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Criticizing Sun's Java Desktop System
An anonymous reader writes "Uh-oh. PJ is not a happy camper. 'Sun has made its choice and opted for The Way Things Used To Be,' she declares in a Linux Viewpoint at LinuxWorld. 'It's a new world, and Sun is not in it,' she declares. Her gripe is with the Java Desktop System, which she argues is grossly cavalier with the GPL and doesn't properly acknowledge its roots. Her main objection: 'You really could get the CD and run it without every knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have.' Feisty read, as ever, from Groklaw's founder and editor. That Jonesian coinage 'GNU/Linuxy' is worth the read alone!"
GNU/Linuxy
Run for your lives. RMS is pissed
I've never understood why the Open Source community is so quick to praise Sun, and pretend like Java it's an Open/Free technology... it's not. Is it a good, elegant language? Yes. Is it Open? No. Downloadable source code does not make Open software-- the key is in the licensing. IBM gets Open Source a lot more than Sun does, but doesn't get nearly as much credit.
I totally agree with the notion that the Java Desktop (which IS basically a Linux distro) doesn't sufficiently acknowledge its Linux roots. I also think that their licensing of the Java Desktop is WAY too restrictive and closed to fit within the constraints imposed by the GNU-licensed technologies that are part of it. I just don't understand why people are surprised. Why would you expect them to do anything differently than they have in the past? They make pretty good stuff... but to pretend like they are an Open Source advocate is a mistake.
Of course, with that said, Sun has an army of lawyers... I'm sure they are not technically violating the GNU. They know better.
--- JRJ
jrjBlog
If they have no loyality to their own employees, what makes you think they will have any loyality to you?
'GNU/Linuxy'? That's so like uh huh yesterday like. *girly giggle* I mean like she's so not with it like *hair flick* She should get with the times and like stop it *bounce*
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Yes more and more 4-profit's seem to be using GNU work product without proper acknowledgements.
Perhaps sourceforge can pay the FBI to run a few raids for the GNU violators!!
Where the answers are
Please tell me where in the GPL does it state that you have to acknowledge its roots or pay its proper respects.
As long as it complies, it's fine. Why does everything have to bow down and act like the GPL is all holy?
This is another example how how un-free the GPL philosphy is, and why BSD licensing is the best way to go.
Most commercial distros would like to keep the source code secret or at least modifications and software that makes these distributions unique. This is not something specific to Sun's Linux distro. Just look at Lindows (uhm, Linspire). They prefer to have a marketshare and not just, "I'm using Linux from Sun" or "I'm using Linux from Lindows". They want people to say, "I'm using Java Desktop. And what is Linux again?"
she argues is grossly cavalier with the GPL and doesn't properly acknowledge its roots.
The GPL doesn't say "Thou shalt display in bright big banners the license of this software". Yeesh. Why not look for real license violations instead of bitching about this?
"'You really could get the CD and run it without every knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have.' "
Yeah, why should they know, does it really matter, no. Sun can put it in there if they want. People companies are using linux for what it's worth. Why do some think that if someone is using linux they must spread the virtures of it and be a sales person for it. Also not having mention fo GNU, or GPL doesn't change what it is. In the end it's the software that matters. If you base how good something is on the if it's GPL or not your pretty much out of it.
Does Intel need to show in their end product what brand chairs the engineers at intel sit in? Does GM need to put stickers all over there cars saying what brand steel was used for the fenders?
This is another case of OSS people saying, "I gave my stuff away for free... now it's not fair." To this I say, sorry kids. You gave it away for free. You're not entitled to money or acknowledgement of any kind. Sure, that's great if somebody gives you a pat on the head and says, "Now that's a good little coder. Go back to work and build me something good. I have to re-upholster my jet." But you're not entitled to it, and expecting as such is ridiculous. As long as Sun does what the "license" says, they don't have to acknowledge squat.
I always finds comments like this interesting. One of the GPL complaints regarding the original BSD license was the "advertising clause." A similar clause in GPL would prevent Sun from doing this.
The real issue seems to be - are people bound by the legal requirements of the GPL or by the moral requirements of giving due credit.
'You really could get the CD and run it without every knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have.'
I'm just too old for all of this misguided zealotry. Sun and Java are one of the (many) reasons Linux based systems are making such tremendous inroads into corporate-land.
And lest we all forget, winning corporates means winning mind-share. Winning mindshare means linux based systems become more of a de facto standad everywhere.
I quite understand why sun wish to leverage Java and Linux - it's a magic combination. I can't understand why the author of the article wishes to leverage this tired, old zealotry.
Sun has always been like this. They have no real interest in open source as an ideal, or Linux as anything other than a means of marketing leverage. And lets' be honest, they've openly said as much for quite some time. Sun is out to get what they can for Sun, and they've been quite up front about that.
Of course, that doesn't mean that they won't do good things for open source along the way - their commitment to the GNOME foundation, and open sourcing StarOffice are both major contributions. Both those contributions are offered, of course, in the interests of Sun. MS is never going to port Office to Solaris, and the huge development boost StarOffice has gained in open sourcing has been great for Sun. Likewise, CDE is, in this day and age, a steaming pile of shit. Something new was needed - and if you can get that by providing a little financial support and other assistance to a group of volunteers, well, you do it.
