The Logic Behind Metric Paper Sizes

Oily Pakora writes "Those of us in the United States are so used to our Letter and Legal paper sizes. We've seen the A4 paper size option in our printer trays and in printer preference menus. Metric sizes used almost everywhere in the world, save for the US and Canada. Here is an interesting article that discusses all of the aspects of metric paper. For those who enjoy a bit of math, did you know that in the Metric paper system, the height-to-width ratio of all pages is the square root of 2? This means that you can place two sheets of A4 side-by-side and they will equal an A3 sheet exactly, and two sheets of A3 will equal an A2."

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2 x A4 = A3

[Anonymous Coward]

News?

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[Leffe]

Not at all, I thought everyone knew this... I don't live in America though...

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[hpa]

A0 paper is one square meter.

A4 paper is 2^-4 = 1/16 square meter.

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[boaworm]

This whole thing reminds me of a thing Jerry Seinfeld did, making fun of chinese people eating with sticks. He said something about that he could not understand why they kept eating with sticks, since "they have seen the fork".

It feels just like that hearing about "US Letter", Yards, Pounds, Stones, Miles et al. YOU HAVE SEEN THE METRIC SYSTEM ;-)!

(btw, thanks France!)

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[chris_mahan]

a square meter. a square meter is the base of a cube meter. The cube meter is the volume of one ton of fresh water at sea level at the equator at zero degrees Celcius. 1 ton is 1000 kilo gram. each kilo gram is thus 10cm*10cm*10cm, which happens to also be a liter. 1 gram is 1 millionth of a ton, of 1cm*1cm*1cm. so if a bottle of water is 1000 grams (1 kilo gram), it is also 1 liter. So now I know the volume, the weight, and the measurement of the container. Pretty nifty no?
Density is expressed in a ratio from fresh water at zero degrees at sea level at the equator. Let's say the density of velveta cheese is 1.001. With this, I could tell you the size of a kilo of velveeta, and how large a container to use, and thus how much paper to use to wrap it in. Then I could express this in how many per A0, A1, or A2, since they are derived from the meter. Get it?

Class dismissed.

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[Phisbut]

Cold salt water is -18 Celcius. Inside of your mouth is +36 Celcius. Make those marks on a piece of paper with whatever you're using (assuming you have the tools to make a thermometer), and fold in half (five times over if you can). You'll now have a thermometer with nice floating point numbers where the folds are two-ninths of a degree each.

Not a *whole* lot more complicated when you're good in math ;-)

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[jorlando]

I can use the same cold salt water, inside my mout is 36 fold it six times and have the same (lack of) precision in Celsius... so???

The Celsius scale was created using certaind standards: water, level sea.

proceding: measure the temperature when the water is freezing and call taht 0 degrees

measure the water again when it's boiling. let's call that point 100 degrees

divide with evenly spaced scales these two points in the termometer.

AFAIR the Farenheit scale was made the same way, the 0 being the freezing point of water and some salt and the 212 point water boiling. but the distance betwenn the water (without salt) freezing and boiling should be separated by 180 points

every scale is arbitrary. the only absolute is the measurement, that must be consistent among different scales. the resources to build a scale are the same, be it F, C, K or some funny scale that you seem fit for your purposes.

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[huchida]

This whole thing reminds me of a thing Jerry Seinfeld did, making fun of chinese people eating with sticks. He said something about that he could not understand why they kept eating with sticks, since "they have seen the fork".

I wonder why Westerners insist on using both a fork and spoon to eat after they've seen the Spork.

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[sl70]

My wife, who is Japanese, pointed out a VERY good use of chopsticks: for picking dropped objects like screws from the inside of computer cases (when your hand won't fit inside).
--

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[Anonymous Coward]

Cold salt water is 0 degrees. Inside of your mouth is 96. Make those marks on a piece of paper with whatever you're using (assuming you have the tools to make a thermomemter), and fold it in half (five times over if you can). You'll now have a thermometer with nice whole numbers where the folds are (0, 3, 6...)

In the highly inprobable case I needed a thermometer on a desert island, I would need a narow glass tube that is equally wide throughout the whole length. Ok, now assume the even more improbable case that I had this tube.

I can measure the temperature of cold non-salty water and mark a 0 (after all you HAVE to have some non-salty water with you, or else any thermometer won't save your life). I can measure my body temperature and mark 36.3 (it's 36.7, but to hell with precision). Now I'll fold the paper 10 times and get 3.63 C-grades. Add one of these 3.63 to the whole 36.3 scale, make a mark and write 40 there (36.3 + 3.63 = cca 39.93). Take the scale from 0 to 39.93, fold it four times, then each part 10 times and you get 1C. Done.

Now, this is clearly somewhat more complex then yout Fahrenheit case. So be it, each time you have to recreate a C thermometer on a desert island (with sand, a palm and a convenient glass tube), it will take you a few minutes longer. On the other hand, NOT using the metric system means that you have to convert feet to inches to yards to betelgeusian miles almost every time you add two lengths together. Now I find it more convenient for a system of measurements to be optimised for the latter case, but perhaps I just do not shipwreck as often as you do.

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[honkycat]

Go to your nearest outdoor store and if you're lucky you can find the wondrous eating implement that is the Titanium Spork! I never leave home without mine...

