Slashdot Mirror
What's Being Done About Nuclear Security
KrisCowboy writes "Wired.com has an interesting article about Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham's speech about the defensive measures being taken at the Nuclear Energy warehouses. 'Atomic storehouses, vulnerable to terrorist attack, will be emptied of their radioactive loads,' he promises. Keeping in mind the recent Slashdot story about a
Hafnium bomb, more security measures are needed, and fast."
'Atomic storehouses, vulnerable to terrorist attack, will be emptied of their radioactive loads,'
Hmph, to put it where exactly?
"Come on, let's go drink till we can't feel feelings anymore."
Microsoft is probably pushing for the data contract, so the fate of the world will rest in his hands once and for all.
You are about to give someone a piece of your mind, something which you can ill afford...
[b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
"nuclear security"
Atomic weapons storage being centralized will probably increase rather than decrease risk of terrorism.
Atomic storehouses, vulnerable to terrorist attack, will be emptied of their radioactive loads ... and transported thousands of miles across America's vulnerable road system, which are vulnerable to terrorist attack.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Keeping in mind the recent Slashdot story about a Hafnium bomb, more security measures are needed, and fast
Talk about going off-topic. Isotope bombs, which are not even feasible at this point and require a pretty massive technological base to even think about playing with, really aren't what we should be worried about regarding storage of nuclear research materials. In fact, I'd say the nuclear materials and research inside the US are probably better locked-down than just about anywhere else.
Hell, the most-likely nuclear terrorism scenario in my estimation is someone purchasing a radiation-therapy machine and randomly zapping people with lethal doses from inside a truck-mounted setup. Given a cool million to purchase some used medical equipment, you don't even need to try to steal nuclear material from federal facilities.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
What are the other nuclear powers doing?
To the powers that be in: China; France; India; Israel; Pakistan; Russia; The United Kingdom; and the United States.
What else are you doing to prevent the unthinkable happening?
A serious question to which the rest of the world expects a serious answer.
Well you can't launch model rockets now without a permit because of "national security". You can't use a computer because of "intellectual property". From libertarian we come, to libertarian we'll come back! Soon we'll listen to the latest audio files on our computer while tinkering with the latest thing that makes a big boom.
-I am an elective eunuch.
All this stuff about 'securing our nuclear stockpiles' is so much hogwash. The stockpiles are pretty secure as it is, it would take more than just a few guys with guns to get to anything that's bomb grade. IN THE US. The really dangerous stockpiles are the ones that have little or no oversight at all or where oversight was only added after the horse already left the barn. Countries like, but not neccesarily limited to Pakistan, Iran, former USSR, India and so on are far more of a risk in this respect than the US. In Africa there are natural nuclear reactors where the 'yellowcake' can be dug up by a bunch of determined guys with shovels and a lack of desire to live. It wouldn't take a whole lot to pack a container full of this stuff, a timing mechanism and a bunch of diesel for a very large dirty bomb that can be set of by remote in a shipping yard or so. Not that it would kill a lot of people, but it could shut down a major harbour for a long long time. Of course the countries that are most likely to be at risk are also partners in the so called war on terrorism so we can't really offend them. And when that islamic coup happens in Pakistan (anybody have any odds on that ?) it will be *far* too late to get moving. Nuclear proliferation has gone way too far to put the genie back in the bottle unless there will be a genuine international effort to round up *ALL* the fissionable material (including that in the US) and to place it under international (UN) oversight. The current reasoning seems to be that only 'democratic' countries can have it, unless you manage to join the nuclear club in secret because then you become untouchable. And those are the real weapons of mass distruction we're talking about, not some imagined gas cannisters or non existant Iraqi bombs...
MP3 Search Engine
Everybody should have one. Then we'd all be safe.
Vote Quimby!
Since nuclear weaponry became the status symbol for any modern nation, around 50 nukes have went "missing". 8 being from the usa and the rest from russia. That kinda scares me more than ppl stealing one!
At the rate we're going, the whole world will end up much like THIS if we're not careful :P
Join the TWIT army now!
"Isotope bombs, which are not even feasible at this point and require a pretty massive technological base "
I do believe isotope bombs are quite feasible indeed. It is the isoMER bomb which I posted a story on that is now in question. Nuclear isotopes contain varying numbers of neutrons with identical numbers of protons in the nucleus. Nuclear ISOMERS contain the same of both but have excitiations of the spins of the nucleons' constituant neutrons and protons.
