feet. But if you want to abuse RFID for illegal purposes, you're not going to be interested in legal power emissions :)

  13. Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Lets face it, politicians only look at RFID as another form of "postage" for which to collect more taxes.

    If the true intent of his "hearings" was to vet the technology, he would have industry experts and companies that are employing RFID today go before him and his council of elders.

    What we will see (as so often is the case) is hand wringing and posturing to present this as "evil corrupt corporate" technology.

    Never mind the 3M+ dogs that already have them imbedded in their necks.
    Never mind the windfall afforded from instant package tracking and location determination it will provide.

    Leahy and crew (ala "The Sopranos") are viewing this not with the public's best interest, but, with tax revenue dollars in their eyes.

    Expect to pay 1cent per RFID tag in the next 2 years, but have to suffer under 35cents in taxes.

    Everyday, death is becoming more appealing that taxes.

  14. Public's privacy is gone; get rid of gov't/corp by egburr · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The public's (or individual's) privacy is already dead and long gone. What we need to do is mandate that all that information be open and free to everyone. Get rid of government and corporate privacy. If the governments and companies can obtain our data, we should be able to obtain theirs.

    If everyone can look up *anything* at all about *anyone*, there would probably be a lot less abuse than there is now. It's hard to blackmail someone when the information is already publically available, and when the victim could probably find something that the blackmailer wouldn't want called to the public's attention.

    As for identify theft, that's already a serious problem. We already need to find better ways to verify identity and authenticate authorization. Making all that personal data available to everyone probably won't cause an upswing in abuse; most of the people who would abuse having access to the data are already doing so.

    --

    Edward Burr
    Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
    1. Re:Public's privacy is gone; get rid of gov't/corp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Edward Burr
      eg_home@email.burr.cc

      Edward Burr
      eg_resume@email.burr.cc
      Last updated October 2, 2003
      COMPUTER SKILLS
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      WildStar Internet Services 1996-1997
      --Note--

  15. I'll lay money on it that they outlaw by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    personal RFID blockers/jammers, like a keyfob you carry that gives you a privacy zone by jamming the freq. in say a 3' dia. zone around you.

    1. Re:I'll lay money on it that they outlaw by Arngautr · · Score: 1

      They might already be illeagal.

    2. Re:I'll lay money on it that they outlaw by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that RFID tags don't broadcast all the time. They just react when pinged by a reader. A passive reader-detector would be trivial, a reader detector-detector would be extremely hard. Jamming might be as easy as wearing a few dozen tags that all answer at the same time when pinged.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    3. Re:I'll lay money on it that they outlaw by rah1420 · · Score: 1

      personal RFID blockers/jammers, like a keyfob

      Or a layer of tinfoil. :) RFID devices are, IIRC, blinded by metal.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
  16. More irritating salesmen... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Imagine when companies begin logging other stores RFID information, to monitor what types of things people are buying... Most stores will begin carrying similar items to what they see rolling in the door from competitors. I see that has the potential to limit choice, stores don't want to inventory anything that's not "popular" on a nation wide basis.

    Now the salesmen will have another tool to bother you with. There is the possibility that they could monitor competitors products rolling in the door so they can come up and say, "So, what are you looking for today. I notice you bought that shirt at Dillard's, we have a similar item over here that's even better..."

    I'd prefer the shit be deactivated totally at the register when I pay for it.

    It is nice to see that some people in the government are paying attention to what's going on. I wonder what consumer rights group contributes to his campain. :D

  17. Minor detail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    A minor detail everyone seems to be totally oblivious too from the comments in the 3 or so posts about RFID I've read. RFID tags currently and for the near term are only readable at a max of 20', hardly a usable distance for tracking people.

    One of my professors is working with Wal-Mart's RFID research group and has brought in some class 0 and 1 tags, and the smallest of the tags was about 1" wide by 4" long, not something easily missed.

    1. Re:Minor detail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go stick a new $20 bill in the microwave for 20 seconds before you tell us what you think.

    2. Re:Minor detail by boref · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      How about you actually handle an RFID tag before telling us what you think? The actual chip is quite noticable by feel and by looking at the tag. But of course I've got to be wrong and a tool of The Man, because Big Brother is watching everything we do!

      --
      --- If you can't beat them, use a heavier blunt object.
    3. Re:Minor detail by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The size issue you bring up is, I suppose (currently) valid.

      However, tracking is a real problem. The obvious place to put an RFID reader is in a store doorway, just to act as a second check to avoid shoplifting.

      More and more stores do this. Cheap and effective.

      Now, every time you walk in or out of a door, you tell the people running the store of all the items you're walking around with. That goes into a database, perhaps forever.

      Once you wear a couple of items, it becomes easy to "taint" new items. Wearing a tagged pair of jeans? Now folks know that you also own your tagged sweater. Now there's a log of where you go WRT commercial establishments anywhere, forever.

      I gotta say that *I*'m not comfortable with it. I'd like to see (a) European-style privacy laws placing limits on what RFID data can be used for, and how long kept, and (b) laws made for retailers forcing them to destroy tags at the time of purchase. If it's so easy to destroy tags, it shouldn't cost them anything to blow 'em away at checkout. Normally, I really dislike government regulation of information handling -- however, the consequences of corprate data gathering using RFID is really disturbing.

    4. Re:Minor detail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Because you don't need to handle something to know something about it... I'm willing to bet NASA knows something about the soil composition on Mars without every actually "handling" any dirt.

      By the way... Notice this:
      http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articlev iew/337 /1/1/

    5. Re:Minor detail by boref · · Score: 1

      Yeah you'd get scanned again as you left the store, to make sure you weren't shoplifting something. Same thing goes on at nearly every store around here already using different technology. Don't you think they already know what it if you're walking out the store with? All the data from the barcodes goes into a database so they can do datamining to get ideas of what products, and product groupings, sale best. At membership clubs like Sam's Club they also know WHO bought it because you have to use your membership card. I haven't seen anyone deploring that, have you?

      --
      --- If you can't beat them, use a heavier blunt object.
    6. Re:Minor detail by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 1

      They already sort of use RFID, minus the ID part, at store doorways.

      Those white plastic things stuck on everything that sets of the store alarm is a radio transmitter. Open one up with a knife sometime and look at it with a magnifying glass or microscope. The transmitter loop at the door generates an RF field that gives power to the transmitter via inductance, causing the transmitter to emit a radio frequency and set off the alarm when one passes through the loop.

      It's just a dumb, passive device but it is an RF device none the less..

      On a note, if you have someone that you want to screw with, peel one of the little buggers off something that they forget to run over the magnet and stick it in shoe of someone you want to get back at. Or hide one in their wallet, or anywhere else on thier person. You can rest assured they will have interesting times ahead next time they go to the store....

    7. Re:Minor detail by boref · · Score: 1

      Actually those work off magnetic fields, not RF.

      --
      --- If you can't beat them, use a heavier blunt object.
    8. Re:Minor detail by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 1
    9. Re:Minor detail by boref · · Score: 1

      From that link you posted, they can work both ways. All the ones I've ever seen have been of the EM variety however.