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[jrq]

I thought not being on the metric system had already cost many millions of dollars, in destroyed Mars probes.

Re:2 x A4 = A3

[perky]

We don't give a shit.
On the contrary - you've spent over 100 billion dollars in the last year showing just how much you hate other people doing things differently.

;)

It's articles like this

[Anonymous Coward]

That make me happy my rolling paper is not metric
-B

Re:It's articles like this

[justforaday]

That make me happy my rolling paper is not metric

oh, i dunno...can't say i'd mind something rolled with a sheet of A0... @_@

Side-by-sideness

[TyrelHaveman]

You can also put two 8.5x11 (Letter) sheets of paper side by side and it equals an 11x17 (Tabloid) sheet of paper...

Re:Side-by-sideness

[N1RCV]

In the engineering world (in USA). Letter size is A size. Tabloid is B size. 2 B sizes (22x17) is C size. And 24x36 is D size.

Re:Side-by-sideness

[salzbrot]

That is true, but the 8.5 x 11 has a width-length ratio of about 1.29, whereas the 11 x 17 has a ratio of 1.54. A sheet of 17 x 22 again has the ratio of 1.29 and so on.

The DIN A formats all have the ratio of square root 2. That makes it very easy to scale stuff up or down, e.g. if you use a copy machine: copy 2 DIN A4 (= DIN A3) on one DIN A4 without messing up the margins. Cut the sheet in half and you have 2 DIN A5 pages that exactly look like the DIN A4 pages, only half the size.

Re:Side-by-sideness

[SSpade]

But 11x17 is not the same shape as 8 1/2x11.

That's the real beauty of A4/A3 etc. All the sizes in a given series (A00, A0, A1, A2, A3, A4, A5... or B1, B2, B3...) are the same shape.

So you can photocopy an A4 document onto A3 paper expanding it by the right proportion and it'll fit perfectly. And you can copy two A4 documents onto A3 paper and it'll fit perfectly. Or use psnup to put A4 formatted documents reduced to 2-up on A4 paper with no wasted space.

Try that with letter or legal size....

Re:Side-by-sideness

[srussell]

Yes, but the metric system is designed so that this ratio applies all the way from the smallest size up to the largest. So, two A4 is one A3, two A3 is one A2, two A2 is one A1.

Putting them side-by-side isn't as interesting as cutting them in half, though. I discovered this when I started printing photos from my inkjet. Photo paper is generally available in the stores in limited sizes. I can buy a bunch of A4, and cut it in half, and I have two A5s. Do it again, and I have A6s, which is nearly a 4x6. Best of all, these paper sizes are all standard, which is good, because my printer doesn't like me to define my own paper sizes. With the American system, I have to measure and cut, which is more difficult.

When you discuss the advantages of metric, it really is about convenience[1]. There's nothing that you can do with metric that you can't with the English system; it is just, generally, more difficult to do with the English system. If you don't care about convenience, and you live in the USA, then you probably don't have any reason to use metric.

[1] Of course, using metric in the US imposes a certain amount of inconvenience from compatability issues, but that's another argument.

Re:Side-by-sideness

[barawn]

When you discuss the advantages of metric, it really is about convenience[1]. There's nothing that you can do with metric that you can't with the English system; it is just, generally, more difficult to do with the English system. If you don't care about convenience, and you live in the USA, then you probably don't have any reason to use metric.

That's not quite true - one of the reasons that the Imperial system is moderately convenient for building is that base 12 is divisible by 2,3,4 and 6, so you'll encounter less rounding error if you need to split things up into common numbers. Base 10 is only divisible by 2 and 5. (Incidentally, this is of course why one of the older civilizations used base 60 - it's divisible by 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, and it's the reason we have 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour).

So, for instance, if you want to break a 1' object into thirds, you can do it exactly. Try doing it with meters - it's 33 and a third centimeters. Most people would say "screw it, it's 333 mm" - but if you now take those "1/3 m" sticks and put 300 of them end to end, you don't have 100 m - you have 99.9 m, and you're a full ten centimeters short. In imperial, 1/3 of a yard is 1 foot. No rounding errors.

There really *are* advantages to the Imperial system - most people, however, simply assume that Imperial sucks and leave it at that.

Metric paper, however, is better designed than US. Being able to print 2 A4 on 1 without much work really kicks.

Re:Side-by-sideness

[plam]

Wow. That will really come in handy when I want to expand my thesis to poster size.

Oh wait. That will never happen.

Expand? No. But perhaps someone wants to copy your thesis 2-up, and that's a lot easier with metric sizes.

Re:Side-by-sideness

[ajs]

Also, if you take 3 8.5x11 sheets, line them up along their longer sides, attach them to eachother, put a staple through the middle of the first and second sheet join and then hang them from a height of approximately eye-level it makes the idea place for a picture of a naked "girl next door".

My buddy Heff taught me that trick.

Re:Side-by-sideness

[SamSim]

I would have infinitely greater respect for the Imperial system if all of it did indeed work in twelves, like with feet and inches. But inches are not divided into twelfths but sixteenths. Then there are three feet in a yard, 5.5 yards in a rod, 40 rods in a furlong, 8 furlongs (or a nice round 1760 yards) in a mile. 16 ounces in a pound, 14 pounds in a stone, 2000 pounds in a ton. Don't get me started on liquid measure. And ultimately, you have to measure so closely that you *have* to use decimal places of the smallest unit (like 11.6 inches or whatever) - which means tens all round.

