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Java Evangelist Leaves Sun After MS Settlement
aeoo writes "The Register says that Rich Green, the vice president of developer platforms and the major public voice for Java is 'quitting Sun in disgust' due to the recent settlement between Sun and Microsoft. The article hints that there may be more to follow. On the other hand, there is an article at eWeek with a different slant, saying that Rich Green tendered his resignation prior to the settlement. What impact, if any, will this have on open sourcing Java? It looks like Sun is still considering it."
Having a billion plus dollars of cash infusion should be even more of a reason for Java to take up more Open Source Development and support this nicely flowering community of adept programmers, testers and beneficiaries. However, a sneaky Dogbert spy might infiltrate the contract Sun signed, causing Sun to breach contract if they support Open Source (Microsoft likely didn't do this but it would not surprise me at all if they did, because I've never known Bill Gates to part with any money without getting something in return). Time will indeed tell if this settlement spells doom for Sun's human capitol, although if I'm right about Dogbert, then it likely will result in some really rich seedling startups being formed in wake of Sun's slow demise.
Sun is scared to open-source Java because the "zealots" will end up turning it into LISP.
This could be a great thing for the open source community. Maybe we'll all get lucky and he'll join up with an open source 'java' project like Tomcat, JBoss or others.
Given the nature of Microsoft's initial intentions (not interoperability, but domination), I would understand his fury. He seems to be a man of his word and put his money where his mouth was - which you have to respect, whether you agreed with him or not, and is more than you can say about MSFT.
Sun became $un.
Can anybody explain to me how somebody quitting over Sun's decision to work with Microsoft actually brings Java closer to being open source? Sorry to burst a bubble, but on the face of it, Sun's getting further from considering that...
leave if I want to....leave if I want to. You would leave to if it happened to you.... da da da da da da da.
Odds are more likely he'll take a position with a salary commensurate with having bee a VP at Sun.
Timeline 2004-2007:
1. Sun will turn anti-Linux
2. IBM will offer to buy Java from Sun (Sun will refuse)
3. The next software war will involve Microsoft and IBM directly
4. IBM will win.
It takes one monopolist to beat another.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Okay.
..."
... Yes."
... Yeah."
..."
So what did he say as he was leaving?
GREEN: "What do you think this is about? Hmmm? MONEY?"
MCNEALY: "Well, um
JOY: "Actually, yes."
MCNEALY: "Well, okay, yeah, yes. I would have to, yeah
GREEN: "Oh, so THAT'S the way it is. So you've coldly abandoned the noble principles of SOFTWARE!?!?"
JOY: "Uhhh
MCNEALY: "The what?"
GREEN: "Well if all you people care about is 2 billion measly dollars, I'M LEAVING!!!"
JOY: "Okay."
MCNEALY: "Yeah, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
Claiming that Green had decided to leave Sun two months agao is not a direct contradiction to the claim that he left over the recently announced settlement with Microsoft. For all well know, the talks leading to that deal could have been going on for months, and Green certainly would have had inside access to how they were going.
However, a Sun spokesperson said Green actually tendered his resignation "long before last week. It was coincidental timing, not related timing."
You mean to say that there was no indication to a top internal person that the decision to accept a 2B payoff was being considered, until exactly when it happened? Almost certainly he agreed to wait until the decision was announced before he quit. The fact that he decided "long before" does not mean it was unrelated...
It might be mistaken as a description of Scheme's features.
--Bogus
I am not a great fan of Sun , but come on, it's their product and whether they choose to open source it or not, should be their decission. After all isn't that what choice is all about ?
If the only choice left is open source , then what choice is it ?
Besides , the java specs are wide open for the world to see and implement . So what's the problem , don't the companies of the likes of IBM, BEA , etc have developers who can code if not any better , atleat on par with sun's java developers ?