- "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
Isotope bombs, which are not even feasible at this point and require a pretty massive technological base to even think about playing with
A few years ago, someone said "650KB ought to be enough for anybody" (for off-topic discussion, see more of this here). We are now in an age where sending stuff to mars is about to become a routine exercise to the governments. So, we are not far away from building a golfball-sized hafnium bomb that would cause rather devastating effects. It's time for all the nuclear-powers to wake up and do something about it.
In fact, I'd say the nuclear materials and research inside the US are probably better locked-down than just about anywhere else.
Correct, but there's no other nation close enough to become a super-power comparable to US. Buildings are just as tall in the rest of the world, but why those twin towers in NYC? US has the power to start a nuclear war and it is still the number 1 target for many terrorist organizations. Prevention is better than cure, buddy.
It's not off-topic... as long as the topic is "irrational fears"
Nuculure. Use some strategery, morans.
No matter how much you do, some fraction of your vital infrastructure will always be vulnerable to a sufficiently powerful and well-organised attack. If you protected every critical piece of infrastructure in a country -- all the power stations, water supplies, transport routes, government hubs, etc. -- then you'd expend far more resources than are practical on security, and having so many people in the system would cause weak links anyway.
Ultimately, you can't prevent an unknown enemy from committing an unknown act forever. All you can do is your best to stop it (and that's better done starting from intelligence rather than raw defensive power at every vulnerable point) and your best to clean up the mess (e.g., by having back-up generators in key places like hospitals in case the power does go out).
A more serious question that I'd pose, given the above harsh-but-true assessment, is how much could quality of life in general be improved if all the resources being diverted in the name of "fighting terrorism" were invested in hospitals, schools, etc. in the first place.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Some time ago, post september 11th, the Nuclear Regulatory commission decreed that the security at nuclear power plants was not enough, and that it should be increased.
Ok, that's all well and fine, as much as I hate the nanny state, that's what they're there for, and we have to deal with it.
So, these security upgrades, required by the NRC if we are to continue generating nuclear power, where initially scheduled to be done by this coming october.
This was a reasonable timeframe at the initial order.
Except every month or two, they'd increase or change the theoretical attack our security would have to be able to repel.
And then never move the completion date back to allow time to make adjustments for their continual meddling.
So now, at my plant, we have a huge security capital project that needs to be done in 5 months, because the NRC just finished up their requirements, finally, two months ago. The engineering and construction firms obviously need time to design a system to meet the NRC standards, and prepare for it's construction.
So basically we're spending 15 million dollars on a rush job because the NRC has no fucking clue how businesses work, and allow no time adjustment for their indecision.
And the funny part is that even if a team of terrorists got past our already substantial security (both physical and personell), they'd have no fucking clue how to cause any damage that would extend beyond the plant or spread radiation to the public- figuring out such a thing requires years of studying the plant's most intimate workings.
Fuckin NRC.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
It's only a matter of time before someone in the government claims that the rationale for maintaining a stockpile of nuclear weapons is to provide us with a deterrent against terrorists who might steal weapons from that stockpile and use them against us.
When an unstable country is allows to have a nuclear bomb factory.
Hell, the most-likely nuclear terrorism scenario in my estimation is someone purchasing a radiation-therapy machine and randomly zapping people with lethal doses from inside a truck-mounted setup. Given a cool million to purchase some used medical equipment, you don't even need to try to steal nuclear material from federal facilities.
It's worse that you think. A number of years ago (maybe 10 to 20?), the radiation detectors at Los Alamos went off when a delivery of patio furniture passed by. Turns out the cast iron in the furniture contained Cobalt-60. Tracing the shipment back, they found that the furniture had been made in Mexico from scrap metal. Someone in Mexico had sold a radiation therapy machine as scrap.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
"Keeping in mind the recent Slashdot story about a Hafnium bomb, more security measures are needed, and fast."
I don't know where to begin with this. We should be more afraid because of technology we don't even have yet (and may never have) might get into the hands of terrorists? Do they have some massive R&D lab hidden in the mountains near Pakistan? And what does a theoretical isotope bomb have to do with our current nuclear stockpile?
Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
... why not look up all the worlds scissors, because you know just how dangerous they are.