But in a sense this is how open source has to work. Closed source companies that have no interest in open source as a philosophy can still get big gains from contributing to open source - it allows them to develop large projects that they would struggle to fund as a purely internal project. Do you really think IBM, HP et al are providing all the Linux kernel code out of the goodness of their hearts and a belief in open source? Their providing it because it helps stretch the kernel into doing the things they need it to do for their interests. In the meantime, they get all the other kernel developments everyone else supplies for free, and can focus on their own issues.
So, back to the topic - Sun isn't providing a lot of information about what really runs the JDS. Well, they're trying to make it a "Sun" product rather than another Linux flavour. Realistically I don't see it will make much difference in the long run. If the JDS is successful people will learn about what it is pieced together from one way or another.
PJ does have a point though - a little more explicit recognition that this is Linux Powered GPL software probably wouldn't go astray. I suspect you'll find that convincing Sun of that is a very hard task indeed.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
"Just remember, ....RealPlayer's not open-source, but its availability certainly enhances the value of our Java Desktop System."
Um... yeah. In the same way installing Gator enhances the value of a Windows system.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
In any case, just like he did with XEmacs and everything else that uses his software in accordance to his license, I'm sure RMS will start calling it "GNU/Java Desktop" whenever he can.
If this woman wants to see some touchy-feely good akcnowledgements from a corporation she (and everyone else) is in for a big disappointment.
This is where the rubber meets the road, and you can't have it both ways. As long as your license is not being violated, suck it up or stop releasing software under it. It's that simple.
If so, then don't complain.
The GPL is about Free software and the "software freedoms" defined by the FSF. It is remarkably well-defined, even more well-defined than some closed-source EULAs. It doesn't say anything about advocacy or trademarks (yes, believe it or not, it doesn't say "GNU/Linux" ANYWHERE).
It doesn't say "in order to use this software you must share RMS' political beliefs" or "you must love and cherish Free software" or "you must go above and beyond the terms of the license even if it doesn't make any business sense" or "no profits allowed". It doesn't specify what point type the words "contains Free software" should be printed in, in fact it doesn't have any such requirement at all. Yes, I'm sure RMS would love it if you did all that, but he is wise enough not to put that in the legal text.
One of the great things about the GPL is that it doesn't require any of this stuff. You can ignore it UNLESS you are distributing copies. And once distributing copies, you have some pretty clear rules to follow. You can love the GPL without being a Free software fanatic.
I think it's a great world where you can buy software in a box with commercial support, yet still enjoy the basic rights of viewing the source and making copies for all your machines or friends. It seems to me that in such a world, companies wouldn't go out of their way to advertise the GNU/Linuxy-ness of it, would they?
Just follow the terms of the GPL. Beyond that, do whatever is in your own best interests.
It's good to know the roots of things, but why does the average user care about the GPL? The JDS was designed as competition against Microsoft to get corporations to switch from Windows.
Why would an employee care that they are using open source software?
Do you know the roots of your car? Who founded the company? If the answer is yes, you like cars and that's why you know it...same reason why you would know about the GPL. If the answer is no, then I make my point.
Alrighty, I'm going to sound like a SUN-basher but so be it. I've been admonished here before for voicing my opinions against the company's actions but I'll type away undeterred.
.COM era, MS was fussing with SE and ME, NT was their server, and all signs pointed to SUN being The One. Heck, even colleges were changing their C curriculum over to Java!
At one point in time, I believed that SUN was going to take over the server market and squeeze Microsoft out. Don't laugh, it was the
Somewhere along the line, Linux seems to have blindsided both of them. Now SUN wants to market a Linux because their customers ask for it. At the same time, they still have their Solaris. They do hardware, too! They also do an office suite replacement, and they're holding on to that same Java (probably their saving grace).
We were wondering what they were doing -- and how they're spreading themselves thin instead of trying to define who they are by focusing on something and doing it well.
Then they struck that deal with Microsoft and we're left wondering how this whole Linux thing will pan out. Time will tell, but I'm not expecting them to suddenly be all flowery happy about embracing Open Source.
But let me play devil's advocate.
I know a lot about computers, but over the years I have learned TONS by watching my parrents, neighbors, and sister (all MAJOR computer n00bs) interact with the things.
"I don't care if I can see the source, how can I get to Google?" That's the kind of thing that I'd hear from my parents (especially my dad). Bombarding people with information about how it's all free and it's LINUX and you can do all sorts of stuff like giving parts away that you can't with MS software and it's LINUX and blah blah blah and it's LINUX will get you nowhere. You'll just annoy the hell out of "Aunt Tillie" (to borrow a person). They want it to WORK. They don't want to be told it runs Linux constantly. They don't want to know the source is available. They could care less they could copy the bianary for the Gimp off their PC and give it to a friend because it's F/OSS.
