Slashdot Mirror
Dealing w/ Online Fraudulent Sellers?
Nicholas French asks: "I have recently made a couple of online purchases, one was an Ancient Bronze Amlash ring from
The Antiquities Company which cost me *cough* 'a lot of money' and was backed up by a 'guarantee of authenticity'. The other was a second hand Book Crowds
& Power, via the Amazon
Marketplace, which I have not even received regardless of the numerous emails sent to both the seller and Amazon. I have since taken delivery of the ring and had its metal composition tested...turns out it is actually brass, and not exactly Ancient either! When I approached the seller via email, quoting my money back 'guarantee of authenticity' I was told politely to take a hike. I am considering speaking to Trading standards but am not really sure where to start, so have added myself to the growing numbers of reported Fraud victims on Fraud.Org. Have any other Slashdot readers managed to retrieve their hard earned cash from these Fraudsters, or had any similar problems with large online's such as
Amazon?"
reasonable rates (generally percentage off the money required to get back)
discounts for regular customers
free educational seminar on bad nature of fraud conducted by instructors in leather jackets with baseball bats
boosting scammer's local economy by increasing his medical bills
YOu did use your credit card RIGHT? Well then go through them and their fraud department. Very likely to be successful.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
Did you pay with your credit card?
If so, contact your credit card company to initiate a chargeback. For items that you haven't received, you should just have to fill out a form. If the item wasn't as described, you will have to return the item to the seller via insured shipping w/ tracking and indicate the tracking info on the form.
Different credit card companies have different policies, but most of them should be willing to help you out.
Mention them on slashdot and hope that they get slashdotted. If they have a crappy ISP then that should bring down the website for a while. While this won't get you your money back, you'll have the satisfaction of causing them headaches, and that's worth something, isn't it?
- doug
what did you think would happen, lusting after the ancient Ring?
Honestly, my experiences with customer service at Amazon have been extremely helpful, although follow-through has been spotty. There's no question that you should be protected by their guarantee, though. You don't explain what their response was -- are they refusing to honor it?
As far as the other company goes, it sounds like straight-up fraud -- go to the relevant law enforcement people and, in the future, avoid vendors with names like "The Honourable Company". And *always* use a credit card!
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
eBay right now has around 30 One Ring, 100% authentic. Nah, I'm not going to be the one that actually believes that all of these are the unique One Ring that turns you invisible. They'll make $5.95 ($11.95 "buy it now") vanish, however! I've even seen eBay entries for "One Ring" that "really works".
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Use your credit card for small purchases, make sure it has some kind of fraud protection. If you get ripped off, just do a chargeback.
If it is a large purchase, seek out one of the internet's escrow companies. They are used all the time in these matters. You can even have them independantly verify the authenticity of your purchase before money is actually transferred.
Good luck.
--Chris
As much as I hate to admit it I purchased an imaginary girlfriend from imaginarygirlfriends.com. They charged my credit card about $45.00 and then I never heard from them. I started sending them emails but they never bothered to reply to my emails. Eventually, after about two weeks, I contacted the company who handles their credit card transactions and I filed a complaint with them. Still nothing happened. I again mailed the company that handles their credit transactions, this time an angry email accusing imaginarygirlfriends.com of being a scam and stealing my money. Within a few hours I got an email back from them saying the issue was resolved and that I would be getting a refund and an apology from imaginarygirlfriends.com.
It is not bad enough that I am so low and pathetic that I would think of using a service like imaginarygirlfriends.com but then they go and just take my money and make me look like a bigger loser. Of course in the end I did get my money back but only after weeks had passed and many unanswered emails had been sent.
Never buy anything from a page that has annoying music on it. Very bad sign. Also, on the front page there's a link to an RV sales site. Another really bad sign. The clues were all there, so caveat emptor.
This is America, damnit. Speak Spanish!
It's a bit hard to find, but you can file a claim here if you get stiffed by an Amazon Marketplace seller, and Amazon will refund your money. I've used it once in the past with no problems.
Omnes arx vestrum sunt adiuncta nobis.
But what about the other direction? One guy found out he was getting scammed by a buyer and so instead of selling him a Powerbook, he sold him a P-P-P-Powerbook. :) Gotta love it.
Due to the extreme payrises recently for The Simpsons voiceover talent, they have had to let go the guy that did the fat superhero/trek worshipping role. My suggestion is to curse the guy who sold you the Absolutely Genuine Authentic Object You Want Thing - curse him in Klingon, I say, and move on in your life, move forward to a New You that does not need painful weights[1] to increase your Manhood extents, and audition as the New Trek Guy in the Simpsons- you ARE the new trek guy, no stop YOU MAKE ME CRY!!1
[1] actual spam received today
This is precisely why I'll only use a credit card.
Banks and credit card (at least, all of those that I've dealt with) seem to take a very dim view of fraud. I've NEVER had a problem filing a dispute, and getting my money back. I've had unauthorized charges, defective products/equipment that the vendor would not accept for a return, items that failed to live up to their description, and services offered and paid for that were not adequately provided. In every one of these instances, I've been able to successfully get my money back.
Don't pay via any other method than a credit card. Don't use a check; it's notoriously difficult to get money back in the case of check fraud. Using a postal money order depends on your ability to both A) find the seller and B) find someone at the post office who's interested in following it up. DO NOT use a service like Western Union; this is one of the easiest ways for sellers to get your money and just disappear.
