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NASA Needs Prize Contest Ideas

Michael Huang writes "If you like the idea of tech contests--think ANSARI X PRIZE and DARPA Grand Challenge--and you also like space, then NASA wants you. It needs ideas (and rules) for the Centennial Challenges, prize contests with $20 million funding in 2005. Current ideas (download Excel spreadsheet) include: Mars and asteroid microspacecraft missions, lunar robotic landing, robotic triathalon, rover survivor, Antarctic rover traverse and extreme environment computer. Wikipedia has good coverage."

180 comments

  1. I'm currently working on microspacecraft by phats+garage · · Score: 4, Funny

    I live in an area with lots of tall pines. My plan is to make the worlds biggest slingshot. So far I'm a bit short of orbital velocity, so I might apply for some money to get better rubber bands.

    1. Re:I'm currently working on microspacecraft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me know how it goes I have a microspacecraft that I'm building that needs launching, it uses a microwave uplink to receive pictures of American and British warcriminals and then zaps them with a high powered laser if it sees them as it scans Iraq in realtime, I call it the Orbital Nuremburg.

  2. What about... by SavedLinuXgeeK · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Artificial Intelligence. I mean robots, space missions, even just regular things are all cool, but Artificial intelligence would enhance them all. It would allow for more unmanned space flights, and lessen the amount of direct attention necessary for some given projects. Not to say that we are to rely on AI solely, but that it can be a great aide in what NASA is trying to do, and it would help other realms of science as well.

    --
    je suis parce que j'aime
    1. Re:What about... by smatt-man · · Score: 3, Funny

      What are you doing Dave?

      --

      ---
      Lousy rotten karmic retribution.
    2. Re:What about... by cedmond · · Score: 1

      Or how about AI that can figure out if the misson controllers know the difference between metric units and the US system of measurements so it doesn't get flown into a planet.

      --
      ----------------------------------
      I'd rather not take sides until I hear the monkey's version - PHB
    3. Re:What about... by sketerpot · · Score: 1

      You should look at some of the robotics projects. For example, there is one contest (I think DARPA is sponsoring it) which IIRC requires robots to find their way through a course at high speed---autonomously. There's AI right there, although it isn't quite yet of the "not opening the pod bay doors" caliber.

  3. Intelligent life in the universe by theAmazing10.t · · Score: 3, Funny
    How about proving there is intelligent life in the universe?

    They could start by trying to prove there is some on the third planet from that G3 star near the edge of the Milky Way galaxy.

    1. Re:Intelligent life in the universe by XMyth · · Score: 3, Funny

      After extensive searching, we've come to the conclusion that while there is an abundance of life on that planet, I wouldn't classify any of it as intelligent.

    2. Re:Intelligent life in the universe by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      It's a bit early to reach conclusions, isn't it? The screensaver project is still going.

    3. Re:Intelligent life in the universe by cmacb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You mean by including their schedule on the NASA web page as a web page rather than a downloadable Excel file?

    4. Re:Intelligent life in the universe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      "Sometimes I think the surest sign, that intelligent life exists else where in our universe is, that none of it has tried to contact us" - Calvin

    5. Re:Intelligent life in the universe by albeit+unknown · · Score: 1

      But it's far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm

  4. Lander Fear Factor! by Himring · · Score: 4, Funny

    Current ideas (download Excel spreadsheet) include: Mars and asteroid microspacecraft missions, lunar robotic landing, robotic triathalon, rover survivor, Antarctic rover traverse and extreme environment computer.

    And Lander Fear Factor! The rover has to drink a wicked puree of something a rover would find revolting....

    --
    "All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
    1. Re:Lander Fear Factor! by Fearless+Freep · · Score: 1

      Milk?

    2. Re:Lander Fear Factor! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...or how about robot wars on the moon (little bit of latency-2 seconds?). Hey, people like these shows...

  5. AI not ready yet by The_reformant · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Part of the problem about using AI is that it is kind of an umbrella term which covers everything from expert systems, neural nets, adaptive computing, machine vision. Also AI techniques aren't always the best way to approach large engineering type tasks like space missions. While getting neural nets to perform intelligent behavious is helping our understanding what intelligence is and how it works most of these technologies just aren't ready for prime time yet

    --
    I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
  6. The prize that NASA really needs by xeeno · · Score: 3, Insightful

    how about a prize to the group that clears out all of the dead fodder and restructures them?

    1. Re:The prize that NASA really needs by linzeal · · Score: 2, Funny
      Does that include any tree sitting hippies? If so can you please come to Freshwater, California and clear ours out? Thank you.

    2. Re:The prize that NASA really needs by UrgleHoth · · Score: 1

      Like Richard Benjamin in Quark?

      --

      Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
  7. Begging for money by NonSequor · · Score: 4, Funny

    How about a contest to find the best method of begging congress for money? It pays for itself!

    --
    My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
  8. TV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    1. Start "Rover Survivor"
    2. Sell the show to some TV channel.
    3. Pay out Prize Money with the money from the TV-deal.
    4. ?
    5. Break Even!

  9. Sustenance studies. by torpor · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Lets see NASA put all that human medicine/nutrition knowledge to use, and set up a "Survivor" program in ... say ... Mozambique ... that uses bare-bones scientific evaluation of bio-mass consumption to prolong human survival as long as possible.

    Another idea is ocean habitats. It seems very strange to me that we haven't 'prototyped' long-term human sustenance studies by building an "International Ocean Station" somewhere in the Marianas trench or something ... Perhaps we have, perhaps its not useful, but it sure would be interesting to see all the details about human sustenance that an underwater, sealed 'biosphere X' kind of project could provide...

    IF we've gotta live for 6 months on de-hydrated/hydroponic foods, lets do it in that other hostile environment we have yet to fully explore, provided by our Oceans, or Deserts, where ordinary 'normal' humans are also struggling to survive...

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    1. Re:Sustenance studies. by SavedLinuXgeeK · · Score: 1, Funny

      Promise me whatever happens, you won't let Pauly Shore into the biosphere... The results could be dire

      --
      je suis parce que j'aime
    2. Re:Sustenance studies. by kippy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Another idea is ocean habitats. It seems very strange to me that we haven't 'prototyped' long-term human sustenance studies by building an "International Ocean Station" somewhere in the Marianas trench or something ... Perhaps we have, perhaps its not useful, but it sure would be interesting to see all the details about human sustenance that an underwater, sealed 'biosphere X' kind of project could provide...

      The Navy has been using submarines with nuclear power sources and life support systems for decades.

    3. Re:Sustenance studies. by torpor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Navy has been using submarines with nuclear power sources and life support systems for decades.

      Yeah. That is true. But are they growing their own food?

      The Navy isn't self-sustaining. U-boots still need a supply convoy and system if they wanna stay out there ... ain't no room for grow rooms in those torpedo bays, aaiiighht!

      yo. just imagine your grow room scenario on a trident-class submarine ... ;)

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    4. Re:Sustenance studies. by andalay · · Score: 1

      Holy shit 458!

    5. Re:Sustenance studies. by kippy · · Score: 1

      Yeah. That is true. But are they growing their own food?

      They could if they wanted to. It's just that submarines are war machines. If for some reason they wanted to retrofit all the weapon systems with greenhouses and UV lamps, I'm confident that they could stay submerged for years.

      really though, submarines and a mars colony are apples and oranges. I'm just making a point that a self sustaining martian colony is totally possible as long as you have an energy source, local resources and a little smarts.

    6. Re:Sustenance studies. by torpor · · Score: 1

      really though, submarines and a mars colony are apples and oranges.

      I dunno that I'd say there's an orange in that bunch. Actually, I'd say that submarines and a human-sustaining lander of some variety, are pretty much Apples and Apples. The dangers of ocean life to the human body are of equitable orders of magnitude as those same dangers posed by space, as a result of the human body being so darned frail to begin with.

      Same fruit, different kind. I think we could continue submarine development {hey, a peaceful use for war weapons, wouldn't that be nice...} and further refine those systems, and end up with pretty good spacecraft.

      I bet there's already a fair bit of grafting from the Space and Oceanic Human Sciences realms, anyway, already at NASA ...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    7. Re:Sustenance studies. by Orne · · Score: 1

      Decent study ideas, but is undersea exploration and nutrition studies really the function of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration?

      Perhaps the other branches of government, such as the U.S. Food & Drug Administration and the National Oeanic and Atmospheric Administration should start X Prizes of their own?

    8. Re:Sustenance studies. by torpor · · Score: 1

      I see no reason why NASA shouldn't be funding programs to take other technologies, from other branches of the government science programs, and continue to refine them by adopting them to space (and thus making them better for us here on Earth).

      the point is to use Space to 'catalyze' better Earth technology...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  10. Gumball? by amichalo · · Score: 1

    How about a Gumball Rally?

    I can see it now: "Now accepting applications for the Gumball Inerplanetary Rally - fewer cops, more space junk"

    --
    I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
    1. Re:Gumball? by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      --Wouldn't that be...

      ...wait for it...

      Spaceballs??

      [rimshot]

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
  11. First Manned Mars Landing Wins by datastalker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Here's what I would do if I were to design a space contest: I would establish a contest so that the first person to collaborate with Dr. Robert Zubrin and get a human to Mars within 5 years would not only be rich beyond the dreams of avarice, but would become the most famous person on the planet. I would also sell ads like crazy, since that would get the funding needed - corporations would love to sponsor the first human Mars landing. It might be a tad tacky or crass, but it would get the job done. And then we would have a human on Mars within three years. ;)

    1. Re:First Manned Mars Landing Wins by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      I would rather stay poor, unknown, and healthy than become the first man on Mars, rich, famous and permanently crippled.

    2. Re:First Manned Mars Landing Wins by greenegg77 · · Score: 1

      I'm glad he didn't say we had to
      a) Get them there alive, and
      b) get them back.

      I've got a couple of candidates I'd like to propose for the trip...

      --
      --- This .sig for sale - $500 OBO.
    3. Re:First Manned Mars Landing Wins by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

      I would volunteer for a one way trip. Just let me bring my iPod and Powerbook, and make sure I have enough to live the rest of my life there.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    4. Re:First Manned Mars Landing Wins by 3)+profit!!! · · Score: 1

      But what Zubrin wants is a permanent settlement, not just a human on Mars. There's a difference.

    5. Re:First Manned Mars Landing Wins by 2short · · Score: 1


      I think Mars is setting the bar too high when no private entity has yet taken the prize for a mere sub-orbital flight. I'd go for the moon.

      I also think the whole point is letting private industry figure out the best way to get the job done, whatever that may be; and I'm not convinced "manned" is necessarily the way to go.

      So the "job" is "go there, do stuff, come back", and we want to offer prize money for the first person to do it. But this involves all sorts of rules/definitions about what you've got to do, judges, arguments about exactly what counts and whether the rules need to be or can be ammended, etc. (witness the DARPA Grand Challenge), all of which bugs me. We should keep it simple.