      --
      --- If you can't beat them, use a heavier blunt object.
    10. Re:Minor detail by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 1

      True. However most of the one's I've seen in use are the RF type.
      As mentioned on that page, the RF type is predominant in the US and the magnetic type is predominant in Europe..

      I suppose it's up to the retailer...

  18. Retailers and RFID by jrsimmons · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm intrigued by the discussion surround RFID and retail. Most of the discussions I've seen surround concerns about retailers gathering too much information about their customers' buying habits. The other major concern commonly noted deals with third party tracking of the rfid device once it leaves the store. However, neither of these seem like valid concerns to me.

    The ability to track a customer's buying habits, most retailers have that ability now. Bar codes uniquely identify a product. Unless you pay with cash (or a gift card at some retailers), the retailer has access to your name and some corresponding number (checking account or credit/debit card number). Those can easily be stored, RFID is not needed to accomplish this type of information gathering. In fact, many retailers use loyalty programs so that they can track cash and gift card purchases as well as credit/check. All of this begs the question: Is this a bad thing? If more information about your buying habits brings you lower prices, are you willing for your retailer to have that information?

    As for tracking the RFID signals once they leave the store, I do not expect this to be a valid concern for long. For a retailer to use rfid on its products for anything other than loss prevention, it needs to be on every product. That means small and cheap, which in turn will drive the manufactures to make them with as low of a signal and as little storage capacity as possible to meet the retailer's needs. And, much like the security tags today, it is a simple thing to disable the tag once it has been scanned/read at the Point of Sale. This would even be preferable, therefore making it easy to scan for tags that are still active trying to make it out of the store (ie, shoplifted items).

    All this is not to say there are no privacy concerns here. However, I think too much attention is placed on the retail use of RFID and not enough the other potential uses. Can anyone imagine DL's with embedded RFID? How about the RFID tag in my employee badge? These are the areas that I see real potential for abuse. At a retail store, if you don't want to be tracked, just pay with cash and don't use loyalty. You're data falls into the "other" bucket. If you don't mind being tracked, use your credit card, get your airline miles, your loyalty discount, and save a bucks.

    --
    If you would like to be a leader with a large following...drive slowly down a windy two-lane road
    1. Re:Retailers and RFID by Entrope · · Score: 2, Informative
      For a retailer to use rfid on its products for anything other than loss prevention, it needs to be on every product. That means small and cheap, which in turn will drive the manufactures to make them with as low of a signal and as little storage capacity as possible to meet the retailer's needs.

      The incremental cost of adding 96 bits of storage (say, going from 32 bits to 128 bits) is much lower than the benefits reaped from having the extra data. I mention 128 bits because most /.'ers have heard how much we can address uniquely in IPv6. I would be very surprised if many RFID tags were deployed with as little capacity as you suggest: it is ROM, not RAM. Burning a few bits of ROM is very very easy.

    2. Re:Retailers and RFID by jrsimmons · · Score: 1

      I agree that the cost is small. However, these tags are a commodity, small costs are the name of the game. Very small costs multiplied enough times become significant cost factors. That said, we've all witnessed the unbelievable explosion in storage capacity over the past decade. I'll agree it's a guessing game to know how much data will be kept of these tags.

      --
      If you would like to be a leader with a large following...drive slowly down a windy two-lane road
    3. Re:Retailers and RFID by thelexx · · Score: 1

      "The ability to track a customer's buying habits, most retailers have that ability now. Bar codes uniquely identify a product. Unless you pay with cash (or a gift card at some retailers), the retailer has access to your name and some corresponding number (checking account or credit/debit card number). Those can easily be stored, RFID is not needed to accomplish this type of information gathering. In fact, many retailers use loyalty programs so that they can track cash and gift card purchases as well as credit/check. All of this begs the question: Is this a bad thing? If more information about your buying habits brings you lower prices, are you willing for your retailer to have that information?"

      I've seen this mentioned a couple of times now. Which is it? Can they grab my name/addr/ph from just my debit card usage or does it require the 'gift' card being used? Considering the ubiquity of 'gift' cards, even if it were possible to get the info from your bank record or something, most places probably aren't set up to do so and rely on the card. Also, that 'gift' card isn't. I am not at all convinced that it does lower prices. More likely to me is that prices are skewed such that the new 'gift' card price is actually the normal price, and the 'normal' price is now higher, penalizing those who don't use the gift card. This already often done with regular 'sale' promotions.

      --
      "Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
    4. Re:Retailers and RFID by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1


      At a retail store, if you don't want to be tracked, just pay with cash and don't use loyalty.

      How long before that cash gets embedded RFID? Then it could be tracked to an account at a bank. And should it happen, it would be illegal to disable it.

      RFID adds two things:

      A bar code can be scanned once and is noticible. Bar codes aren't uniquely identifiable to a particular instance of an object.

      RFID allows tracking by serial number, and can be scanned without the owner knowing it, with a scanner placed anywhere where a person might walk.

      With data mining becoming a huge thing, and storage capacity ever increasing, I think it could lead to trouble especially should one go through a divorce or any other court-involved difficulty, much like what subpoenas to Speedpass can do, despite the numerous assurances (i.e. lies) by the people promoting it.

      Now, it might be possible to recover stolen objects if you just give coppers the serial number, but crafty thieves would know how to disable them anyway.

      Frankly, it comes down to trust. The problems I see is that the potential is there and you bet the same way we've seen major web sites violate their stated privacy policies, companies.

    5. Re:Retailers and RFID by jrsimmons · · Score: 1

      "Can they grab my name/addr/ph from just my debit card usage "
      Yes. Your name is included on the magnetic stripe data. Your address and phone number are available from the bank that issued the card.

      "Considering the ubiquity of 'gift' cards"
      Gift cards are typically among the most anonymous methods of payment. They have a unique number, not tied to any name, but that does link to an amount (ie, like an anonymous account with the retailer). This is why they are so profitable for the retailers. For every card lost, that's money essentially given to the retailer. For every card with $.57 thrown away, there is no way for the customer to recover the $.57, because it is not tied to his/her name, but only to the card.

      I believe you meant to be speaking of loyalty cards instead of gift cards. You are partially correct -- the prices for a loyalty customer are about the same as a discount non-loyalty retailer. However, you typically are getting more for your dollar with loyalty program retailers, such as nicer shopping environment, product alerts (yes, some are ads), and other benefits. It's simply a personal choice as to whether you want these perks or want to shop at a retailer that just gives the lowest price it can to everyone.

      --
      If you would like to be a leader with a large following...drive slowly down a windy two-lane road
    6. Re:Retailers and RFID by jrsimmons · · Score: 1

      "How long before that cash gets embedded RFID? Then it could be tracked to an account at a bank. And should it happen, it would be illegal to disable it."
      I'm sorry, but this is simply a silly idea. Do you really think that there is actually a physical "account" in your bank with bills stacked in it? And even if there was, how are you going to know who has the cash once it leaves the bank? We would all have to have unique rfid's ourselves first, and then the rfid in the cash would be meaningless, the store could just log the personal rf signal of the shopper. No one is going to care that John Doe has bills X, Y, and Z.