Now if by open sourcing , they mean, relinquish the control over Java Specs, then that's a totally different thing. And even to that I don't agree, Sun after all did put in a lot of time and efforts to make Java acceptable in the Corporate world.
Merits and Demerits of Java asides, no one can deny the fact that Java is being used for a lot of business software development. And Corporate world is always more welcoming to Products backed up be business oriented companies than a utopic concept. Don't forget that linux is gaining acceptance in the corporate world , mostly because of the efforts of IBM , rather than the collective RTFM attitude of most kernel developers.
For all those who want Java to be open sourced, or open speced (if there is such a word) , why not divert some of those efforts in creating a cross platform development language, and make it as acceptable in the corporate world as Java. Then the problem will automatically go away.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
McNealy finally grew up, and therefore Sun's corporate policy with respect to Microsoft finally grew up. They were fighting a losing battle against the software titan and Linux--and McNealy must have known this for a long time, because the deal recently struck with Microsoft had actually been in the works for a good long while. Corporate contacts were reportedly telling him to grow up, and it looks as if he has, if not in spirit, then at least in practice.
They are a power player and have no intention of fading away, and they have invested far too much in Java to let it fade away either. And regarding Java itself, there are great things that both Sun and Microsoft have done for it (from a purely objective standpoint of programming, this is very true, and if you can't see that, you're blinded by dogma). The agreement between Sun and Microsoft is specifically designed to facilitate interoperability, and of course this includes Java, and Java components and applications.
It may not be the direction some had originally envisioned, but prevalence (or heck, just survival, if you consider worst-case scenarios) in a different form is often a far better outcome than the death of the original due to obstinacy. If Mr. Green is so dedicated to an outmoded cause that he's willing to give up his employment at Sun, well, I'll give him points for principle but none for pragmatism.
I have no illusions that Sun is going to open-source one of its most prized, closely-guarded secrets. They are almost Microsoftian in the protection of certain code. Even Green himself said, "Neither IBM nor Sun knows if it's feasible to fulfill the [open source goal] and meet the constraints." That's not a full-fledged denial, but it definitely represents uncertainty, and Sun's pact with Microsoft has perhaps provided a more secure context in which they can continue to develop and market their proprietary products, now armed with a few new advantages.
The coolest voice ever.
If we want an open source Java, I think the right thing to pursue is Kaffe, gcj, and Gnu CLASSPATH. I would love it if Sun did open source Java and such an action may be the best way to ensure Java's long-term survival, but somehow I have a feeling that Scott and the Sun lawyers won't have the guts or the will to take the risks and do this.
--------
Create a WAP server
And yet when I suggested in a Slashdot story that the cosying-up might affect the direction of Java, I got three responses saying that it would most likely not have any effect at all and that I was foolish for saying so. I thought it would be fairly obvious that Micro$oft is going to start applying pressure to those affiliated with Java to step off.
Would be cool if it happened, but does not seem like it. This article actually indicates that Green played a role in brokering the deal -
... ...
In fact, the Santa Clara, Calif.-based company said Green played an essential role in Sun's negotiations with Microsoft to come to last week's 10-year, $1.6 billion deal.
Meanwhile, Sun would not disclose where Green was going, but said the company has held the position "for quite a while" for him. Said one source: "He didn't want to leave until the Microsoft deal was done."
And here is the blurb from the ZDNet article -
A Sun representative said Green was instrumental in brokering the company's legal settlement with Microsoft.
The first article also says that Green is planning on doing a startup. Therefore, whatever it was, Green would have definitely received significant amount of compensation for his role.
Which would mean that, him going renegade and helping start something Opensource based on Java would be quite unlikely. When big sums of money are involved, especially with companies like Microsoft, you can be assured that they would have taken due precautions precisely against this kind of thing - especially since he was supposed to testify against them.
On the other hand, he *might* just rally to make Java Opensource - which I believe, is more likely.
What could Sun achieve by proceeding with its 2002 lawsuit? McNealy had presented the fight in apocalyptic terms: Mankind vs Microsoft.