Now, I can understand having the computer tell the user it's Linux. Maybe once (at install, or the first time a user uses their account) is fine. If the user is a power user, they will find that fact out and all the things they can do with it fast through looking on the internet, digging through help files, and poking around the file system. Letting them know that it's Linux when they go off the beaten path is fine. Let them know they have rights and such if you wish.
But please, DON'T BEAT THEM OVER THE HEAD WITH IT. I can tell you from expiriance the the VAST majority of users won't care. They just want their computer to work. They don't need to know all that stuff. Aunt Tillie doesn't want to know, my parents don't want to know. My neighbors don't want to know, and my little sister could care less (for now, she's getting better). The other side of the Linux desktop that we'll see soon (and are seeing now) is Corporate Linux Desktops.
And you know what? As a boss (assuming I'm one, I'm not), I could CARE LESS if my employees know they're running Linux. I don't care if they know it's all GPL. I want them to DO THEIR JOBS. If they ask "Can I take a copy of this home with me?" of the IT department, THEY can tell the user that stuff (and those questions do get asked in schools and businesses). The IT department will know it's Linux and all the benefits it holds.
In short: The techies will know, don't worry about them. The Aunt Tillies won't care, don't worry about them. The people in the middle should know, but just a notice here or there; don't assult them. For what I understand Sun to be aiming at (Corp. desktops and maybe low cost computers for the Aunt Tillies of the world) I think they're doing fine.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
You really could get the CD and run it without every knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it
... still waiting.
Sounds to me like Sun's actually on track to make Linux vaguely usable. Hiding all that crap is exactly what needs to happen if you want someone to actually *use* it.
I heard 10 years ago that Linux was going to take over the world "in a few years".
Please, it's good for what it is, but it isn't everything to everyone.
You zealots are worse than the Mac zealots, or (gasp!) even the OS/2 zealots.
So, let me get this straight..
-Xfree86 is evil because they have a license that forces distributors to acknowledge their work.
-Java Desktop is evil because they don't acknowledge the work they use.
*confused*
Sun = Saruman
Microsoft = Sauron
Someone should point out to Sun before they get into bed with Microsoft: "There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power"
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
Yes yes, I understand all about open source, fairness, and other GNU/Linuxy terms; and I understand that, in theory, I should immediately throw off my chains and start coding stuff gratis, because information wants to be free. However, in reality, Windows' proprietary desktop is still better than whatever Linux currently has to offer -- to speak nothing of OS X. So, I have a choice: become a martyr, and torture myself with GNU/Linux each day, in the name of the OSS ideology; or, forget the slogans and use the best tool for the job. My name is not "Ghandi", so I choose the second option.
I think a major reason why Linux is suffering on the desktop right now is that most OSS hackers expect people to choose the first option. Well, that's not going to happen. Most people are like me: selfish bastards who just want to get some work done, or play some game, or whatever. You can't win them over with just slogans.
>|<*:=
Anyone who thinks that Sun shouldn't have a right to exercise the same rights under the GPL as you or I or even SCO is WRONG. The whole point of the GPL is the openness of it. Unless Sun specifically abuses the GPL (as many claim SCO has), they can do what they like in regards to distribution. I say: More power to them!
As much as I respect RMS this is one area I do disagree with him. This whole branding business started with his insistence on Linux being called GNU/Linux. Honestly, who the hell cares WHAT it's called? RMS needs to have more faith in his own cause minus ego. Isn't the point more intellectual in that it's FREE?
It bothers me not in the least that 'X' company wants to add some proprietary stuff in. Huh. Look at KDE - wasn't THAT considered non-GPL for the longest time? Yes, GNOME ended up being created as a result, but then KDE was opened up as well.
Look, no matter what Sun, Microsoft, or anyone else does there is one simple fact: You Can't Fight FREE. You can modify it. You can re-brand it. You can put your own obfusications around things. But the simple fact remains that no one would even be considering Java Desktop in the first place were it not for MS's own proprietary (READ: non-free) OS. No matter what Sun does, the alternatives still exist.
If Sun's not careful, they'll end up being marginalized like MS - no worries there. If they do this right, they'll be able to have a branded, supported, standardized version of Linux that they can support and the customers will love (hopefully).
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
I'm just trying to figure out if Sun did anything wrong here. Yeah they don't give much credit to the Linux/GPL roots of what they are doing, but who cares? As long as they follow the letter of the GPL law, then if they want to be dicks about it, that's their choice. It's up to their customers to decide if that choice is a good one.
If Sun can create something that's valuable to customers, then good for them. I rather doubt that people who are forsaking Microsoft are going to want to get into another oppressive licensing scheme.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
PJ is not a programmer, lawyer, or analyst, she is a paralegal. I don't see why her comments are newsworthy to begin with. It seems PJ just looks for things to be high and mighty about sometimes. A lot of noob friendly distros attempt to hide the fact you're using linux. So what? Lindows renames a lot of programs to generic names; such as renaming Mozilla to "Web Browser" and things of that nature. How many people actually know their linksys router is a linux based product. Or that their DVR runs linux. Complaining about something like that becomes complaining just for the sake of being a zealot.