      So here's my proposal:
      Figure out an amount of prize money that would reasonably motivate people to mount a moon mission. Then, avoid all restrictive definitions of the task, arguments, etc. To do this, take the prize money, and convert it into gold bullion. Stick the gold in a rocket, and crash the thing into the Moon. If you can get the gold, it's yours.

  12. Zip Zap + Model Rocket by tbase · · Score: 1, Funny

    You're welcome.

    --

    666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
  13. The ultimate prize... by orbit0r · · Score: 5, Interesting

    uh, How about saving me a seat on the next mission?

    It might seem a bit far-fetched, but seriously, if I designed something for NASA that might really advance humanity, a space-flight isn't too out of the question, is it?

    1. Re:The ultimate prize... by the+real+darkskye · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just remember to call shotgun when presenting your designs.

      I'll be here for 90 minutes then my weekend starts, try the shrimp.

      --
      Music is everybody's possession.
      It's only publishers who think that people own it.
      Fuck Beta
      ~John Lenno
    2. Re:The ultimate prize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      doesnt NASA have physical standards for its astronauts? this prize wouldnt be able to motivate people not between 5'10" and 6'3", or whatever the standards are...still...i would love the idea of an 'open shotgun' contest on the shuttle. What is the shuttle's "shotgun constitution" like, anyway? :-)

    3. Re:The ultimate prize... by Scott+Hale · · Score: 1
      What is the shuttle's "shotgun constitution" like, anyway? :-)

      The pilot rides shotgun. You'll have to take a seat in the back.

  14. Space Rally by axis_omega · · Score: 1

    How about a space rally between earth and the moon?(something easy) You could use any type of space craft. You would need to take pictures of celestial reference on the way, land a flag on the moon, and come back, then crash on earth...

    Oh and it could go ummaned if you don't want to bring some food along.
    The other challenge would be to go and pick up the flag...

    --
    It's funny how I make sense to others and not myself...
    1. Re:Space Rally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How's NASA going to verify you've been to the moon? They've never been to the moon.

  15. Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by VernonNemitz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The suits from the Apollo era are rotting away in museums, in spite of efforts to preserve them. I sometimes wonder just how long those suits on the International Space Station will be usable, because they NEED to be usable when an emergency happens. Next, the 1960s-era suits were also quite cumbersome to put on and work in. Fixing those two things will be essential if we want a long-term human presence in space.

    1. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by torpor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      yeah, this is quite interesting, actually ... i always wonder what it'd be like if we -only- built space suits ... and how far that could really go if we put more energy into it.

      imagine an 'environment' suit you can put on which is good enough to act as the primary housing for the entire trip through to orbit. a suit so good, you put it on, then 'latch on' to a rocket booster, and its all you need to get you to the docking port of ISS2, or whatever ...

      how much 'lighter' could our space transport systems be if we put absolutely 1000% more into human-sustaining suits, i wonder ...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    2. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by david.given · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Modern spacesuits are pretty dire; they're a bad compromise between a full constant-pressure hardsuit and a zero-volume skinsuit. This means that they tend to blow up when they're pressurised, which means they resist movement. This makes them very hard work to actually move around in. They're also very complicated.

      Constant-pressure hardsuits would be one alternative, but as they require complex joints for all the limbs you won't be exactly agile in one.

      A more interesting alternative is the skinsuit. This consists of a very close-fitting elastic body stocking that provides pressure on the skin to protect you from vacuum, while not actually containing any air. (The only hollow part is the rigid helmet.) These would --- probably --- be much more comfortable, restricting motion much less, probably be more reliable, certainly simpler to construct, etc. Although they might be rather hard to put on.

      Unfortunately, I can't find any references to skinsuits, although I gather they've been tried in prototype --- can anyone confirm this?

    3. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by VernonNemitz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes skinsuits have been studied and prototyped. Jerry Pournelle wrote about them years ago in his "A Step Farther Out" column.

    4. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by invid · · Score: 1

      I knew it was a bad idea for them to make spacesuits out of meat.

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    5. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The problem with a skinsuit is that it will do absolutely nothing in the case of being struck by space debris. In order to overcome this particular issue you're going to have to put armor on it, and then you come back to the point where you might as well be wearing a hardsuit.

      What I think makes the most sense is a skinsuit worn under a hardsuit. This way, you're protected from impacts, but if your suit should get holed you're still protected. Seal the helmet away from the rest of the suit, of course, so that if your chestplate gets holed you can still breathe.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative
      Unfortunately, I can't find any references to skinsuits, although I gather they've been tried in prototype --- can anyone confirm this?
      You can't find any references because the largely don't exist other than as a sci-fi staple. They have numerous significant problems, and no clear paths to solving them. (Go to Google Groups and search for 'skinsuit' or 'skinsuits' in the sci.space.* groups. They are a perennial topic of discussion there.)
    7. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by VernonNemitz · · Score: 1

      Actually, considering the many thousands of KPH of impact speed, almost anything that actually hits you in space is going to do serious damage to you, hardsuit or not. However, a very loose lightweight aluminum-foil outer layer (like a rain poncho) will have an interesting effect; small space debris (like paint flakes or micrometeoroids) that impact against this "poncho" will be vaporized, making a tiny hole in it -- and the skinsuit will very likely protect you adequately from the spray of fast-moving gas. The loose space between poncho and skinsuit gives the gas room to expand, see?

    8. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by shystershep · · Score: 1

      Hmm -- I see two potential problems with a "suit-only" space transport system:

      (1) massive wedgie on lift off
      (2) re-entry/splashdown -- if you're not fried to a crisp, you'd better hope you land on something soft.

      --
      The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
    9. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It does sound like a good idea though I think it might prove to be too fragile and/or bulky. The hardsuit should be layers of composites and possibly some sort of non-solid stuff, a liquid or a gel perhaps. Now that you mention it, putting a pressurized gas behind that might be a nice way to make it more reactive. If you could make it seal the hardsuit in the bargain it would be really amazingly slick. Using composites keeps the total mass to a minimum while still giving you a rigid shell. If someone swung a hammer, missed, and sent it your way, you might be really glad you had a hard suit. You're probably quite right that it's not enough, though.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Practical Long Lasting Space Suit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You can't find any references because the largely don't exist other than as a sci-fi staple. They have numerous significant problems, and no clear paths to solving them. (Go to Google Groups and search for 'skinsuit' or 'skinsuits' in the sci.space.* groups. They are a perennial topic of discussion there.)

      I just checked some of the discussions on Google and the major failing of skinsuits seems to be that nobody's using them therefore they won't work and don't bother trying.

  16. Three little words... by Jonny+Royale · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Webcams in Space! Live webcam pics (or streams) of the Earth from orbit, maybe one on the Moon (pointed at the earth?). Someday, even one from Mars? I know they have pics from the mars rovers, but what about a continuous raw feed?

    1. Re:Three little words... by torpor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      duh. that is so 50's-era.

      So weird. "Satellite Cameras" are the reason you can buy a cheap CCD at Fry's for $15, right next to the snap-dried ice cream ...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    2. Re:Three little words... by vaccum+pony · · Score: 1

      I would love to have video (failing being there myself of course) of launch-to-orbit and orbit-to-ground of some vehicle.

    3. Re:Three little words... by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 1

      An asteroid-cam would be cool. If we could find an asteroid that's orbiting between the Earth and Sun on a medium period orbit (6 months/year), land a probe on it, and allow it to photograph the visual field while it journeys around the Sun. After it has completed the mission, it transmits/launches itself from the asteroid. We get to see if the Earth real does have a twin on the other side of the Sun :)

  17. I got one... by mattgreen · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why not a contest to see who can devise the best space-related contest, complete with rules. I think it would be positively groundbreaking!

  18. Pr0n & p0t by SunPin · · Score: 1
    NASA needs money. This is the way to do it:


    Porn, pot are keys to NASA salvation

    --
    Laws are for people with no friends.
  19. Idea: Create cheap spacecraft by RecycledElectrons · · Score: 4, Interesting

    All the really cool stuff happens once we leave orbit, right? (Deimos, Asteroids, Europa, etc.) Because there is already a prize for getting to orbit, so now we need to develop cheap spacecraft that can go that next step. I suggest that NASA allow experimenters to develop different spacecraft components. Categoires include: 1. Electrical Generation Systems 2. Navigation 3. Main Engine 4. Ways to "see" objects (sensors?) 5. Ways to gather volatiles frozen on something. 6. Ways to tow something. NASA takes the entries, tests them on the ground, and then takes the first 10 workable entires in each category to LEO, where they test them in space. NASA promises to take the winner from each category, and scale them to build a ship, which will be used to visit some piece of rock floating somewhere. NASA pays the prize as "royalties" to the winner. Andy

  20. They want a contest? by rampant+mac · · Score: 1, Funny

    Come over to my house and identify what's growing on the bottom of my tub.

    --
    I like big butts and I cannot lie.
  21. AI is not ready indeed: with online demo. by ControlFreal · · Score: 4, Informative

    Parent: +6 Insightful

    I'm a researcher in AI, and I can do nothing but backup the parent's claim (sad as it is). When we use AI, we would expect a robot to be able to perceive its surroundings (analyzing sensory inputs), make decisions (reasoning) and act (generating actuator outputs).

    I can only comment on the first, since I'm a Ph.D. student in Computer Vision. And the general picture is, to be quite honest, depressing. Forget all you've seen in e.g. Terminator (e.g. the robot analyzing its visual input, and all the nice text in the image): it ain't gonna happen for a long time! Although space missions are (presumably) less complex in terms of sensory inputs, the state of affairs in dealing with normal natural images gives a nice idea of what's currently (im)possible:

    I'll provide an example here. I'm doing Computer Vision (face-detections), and the current state of affairs is about this: When finding faces in 800x600 images, this can be done in about 1 second (yes: 1 full second), at about a 90% detection rate and a couple of false detections per image. For more complex object classes that are not so nicely symmetric (think cars, houses, landscapes, etc.), the performance is dramatically worse.

    You can look at the BitTorrent link. And ONLY if that doesn't work, use this. As for reasoning: this is still in it's infancy, but I'm not working in that field, so I cannot comment on that well. Any takers? ;)

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    Support a Europe-related section on Slashdot!
    1. Re:AI is not ready indeed: with online demo. by FleaPlus · · Score: 3

      As another person who has done research with AI and computer vision, I agree with you somewhat. We're nowhere near having an autonomous system with capabilities anywhere close to what a human, or even a very small insect, can perform.

