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Boolean Logic : George Boole's The Laws of Thought

Ian writes "The Globe and Mail has a piece about the man behind Boolean Logic - George Boole - The Isaac Newton of logic. 'It was 150 years ago that George Boole published his classic The Laws of Thought, in which he outlined concepts that form the underpinnings of the modern high-speed computer.'"

254 comments

  1. Doesn't start out well by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Also that year, Grace Hopper, an admiral in the U.S. Navy, recorded the first computer "bug" -- a moth stuck between the relays of a pre-digital computer.

    The computer was digital, it just used relays instead of integrated circuits. It wasn't stuck between relays, it was stuck in a relay.

    And while I'm at it, a nitpick. She wasn't an admiral until much later.

    1. Re:Doesn't start out well by Spoing · · Score: 1
      1. The computer was digital, it just used relays instead of integrated circuits. It wasn't stuck between relays, it was stuck in a relay.

      I stumbled on a copy of the image of the log book, showing the moth taped to it. Quite interesting. Just to be annoying, and somewhat in spirit with this thread, here's a tip;

      1. 01101000 00111001 00110110 00110101 00110110 00110110 01101011 00101110 01101010 01110000 01100111

      If you can't figure that out, the image probably won't make much sense to you either.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    2. Re:Doesn't start out well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
    3. Re:Doesn't start out well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it: Be sure to drink your Ovaltine???

    4. Re:Doesn't start out well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1000100 1101111 1101110 100111 1110100 100000 1111001 1101111 1110101 100000 1101000 1100001 1110110 1100101 100000 1100010 1100101 1110100 1110100 1100101 1110010 100000 1110100 1101000 1101001 1101110 1100111 1110011 100000 1110100 1101111 100000 1100100 1101111 100000 1110111 1101001 1110100 1101000 100000 1111001 1101111 1110101 1110010 100000 1110100 1101001 1101101 1100101 111111

    5. Re:Doesn't start out well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are not random numbers, but actually say something interesting :-)

    6. Re:Doesn't start out well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      01001000011001010111100100101100001000000110110001 10111101101111011010110010110000100000010010010010 00000110001101100001011011100010000001110011011100 00011001010110000101101011001000000110100101101110 00100000011101000110111101101110011001110111010101 10010101110011001000000111010001101111011011110010 0001

    7. Re:Doesn't start out well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      ...which was not the first appearance of 'bug' to describe a technical problem.

      From: http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwo rdorigins/bugs

      "The first example cited in the Oxford English Dictionary is from the Pall Mall Gazette of 11 March 1889: Mr. Edison, I was informed, had been up the two previous nights discovering 'a bug' in his phonograph - an expression for solving a difficulty, and implying that some imaginary insect has secreted itself inside and is causing all the trouble. a technical problem."

    8. Re:Doesn't start out well by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 1

      In the spirit of sharing knowledge, a google for "binary to ascii" turns up this link, but you have to take the spaces out of the original string...

      Oh, and BTW, 01011001011011110111010101100000011100100110010100 10000001110111011001010110110001100011011011110110 110101100101001000000011101000101001.

  2. Boolean Logic by amigoro · · Score: 5, Funny
    A comment has to be insightful AND funny OR it is NOT worth reading.

    Moderate this comment
    Negative: Offtopic Flamebait Troll Redundant
    Positive: Insightful Interesting Informative Funny

    --


    Nothing to see here
    1. Re:Boolean Logic by NemosomeN · · Score: 5, Funny

      A comment has to be insightful AND funny XOR it is NOT worth reading. Otherwise it makes that statement almost completely meaningless... hehe.

      --
      I hate grammar Nazi's.
    2. Re:Boolean Logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you please remove that shitty thing for your sig? Especially since it hides your comments and makes it hard.

      Besides, its really vain and quite irritating.

    3. Re:Boolean Logic by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 1

      comment, interesting NAND offtopic NOR flaimbait

    4. Re:Boolean Logic by starfarer42 · · Score: 1

      No. The first formulation is correct. Comments can be insightful and funny, but still not worth reading.

    5. Re:Boolean Logic by NemosomeN · · Score: 1

      Is your comment in reference to the fact that mine was moderated both funny and insightful? *grin* Kinda ironic in that Alanis-Morisette kind of way.

      --
      I hate grammar Nazi's.
  3. Re:Sneaky political criticism and genius-bashing by BobTheLawyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm a bit confused why you mention the BBC...

  4. Re:Sneaky political criticism and genius-bashing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    it's the Global and Mail not the BBC. The example still has no place in the article but the Globe has a little more intrest in the situation than the BBC does.

  5. Isaac Newton of modern computers? by James+A.+M.+Joyce · · Score: 5, Informative

    Let's not forget Lovelace, Ritchie, Knuth, von Neumann, Turing...

    1. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Babbage, Pascal...

    2. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If these two have contributed to modern computing in any way, then it's only by making some clueless people puke their brains out instead of doing something harmful. Which is, come to think of it, quite an accomplishment.

    3. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Isaac Newton of LOGIC. Not modern computers.

      RTF Post.

    4. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lovelace was a mathemetician? And I thought she just did porn movies.

    5. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What's a girl gonna do when she's got both the good looks and mathematical genius?

      I wish there were more geek girls like her.

    6. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by tomcrick · · Score: 2, Funny

      William H. Gates III?

      Oh, on the other hand...

    7. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Can't say Ritchie was much of an Isaac Newton type. Creative and productive? Yes. Genius? No.

      Knuth, very intelligent and productive but his original contributions were not huge.

      von Neumann is a good one, as is Turing.

    8. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Andreas(R) · · Score: 1

      What about CowboyNeal, CmdrTaco, micael and the girls?

    9. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > William H. Gates III?

      "If I have seen farther (or earned more), it is because I have stepped on the backs of giants." :-)

    10. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> Lovelace was a mathemetician? And I thought she just did porn movies.

      Heh heh. Well, she *was* the daughter of Lord Byron, who was pretty much the Ron Jeremy of his day!

    11. Re:Isaac Newton of modern computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      All of these guys are wannabe hackers who either invented very poor languages or just sucked bums in the park for one reason or another
      • Richie - C (all your overflow belong to us)
      • Knuth - own braindead ASM (religios bigot by the way)
      • von Neumann - this guy set computer science back by decades by advocating stupid models of computation that were much worse than the lambda calculus people are using now.
      • Turing - invented very stupid Turing test (very unhelpful). Turing completeness wasn't invented by him, by the way
      • Lovelace - nope she did not invent ADA.
  6. Duh. Not the BBC by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

    So that's ok then... Doesn't actually alter the criticism, though...

    I was reading a BBC news page when writing the reply... Oh well, too much lager :-((

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Duh. Not the BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      It hurts to see a man at lagerheads with himself.

  7. Boole Was Ada's Teacher by amigoro · · Score: 5, Interesting
    George Boole was one of the teachers of Ada Lovelace the first computer programmer. Some people don't agree that Ada was the first computer programmer. Some people also don't think that Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine was the world's first computer.

    Moderate this comment
    Negative: Offtopic Flamebait Troll Redundant
    Positive: Insightful Interesting Informative Funny

    --


    Nothing to see here
    1. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Homology · · Score: 2, Funny

      Some people also don't think that Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine was the world's first computer.


      Some people also don't think that Earth is not flat.

    2. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Wingsy · · Score: 1

      While we're on near-trivia: it is not well known outside the binaries newsgroups, but Ada Lovelace was the great grandfather of Linda. :)

      --
      If I didn't have absolutely NOTHING to do, I wouldn't be here.
    3. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Funny
      Some people also don't think that Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine was the world's first computer.

      It was, however, the world's first vaporware.

    4. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Tyler+Eaves · · Score: 1

      Uh, Ada was *female*

      --
      TODO: Something witty here...
    5. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Telecommando · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Some people also don't think that Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine was the world's first computer.

      My general rule is, "If all it does is react passively to the Earth's magnetic field and displace it's weight in water, it's not a computer."

      Since the Analytical Engine was never completed, I feel it falls in that category.

      However, you don't need a working computer to be a programmer. I've programmed for computers that hadn't been built yet as well as some that never got off the drawing board.

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    6. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, computers that aren't yet built count as computers for you, but a computer which was too far ahead of its time doesn't count because it was never built? You know, the AE was built ten years ago and it works...

    7. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by queen+of+everything · · Score: 1

      Some people also don't think that Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine was the world's first computer.

      His analytical engine was the design for the first computer, but it was never created due to lack of funding. Herman Hollerith used the designs of the Analytical Engine and the Difference Engine of Babbages to create his Tabulating Machine (early computing device) for the company that later became International Business Machine (IBM). So, Charles Babbage is known as the father of computer for his designs, but he never had the opportunity to build his computer.

      --
      "Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the life-long attempt to acquire it." -Albert Einstein
    8. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      What about the greek Antikythera Device estimated to have been built in 82 B.C.? That's a lot older than Charles Babbage!

      =Smidge=

    9. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by geekoid · · Score: 1

      tThat what you get for watching that crap they call Tech TV.

      Which should be called:
      "All the cool things pseudo geeks want to hear so they can think they are hip on technology, and other mindless drivel."

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Boole Was Ada's Teacher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's fascinating. I've often wondered: it seems like science and technology appear fairly quickly on a geological time-scale, is it possible that life on earth has had high technology then lost it, several times?

  8. Boole tried to rewrite the Bible... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...but it apparently made even less sense in Boolean if you can believe that's even possible. And if he wasn't a Unitarian this whole mess of ours would have been in base 3.

    1. Re:Boole tried to rewrite the Bible... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article states he didn't succeed, but actually he did. The reason he decided not to publish the resulting work, was that it evaluated to 0.

    2. Re:Boole tried to rewrite the Bible... by tootlemonde · · Score: 1

      And if he wasn't a Unitarian this whole mess of ours would have been in base 3.

      Perhaps then boolean logic would have adequately handled nulls.

  9. Bug found by a Bug by jeepee · · Score: 4, Funny


    Grace Hopper Found a bug? Was it a Grasshopper?

    1. Re:Bug found by a Bug by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      You've been watching reruns again, haven't you?

    2. Re:Bug found by a Bug by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1


      I'm just trying to figure out why this article is from the 332167 department....

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
  10. Can't parse that by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    Could you supply some parentheses please?

  11. Re:Boolean Logic Demorganized by Epistax · · Score: 1

    Your OR isn't an operation. It should read:
    A comment has to be insightful AND funny, otherwise, it is NOT worth reading.
    Demorganized:
    A comment must NOT be insightful OR funny, otherwise, it is worth reading.

  12. Laws of Thought by smchris · · Score: 4, Informative


    Not in Project Guttenberg yet :(

    There's nothing like reading the original works.

    1. Re:Laws of Thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Googlian logic.

      There's a phrase waiting for a meaning.

  13. Nothing new here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    This is a dupe; Mr Boole is merely retreading the discoveries made by the Greek philosopher Aristotle. Hemocritos already posted a story on his invention of "logic". All that Boole has done is to overlay this so-called 'algebra' on top of good old predicate logic.

    1. Re:Nothing new here by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 1

      He stood on the shoulders of giants just as G. Spencer Brown stood on his shoulders.

    2. Re:Nothing new here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Mr Boole is merely retreading the discoveries made by the Greek philosopher Aristotle.

      By this argument, the entire history of mathematics is only retreading the discoveries of some guy named Og, who discovered that he could count on his fingers.

      Aristotle discovered what you might call a logical arithmetic. Except that it is a horrible one, based on a single operator (the syllogism - !(a && !b), in C syntax) which although theoretically complete is nasty to use in practice. Boole showed that logic is just math, and that you can use levels of mathematical abstraction rather than being stuck in the finger-counting concreteness of Aristotle's logic.

  14. Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I mean the "bit" as in "1 byte is 8 bits".

    Only somewhat off-topic...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by linoleo · · Score: 2, Informative

      The amount of information a yes/no answer conveys to someone with no prior knowledge. Or, if you want to get technical: an ln(2) reduction in entropy.

      --
      Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
    2. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by int69h · · Score: 1

      Binary Digit

    3. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Fred+Foobar · · Score: 1

      "Binary Digit"

      Or the more standard English definiton, a small piece of information with two possible values -- basically a binary digit.