Sun staff must be wondering if the company, which defined itself by its opposition to Microsoft, has a reason to exist.
What does Sun stand for, now?
It's starting to sound like MS bought some Java. There's a lot of shady information about the deal between the companies, and that "undisclosed" amount of money Sun will be paying is awfully curious.
Sun is really dumb for doing this. They don't stand a chance of competing long-term with Linux/Windows & Intel/AMD. Their main asset is Java, not their hardware or operating system. If they've just given MS some control over their most valuable asset, then they may have just dug their own grave.
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
I call dibs.
Already faxed my resume to Sun's HR.
There were a lot of articles on various news sites saying that Sun and Microsoft had buried the hatchet, in order to concentrate on their common enemy: Linux.
I looked through the articles, but did not see any Sun quotes that were clearly hostile towards Linux. Although, that has been true all along, in public Sun always said Linux was a good thing, but in private Sun employees I know were not exactly Linux fans.
Were there any Sun statements made against Linux? Or were the journalists just connecting the dots?
Then, there are the Sun involvement in SCO issues. From the beginning, Sun has only touted their fully licensed Unix, they have not ever offered any support of the Linux position. Many people think they are one of the main parties behind the SCO lawsuit.
Well atleast there are still some good, old-fashioned, principled guys left in this desolate, dot-bombed, innovation deprived software landscape. I mean that's all that's going on in software for past 3-4 years - corporate restructuring i.e. the suits saving their own butts and their buddies' butts (consolidation and offshoring) and now Sun buries the hatchet. To me that seems so wasteful, of time, energy, resources, and good will.
$un has floundered one thing after another. Got onto Linux, dumped linux, then a wishy washy strategy, and then sided with SCO. What is $un trying to be - Golum?
When you consider the amount that Microsoft just used to pay off Sun, the EU fine is relatively small potatoes. Of course, they're already getting an ROI from the Sun pay-off.
Parent post taken verbatim from http://www.theregister.com/content/7/36777.html
He'll come back as Anders Hejlsberg II. Long live Object Pascal er uh, Delphi, er uh Java!
Delegates and C# for everyone!
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Sun is a Hardware vendor first and a Software vendor second.
That said, it makes little sense for Sun to loose the Marketing benefit of Sun Java (as it gains no money, it's value to Sun is in the feel-good name recognition it's provides).
Sun sells Linux hardware along with Solaris hardware. Sun StarOffice and OpenOffice is funded by Sun to perpetuate good faith and hardware sales.
From a corporate point of view, Java is a loosing deal that can't be safely dropped (without gaining a lot of bad faith) and open-sourcing it could save them money, but would inevitably force a loss of Java market share while the community ramps-up to start supporting extensions to the current Java architecture (especially now, as .NET is totally in the clear). Further, community - open-source Java implimentations already exist (GCJ), but don't have the support of Sun's native implimentation.*
So what for Sun to do? Same as ever. Keep expanding the product, but don't put too much into it (as it's a money seive).
--
* GCJ and even the 'blackdown' ports of Java having no support means little, (as supported free beer is more usefull than unsupported freedom when it comes to reality) - but their failure to gain market share can be taken as an indicator of the possible stagnantation of an OpenSource Java.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
11 loosing quarters, soon to be 12.. That's 3 years, all losses. You can't hemorrage cash and their stock price reflects this.
Chapter 11 coming to Bankruptcy Court near you.
-All your stock options are belong to us.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Java is being driven largely by other companies... IBM, BEA, Oracle and Borland...... I don't see that sun makes alot on Java. The real competitor to windows is and always will be linux not java. However IBM has known for a while that Java works quite well crossplatform. For years I've been able to develop on Windows and deploy on Solaris or Linux now. If you want you can run Windows boxes for servers instead. Please no crack pot replies about Applets. The vast majority of work with Java now is server side, and for all intents and purposes it is write once run anywhere as long as you have the same server on all you platforms. This something .Net cannot do, and probably never will since it's not in MS's interest to have .Net portable. I know about Mono, but they are way behind and MS and probably always will be.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Imagine this running Windows.