I mean seriously though, how long are we going to let this go on for? It's like chicken little and the sky is falling! All these defensives measures and security procedures aren't going to do J@*# $#!% to stop terrorism or nuclear proliferation. All it's going to do is scare people and cause taxes to go up in order to pay for personal, equipment, etc... Oh and lets not for get the amount our 'elected' officials skim off the top.
Seems like they're changing tactics
There was Police vans, motorbikes, some sort of 40 foot mobile office and a breakdown truck with the convoy of Nukes that went past my house yesterday.
The last police vehicle had a flashing sign "No Overtaking"
I like the particular link you chose to illustrate your point. Fighting pseudoscience with conspiracy theories. Good job.
No need to steal anything. A Big Bang in the storage facility would shut it down for many, many years. If you're after terror this would be pretty effective, especially if coupled with a DDOS, or even more dangerous, hack attack against the major financial/news sites. If you could manage to blow something up in Navada with the wind blowing towards Las Vagas you could cause a pretty large panic. In fact, you wouldn't even need to cause an explosion, a War of the Worlds type of incident caused by disrupting communications and planting false stories would work just as well.
oops!! mea culpa! That site is rather preposterous, sorry! I merely looked for a site showing an isotope separation facility and didn't read the rest of the site. Here is something right more respectable I think.
- "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
"Its pronounced 'nukular', Lisa; 'nukular'..."
My family and I were on vacation in the north-eastern United States a couple of years back. My dad wanted to check out the Three Mile Island vistor center, as he's a bionuclear physicist and is really geeked up over that kind of a thing. We had one of those Hertz rental cars with the GPS helper, so we checked and the visitor center was on there, so we told it to take us there. We pulled in where it told us to, into a street that wasn't much bigger than a driveway. Within a matter of moments we were boxed in by a few Humvees (not the street-legal models, the big should-have-treads things), and have guns pointed at us from all around. We're told very persistantly to slowly get out of the car and put our hands on the hood. We did so, they took our pictures, ran our fingerprints, called in two trucks full of troops to help the obviously overpowered platoon that was trying to keep a family of four under tight watch. Safeties were off, we were potential enemies. After an hour or so (and a search of us and the car) they let us go, told us to never came back, but were nice enough to point us in the direction of the -real- visitor's center. It was closed for the day -_-.
Save us all from the terrorist!
n t/2841377.stm
Meanwhile go on and make more bombs Israel, that's OK with U.S.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/corresponde
The Pentagon and WTC all have no-fly-zones, and look how that went... If no-one cares that several big passenger planes takes a 180 mid-flight and heads straight for said no-fly-zone with the transponder off and no radio contact, how can we (or _you_ since I don't live in the US) expect that a small Cessna or similar plane flying below radar coverage, carrying a small bomb, won't make it to it's destination? A nice destination would be the spent-fuel rod storage facilities at Indian Point or another plant... Blowing the wall up, releasing the water. Instant overheating and subsequent fire, which would last a long time and contaminate a rather large area, possibly killing tens of thousands of people.
Achille Talon
Hop!
Remeber the single engine plane crash into a skyscraper in Florida?
It didn't do that much damage. Those things are light. So you add a bomb, lets say you load it overweight, against how many feet of steel reinforced concrete?
Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
Water is going to act as a great shield for the gamma and alpha rays coming from U-235. Try googling for a waterproof geiger counter. There's a reason why the bomb hasn't been found yet.
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
Latest cryptome item is Eyeballing Los Alamos National Laboratory.
MODERATORS - Some of you are definately cretins.
The material that in not being properly guarded in NOT lowlevel waste. It is highly-enriched, bomb-grade uranium. Something like 400 metric tons in Oak Ridge (Y12) alone. It does not take a genius to detonate this material. It doesn't even require an implosion. The uranium bomb (little boy) droped on Japan in WWII was a gun assembly weapon. It fired a conical bullet of enriched uranium down a six foot barrel and into a target with a matching hole. It worked quite nicely. Anyone with a few 10 pound blocks of this stuff can build a bomb. The only safe thing to do with it is dilute it back to less than a few percent u235.
I see a lot of Americans accusing Iran, Russia, and Pakistan of not adequately guarding their nuclear materials adequately. But what about the nuclear facilities in Iraq, which are apparently being left unguarded altogether by the American occupation forces? And consequently, what about the American justification for the invasion of Iraq as preventing these materials being transferred to terrorists?