      However, AIs in space only have to perform very specific tasks. These sorts of tasks are things which AIs are already capable of, or could be made capable of with a little more effort. Here's what I could think of off-hand:

      space navigation: This is the sort of thing an AI excels at. I think it's actually already been used on Deep Space 1.

      surface exploration: If humans on the ground can periodically give high-level goals and destinations, the rest can be handled by a reactive or behavior-based system. After Sojourner's primary and secondary missions were over, it was switched over to a behavior-based control system (developed by Rodney Brooks' lab, I think), and autonomously wandered around the surface.

      space construction: This hasn't really been done yet, although many vision problems can be alleviated by the fact that you have complete control over the materials used. Special parts can be given special colors, and one might be able to assume that all prior pieces have been accurately placed by a robot.

      By the way, nice face detection work.

    2. Re:AI is not ready indeed: with online demo. by Hays · · Score: 1

      Bah! more details. I watched your face detection video and read the blurb on your web page, do you have a paper or tech report on it? I've seen another video from a research group here that looks almost identical to this one, kind of amusing.

      I've seen real time demos of Viola-Jones cascades that work reasonably well. And training time isn't so ridiculous if you cut out the adaboost feature selection. Your idea to pre-process input images (segment them) into interesting and non interesting regions seems reasonable. But if you're worried about video, I'd put temporal search constraints in first. Which you might already have but you didn't post a paper :)

    3. Re:AI is not ready indeed: with online demo. by ControlFreal · · Score: 1
      Bah! more details.

      Working on that; I'll let you know.

      But if you're worried about video, I'd put temporal search constraints in first.

      Very true. However, my work doesn't focus on video; it focusses on still images, in which of course you don't have a temporal context. A nice side-effect of using the context-proprocessing is that I could do photos at a couple of frames per second, which enables a real-time demo.But like I said, performance is likely worse that in those systems using temporal context.

      Most real-time applications of the Viola and Jones classifier use a shortcut: in fact the OpenCV code first downsizes the image by a factor of 2, which effectively cuts your search-space by a factor much more than 4 (since especially for the smaller faces, you have a lot of points to search). In my method I don't do that: I can find faces from 24x24 pixels and up (as opposed to 48x48 pixels for the OpenCV default classifier).

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  22. So, let me get this straight... by TooMuchEspressoGuy · · Score: 1, Troll
    ...NASA not only wants to waste our taxpayer dollars on useless, overfunded, wasteful government-sponsored ventures, but they *also* want our input on *how* to waste that money. One would think that, after the recent disasters that the agency has experienced as well as the money-pit that the International Space Station continues to be, they would eventually give up.

    With that in mind, here's an idea for a new "grand challenge:" See how many private groups/businesses can do NASA's job better than NASA. Because government monopolies such as NASA, like private monopolies, nearly always tend to produce lower quality goods at an inflated cost to the detriment of the taxpayer/consumer, I guarantee you that the number of entries (and successes) will be higher than one might think.

    --
    Many Bothans died to bring you this sig.
    1. Re:So, let me get this straight... by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

      Why should we let NASA blow money on projects like that? Because the DoD would have all the fun! I'd much rather spend $87 billion to get to Mars and start colonizing than blowing things up that we then have to rebuild while killing people.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    2. Re:So, let me get this straight... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that a person who feels that space program is a waste is a person of small mind.

      Imagine five hundred years now. Do you think people will be sitting around wishing that NASA hadn't "wasted" money on space exploration?

      I bet all the people who bitched and complained that NASA was wasting money on satellite research shut their stupid mouths once they got digital cable TV and instant cell phone communication. It's typical of small minded people. They don't want anyone to do anything unless it produces instant candy. blech.

  23. Girls Gone Orbital by smatt-man · · Score: 1

    I think they need to find some hot astro-babes. Then more people would watch the internation space station cams. More people watching means, higher ratings, higher ratings means more money from sponers.

    --

    ---
    Lousy rotten karmic retribution.
  24. High Specific Impulse Engines by krysith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, what NASA needs more than anything, is low cost access to orbit. That is what the X-prize is about, but NASA could probably get more bang for their buck by having a prize for a high specific impulse rocket engine which can operate in atmosphere. Simply set a minimum thrust, maximum weight, and minimum specific impulse, and see what people come up with. Ion and plasma engines have Isp of 10,000 or higher, but can't run in atmosphere (and require power supplies). If the space shuttle had that high of an Isp, it would need a ton or two of fuel (just guessing, don't feel like doing the math at the moment).

    Of course, who knows how someone would find a way to make an engine like that. However if it is something with a low cost of entry (unlike the X-prize) which every backyard inventor can work on, then you instantly have a few thousand amateur rocket scientists working for a prize of a few hundred thousand. A pretty good deal, I say.

    1. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by HeghmoH · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fuel is cheap. Several million pounds of liquid oxygen and hydrogen may sound like a lot, but in fact fuel costs only account for about 1% of the cost of a Shuttle mission. Contrast this with airlines, where fuel is around 1/3rd of the total cost for any given flight.

      Lowering fuel requirements would lower costs indirectly, mostly by allowing vehicles to be smaller and more robust, of course, but fuel itself isn't a killer.

      The problem is that better engines are a fundamental physical problem. The Isp of chemical engines is limited by the physics of chemical bonds, and you aren't going to get anything beyond small incremental improvements. If something was workable, it would be in use. Research is being done, and a few million dollars in a prize won't speed anything along. There are two near-current technologies we know of that would radically reduce fuel requirements and cost to get to orbit, and neither one would be influenced by a prize. Orion is politically impossible, although technically easy. Space elevators are waiting on materials and will cost tens of billions of dollars to develop. Other hypothetical systems, like laser launch, railguns, etc. still need lots of fundamental research to be done to become remotely practical.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    2. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      Orion IS politically possible. We who support nuclear just need to drown out the voices of those who are anti-nuclear.

      As for a Space elevator costing tens of billions of dollars, that is still insanely cheap compared to what it would cost to ship everything up or down the way we are now. After all, once we get a space elevator up, we could just start assembling ships in space instead of on earth. That would also give us the ability to eliminate the heat shielding and smooth surfaces required for atmospheric takeoff and landing.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    3. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by Myself · · Score: 1

      At this point, having no better place to write it down, I should mention a weird little idea that my brother and I came up with a while back. It might even be possible with current technology.

      One of the most cumbersome parts of Orion was the shock absorption springs and blast plates to smooth out the explosions happening underneath. Nuclear propulsion would be much easier if it could be made continuous.

      Is it possible to make a critical mass of fissionable material while it's in vapor state? Consider a set of nozzles aimed at a common point, squirting out a stream of uranium vapor at phenomenal pressure. If the central point gets dense enough, it'll start fission and keep going as long as the gas supply and pressure keep up.

      If handling high temperature vapors proves difficult, consider using dust or pellets instead. It would be a bit tricky to propel the particles without suspending them in another gas, but magnetic containment might make it easier. Either way, blasting the fissionable material into the reaction as a continuous stream would make the propulsion smoother and easier to handle. The thrust from such a system would be unbelievably powerful, far beyond even Orion's pulsed output.

      Sure, it's well outside anything we've done yet. But I don't see anything here that's considered impossble, simply "absurdly diffcult". Be the first in your star system with a nuclear afterburner!

    4. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      Orion IS politically possible. We who support nuclear just need to drown out the voices of those who are anti-nuclear.

      Not gonna happen. I don't know what the numbers are on "pro-nuclear" versus "anti-nuclear", but you need to be far more than pro-nuclear to be pro-Orion. I'm pro-nuclear-power, but I'm not pro-Orion, and I think very few people would be. Nuclear power is, in fact, incredibly clean. It releases basically no radiation unless there's an accident. By contrast, a single Orion launch would set off tens or hundreds of nuclear bombs in the atmosphere. Even the cleanest bombs don't use up a majority of their reactants, they just vaporize and go into the atmosphere. That is irresponsible. You can't even use arguments like, "it wouldn't be a measurable increase", because it would be a measurable increase. It may not be that terrible, but I don't think it's worth it unless it was the only way to avert a planetwide disaster. I believe that most pro-nuclear people feel more or less the same way as I do, which means most people will never agree to an Orion program, and that is pretty much the definition of "politically impossible".

      Regarding the space elevator, you're absolutely right, but in classic Slashdot fashion you're missing the context. The post I was responding to (and, hell, the article itself) was talking about using small prizes to fuel private development. A fifty-billion-dollar space elevator is not going to get any kind of help from a ten-million-dollar prize.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
    5. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a gas core nuclear thermal rocket.

      Los Alamos has been researching this concept as an improvement to the proven solid core nuclear rockets. (Nuclear Rocket Overview)

      It operates essentially as you've described, with a critical mass of gaseous uranium swirling in a vortex around the center of a rocket engine. Hydrogren flows through the center of the vortex, is heated, and expelled.

      No working prototype has been built, largely because of the difficult fluid dynamics involved, and the problem of preventing your uranium from flowing out the nozzle with the hydrogen. A working gas core rocket is expected to have ~3000s Isp (versus ~1000s for solid core), and slightly lower thrust than a similar solid core rocket.

    6. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Well, what NASA needs more than anything, is low cost access to orbit. That is what the X-prize is about,
      Sorry, the X-prize is nothing about that. The X-Prize is about developing a low cost ballistic reuseable'spacecraft'. The leap from there to an orbital booster (even setting aside the thorny problem of re-entry) is a long one. (That's not to say the Prize isn't valuable, but that it's only a small start.)
      but NASA could probably get more bang for their buck by having a prize for a high specific impulse rocket engine which can operate in atmosphere.
      Engines aren't even remotely the problem. What NASA needs is cheap, reliable boosters with a useful payload. The primary cost driver today for all NASA launchers is the enourmous number of man-hours needed to prep a booster for launch.
    7. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by lommer · · Score: 1

      I think what he's proposing is much different actually - rather than having a mass of uranium heat a fuel to propel it out the back, he's talking about actually having a steady stream of super-critical gaseous uranium/plutonium into a rocket chamber. It's actually more similar to current rockets than a NERVA engine. I don't know that it'll be practical within our lifetimes though, the more i think about it the more ENOURMOUS engineering challenges present themselves.

    8. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by lommer · · Score: 1

      Orion has snowball's chance in hell. I am pro-nuclear power, I even support NERVA engines for planes and such, but I would never support orion because, as another poster pointed out - you're talking about the atmospheric detonation of many nuclear bombs with a single launch. IIRC, before it got killed, the orion project entailed a study of the environmental/health effects of a launch that predicted dozens of terminal cancer patients per launch of orion, merely from the radiatioactive materials released into the atmosphere.

    9. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by lommer · · Score: 1

      Actually, this doesn't make much sense - as you pointed out, NASA already has high specific impulse engines with isp's of >10,000. These engines actually can run in the atmosphere, it's just that they're useless for boosting crafts out of earth's gravity well - because they have incredibly small amounts of thrust (typically 1 kN). What NASA needs are engines that have higher ISPs, yet still produce similar amounts of thrust to those in use today, or better yet, those that were used on the Saturn V (33,400 kN).