      "A bar code can be scanned once and is noticible. "
      And why would retailers spend their hard earned money hiding rf readers throughout the store? They know that if you leave with the product, you have to go through the Point of Sale. What possible use could they see in buying and maintaining readers where they don't provide any new information? I can forsee the shelves having readers on them, so that inventory is updated when an item is taken and to help in finding misplaced items, but that doesn't have anything to do with the customer.

      "Bar codes aren't uniquely identifiable to a particular instance of an object"
      Actually, at least one retailer is already tracking electronics by serial number for warranty purposes. Beyond that, do you really care that JD bought "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" with ISDN 123 instead of ISDN 456? The product bought is enough for any data mining the retailers need. Yes, storage has increased tremendously in the past decade, but processing power has not kept up. Too much data is just as useless as inadequate data. The retailers are not going to care which S/N's you bought for most items (warranty items excluded).

      --
      If you would like to be a leader with a large following...drive slowly down a windy two-lane road
    7. Re:Retailers and RFID by stand · · Score: 1

      Admittedly, I don't know how these rfid tags work (perhaps someone will enlighten me), but wouldn't a simple, directed blast of EM radiation disable them? I can see a market for simple devices that do this developing.

      --
      Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
    8. Re:Retailers and RFID by thelexx · · Score: 1

      Yes, I was speaking of loyalty cards. Sorry about that. I know my name is on my debit card stripe and is sometimes even printed on the receipt, but do (can?) stores take that name and use it to build on their private database of who is buying what? And do banks just willy nilly give out your address and phone to anyone who asks? Not sure how to respond about the 'more for my dollar' with loyalty cards. The nicest store in my area, Publix, doesn't use them, and the second nicest, Albertsons, has a personal info opt out checkbox on their loyalty card sign-up form. My wife could speak more to the precise pricing differences between them and Winn Dixie and Food Lion! :) All in all, I don't like being herded/coerced into behaving in a way that clearly benefits others at what is at best my marginal benefit, and even potential detriment, as evidenced by the court cases where purchasing history was used against people.

      --
      "Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
    9. Re:Retailers and RFID by jrsimmons · · Score: 1

      Yes, they will be easy to disable. I expect most retailers to disable them when they leave the store, though that is yet to be determined.

      --
      If you would like to be a leader with a large following...drive slowly down a windy two-lane road
    10. Re:Retailers and RFID by jrsimmons · · Score: 1

      In my (limited) experience, retailers do not care about specific customer names. They certainly can keep your name and whatever information they want from the transaction and store it for as long as they would like. Most do keep it for certain periods of time in some manner or another, but only for accounting records. Law requires that they keep copies of receipts (the retailer I deal with the most keeps electronic copies). This data is not the stuff used for data mining/trend analysis to the best of my knowledge. As far as a large retailer, such as the ones you mentioned, is likely to be concerned, individuals are unpredictable and a waste of time. Inventory management, seasonal trends, and marketing response (all things that are learned by looking at item movement as a whole, not an individuals purchasing habits) are much more useful.

      That said, I do know that retailers (and companies like the one I work for that sell retailers their hardware/software solutions) are beginning to think of ways to market to individuals when they enter the store. This would require specific customer information be kept and used. I've always wondered how much of the interest was sparked by the Tom Cruise movie a couple years ago that showed people constantly bombarded by advertisements after id'ing them with retinal scanners...

      --
      If you would like to be a leader with a large following...drive slowly down a windy two-lane road
    11. Re:Retailers and RFID by JohnWhitney · · Score: 1

      "I'm sorry, but this is simply a silly idea. Do you really think that there is actually a physical "account" in your bank with bills stacked in it?"

      Do you actually think that physical cash in your bank account would be required?

      How about: whenever I got to the ATM or bank teller to withdraw cash, they record the RFID on the bills they give me, and link it to my bank account number.

      Let's say the police have a drug bust, with lots of cash found. If they found any cash with your bank account as the last known source, they'd probably have good probable cause to search your house.

      "And why would retailers spend their hard earned money hiding rf readers throughout the store? They know that if you leave with the product, you have to go through the Point of Sale."

      Let's see, they might put such scanners in dressing rooms and bathrooms, to discretely check for shoplifting... "item XYZ went into the bathroom, but didn't come out again!". And as others have pointed out, they might be interested in what you bought at OTHER stores, so they can decide how to stock their shelves with merchandise that will sell faster.

      However, you missed the point. The point was that scanning bar codes can't be done covertly (by the store or anyone else). In addition, bar codes don't STAY on the product, as it is contained on the packaging. RFIDs will, and can be incorporated into the product as easily as on the packaging.

      What's worse is that RFIDs can be scanned without having to see the product, or even really knowing it is there. What happens if my new laptop comes RFID tagged? Sure, it might make RMA handling easier for the laptop company, but it might also allow a thief to detect it in my car trunk, just by walking by and scanning for it.

      This technology has the potential of ending anonymous transactions. Even transactions that are LEGAL can be socially frowned upon. Are you 15 and buying condoms? You might not even be able to anonymously do that even with cash. How about anti-abortionists standing outside a clinic with an RFID scanner? Maybe they'll be able to determine exactly who you are by scanning what clothes you are wearing when you walk past them into the clinic? Discretely going to a gay bar, because you aren't openly homosexual?

      Drink when you were underage? If the police found an RFID tagged beer can or wine bottle in your GARBAGE (publicly searchable) or even the trunk of your car, they could potentially track it back to the person who bought it, and what store it was sold at.

      It isn't even that each RFID has a unique serial number. It's that they are so EASY to scan and digitally match with database entries. No human intervention or help is necessary, which is untrue of bar codes. THAT is what is going to make this technology so easy to use to the detriment of all.

      John

    12. Re:Retailers and RFID by jrsimmons · · Score: 1

      John- You're concerns about rfid tags being used in money are unfounded. Even if the cash was tagged when you left the bank, how does anyone know when you give a $20 to your kid so he can go to the movies? And he gives that $20 to a friend for a $10 and two $5's. It doesn't make any sense.

      And your concerns about retailers are unfounded as well. It is almost assured that the tags will be deactivated when they leave the store. It serves no purpose to the store to leave them on, and a very useful purpose to turn them off. If the store deactivates every tag attached to an item that is paid for, then any active tag leaving the store is being stolen. This is useful to the store.

      Of course if some group, government or criminal, wanted to spend a lot of time trying to track down your individual habits, they might take advantage of rfid signals. But there are plenty of ways to track you now. I doubt we need to worry about the police going through our garbage (and by the way -- an empty container in the garbage in no way legally implies consumption, much less illegal purchase). They have better things to do.

      As I said in my original post, there are some valid privacy concerns, but you have not mentioned one yet. Consider personal identification using rfid, for instance. Or maybe large items that can be tracked back to you now -- like your car. The tags that might be used in these things are not, however, what you will find on a pack of Spearmint. That's what allows them to be a concern...The tag on the pack of Spearmint will not store data about you, will not lead to your ultimate demise in any way shape or form. It's like trying to fit the square peg in the round hole -- just isn't designed for that.

      --
      If you would like to be a leader with a large following...drive slowly down a windy two-lane road
  19. put item in microwave. voila, no more rfid tag. by intertwingled · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Assuming that the item you have purchased is metallic, and will fit in a microwave oven, and you don't mind a bit of char where the rfid tag is, why not just stick the item in the microwave oven for a second or two? Won't that destroy the rfid tag?