Friends were boating in a southern state a month ago, not far from an active nuclear power plant. The weather turned nasty. Then the boat hit a rock. They had to beach the boat... on unfenced power plant property. Not a soul was around. No one came to greet them. They could have stayed longer and had a hot snack (microwaving not required).
Homeland Insecurity is doing a good job of keeping nail clippers off of airplanes, but the agency doesn't seem at all concerned about unauthorized access to nuclear power plants. I guess this is not too surprising, considering that Ridge is in charge. Well, maybe 'in charge' is the wrong term.
The most important thing we could do about nuclear security is to educate the public on the real dangers of nuclear radiation. Radiation in large doses is dangerous. The most likely dirty bombs will not result in large doses, but mass panic. The panic will be far more dangerous than the radiation in most cases. I work with radioactive material for a living. I don't know the ins and outs of a Hafnium Bomb, but I know that once the radioactive material is dispersed by an explosion, it starts being less of a hazard immediately. Panic is the most dangerous aspect for those not in the immediate vicinity of any detonation. Increased security is important, but it is harder to wreak terror in an informed group. email me at raymeyers13@mac.com
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
We can start with unarming 1000 US nuclear warheads, just lying around. The self appointed world cops need to step down. We don't need bullies.
Shame on you USA, trying to tell other countries what to do when you yourself amass tonnes of nuclear weapons! Hypocrites! No wonder the world hates you...
In a 1946 essay entitled "You and the Atom Bomb," George Orwell wrote:
...Had the atomic bomb turned out to be something as cheap and easily manufactured as a bicycle or an alarm clock, it might well have plunged us back into barbarism, but it might, on the other hand, have meant the end of national sovereignty and of the highly-centralized police state. If, as seems to be the case, it is a rare and costly object as difficult to produce as a battleship, it is likelier to put an end to large-scale wars at the cost of prolonging indefinitely a 'peace that is no peace.'"
Considering how likely we all are to be blown to pieces by it within the next five years, the atomic bomb has not roused so much discussion as might have been expected. The newspapers have published numerous diagrams, not very helpful to the average man, of protons and neutrons doing their stuff.... But curiously little has been said, at any rate, in print, about the question that is of most urgent interest to all of us, namely, "How difficult are these things to manufacture?"
George Orwell,Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters, vol 4, item #2
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Well, despite DOE regulations security sucks at privately owned Nuke Plants. Take for example the missing fuel rods from Vermont Yankee ( http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/04/21/nuclear .fuel.missing.ap/ )
I don't somehow think that a government facility will be any safer. . .
I think the whole lot of them are completely incompetent. . .
.. I knew this wasn't about Shrub before even getting to the end of the post..
Shrub didn't cut taxes. He RE-ARRANGED them. Take a looksee and tell me you paid less taxes when you add up your:
Federal Income
FICA
FUTA
State
Local
I bet you paid MORE, unless you're a billionaire!
Sending stuff to Mars is hardly routine, it costs a billion dollars and only works right about a third of the time. And as for your hafnium bombs, I wouldn't lose too much sleep since the physical effect they depend on seems to be irreproducible. You worry too much, man.
...wearing a skin-tight topless leather jumpsuit, with cutaway buttocks and transparent crotch panel.
Hafnium powered engine for this airplane.
If people are working on making usable power-plants from hafnium, it's not as far off as you think it is. Remember how much easier it is to build a fusion bomb than a fusion power plant.
Just because the work's classified doesn't mean it's not out of the reach of terrorists (think the Anthrax attacks)
bureaucrat2: can't tell Utah that we're putting dangerous stuff there - tell them it's a replacement for Fort Knox
bureaucrat1: Hey - I love it!
time passes - large, iron clad, secure bunker-style building with lots of military and police all around is built in Lindon. Stuff starts arriving from all over and put inside
bureaucrat1: now it's all in one place, we can rest easy.
radiation engineer1: They did what?!!!
radiation engineer2: Yup - and the temperature in Lindon is rising rapidly - put all that stuff together and you get lots of interaction - I'm getting out of here
rad eng1: me too - by!
news anchor: bulletin from Utah - Lindon has been wiped off the map by something that people in Las Vegas describe as a mushroom cloud. IBM lawyers cheer and Linus says "I knew SCO would self-destruct, but I had absolutely no idea they would do it so well"
Been there, done that, paid for the T-shirt
and didn't get it
Sounds like someone talking about their balls.