Remind me again what makes it easier to use?

Just go with tens. Tens are simple.

Re:Psst.

[StrawberryFrog]

Come-on really, Do I want to measure a piece of paper using the square root of two?

No, but it's very pleasant that an A3 page folded in half is exactly the same size as an A4 page. root-two is just the mathematical means to that end.

Obligatory

[swordboy]

PC Load Letter!? WTF does that mean?!

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[Anonymous Coward]

That joke is in the title. From the "forty-rods-to-the-hogshead department."

Audi A4

[Anonymous Coward]

There's also an Audi A4, and if you put two of those side by side, people say "Look, isn't that a coincidence".

Re:Audi A4

[Golias]

Two Mini Coopers side by side == One Audi A4
Two Audis == One BAM ("Big Assed Mercedes")
Two Mercedes == One average European house.

Wow, those Europeans can apply simple metric system math to everything!

Meanwhile, in America:
Two Mini Coopers side by side == One speed bump for a Hummer H2.
Two Audis in the driveway == A good house to break into.
Two Mercedes == Really, really tacky.
Two Hummers == The energy consumption of a typical third-world country
Two thrid world countries == A re-unified Germany. (I keed!)

Yet another reason for the US to switch to metric

[miketang16]

We claim to be one of the most scientifically advanced countries in the world, but we can't adopt a useful standard that the _rest_ of the scientific community uses. Seriously, what is the problem with metric? I find it so much easier to use than the English system. Our government should at least make the attempt to switch over.

The Metric System Sucks!!

[USAPatriot]

I am of the firm belief that the metric system sucks. It is a global conspiracy created to cause the downfall of all things that we know and love. Upon careful examination it is clear that the metric system is at least indirectly responsible for most of the world's problems, including but not limited to:

* Government conspiracy
* Microsoft Windows
* Rap Music
* Hondas and their drivers
* Transistors
* Pokemon
* Jerry Springer
* Televangelism
* Toxic waste
* The Republicans
* The Democrats
* Defective and bogus hardware
* Wrenches that dont fit
* Starbucks coffee
* Communism
* Soccer
* The Euro

Re:The Metric System Sucks!!

[Night Goat]

Way to plagiarize, buddy.
http://www.metricsucks.com

At least cite your sources if you're going to pass off others' humor as your own.

It's official...

[Your_Mom]

I can't deny it anymore.

I just read an article on metric pages and found it incredibly intresting.

At one point I said "Wow, Cool"

I think I've gone beyond 'geek'.

I feel dirty.

Re:It's official...

[PaschalNee]

I feel dirty.
Luckily you can clean yourself up while being compliant to the standard!

In some countries (e.g., Germany) even many brands of toilet paper have format A6.

Pulp Numerology

[Bingo Foo]

Hey, if pulp numerology is your thing, look here.

Mod parent up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez, must be a slow day. I'll go search the net for something that was new 30 years ago and post it on Slashdot!

If you enjoy math..

[teamhasnoi]

remember that two 8 1/2 x 11 sheets equal an 11 x 17 sheet and four 4 x 5 cards can fit on a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. A ream of paper is 500 sheets and if you divide that by two, you get 250 sheets which really means nothing; I needed two extra facts for my post about math.

More usefully...

[MartinG]

you can place two sheets of A4 side-by-side and they will equal an A3 sheet exactly,

More usefully, you can fold an a4 piece of paper in half and it will fit nicely in an a5 envelope.

Re:More usefully...

[srleffler]

you can fold an a4 piece of paper in half and it will fit nicely in an a5 envelope.

Not quite. The envelope would be exactly the same size as the folded paper, which would be too tight a fit. The A4 paper folded in half fits beautifully into a C5 envelope, however, and if you fold it in half again it will fit in a C6. If you don't want to fold your document, you buy a C4 envelope. What a neat system.

Re:Oooo.... root 2!

[jdavidb]

You don't get it. It keeps going, recursively. Two A4's equal an A3, and two A3's equal an A2, and so on. The deal is that the paper is in such proportion that all A* papers are in the exact same proportion. That's not true if you double a 8 1/2 by 11. The proportion there is .77272, while the proportion for a doubled sheet, 11x17 is .647059.

I'm betting the Golden Ratio comes into A4 paper somehow; anyone want to comment?

2 x (8.5 x 11) = (11 x 17)

[MagnaMark]

This clever side-by-side feature applies to the 8.5 x 11 (letter) and 11 x 17 sizes that are quite common in the US and Canada as well.

I'm not sure about "legal" paper and the rest.

And don't worry everyone, Microsoft is aware of the problem! To quote: "The paper sizes in the United States and Canada (such as letter, legal, and so on) do not satisfy the needs of all users in the world market."

Fear not! They'll solve this problem by embracing and extending the ISO paper-size standard. The new sizes will be MS-A4, MS-A3, etc. Of couse, you will only be able to print to these pages from MS apps, but what else is there?

< / slashdot obligatory off-topic M$ bashing for karma>

the metric system is fun

[revery]

This means that you can place two sheets of A4 side-by-side and they will equal an A3 sheet exactly, and two sheets of A3 will equal an A2."