    10. Re:High Specific Impulse Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the problem is that people think Isp matters. As you said, fuel is cheap. So are fuel tanks. The way to build an inexpensive rocket is to not maximize its performance. Liquid hydrogen turbopumps are complicated because the density is so low. I suspect that you can launch almost anything into orbit for less money using a cheap engine with kerosene than a high performance engine with hydrogen.

      A rocket engine is less complicated than a car engine. It has less moving parts. But somehow, it ends up costing 1000 times as much. Some of that is from the mass-production benefits of car engines, but a lot of it is from the overdesign of rocket engines. Minimizing the weight of the engine forces the design to go very close to the point where it will blow up. Rocket engines would cost far less if they were made out of easy to machine metals like steel, and the cost savings would more than make up for the increased fuel requirement (especially since fuel volume is more important than fuel mass for most cost figures).

  25. Ok, what about this: by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Funny
    We're very keen to see a person on Mars. And we also know that using current technologies, the costs will be extraordinary. There's probably no reason for that, I mean, a converted Winnebago (it doesn't have to be roadworthy, so you can always get a used one for about $4,000, launched into space, sealed and made to withstand one atmosphere of pressure (how hard can that be?) together with some parachutes for the actual landing could be used to transport someone from here to there quite easily and comfortably. Parachutes, of the sort used by the military et al, are quite expensive, but those aren't really suitable for this kind of application, so you'd have to make your own, and funnily enough that again works in your favour - some huge sheets, bought from Goodwill, stitched together, ought to do the trick.

    Issues with solar flares etc can be dealt with by wrapping the entire thing in aluminium foil. Aluminium foil is reflective (I can't believe nobody's thought of this), so this should protect anyone inside, and that's assuming a solar flare occurs at all.

    Communication costs are coming down all the time. Most cellular companies these days have excellent coverage and well defined roaming agreements.

    So really, it ought to be quite cheap, but I think the reason it's seen as expensive is because it's professionals doing it, and they can't very well be seen stitching old sheets together and covering rusty Winnebagos in foil.

    So what I'd do, if I were NASA, is set up an award of $6,000 for the first person to go to Mars and come back in one piece.

    And if NASA's willing to do this, I for one would throw my hat into the ring.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    1. Re:Ok, what about this: by hal2814 · · Score: 1

      Hey, if I'm going into space in a Winnebago, I'd better have a Mog for a copilot. Where are you going to find one of those here on earth? It's a catch 22.

    2. Re:Ok, what about this: by halo8 · · Score: 1

      wow, thats like sooo stupid it could work.

      --
      The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
    3. Re:Ok, what about this: by Rorschach1 · · Score: 1

      Please.

      Everyone knows Airstream trailers make better pressure vessels.

      Besides, NASA's already got some on hand.

  26. Biosphere 3? by johnjay · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Create an almost entirely closed environment (receiving only heat and sunlight from outside), that is able to support human life indefinitely.

    I know the name is cringe-worthy, but (I think) it hasn't been done successfully yet, and it needs to be.

  27. i see... by acceber · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ...enrich NASA research by reaching new communities. Help address traditional technology development obstacles...
    But the overview states that only US citizens who are not federal employees can enter. It is certainly limiting its goals of reaching new communities to enrich their research and only disadvantages NASA since they will be restricting themselves against potentially landmark innovations in science from other areas of the world.

    Innovations which address obstacles which have stood in the way of technological development in science would be of highest priority, were I to enter. Barriers in science such as the claim that NASA don't have the technology to fit a de-orbit module onto the Hubble so that it's eventual re-entry into earth doesn't threaten human lives, could be avoided. It would save a lot of time, money and other valuable resources including human labour if future obstacles were addressed in the design of new scientific material, instead of attempting to tackle the problem when its too late.

    1. Re:i see... by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 1
      Wouldn't someone from overseas just need to find a sponser who is a US citizen?

      I heard some guy from Nigeria is looking for a sponser, but that might be something else.

      --
      --- Ban humanity.
  28. So, um .. by Bitmanhome · · Score: 2, Funny

    They're running a contest to find more contests? Will there be another contest to determine the prize for this contest?

    --
    Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
  29. How about... by catdevnull · · Score: 1

    ...maybe a prize for "quality control" on some of those space craft, eh?

    --

    I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
  30. Ironic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "download Excel spreadsheet"

    Download OpenOffice Spread file.

    this is slashdot?

  31. Dangerous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely the Meglodon and the Kronosaurs will attack it?

    1. Re:Dangerous? by torpor · · Score: 1


      Yes. But for them we just use sharks with frickin' lasers.

      Sharks are good in the ocean, lasers are good for killin' shit.

      Sharks are also good for killin' shit, I admit, but I dunno about Meglodon. He doesn't look like a shark would bother him that much.

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  32. The Robotic Apprentice by Burl+Ives · · Score: 1

    Donald Trump invites 10 robots to help him run the new Trump Tower in Chicago.

    "IG-88... you're fired!"

    I predict the winner will be the first robot to construct a realistic looking hairpiece for the Donald.

  33. How about.... by Scrab · · Score: 1

    a way of preventing slashdotting? Lord knows it would get enough use.....

    --
    RoseColor red={0, 0xffff, 0x0000, 0x0000};VioletColour blue={0, 0x0000, 0x0000, 0xffff};find / -name *mybase*|chown you
  34. Prolonging the life of Hubble by theAmazing10.t · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about a contest to come up with ways to prolong the life of the Hubble telescope? It has been such a boon to astronomy and yet they plan on letting it just die. With some good minds out there and a little incentive maybe a safe alternative could be found to extend its life longer than is expected.

    1. Re:Prolonging the life of Hubble by alphaFlight · · Score: 1

      The prize for this should be ownership of hubble. Who ever can fix it, gets it!

      --
      -= alphaFlight =-
    2. Re:Prolonging the life of Hubble by Myself · · Score: 1

      I'd like to see more orbiting telescopes. Hubble's a great tool and yes it should be fixed, but more instruments could only mean more science. Maintaining and upgrading Hubble safely should be a top priority, but developing its replacement should be up there too.

      For bonus points, make sure the new one doesn't require corrective lenses upon installation, and make its onboard computers accept input in english and metric units. ;)

      Also, how about communications upgrades for the Deep Space Network? We've got so many probes out now, the data downlink schedule is pretty crowded. I wonder if a repeater, in fairly distant orbit, could capture some of those weak signals and retransmit them down to Earth in a stronger, narrower signal? That would open the door to more information from the existing equipment.

    3. Re:Prolonging the life of Hubble by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > The prize for this should be ownership of hubble. Who ever can fix it, gets it!

      Not a bad idea -- NASA's willing to write it off, there's a market for images from Hubble (from scientists who need to do research -- and even if it's grant money we're talking about, they could choose to spend that money for Hubble time, or spend it on adaptive optics from Earth, etc.) so why not let a private contractor salvage it and sell it out if he thinks he can make a buck while doing so?

      While we're at it -- why not back out of that asinine space treaty that prohibits private ownership of offworld land? The first person to get to Mars, spend one year there, and return alive, owns Mars.

      If it costs x dollars to get to Mars on the Zubrin plan, and you expect Mars to be worth more than, say, 10 * x dollars in 5-10 years, then founding Mars, Inc. is a worthy investment. Otherwise, it's not.

      As technology advances, someday the cost to get there will drop, and/or the expected of Mars (tourism, science, people who want to colonize a new world just for the heck of it) will increase.

      If there's a property reward of an entire farking planet available for the taking, human nature guarantees that the mission to Mars will start the same day it makes sense to go there. No worrying about NASA wasting $1T on flags-and-footprints PR exercises (going before we're ready). But also no waiting for NASA bureaucrats to twiddle their thumbs for decades after we're ready.

    4. Re:Prolonging the life of Hubble by topynate · · Score: 1

      How can you retain ownership? It's not like you could call the police if someone trespassed.

    5. Re:Prolonging the life of Hubble by Teancum · · Score: 1
      The "Moon Treaty" only limits soverign governments who sign this treaty from ever claiming national territory on any place other than on the Earth. To quote:

      Article II

      Outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means.

      I think this was an incredibly shortsighted viewpoint on the part of the U.S. government back in 1967 (when the treaty was signed and ratified by the U.S. Senate), but at the time most of Congress felt that we would never get even to the moon, much less be able to build any resonable space colonies, the Apollo program not withstanding.

      Private ownership of extraterrestial bodies is not expressly forbidden, but the mechanism for being able to grant that ownership and the legal machinery to even file for ownership is simply not in place. There are a few people who are still trying, even without formal sanction.

      Two sites do come to mind though:

      http://www.planetaryinvestments.com/

      and

      http://www.lunarembassy.com/

      Personally, I think both are total scam artists along the lines of people buying stars to name after friends and relatives. Still, this is more or less harmless fun regardless of these so-called land claims. If the USA doesn't have soverign claim to the moon, there is no way that the Lunar Embassy could possibly have legal claim through the land office of the U.S. government at San Francisco (the Lunar Embassy's claim to fame in this case).

      What is going to have to happen is some legal machinery to decide what laws apply to events that happen on these planetary bodies. For example, if you kill somebody on the moon, can you be convicted in the U.S. court system? Don't be too hasty here, because remember, soverign authority doesn't apply anymore.

      What about copyright laws? Do they apply in space as well? (Recording contracts are now starting to cover extraterrestial distribution rights due to a recording company executive worried about who owned distribution rights to music the Astronauts in the Apollo program were playing.)

      So far these issues haven't been dealt with because for now all places except for the Apollo missions have been built on the Earth, and soverignty claims can be resolved. If you kill somebody on the ISS, it would matter what module you killed them in, then it would be either Russian, U.S.A., or E.U. courts that would be authorized to prosecute based on what module the crime happened in. That would still be a big mess, legally speaking (not to mention the physical mess on the ISS itself).

      I'm using murder here because that is a crime that would not be lightly brushed under the table if it were to happen in space. Lesser crimes like tax evasion (like what happened during the flight of Apollo XIII when John Swigert forgot to file his income taxes before he left) would probabally wait or could be sorted out without a big international incident.

      I think this also solves rather nicely who or what would be able to enforce land rights on a place like the moon. If they can lock you up in jail and confiscate your personal property, they can also grant you real estate rights.

      I would personally hate giving this power to the U.N., but at least that is an international organization that could in theory be able to establish these property rights. Just imagine though that the U.N. would also be able to pass civil laws for ordinary people and levy taxes. That's why I wouldn't want them trying to decide what would happen on the future homestead for my grandkids.

      The only real legitimate route at this point is going to be the creation of a wholly new soverign entity that has no relationship to any of the signatory members of the Moon Treaty.

  35. THIS FALL ON NASATV! by _aa_ · · Score: 1

    It's inevitable; an "Astronaut Training Reality Show," winner gets to go on a space mission.