    --
    -- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
  20. Resistence is futile. You will be RFID'ed by Ridgelift · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "The RFID train is beginning to leave the station, and now is the right time to begin a national discussion about where, if at all, any lines will be drawn to protect privacy rights"

    Personally, I don't care if RFID's track my every move. I'm looking forward to their ubiquitous existence which WILL happen no matter what anyone wants.

    What does concern me is if RFID's are closed in their architecture. RFID's should be open so that any reader can read any RFID tag, which will probably happen anyway in order for them to become as prevalent as barcodes.

  21. Maybe not by rm007 · · Score: 1

    I'll lay money on it that they outlaw personal RFID blockers/jammers
    Should such things become available, they may focus on regulating them to restrict their ability to interfer with other systems. Personal radio systems are allowed for things such as Bluetooth, and, of more relevance, devices, ranging from in-car hands-free cell phone units to homekaraoke mikes, that make use of the otherwise heavily regulated FM frequencies.

    Any regulation may limit the effectiveness of the devices, but I would expect clever designers to come out with things like wallets, purses, backpacks, briefcases etc. Of course, I am still looking for a foil lined baseball cap, but I am sure that they are out there.

    --


    I've finally got around to changing my sig
    1. Re:Maybe not by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ask, and ye shall "recieve", not.. (Ugh, bad pun!)

      http://www.lessemf.com/personal.html

  22. Re:put item in microwave. voila, no more rfid tag. by The_Mr_Flibble · · Score: 1, Funny

    Or even better reprogram all your rfid tags so that they think your carrying a car tyre (or three) or an engine block or a refrigerator. (Will battleships have an rfid tag ?)

  23. Re:put item in microwave. voila, no more rfid tag. by intertwingled · · Score: 1

    dammit, I meant to say, is NOT, I repeat, NOT, metallic. =D

    --
    -- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
  24. Leahy is looking for a payday by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wal Mart can buy off Leahy out of petty cash.

  25. Re:put item in microwave. voila, no more rfid tag. by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

    If you like taking everything you buy and running it through a microwave, yeah.

  26. Yes by Greyfox · · Score: 1, Funny
    Ok, when you read the next line, do it in the voice of Professor Farnsworth:

    Yes! Each customer will be subjected to a blast of MICROWAVE RADIATION at the door, which will safely destroy the RFID tags without harming the products they're attached to! An ingenious solution! Whaaa?

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  27. CA Bill by ViceClown · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is a bill in California right now that sets out to address consumor privacy concerns. NPR also talked about this in the morning. I agree w/ poster #1 with the potential benefits of RFID and despite my liberal and consumer advocate leanings, I am in favor of them. Clearly, however, policy needs to be set for how they will function both in and out of stores/warehouses. Should they be deactivated when leaving a store? At first I thought yes, but then other potential uses are quashed. Suppose your refridgerator could give you an instant inventory? That kind of thing is something i'de like to have someday. A middle ground was proposed by RSA to have a bag that temporarily blocks RFID until you get home. I don't know how good that will work for all situations, though. Like it or not, RFID is coming. The benefits are just too great to ignore. The question is, how will it be regulated? Now is the time for consumers to lobby for legislation dictating how RFID can be used!

    --
    Have a Happy.
  28. RFIDs may require federal regulation to ensure... by Bluesman · · Score: 1

    ...the public's privacy rights.

    Translation: We want our cut.

    --
    If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
  29. Yuh Huh by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Funny
    Kind of like the radiation from your monitor should disperse within a few feet and be unreadable to anyone. I bet the same black vans that are already following you around can read the tags just fine, and what will you do once they know your fashion sense?

    Agent 1: Reading target now. Oh... Oh my God... He's wearing a shirt from the gap and pants from Old Navy!
    Agent 2: That... son... of... a... BITCH!

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:Yuh Huh by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 1

      "Kind of like the radiation from your monitor should disperse within a few feet and be unreadable to anyone. I bet the same black vans that are already following you around can read the tags just fine, and what will you do once they know your fashion sense?"

      Just when you thought you were safe with your blinds drawn. (Also look up Marcus Kuhn in Germany)
      http://news.com.com/2100-1001-912785.html

  30. I'll take them on by Britz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've always said I don't mind RFID tags as long as there are no laws mandating them.

    I would probably choose to buy the product without a tag. And when I buy products that have them, I remove them.

    But what concerns me is a law (and I could see this happening) that forbids anyone to remove RFID tags. That would scare the crap out of me. But up until that point, I'll handle the tags myself.

    ---------
    Is Karma really that easy?
    http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=101 578&cid =8657013

    1. Re:I'll take them on by dave981 · · Score: 1

      Hopefully they'll just make the law the same as for the tags you find on a mattress that say "DO not remove under penalty of Law.... unless you're the owner."

    2. Re:I'll take them on by cr0sh · · Score: 1

      What if you are unable to remove the tag without destroying the product? Did you know that there are already RFID tags embedded in the rubber of automobile (and other) tires? There is no way to remove them without damaging the tire (and likely there is no easy way to disable them - short of a custom built HERF device, targetted at the RFID tag, but then again, you don't know where they buried it in the tread or sidewall)...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  31. Size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not the size of your RFID that matters, it's how you use it :)

  32. Potential vulnerability for retailers? by sczimme · · Score: 0

    Scenario:

    customer goes to $CLOTHING_STORE and buys an item

    RFID tag is disabled on purchase

    customer makes an extremely subtle mod to the item (writes a small 'X' inside the garment using invisible ink, etc.)

    customer returns the item

    customer [or agent thereof] comes back to the store, finds the marked item, and shoplifts it

    alarm doesn't go off because the RFID was already disabled

    This is not a perfect plan, of course. The RFID tag might be read-only (but could be disabled some other way). The store will almost certainly have other anti-theft measures - like cameras - in place. I guess it would only work if the other types of hardware dongles were discontinued.

    PS I was not about to number the list and put "N) Profit!" at the end. This is a pre-emptive 'shh'.

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
    1. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      First, there is always a potential vulnerability in anything security related. Whether were talking ssh or fort knox, it's got vulnerabilities. This I don't dispute. That being said, I would assume that the retailer would just attach a new RFID tag to the item at the return counter. After all, it would then be there property again.

    2. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't this a bit complex? If you're planning to lift the garment anyway, why not just lift it the first time and save the energy...

    3. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by AndroidCat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As part of the return process, the garment/tag will be re-added to the inventory. Most (cheap) tags are read-only and only say "I am tag {2575452E-E8D5-42CD-896D-2796C44D2EC6}". When the "customer [or agent thereof]" shoplifts it, the item record matching the tag will now have sold = false, and trigger the alarm. The door reader would only pass tags it doesn't know about or ones with sold = true. (If I was designing it. :^)

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    4. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      After-thought: If I was designing it, and my evil-bit was set, I'd have the door reader pay attention to those other tags on the way in. With a little inventory system sharing (perhaps involuntary), all the greeters and clerks would know that you bought shoes (black, evening) at Bucky's Shoes down the mall and suggest an outfit that would look good with them.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    5. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by m.h.2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's refreshing to finally see so much coherent, sensible discussion of this topic. The conspiracy theories are, quite frankly, beginning to wear thin.