And of course, 5 sheets of almost any metric sized paper folded into origami lions will inevitably merge to form Voltron, a robot so powerful that it will usually let it's enemies kick it's butt around for a good 15 to 20 minutes before it forms the blazing sword and finishes the fight.

Yes... it's your damn fault!

[Cloud K]

For those of us living in A4-using lands, it's a real pain in the arse trying to set everything (especially in Windows) from Letter to A4! Then you think you have it susses and sure enough... "PC Load Letter" - aaargh!

Do you have any idea how much trouble and stress you've caused by making Letter the default even with UK set as the country? ;)

Re:Yes... it's your damn fault!

[Uma Thurman]

I have some idea, yes. You see, I've laid tile in the past, and one of the things you do is center the pattern on the floor, with equal sized partial tiles at the edges. This requires division of the distances by 2. It's really cumbersome to divide 34 7/8 inches by two in your head, for example.

So, I went out to get a metric tape measure. Couldn't find a single one in my tiny Texas town. Eventually, I went to the Internet (Amazon.com) to find it. I wanted to get a tape measure with just centimeters on it, but had to settle for one with both inches and centimeters.

Just so I'm never stuck without a metric tape measure again, I bought two of them. Cost me $25 apiece.

Signed, an American who loves the metric system, was scientifically trained with the metric system, and if made emperor of the universe would provide free metric system education to the population at government expense.

Re:Neat

[the MaD HuNGaRIaN]

did you get a box of 11.69" envelopes to go with that?

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[Ubergrendle]

Origin of the phrase "one for the road". In London, while on the way to the gallows, the cart would stop at each pub along the way. The criminal would be allowed a drink at every pub, almost always 'on the house' so that the soul would not come back to make due on a debt. Also, i suspect pity played a large role.

metric will win in the end

[garglblaster]

This is my personal opinion, however:

I think the metric system is like Open Source:
It's going to win in the long run -
simply because it's the logical way to go!

If you look at the evolution of things, there have always been different ways of doing stuff, but in the end one of them won - simply because it was undeniably the best way to go - and the others lost out..

Do the math, indeed

[lambent]

Square milimeters of paper:

Letter: 60322.46 mm^2 (215.9mm x 279.4mm)

A4: 62370 mm^2 (210mm × 297mm)

A4 - Letter = 2047.54, or about 3 and 3/16 square inches.

A4 is bigger.

Re:I will fight this metric paper with every OUNCE

[Frothy Walrus]

Now is that a solid ounce, a fluid ounce, or an apothecary ounce?

Re:Oooo.... root 2!

[Pxtl]

Constant aspect ratio. You don't have to remake your posters/flyers depending on what sheet you intend to print on. 11/17 != 8.5/11. It also makes shipping easier. Basically the only reason to stick with imperial measurements is inertia, as always.

Re:Aka the golden mean

[odsign]

No it's not. The golden mean is (1+sqrt(5))/2. That page you linked even says so.

Re:Just in case the server crashes and burns...

[BillyZ]

hmmm Original site must have been a vampire.. cause I don't see it in your mirror. ;o)

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[compro01]

if i remember corectly a "hogshead" is 63 gallons.

and a rod is 5.5 yards or 16.5 feets so....

damn your car is a gas guzzeler!

504 gallons to go 1 mile!

American Paper is ugly

[Potor]

I am a Canuck expat in Europe, and I grew up with 8.5x11 paper. Now, however, I shudder when I see it. A4 is so much more aesthetically pleasing to me, probably because it looks less clunky than its fatter and shorter American cousin. And, since the headline asks, I have found the scaling of the metric series to be very handy; it is easy to ask for precisely the size of paper you want.

Obligatory homer paraphrasing

[bperkins]

OOOoo! Look at me! I use the metric system!

I only know how to divide by ten!

Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr

[SkankhodBeeblebrox]

Your government did try to switch over, not once, not twice, but three times! (with limited success, according to the 2nd link)

Also according to that 2nd link,

"Federal agencies were required by this legislation, with certain exceptions, to use the metric system in their procurement, grants and other business-related activities by the end of 1992. "

Not sure what that means to a typical U.S. Citizen, but it appears the U.S. will be metric someday :)

Re:Huh?

[rnelsonee]

I can... metric is obviously heavily biased to factors of 10 - a pretty useless number as it only has a few divisors (2, which always a factor of the base/radix used, and 5). So when you want to divide your 1 meter board into 4, you're now stuck with 2.5 cm pieces. Okay, not too bad. What about dividing it by 3? A repeating decimal is now your new measurment. Bah, same with 6. If you get stuck in classes for most of your life, you probably won't care about this. But try to build a bar with a metric ruler and you'll see why these are desirable traits.

Compare that with, say, the foot. 12 inches - easily divisible by 3, 4, and 6. Makes building that shit a lot easier :)

Same goes with volumes - it's easy to convert gallons to quarts to pints. You have to memorize more units (which I agree sucks), but it makes making that recepie easier when you realize you have more guests coming.

It just works

[johnmrowe]

Whilst I appreciate people's devotion to measurements based on the toe nail of some long-dead king, what they don't seem to realise is that the "root two" system really works well in practice.