      --
      It was a really good paper.
    4. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by riqnevala · · Score: 3, Funny

      #define bit 1

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    5. Re: Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      This is different from how I'd say it, but seems equivalent. Everyone else -- 4 other attempts at the time of this writing -- failed it. Scary, is not it?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    6. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just small, a bit is the smallest piece of information.

    7. Re: Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations, you've read the first chapter of a textbook on information theory. Is it natural to assume that everyone that needs to use the term 'bit' or a machine implementing a 'bit' or collection of 'bits' to need to know what the precise definition of a 'bit' is?

    8. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The amount of information a yes/no answer conveys to someone with no prior knowledge. Or, if you want to get technical: an ln(2) reduction in entropy.

      That's not true. The amount of entropy reduction depends on the probabilities of outcomes. It's often true that the probabilities are not equal.

    9. Re: Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      Yes, everyone needs to know this. May be, not the "precise definition", but certainly something better than "binary digit".

      This is -- as you point out -- the foundation of Informatics, a crucial part of the all-encompassing Computer Science.

      Not knowing this causes DB tables with 15-character fields for IP-addresses, 32-characters for MD5 checksums, and other monstrocities all too common nowadays...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    10. Re: Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lozzer · · Score: 1

      Not knowing where a dictionary can be found causes such monstrosities as monstrocities

      --
      Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
    11. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      Does not "with no prior knowledge" say, the values are equally probable? Certainly, that is an important part of the definition, and the explanation of, for example, why archiving (compressing) can exist...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    12. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Does not "with no prior knowledge" say, the values are equally probable?

      My bad; you're right. I missed that in my read.

      Certainly, that is an important part of the definition, and the explanation of, for example, why archiving (compressing) can exist...

      Very much so.

    13. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Binary Digit.
      Jackass.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    14. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      There can be less. If I told you your name (or anything else you already knew) -- that would be zero information. If I told you something, you did not know, but suspected, it would be above zero, but, possibly (depending on the number of other choices) less than a bit.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    15. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      Binary Digit

      Most typicly wrong. You are merely explaining, where the word "bit" is coming from. I asked for the definition of the term. Try defining meter (as in kilometer) as a homework. And no: "It is something, that's metered," is not going to cut it.

      Jackass

      Thanks, moron.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    16. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      A meter is a bit different. The length of a meter is in relation to the size of the earth, a bit has no such dependency on anything external to itself.

      Like I said before, a bit is a binary digit, 1 or 0.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    17. Re: Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, everyone needs to know this. May be, not the "precise definition", but certainly something better than "binary digit". This is -- as you point out -- the foundation of Informatics, a crucial part of the all-encompassing Computer Science. Not knowing this causes DB tables with 15-character fields for IP-addresses, 32-characters for MD5 checksums, and other monstrocities all too common nowadays...

      Bull-shit. Not knowing what a bit is does lead to '15-character fields for IP-addresses' and so on, that I could have agreed with. But your claim that thinking that bit just means 'binary digit' leads to such stupidities is ridiculous. As a hobby I like to write programs for 8bit computers where memory is limited. And even though I would have answered 'binary digit' to your question and I had never heard of that 'ln(2) reduction in entropy' thing, I'm still really good at packing information into the least possible numbers of bits on those old 8bit'ers.

    18. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      Bzz. Wrong on both counts. Last time meter was defined in a way you describe was in 1795.

      Meter is a measure of distance. Bit is a measure of information. Both have definitions.

      Your not knowing this foundation of Informatics -- despite it being offered and discussed elsewhere in this very thread perfectly illustrates my original point (moderated off-topic by now).

      [Your stubborn insistence on "1 or 0" (what happened to "left or right", "black or white", then?), coupled with calling me "Jackass" point at several personality flaws too, but that's really off-topic]

      Try the 6th meaning in this page, for example...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    19. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      From the web page you linked.

      Throughout all these definition changes the length of the meter has not changed, but the precision by which it is measured was improved.

      Left, right, black and white are not digits, therefore not bits.

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    20. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      Zeros and ones are not bits either... I tried. I tried hard. I mentioned the definition of bit in this thread and I gave you a link to one of the online dictionaries, which offers a different (simpler!), but equivalent definition. If you still don't get it and insist on the stupid "binary digit" crap, there is no hope for you. You are, officially, a moron, and I can only pray, I never have to depend on a program written with your participation.

      Good bye...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    21. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      So what you are really asking is "What do I mean when I say 'bit'?".

      You asked for someone to define, bit; I and several others did just that. I guess you were expecting people to marvel at your intellectual prowess. You find yourself pointedly mistaken. All you have done is show your inability to deal with the meaning of such common words as "define" and "meaning".

      I see no chance for us to find common ground on virtually any issue, I've seen your posts that amount to very thinly veiled defense of the cowardly murder of a wheelchair bound old man.

      I could go on a long Off-Topic rant here about how there is only one country on this planet that routinely engages in assassination as a form of diplomacy and question your sanity and principles for supporting that, but I won't.

      My first impression of you was accurate, you are a jackass.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    22. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      So, your ignorance of Informatics exposed, you are switching to my personality flaws and -- of all things -- the Israeli-Arab conflict?

      You asked for someone to define, bit; I and several others did just that.

      No, you did not. Despite you (and several others) repeating it, "binary digit" is not the definition of bit. A bit may be (and often is) represented by a binary digit, but colors (black/red, for instance), or materials (wood/glass) can be used just as well. But, I'm sorry, this is, evidently too deep for you, and makes me look even more arrogant :-)

      At best, you "and several others" only knew, what the word itself is derived from. I did not ask for "my definition" -- in fact, I acknowledged someone else's as different from what I knew, but equivalent...

      Being called a "jackass" by your kind is hardly insulting :-), but I'll explain myself -- again. Because, who knows, someone else may still be following this thread. The question of "bit" is particularly sensitive to me, who have seen a few too many DB tables, where CHAR(15) was allocated for IPv4 addresses and/or CHAR(32) for md5-checksums. I find such things revolting and they are a consequence of the designer's ignorance of the definition of bit...

      I've seen your posts that amount to very thinly veiled defense of the cowardly murder of a wheelchair bound old man.

      Sheikh Yassin (blind 67-year old quadriplegic) was a terrorist. A childhood accident paralyzed him, so he was unable to personally harm anyone (although his 11 children demonstrate, that his spirit was high). Yet he is directly responsible for planning and encouraging hundreds of attacks on civilians. Not, mind you, attacks, that also resulted in civilian casualties, but attacks, in which the civilians were the primary targets. He was already in the Israeli jail once, but was released in a prisoner exchange in 1996 (or '97). This is why Israel is only talking about his actions since then -- merely 425 bombings were claimed by Hamas since 1997...

      I could go on a long Off-Topic rant here about how there is only one country on this planet that routinely engages in assassination as a form of diplomacy and question your sanity and principles for supporting that, but I won't.

      Good, because you've already made several factual errors. At this rate, a "long rant" would've been impossible to comprehensively respond to :-). Israel does not call these attacks "diplomacy" (you can't negotiate with someone, who simply wants you dead), nor "assassinations". These are acts of war. Most of them are retaliatory, some are preventive. The first shots in the war were fired in 1947-8 by the Arabs (who, en masse, continue to reject Israel's right to exist), and the war continued since then. You have a lot of catching up on History to do (in addition to Informatics) before you can be taken seriously by anyone other than other compassionate ignoramusen.

      Here is the crash-course for you. Once you are done, try finding a "left wing" site talking about the subject, and read that for a balanced view.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    23. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      By your reasoning, a bit can have a value that takes more than a bit to store.

      I reject that notion. Depending on the application at hand you may need to differentiate between "right and left" or "red and blue" and so on, but those values get reduced to either "1" or "0".

      If you want to start pointing to links, I have one for you.

      No reasonable person is going to dispute Israel's right to exist. My problem lies in the fact that their behavior and our relationship with them paints a big bullseye on the US. I can't support that.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    24. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      By your reasoning, a bit can have a value that takes more than a bit to store.

      Who is talking about storage? Sorry, to ask a question, one needs to know half of the answer. You only know about 10%. I'd be willing to explain "bit" to anyone in person, but this is the wrong forum. Ask someone else -- and be sure, not to call them "jackass" first.

      No reasonable person is going to dispute Israel's right to exist.

      One -- every single one of Hamas members rejects this right -- says so in the organization's charter. I'm glad, we agree, that Sheikh Yassin was not a reasonable person. Two, if Israel has the right to exist, it must also have the right to defend its existance and its citizens. Hamas is one of her most active enemies, and fights her with arms and bombs (not a "Cold War"). I don't understand your problem with Israel fighting back...

      Most of the statements in the link you provided are worded with the skill of PR professional and provide not background nor details. For example:

      Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions? A: Israel. Should be "by military force applied in defending itself against aggression" -- in the 1967 war Israel was attacked by 5 neighbors.

      Also, I'm not sure, which territory this is about. Gaza and West Bank? They were not "sovereign" territory, but merely ruled by Egypt and Jordan respectively from 1948 to 1967... Golan Heights? That's Syria, with which the war is still not over.

      The UN resolution alluded to is, most probably, the 242, under which Israel is entitled to hold all the territory acquired in 1967 until a durable and fair peace is achieved. Resolution 338 is in similar terms. Israel gave Sinai (several times bigger than the Israel itself) back to Egypt upon signing the peace agreement with Nasser. Neither Egypt, nor Jordan have any more territorial claims to Israel.

      Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with arplanes and artillery and naval gunfire? A: Israel. The poor violated country is, probably, Lebanon. Ronald Hilton (the author of the page) is certainly aware of the constant across the border attacks from the Lebanon side by the nice people calling themselves Hezbollah (part of God). Yes, a friend of mine served in Israeli artillery, every once in a while they tried to hit Hezbollah's rocket launchers, which have just fired on the Israeli villages or towns... Lebanon -- after 20 years of brutal civil war is not capable of reigning in Hezbollah. Blaming Israel for such "violations" can only be done by someone, who rejects Israel's right to exist... Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S.vetoes? A: Israel. Q: What country is the United States threatening to bomb because "U.N.Security Council resolutions must be obeyed?" A: Iraq UN charter defines different levels of resolutions. The ones condemning Iraq are of the most grave nature -- "threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, and acts of aggression". Israel was never called anything like that by UN... Q: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister? A: Israel. I don't know, which U.N. diplomat Ronald has in mind here. (Neither do you, I suspect). But what Ronald is not telling us, is that Israel is the only democracy in the region. And that all prime ministers took office through true democratic process.

      I could go on, but this is not the forum and the post is already big enough...

      My problem lies in the fact that their behavior and our relationship with them paints a big

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    25. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      I apologize, it was just laziness on my part. The list on that page was originally published by the Orlando Sentinel in Feb of 1998. I just did a google search for a phrase that I knew was contained in the list. Ronald's page was the first result.

      Glad to see, you are no longer so whipped up about that "murder of an old man" you brought up earlier...

      That still upsets me, make no mistake, but the bigger problem and the one that is more relevent to MY life is the US's relationship with Israel, the way that my country supports the Israelis no matter what they do and causes terrorists to hate us by extention.

      Whenever former Nazis turned up in South America, they were captured, alive. They were tried. They went to jail. Those cases were handled as they should have been. The guilty were punished. A crippled Arab is apparently less deserving than Nazi war criminals.

      We did not have to paint a bullseye on ourselves for Germany by helping Britain out in WW2. Certainly, Hitler wouldn't have attacked us merely for fighting his ally (Japan). Not until he was done with Britain and USSR, that is.

      Until Pearl Harbor, it wasn't out fight.

      Standing up for Israel is the Right Thing, and I'm glad, US keeps doing it despite occasional calls for appeasement from the misguided parts of the electorate.

      Right for whom? I am unwilling to die for Israel. That's what happened to 3,000 of our people two and half years ago. They died because of my country's affiliation with Israel. For example, the most notorius example of Post WWII Germany was when Israeli athletes were killed at the Munich olympics. Athletes from around the world were there, the Israelis were the targets. No one else. How did Israel respond? By executing those that THEY decided were responsible, no trials, no formal presentation of evidence, just Israeli commandos and lethal weapons. Nothing has changed for them in 30 years.