I sense a lot of bitter BSD developers thinking they've caught a Linux advocate in an instance of blatant hypocracy. HA-HA! We had that advertising clause, but you pushy GPL people kept nagging us over that clause until we finally gave in, but now you're bitching about the same thing!!!
THWACK!!!From the GPL, Section 1
Notice that the GPL requires you to display the license agreement, not the names of the developers. The GPL requires that you notify the users and developers who obtain a copy of this code that they have certain freedoms and certain obligations. If Sun is hiding the GPL they may be in violation of Section 1.
For those who are saying that anyone who licenses their work under the GPL and "gives it away" deserves to have their work distributed absent the appropriate copyright notice, grow up. The work is not "given away", it is licensed; placing a work in the public domain is "giving it away" since the author(s) retain no control whatsoever over the work. A rudimentary understanding of copyright law would clue you in. PJ may be a bit zealous in her attack on Sun, but in all likelihood she knows the GPL and copyright law a hell of a lot better than you (or I) do.
PJ's complaint: not about advertising, but about licensing. For those who still can't understand the difference, there are places where you can get help.
-jdm
A while back I interviewed some people at Sun for content related to reviews on JDS and Solaris 9 x86. During one conversation I made the mistake of referring to JDS as a "Linux distribution" and I was quickly corrected:
"Java Desktop System is not a Linux distribution, it is an Operating Environment."
I asked what the difference was, and the response was something I didn't quite understand -- a lot of talk about desktop philosophy and how Sun didn't really want people to think of JDS as having anything to do with the GNU project or Linux in general.
I have here a folder for JDS version 1. It was based on SuSE 8.1 and it didn't work on any of my modern test machines so I only used it once and decided not to review it because it didn't work all that well and I don't like doing negative bash-fest reviews. Nowhere on the folder or at any point during the installation or in the operating environment itself do you ever see the word "Linux."
And the license agreement governing the whole product is much like the one for Solaris except for the parts that are already under other licenses. No, JDS is not even close to being Free Software, but then again Red Hat EL is along the same lines. I don't see anyone making a bad guy out of them.
-Jemsome big examples being Java and Open Office.
Sun is also now among the largest Linux success stories,
selling a million new Linux installations to China,
and even more amazingly to consumers at Wal-Mart.
Does it matter if the CD says "GNU" or "Linux inside"
to the Chinese, or Wal-Martese, or end user?
Likely not. As long as Sun honors the GPL--
and Sun does seem to be honoring the GPL--
then how about looking at the positive side?
More Linux installations will lead to better
succes for all of us. I want to see easy installs,
good video drivers, plug-and-play printers, and more.
Sun's success will help us get this, so cheers to them.
That does it!
I'm going to take a break from writing Java software using Sun's JDK, and boot up OpenOffice, and I'm going to write a letter to Sun, saying they never contribute anything! I'm going to save the document via NFS to my department file server, and get everyone to send their own copy of it to Sun! I'm so mad, I have half a mind to shutdown my x86 machine that runs Solaris!
Those greedy bastards! They never give anything to the community! WE DESERVE FREE HAND-OUTS!
Personally, I think the notion of Sun's Java Desktop to be entirely underwhelming. Almost pointless in fact.
Actually, if it were a post on Slashdot, I'd moderate it redundant, if it weren't at -1 redundant already.
From what I've read at the Sun site, you get something based on SuSe with a hacked up Gnome front end and Java tied into as many things they could think of. Nothing reveloutionary... seems mainly to be an attempt to get StarOffice in front of people who might not otherwise even know it exists.... in fact, isn't this part of the walmart deal? So I guess that would explain it. Sun Java Desktop is for the walmart shopper and not the Linux/OSS initiate.
So in that light, it makes perfect sense to try to put the wizard behind the curtain and let the user deal with the smoke and mirrors, The average Walmart user will generally be too clueless to know what it really is other than that it's not windows.
When looked at in that perspective, it actually makes sense to hide the underpinnings as much as possible, lest the curious and ignorant do something catastrophic since the more advanced users would be able to figure it out anyway.
Personally, if you want a unix-like system with a great desktop UI and productivity/development software, go with Apple if you can afford it. Linux on the desktop is still a few years off, AFAIAC.
I didn't see the beef in most of the comments, but the one point that stood out to me was "You really could get the CD and run it without ever knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have."
This kinda disturbs me. In that, I agree with PJ's comment. They are packaging a lot of GPL stuff without letting people know they can take some of the stuff and use it with freedom to do so. That means they can lift the code if they want to and use it. The packaging is not violating anythign, but it IS deceptive, and sure doesn't help OSS much. The packaging makes it look like it's all their product and not just their packaging.
AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
Hey, Sun really does have the rings!. html
http://java.sun.com/features/1998/07/ring-project
The vastly overrated parent and numerous other comments on this story miss the point completely.
The gripe is not about lack of acknowledgment, it's about Sun claiming to be supporting the open source community, while simultaneously refusing to do anything for said community. They claim that because JDE uses FOSS, they are somehow contributing to FOSS. However, their obfuscation efforts kill that argument, since it does not even increase the popularity/visibility of FOSS, let alone contribute any code.