    These contests aren't about discovering the next technological advancement. If NASA needed a new technology, they could just use the $20mil and contract it or do it themselves. No, this is all about public relations and generating interest in the space program.

    The training program is already configured like a reality show, just add camera crew. Contestants have to endure countless hours of torture, physical challenges, training and conditioning, and at the end of it all Simon Cowell decides who gets to goto the moon. Or something like that.

    If nothing else it would be nice to see a good documentary on the training program.

    1. Re:THIS FALL ON NASATV! by BKDotCom · · Score: 2, Informative

      NBC had that in the works and payed $40 million for the rights for "Destination MIR"

      http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/09/12/mir.sur vi vor.ap/

  36. At the risk of sound crass... by corporate_ai · · Score: 1

    How about a contest where NASA learns how to successfully recover Orbitors? We landed on the moon with the computing power of an Atari 2600 but the drive and ability of that era seem long gone.

    --
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
  37. That's a horrible idea. by oneiros27 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The quickest way to make this happen is a one-way trip. I doubt NASA is going to fund an group to kill someone, no matter if the person is a volunteer who's willing to do it.

    [Now, there's other groups in the US government who might be willing to provide funds for killing people, I just don't think that NASA is the one, though]

    But let's think about it -- you'd probably have to find someone who's willing to make the one-way trip, but wouldn't be crazy enough to commit suicide on the trip there. That's a pretty dedicated person. [Although, I am making the assumption that they'd be looking for a live human on Mars, and not just someone shooting a corpse up there because of a poorly worded contest]

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  38. How About this prize: by mr_don't · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    First organization to actually help people wins! 300 million for a damn gravity probe goes a long way toward our underfunded public school system

    1. Re:How About this prize: by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      Well, since you brought up the numbers. 300 million/40 million school kids (a low estimate) comes out to $7.50 per student. I don't see how that is going to affect the school system much when the average amount spent per year per student is OVER $9,000, and increase of ess than 0.1%. I'd rather have the money going towards space rather than an inconsequentialy small increase somewhere else.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    2. Re:How About this prize: by johannesg · · Score: 1
      Let's say there are 30 million people in that underfunded public school system of yours. What benefit would they have from having $10 each? How would it improve their education?

      Education, like health, is a great goal and shouldn't be underfunded. But we should also recognize that they are essentially bottomless pits as far as funding is concerned...

  39. New battery contest! by bwags · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I see one of the biggest things holding back the computer industry is the lack of a good battery. I want a battery that can power a laptop for a couple of years. We need more power!

  40. Prize for detection of numerical errors by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    How about some interval math implementations to alert people that hey, those numbers seem a bit out of range... they're probably not in the right units! There's nothing more embarassing than crashing a probe into Mars, except for crashing a probe into Mars because the units were wrong on the input data.

    --
    stuff |
  41. 20 million dollars? Piffle! by Darth+Yoshi · · Score: 5, Interesting
    If you're going to award monetary prizes, why not get serious.

    Jerry Pournelle was suggested the following:

    I can solve the space access problem with a few sentences.

    Be it enacted by the Congress of the United States:

    The Treasurer of the United States is directed to pay to the first American owned company (if corporate at least 60% of the shares must be held by American citizens) the following sums for the following accomplishments. No monies shall be paid until the goals specified are accomplished and certified by suitable experts from the National Science Foundation or the National Academy of Science:

    1. The sum of $2 billion to be paid for construction of 3 operational spacecraft which have achieved low earth orbit, returned to earth, and flown to orbit again three times in a period of three weeks.

    2. The sum of $5 billion to be paid for construction and maintenance of a space station which has been continuously in orbit with at least 5 Americans aboard for a period of not less than three years and one day. The crew need not be the same persons for the entire time, but at no time shall the station be unoccupied.

    3. The sum of $12 billion to be paid for construction and maintenance of a Lunar base in which no fewer than 31 Americans have continuously resided for a period of not less than four years and one day.

    4. The sum of $10 billion to be paid for construction and maintenance of a solar power satellite system which delivers at least 800 megaWatts of electric power to a receiving station or stations in the United States for a period of at least two years and one day.

    5. The payments made shall be exempt from all US taxes.

    That would do it. Not one cent to be paid until the goals are accomplished. Not a bit of risk, and if it can't be done for those sums, well, no harm done to the treasury.

    Henry Vanderbilt points out that having a prize, say $1 billion, for the second firm to achieve point (1) above will get more into the competition, and produce better results. I agree.


    --
    // TODO: fix sig
  42. As Long As NASA Holds The Purse Strings .... by Doug+Dante · · Score: 2, Insightful

    These challenges are not the same as X-Prize, as they have shifted from ones directly competing with NASA (e.g. independent, private launch capabilities) towards ones more complimentary to NASA (e.g. better Astronaut gloves, robotic insects).

    If the US Government wants to encourage more independent space resarch, the Congress and President must work together to establish goals INDEPENDENT of NASA. One possibility is to simply have the Congress double the prize money for the next few X-Prizes once those details are finalized.

    NASA will NOT spend its money to pay for the development of a competing private space industry.

    --
    The world will not get better through technology. We must seek to be better people.
  43. Thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, thanks to the poster of this article. I have an idea that I really want to pursue and the money from this prize might just let me do it.

    -Ben

  44. Watch out for the ATF by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Guess the contests will have to have nothing to do with model rockets or the ATF will whine and complain.

  45. Easy: by Mac+Degger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here's my idea: 'best plan for developing and maintaining cheap space tourism', the prize money to be invested in the application of aformentioned plan.

    --
    -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
  46. Re:This place is such an abonimation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, in Soviet Russia God smites YOU!

  47. gimme a ref and forget the sci-fi by fantomas · · Score: 1

    do you have a solid ref- apart from sci-fi? No disrespect intended but anybody can write anything in sci-fi, do you have a link handy to any military/ scientific work done in the past? (nice photos of course welcomed cos it's Friday afternoon at work...time for slacking off :-) )

    1. Re:gimme a ref and forget the sci-fi by VernonNemitz · · Score: 1

      Pournell's column was non-fiction, although it was published in an SF mag ("Galaxy" if I recall right). Here is a page that contains some info (seek the word "suit").

  48. Capture the Flag! by Cornflake+Man · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hey, did'nt they leave a flag on the moon last time they were there?

    --
    Artifiicial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
  49. Hyperspace global un-sofocator... by atlacatl · · Score: 1

    As a breathing being, I'm tired of the reliance of air to survive, so I'm planning of creating a pill (or suppository) that liberates me from the old-fashion oxigen need. This will greatly reduce $ for space missions...

    My ransome, I mean...grant requirements - Imagine Dr. Evil with pinky in mouth - "One, million dollars..."

    --
    Esta es una firma en Espanol.
    1. Re:Hyperspace global un-sofocator... by Log+from+Blammo · · Score: 1

      Even if you found some method of oxygenating the blood, it is also important to remove the carbon dioxide. If you also had some method of freeing the oxygen from CO2 and sequestering the carbon, you could substitute the external energy source for breathing. Just remember to watch those batteries.

      --
      "This quote is a product of the Frobozz Magic Quote Company."
  50. Free Windows XP by N8F8 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Just kidding folks. Now just settle down.

    --
    "God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
  51. Space elevator materials by Rorschach1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Easy contest to define, but maybe not so easy to win. Just specify the material properties needed for a practical space elevator, and offer a sizeable prize to the first group to present a sample of a certain size.

    Also, you could offer annual prizes for the best results each year, even if they don't meet the final prize criteria. At least that'd give the research groups a short-term goal to reach for.

    1. Re:Space elevator materials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Space elevator material? It's being done.

      One of the candidate Challenges is the "nanotube tether". Go to the official web site or download the Excel spreadsheet mentioned in the Slashdot story.

  52. The obvious one... by halliburton · · Score: 1

    ...warp drive

  53. Any tips for Domain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a workstudy at a local college. The domain is NT4 server with 2k workstations. Our net admin is worthless, so I'm trying to figure out a way to limit the amount of spy/adware we have on our systems, which is alot.

    I'd also like to limit installations that don't quite qualify as adware, like Yahoo Messanger and Google toolbar(questionable). I've limited access to the Program Files dir, no write access. But what I'm wondering is there a built in feature for NT4 to limit installs of any kind to users? If so please respond with any tips that may be useful!
    Email will probably work best if you're really generous

    spite_fowl@yahoo.com

    Thanks!

    PS: OT problem also, I've been trying to lock down the roaming profile, so that they download the profile from the server, but no changes are made and the local profile is wiped out on logoff, This has become a tiresome delimna, I can lock down the profile on the server, but the local profile remains and causes some problems. Any tips from MS admins would be helpful!

  54. Crewman for Mars by AlecC · · Score: 1

    I know just the person for a one-way trip to Mars - determined, clever, very strong sense of self-preservation, deserves a one way ticket far, far away from the human race: Saddam Hussein. *And* it saves the government from deciding whether to shoot him or not.

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  55. Stark Draper Open Source Rocketry Award by Baldrson · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    The Stark Draper Open Source Rocketry Award has been around for a while now. Here is the text:

    Stark Draper Open Source Rocketry Award

    I hereby, and until notice to the contrary, endow the Stark Draper Open Source Rocketry Award. This prize will consist of 3 ounces of gold or the monetary equivalent going to the next amateur team launching a vehicle to a height in excess of 200 kilometers, which in my opinion qualifies as an open source entry. These funds will be disbursed at my sole discretion.

    For a an entry to qualify as "Open Source", for purposes of this prize, the team launching a rocket must make available sufficient information in machine readable form via the web to create and launch a rocket the same as the entry which travelled to 200 kilometers. The entry description should also include a description of safety procedures used to launch the rocket in question. The entry description considered must be public domain or available under a license that qualifies as Open Source according to the Open Source Consortium. The manufacture of the rocketry entry should be accomplished by tools and materials that are readily available to the general public from multiple sources or are themselves Open Source.

    My primary intent here is to create an award that encourages free distribution of detailed rocketry designs that can be refined by a number of individuals similar to the way Linux kernel development has harness the energies of a large team throughout the world. It is not my intent to encourage entrants to relinquish their rights to patent protection by publishing their inventions (though the act of publishing may have legal ramifications). Candidates for the Stark Draper Open Source Rocketry Award may be relinquishing substantial rights to maintain intellectual property via trade secrets (and may be relinquishing foreign patent rights if they haven't filed by the date they publish on the web). Entry descriptions may be "dual licensed" (i.e. the entry description may be available on the web via the GPL, but the entrant might still charge corporations for whom the GPL is not an acceptable license a fee to get this same material under some other license which might not be an Open Source license). I will be loose in my interpretation of what "Open Source" means for purposes of this prize (though I may endow a future prize with a tighter definition).