      The terrorists do not demand money. Their war is against the Western Civilization.

      It's a war against the allies of Israel. There have been Muslims for over 1400 years, they've been blowing things up for less than a century. What's changed?

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    26. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      A crippled Arab is apparently less deserving than Nazi war criminals.

      The crippled Arab was already in Israeli jail once, and was released in a prisoner exchange. Since the release, he encouraged, organized or helped organized over 400 bombings...

      From legal perspective, those Nazi criminals were living in sovereign countries. Even kidnapping them was legally dubious, justified mostly by the countries' internal instabilities at the time. Finally, the trials were needed to ensure (and prove to the world), the persons were not victims of mistaken identity and to expose their crimes. None of this was needed in case of Yassin. No one doubts, he (or those killed by Israel after the Munich bombings) were guilty of the things alleged. The only objections are of the "yes, but ..." kind.

      Until Pearl Harbor, it wasn't out fight.

      Pearl Harbor put us into war against Japan. American sailors, drowing in convoys torpedoed by German U-boats, did not have to "die for Britain". For example, USSR -- busy with Hitler -- did not attack Japan until 1945. Yet we did attack German interests and continued to supply Britain with food and materiel -- and that was the Right Thing to do.

      They [WTC/Pentagon victims] died because of my country's affiliation with Israel.

      Mmm, no. Osama bin Laden's grudge was the presence of the infidel American soldiers in the holy areas of Saudi Arabia -- the result of our action to defend Kuwait.

      Whatever our reasons for supporting (or not supporting) Israel, we should not allow a foreign power (such as Al' Qaeda) to affect our policy by force -- especially terrorism (as, sadly, they seem to have successfully done in Spain). That's nothing, but giving up sovereignity...

      There have been Muslims for over 1400 years,

      Many aggressive wars were launched during those 1400 hundred years in the name of Islam -- some by the Prophet himself.

      they've been blowing things up for less than a century. What's changed?

      Better explosives -- mostly. But also the failure of the "conventional" methods. Be that Algerian rebels fighting their colonial power (France) in the fifties with civilian-targetting bombings, or the modern Palestinian menace, they all followed the failure of regular forces. PLO organized in 1964 (three years before the "occupation") and was figthing Israel in conventional ways. The were completely defeated and Israel routed them from Lebanon, so now they use suicide bombs.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    27. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      The crippled Arab was already in Israeli jail once, and was released in a prisoner exchange. Since the release, he encouraged, organized or helped organized over 400 bombings...

      Allegedly.

      Even kidnapping them was legally dubious, justified mostly by the countries' internal instabilities at the time.

      Kidnapping is never justified. However, at least they were granted trials.

      None of this was needed in case of Yassin. No one doubts, he (or those killed by Israel after the Munich bombings) were guilty of the things alleged. The only objections are of the "yes, but ..." kind.

      Not the only objections. Israel is claiming the moral high ground. You can not do that when you're killing unarmed people without trials.

      Osama bin Laden's grudge was the presence of the infidel American soldiers in the holy areas of Saudi Arabia -- the result of our action to defend Kuwait.

      Your use of the word Infidel tells much. As translated from arabic an Infidel is more than an unbeliever. To be an infidel, as opposed to simply an unbeliever, you must be seen as hostile towards islam. It is the nature of the US's relationship with Israel that makes that difference.

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    28. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      Allegedly.

      Do you have any doubts? As for the legalities, consider killing him an act of war. Nobody expects one side in a war to try each officer/soldier of the other side, prior to killing him/her.

      Israel is claiming the moral high ground. You can not do that when you're killing unarmed people without trials.

      Unable to hold a weapon personally, he was still armed -- by several personal (well armed) bodyguards and the Hamas organization in general. In a war you don't put enemies on trial. You kill them before they kill you. Israel's moral ground is much higher because they didn't start the war neither the current one, nor any of the previous ones, and because they don't target civilians -- I think, I mentioned that... In any case, I'm glad you moved from complaining about cowardly murder to discussing the relative highness of the moral ground... I may be inclined to leave things at this.

      Your use of the word Infidel tells much. As translated from Arabic an Infidel is more than an unbeliever. To be an infidel, as opposed to simply an unbeliever, you must be seen as hostile towards Islam. It is the nature of the US's relationship with Israel that makes that difference

      That did not bother Osama until 1991 when American soldiers were deployed in Middle East in vast numbers to restore Kuwait.

      Anyway, my objections to allowing terrorists influence American policies in their favor still stand.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    29. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Do you have any doubts?

      In all honesty, I haven't looked at any of the evidence pro or con. But "Because Israel says so" isn't good enough for me.

      As for the legalities, consider killing him an act of war.

      From the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949)

      In all circumstances, the accused persons shall benefit by safeguards of proper trial and defence, which shall not be less favourable than those provided by Article 105 and those following of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of 12 August 1949. Art. 147.

      Even war has rules.

      In a war you don't put enemies on trial.

      Not enemies who are on the battlefield. Ones who sit in wheelchairs away from the field of battle are not combatents. They are not subject to the same treatment as soldiers on the field of battle.

      In any case, I'm glad you moved from complaining about cowardly murder to discussing the relative highness of the moral ground.

      To me, they are the same issue.

      I may be inclined to leave things at this.

      We'll never convince each other, we're just distilling our viewpoints.

      That did not bother Osama until 1991 when American soldiers were deployed in Middle East in vast numbers to restore Kuwait.

      I suspect that he had his hands too full with the Soviets before that time. In any case, we hadn't deployed troops in Arabia then.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    30. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      But "Because Israel says so" isn't good enough for me.

      Yassin himself saying it in public as a Hamas official is not enough for you? With other Hamas officials corroborating it and promising more? It is for me... The blindest truly are those, who wouldn't see...

      In all circumstances, the accused persons shall benefit by safeguards of proper trial and defence, which shall not be less favourable than those provided by Article 105 and those following of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of 12 August 1949. Art. 147.

      Even war has rules.

      You are misreading it. By this logic, it is illegal to target enemy's high command -- anyone not directly on the battlefield. If we accept your interpretation, US shouldn't have targeted Saddam in his bunker, for example.

      In any case, we hadn't deployed troops in Arabia then.

      Exactly my point -- we upset him by deploying in Arabia, which we did to protect Kuwait -- a Muslim nation, BTW. Not because of Israel (however hard Saddam tried to bring Israel into war).

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    31. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Yassin himself saying it in public as a Hamas official is not enough for you? With other Hamas officials corroborating it and promising more?

      Groups like Hamas would claim responsibility for any act that they thought would advance their cause.

      By this logic, it is illegal to target enemy's high command -- anyone not directly on the battlefield. If we accept your interpretation, US shouldn't have targeted Saddam in his bunker, for example.

      Exactly.

      Exactly my point -- we upset him by deploying in Arabia, which we did to protect Kuwait -- a Muslim nation, BTW. Not because of Israel (however hard Saddam tried to bring Israel into war).

      The theory is (I can't say I agree or disagree at this point, but it sounds plausible enough to me) that the US encouraged Iraq to invade Kuwait. April Glaspie told Saddam that the US wasn't concerned with Arab-Arab conflicts. Once the invasion had occured, we used that as a pretext to put our soldiers on the ground.

      I can't say that I believe 100% in that theory, but it does make a great deal of sense, so I can't discount it 100% either.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    32. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      By this logic, it is illegal to target enemy's high command -- anyone not directly on the battlefield.

      Exactly.

      This may be your feeling, but it is not the letter, nor the spirit of the Geneva Conventions. Targeting the enemy commanders -- wherever they are -- is a "fair game" in any war.

      You don't approve of Saddam's bunker busting... What about Osama bin Laden -- how many lives are you willing to spend to capture him alive, so he can stand trial, as opposite to killing him?

      Had the Convention you quoted been signed prior to WW2, would you object to Allies' attempts to kill Hitler in his bunker? Or to the successful attempt on Yamamoto? Where is the line in your mind, beyond which an enemy officer is untouchable? Does he have to be a major or colonel -- or is it the distance from the battlefield (if there is any!)? What about the helpless Japanese soldiers, who sunk in transports on their way to reinforce harrisons (sp?) on the islands -- should US have waited for them to dig into trenches or tried to detain them?

      Sorry, your interpretation is not sensible... And if you read the rest of the text you quoted, you may just be able to see, where you are wrong. But after the "bit" fiasco, I'm not hopeful...

      Once the invasion [of Iraq into Kuwait] had occurred, we used that as a pretext to put our soldiers on the ground.

      And all this to what -- to help Israel? How? Sorry, it seems like some of those rays got through your tinfoil hat...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    33. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Binary digit is not only origin of the word. It is a very fitting definition. Now just define "binary" and "digit". Another definition is the smallest amount of information possible, may take only two distinct values.

      Meter: Basic unit of length/distance in SI system. One cubic meter of water in room temperature and atmospheric pressure weights 1 ton=1000kg. kg is defined as mass of some natural number of some kind of atoms (a carbon isotope, I don't remember ATM). Different definitions of meter are derived from the iridium pattern device or from wavelengths of elements.

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    34. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      Not quite. "Binary digit" is not any harder to define, than a decimal or a hex one. But that is not the definition of bit. It is just the common representation. And no, it is not "the smallest amount of information possible" -- there is no such thing. And the two distinct values you mention have to be equally probable -- the crucial part of the definition... Meter is currently being defined as the distance, light travels in vacuum in certain fraction of a second. See elsewhere in this thread for links.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    35. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      And the two distinct values you mention have to be equally probable

      So, the Carry Bit is...what? if the value "1" appears on average 255 times more rarely than "0"? Bits have nothing (or at least very little) in common with probability, and bit is amount of information that distinguishes exactly two distinct, mutually exclusive and complementary states - their probability is completely irrevelant, except that it must add up to 1. But don't tell me a bit that describes whether to lit "jackpot" in a slot machine or not, whenever you pull the handle, each time has 50% chance of being set. And don't tell me it's not a bit. Sorry. I think you mixed definition of bit used in informatics with something from fuzzy logic or something like that.

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    36. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Back to the meter too. I defined the word "meter": unit of length in system SI. (as in question). You defined "one meter", as what exactly does SI system mean by that. Want definition of a bit again? piece of metal held in horse's mouth by reins and used to control the horse while riding.

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    37. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      My original request was for a definition of bit as in "byte is 8 bits", so riding equipment does not fit. Read through other follow-ups, such as this one, which offers links to both "meter" and "bit".

      And yes, probability is important. Unequal probability of the options allows for amounts of information of less than a bit. For example, suppose Kerry has better chances to win the election. If I travel to the future, come back and tell you, he won indeed, that amount of information would be less than a bit. If I brought you the news, Bush will be the winner, that's more than a bit, because it seemed less probable today. Another example is telling someone, what they already know for sure -- that's just zero information, however many words were said.

      This is why, BTW, archivers (zip, arj) can exist and are sometimes so efficient -- the data being compressed is never random and the values of each bit are not really equally probable.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    38. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Sorry to say that, but this doesn't apply to "there are 8 bits in a byte".
      For the same exact reason. If you travel back in time and tell me Kerry will win, you just set the value of a bit to one state, making probability of the opposite option equal 0. It is still a bit information though. True no information is an amount of information so the "smallest possible amount" is nonexact. Smallest non-zero amount of information" would be better. BTW, "Kerry will win" is way more than 1 bit. It contains identification of the object (election of US president), definition of states (Kerry wins/loses) and its outcome. What we mean is we want you to send us the answer to the question "Will Kerry win?" so we send you to the future, and you, say, may apply some obscure heisenbergish examination to a single particle sending the information back in time, a single bit, 0 or 1, that says whether it's true or not. You passed one bit of information. And it doesn't matter if we knew it already - you just sent some redundant data. We consider the data in state as-is, not in state as-it-might-be-if-compressed where it reaches highest entropy and bits are actually equiprobable. The problem is that the equiprobable bits in compressed state, taken separately don't carry any information. Only taken as a whole, uncompressing them, allows to retrieve the information, which is usually much longer than a single bit. Also note their values will be equiprobable only while describing information of infinite size or equiprobable values. If we have an information that consists of several, non-equiprobable states, and that don't allow for division by powers of 2, (i.e. not 0.5+0.25+0.125+0.125 but 0.4+0.3+0.3) then the bits in compressed state won't be equiprobable either, only as close to equiprobability as possible. But "Will Bush win?" is a bit information and has two non-equiprobable values, 0 and 1, and fact that combined with listing of, say, 30 past republican candidates, "which republican candidates won?" information can be written in less than 30 bits, doesn't change it.