AEIOU: open-source anonymous internet currency
And now the Sun "Java" Desktop, which presumably comes with Java built in, but does that mean you can double-click on a .jar file and your app starts up? No. You have to write a shell script, or add an icon with a command like "java -classpath foo.jar ..." to get it to work.
Sun, what are you thinking?
Maybe expecting Sun to move from the world of big servers, where expecting users to write a shell script is perfectly acceptable, to the world of desktops, where users should be able to do everything just by clicking in an obvious place and without having to understand the difference between an ELF file and a JAR, is too much to ask.
An authentic Java desktop would be, in my opinion, one in which all the work gets done in Java. That means a Java office suite, a Java window manager, a Java file explorer. This is completely doable, and Java is a fantastic environment for doing those things (I know, you will flame me saying Java sucks, Java is slow, etc, sorry, that isn't true anymore). I would love to see such a desktop environment, and it would have fantastic security and portability advantages. A real Java-based OS is the only thing that has a real chance of competing with Linux, I believe (ok, I will get majorly flamed for that, but it's true).
I think that if Sun is serious about this, the way forward is:
Ok, that's enough ranting, sure to stir up many heated flames about how much Java sucks, and Scott hasn't called me anytime recently to ask for business advice, so I'll leave off here.
-------Create a WAP server
What people seem to keep missing about the GPL is that it isn't just "free" - that is a minor point of the GPL. The greater point is that it is "Free" - as in FREEDOM, for both the user and the creator to ensure that the work stays available for future generations, regardless of the hardware. Of great importance to this stance is the availability of GPL or GPL-compatible development toolsets, like gcc or perl. Sure, you can write and GPL VC++ source code - but what is the point when the compiler itself isn't Free? What happens when (not if, someday it will happen) Microsoft ceases to exist as a company? What happens if the assets (VC++, etc) are not transferred to a party who will continue to develop them? Where does that get you in regards to your GPL'd VC++ source code?
The fact is, you are hosed (or the future is hosed) - with the GPL and GPL'd tools, you can have solace in the fact that the source for all will survive.
This is the true point of the GPL...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
PJ purports that making things easy and fun will not distract people from open source.
I've observed that everytime there is a pain in the ass app( or a lacking app ) and an easy/fun one people will dump the pain in the ass app everytime.......even open source fans.
The good news is that SUN wouldn't know user friendly if it bit them on the ass.
Another company might highjack the open source thing by flooding the community with easier, better apps.......maybe......but it will not be SUN.
I say this as someone who has programmed in Java for the last 5 years and who has seen the level of front end quality SUN is in the habit of giving to people.
No offense to anyone.......that company just does not understand "easy" or "friendly".
Steve
They may not care about the GPL, but at least their up-to-date on their other licenses. :-)
Wouldn't surprise if down the road Sun buys SCO (remember they have a nice option to buy quite a bit of SCO already) for their "unix IP" with their newly found $2BB cash.
We already know that Sun wants to be and claims to be the #1 Linux Desktop Play
I think Sun's strategy (w/ help from MSFT,SCO) is to be the _only_ linux vendor.
You mean the way Linux doesn't acknowledge that it has primarily lifted the rc*.d startup methodology from Sun? Or the fact that before Linux came about, the vast majority of the Free Software Foundation's software (and lots of other free/OS Software) was primarily developed on SunOS and Solaris?
Come back when you have a real complaint.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
GrokLaw is PJ's blog, sometimes she does bloggy things. That's her perogative. She also happens to provide an awful lot of truly useful information and analysis on certain subjects, though, so Groklaw is still worth reading.
No, this shouldn't be newsworthy, but these days on Slashdot it would appear the editors consider anything that bashes Sun to be newsworthy. Even if it's a blog post.
Besides, it's interesting. This Java Desktop System is a huge deal. First off, Sun, one of the last few Big UNIX general vendors, is not only making movements toward Linux but actually selling Linux as a new product. This hints at a decent number of things about what the UNIX vs Linux battles of the next ten years are going to look like. Second off, this is an attempt to make a desktop distribution of Linux by a company with the funding and concentration to actually pull it off.. either of these two things makes JDS a crucially important development whether it succeeds or fails, but it's getting very little attention in either the "real world" or the open-source news. I think the whole JDS thing is underreported, honestly. This article might not be the best analysis of JDS out there, but it's something.
PJ does really seem to hate Sun though. I'm not sure why. I think it's probably because they gave a big donation to SCO's legal funds (pretty reasonable reason to hate them, actually).
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
...the GPL does not require distributors and integrators to staple the license to users' foreheads. Just a thought. Yea, it is kind of dishonest, and if they don't include all the original docs they should be punished and probably even banned from using GPL'd software for a while, seeing as Sun is basically just a burden on all of us: stale platform or just a rehash of what you can get anywhere else for free or less, and the easy-to-program-in-but-not-well-implemented Java.
I am feeling fat and sassy
Can someone explain the joke to me?
1) never use this sentence anywhere in the real world(tm), especially at parties.