You can defy gravity... for a short time
He seems to be a man of his word and put his money where his mouth was -
What a marvelously simplistic view. Mr. Green was supporting an old, futile cause. Sun is not going to take over the desktop or server business. Java is not going to become the end-all be-all of enterprise software. Microsoft, Linux, and UNIX have all already done a fine job of that (or very close to it). It may be as simple as that Mr. Green actually believed all of McNealy's prior rhetoric ("network computer"? please) and had his airy ideology punched with a horse-needle when McNealy finally decided to engage in bit of corporate pragmatism.
which you have to respect, whether you agreed with him or not, and is more than you can say about MSFT.
You're telling me Microsoft doesn't put their money where their mouth is? Regarding Windows and the Xbox, for example, they've repeatedly said that they're here for the long haul and that they're not leaving. And you know what? I believe them. Because they have lots of money to put where their mouth is.
The coolest voice ever.
There is alot in the JVM that does not "belong" to Sun, so it isn't thiers to open source. Most of the imaging and type model comes from Adobe for instance... I am sure that there is other stuff that isn't "thiers" as well.
Uhm, Johnathan Schwartz got a promotion. It's mentioned in the second line of the first parargraph of the article you linked to. You know, right after it says he's being replaced in the first line...
Talk about RTFA...
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Perhaps he meant that he was going to loose his marketing on you - like loosing dogs on someone in your yard.
see, thr problem that a lot of us /.ers have is that we see sun and ms as adversaries because we have in the past. the business community and minds see a sun/ms alliance as smart and necessary. seeing as MS has a 86% profit margin (!) from windows and sun still is a unix company (thats where its money comes from), both of these companies have the same problem: linux. without them settling their differences and realizing they arent each others problems, they are trying to move forward positively.
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[insert funny
To ammend then I'll simply add that .NET will be pushed hard in the next months - now that the settlement is made - and now is not the time to stagnate Java by pushing it into OSS limbo for the year it would take for the community to be able to support it.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
It seems to me, instead of all this back room dancing, Microsoft should just follow their traditional plan if they want to destroy Linux. They seem intent on hiding their true contempt for this stable product and its threat to their core OS tree, so they work deals with companies like Sun and SCO to nick away at Linux and avoid any posture which might indicate Linux as a major contender.
It seems to me, if they were smart, Microsoft would do what they've always done. Come out with a MS-branded version of Unix that at first was open, and then progressively turn it into a bloated, un-compatible mess that only works with their products. They did this with DOS; they should just do the same thing with Linux. The way I figure, Microsoft Linux 2006 will run everything, then by the time Microsoft Linux 2008 comes out, it suddenly won't run Apache or Sendmail, etc.
If they ever get around to releasing it, XWT, recently renamed to Ibex, would be just that.
..uinless. perhaps.... remember the discussions when IBM sold off it's hard drive division to Hitachi? I remember thinking on it and postulating (on another forum) something along the lines of "I smell a rat, IBM wouldn't sell unless they had some new whizzbang storage method in their skunkworks". Well, a short time later they announced their brick storage and that other technique, dang forget the name now, but I was right. Now, this sun business the last coupla weeks is interesting to me, and is similar. Sun settling with microsoft and cross licensing *could be* Sun slipping it to MS and getting paid for it.. now WHATIF Sun got a new cross platform development tool/language under wraps that blows the doors off of java? That leaves MS with 1.6 billion in egg on their face, and they are free to keep develioping what might be in essence a quickly abandoned platform, along with trying to make .Net a still-viable option. MS would be sweating. They are sweating now in a lot of areas, that would be like giving them an extra wool blannky on a 90 degree day.