      BTW, ask Google to define:bit and see how many sites list what answers. Compare numbers.

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    39. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1

      In a word: "wrong". Sorry, your reasoning shows, you are too far away for me to teach you on this forum. Try a local college professor, perhaps...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    40. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Those who wrote how many programs?
      I guess the person who issued the definition of 'bit' you use, didn't know what a 'byte' is at that time.

      If I use a word to describe a random variable of linear propagation, suddenly the highest nybble stops consisting of 4 bits, because their value isn't equiprobable at all? I mean, they are zeros way more often than ones?

      What you define isn't a bit "as in a byte".

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    41. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      Those who wrote how many programs?

      Programming and informatics are related, but not at all the same. Many "prolific" programmers, unfortunately, don't know the basics of informatics and thus create the stupidities like CHAR(15) DB columns intended to store IP addresses.

      A byte, in my book, is 8 bits -- the amount of information needed to choose one option out of 256 equally probable ones.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    42. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      So, if you have an information which has 256 not equally probable options, you can write a program that will encode the information onto variable number of bits that on average is smaller than 8. Okay, that's true, but for that you always use a natural number of bits nevertheless. With three options of any non-zero probability, you have to use 1 to 2 bits, depending on the option values. Not less. With two options, no matter what their probability, the information MUST be encoded on one bit because this is the smallest, atomic unit of information that cannot be split any further. Beyond that is just zero, lack of information. The "equiprobable" part of the definition could make sense while defining larger data entities - byte, kilobyte, megabyte, even a nybble with not equiprobable bits can be reduced to less than 4 bits "on average" (though that means some of the 16 states will take MORE than 4 bits, but the average number will be less than 4). With unit of 2-state result, a bit is the least, because despite the fact with larger entities the -average- length may be fractional, with 0/1 type information, it's always 1 bit long.

      BTW, if you that "0/1 slot" thing, we, common hackers call "bit", one that can store exactly 2 distinct values of arbitrary, complementary probablility, isn't really a bit, what the hell is this?

      I guess the definition you use is taken from quantum computers, where because of uncertainities etc, data can consist of fractional number of bits. In common computing, squeezing the "equiprobable" into the definition is plain redundant. The definition works equally well without it. True you need exactly one bit to store distinction between two equiprobable states. But if the states aren't equiprobable any less won't do and any more will be redundant.

      I also guess why this redundancy takes place. It's not because it's needed to define a bit. It's for defining the byte and such. Definition of "byte is amount of information equal 8 bits". won't work without the "equiprobable" piece. But still, 8 is the least maximum number of bits to store 256 distinct states, and every programmer will they prefer the little redundancy in average data size they handle just to keep the data units equal, over maintaining huffman tables to recover values from the huffman tree, so even if you omit the "equiprobable" in the 256 values, the definition although becoming invalid, is still most fitting.

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    43. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      I guess the definition you use is taken from quantum computers

      No. This is the definition. It comes from the discipline called Infomatics (or Information Theory) and, AFAIK, existed long before quantum computers.

      In common computing, squeezing the "equiprobable" into the definition is plain redundant. The definition works equally well without it. True you need exactly one bit to store distinction between two equiprobable states. But if the states aren't equiprobable any less won't do and any more will be redundant.

      But 200 bits can practically be squeezed into less if they are not equiprobable... If one needs too.

      and every programmer will they prefer the little redundancy in average data size they handle just to keep the data units equal, over maintaining huffman tables to recover values from the huffman tree

      These are practical engineering matters. I was talking about theoretical scientific ones.

      Still, a theory-savvy engineer will realize, for example, he only needs 4 bytes to store an IP address, when, say, logging web-server hits to a database, but a theory-ignorant one will allocate CHAR(15), because he knows, that is faster than VARCHAR(15) :-) Four bytes is almost the theoretical minimum (which is slightly less, because certain netblocks can never be seen) and practically is good enough...

      Likewise with message digests. People are used to seeing their hex representations and most will allocate a CHAR(32) column for the md5 hashes (or a char[33] array), instead of the mere 16 bytes required. In this case, the absolute theoretical minimum is easily reachable.

      In other words achieving the theoretical limits is not always impractically difficult. But a good engineer needs to be able to estimate the difference between his solution and the theoretical limits and make an informed decision on whether (and how far) to optimize. A good understanding of what "bit" is, is a requirement...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    44. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      ...and a theory-savvy scientist will allocate varchar(255) that in most cases is 3 bytes long but takes really variable sizes because IP address number bits aren't equiprobable. (take unused A classes, the E class, restricted address ranges etc). And all tech-savvy engineers will curse him for that, because instead of simple 4-byte readout they save 20K of diskspace in database and spend 30M on writing stats gathering programs that build the Huffman tree, on-the-fly decompressors, and many more.

      Knowing a bit is a binary digit and knowing how many bytes an IP address is, is more useful in designing a reasonable system than knowing the theory... Most people who use the "equiprobable" bit definition in daily work, don't know how many bits an IP address is.

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    45. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by mi · · Score: 1
      ...and a theory-savvy scientist will allocate varchar(255) that in most cases is 3 bytes long but takes really variable sizes because IP address number bits aren't equiprobable.

      Sorry, I can't understand this. You seem to have taken me as taking sides in the theory-vs.-practice debate. I don't...

      The "equiprobable" part is crucial to the definition's correctness. And correctness is, well, just crucial ;-)

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    46. Re:Quick, how many here can define "bit"? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      The definition doesn't contain "average" which would be crucial to necessity of the "equiprobable" part. Say you are receiving not-quite-random 512-bit values. Even if you know their propagation and know they usually can be compressed to 400 bits each average, it would be unwise to create a buffer less than 512 bits long, simply because in case of simple bad luck, if the value consists purely of the rare variant of perfect white noise (non-zero probability of such event), your buffer would fail. Thus despite 400 is the average least number of bits you need to encode it, 512 is the granted minimum. Least amount of data that CAN distinguish n states, as opposed to MAY.

      Only in infinite amounts, "non-equiprobable" grant sufficient amount of order in entropy. Otherwise the ballance is not granted. You get a pipe that generates 0's about thrice as often as ones. For n->inf, you will need about n/4 bits to record n values from the stream. But how many bits do you need to safely catch 8 values from this pipe?

      Simply, information is damn nonlinear thing and definitions that hold for small numbers don't automatically translate into large numbers. A hungry dog hunts well, hungrier dog hunts better. One bit is amount of data that can describe two states appearing in proportion of 1:3 cases. 1000 bits can describe much more than 2000 such pairs of states.

      The problem is that 1m/s is certain speed and we safely can define it using newtonian standards, then add 5m/s+5m/s=10m/s and completely ignore the problem that 500000000m/s+500000000m/s isn't 1000000000m/s at all. That "equiprobable" piece of the definition is the same as (1-v/c)^-1/2 bit in all dynamics equations. You may shout the definition without is wrong, but knowing it is about as usable for average programmer is like knowing theory of relativity for a car racer. dv/dt and 0 or 1. If we need more, we ask profesors or buy books.

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      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  15. Re:Sneaky political criticism and genius-bashing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    WTF does any of this have to do with the BBC?

    Why when someone does ground-breaking work in a new field, does some later plod (ie: someone who *didn't* do the ground-breaking work) say something like....
    Uhh, because it's useful and true? We could pretend Boole is some sort of God and strike down those who speak ill of him, or we could instead, you know, actually do something useful with his work.

  16. Why... by Phosphor3k · · Score: 5, Funny

    Offtopic: Why did it take me 15 seconds to realize the word "Google" was no where in the story title? Anyone else have that problem?

    1. Re:Why... by Epistax · · Score: 1

      The same thing happened to me! I read things in a very strange way and I read it as "Google" (G + Boole".

    2. Re:Why... by Bobman1235 · · Score: 1

      Offtopic: Why did it take me 15 seconds to realize the word "Google" was no where in the story title? Anyone else have that problem?

      Not only that, but I got really excited that Google was finally going to have boolean search queries.

      Alas....

    3. Re:Why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google does have *some* boolean search functionality(not yet complete),see here.

    4. Re:Why... by Brian+Puccio · · Score: 1

      Ditto. Not sure why that happened.

    5. Re:Why... by matt4077 · · Score: 1

      yep, ditto. funny i'm not the only.

      Then again, probably 10k people read an article so at least 5 others just went to the store and bought a coke, too

    6. Re:Why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      same here....

    7. Re:Why... by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      It is cmomon knweldoge taht hmuan biengs prceoss informiotan in shuc a way that mkaes yuor conuifsion undstanedrable.

      If you read that in under 10 seconds, you just proved my ponit.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  17. John von Neumann by Jagasian · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think Turing and von Neumann had far more to do with the underpinnings of modern computers than Boole.

    Boole's great acheivement was his attempt to formalize logic algebraically at a time when logic was informal and far too meta for even mathematicians to consider formally. While this is great and all, it doesn't result in a general purpose computer.

    However, Turing machines and von Neumann machines are in everyway a general purpose computer.

    1. Re:John von Neumann by ebbomega · · Score: 1, Informative

      Turing machines utilized Boolean logic. At the very base of processor design, you have these things called "gates" which take signals ("on" xor "off", 1 xor 0, high voltage xor low voltage) and process them in a boolean test..... Like, say:

      1 OR 0 evaluates to a signal that says "1"
      1 AND 0 evaluates to a signal that says "0"
      NOT 0 evaluates to "1"
      etc. etc.

      You can then design these gates to go on to make more complicated items key in processor design: encoders, decoders, multiplexors, latches, flip-flops, counters, adders, registers, arithmetic and logic units (ALUs), data paths, data controls, and ultimately a modern processor.

      Boolean logic is at the VERY HEART of all this stuff, so, yeah, this has a LOT to do with computers.

      --
      Karma: Non-Heinous
    2. Re:John von Neumann by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You're misinterpreting him. He's not saying that computers have nothing to do with boolean algebra, just that von Neumann and Turing have MORE to do with computers than Boole does. Computers use elecricity, but that doesn't mean that the people who discovered electricity somehow created computers.

      FYI, Turing machines as the mathematical model use no boolean logic per se.

    3. Re:John von Neumann by Jagasian · · Score: 1

      You obviously have no idea whatsoever what a Turing machine is. Turing machines don't use "gates". I can't believe that your post was moderated as informative.

      I don't have time to give you a computer science lesson on Turing machines, but just Google it and read up on what they are.

    4. Re:John von Neumann by niittyniemi · · Score: 1


      > I think Turing and von Neumann had far more to do with
      > the underpinnings of modern computers than Boole.


      Q. How would Turing and von Neumann have done their work without Boolean algebra?

      Your attempt to categorise Boole, Neumann and Turing in some sort of hierarchy when it comes to computing doesn't make any sense.

      Newton's words about having stood upon the shoulders of giants comes to mind. Newton realised he couldn't have done his work on calculus etc. without Euclid and the others before him.

      s/Euclid/Boole/ in this case.

      --
      The Machine stops.
    5. Re:John von Neumann by UserGoogol · · Score: 2, Informative

      No they don't. Turing Machines are an entirely theoretical construct, which by some standards never have actually been created. (Due to an unforeseen shortage in infinitely long tape.)

      You have this little box which has an infinitely long tape fed into it. The box is a finite state machine which reads the tape, and based upon the state of the machine, writes to the tape, moves the tape left or right, and maybe changes its internal state.

      There's a kind of neat Turing Machine Simulator here if you want.

      --
      "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." -- Hanlon's Razor
    6. Re:John von Neumann by Jagasian · · Score: 1

      Actually the tape doesn't need to be infinite. It only needs to be unbounded. So at any given time the tape can be finite, but also at any given time you might have to add another piece of tape in a hot-swappable plug-in-play way.