      When put into perspective, this technology is like so many before it. The _possibilities_ for misuse are there, but the probability of widespread misuse, considering the implementation hurdles, cost, and effectiveness, is far outweighed by its valid uses.

      Besides, there will always be vendors who will not use the technology. If you're really concerned about your "privacy," why waste your energy trying to hold back the tide? Take your dollars to the vendor that makes you more comfortable. You _still_ have the freedom of choice.

    6. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by GAVollink · · Score: 2, Informative
      It's all about how the law is written and worded.

      Foremost, such a law should not specifically use the term, RFID. See my solution in another part of this discussion.

      The FUD surrounding this comes from the fact that once RFIDs are in place, then the infrastructure to install a single RFID reader, and track comings and goings is minimal. Basically if WalMart starts selling RFID enabled clothing, then tracking becomes easy. Distributed tracking over many locations is so expensive as to qualify as Science Fiction. Yet, it's feasable that an influential company could do so, think McDonalds size.

    7. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 1
      Take your dollars to the vendor that makes you more comfortable. You _still_ have the freedom of choice.
      Once WalMart requires RFIDs, everything you buy will have RFIDs no matter where you buy them. And if the store you shop at doesn't use the RFIDs, then they won't kill them at checkout, will they? So in a way you will have less privacy by shopping at those stores.
      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    8. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 1

      Yet another reason to microwave everything you buy. What you describe is NOT killing the RFID tag at checkout, just changing it's record in the store's database. The store still knows who bought it, and when, and which store, and what you paid, and what else you bought at the same time, and what color you prefer, ad nauseam.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    9. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by m.h.2 · · Score: 1

      Walmart doesn't buy from every manufacturer in the world, so your reasoning that everything will have an RFID tag is flawed. Think about bar coding. Does _everything_ you buy have a bar code on it? Most products do, but not all. There's no way that every manufacturer and every store is going to go with RFID. You may be forced to buy local, handcrafted items from boutique stores, but like I said, you have a choice.

    10. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by AndroidCat · · Score: 1
      Yup, unless the tag is removed or killed, the only safeguard is that the company says the data was deleted. Most stores track all that information anyway, without tags, but they don't know who you are until you provide a credit/debit or loyalty card when paying. Offering a discount or package deal on matching items is a bit late at that stage.

      Imagine if the store system could id you and let clerks know to offer it to you before check-out through HUDs and dataglasses. Some people might find that to be very helpful...

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    11. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 1
      Does _everything_ you buy have a bar code on it?
      The only stuff that doesn't is produce; it just has little stickers with a number the clerk types into the register; this is the equivalent of a barcode.
      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    12. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 1
      Sounds a bit like caller ID. American Express has a system that knows who you are from your phone number, and pulls up your record before the agent picks up the call. They used to say "Hello, Mr. Smith" when they answered, but it freaked too many customers so now they just say "Hello."

      Contrast this with the various companies who make my punch my account number into the phone before they let me talk to Customer Service, who then asks me for my account number!

      Still, I want the people at the store to know me because I'm a happy customer who shops their often and they recognize my face, not because they scanned my underwear when I walked in the door. I mean, what if I'm wearing my wife's underwear that day?

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    13. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by m.h.2 · · Score: 1

      OK, I think you're missing the point, and we're moving close the realm of semantics here. There are plenty of stores (at least in my area, and I'm talking Mom & Pop shops) that don't use UPCs, and will never use RFID. They deal with small manufacturers, suppliers, artisans, etc. who also don't use these tracking devices. Sure, the prices are higher, but then, so is the quality, the service, and yes, privacy. Some of these shops don't even accept credit cards. How's *that* for ensuring privacy? And if there are no stores like this in your area, how about second-hand shops? Thrift stores? Co-op and farmers' markets? What I'm trying to say is that if you only want to shop at Super-Mega-Mart, then yes, they'll be implementing methods of insuring operational efficiency and you're going to have to accept their policies. If you don't like them, then you *can* look for, and find alternatives if you put forth the effort to do so and are willing to accept the tradeoffs of convenience and cost.

    14. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 1

      So you're saying my only choice is to become a blank?

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    15. Re:Potential vulnerability for retailers? by realdpk · · Score: 1

      Think data warehousing company. The RFID scanner manufacturers would be dumb not to try to bundle some sort of data collection and analysis package to sell their customers. Then its only a matter of a few SQL joins and bam, distributed tracking.

      It wouldn't be all that expensive. It's just a matter of having the RFID scanners connect (probably over the internet) to a master database.

  33. A wonderful antiterrorist tool. by ehack · · Score: 0, Troll

    RFIDs are a wonderful antiterrorist tool. They allow tracking of any individual, any currency bill he owns, any means of transport he uses. How can anyone oppose the use of such technology ? A day will come when every child will be implanted with an RFID chip, and a remote-disable spinal tap at birth, and all law and order problems will be moot. I just hope America has the wisdom to use this technology first: I don't live there.

    --
    This is not a signature.
  34. Dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Everyday, death is becoming more appealing that taxes.

    The last words of a big pussy. Grow a spine, wimp. My wife's grandmother survived a concentration camp. You come talk to her about all the horrible oppression you face. She's a tough old broad who'd probably grab and squeeze your nuts to make sure you even had any.

  35. RFID tags are WAY cool by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just think of all the ways you can screw with "data trackers". I can see it now - big batches of random RFID tags auctioned off on ebay. People walking around with little foil bags of RFIDs, periodically pulling a few new ones out, and putting others back in.

    Look, here, someone's just walked past with an 8000# stuffed hippo. Wait, here he is with a Ford F150. Wait, there he goes with a Harrier Attack Jet. Think of all the fun you could have. Especially with stores and security guards. You have RFIDs that code to their products, they hual you in for "shoplifting". Whoops. You sue - big bucks. :D

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    1. Re:RFID tags are WAY cool by ch-chuck · · Score: 1

      easy solution: tampering with an RFID device becomes a federal offense. Don't laugh, it's illegal to sell or tune a radio in to certain frequency bands already.

      --
      try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    2. Re:RFID tags are WAY cool by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but this is not tampering. I haven't done anything to the RFIDs, or anything else. I've merely placed them in a container, then removed them again. ;)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  36. a battle we have to fight . . by wi11iAmBlAk3 · · Score: 1

    It's our battle to fight, if we care about our freedom. Without the support of the people, a well meaning politian like this one will not get very far, since he or she will be going against the machine. Support them. And speak your mind to others. The govenrment was for us, not for big business.

  37. ...and I don't! by zanderredux · · Score: 1
    Once I remove the bar code, it becomes useless for tracking the item or me.

    Yes, but only if you were given the choice to remove it.

    In a worst-case scenario, industry players or a policy to enforce the so-called "homeland security" could induce the creation of a federal law enforcing the use and maintenance of such tags, so you can function in society (people already has spoken of tattoos or chip implants under the skin).

    Sounds very "mark-of-the-beast"-type of talk, but this reasoning also sounds strangely reasonable nowadays, given the governmental abuse of terrorist threats to curb civil liberties (not only the US -- see Europe as well) and the pressure from retailers and marketers in general to increase revenues at the expense of consumer privacy.