2) the explanation: everything annoyes RMS nowadays. in case your business is to print numbers on rice bags and you use linux for that purpose, don't expect just a comment, expect an essay from RMS if one of your rice bags topples down.
beer as in "free beer"
One day sunw will say they have no linux strategy, the next day sunw comes out with their own linux distro. Sunw's support of scox leaves me with very negitive feeling towards this company, especially when it comes to linux.
Linux is a threat to sunw's bread-and-butter business. I absolutely do not trust sunw's commitment to linux.
So if Sun ever does "go SCO", they will have something to take to court.
No sig, sorry.
Betweening writing Emacs, GCC, GDB, Make, other apps, founding FSF, drafting the GPL, creating copyleft, and staring & sustaining the GNU project which gave us an operating system - he's earned my respect.
I'll keep reading his essays. thanks all the same.
I'm a fan, but what unites RMS with Bill Gates is a lack of compassion for an opposing viewpoint.
Even in church, I get a little shaky when people start trotting personal interpretations of Absolute Truth. Especially when it's me. You just gotta behave humbly about this stuff. I'm serious.
"You really could get the CD and run it without ever knowing it had anything GNU/Linuxy in it or that the GPL provides you with guaranteed freedoms that Sun would like you not to know you have."
So Fucking What?
Where in the beloved GPL does it say, "any use or inclusion of GNU software in any bundle must be accompanied by a thee piece band and six minutes of CGI fireworks on the end user's screen."
I had a lot more respect for the people behind groklaw before this. However, this rant is worthy of Stallman, or even (shudder) Eric Raymond.
What's her point? Sounds like a bunch of whining to me.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
You're right, of course. There's one thing, and to appreciate it, you have to imagine these two scenarios (albeit with a strong pro-Sun bias):
Scenario #1.
CTO: "Linux! I keep hearing about Linux, and how cheap it is. Our competitors across the street are claiming a 200% performance-per-dollar increase over these Unix workstations. Get me some of that!"
IT: "OK, it's looking really good and our vendors are supporting it. What distro do you want?"
CTO: "Huh? What do the vendors support?"
IT: "Well, most of 'em support some version of RedHat, but most of those versions aren't supported by RedHat anymore. This app. vendor promotes SuSE, but this other one uses the Debian packaging system."
CTO: "I...see. OK, what about stepping back and just replacing some of the desktop PCs for the basic users? Email, wordprocessing, and web browsing. Can we do that?"
IT: "Sure. KOffice or OpenOffice? For a browser, we can chose Mozilla's stable or current versions, or Firefox which is really mozilla; or we can go with Opera. Email will depend on if we need to plug into our Exchange servers."
CTO: "Well, this is starting to sound iffy. How long will it take before we can test it to see if it works?"
IT:" We should be able to get a proper pilot test within two months, if things go well. Five if they don't."
CTO: "Fuck that! We're staying AWAY from Linux, and next year we'll buy our poor competitors for $0.10 on the dollar!"
Now, Scenario #2. Sun's answer.
CTO: "Linux! I keep hearing about Linux, and how cheap it is. Our competitors across the street are claiming a 200% performance-per-dollar increase over these Unix workstations that YOU sold me! I'm gonna get me some of that, unless you can talk really fast."
Sun: "Not at all. We can replace your base desktop users (email, office suite, web browsing) with preconfigured Intel/AMD systems. All testing, development, patching, and integration is done by us. We'll provide a pilot by next Tuesday, provide phone support at no cost, and meet with you at the end of it. If you like the pilot, the software bundle including tested, packaged updates will run $100 per desk, less in quantity. We guarantee it will run with your Exchange servers without modification. Hardware contract will be wholescale replacement on a 48 hour turnaround basis."
CTO: "THIS is worth my money! Where do I sign?"
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
RealPlayer is closed-source, and available with JDS. Don't like it? Don't get it.
Ditto for StarOffice. You've got the Sun-sponsored OpenOffice.org (mainly staffed by Sun developers).
Where is anybody denying the GPL? The GPL expressly allows such an approach, indeed seems, if anything, quite in favour of it. Will you be bashing RMS next for selling tapes of Emacs?
He didn't say "don't add", he said "don't *just* add" - GNOME's internationalisation would be half what it currently is without Sun developers adding their contribution, let alone accessability, which seems to be driven almost entirely by people with @sun.com addresses.
He's stating Sun's view, not claiming that it's MS's view. Where does he say that MS view it that way? He's saying that, whether MS like it or not, Sun's agreement with MS can benefit JDS (seems pretty obvious, and fully in line with the letter and meaning of the GPL).
If you look at the relationship between Sun and MS, it's pretty clear how Sun view the Evil Empire. I don't think they've suddenly bought a pair of rose-tinted glasses.
If that was from RMS, it would be interpreted in the exactly oppsite way that JP interprets it. Granted, "either choice is a safe choice" is quite clearly untrue. Don't know what he'd just smoked at that point.
And isn't that what we really get from F/OSS? Would we all hate MS as much if .DOC was an open standard with closed source? .HTML is an open standard, so we can have Mozilla, Opera, even IE (when it chooses to implement standards).