It makes it really easy to take an A4 document (the normal paper size) and print it double-size on an A3 printer or photocopier. It's equally easy to print a document two-per page (or four or whatever) or to make an A5 pamphlet by printing it two pages per sheet and folding it in half.

And nothing needs to be rescaled or reformatted.

It's one of those "once you tried it you'll never go back" IT experiences, like full-screen text editors, network graphics systems, PVRs and video projectors.

John

Re:Oooo.... root 2!

[Rupert]

Those aren't the same shape.

17 / 11 = 1.55
11 / 8.5 = 1.29

A4 paper is twice the size and the same shape as A5. A3 is twice the size and the same shape as A4. It goes up to A0, which is (ooh) 16 times bigger than A4.

Re:And this is superior why?

[Moderation abuser]

Because you can scale an A4 page down to A5 size and print two of them on each A4 sheet and they fit *exactly*. Saves paper.

If you are a *real* skinflint and have good eyes you can scale down to A6 and print double sided. It works quite well with a decent laser printer.

The reverse is true obviously if you want to scale up. You can tape (A4 usually because it's the most common) pages together to make A3, A2 and A1 sheets and it all fits together exactly.

Having said that, I kind of assumed that the same thing applied to US paper sizes. Surprised it doesn't.

Ratio Not Only Factor

[SlipJig]

The height-to-width ratio of the pages isn't solely responsible for the fact that metric pages "add up" when placed side-by-side. They also have to be the right size, and that has nothing to do with the metric system. I could design any arbitrary measurement system, and a paper standard based on it that would have the same properties.

On an unrelated note, one benefit of the English system is that measurements tend to be divisible in more ways. For example, 10 is evenly divisible by 1, 2 and 5. 12 (upon which much of the English system is based) is evenly divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6.

Not that I think that's a reason not to switch over :)

Re:Ratio Not Only Factor

[Medevo]

Yes, things like 10/3 and 10/6 are ugly and repeating, but they aren't that hard to thing about (1 or 2 thirds).

But there is always 12/9... 1 and 1/3

Metric when divided by the numbers below results in 3 whole numbers, 2 simple fractions (10/4 = 2.5), 3 nice repeating fractions, and 1 ugly fraction (10/7)

Imperial results in 5 whole numbers, 3 simple fractions, 1 nice repeating fraction, and 2 ugly fractions

While Imperial has a higher ratio of nice clean whole numbers when divided, can you tell me 12/7 or 12/11 without a calculator, 10/7? Isn't nice either but all you can really glean from this is that there will always be ugly numbers no matter what system you use.

Metric has a huge advantage with units and scientific notation, how many inches are in a light-year? With metric turning light-years into cm is a lot easier.

At the end of the day though, most of the advantages or disadvantages of using either are nullified by using technology. Creating a worldwide standard system is more important to remove issues in calculations between the two systems.

They are all relative systems as well, as long as unless one system has some "magic relationship" with nature I haven't heard of (metric is based off natural things yes, but water was a bad choice) its simply a choice and a system of standards.

Medevo

Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr

[gfxguy]

BTW the metric system sucks for times when you really do want to use fractions

Can you describe a few of these times? I'm being serious... as a novice work worker and DIY home improvement and maintenance guy, I find using mixed fractions very annoying. Yes, you get accustomed to them, but I hardly say that makes it acceptable (hey, people get accustomed to Windows crashing, and find it acceptable to have to reboot or reinstall - I'm not one of them).

Besides, it's not like you can't use fraction in metrics, either - so you say 1/2 cm instead of 5 mm, if it floats your boat.

Bah.

[Anonymous Coward]

My car is a jet dragster, you insensitive clod!

Just as Interesting

[Momomoto]

It's frightening how well they've thought out things like this. From the article:

Technical drawing pens follow the same size-ratio principle. The standard sizes differ by a factor sqrt(2): 2.00 mm, 1.40 mm, 1.00 mm, 0.70 mm, 0.50 mm, 0.35 mm, 0.25 mm, 0.18 mm, 0.13 mm. So after drawing with a 0.35 mm pen on A3 paper and reducing it to A4, you can continue with the 0.25 mm pen. (ISO 9175-1)

Call me an incorrigible geek, but that little tidbit made me giddy.

Re:I will fight this metric paper with every OUNCE

[ColourlessGreenIdeas]

An ounce is defined as the maximum weight that can be carried by 1 swallow.

I love it. It helped me get more points on a Chem

[MisanthropicProgram]

test.
This happened years ago. I had a Chem. test and the question had something to do with densities - I can't remember. But the point is, I remembered that the density of water is one, all the units where metric, and calculating the density, volume, and mass were a no brainer with the metric system.

I once got into a friendly argument with an engineer over the merits of the metric system. His argument "Foot-Lbs. I know what that is - that's obvious! Newton - what the fuck is a Newton."

Not as English as you think....

[rilister]

Honestly, US companies are genuinely converting to Metric, believe it or not. I work in a consultancy and work with a variety of clients, including a bunch in the worlds of science and medicine.

Since I design things (not code), I have to ask what units they want their things in - I remember one conversation with a wholly US based company going like this:

"What units do you want the database delivered in?"
- [SARCASM BOLD] "We are a scientific company.[/SARCASM BOLD]>
"Oh, right."

They made me feel pretty stupid for asking. I'd say across the product industry it's something like 50/50 right now.

Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr

[Too Much Noise]

What if you have to divide by 5? or 8? How heavy is each patty then?

It's easy to pick the numbers you like. There are always numbers a given multiplier won't divide nicely to.

Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr

[madman101]

IMHO, the metric system is doomed in the US because it's not American. That's not meant to be funny, sarcastic, or anything other than a simple fact. Well, perhaps it's meant to be a comment on the American psyche...

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[WormholeFiend]

but metric paper makes much better airplanes.

oops

[jbellis]

you are correct; I subtracted 8 instead of 18mm.

skinnier is still ugly though. :)

Re:oops

[edalytical]

Yes, but skinnier is easier to read. That's why newspapers are split into columns. It's easier to move to the next line if your eyes don't have to trace back 8 1/2 inches. Although, I don't think A4 is skinny enough to make a difference.

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[Sirch]

Not quite. The saying actually refers to the trip from the prison to the Tyburn Tree in London. The prisoner to be hanged would be given drink to calm him down for the hanging. The closest pub to the place of hanging that lay upon the route was a mile away. The prisoner would have a drink at this last pub, and then be given a drink to have on his way to the gallows. Interestingly, this is also the origin of "on the wagon" as one of the guards travelling with the prisoner was not allowed to enter the pubs with him. So couldn't drink, and had to stay on the wagon.

Some lovely linkage:here, here and here.

Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr

[fireduck]

except that the US apparently sanctioned the metric system in 1886, and the American Bureau of Standards made the metric system it's standard in 1964. (nice timeline here ). There've been various attempts to further adopt in more recent history, but basically the US doesn't want to change. The metric system is nonexistant as far as general use is concerned. The only "off the top of my head" metric use I can think of are 2 L bottles of coke. nothing else gets metric treatment.

Also makes weight calculation easy

[hazee]

The metric system also makes it easy to calculate the weight of an amount of paper. Photocopy paper is typically 80 grams per square meter. A0 paper is exactly 1 square meter, hence 80 grams; keep halving this until you arrive at 5 grams for a sheet of A4 paper. Easy! Could be useful when trying to calculate postage, typically done by weight. Try doing that with weird-o imperial sizes...

Another Cool Ratio

[donscarletti]

Although having paper with a 2^0.5 aspect ratio is by far the most practical solution it is not the most aesthetic solution. Photos and slides use an aspect ratio that is not used by any other type of paper. That ratio is (1 + 5^0.5) / 2 or approximately 1.61803399 .

This number is otherwise known as the "golden ratio", it was discovered back in classical Greece and it was known to be the most aesthetically pleasing of all ratios. The Parthenon in Athens was built so that its length and width were dictated by this ratio, it was also used by many Renaissance artists to draw the human body so it seems "perfect".

It is impossible of cause to prove mathematically that this ratio is the best looking of all irrational numbers any more than it is possible to prove mathematically who is the most attractive human, however it's endurance seems to suggest that it has some base to it. It has links with Fibonacci numbers, it also is encountered when drawing regular pentagrams and decagons.

Due to the aesthetically pleasing nature of this ratio I think it would be fairly cool to have a series of paper sizes based on this ratio for artistic uses, rather than the practical but bland "A" series or the fairly pointless American and Canadian series.

Metric & The US

[bobej1977]

I used to support using the metric system in the US after going through converting the different units in physics during high school and college, but I've since reconsidered.

I was once talking with some of family and I happened to say something like: 'It was 2 meters from me...' Immediately, one of my uncles interjected a joking comment about how I was the 'product' of the 'new' Math. We then proceeded to go off on a tangent about the merits of the two systems and how expensive it would be to switch to metric.

At that point though, I was struck by how his comment was loaded with negative connotation, which obviously did not stem simply from an aversion to the cost of a hypothetical switch to metric. I realized that the source of his distaste for metric was really just the instinctive reaction social animals use to build communities. The 'Us Vs. Them' filter that we all use to clump ourselves into social groups.

From this perspective, a human perspective, it makes complete sense to have differing systems of measurement. There would be obvious advantages if we all spoke the same language, but no one is proposing that we make everyone learn Chinese (quit being ethnocentric!). Even if everyone DID speak Chinese, people would still use their native languages at home, en familia. Why? Because the stratification of languages helps us to identify our social groups. In this way, we're 'The people who use miles', and they're/you're 'The people who use kilometers'. Communities, when you come down to it, are just sets of these bifurcations.

Taking all that into consideration, I've thrown in with the english system curmudgeons. Why? For the same reason I'm in favor of driver's tests in 16 languages. Because being human ain't about being efficient, it's about communities.

Re:Metric & The US

[Idarubicin]

From this perspective, a human perspective, it makes complete sense to have differing systems of measurement. There would be obvious advantages if we all spoke the same language, but no one is proposing that we make everyone learn Chinese (quit being ethnocentric!).

Don't tell George Bush that he's using Arabic numerals...

The simplest reason A4 won't take off in the US

[bob_shoggoth]

The simplest reason A4 won't take off in the US is that A4 doesn't fit in our file cabinets! We'd have to get rid of our file cabinets and folders and get new ones. Any A4 papers I have get all messed up in my filing cabinet as they don't fit!