    There are real difficulties in applying the Open Source model to amateur rocketry. I would expect that entries to this contest might be using rather different sets of tools and materials--many of which will have proprietary components. It is my hope here to provide some basic designs that will be ready when techniques like those described in Marshall Burns's "Automated Fabrication" or Eric Drexler's "Nanosystems", make creation of small runs of complex machines relatively inexpensive. Still, gcc didn't need the linux kernel and BSD kernels to be ready and useful. Nor did linux need availability of an Open Source design for a microprocesser to be manufactured in quantity to be useful. I expect that over time, we'll see standards emerge for Open Source rocketry designs. I intend to revise this award description to reflect these standards as they emerge (for example, I can imagine that we might eventually want to specify that some specific Open Source tool describe the design and assembly of a rocket when we can assume that the lion's share of rocketry amateurs have access to tools compliant with specific standards). I will give folks advance warning of any such changes so that this minimally affects work that is in progress.

    Background

    My real goal in supporting space development is recreating the pos

  56. Substantive List by justanyone · · Score: 1
    Here are my list items:
    1. COD DELIVERY / PAY BY THE KILO: NASA shall pay by the kilogram for goods delivered to the ISS. The price shall start at $5000 per kilogram for the first 100,000 kilograms delivered. No contract required, cash on delivery (COD). Goods desired can be any consumable and capital goods including liquid O2, liquid H2, military MRE's.

    2. RAIL GUN: Competition using railguns. Projectiles of various sizes in different classifications (class 1 = 1 kg, class 2 = 2 kg, class 10 = 10 kg, etc.). Prizes for longest distance, highest altitude, largest mass * altitude, most number of shots in 15 minutes, combinations of above, for each class.

    3. HIGHEST ISP: prizes for the highest ISP (standard impulse) per year's competition. Minimum Delta-V applies.

    4. OPEN AUCTION: Working on Experience Curve theory, NASA must purchase launch capability without specifying vehicle specs, and must do so in an open-outcry auction (delivery of this payload to this location (orbit), bidder must pay insurance). Payment to be made after sucessful delivery to specified orbit. Each launch shall be bid separately and compeitively. NASA will trust-fund guarantee at least a specific number of auctions will be held each year for the next 3 years to assist industry planning.

    5. NASA shall make available, for a nominal fee of $1, launch services in the form of tracking and telemetry recording/transmission, to any private launch company that has a previously proven launch capability up to an altitude of 100,000 feet.
    Just some ideas here.
    -- Kevin J. Rice
  57. Re:i see... Make it INTERNATIONAL by javcrapa · · Score: 1

    TRUE! why only us citizens? if they opened the contest to any other friendly country that doesn't has a space program, many great ideas will come! people from other places think, live, solve problems differently!

  58. The technology doesn't apply. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Also, nuclear submarines generate their Oxygen by splitting watter into H2 and O2.

    Unless someone's found a decent source of water on Mars, the technology doesn't apply.

    1. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by torpor · · Score: 1

      Eh?

      Unless someone's found a decent source of water on Mars, the technology doesn't apply.

      Unless someones found a decent source of water on Mars, we ain't going there.

      So if we do go there, technology that gives us what we need from water, does apply.

      Unless we send robots, of course, but in that case as well nuclear power does apply ... if but for the greenies.

      As far as the greenies go, well we should use sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads for that situation, but if we send them to Mars, there still better be water...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    2. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by kippy · · Score: 1

      Oxygen can also come from reacting CO2 with hydrogen. It gives you graphite and water. split the water again, breathe the oxygen, hydrate the CO2 and repeat. a small supply of hydrogen that you can get from the air or polar caps is all you need. That and power.

    3. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by kippy · · Score: 1

      Unless someones found a decent source of water on Mars, we ain't going there.

      The thousands of cubic kilometers of water on both poles of the planet aren't enough for you? You must take long showers.

    4. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by torpor · · Score: 1

      no, i meant, since there -was- water on mars, we can use it, and thus nuclear power was relevant technology.

      never mind. it is time for a long shower actually, yeah ...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    5. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      Interesting point.

      It should also be mentioned you can get C6H12O6 from reacting H2O with CO2. So it's not impossible to get some nourishment from the atmosphere, too. (But you'll still have to find some source for other nutrients like protiens.)

    6. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by kippy · · Score: 1

      cool, I hadn't considered that.

      as far as food goes, there's stuff you can synthesize like you mentioned. If you have a functional greenhouse and a botanist along, you can grow a balanced diet too. If you want protein from animals, that requires some kind of small mars-farm which would probably be a souped up greenhouse with chickens and bunnies running around.

      That's all settlement type stuff. The initial missions (here's hoping that there will be) will probably just ship dried and powdered food. a few tons of that should be able to hold over a 6 person crew for a couple years. Just send a cheap dumb cargo launch to land before the humans.

    7. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      It might be cheaper to start with a biosphere-type system. Several tons of consumables costs a bundle to launch.

    8. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by kippy · · Score: 1

      It all depends on the mission parameters. for a science outpost, you don't want them wasting their time trying to get the beans to grow. In that case, it's worth the investment to launch a bunch of food up there. a lot of the cost of launch goes into the engineering of the probe/craft. If it's just a glorified FedEx, it will probably be "cheap". That is, $25 million as opposed to $800 million.

      for a colony of 50 people it makes sense to send them some starter food and the machinery to build a biosphere/habitat. Something like a plastics factory, mini-foundry and nuclear reactor. Given the proper starter supplies, power sources and smart, tough people you could make a pretty nifty and mostly self-sustaining settlement.

    9. Re:The technology doesn't apply. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      An interesting advantage to a biosphere on Mars is the presence of a great deal of CO2. You don't have to worry about striking a delicate balance to provide oxygen. As long as you provide an excess of plants, excess O2 can be stored or leaked into the atmosphere.

      A sort of slow terraforming through pollution.

  59. EM Assisted Launch by i8a4re · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What about an electromagnetic assisted launch? I remember from my astro engineering class that a very significant percentage of any launch vehicles fuel is required to just get it to clear the tower. Why not build a scale model launch vehicle and tower that is capable of attaining a certian altitude using EM assisted launch. Make one of the requirements that you use 20% less fuel than a non-EM assisted launch. We already have maglev trains that go 300 MPH and roller coasters driven by linear induction motors, so it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to adapt these technologies to space launch.

    --

    If I drive fast enough at the red light, it'll appear green.
    1. Re:EM Assisted Launch by justanyone · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This was my intention when (above) I mentioned railgun launches. Since most of the mass we want in orbit is (at present) consumables and other commodity products, this would do fine for EM launches.

      A competition featuring the best railgun designs (open to all university engineering students especially) would stimulate development of this area. I am convinced the military has versions of this they are not mentioning, but the civilian world should have some capabilities here too.

      This is a fairly simple project to build for an engineering department, and would combine the disciplines of mechanical, power, and computer engineering departments to get things right. Further, if groups of engineers in a city wanted to build such a device, this would be a possible thing to try.

      A note about manned launches using EM / railgun / mass driver technologies. In physics class in high school we worked out that it was nearly impossible to build a railgun / EM launch vehicle that would achieve orbital velocity and carry a manned payload. The G-force limit of 12 G's prohibits acceleration to mach 25+ in a reasonable ground distance (it's way too long geographically to build).
      MATH:
      Escape velocity (Earth) = 11000 m/s (about mach 25 or 19,000 mph)
      1 G acceleration = 10 m/s/s
      = 1100 seconds @ 1 g
      = 110 seconds @ 10 g's
      = 11 seconds @ 100 g's
      = 5 seconds @ 500 g's

      This competition would be easy to run (at some gunnery range, out over an ocean, etc.). Military radar could track the payloads. Bonus points could include if the payloads were recoverable, and more bonus points if the payloads contained inert liquids that would simulate liquid O2 in density.

    2. Re:EM Assisted Launch by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful
      A competition featuring the best railgun designs (open to all university engineering students especially) would stimulate development of this area.
      Except that railgun design isn't really the show stopper. Developing a TPS to protect the payload from the effects of atmospheric heating *is* however a showstopper.

      Even if the exit of the railgun was on top of Mt Everest, you are still deep within the sensible atmosphere, and miles and miles below where boosters normally add their speed. (Boosters normally go more-or-less straight up, then bend their trajectories over to add the horizontal velocity needed to reach orbit.) Given the amount of atmosphere you have to traverse after leaving the railgun, you need to leave it at much higher than orbital speed, to offset for drag, that you have a truly frightful thermal problem.

      Another issue often handwaved away by EM launcher supporters is the need for a propulsion system for the circularization burn. Lunar surface-Lx railguns don't need these systems because they are not going into orbit around the launching body. Earth-to-orbit systems however do and generally end up being around half the total throweight at the launch systems muzzle. (Just having a projectile traveling at orbital velocity is meaningless. The *direction* of the velocity vector is all important, and EM launchers cannot produce the proper vector.)

      The final problem is the extreme G factor typical of EM launches. This causes structural weight to dominate total throweight, to the great detriment of payload fraction and total payload throughtput of the launcher. (In theory the structure can be recovered as raw material at the target, but in practice you end up with more raw material than you can use.)

      . I am convinced the military has versions of this they are not mentioning,
      Why would you be so convinced? EM launchers are simply not practical in the near term, and are likely to remain so indefinetly to Earth-to-Orbit operations. There are simply too many practical problems.
    3. Re:EM Assisted Launch by Teancum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I do like the original poster's comments about using a railgun as an assist to get some initial velocity onto a rocket using a railgun right at launch. As he pointed out, a not insignificant percentage of the fuel is burned just trying to clear the launch tower itself... if the tower were a railgun instead, you could get some initial velocity from the launch system, just like aircraft carriers give some initial airspeed to jet fighters through a steam catapult system aboard ship. This isn't to say the fighters couldn't get airborne on their own, unassisted, but it does help to reduce costs of the carrier (they can have a smaller runway for launching fighters) and helps to get the fighters up to speed necessary to begin combat engagements earlier (this protects the ship as well).

      Keep in mind that the reason NASA launches spacecraft from Florida instead of New York is in part because the rotational energy of the Earth itself can be added to the orbital delta-v of the rocket to achieve orbit. The Russians put their launch complex in Kazakstan for the very same reason (instead of near Murmansk and launching over the Arctic Ocean).

      EM launchers as weapons I'm sure are being investigated. Getting a hunk of Lead or Uranium up to Mach 15-20 has many very good uses in trying to defend against other object that are also travling at Hypersonic speeds (like ICBMs). If that chunk of metal melts from atmospheric drag, it really doesn't matter.

      I would have to agree though that EM launchers are more pratical in a vacuum environment (like the Moon) or some extraterrestial mining application rather than something that comes from a planet with an atmosphere. A man-rated vehicle that can be launched from the moon would also be interesting.