Yes, there's a significant difference when it comes to certain points - I can incorporate your code into my own "larger" code, but in reality, open standards pretty much allow that already.
One major point of Free/Open Source software is that Sun can take Mozilla, GNOME, improve them, and feed them back to the community (who don't necessarily want *every* change Sun chose to make, but are desperate for the internationalisation and accessibility that Sun need to add to sell it to the standards their customers expect). The GPL means they can do it, and means they have to feed it back.
Are we getting offtopic here? Why do I need to remind PJ what the GPL says? Methinks PJ's got some FUD in her mind.
"'The . in .com' wants to destroy the internet". That's a fine quote. Where did you find it in the previous statements?
The only statement in this paragraph anyone with any knowledge
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
Next time, have your friend head to www.java.com for the JRE. java.sun.com is aimed at developers - it says so right at the top of the page. www.java.com is aimed at regular users. It doesn't say that, but there is a reassuring picture of a cow in some kind of tractor beam at the top of the page.
There comes a time in every friendship when you have to say, "I never liked you, get lost." --Bill McNeil
Sun: 35000 employees
Ximian: 70 employees
Sun: has done a couple of usability studies, and contributed StarOffice (then a lousy office suite) four years ago.
Ximian: mono, evolution, GNOME bounties, IRC discussions, Project Utopia, and countless patches to and bug reports to any and every GNOME project.
Same kind of situation applies to Red Hat, which Sun actually has the gall to insult.
Face it: Sun was a thorn in Microsoft's backside so it was kind of seen as a good guy. But now I see no reason for any self-respecting developer to like Sun. At least Microsoft has the honesty to declare a straightforward stance with respect to open-source software. Sun tries to treat the open-source community as some unsuspecting supplier of free goods.
If only Sun were more like Ximian....
And where do we have a statemtent that they do not? /. and elsewhere).
PJ claims there's nothing on the cover (I haven't seen it) and then dismisses the EULA (mentioning the GPL in the EULA would be irrelevant, as has been previously overdiscussed on
Every package states its license terms. I'm running JDS at the moment (sorry, /. don't seem to want me to use the PRE tag), and a full "rpm -qi" is apparently "junk"...
That advertises quite clearly that it's "License: GPL". Sun's changes are more to the GNOME side of things, though; no one package (they're all GPL, trust me) so we'll pick one:
That's LGPL. A GPL Gnome package? Okay then:
I'm sure Sun's lawyers would love an out-and-out accusation, as it would give them 5 minutes worth of entertainment.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
What worries me is the future problem for Linux that SUN may light up. SUN and Microsoft now share their IP portfolios and you can bet hefty amount that as Scwartz hinted, they will incorporate Micrrosoft technologies into JDS in order to be as interoperable as possible. This will probably include DRM, Windows Media, and much more. This added edge of being able to cooperate better than anyone with 90% of the world's x86 desktop computers might make SUN the king of desktop Linux. Other companies will realize that liek SUN, they need a real edge which cannot be easily destroyed and so they will follow SUN's lead and add many proprietary technologies to their distributions. Many of these proprietary extensions will become standard to many people and distributions that do not have them will either need to make up for it in a big way, specialize for a niche or die out. Linux will grow in marketshare, perhaps to about 15% in just a few short years, but the growth will really be just for Novell, SUN and IBM. The other distributions which remain free will only remain popular within the geek and hardcore userbase because these distributions will not have the money to license expensive technology from Microsoft and other companies in order to comepete on the same level. They will also not have the marketing or credibility to further their product. I'm worried because in the end it seems clear that Linux distros will be partly open for the core things but much of the rest will be closed. What do you guys think? BTW: I think SUN may be tredging legal waters by not mentioning that most of JDS is GPL. I also thinkt hat they are hurting the potential of Linux by detaching themselves from it. Linux will grow much faster if it is marketed than if each distro markets itself only. You have to establish that Linux is sexy before you establish that your Linux distribution is. If people will be ignorant enough to follow these leads and actually think that JDS and SUSE are totally separate operating systems, there will be a lot of confusion and much more bashing than necessary. It is critical that it be established that Linux is the paltform that JDS, SUSE, Mandrake, Lindows, Xandros etc. is built upon and that this platform is one and the same. Market Linux before your product. As in car commercials, make cars themselves important and sexy, your brand is pretty much irrelevant in that way. People will think, cars are cool, I should get one, hmm... Also,
As the live cd boots, for a brief, and I do mean brief less than 1 second flash on an almost non-existant command prompt as the graphical environment takes over the words GNU/Linux flash on the screen if you look for it closely. Took me three boots to even notice it! Next there is a draconian EULA that appears to have been written, if I didn't know better, with great help from Microsoft as restrictive as it is. It even explicitly forbids copying the eval live cd to share with others. This is the first Linux live distro I have EVER seen with such a restriction. Perhaps the ability to write such draconian EULAs was a portion of the "technologies" that Sun is cross licensing from Micro$oft?
In the EULA there is absolutely NO mention of the GPL in any way shape or form other than a pointer to a directory in which you can find some "various other licenses" that may apply to certain portions of the software provided on the CD. It takes some real searching to find a copy of the GPL on that disk. I am sure that Sun's (M$'s?) lawyers have made sure that they complied to the strict letter of compliance with the GPL but they have not even come close to compliance with the spirit!