As an American physicist, I use SI units for work, but happily use US units for everything else. I don't know why it just pisses off the rest of the world that we like Farenheit, inches, etc. WHO CARES! Why doesn't Europe get ONE FREAKING TYPE OF ELECTRICAL PLUG!

I found it funny that the article predicted the US switching, as I really don't see it happening.

Can anyone tell me why any A4 paper I get in Europe has a purple tinge to it? I find that very annoying.

Re:The simplest reason A4 won't take off in the US

[easter1916]

Did it say "Purple-Tinged A4 x 500 Sheets" on the packaging?

Re:The simplest reason A4 won't take off in the US

[Jott42]

You are kidding, right?
You know, ther is this nice thing called decimals. So the temperature goes from 0.5 degreed Celcius to 4.5 degrees Celsius. With a resolution of half a degree, which is standard, you get 200 steps from ice to boiling. But that comparison is meaningless, as you could just as easily add resolution to the Fahrenheit scale.

Joke on USers:

[Qbertino]

The funniest (sadest?) thing is that you kicked the british out and kept the worse thing they had voluntarily. The *imperial* system!
Even thought the french helped you! That's the real loser part.

BTW: It was Napoleon who established the metric system big time in large parts of his area of influence.
Shame he couldn't follow the other guidelines:
Universal Rule Number One: Never start a land war in Asia.

A complex way to point out simplity.

[MrChuck]

...factor of 2

Gee, I just learned that if you take a sheet of A3 and cut it in half, that's A4.
Need a couple sheets of A5? Fine, grab paper from the printer and cut come A4's in half. (or A3's into 4).

But geez, about making a really simple system sound complex...

Me? I've just personally given up Fahrenheit. The GirlF is coping with "wow, it must have dropped 5 degrees in the last half hour."

I'll be ready, cause I saw the movie in school, 'splaining that we'd be all metric by 1976.

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[Tony-A]

Gee, I just learned that if you take a sheet of A3 and cut it in half, that's A4.

If you take a D-size sheet of drafting paper,
cut into halves, you have two sheets of C-size drafting paper
cut into quarters, you have four sheets of B-size drafting paper, aka quarto
cut into eight pieces, you have eight sheet of A-size, aka letter, aka octavo.

The metric sizes preserve aspect ratio, the english sizes do not.

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[mrzaph0d]

I'll be ready, cause I saw the movie in school, 'splaining that we'd be all metric by 1976

weird thing is, i saw that same movie in 1987

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[Grooby]

Does this apply to Volumes?!?! cut a D-Cup size bra to get 2 C-cCup size bra?!?!

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[ZeLonewolf]

No, but since you ask:

The number is the measurement below the bust.

an A-cup is a 1-inch difference between the measurement below the bust versus around the bust.
B-cup is 2 inches, C-cup is 3 inches, etc.
DD is the same as E, DDD is the same as EE which is the same as F. This holds valid through an H cup. After that, the interval is 2 inches, with the doubled letter being the in-between value.
This, H-cup is 8", and I-cup is 10", and a 9" difference would be an HH-cup.

The largest bra size manufactured without a special order is a size 60N.

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[servognome]

maybe its strictly designed for slingshot use. Probably take down a medieval castle with that thing.

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... and there's countries that aren't part of the US, too.

It's called "The Rest Of The World". You'll find we do a lot of things differently here, if you ever bother to look.

Um. Sorry. Bad day. :-/

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[iminplaya]

Yeah... and there's countries that aren't part of the US, too.

Not for long...

Re:A complex way to point out simplity.

[Anonymous Coward]

just to be picky, that's not quite right:

The number is the number over the bust. The cup letter determines the underbust.

if the overbust is 34" or up, add 5" to the cup size difference.
if the overbust is 32" or down, add only 3.

That means someone wearing a 36C has a 36" overbust and a 28" underbust. (36" -3" -5")

So a 32C (32-3-3=26") has the same underbust as a 34A (34-5-3=26", also)...

(and AA is 1/2" instead of 0.)

wow

[tuggy]

wow! great discovery!
any ten-year-old in europe knows that...

Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr

[forrestt]

Actually, it has to do with apple pie. Since there is nothing more American than apple pie, the apple pie recipe is considered sacred. It has been passed down from generation to generation since the start of this glorious nation. Unfortunatly, it has been passed down on the female side of our ancestry, and we men have been telling our women that:

|------| = 10 inches, when in fact
|---------| = 10 inches.

This has caused them to become totally confused with regard to units of measure, and they are thus unable to convert imperial to metric units. Thus, if we were to switch to using the metric system, we would no longer be able to bake apple pies, a situation we are just not willing to accept.

Holy crap.

[Gannoc]

For those who enjoy a bit of math, did you know that in the Metric paper system, the height-to-width ratio of all pages is the square root of 2?

Slow News Day of the Year Award nominee here.

IHBT. i bite.

[ViVeLaMe]

nope, it isn't the same shape.
Long side / short side = ?
17/11 = 1.54545(54...)
11/8.5 = 1.29411(..)
they haven't the same shape.
you were right to post anonimously..

Not English

[Gonoff]

The metric sizes preserve aspect ratio, the english sizes do not

The sizes of paper you use are not English. In England, and the rest of this country, we use the international standard that includes A4. I suspect that you can buy other standards but I have no idea whatI would have to do if I needed "letter" or "legal" size paper.