    I'd also dare to say that's the consequence of objectifying people - when one starts to think of people as walking organic food processing systems with unpredictable behavior, tagging comes as an option to keep an eye on them, claiming that it is for the "common good"!

  38. right to privacy? by N8F8 · · Score: 1

    I don't think the Supreme Court has ironed that right out yet.

    --
    "God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
    1. Re:right to privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the Supreme Court has ironed that right out yet.

      What?

      http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/149/

      Griswold v. Connecticut established that right way back in 1965: know your rights, lest they are forgotten.

  39. Good thing... by Infernon · · Score: 1

    I think it's a good thing that our elected officials are starting to discuss things of a technical nature BEFORE they're widely used. Does anyone remember any other technologies that were examined beforehand? I don't.

    1. Re:Good thing... by tsg · · Score: 1

      Does anyone remember any other technologies that were examined beforehand? I don't.

      DeCSS comes to mind...

      --
      People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
  40. The best way to avoid abuse by BCW2 · · Score: 1

    Ban the damn things. Or get a few hacks out so we can alter what they send. That could be fun. How about a jammer that covers that frequency range?

    --
    Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  41. Private information the fuel of MBA's. by sittingbull · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wrote a paper last summer about environmental ethics and technology for a sociology graduate class. Environmental ethics and technology? What could be the connection? Our environment and how is becoming overrun with technology for technologies sake. RFID if a fine example of the slow building of a technological mountain that we will not notice until it is too late. The fact is that technology will enframe most people so that they do not notice it anymore -- MTV generation. For example, who remembers life with only 3-channels of UHF programming, or no condensation-trails from jets in the sky? Now there is a generation that knows only 100+ channels of programming. This will happen with RFID in the next 20-30 years and RFID will be everywhere. A new generation will be born that won't know, or care even if you tell them - generation gap.

    Most likely congress will ban RFID readers as a criminal device because people will be worried about criminals reading their homes/cars and corporations will worry about bad data being introduced into there systems, so no personal RFID readers/scramblers/decoders/whatever... -- these will be made illegal due to PRIVACY/BUSINESS concerns.

    Overall technology needs a gas tank to keep running: coal/gas to power the PC's; RFID and your stuff in a databse to fuel the MBA's !

    Even if RFID is only used on money you will still be tracked. The granularity of tracking is increasing at a scary pace - maybe there is a "moore's law" somewhere in here - so where will it end? Most currency in the world will use RFID and some say that there is a U.S. 20 bill that will be cirulating shortly using RFID - so bill #434566 withdrawn at bank #12 by Joe Smith and bill #434566 used to buy CD ABC at music store XYZ.

    Story on NPR today and it does seem that the people representing the privacy side are acting nervous and the business side is confident that they will have their way. And finally there is the relentless tide of consumers who don't give a crap and that is another possible way that RFID will become ubiquitous with a 10% discount coupon attached.

    Just some random notes on RFID.

  42. This isn't much different from current Bar Codes by dave981 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Why is it that everyone gets so frightened of RFID tags? It's the same fears that people had when Bar Codes were first introduced...

    Think of it this way, If you go to the Mall and walk into Abercrombie, and buy a pair of shorts today, then if you took that pair of shorts to the GAP and tried to scan the bar code, you'd end up getting an 'error' code of some sort. Why? Because GAP doesn't care about Abercrombies stuff and they don't KNOW what the code is. Why doesn't the GAP know A&F's code, and what item that code represents? because It's a proprietary network!

    Everyone needs to remember, these companies are not interested in the 'open source' world and 'sharing' information the way the /. community is (or big brother).

    If all of the companies who are going to start using RFID tags decided to share the exact details of what each code means/represents in a mega database with the government, then yes - it's time to dawn the tinfoil hats... But until the day that these RFID tags are carrying more than just an ID number and arn't encrypted, you should be safe.... All the person with the 'scanner' will know is that someone came in wearing products with XXX_ID and YYY_ID'd items.

    Leave it to the guys at 2600 to go around and determine what the ID's represent and then publish the lists...

  43. TV and changing your life. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    Just because there's a recommended maximum amount of TV for a day, doesn't mean that the child should watch that much (or a little less) every day. Heck, I'd make the arguement that a kid shouldn't watch any TV, most of the time, and that's not restricted to most of the time in a day day, but more like most of the week. There's tons of other things to do, like ride bikes, play in the yard, swim, participate in organized sports, play games with friends, school, homework, read. Heck, where's the time to watch TV?

    As for the "drastically changing your life", it wouldn't be that much, you'd just have to carry more cash than you do now. The extent you wish to follow the rest is your "individual choices and rights". You don't have to give up anything you don't want to, which was my basic point. Heck, you could even hire someone to buy things for you.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    1. Re:TV and changing your life. by YanceyAI · · Score: 1
      There's tons of other things to do, like ride bikes, play in the yard, swim, participate in organized sports, play games with friends, school, homework, read. Heck, where's the time to watch TV?

      Read the post. The maximum amount child experts recommend is 2 hours per day, and I say she rarely watches that. What she does watch is usually PBS and is educational, but if I raise her in a closet, she won't be ready for real life in the great US of A, now will she?

      Again, read the post. She's 3 years old leaving out the possiblility of most of what you mention except what she does with us, which is plenty.

      As for the "drastically changing your life", it wouldn't be that much, you'd just have to carry more cash than you do now. The extent you wish to follow the rest is your "individual choices and rights". You don't have to give up anything you don't want to, which was my basic point. Heck, you could even hire someone to buy things for you.

      As a women, I don't intend to walk around with the $100+ per week I pay for groceries, the $50+ per week I need for necessities, the $25-30 I need for gas, the $100+ per week for the unexpected, and the unmentionable amount of money that it takes to keep me clothed and groomed for my professional lifestyle. And with those expenses, student loans, mortgage bills, utiltities, childcare expenses, saving for her college, saving for retirement, and our other monthy living expenses, I don't think I'll be hiring someone to be my personal shopper.

      Grow up, pull your head out of the Hollywood fantasy, and then explain to me in a deductive, rational, and well-thought out reason as to why companies should be allowed to collect PRIVATE information about me and my family and why, in America, I should have to add minutes or hours to my already hectic daily routine to carry cash to avoid it.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    2. Re:TV and changing your life. by 3terrabyte · · Score: 1
      I don't mean to derail this fight at all, because I'm enjoying it (and agreeing with you)

      But won't a form RFID be moving to cash also, if not already? After all, what is that metal strip that's in the bill already?

      --

      Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?

    3. Re:TV and changing your life. by YanceyAI · · Score: 1

      Good point.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    4. Re:TV and changing your life. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1
      2 hours per day...She's 3 years old leaving

      hmmm. 3 years old. 2 hours of TV a day? (granted, you say recommended, and she doesn't do that). Usually watches PBS (hey, no commercials, the crux of one of your original major complaints!).

      So what was your major issue with regards to TV and commercials again? (Hint: your paragraphs above indicate that your child isn't exposed to those very commercials you railed against in your initial post.)