      An alternative approach I have seen is to have a very powerful laser system help supply the energy of a launch system, where the laser is at the launch site and the ship only has mirrors and limited attitude thrusters. The problem with this approach is that the energy requirements to get this to work are incredible, and really havn't been work out that well. It gives a bonus that you can control rather precisely the acceleration of the vehicle, and the energy production is on the ground, not on the craft being accelerated. Even if this were only the 1st stage of the rocket, it would significantly cut costs.

    4. Re:EM Assisted Launch by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      I do like the original poster's comments about using a railgun as an assist to get some initial velocity onto a rocket using a railgun right at launch. As he pointed out, a not insignificant percentage of the fuel is burned just trying to clear the launch tower itself...
      The problem with whole scheme is that fuel is cheap, while railguns are not. Even when rockets get cheap enough that fuel costs become important (as is the situation for airlines today), the cost in fuel to boost the rocket that is heavier because of the acceleration from the railgun is more than the cost of the fuel needed to cover the same distance/reach the same velocity.

      And frankly, the proportion of the fuel burned to clear the launch tower is miniscule. The Shuttle clears it's tower in about 2 seconds. A modern ELV clears its tower in about 3-5 seconds. In both cases the first stage burn time is well over a minute.
      if the tower were a railgun instead, you could get some initial velocity from the launch system, just like aircraft carriers give some initial airspeed to jet fighters through a steam catapult system aboard ship. This isn't to say the fighters couldn't get airborne on their own, unassisted, but it does help to reduce costs of the carrier (they can have a smaller runway for launching fighters) and helps to get the fighters up to speed necessary to begin combat engagements earlier (this protects the ship as well).
      Um, no. A carrier uses a catpult because the aircraft cannot get into the air *at all* without significant assistance, not and carry any useful payload and fuel anyhow. Nor does it have anything to do with getting up to speed, as usually the speed at the end of the catapult isn't much above stall speed. I.E. the same speed it would have as it lifts off the runway. (Ever seen a fighter lose it's engines just off the end of a cat? It hits the water about 100'-150' in front of the carrier.)
      EM launchers as weapons I'm sure are being investigated. Getting a hunk of Lead or Uranium up to Mach 15-20 has many very good uses in trying to defend against other object that are also travling at Hypersonic speeds (like ICBMs). If that chunk of metal melts from atmospheric drag, it really doesn't matter.
      Um. no. That chunk of metal will vaporize within a few hundred yards, a mile at most, of the railgun muzzle. You need considerable TPS to go much further than 5-10 miles, which makes the EM launcher an enourmously inefficient weapon.
      An alternative approach I have seen is to have a very powerful laser system help supply the energy of a launch system, where the laser is at the launch site and the ship only has mirrors and limited attitude thrusters. The problem with this approach is that the energy requirements to get this to work are incredible, and really havn't been work out that well. It gives a bonus that you can control rather precisely the acceleration of the vehicle, and the energy production is on the ground, not on the craft being accelerated. Even if this were only the 1st stage of the rocket, it would significantly cut costs.
      The technichal problems (other than energy usage) of this approach are fairly easily worked out. The real problem is that it requires tremendous amounts of capital investment up front. It's not worth it unless you are launching a lot, yet one cannot launch a lot until there is a method as cheap (per flight) as a laser launcher. The same chicken-and-egg problem that has faced space acess for decades.
    5. Re:EM Assisted Launch by Teancum · · Score: 1
      This isn't to say the fighters couldn't get airborne on their own, unassisted, but it does help to reduce costs of the carrier (they can have a smaller runway for launching fighters) and helps to get the fighters up to speed necessary to begin combat engagements earlier (this protects the ship as well).


      Um, no. A carrier uses a catpult because the aircraft cannot get into the air *at all* without significant assistance, not and carry any useful payload and fuel anyhow. Nor does it have anything to do with getting up to speed, as usually the speed at the end of the catapult isn't much above stall speed. I.E. the same speed it would have as it lifts off the runway. (Ever seen a fighter lose it's engines just off the end of a cat? It hits the water about 100'-150' in front of the carrier.)


      Ever heard of a Naval Air Station? These are traditional air bases with a paved runway on the ground. They do indeed launch and house in hangers the very same fighters that are used on aircraft carriers. Indeed, when a carrier enters & leaves port, the fighters are not on deck, instead they go back to the NAS for long-term maintainence that wasn't performed onboard during the tour of duty. I don't recall any steam catapult on the runways built into the concrete runways at any of these airstrips, although admittedly the runway is considerably longer than is found on a deck of a carrier.

      That is exactly my point, that a carrier does a steam launch to make the impossible turn into something that is a real engineering accomplishment. The engines on a typical F-14 are powerful enough that it can fly straight up (for at least several thousand feet) with essentially no stall angle. Merely getting off the ground is not an issue at all for those planes.

      I think the overall issue here is that the traditional approach of using expendable rockets to send people to space simply needs to end. The Space Shuttle was a wonderful idea, but the actual implementation of it has turned out to be a near nightmare. Still, even with all of the problems with the Space Shuttle it has put more people into orbit than any other vehicle system with the possible exception of Soyuz, and even then it is rather close in terms of the total number of people flown into space. Failure rates are even rather comparable (I'm not going to rehash the arguments about which has killed more people.)

      NASA needs to think outside of the box, or it will no longer even exist as an agency. Looking at alternatives to current launch systems is one way to do that, and certainly they need to totally rethink the current STS approach to manned spaceflight.
    6. Re:EM Assisted Launch by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      I think the overall issue here is that the traditional approach of using expendable rockets to send people to space simply needs to end.
      Something nobody is arguing. The simple point is that EM launchers, long beloved of SF, theorists, and dreamers, turn out to not really work in practice. There are some huge issues that, baring unobtanium or handwavium TPS, that render the whole idea unworkable.
      NASA needs to think outside of the box, or it will no longer even exist as an agency. Looking at alternatives to current launch systems is one way to do that, and certainly they need to totally rethink the current STS approach to manned spaceflight.
      Certainly NASA needs to think out of the box. But thinking out of the box will not repeal the laws of physics.
    7. Re:EM Assisted Launch by shadowbearer · · Score: 1

      I'll comment a bit on this, if I may:

      Expendable launch vehicles have their uses. So do shuttle type delivery systems. Relying on one or the other to the exclusion of the other is not a smart solution right now, at the technological point we are at. (I'm not sure that it ever will be; ok, strike that, it's just plain stupid)

      We put way too many of our eggs into the shuttle basket, so to speak. That has left the US crippled for heavy launch, and for manned launch, capability when the shuttle goes down. Much the same arguments were going around after the Challenger accident - dunno if you remember, but back then the ratio of expenditure wrt to shuttle vs. expendable boosters was much worse than it is now.

      We are reaping what we sowed from the decision made back then. The major difference is that we have other options we can pursue now - tech wrt to expendable boosters has boosted (excuse pun) their reliability vastly over what was available back in the 70s when the shuttle was conceived and raped by the beancounters - the tech, and the machining/production capabilities, particularly with respect to CAD/CRC have gone far enough that it invalidates the arguments back then that the shuttle would be an effective solution to orbital delivery.

      My point? The point is that if we'd continued to develop the launch capability we already had, and put steady R&D dev into reusable systems, we'd most likely have a system that is a lot more reliable than what we ended up with - and more efficient, besides.

      The shuttle system was fought over so much that the best ideas got slaughtered in committee - the best ideas were never funded as they should have been. We *knew* how to R&D advanced flight systems - the AF had been doing it for decades, after all - if we'd simply continued the path we were on, we might have a viable cheap/lb system now.

      Instead, the whole process got taken over by the political beancounters, and the payment was Challenger and the media/public mess that resulted.

      Oh, fuck, that's even too simplified...

      It's late, and I'm drunk, and I really need to get off this subject :) I may very well be preaching to the converted, and if I am, I apologize.

      But just to make it ontopic to your post wrt to EM launchers; they are not impractical. Just very, very hard to design, and location is the key. There isn't any reason that we couldn't build an EM launcher up the side of some mountain on the equator (Chile) that serves as a replacement for the hardest part of accelerating a projectile to orbit - it's just not economically, nor politically (!) viable right now.
      That's not to say that it won't be, and it wouldn't violate any laws of physics, either. Heinlein wasn't that stupid.

      SB

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
    8. Re:EM Assisted Launch by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      We are reaping what we sowed from the decision made back then. The major difference is that we have other options we can pursue now - tech wrt to expendable boosters has boosted (excuse pun) their reliability vastly over what was available back in the 70s when the shuttle was conceived and raped by the beancounters
      Actually, reliability still stands close to it's historic values, somewhere around 99%. A figure that would be scandalous in any other form of transportation.
      - the tech, and the machining/production capabilities, particularly with respect to CAD/CRC have gone far enough that it invalidates the arguments back then that the shuttle would be an effective solution to orbital delivery.
      That depends on what you mean by 'effective'. Fact is, launch costs for the big boosters haven't gone down all that much. (They are currently dropping because the market is soft, not because costs have dropped.)
      But just to make it ontopic to your post wrt to EM launchers; they are not impractical. Just very, very hard to design, and location is the key. There isn't any reason that we couldn't build an EM launcher up the side of some mountain on the equator (Chile) that serves as a replacement for the hardest part of accelerating a projectile to orbit - it's just not economically, nor politically (!) viable right now.
      There isn't a mountain in the world high enough that atmospheric drag and heating would be small enough to no longer be a barrier. There is no way any terrestrial based EM launcher can get away without requiring significant additional propulsion for the circulariztion burn. It isn't a matter of politics, it isn't a matter of economics, it's a matter of physics. EM launchers don't work in the real world even remotely like the ones in SF.
      That's not to say that it won't be, and it wouldn't violate any laws of physics, either. Heinlein wasn't that stupid.
      "The Man Who Sold the Moon" was written long before the problems with an EM catapult WRT atmospheric heating was clearly understood. (He made a second mistake about atmospheric heating in that one too... His re-entry method won't work.) In "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" the EM catapult was located on the airless moon (no atmospheric heating) and did not launch into orbit (thus not requiring a circulariztion burn), neatly avoiding the two major problems of an earth based launcher.

      Heinlein wasn't stupid, but he also wasn't infallible.

    9. Re:EM Assisted Launch by shadowbearer · · Score: 1

      There isn't a mountain in the world high enough that atmospheric drag and heating would be small enough to no longer be a barrier. There is no way any terrestrial based EM launcher can get away without requiring significant additional propulsion for the circulariztion burn. It isn't a matter of politics, it isn't a matter of economics, it's a matter of physics. EM launchers don't work in the real world even remotely like the ones in SF.

      Reduction of the costs of the first few kilometers is the whole point of reusable launch vehicles.

      Come on, Derek. I know you know better than that.