Re:Not English

[beanyk]

The sizes of paper you use are not English. In England, and the rest of this country, we use the international standard that includes A4.

This confused me for a while after moving to the U.S. from Ireland. When they say "English" here about units of measurement, they mean what we call "Imperial".

Re:Not English

[Spudley]

Not only do we not use 'English' paper sizes in England, but we never used them.

Before we adopted A4 as our standard printer paper, typing paper was generally sold here in the wonderfully named Foolscap page size.

It was only a few years ago that stationery shops in England stopped selling Foolscap paper... around about the same time that Inkjet printers finally killed the market for dot matrix.

It was standardised printer models that killed off the Foolscap standard.

Re:Not English

[Kulaid982]

"PC Load Letter? What the fuck does that mean?!?"

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[poot_rootbeer]

504 gallons to go 1 mile!

Yep, sounds like a True American car to me.

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[Delta-9]

" this is also the origin of "on the wagon" as one of the guards travelling with the prisoner was not allowed to enter the pubs with him. So couldn't drink, and had to stay on the wagon."

I followed your link to "The Idler" and that site tells a different tale about the origin of "on the wagon," quoted below:
--
"Incidentally this also is the origin of 'on the wagon', after finishing his drink from the last tavern before the gallows, the prisoner would be put 'on the wagon' for the last time, destined never to drink again before his death."

Wrong

[ChrisMaple]

The density of water is defined as 1 at its maximum, 3.98 degrees C. Zero would be a poor choice, because water likes to freeze there and its density changes drastically. (Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 58th edistion, page F11)

Actually...

[cr0sh]

This number is otherwise known as the "golden ratio", it was discovered back in classical Greece and it was known to be the most aesthetically pleasing of all ratios. The Parthenon in Athens was built so that its length and width were dictated by this ratio, it was also used by many Renaissance artists to draw the human body so it seems "perfect".

These supposed "truisms" are actually mostly false - most are due to attempting to find the ratio where it didn't exist in the first place (ala Hoagland's "City of Mars" "mathematical layout", the Great Pyramid's "mathematical layout", etc)...

If you want a great book on the subject of the phi, check out the book "The Golden Ratio" by Mario Livio (ISBN 0-7679-0816-3) to learn more about it than you would ever care to know...

Re:Yes, but...

[ChrisMaple]

If Fermat had used American paper, we wouldn't have had to wait 350 years for a proof of his last theorem.

The biggest reason the U.S.A. doesn't use metric

[GlobalEcho]

Though all the speculation about US backwardness and hostility toward foreign systems is certainly entertaining, there's a benign historical explanation that I find compelling. It goes something like this:

Recall that industrial mass production is essentially a 20th century invention, and that by the 1940's it still had not really spread beyond the U.S. and Europe. In World War II, most European industrial capacity was destroyed at one point or another, providing a clean slate to rethink standards for every industry, and to adopt logical standards with no switchover cost.

After WWII, Europe wisely went to the metric system. Developing countries wisely adopted it as well. But the U.S., with its factories intact (and now back to making cars and vacuum cleaners) was saddled (and remains cursed with) with tremendous switching costs. The expense in lost customers and supplier confusion is too great for a company in most industries to unilaterally change. And agreements to change all at once are very hard to achieve.

Empirical evidence:

Newer US major industries (e.g. semiconductors) usually work in metric

(As noted elsewhere) US science is in metric; because switchover costs are lower scientists could switch almost right away.

Well-meaning attempts to effect a switch have been ignored by industry (because of the cost)

US industries with a big international component are often metric (bicycle manufacture)

I suppose the conclusion to draw is that the US is unlikely to switch until either something destroys its industrial factories, or the "old" unswitched industries become so dwarfed by new metric ones that it is actually cheaper for them to change.

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[Idarubicin]

damn your car is a gas guzzeler!

504 gallons to go 1 mile!

From here, the gas mileage of a modern aircraft carrier is seventeen feet per gallon...so he's getting 40% less distance per unit of fuel.

Consequently, I speculate that his vehicle must be an aircraft carrier...operating on land.

My only question is, where the hell does he park it?

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Consequently, I speculate that his vehicle must be an aircraft carrier...operating on land. My only question is, where the hell does he park it?

If it's still fully equipped and armed, then the correct answer is:

Wherever he wants to.

Look at the numbers...

[imsabbel]

and you will see as a true geek that process structure sizes use the same shrinking factors (0.35um, 0.25,0.18,0.13,0.09,....)

Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system.

[Sirch]

Hmm. Shouldn't have used that as a reference then. It totally compromises my explanation.

Silly websites, with their alternative opinions.

When I was in the army

[empaler]

we saw a movie that warned us about the dangers of Trench Foot - it was made around the time of WWII, in the US.

My first day in the army was the 3rd of December, 2001. Ahem.

Actually

[geekoid]

the US was on course to be completly metric years ago, unfortunatly Reagon cut the funding. I remeber learning the metric system in grade schools in the 70's. Some road signs started appearing that had both speeds on it, as well as speedomoeters. Every public displayed thermometers showd Celsius and Farenheit. Factories had begun the process of changing over, then no more funding.
But, if the only way to get elected is to 'cut taxes', what do you think is going to happen?