I am thoroughly disgusted with the lengths to which Sun has gone to obliterate and hide the true roots of their "Java Desktop System".
The Matrix is real... but I'm only visiting!
RIP Sun Microsystems. Killed by GNU/Linux and Microsoft, of all combinations....
To be fair, PJ isn't really a geek. She's that rarest of creatures: a non-geek who gets it. So even though she may not wear black and big boots (or she may; I have no idea), we adopt her as one of our own.
And I will hug him and pet him and I will call him "George".
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Stallman is undoubtedly one of the most influential programmers ever, but his righteous attitude can be amusing. It's always funny to make fun of "the old man" behind his back.
I hope he doesn't change though; his stubborness is an important counterforce that keeps commercial software in check.
I was present at a JDS show here in europe. And I had a chat with some of their sales representatives.
:
Their sales guy are in a real channel conflict, they can't chat on their new JDS without at least saying once solaris ! They see JDS as a short term answer, before having their customer "upgrading" their JDS on Linux to a JDS on solaris. That's the strategy ! That's why they do not market the words GNU, Linux or GPL.
The other issue is the Java brand ! The slide show (staroffice on jds hopefully !) represents layers of software. from bottom to top, you have
hardware : either sparc, intel, or amd
os : either solaris or linux
a full length layer : java
a full length layer : gnome
But in the show room, nearly everybody knew that the demo of JDS has nearly nothing to do with Java ! just a little demo of their java player ( which is ugly ). Once again they "über market" the java brand ! Java has nearly disappeared from the internet as an applet technology ! Even if java has a hudge market share in the enterprise, I know several case, where the IT department face big problems, due to unmanaged deploiement of complex J2EE applications (usines à gaz in french) (I'm not flaming java here, the problem is "unmanaged" not java) . So the Java brand is not that good, and the good reference with respect to the Java brand are shifting from Sun to IBM. For instance, nearly every business developing stuff in Java are now using eclipse. The sales guy of Sun are still marketing NetBeans, I had to give him the reference of Eclipse.
Finally, my experience with respect to this roadshow and the chat with sales rep, is that they are frightened. JDS is a kind of cloud of smoke that tries to hide businesses migrating their oracle on solaris to oracle on a redhat cluster.
The term "open source" never changed meaning: it didn't exist prior to the open source movement.
I was using the phrase "open source" in the early 90s to describe changes in the software world. I remember having a conversation with a client around 1991 who wanted me to modify a program. I explained that while many early programs written in interpreted languages (BASIC, DBase3+) were open source, most current programs were closed source, and the effort to modify them was enormous and probably illegal. I did not use the term "open source" until the contrast with "closed source" programs was needed.
I used "open source" around 1996 to describe HTML and JavaScript. Someone wanted me to hide the code for their web site, and I told them that was impossible because all the code on the web had to be open source so browsers could see it.
The new definition of "Open Source" is from the 1998, and describes a political movement that wants programs to be open source.
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"free software" could be used without paying for it. The next level was "shareware" with its free trial, but please pay. Then "commercial" with pay now and hope you like it.
"Free Software" is a political movement that wants programs to be open source, and somehow prevent commercial programmers from using any of the code in closed source programs.
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I do not understand the controversy about Java. Sun owns the trademark. They allow others who fit their standards to use the trademark. IBM wrote their own compiler, and there are others.
Applets and applications are usually easily decompiled; they are not truly open source, but the well-defined interpreted language makes it difficult to hide code. Servlets are not distributed, so it is more difficult to read the code. Code from most Java programs will easily fit into other projects, so sharing is easy. I like that I can use the same code in a browser, on a web server, and on a desktop just by changing the interface.
The Sun Java implementation is not open source, nor is the Java platform in any way an open standard.
Anyone can write software using Java without paying for any software. Anyone can write a Java compiler, and can get it approved for some money or tons of public relations. So Java is a free standard. But Sun controls it, so it is not an open standard.
Will there be an "Open Standards" organization that wants all standards to be open soon? Or is that implied by the "Open Source" movement?
I spend my life entertaining my brain.
Sun seems to be playing a bit fast and loose with the GPL. When Lindows/Linspire did similiar things a year or so ago, people called them on it. Now PJ is doing the same.
Sure, SUN does some nice things for FOSS. I am grateful for OOo. They have done some despicable things as well, like paying SCO, but there are other things too. Now SUN has gotten paid off by MS. Let's see here, the last couple of times a FOSS friendly company got a bail out from MS, they dropped FOSS like a hot potatoe. Remember Corel Linux (Now Xandros and Linspire)? Remember Corel WP for Linux? Remember AOL and Netscape/Mozilla? AOL dropped Netscape and cut loose Mozilla. See a pattern? I predict in a years time that OOo will be spun off and Star Office will be swept under the carpet. Within five years SUN will be in the same position as SCO was at the beginning of 2003. We'll see if they try the same Lawsuit craziness.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life