      WRT to EM launch facilities, given sufficient effiencies at the launch site, sufficient volume, and proper design, yes, EM launchers could at least reduce the cost to orbit. Of course, Heinlein didn't foresee some of the advances in technology that would make things like space elevators possible.
      What Robert said about the politics and economics of EM launch facilities in The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress still stand; if anything, they are more true now then they were then.
      His technology was a bit off - the proper way to use it now would be be with reusable boosters for orbital insertion that are given the initial boost to orbit from ground based launching systems; but he wasn't that far off.

      WRT to atmospheric heating problems; we've designed systems to deal with that - we did that back in the early days of the Apollo programs, and the same engineering is what brings the shuttle back to earth. Whether you call them ablative heat shields or the more advanced space shuttle tile or bonded ceramics is irrelevant. We already know how to do it. Do you honestly think that reentry heat shields are only applicable to reentry? Come on, now.

      As to orbit burns, I believe I already addressed that.

      WRT to EM launch systems; they are not impossible; there are better solutions now, maybe; but as a brute force solution, they are workable. An EM "catapult" with rocket assistance to orbit may not be very elegant nor efficient, but it is a workable solution. There are easier ones - most X-stage to orbit solutions require a reusable "first" stage - but my thoughts are that over the lifetime of your vehicles, what would be cheaper? Think infrastructure. Build once or build many times?

      In short, I'll agree that EM launch systems are not the best way to launch payloads into LEO. They are definitely still in the running at this point, however - especially when you compare them to the costs of the shuttle. Remember that the EM launcher infrastructure will always be there, while the shuttle launch IFS won't.

      For me, however, and what has really got me pissed off, is the long term vs. short term costs.

      I think even you might agree that a longterm construction commitment to a launcher in a third world country might be economically and politically more viable right now than another r&d potential with government contractors?

      (Not even going to touch the other implications of that one)

      SB

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
  60. Here's a great idea. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $20 million in funding? How about a contest to feed the hungry on this planet. Jerks.

  61. Solar Sailing Regatta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I read one of A. C. Clarke's short story collections lately and came accross a story named "The Wind from the Sun". It describes a race around the moon done with solar sails.

    Interestingly there are a bunch of problems involved with sailing through the shadow of earth which the story explains quite nicely. Even though one may think of such a race as boring since there is no water and wind people have to deal with there are many more issues which come up with solar sailing, well if somebody goes ahead and does it.

    Here is a link: "http://www.ec-lille.fr/~u3p/textang/propha.html"

    If you search with google then you find that people at NASA have been read this story too. I just couldn't find out what they think about this particular story.

  62. Workshop on June 15-16 in DC, open to public by FleaPlus · · Score: 4, Informative

    As noted on the web page, there's the Centennial Challenges program is organizing a workshop in Washington DC on June 15-16. You can register online (please, authentic registrations only!). This sounds like an excellent opportunity to help shape history.

    Here's the blurb from the web site:

    To kickoff Centennial Challenges, NASA's new program of prize contests, NASA will host a workshop on June 15-16 in Washington, DC. The purpose of the workshop is to:

    1. Gather ideas for Challenges,
    2. Develop rules for specific Challenges and gauge competitor interest in various potential Challenges, and
    3. Promote competitor teaming.

    This workshop will be a key input into Centennial Challenges planning, helping to determine what specific Challenge competitions NASA announces in 2004 and 2005 and the rules of those competitions. All potential Centennial Challenge competitors, including interested members of industry, academia, students, and the general public, are invited to attend.

  63. What about the real reason for going to space? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You forgot 7. Ways to blow up Klingons.

  64. Re:This place is such an abonimation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no God in Soviet Russian.

  65. Here is a pretty good reference! by VernonNemitz · · Score: 2, Informative
  66. space elevator anyone? by LifesABeach · · Score: 0


    just a thought...

    i know that there is a project that's nasa funded, but reducing the turnaround time on the space elevator would allow more projects to proceed, and at a reduced gravity-well cost.

    just the design idea of using ribbon-cable, instead of a cable design solves a lot of repair issues.

  67. So not only can NASA not figure... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

    ...out how to do stuff (hence offering minimal prizes to entice other people into doing the research for them) but they now can't even decide what it is that they should even be trying to research. I find this worrying.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  68. Well, by Aggrav8d · · Score: 1

    When you get the AI sorted out, could you build me a robot doctor? Must be able to perform with >= performance to a human in the categories of:
    outpatient
    - most accurate diagnosis
    - least expensive therapy reccomendation
    - (some kind of metric for preventative therapies?)
    inpatient:
    - greatest patient survival
    - least patient recuperation time
    - least time to complete operation
    - least scarring

  69. Let the people choose by lommer · · Score: 1

    slightly OT: I would love to see an non-profit organization set up that could collect monies from anyone and allocate them to a specific prize. For example, the organization would set up a list of space-based objectives like orbiting a man for 1 week without government funding, landing a man on the moon without government funding, or putting a man in orbit around mars. People, governments, buisinesses, and organizations could then donate money to whichever goals they thought their money would be best put towards. The organization would collect these monies and hold them in trust, applying whatever interest they earned back towards whatever goal they were put towards. As well, the organization could recieve requests and set up other prizes for space-related achievements. Upon the completion of any given achievement, the organization would pay out the prize money to whichever corporation or government (if that is permitted by the prize's rules) achieved that goal. Hopefully, there would be appropriate media hype of the event complete with recognition of the major donors to the prize.

    This would be a long term project, and there would presumably be hundreds of prizes that people could donate to. As time goes on, each prize would grow larger with interest and donations - becoming more attractive until it is finally achieved. Prizes for second place could even be set up and if people think that they would encourage competition, they would donate to them too. As well, I see these prizes as something that governments could hopefully be persuaded to contribute to, as I predict many people would have nationality based prizes (i.e. prizes that are only open to american or japanese companies/citizens/teams).

    Finally, it is worth noting that while you might end up with an enourmous amount of really low-value prizes, one could presumably collect multiple prizes with one mission. For example, it's not hard to imagine one mission qualifying for an orbit of mars, a human landing on mars, a sample return from mars, an surface exploration of mars' poles, and some space-habitation-endurance prizes.

    I dunno how well this would work, I just think it sounds like the best way to get private companies involved in space while still ensuring that some actual science gets done. I also think it would be totally cool if I could donate $50 of my next paycheck to the quest for a semi-permanent lunar base.

  70. Space net by im+a+fucking+coward · · Score: 1

    It's time to deploy routing and switching throughout the solar plain of eclipse so there's no such thing as a communications blackout when something as minor as a solar mass maneuvers between earth and the objective. Then it's time to deploy the nuclear powered web cams so we have live feed from every body cool enough not to melt the chasis. (Obviously it'd be better to deploy useful tools capable of testing and measurement, but people eat up eye candy and will support NASAs deployment.)

    Smaller is better so we can launch 10's of thousands, and not sweat a few lost/malfunctioning units.

  71. Nice try, Hal... by Target+Practice · · Score: 1

    Artificial intelligence would enhance them all.

    Uh huh. Shall we get back to our chess game?

    --
    There's a 68.71% chance you're right.
  72. The nuclear afterburner, as envisioned. by Myself · · Score: 1

    Not into a chamber, since containing Little Boy in the back of a rocket would be a bit tricky. Simply firing the material into space behind the rocket should be fine. The trick is firing it accurately enough to actually get a supercritical mass back there.

    Imagine Archimedes directing the soldiers to each focus the reflection from his shield on the ship far offshore. Now imagine that they're all holding superaccurate machine guns, each loaded with a belt of refined uranium ammunition. When good ol' Archie gives the order to fire, streams of uranium cruise toward a point. Since the soldiers have impeccable aim, the first few rounds all spend an instant very close to each other. Neutrons do their thing, fission starts, and a few microseconds later, you have Hiroshima in midair.

    Now, our intrepid soldiers are somehow able to keep their aim steady despite the flash and shockwave, and the rounds fly straight and true despite the blast. The soldiers keep the triggers held down, each gun dutifully hurling its belt full of fuel into the center of the nuclear fire.

    The reaction continues and instead of a single shockwave, the area is subjected to a steady, sustained force comparable to the instantaneous pressure at ground zero during a regular blast.

    Now, arrange all these soldiers in a ring around the back of a rocket and have them fire into space. Wave hi to the Alpha Centaurians as you whiz past.

    1. Re:The nuclear afterburner, as envisioned. by lommer · · Score: 1

      cool analogy. And I really like the concept. call me cynical, but I still don't think we'll see it in our lifetimes.

      The biggest problem I can think of is that this engine would have to be developed entirely on paper, and then it would have to work right the first time it launched. There's no way to test it standing still unless you can figure out a way to contain this continous hiroshima...

  73. Teleportation -- do it by Atario · · Score: 1

    You heard me.

    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
  74. Robot Factory Challenge by grondak · · Score: 1

    So we read things like, "And in the Future, there will be robot factories that turn moon dust into fuel!" So who's up for building the first?

    Here is a stab at requirements:
    The money goes to the first team that builds a robot factory to convert moon dust to blocks of moon dust suitable for construction.
    1. Internally powered
    2. Acquires its own input material (lunar soil, lunar water, etc)
    3. Shoots out enough 20cm x 10cm x 5cm solid moon bricks in a week to build a 4m x 3m x 2.5m moon brick building. Bricks should last 20 years in the lunar sun.
    4. Stacks the resulting blocks for easy transport
    5. Capable of unattended operation for up to 2 weeks (essentially at least a 2-week system-wide MTBF)
    6. Not made of Lego Mindstorms.
    7. You can turn it off
    8. Substitute plain dirt on Earth for testing (or another suitable soil)

    Requirement 2 will be fun! This is the digging part, yummy! And item 4 implies the factory can build a staging area. The robot factory might consider local resource exhaustion as a reason to mark the current brick dump and relocate the whole factory 500m away.

    If such factories really exist or are in the making, please help me and reply with a URL?

    Stupidly,

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    [Error 407: No signature found]
  75. MSNBC article: NASA plans contests for space feats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MSNBC has an excellent article by Alan Boyle: NASA plans contests for space feats Excerpt: "The June 15-16 workshop in Washington will focus on drawing up NASA's first batch of "Centennial Challenges" -- government-funded competitions that would encourage non-governmental teams to develop technologies vital to NASA's exploration initiative. For example, a better astronaut glove might earn its developers $1 million, while the first team to put a privately funded lander on the moon could win $20 million."

  76. Adopt the Darwin Awards by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    nuf sed

  77. Prize Ideas: by rofthorax · · Score: 1

    1. Mock up that balloon lander, drop people from helicopters over one of the fourteeners in Colorado.

    2. How about your very own mini mars lander remote control buggy, with stereo vision and Centrino enabled P4 to send back video signal.

    3. Control the mars lander for 10 seconds.

    4. Send your stuffed toys into orbit, with and hours worth of coverage on NASA TV. It should at least more interesting that what normally gets broadcasted.

    --
    Just say no to license servers!!