      The internet functions in this way. At any given time, people are adding more servers and therefore more tape to the net.

    7. Re:John von Neumann by Jagasian · · Score: 1

      You are overstating the importance of Boole's work with regards to Turing or Neumann's work. Study a little metamathematics and you will see that with regards to the stream of ideas that lead to Turing machines... Boole's are almost non-existent.

    8. Re:John von Neumann by UserGoogol · · Score: 1

      I was actually going to mention that. But the "an unforeseen shortage in infinitely long tape" is just too good a joke to give up, and I didn't want to make the post too wordy.

      --
      "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." -- Hanlon's Razor
  18. Funny name by DRUNK_BEAR · · Score: 4, Funny

    Am I the only one who finds that name Grace Hopper and the expression "computer bug" go well together? :oP

    --
    DrkBr
    1. Re:Funny name by Amiga+Lover · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who finds that name Grace Hopper and the expression "computer bug" go well together? :oP

      For anyone who didn't get it (and it seems nobody has, yet, judging by your moderation)... Grace Hopper... Gracehopper... grasshopper... bug... squish. relay. etc

    2. Re:Funny name by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 1
      Discipline your body, GraceHopper, that you may find a greater power. . . . Those who surrender themselves find inner strength...When the heart knows no danger, no danger exists. When the soul becomes the warrior all fear melts as the snowflake that falls upon your hand

      "'How does one find the strength within himself?'

      'By being one with all that is without himself.'

  19. Uh.... that's uh... nice...? by ebbomega · · Score: 1

    BBC is British. Globe and Mail is Canadian. One has nothing to do with the other.

    --
    Karma: Non-Heinous
    1. Re:Uh.... that's uh... nice...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BBC is a communications network. Globe and Mail is a newspaper. Otherwise, Canada and Great Britain has quite a bit to do with each other. The English have been oppressing us for nearly 200 years.

    2. Re:Uh.... that's uh... nice...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some oppression. Canada is consistently leader in UN 'best country to live in' grading. Yeah, you sound like a Quebecer who's been brainwashed.
      Wake up, man!

    3. Re:Uh.... that's uh... nice...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the people that design Canadian currency.

    4. Re:Uh.... that's uh... nice...? by ebbomega · · Score: 1

      Uh... The English? You mean how British Parliament doesn't pass laws that we are involved with? Or how the representative to the queen who is appointed by our prime minister rubber stamps all our legislation?

      Or how Conrad Black controls both the major news media of Britain and The National Post, which is, incidentally enough, _NOT_ The Globe And Mail.

      I'm missing your logic at how we're being oppressed by Britain when they have zero control over us except by name.

      --
      Karma: Non-Heinous
    5. Re:Uh.... that's uh... nice...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the Queen wanted to, she could veto Canadian legislation. Although, the first time she does this would be about 5 minutes before Canada and England both become republics, but it's still possible in theory.

      The argument would have been stronger when constitutional amendments still had to go through British parliament, but Trudeau fixed that.

    6. Re:Uh.... that's uh... nice...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's also the picture of a moose on our quarters. That *must* mean the moose have been oppressing us!!
      Fool.

  20. Book title by imnoteddy · · Score: 2, Informative

    To be pedantic, the title of Boole's book was "An Investigation of the Laws of Thought"

    --
    No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.
  21. "pre-digital computers"?? by classicvw · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Also that year, Grace Hopper, an admiral in the U.S. Navy, recorded the first computer "bug" -- a moth stuck between the relays of a pre-digital computer.)"

    Ahh, but relays are digital.... They are either on or off. That was binary the last I looked.

    1. Re:"pre-digital computers"?? by c13v3rm0nk3y · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not to mention that it is unlikely that Hopper ever claimed to find the first "bug".

      The comment next to the moth taped in the logbook seems to indicate that the word had been in use for some time, and Hopper was making a bit of a joke.

      --
      -- clvrmnky
    2. Re:"pre-digital computers"?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually in those days relays were mechanical. The state of the relay switch was digital.

    3. Re:"pre-digital computers"?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually ternary, not binary, most relays of that period (like many that followed) had a douple pole

  22. correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Parent post is completely wrong. The complete title is actually "An Investigation of the Laws of Thought, on which are founded the Mathematical Theories of Logic and Probabilities".

    1. Re:correction by imnoteddy · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Parent post is completely wrong. The complete title is actually "An Investigation of the Laws of Thought, on which are founded the Mathematical Theories of Logic and Probabilities".

      Parent post is not completely wrong - I got the first part of the title right. :-) And I blame Dover

      --
      No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.
  23. Shakespeare published first by oever · · Score: 4, Insightful
    To be or not to be!

    While that's a pretty clumsy way of saying, it, Shakespeare was ahead of Boole.

    I suggest we all add the following statement (or equivalent) to our code in honor of this great mind.

    typedef bool shakespear;

    --
    DNA is the ultimate spaghetti code.
    1. Re:Shakespeare published first by Fred+Foobar · · Score: 1

      #define QUESTION ((2B) || !(2B))

      --
      It was a really good paper.
    2. Re:Shakespeare published first by jayd42 · · Score: 1

      Examining the logic table to be NOT to be OR 1 0 1 0 1 1 Obviously the only answer is to kill yourself.

    3. Re:Shakespeare published first by jayd42 · · Score: 1

      The preview button is there for a reason. 1 OR 0 =1, 0 OR 1 =1 The only choice is to kill yourself.

    4. Re:Shakespeare published first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yo, in english that would be
      Const Shakespeare= True;

    5. Re:Shakespeare published first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, I think you're still confused. If we take "to be" as 1, then NOT "to be" is 0, and since 1 OR 0 = 1, "to be" OR NOT "to be" equals "to be", and therefore the answer is NOT to kill yourself.

    6. Re:Shakespeare published first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Or, in a real programming language -
      type shakespeare = To_be | Not_to_be
    7. Re:Shakespeare published first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's english? Looks more like some programming language to me.

    8. Re:Shakespeare published first by jayd42 · · Score: 1

      Except that "to be" can be either 1 or 0. If you assume "to be" is always 1, there is no question.

    9. Re:Shakespeare published first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clown.

      to be = 0
      not to be = 1

      same result

    10. Re:Shakespeare published first by jayd42 · · Score: 1

      Which is exactly my point. The answer to the question being asked, "Should I kill myself?" Is always 1, or true, or yes. While I thought my original post was somewhat whitty, you have completely destroyed that possibility by your inability to comprehend it. So consider your mission accomplished.

    11. Re:Shakespeare published first by Ann+Elk · · Score: 1

      Shakespeare was not using logic, he was using algebra. He was answering the question "what is the square root of 4*b^2?"

    12. Re:Shakespeare published first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nice try, but then question should be
      to be or minus to be

  24. Boole vs. Real World by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As wonderful as binary is, it falls utterly in capturing the fuzzy analog nature of life and the real world. Our recent debate on whether Sedna (or Pluto) is a planet is but one example of how the real world fails to fit into simple binary categories. Even at the subatomic level, the wave-particle duality gives lie to the fiction of discreteness.

    I'm not saying that binary is not great for doing all manner of wonderfully powerful proofs, logic, and computation. I'm only saying that it is a mere approximation to the real world and can thus fail when the real world is does not dichotomize to fit into Boole's logic.

    Boolean Logic illustrates both the tremendous power and weakness of mathematical systems. On the one hand the power of proof guarantees that man-made mathematical system with certain axioms will undeniably have certain properties. On the other hand, math gives one no guarantee that the real world obeys those axioms.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Boole vs. Real World by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 1

      Our recent debate on whether Sedna (or Pluto) is a planet is but one example of how the real world fails to fit into simple binary categories.

      True enough. But, maybe the real world fits into complex binary categories. For example, suppose I ask you to pick a real number between 0 and 1. Now, I want to guess the number you picked. I could ask is it one-third? The binary answer is yes or no. If no, then guess again. There are uncountably many such questions I could ask. A better way would be to ask if the number is greater than one-half. If so, is the number greater than three/fourths? Then, with a countable number of questions, you could deduce the number.

      Similarly, a question asking the color of something (which has finitely many answers) could be reformulated as a sequence of yes/no questions. For example, if the color is in 24-bit format, start with: Is the first bit a 1? and so on.

      After all, everything you do on a computer, from playing video games to chatting via Instant messaging, ultimately gets reduced to binary form.

    2. Re:Boole vs. Real World by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      but you'll take a long time answering the question of what is the decimal representation of 1/3 or the square root of two......

    3. Re:Boole vs. Real World by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 1

      Countably many questions. And, if we're talking about the REAL world, maybe not so many. Every instrument used to measure something has finite precision. Therefore, ask as many questions as it takes to get the required precision.

    4. Re:Boole vs. Real World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As wonderful as binary is, it falls utterly in capturing the fuzzy analog nature of life and the real world.

      You sound like a stupid philosopher wannabe with no mathematical background to speak of.

      Binary as it applies to digital computing doesn't "fall" at all. We can capture anything observable we want with a digital representation and the error is perfectly quantifiable.

      Whether or not the underpinnings of the universe on the quantum level are discrete or continuous (whatever that would even mean at that level) the world we live in and observe everyday with our own senses is totally discrete. Our brains, eyes, ears, and nerves are all discrete in and finite in their operation. For a fundamentally large class of applications, digital computers work fine, and their effectiveness can be evaluated analytically.

    5. Re:Boole vs. Real World by Marsala · · Score: 1

      As wonderful as binary is, it falls utterly in capturing the fuzzy analog nature of life and the real world.

      I wouldn't say "utterly"... using approximation and extrapolation to fill in the weak spots and get a "close enough" answer have been good enough to let the human race put a man on the moon, collect energy from doing naughty things with atoms, and create several series of fun to play WWII first person shooters (I'm most enthusiastic about that last one, but YMMV).

      I've read up on multivalent logic (mostly intro stuff by Dr. Kosko because I'm an ignorant knuckle dragger, but I think I got the gist). The thing most people seem to ignore about it is that this isn't a "black and white" issue... binary logic is still a subset of multivalent logic (it just occurs at the endpoints now) and still has a role to play in it.

      I'd like to see us move to using multivalent logic too as I think it'll be the key to solving some interesting problems in the CS world (AI, mainly)... but I don't think saying "Boolean suxx0rz" is the way to effect that change. :)

      I see bivalent logic as just the tip of the iceberg... it might not cover every case, but at least it's a good start in the right direction.

    6. Re:Boole vs. Real World by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      hah, if you consider aleph-null (the first of the transfinites) countable/a number! what about the analog fuel gauge of my car, how do we determine the exact reading of that?

    7. Re:Boole vs. Real World by Ben+Urban · · Score: 1

      The mere fact that you cannot exactly express 1/3 in a finite number of bits is enough to disprove what you said. I'm not even going to bother bringing up irrational numbers.

      FYI In binary, 1/3 is 0.0101010101010101...

      --
      Every time you run "emerge", a Microsoft drone dies.
    8. Re:Boole vs. Real World by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 1

      The mere fact that you cannot exactly express 1/3 in a finite number of bits is enough to disprove what you said.

      Nope. I suggest you look up the mathematical meaning of the word countable. The dyadic rationals are dense in the reals.

  25. I think most of us can by kaosrain · · Score: 1

    A bit can only contain one base-2 value (either a 0 or a 1). It is short for Binary Digit.

  26. No mention of Set Theory. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Set Theory is a Boolean Algebra. Odd there was no (explicit) mention of this. It is important to both mathematics in general, and Computer Science.

    Just as an aside, a mathematical structure is a Boolean Algebra if, and only if, if it contains two operations (generally denoted +, and *), such that for all elements A, B and C in the structure ...

    A + B = B + A
    A * B = B * A
    (A + B) + C = A + (B + C)
    (A * B) * C = A * (B * C)
    A + (B * C) = (A + B) * (A + C)
    A * (B + C) = (A * B) + (A * C)

    and there exists two elements 0 and 1 in the structure such that ..

    A + 0 = A
    A * A = A

    and for each A an element exists that's the "negation" of A ...