      The second argument, which is orthogonal to the first, didn't deviate from my point. It's your choice. You can choose how much cash to have, where to have it, when to have it, and whether you want to go all cash. Or not. Your choice. If you choose not to go all cash, then you choose to use another payment method, which, btw, has always been traceable. It's just easier now.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    5. Re:TV and changing your life. by YanceyAI · · Score: 1

      And my point is also the same. I can choose to opt out by drastically changing my behavior, or I can be free of intrusions of my privacy by large corporate entities...

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
  44. Luddite losers. by Gray · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I swear. RFID tags can be one of the most enabling technologies in history, automating zillions of tasks that otherwise slow down economy and society.

    I for one have no problem being on record for things I in fact did do and places I did go, and it's lot like that's a real threat anyway. I'd make the database myself and sell it if anybody would pay enough to make it worth it.

    As I see it, there is NO SERIOUS DOWNSIDE to RFID, it's not GM foods, it's not guns, and it's just information. Nobody gets physically hurt by tiny radio tags. They're not even especially bad for the environment.

    What we need for RFID is NO LAWS, not lots of them. The Internet will be the medium your big brother nightmares are shipped over, but I don't think anybody seriously thinks we needed to pass laws in the 80s slowing down the game because of that. Why do we suddenly need to do so now with another super enabling technology?

  45. idiots by Zed2K · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And politicians wonder why voter turn out is low? They waste their time and my tax dollars on stupid hearings and debates. Why don't they do something about the patiot act and dmca first? Those are much greater invasions of my privacy than some little electronic tag that will let stores know what kind of jeans I bought.

    1. Re:idiots by tsg · · Score: 1

      They waste their time and my tax dollars on stupid hearings and debates. Why don't they do something about the patiot act and dmca first?

      Just because there are more important things doesn't make this not important.

      --
      People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
  46. Re:put item in microwave. voila, no more rfid tag. by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

    Always check the temperature of the zipper on those new pair of jeans after microwaving but before wearing. A garment with red-hot metal teeth on the crotch would be no fun at all.

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  47. Is Senator Leahy a man or a woman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone here know if Senator Leahy is a man or a woman? What kind of name is "Leahy" anyway?

    1. Re:Is Senator Leahy a man or a woman? by Vindicator9000 · · Score: 1
      It's a Pat!
      sorry, SNL joke

  48. bohoo... by PreteristGuy · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Oh this makes me feel really good...Leahy, a communist looking out for me, and even acting like if he will actually understand the technology if a hearing is held. What a bunch of BS! Just another lame reason for the federal government to interfere in the market where it doesn't belong!

  49. Be Wary by 4of12 · · Score: 1

    Something is definitely wrong here.

    A politician wants to learn about new technology and its implications so that intelligent policies can be put in place?

    Excuse while I watch that pig fly by....

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  50. Can't reprogram them. by Kombat · · Score: 1

    The circuits are hardcoded. They cannot be reprogrammed anymore than a light switch can be reprogrammed. They are simply a series of digits burned into silicon, hooked up to an antenna.

    --
    Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    1. Re:Can't reprogram them. by plover · · Score: 1
      Actually, you're both right.

      Some of the tags being offered for sale have a rewritable storage component; some even store 1K or more! They all have a static identification, however, that remains an unchanging unique identifier.

      The retailers aren't as keen on the rewritable tags, primarily due to the cost. And they don't need it -- they can tie the data in their systems to the static IDs without having to worry about people forging the contents of the dynamic memory.

      --
      John
    2. Re:Can't reprogram them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The circuits are hardcoded. They cannot be reprogrammed anymore than a light switch can be reprogrammed.

      Perhaps not, but someone could burn them out and place an alternative tag on the merchandise.

  51. Fear of RFID's by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 1
    My biggest fear of RFID's is not that the information is being tracked, but what will be done with this info . . .

    If I buy a lot of Twinkies, will someone use this information against me when I try to buy life insurance?

    If I buy a lot of cough syrup, is some doctor going to call me, or is the DEA going to knock on my door?

    If I buy 50 copies of catcher in the rye and a semi-automatic rifle, are the men in black going to take me away?

    Granted, some of this can be tracked now, but if we make this easier, do I need to think about what message I'm sending before I buy anything?

    1. Re:Fear of RFID's by intertwingled · · Score: 1

      That's a big twinky! ... What about the twinky?

      --
      -- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
    2. Re:Fear of RFID's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You already should be thinking about what message you are sending when you buy something. That is being a responsible consumer.

  52. Where is the CueCat for RF ID? by turtleshadow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I remember the uproar on CueCat a few years ago.
    Give a slow barcode reader to everyone and then watch them use it.

    What prevents a 2nd year EE student from publishing a circuit or code openly on how to read and decode the tags? Is this a DCMCA reverse engineering threat?

    Could the Prism wireless chipset which has been hacked already under Linux hit RFIDs with the right signal to get a return signal as a result?

    Hopefully Congress will force as a concession that RFIDs strings be freely available I think like ISBN numbers. UPCs I think you have to pay the Databases or license the decodeing algorithm especially ones related in manufacturing and parts cataloging and not Point of Sale IDs. IE the stuff that doesn't get read by a check out scanner.

  53. 1984 by bored_geek · · Score: 1

    Big Brother cometh

  54. No, he's clueless by Brian+Stretch · · Score: 0, Troll

    Sen. Leahy thinks that using Windows Explorer to browse around a shared Windows file server and read publically shared documents is hacking. At least, it is when those documents are highly embarrassing to the Democratic Party. In all fairness, his Republican counterpart (Sen. Hatch) is just as clueless, though at least Hatch means well. Leahy's vicious.

    I really don't think the politicians are going to be of much help here. Keep them out of the loop and keep them from making RFID countermeasures illegal.

    1. Re:No, he's clueless by Paul+03244 · · Score: 1

      Hatch *is* clueless--& not sure he means well. As a christian/gospel songwriter, Hatch has made a siginificant; although not huge; amount of $$ off copyrighted song lyrics & recordings. I think that he is just self-interested, and he may become the new 'Senator from Disney' once Hollings is gone.

      I guess I would rather have Hatch be a privacy advocate than a RIAA/MPAA doughboy, but as soon as he & other politicians figure out the real score on encryption, you can bet that they will say that governments should be the only entities w/strong crypto.

      Which will make sense Joe Sixpack, because the best argument for strong crypto in the hands of non-government entities is to shield 'illicit' activities; which Joe Sixpack doesn't like after 9/11; but the reality is, that the best indicator that you are dealing with a free (constitutional) society; is that there is organized crime that's not part of the government!!

  55. Opportunity by DennisInDallas · · Score: 1

    just think of all the gadjets (both real and fake that people will buy... jammers, readers, signal modification kits.

    Every beggar will NEED to know who is walkin' by with a pocket full of $20s.

    Every shopaholic's spouse will want to know when they're trying to sneak their purchases into the house.

    All of us w/ lead-foil in our hats will want to be able to disable or alter the signal (without making the big black mark that we saw on the $20s last week).