I am not saying this is fact, just a-wondering is all. On the surface, the settlement makes no (not much anyway) sense, so there needs to be a reason, and I just don't think Sun and MS turned into butt buddies overnight, too much long standing hard feelings and mistrust to overcome there. NO ONE trusts microsoft (anymore) to make a deal with them that will make them any money, at best, people make deals with microsoft just to mitigate their losses, ie, take the lesser of two evils when confronted with rock/hard place. Sun isn't stupid, I just can't help but think there's a single big clue that hasn't been made public yet.
The only reason I can think of to Sun to cozy up to MS is if they are scared out of their shorts that their hardware is going to go, too, and figure that the only way they can save it is to 100% give in to MS and become an almost full partnership, with them making the hardware and MS making the software that runs on it. A super Apple in other words.
maybe, don't know, the whole deal just seems fishy to me, and not worth the bantered about figures to either side. something else is up..
Two interesting tidbits:2 C00.asp
Sun was one of the few companies that bought a SCO license, and Scott McNealy darkly referred to Open Source as if they were pirates bent on destruction of Intellectual property here: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0%2C3959%2C1209873%
Second, one way to kill Linux as a viable desktop alternative would be to get rid of Star Office or at least make it seem like its support will be limited. Does Sun really care about desktops? Star Office on Linux is being used by many governments around the world as a bludgeon to beat up MS in contract negotiations (why would I pay $500/desktop and up for your software when I can use Star Office on Linux). Even when they don't intend to use Linux, it provides good leverage for getting massive discounts. If Sun can be convinced to get rid of Star Office, that very well could pay M$ back while seriously damaging Linux. I have used both Open Office and Star Office, and neither are MS killers, but Star Office is much more useful and polished.
Sun's sellout to Microsoft for $1.6 billion will look about the same as that great deal that the Indians got when they sold Manhattan. Microsoft is the only company that recognizes that the software is worth more than a few trinkets because it takes a lot of T-I-M-E to develop software and money cannot buy time. Most of Sun's software initiatives such as Java and Star Office (aka Open Office) will probably wither on the vine, now, for lack of nourishment, just as IBM let OS/2 wither after cutting a similar deal with Microsoft. It's amazing that Microsoft is able to buy off their competitors so cheaply...but then they have gotten a lot of experience doing it over the years.
Huh? What about RMI? What about JNI? Having to find work-arounds for that caused me a few sleepless weeks. I even used "delegate" as a variable in one piece of code that someone else later tried to build with J++ ...!
It's ancient history now, but check this: JavaWorld article.
Dude, the MSJ++ product gratuitously used the extensions. It didn't make it that obvious.
> Sun claimed such features could harm the portability of java. But extending a programming language is not a crime.
It's a breach of contract if you say you won't do it, then do it and stick the other guy's trademark on it. Which is what MS did. They called it "Java". It wasn't Java. Sun own that mark, and IMHO they did the Right Thing in defending what it stands for. And they won that one.
Of course, what was amusing at the time was that Netscape's VM was far less compliant than MS's. But that was because it was so bug-ridden - lots of comments floating around about "malice vs stupidity"... :-)
Go on. Add the JVM to your list of reasons to hate them! You won't be alone...
2 billion dollars over the next 10 years is not a big amount for a company like Sun. Undoubtedly they didnt sell out. I think it was a move that could not be averted. Sun is doing really badly and it simply cannot afford to spend money just to keep up the image of being a Microsoft hater. It has learnt its lesson from Big Blue. IBM forms alliances with whoever it can. Its operative word is profit. Sun was very profitable before the millenium and could afford to keep up the image of being able to take on Microsoft. Now, it just does not make economic sense to do stick to the image. They have simply decided to cut their losses and start focussing on making profits where ever they can find it. Its a time for Sun to lay low and really focus on how to turn the company around. They have done a lot of monkeying around with quick fix profit making schemes all of which have failed.