    A + ~A = 1
    A * ~A = 0

    In logic, + is equivilent to OR, * is equivilent to AND, a Tautology is equivilent to 1, and contradiction is equivilent to 0. ~ is NOT.

    Similar comparisons can be made in Set Theory. In the same order of above: Union, Inclusion, Universal Set, Empty Set, and Set Complement.

    So, if you prove one algebraic identity in Set Theory, you also proved the same exact identity in
    Propositional Logic (and vice versa.)

    (shrug)

    1. Re:No mention of Set Theory. by lkaos · · Score: 1

      Similar comparisons can be made in Set Theory. In the same order of above: Union, Inclusion, Universal Set, Empty Set, and Set Complement.

      Not all set theories have a universal set. Instead of having a universal set, you often define a domain of discourse. Therefore if D is your domain of discourse, you define:

      ~A = D - A

      However, it's important to note that D is not a "universal set".

      --
      int func(int a);
      func((b += 3, b));
    2. Re:No mention of Set Theory. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you prove one algebraic identity in Set Theory, you also proved the same exact identity in
      Propositional Logic (and vice versa.)


      Actually, while the parallelism between set theory/predicate calculus and propositional Logic is almost perfect, there are certain differences which prevent their complete identification.

      As an example, the principle of assertion (a = 1) = a is peculiar to propositional calculus, and is interpreted as follows: To state a proposition is to affirm the truth of that proposition. Clearly, this formula is not susceptible of a set-theoretical interpretation, for, if a is a set, (a = 1) is a proposition, and we would then have a logical equality between a set and a proposition, which is absurd.

      From this formula combined with the Law of non contradiction a * a' = (a = 1) * (a = 0) = 0 and the law of excluded middle a + a' = (a = 1) + (a = 0) = 1 we deduce the laws of bivalence (a = 1)' = (a = 0) and (a = 0)' = (a = 1). In fact, propositional calculus is equivalent to the calculus of sets when the sets can possess only the two values 0 (empty) and 1 (whole).

      The equivalence of an implication and a disjunction (a -> b) = (a' + b) is no less fundamental to propositional calculus, as it makes possible to reduce secundary, tertiary, etc. propositions to primary propositions, or even to sums of elementary propositions.

      In set theory, "disjunction elimination" (a + b = 1) -> (a = 1) + (b = 1) and "conjunction elimination" ab = 0 -> (a = 0) + (b = 0) are also invalid, for, from the statement that the set ab is empty, we can't conclude that one of the sets a and b is empty; and from the statement that the sum a + b is equal to the whole we cannot conclude that either is equal to the whole. But these implications are true in propositional logic.

      As a matter of fact, propositional calculus is a binary boolean algebra, i.e. it is equivalent to set theory when the set can possess only the two values 0 (empty set) and 1 (whole set).

    3. Re:No mention of Set Theory. by Stile+65 · · Score: 1

      Just a typo correction for you...

      and there exists two elements 0 and 1 in the structure such that ..

      A + 0 = A
      A * A = A

      The parent poster probably intended to type:

      A * 1 = A

      --
      I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
    4. Re:No mention of Set Theory. by Subm · · Score: 1

      The above set theory is western-Europe focused.

      In Set Theory Union

      A + ~A = 1

      In Soviet Union it's the other way around.

  27. AND before OR? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Does anybody know why AND's are usually evaluated before OR's? I find I need it the other way around more often, and end up having to use parethesis. No big deal, but it just seems like somebody made the wrong historical choice.

    1. Re:AND before OR? by josh3736 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Reading the article, you'll see that Boole assigned algebraic operators to logic operators.

      AND = x (multiply)
      OR = + (add)

      The order of operations states that we multiply before adding.

    2. Re:AND before OR? by Fred+Foobar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's probably the same reason multiplication has a higher precedence than addition. Multiplication and AND are equivalents, and addition and OR are equivalents.

      In fact, for most practical purposes, AND *is* multiplication and OR *is* addition. Just compare the truth tables with multiplication and addition tables (one minor technicality, of course, is that addition carries while OR does not; the carry bit is simply the result of A AND B).

      --
      It was a really good paper.
    3. Re:AND before OR? by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Intuitively, checking if the elements of a set are all true should have presedens over checking if one of them is true.

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    4. Re:AND before OR? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Reading the article, you'll see that Boole assigned algebraic operators to logic operators.

      Was this just to "borrow" existing operator symbols for another purpose, or is there some strong connection to numeric math?

    5. Re:AND before OR? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Distributivity. AND, or logical multiplication, takes precedence over OR, as it distributes over it.

    6. Re:AND before OR? by Ralp · · Score: 1

      The strong parallels to addition and multiplication become evident when you consider the following:
      A * 1 = A
      A * 0 = 0
      A + 0 = A
      The nice pattern breaks down a little with A+1=1, but that makes sense too (with respect to the arithmetic addition metaphor) if you keep in mind there's no such thing as 2. Oh look, an inadvertent Futurama quote!

    7. Re:AND before OR? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well AND IS multiplication.
      XOR IS addition modulo 2.

      If you can't figure out why, then I really can't help you.

    8. Re:AND before OR? by pknut · · Score: 1
      Distributive laws for Boolean logic and arithmetic:

      a OR (b AND c) = (a OR b) AND (a OR c)

      a + (b * c) = a + (b * c)

      a AND (b OR c) = (a AND b) OR (a AND c)

      a * (b + c) = (a * b) + (a * c)

      i.e. AND distributes over OR and vice versa. Multiplication always distributes over addition and not vice versa. Probably a few other fundamental differences too.

    9. Re:AND before OR? by lkaos · · Score: 1

      If talking about boolean logic, that's not necessarily the case.

      In logics, you usually start with a very simple syntax that forces parenthesis around all binary operators. You can then add syntactic shortcuts for a + b + c = ((a + b) + c).

      Introducing precendence has nothing to do with the logic itself.

      --
      int func(int a);
      func((b += 3, b));
  28. 50??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But Sir, you've completely forgotten the famous daguerrotype of a woman having sex with a pony, taken in 1841 by Mounsieur Daguerre's assistant and made famous by Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five! Not to mention all those pornographic pictures painted centuries before that.

  29. What does George Goble have to with slashdot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ?

  30. i did too by GillBates0 · · Score: 1

    weird!

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
  31. Boole vs binary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
    Binary != boolean algebra. There are a number of axioms (the number 5 sticks in my brain for some reason), such that any algebra that satisfies those axioms can be called a boolean algebra.

    One good boolean algebra is the logical algebra of probabilities. Every datum is a real between 0 and 1. x or y would be x + y - xy; x and y would be xy; not x would be 1 - x. (All of this is off the top of my head BTW). It's a perfectly valid boolean algebra.

    To say that boolean algebra is about "true" or "false" is absolute rubbish. It's largely because binary computers have become so popular that people think that way.

  32. Not a slashdotter by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    Boole was born in Lincoln, England, in 1815, the eldest son of a poor shoemaker who also had a passion for mathematics. He was a precocious child. His mother boasted that young George, 18 months, wandered out of the house and was found in the centre of town, spelling words for money.

    Spelling expert? He would have stood out as a slashdotter.

    1. Re:Not a slashdotter by sxtxixtxcxh · · Score: 2, Funny

      *not impressed* W-O-R-D-S where's MY slice of teh pi ? ;)

      --
      for a minute there, i lost myself...
  33. Spoiler by Feztaa · · Score: 2, Interesting

    h96566k.jpg

    Yes, I'm aware than an AC beat me to it, but he's at -1 right now, so I'm posting this because it's more visible.

    1. Re:Spoiler by stephanruby · · Score: 1
      h96566k.jpg Yes, I'm aware than an AC beat me to it, but he's at -1 right now, so I'm posting this because it's more visible.

      Tell us what picture you are posting next time. I thought you were following standard Slashdot procedures and posting an attractive picture of the nerdy female in question.

  34. 50 cal handgun? WTF?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    If I'm to believe the article, bears must be such a huge a threat to Americans that S&W just had to develop a gun like this?

    Would a "Kills people ever more dead" be a good marketing slogan?

    1. Re:50 cal handgun? WTF?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never been out of your downtown highrise apartment in New York City or Los Angeles, have you, sonny?

      I'm all for donating to a fund dedicated to allowing people like you to try killing a bear with a .22-, .357-, or .38-caliber handgun (your choice). The bear population is hungry at this time of year coming out of hibernation, I would expect.

      If you're facing down a bear, you carry at least a .45-caliber. And you definitely fire at least twice. At least read accounts of people who have had to kill bears before you take a position on the subject of large-caliber firearms. (I happen to know several hunters who would laugh long and hard at the suggestion that a .22 or .38 are large enough caliber weapons to kill a bear).

      And if you don't think bears are convincing enough, talk to someone who's had to face a wild boar. That's like firing bullets into a semi coming 60mph straight at you. (the guys that hunt them are a little nutty I think).

  35. How many grasshoppers and moths were dissected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..to build these computers? I love it when scientists make use of clever observations of their what already exists in nature and use the results to create better technology and ultimately better science. But what I can't approve of is killing innocent animals to achieve that end. And when they're not busy cutting them up, they're keeping them in captivity and depriving them of all worthwhile life they may have lived or could have lived, and for whose benefit? The animal's? No, ours, the humans'.

    Most people don't worry about it too much, because frankly, most people are hypocrites -- if they weren't, then they'd be vegetarians like me. We don't need to kill animals to eat, and we don't need to kill them to further the pursuits of science. Anything that could be accomplished by killing them can be accomplished by observing them in the wild. Let them live, wild and free.

  36. Call that a nitpick? by panurge · · Score: 2, Informative
    I believe she eventually became a rear admiral, not an admiral. Also, she was a reservist when she found the bug.

    She was also already a PhD when she was called up for active service in WW2, so the grandparent post is really highly inaccurate.

    Grace Hopper - the third programmer in the United States, and a fitting successor to Ada Lovelace.

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    1. Re:Call that a nitpick? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's a programmer? If you mean programming on actual hardware, then you can't count Ada Lovelace. If you mean programming on a mathematical model, then there were probably literally hundreds of programmers in the US before Grace Hopper, especially considering lambda calculus was invented by an American.

    2. Re:Call that a nitpick? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think he means the third american who was an 31337 H4X0R.

    3. Re:Call that a nitpick? by galt2112 · · Score: 1

      A rear admiral is an admiral (navy). Just like a 2nd lieutentant is still a lieutenant (army).

      I usta be in the navy.

  37. Null ruined it all by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Some complain that the intruduction of "null" into some systems (such as databases) ruins the simplicity of Boolean logic. It creates a "3-value logic" which can get messy to grok.

    I generally agree. I think nulls are perhaps fine for numeric calculations in some cases, such as the average if there are zero records, but not Booleans and not strings. But sometimes it is hard to limit it to one but not the other. It is a controversial topic nevertheless. Chris Date has written some white papers on how to get rid of null.

    1. Re:Null ruined it all by panurge · · Score: 1

      On the contrary, I find nulls extremely useful for both booleans and strings. With booleans, how do you express "don't know"? In the same way, with strings, it's useful to know whether data has yet been entered; the difference between "not yet asked" and "no comment".

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    2. Re:Null ruined it all by Tom7 · · Score: 1

      Getting rid of null is easy in programming languages; just add a polymorphic sum ("container," if you will) called "option", and then have your functions return an "list option" rather than a "list"--then anything of list type really has a list in it. Many functional languages do this very thing and it is superior in every way to null. (Except that some people aren't "used" to it.)

    3. Re:Null ruined it all by redJag · · Score: 1

      I don't really agree with this, simply because NULL can just be a boolean value. Either it is NULL, or it isn't. It does make things more complex. It is more complex if there's a difference between zero and NULL in the application; the data must reflect this difference.

    4. Re:Null ruined it all by kisielk · · Score: 1

      Some languages such as VHDL have even more logic values. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are 1, 0, X for undefined (If you assign two conflicting values to one signal, the state is undefined), U for unknown, there is also strong and weak, which are close to 1 and 0 respectively but not quite there... and there's a bunch of other ones I have never really used.

    5. Re:Null ruined it all by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      On the contrary, I find nulls extremely useful for both booleans and strings. With booleans, how do you express "don't know"?