    A sharp circuit designer could have a field day. I will probably be trying to pass old modem cards as anti-RFID protection kits, just wear one around your neck and the government will never know what you're doing

    1. Re:Opportunity by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      Don't know about the $20, but the Euro is supposed to have an RFID in it soon enough. Makes counterfieting harder and mugging easier. Heres a story for tin hat brigade about it.

      http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011219S0016

  56. Welcome Mr. Anderton by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

    Can someone say Minority Report?

    How long before telemarketers get ahold of a way to track you, so they know where to call to get in touch with you?

    --
    I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
  57. Re:This isn't much different from current Bar Code by FuzzyShrimp · · Score: 1

    I just noticed that if you add a couple of "A"s and rearrange the letters it spells AFRAID. Need more?

  58. It isn't just retail... by newt · · Score: 1
    The US State Dept wants US passports to include biometric identification on an RFID tag by 2007.


    The data will, of course, be encrypted. But you can buy off-the-shelf RFID scanners today which have a range of about 50 feet, so even if you can't tell that someone has brown eyes and blue hair you'd at least be able to tell that they were carrying an American passport from quite a decent distance away.


    One of those readers connected to a small microcontroller which counts how many unique RFIDs have been seen during the last few seconds wouldn't be too hard to build, and would give you a reading of how many Americans are currently in a 50 foot radius.


    If the output on that microcontroller is connected to an explosives detonator, then you have a bomb which will only go off in the presence of Americans. Perfect for airports, taxis and foreign embassies! Set the "American Density" (unique counts in a 50 foot radius) threshold to a value which gives you optimal yield for the application at hand; small numbers for a taxi, large numbers for an airport concourse.


    Note that I didn't come up with this idea; It was discussed on RISKS-DIGEST a couple of months ago.


    IBM had a stand at a technology conference I attended last month where they were showcasing their RFID technology solutions. I mentioned this to one of their people, and suggested that we could call the explosives an "IBM Bomb", since it'd be enabled by off the shelf IBM technology. That wasn't really fair because IBM isn't the only vendor doing this stuff, but it was funny to see his sales pitch stop in mid-flow as he thought about the PR effects :-)


    I think the US has larger issues it needs to consider than the effects on the retail industry and privacy. Like it or not, US foreign policy has lead to a world which features various groups scattered across the planet who want to kill Americans. RFIDs in passports give those groups a way to distinguish between Americans and non-Americans at a distance, which doesn't strike me as a particularly clever idea in the current political environment...


    - mark

    --

    -----
    I tried an internal modem, but it hurt when I walked.

  59. Why there is fear... by cr0sh · · Score: 1
    I would say there are a several reasons why.:

    First off, RFID tags use radio frequencies, as their name suggests, meaning that they can be read without needing line-of-sight (which in many cases can be a good thing to have, esp for inventory control), like a barcode needs. Furthermore, with a barcode, one can just deface it or slap a piece of tape over it, and it becomes "inoperable" (this can be a detriment for barcodes - how many times have you had to wait for a cashier to type in the barcode when it wouldn't scan because of one reason or another?) - you can't easily and quickly do this with RFID tags.

    Secondly, RFID tags can be small - very small, and embedded into the product (between layers of cardboard, in the rubber of shoes - there are already RFID tags in most new tires made today) - removing them or disabling them will be either difficult or impossible after you have bought the product, unless you want to detroy the product.

    Finally, barcodes are "open" - anyone can get the spec for a barcode, build a reader, and use them easily - no such thing is available (yet) for RFID tags. In fact, I would be willing to bet that they would only license the spec (like the DVD-CCA) to keep ordinary people from using the tags as they see fit (lots of neat applications could be made if you knew how the tags worked).

    Your argument about the corporations sharing the codes/meanings/databases with the government is a moot point - in case you haven't noticed it, the government is the corporations, for all intents and purposes. Government has been bought out, and bows to the corporate machine, giving it whatever it wants or needs, while passing laws favorable to the corporations. Every once in a while a law passes that is favorable to the proles, but this is more so that the proles don't get wary and wise up, and start questioning what is really going on. The corporations are what is really controlling this planet - the governments currently exist only to keep the populace from knowing or understanding what is really going on - a security blanket to shield them from the truth.

    Finally, you ignore the fact that if a person is wearing/holding enough RFID tags in various articles on their person, then a profile of them could be made fairly easily. Since those same numbers would be stored in a DB matching the products serial to who bought it (via credit card information, or a SpeedPass-like buying system), a name could be attached to that profile. As more data is collected, the person could be easily tracked from place to place, building up a roadmap of who he visits, who he talks with, etc. This data could be seen as useless, but data on those people would be built up as well - allowing the profiling of groups and possible "organizations" of people (then we get into network theory, 6 degrees, etc).

    Lastly, part of the fear is the databases themselves with the personal data - which the individual has no access or control over. Pick up a copy of Database Nation sometime and read it. Then you will understand...

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    1. Re:Why there is fear... by dave981 · · Score: 1

      Again, all of this information is already collected today.

      To quote from a previous /.'er that fits the situation... "God help us when the government figures out how to use 'JOIN's".

  60. RFID tags and barcodes by cr0sh · · Score: 1
    I wanted to post this to find out if anybody else has seen these.

    I have in front of me something I found outside the door of my house. I have no clue how it got there.

    It is a sticker, with a barcode on it. The number in the barcode reads "79797 97979" - obviously a repeating number, thus it isn't a real barcode (most likely). It still has the backing paper on it (thus, it wasn't ever used), and it looks like someone cut it out with scissors.

    Looking on the oposite side of the barcode (ie, the backing side), I can see a reddish line around the outside edge - peeling away a corner reveals this "line" to be metallic in nature (looks like mylar or foil). There is also a metallic spiral (silver under the backing) that leads to the center of the label - whereupon is a larger red metallic square. The red silver traces also lead to that square. The center, where the square is, seems slightly thicker. There is a number "80" printed in the metallic silver next to the red square, between it and the spiral.

    Now, this thing has to be an RFID tag of some sort - although it may be a simple one. The strange thing is it appearing outside my door, overnight, in an unused condition - that, and by the appearances of the number (ie, repeating 79), that it is a test or demo tag.

    Has anyone seen these before? Does anyone have any comments, etc?

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  61. Of course the government wants to be involved! by pikester · · Score: 1
    'We are on the verge of a revolution in micro-monitoring - the capability for the highly detailed, largely automatic, widespread surveillance of our daily lives.'
    The government hates competition!
  62. I'd rather get NO marketing by Domo-Sun · · Score: 1

    wouldn't you rather get "targeted marketing" that could save you money, instead of random marketing for crap you don't use?

    I'd rather get NO marketing. If I feel like shopping, I'll go to the store. My experience with Targeted marketing is that it never really guesses what I actually want when I want it. I find store fliers are more effective because I can brows for what I need. They can also spark my interest in things that I don't need. All this AI predictions as to what I will buy next are always wrong so far. At best I get offers on things I've purchased already and hence don't need, moreover, the discounts are not very good. Therefore, Targeted ads are obnoxious.

  63. no mention of revelations made yet. by lkcl · · Score: 1

    wow, one hundred and eighty seven comments at threshold one, so far and not one of them mentions revelations.

    you know where the best place for RFID tags are placed, on humans, in order to take advantage of body heat?

    the back of the hand and the forehead.

    targetted bomb, anyone? classification of people as cattle?