Moral of the story: when the shit hits the fan, everyone ducks.
Provably untrue. Read on.
First of all, I've never heard that AFC constituted a basis of the lawsuit (I may be wrong). And most importantly, Sun didn't just "dislike" the extensions; they were forbidden by a contract that MS signed. MS's JVM failed the compatibility test suite, which it is required by contract to do, else the product cannot legally be called "Java". The MS JVM was incompatible in at least the following ways:
Have a look here.
Not a crime, strictly speaking, because that would denote a violation of criminal law, but it was breach of contract, which is a violation of civil law. Microsoft signed a contract which said that they couldn't do this, and did it anyway, and for that they were duly punished by the court.
And you're blaming Sun! Incredible that Microsoft can thumb their noses at the law, and people go around blaming everyone but them.
The rationale for these requirements is to assure that Java is compatible across platforms, and MS's JVM would have surely have undermined Java as a cross-platform language. So I have to disagree with you, extending the language that way is not OK.
Based on how badly you've gotten the facts so far, I assume you're making up this assertion out of thin air. Sun could only decide any such thing if there are contractural obligations forbidding such extensions. As long as the compatibility test suite is passed, then the JVM implementation is usually OK; AFAIK, extensions beyond that are not forbidden.
They sure are, but they can't use the core language or API if they're not there or significantly altered, as was the case in the MS JVM.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
The apparent facts:
1. Sun decided not to open-source Java, at least for the time being.
2. Shortly later, Microsoft paid Sun 2 billion dollars to settle a bunch of old lawsuits that were languishing in court anyway, and the two companies teamed up, agreeing to cross-license patents and share research info, work on mutually beneficial plans and so forth.
3. Sun isn't crazy about Linux because it's better than Solaris. Microsoft isn't crazy about Linux because it's better than Windows. Linux is making strong advances against BOTH operating systems, thereby costing both Sun and Microsoft a LOT of money. And, yes, I know Sun has made some moves towards offering Linux on Sun equipment, but I suspect McNealy prefers Solaris despite this.
4. Microsoft and Sun have both helped SCO in various ways over the past two years, both for their own reasons I imagine.
SPECULATION:
1. If Sun decides that they'll make more money partnering with Microsoft and pushing Solaris, then they'll consider stabbing Linux in the back. As we all know, they could fairly easily stop supporting Java on Linux. They could make it Windows-only if they wanted. Or they could sell it to Microsoft once and for all. Consider what this would do to corporate takeup of Linux.
2. If Sun decides to partner with Microsoft temporarily until the Linux threat is dealt with, and then go rogue and try and push Solaris instead of Windows, that would be just as bad.
3. Remember all that patent cross-licensing and the agreement to share research with Microsoft? I'm guessing this is going to be used against Linux shortly. Massive licensing fees would put a big dent in "free" whether as in beer or freedom.
4. Everyone focusing on Java for the past few years has had the amusing effect of distracting large numbers of programmers from working on alternative programming systems that might have been better than Java. Linux is now in a Java rut. What happens if -- whoops! -- Sun pulls the Java rug right out from under us? That would be worth 2 billion to Microsoft, wouldn't it?
POSSIBLE APPROACHES FOR OPEN-SOURCE PROGRAMMERS:
1. Back to C++. It does everything except applets, anyway (and you can do all of THAT with Shockwave and Flash).
2. Python, Perl and PHP (pick your favorite).
3. Everybody, start working on GCJ and CLASSPATH! Somebody start a beer and coffee fund...
4. Let's all do something different.
Did I miss any?
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
copyright was meant to serve society by giving the copyright holder a limited monopoly on his work and therefore encouraging development of new works. As it is nowadays, copyright is used to perpetuate commercialisation of existing works while cutting in the rights of others to build deriative worksafter a reasonable time frame. The combination with patents leads to the exact opposite of its original intention.
that's why many people are seriously pissed.
while (!asleep()) sheep++