      In that case it is not a Boolean, but a 3-value user-defined enumeration.

      In the same way, with strings, it's useful to know whether data has yet been entered; the difference between "not yet asked" and "no comment".

      Leave it blank. If you ask but get no answer, then put in something like "(no answer)". Many RDBMS confuse zero-length strings and nulls anyhow, which is double dumb IMO.

    6. Re:Null ruined it all by mAsterdam · · Score: 2, Interesting
      With booleans, how do you express "don't know"?

      Good question. Hugh Darwen may have some answers . When you do you express "don't know" as nulls, how do you, later on - when you get the null as a result in a query - get it's meaning out of:

      • not applicable
      • unknown
      • false
      ?
  38. Re:AND before OR? Does not pass code review here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If someone codes AND an OR in the same parenthesis level, it does not get past code review with me [nor if they do the same with add and multiply].

    Yes, there are rules, but if you bracket it all, you don't need to argue about what the rules are.

  39. The Real Bible Code? by spellraiser · · Score: 1

    Prof. MacHale also notes that subsequent to The Laws of Thought, Boole undertook to rewrite the Bible in his mathematical logic.

    I'm very curious about this ... how exactly would you go about representing text with mathematical logic? He must have needed to invent some ad-hoc method to do this, right?

    Anyone know anything about this?

    --
    I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
    1. Re:The Real Bible Code? by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Funny

      Boole undertook to rewrite the Bible in his mathematical logic.

      And 101101 sayeth unto 111000, "Don't partake of thy apple, for it is full of 110101001010". But sayeth 111000 back to 101101, "11111111 That! I am hungry!". Behold he biteth into thy apple, and suddenly God made him naked, and his "1" showed, and 101101 laughed because she thoughteth it was a decimal. But her "00" also showed, and 111000 laughed because he though they were two decimals.

    2. Re:The Real Bible Code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he was more inclined to use text combined with propositional logic to reproduce the logical structure of the sentences in the Bible - as an obsessive, he would have been well placed to accomplish this.

    3. Re:The Real Bible Code? by Matt+Apple · · Score: 1

      Probably something vaguely like this:

      if (sin > 0 && !salvation)
      hell(soul);
      else
      heaven(soul);

      void hell(aSoul& u)
      {
      int x = 0;
      while(x < x + 1)
      {
      torment(u);
      x++;
      }
      }

      etc.... you get the idea :-)

    4. Re:The Real Bible Code? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Except, unless our ints are of infinite length, there will be a case where x is greater than x+1...

    5. Re:The Real Bible Code? by Bleeding+Heart+Nymph · · Score: 0

      and unless you send the address of the souls to the heaven() and hell() functions, you'd only be passing them by value, assuming they're not pointers

      --
      ----------
      Maiden of the Seventh Sunrise
  40. Turing machine generalised, not binary. by panurge · · Score: 2, Informative
    The UTM is not binary. It reads marks on a tape, without any presumption of the format of those marks. In the same way, the Difference Engines were base 10 (that's base 9+1, for binarists, octalists and hexadecimalists) and some of the 40s work used base-10 designs.

    The importance of Boole's ideas, therefore, was that they provided a grand unifying framework for computer design.

    In fact Turing's ideas were more fertile for programming, and it's a pity that he lived in the UK after WW2 and was held back by the usual British official incompetence in technical and commercial matters. And Von Neumann- how important was he really for computer development? Not as important, I think, as Black, Eckert or Mauchly.

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    1. Re:Turing machine generalised, not binary. by Jagasian · · Score: 1

      von Neumann's computer architecture is still used today! Random access memory accessed by a CPU through a bus. That seems like a big deal to me!

      Also, just like you said, Turing machines don't require binary implementation, and therefore Boole's ideas played only a small part if any in Turing machines.

      The truth is far more sophisticated. Everything worth anything is the result of a continuum of research and researchers. However, my arguement is that von Neumann's contributions are the first to resemble modern computers. Boole on the other hand contributes as much as Peano or Hilbert or Aristotle, etc...

    2. Re:Turing machine generalised, not binary. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "held back"?

      That's a funny way to say that he was induced to commit suicide.

    3. Re:Turing machine generalised, not binary. by panurge · · Score: 1

      People I've talked to who knew Alan Turing seem to believe that he committed suicide because he could really make no progress in the UK, and his conviction meant he could not work in the US. If the villains of the story, like that **** Womersley and the d******ds in the Civil Service, had got out of the way and let the computer revolution happen, Turing would have been able to find a leading role, rather than having to take a minor role in an area which was, basically, sidelined.

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    4. Re:Turing machine generalised, not binary. by panurge · · Score: 1

      The "Von Neumann architecture" was in fact part of the original Manchester and Cambridge machines and would have been partof Ace. You are right about the continuum of ideas, but really calling it a Von Neumann architecture is about as accurate as calling it an A E Neuman architecture.

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  41. I always though ternary logic was interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, no, or indeterminate (0) value. The truth tables are a bit more complex than binary logic though. Balanced ternary notation is kind of fun, too.

  42. Soon! by Tom7 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I helped proofread this one recently at pgdp.net. It's in post-processing now, so it will be in Gutenberg soon!

  43. Atanasoff Missing by olafo · · Score: 5, Informative

    It appears this "Computer History" attempt overlooks John Vincent Atanasoff, credited by most reliable sources (Smithsonian, etc.) as developer of the first electronic digital computer" years before the ENIAC. In fact, the ENIAC was derived from Atanosoffs's ABC Computer at Iowa State after an ENIAC developer visited Atanasoff (stayed several days in Atanasoff's home), and "stole" his ideas and proposed a larger verssion as the ENIAC to the army. Atanosoff's ABC computer was the first to solve Schroedinger's equation represented by the solution of a 39x39 system of matrix equations. However, time caught up with the ENIAC visitor, and the notebook he kept when he visited Atanasoff was his undoing when the U.S. Court in Minneapolis overturned previous patent rulings for computer developments and ruled they were all derived from Atanasoff's ABC computer. Hopefully, this attempt at a computer museum will soon be updated to accurately reflect the original development of the electronic computer by Atanasoff at Iowa State in 1942.

  44. Sorry to break it to you... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but you are right. It's of no importance in the real world, except for (political) rhetorics, where it lets you claim things like "if you're not with us, you're against us" and so on.

  45. I'm guessing you were being funny by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    But since people are moding you as insightful:

    A simple pithy statement like "to be or not to be" is a long way for formalized digital logic. Boole's contrabution wasn't realising the idea of have two finite states, philsophers had that idea for a long time, and often over apply it in an attempt to prove arguments. What Boole did was to create a formalized and complete system for logic. Boolean operators can be used in a binary system to construct any more complecated operator. The basic Boolean operations, combeined with a memory ability, are all you need for a turning machine.

    It's one thing to be able to hint at a basic concept, it's quite another to be able to develop a complete system for it.

  46. It gets worse by fm6 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Plus they credit her with coining the term "bug". The squashed moth was a joke. "Bug" was slang for electronic glitches long before then.

  47. Re:Boole vs. Real World (real numbers real?) by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But, maybe the real world fits into complex binary categories. For example, suppose I ask you to pick a real number between 0 and 1

    Excellent point. But again, I'm not sure that the real world actually obeys the laws of real numbers either. Again, wave-particle duality makes a mess of mathematically notions of pure discrete and pure continuous. Some theories of physics suggest the existence of a quantum mechanical foam at dimensions of about 10^-33 meters. Perhaps the physical world is neither continuous (in the infinite-digit real number sense) nor discrete (in the exactly N-bits binary sense) Perhaps continuous real numbers are a good approximation, but whether real numbers are real (or just a very convenient mathematical construct) is debatable

    Similarly, a question asking the color of something (which has finitely many answers) could be reformulated as a sequence of yes/no questions. For example, if the color is in 24-bit format, start with: Is the first bit a 1? and so on.

    An interesting example. Yet real-world colors aren't 24-bit, although they can be approximated with a 24-bit color measuring systems. Its a crude approximation, unfortunately. I don't even know of a 24-bit system that has the color gamut of human vision, let alone one that properly measures the hyperspectral reflectance, transflectance, absorption, & flourescence properties of real-world materials. Yes, if you assume a 24-bit approximation, then binary yes/no questions suffice. My point is that one is forced to make a big (sometime right, sometime wrong) assumption in reducing the physical world to any N-bit approximation.

    After all, everything you do on a computer, from playing video games to chatting via Instant messaging, ultimately gets reduced to binary form.

    So very true.

    To me, the deeper issue is whether the real world obeys the mathematicaly axioms of an algebra, Boolean or otherwise. The real world is nonlinear and that throws a wrench in the axioms right there. I also wonder about the axiom of closure -- that interactions of physical quantities in physical systems have consequences outside the algebraic variables of the system.

    Again, I'm sure that algebras and real numbers or N-bit numbers are excellent approximations as long as we don't forget that they are only approxmations.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  48. Re:Boole vs. Real World (real numbers real?) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Color theory: you are confusing resolution and gamut. 24-bit color is enough that the human eye cannot distinguish between adjacent shades - subtract or add one to any of the red, green, or blue values that make up the pixel and you won't be able to tell the difference.

    However, the human eye CAN tell that the range of colors represented by a 24-bit RGB system (or equivalent-resolution CMYK system, for that matter) cannot reproduce all of the colors of the visible spectrum; hence, the gamut of RGB and CMYK systems is a subset of the gamut of visible light.

  49. No, Boole was a latecomer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ancient Greeks invented the computer over 2000 years ago.

  50. Re:Boole vs. Real World (real numbers real?) by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Again, I'm sure that algebras and real numbers or N-bit numbers are excellent approximations as long as we don't forget that they are only approxmations.

    I believe that approximations are the best we can do. I've been trained as a mathematician. But, I don't believe in the square root of 2 in any physical sense. Some may argue, well construct a square 1 unit on a side, then the diagonal is square root of two. I argue, is it possible to construct a physical square 1 unit to a side? Each side would have to have the same number of atoms in a regular array, otherwise, it's not a square. But even if you accomplish this magnificent feat, the atoms in the lattice are vibrating, so the length isn't constant in time. So, I don't even believe in 1 as a physically measurable number!

    Point being, what is our reference point? Color perception has the same problem. I saw an excellent program on PBS (maybe NOVA? it's been several years) on color vision. One experiment was to project a red (that is a fixed frequency of light) circle onto a black background. Then they repeated the experiment with a white background. And I'll be damned ... the red on white was a different color than the red on black! So, what is our reference point? Is a certain shade of red a fixed frequency of visible radiation? Or is it entirely perceptual?

    I say again, every measurement is an approximation. Ergo, choose N large enough that no one can practically tell the difference. Then the approximation becomes reality.

  51. NULL strings are self-limiting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SEGV limits further processing.

  52. It's not binary (or even boolean) logic that fails by Kjella · · Score: 1

    As wonderful as binary is, it falls utterly in capturing the fuzzy analog nature of life and the real world. Our recent debate on whether Sedna (or Pluto) is a planet is but one example of how the real world fails to fit into simple binary categories.

    Boolean logic can, through some very simple rows of "greater than/less than" questions describe the mass, radius, orbit and every other reasonable measurable quantity. It can also be used to measure subjective opinions - a set of "is an object bigger than/smaller than X a planet?" questions will measure a fuzzy feeling of "right".

    Logic can only deduce results from information already in the system, like how you can start with mathematical axioms and build algebra. How about this "A Sedna is a planet if over 50% say it is" AND "over 50% say it is" = "Sedna is a planet". But I had to put in the premises myself. Until we can agree on the premises, the logic is not at fault.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  53. Re:Boole vs. Real World (math == chainsaw) by G4from128k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I believe that approximations are the best we can do.
    ....
    So, I don't even believe in 1 as a physically measurable number!


    Cool, I can tell that you and I are on a similar wavelength. Whether that wavelenth is representable as a real number or as a 24-bit color is another matter. ;)

    I say again, every measurement is an approximation. Ergo, choose N large enough that no one can practically tell the difference. Then the approximation becomes reality.

    And I agree 100% that a large enough N creates a indistinguishably fine approximation with one important exception. If the physical system violates the axioms of the mathematical system used in measurement, then there will be physical states or dynamical behaviors that have no corresponding mathematical state or admissible mathematical transform. Thus, for example, there are physical and perceptual colors for which there are no 24-bit approximations (the gamut problem). Moreover, the inverse problem occurs too. A mathematical system can have states with no corresponding physical state (see the problem of illegal colors)

    The extent that the physical and mathematical systems lack a bijective (1-to-1) mapping of both states and admissible transforms is the extent that mathematical reasoning has short-comings. Math is great. As an engineer who has studied math extensively, I can vouch for the power of math to construct axiomatic systems that represent novel physical systems. I can also vouch for the weakness of math in misconstructing those axiomatic analogs of physical systems.

    Math is like a chainsaw -- very powerful at cutting into problems, but also very dangerous if one is not careful.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  54. It said LOGIC you twit, so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    let's not forget Godel, Church, Kleene, Frege, Russell...

  55. Haha. by gardyloo · · Score: 1

    Especially since it hides your comments and makes it hard.

    You're just flirting w/ the parent poster, aren't you?

  56. Giving Goerge Boole too much credit? by a.ameri · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well,Goerge Boole proposed the basic principles of Boolean Algebra in 1854 in his trearise "An investigation of the laws of thought on Which to Found the Mathematical Theories of Logic and Probablities". While admire Goerge Boole, and I certainly give hime credit for creating this branch of Algebra, it should be noted that Goerge Boole himself had nothing to do with computers or digital systems.In the middle of the 19th century, many mathematicians were working on something called "Principles of Logic". Their goal was to descibe the human thought, in pure mathematical format. They aimed to model the human logic, as a branch of science, and they wanted to formulate it and find the principles of human's way of thinking. If you have ever taken a Descrete Mathematic course, you certainly have seen nonsense statements that "If Today is Sunday" AND "if Betty is happy" THEN "The Sky is Red".

    This was what those mathematicians were aiming for. Goerge Boole also proposed a set of principles, which at the time no one thought had any practical use. This branc of mathematics was a purely theoric one. Mathematicians mostly abondend this subject after it was proven by experience that the human thought can not be formulated in to some mathematical notations.

    It wasn't untill in the 40s, when someone at the Bell Labs (forgot his name) suddenly found out that the Boolean Algebra can be used in digital systems, specifically in implementing digital circuits. Even the first computer built, the ENICA, used a decimal system, and didn't have anything to do with digital systems. It was only by an accident that it was found out that Boolean Algebra, which at the time was a completely useless and theoritic branch of math, found an application, and became a widely studied subject.

    What I am trying to say, is that Goerge Boole himself, by no means had any interest in digital systems, in programming, in computers, or in anything even remotely related to electronics. While as I said, I we should all give him immense credit for his work on Boolean Algebra, it should be noted that many people, contributed much more to the computer and electrical science, than Goerge Boole. Charles Babage and Lady Ada were actually writing computer programs in the 19th century; their only problem was that they had no computer at that time! And certainly, the father of today's computer architecture, is von Neuman.

    Give credit were credit is due, but over-crediting someone, like saying Goerge Boole invented the foundation of computers, is certainly not correct.

    --
    -- /* Those who don't underestand Unix, are condemned to reinvent it poorly */
    1. Re:Giving Goerge Boole too much credit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It wasn't untill in the 40s, when someone at the Bell Labs (forgot his name) suddenly found out that the Boolean Algebra can be used in digital systems, specifically in implementing digital circuits.

      It was Claude Shannon in 1938. (c.f. this article) "Possibly the most important master's thesis of the 20th century"

  57. Spelling english words for money... by the_twisted_pair · · Score: 1

    ...ywist a good conne ywhile ye can do't. Ask Chaucer.

  58. it dosen't looks like at first, but boole is great by protomala · · Score: 2, Interesting
    In the first semester of computer science last year, I had Boole's Algebra.
    I found it very interesting at first, but the final parts where really annoying. But the important thing is that after finishing the semester I started that even I've being a programer since 95 and having experience with turbo pascal, javascript, lambdaMOO, php, c, c++ and object pascal, I've just get better at programking because of boole!

    Boole is one of those things that looks simple and useless at first, but that is not the truth.

  59. I don't believe this... by RoloDMonkey · · Score: 2
    It was 150 years ago that George Boole published his literary classic The Laws of Thought, wherein he devised a mathematical language for dealing with mental machinations of logic. It was a symbolic language of thought -- an algebra of logic (algebra is the branch of mathematics that uses letters and other general symbols to represent numbers and quantities in formulas and equations).

    It's a sad day when the editors of Science feel they need to define what algebra is to their audience.

    --
    Long live the Speaker Bracelet
    Rolo D. Monkey
    1. Re:I don't believe this... by RaymondRuptime · · Score: 1

      Look again. It's not Science the prestigious magazine. It's the science section of The Globe and Mail newspaper--a publication with a somewhat broader audience.

  60. COLOSSUS missing too! by LeJoueur · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just to be a bit pedantic, according to Simon Singh's book "The Code Book", the first "computer" was the ENIGMA code breaker, the British Bletchley Park WWII invention , COLOSSUS (http://www.acsa.net/a_computer_saved_the_world.ht m). It never received as much publicity as the ENIAC because it was a war secret... Cheers

  61. Oh, yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We, mare lovers can't forget our roots and neglect the opposite sex. Human women having sex with stallions rule too!
    Grandparent post modded offtopic metamoderated unfair.

  62. Don't forget Shannon by Jim+McCoy · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you are going to list "those who made all this possible" you cannot ignore Claude Shannon. Creating information theory was important, but what is equally remarkable was his master's thesis: "Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits" (1941) was what proved that Boole's logic could be implemented in digital hardware.

    It was, by a long margin, the most important master's thesis in history.

  63. EDSAC missing, as well [Re: COLOSSUS missing too!] by j.leidner · · Score: 1
    The EDSAC shall not be forgotten in this list:

    "After the Second World War the director of the Computer Laboratory, M[aurice] V. Wilkes, headed what was perhaps the most influential of Britain's postwar computer projects the building of the EDSAC. Modelled on the American storedprogram concept that Wilkes had heard outlined at the Moore School lectures in August 1946, the EDSAC (Electronic Delay Storage Automatic Calculator) ran its first calculation in May 1949. The objective of the design team Wilkes, W. Renwick, S. Barton and G. Stevens on the hardware side; and D.J. Wheeler on the programming side was to provide a useful and reliable computing service. Such a service, the first in the world using a storedprogram computer, was available from early 1950. A significant feature of the Cambridge approach was the attention paid to userconvenience and programming; hence the group's book, The Preparation of Programmes for an Electronic Digital Calculator (1951), became the first textbook on programming a storedprogram computer, and was soon regarded as a classic."
    (Quote, hyperlinks added by JLL)

  64. Re:Boole vs. Real World (real numbers real?) by rabidcow · · Score: 1

    I believe that approximations are the best we can do.

    That depends. If you're dealing with a discrete value, you can measure it exactly. Continuous ones can sometimes be calculated exactly, but you can't actually measure them exactly. (Actually, I think the typical use of measurement involves mapping from some space, discrete or continuous, to a discrete one. Discrete space can map 1-to-1 to another discrete space (on a given interval), continuous space cannot.)

    This is a different concept from needing a reference point. The position of the mouse cursor on my screen in pixels is a discrete value, but I can choose from a number of reference points and get a different (yet exact) measurement each time. You can even choose different scales with discrete values and still measure exactly.

    Color perception has the same problem.

    Color is worse: it doesn't exist in the real world. What exists in the real world is wavelength, color is how our brain interprets our eyes' measurements. The effect you saw is because the brain uses the environment as a reference. This has nothing to do with the imprecision of measurements.

    With the definition above, you could say that the actual measurement happens not when the wavelength is translated into perception, but when the perception is translated into a name. I'm sure there's some wavelength between red and orange where you could get the same person, under the same lighting conditions, to say that it's red on one occasion but orange on another. That is where approximation comes in.

    Now let's see, numbers...

    I don't even believe in 1 as a physically measurable number!

    I can measure the number of people in this room exactly: 1.

    I don't believe in the square root of 2 in any physical sense.

    I'm having a bit of difficulty with the square root of 2... been too long since I took geometry. (and I'm trying to avoid a fixed reference point) Would the square root of 3 suffice?

    3 photons, each travelling in a direction perpendicular to the other two, intersect in a vacuum. As they continue on, they form the corners of an ever-growing equilateral triangle. Imagine a line from one photon to midway between the other two. This creates two triangles with sides in the ratio of 1:2:sqrt(3).

  65. Why Boole's work was signifigant by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 4, Informative

    IMHO, the discovery of a real-world application of the idempotent law that was Boole's greatest accomplishment. One could argue that Lebnitz and Boole had independently discovered this. This is not unlike Hamilton's discovery of an application for non-commutative algebra.

    Boole's contribution to logic was profound. First, a real world model for any mathematical property ensures the consistency of that model. Boole's work provided an abstraction for elementary set theory. The key to this abstraction is idempotency. The aggregate of set A and itself is the set A (i.e. A+A=A). Thus, Boolean algebra formalizes the basic set theoretic operations of union and intersection, which in turn is almost trivially isomorphic to a Boolean ring. I could create all kinds of stupid rules [insert your favorite slam on mathematics here] that have no meaning in the real world. Most importantly, Boole seemed to be the first to attempt to bridge the gap between abstract thought and mathematics. Admittedly there was some previous work in attempting to formalize|classify all syllogistic reasoning. It was the first step towards a unified theory of logic and ultimately what is hope to be a universal theory of symbolism (see Chomsky's mathematical linguistics).

    The irony about mathematics is that often the best ideas are childishly simple. It's not the proof of deep theorems (although that has it's place) that often has the greatest impact. It's the fresh applications of mathematical rigour to some real world scenario. Thus, mathematics is often at it's weakest when done in isolation. Incidentally, Knuth's work in algorithm analysis was revolutionary. In a world described by (K-Complexity (AIT)|cellular automata|simple computer programs) algorithm analysis and ultimately a proof of P not= NP may be to hold the key to the fundamental laws of nature (i.e. physics, biology, and chemistry).

    Incidentally, the Martin Davis' The Universal Computer is a great popular science book on this topic. A free copy of the introduction is here. This book manages to introduce the ideas of Turing (Turing-Post?) Machines and the Diagonal Method to the lay reader. The author is a respected logician and computer scientist who studied under Church and Post.

    --
    What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
  66. Re:I think you mean "legitimized" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Off topic and uninformed. Check out the ruins of Pompeii and tell me that porn didn't come out of the closet until Hugh Heffner.

  67. Lisp had all these features for decades! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lisp had all of the things talked about in the article since about the 1960s! That is because Lisp is an implementation of the LAMBDA calculus, which is a much more convenient model of computation that anything else that has been thought of until now. Sheesh, learn Lisp before you totally embarrass yourself by poasting about things that were well known half a century ago!

  68. *measurement* being the problem... by cagle_.25 · · Score: 1

    ...you won't be able to actually measure the lines. The problem is the usual Heisenberg problem: the photons don't "travel" in straight lines; rather, they have a wavefunction-given probability of being captured at a particular point, etc. So we can't track a trajectory for them.

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    Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
  69. Push the envelope! by cagle_.25 · · Score: 1

    Since you've been trained as a mathematician, then you probably don't believe in root-2 as a typical number, either; only as a "Dedikind cut" or as an "equivalence class of converging sets of rational numbers." :-)

    --
    Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
    1. Re:Push the envelope! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because the reals are defined in terms of, say, Cauchy sequences of rationals doesn't mean they aren't numbers. The rationals are formally defined as elements of Z x Z\{0} (with appropriately defined + and *,) but that doesn't make them numbers any less than the integers.

  70. Note the previous run! by k98sven · · Score: 1

    0800 - Arctan started
    1000 - Arctan stopped

    arctan(1.2700) = 0.9037847025 (actual value 0.9037846992)

    You've got to appreciate that.. 2 hours of work on a huge machine gave 5 decimals of precision. Today, any pocket calculator can do that in milliseconds!