Paypal is something of a toss-up. I've asked my bank, and they said that they had no problem disputing a charge with Paypal if an item was sold fraudulently. I have not needed to test this yet, but here are my concerns: First, Paypal may claim that my agreement is with them and not the seller, and that they have fulfilled their part of the bargain: to deliver my money to the seller. I don't know how well that argument would hold up, but I don't relish the idea of having to argue it. I think I'd win, but it woudn't be fun. Second, Paypal may just choose to write off the loss, and send my account to a collection agency, again citing their responsibilities, and the terms and conditions they list on their site. Collection agencies are MUCH harder to argue with, and legally, Paypal may very well be correct. In general, I only use Paypal for items with a relatively small value/selling price.
In just about any instance, using a credit card is better at protecting your interests. There are no guarantees, but here's how the Visa system works:
Buyer gives Seller their credit card. Seller runs the card through Processor. (Whomever is processing their charges for them) This can be a bank or a third-party processor, but usually it's the latter, unless it's a larger company with their own merchant account with a financial institution. Third-party processors are usually a cheaper option for companies or sellers with lower sales numbers. Anyway, Seller gives Processor Buyer's credit card info. Processor runs the card through the Visa system and if it returns an authorization, either immediately deposits the money into Seller's account, or sends them a biweekly/monthly check, depending on their agreement. The Visa system does a test with Buyer's credit card backer (their bank, CC company, etc.) to make sure the funds are available. This is not actually a charge; it's called an "authorization", and will drop off in a few days to a week. The actual charge (called a "posted" charge) comes through anywhere from the same day to a few weeks later, though usually it takes 2-3 days, and again must be initiated by Seller's financial institution, though this is usually automatic.
For a dispute, Buyer's financial institution tells Visa International that the charge was fraudulent, or services were not provided, or whatever. Visa goes to Seller's financial institution and asks for proof that the charge was legit, and Seller's financial institution forwards this request to Seller. This is often quite difficult for Seller, if they do not have your signature. That's the reason most companies require so much verification over the phone/web. If Seller cannot demonstrate that they have provided all products/services promised, the charge is reversed. This is called a "chargeback", and usually costs Seller's financial institution (and thus, Seller), a fee. Most sellers would rather just process the return than get a chargeback, both because of the fee and because it's a black mark on their record. I'm not sure who
If you purchased something from that website, you simply deserve to be ripped off. Note the following:
- It is extremely poorly designed for a website that sells expensive things. The spelling/grammar is screwed up in a few places.
- There is no contact information, no street address, and it's hard to even tell what country they are in.
- They accept Paypal instead of having a normal credit card processor
- They try to sell you vacations and such
- There is no policy page. Nothing is mentioned about returns. Nothing about the authenticity policy is in writing.
- There are many links to suspicious websites
Basically, a web store that looks like this is an obvious scam. And chances are, if it looks like a scam, it probably is.
It isn't hard to get a real girlfriend. Just go up to them and talk. You'll fail a few times before you score. That's life.
I just checked out that website.. Hiring a "girlfriend" is like paying a girl for a lapdance and not seeing titties..
There are plenty of girls out there who want a boyfriend too.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
I think you need to wait 30 days and then you can file a claim with Amazon within the next 30. They'll try to resolve it with the seller, and it it doesn't work out, they'll give you your money back. I ordered a book which never arrived; no response to emails. And got a refund no questions asked. Ebay doesn't have that kind of policy AFAIK.
Alex.
I got the link from this Metafilter post. It has more info about the situation.
No! You have to go to the mailing address where you sent the money and deliver a few "lashings of the old ultraviolence"
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Are you an ID10T? What kind of moron would believe a lame site such as thehonorablecompany.com? First of all if the artifacts are real, they would be in a museum and not for sale online. Second of all, the site is indeed questionable.
You deserve to lose the money you spent on the ring. The used book via Amazon marketplace is another dumb thing to do. It's no better then dealing with someone via eBay.
If you used a credit card you can have the credit card company fight on your behalf but if you didn't then you are screwed.
Next time be more wary of online fraud.
If you find a site that looks shady and you want to buy something, do a google for the site name and scam. Do this for other things too -- I managed to find out a real estate conference I was looking to attend was little more then a scam doing this. Besides that, if you don't do your due dilligence, make sure to trade on reputable sites, or sites which don't have protection (i.e. ebay offers you protection for some $$$), you deserve what you get.
I used to buy some stuff on pricewatch.com a few years ago. They were a really good site for scanning low prices from online stores--similar to what bizrate does. Recently, though, I looked at some stuff on there, and they totally do not police their sellers. There is a policy statement that they will ban sellers that are fraudulent, but check the comments on some of them. There are many of their merchants (obviously the ones with the lowest prices so they get listed first) who have about equal numbers of positive and negative feedback. The negative feedback are complaints from people who have been scammed and are pretty detailed about what the problem was. The positive feedback goes like this:
10:22PM Good service!
10:24PM Received merchandise.
10:29PM Very fast shipping.
10:35PM Would buy from again.
They need to kick those companies off their site. The best way to weed through the crap is to find places that have very low negative feedback. If you look into those negative feedback comments then, it's usually some kind of inconvenience thing like, "They told me it would ship Saturday, but it didn't ship til Monday."
The most frequent scam that's reported from these online sellers is that when you place an order for something, they call or email you to try to sell you other stuff in addition to what you ordered or try to convince you to buy this more expensive model. If you refuse, they cancel your order, and sometimes charge a few bucks for a "restocking" fee for the merchandise. If they don't charge the restocking fee, it's a pretty safe scam for them because they don't have to sell anything cheap, but they also are not in trouble because you're not out any money.
We may experience some slight turbulence and then...explode. -Capt. Mal Reynolds
Alarm monitoring services seem to use the ploy of automatic, long-term renewal of their services. For example, I bought alarm monitoring services from Phoenix Alarm (now ProAlert). If my alarm goes off, they call the cops. But they first sign you to a really long-term contract (3 years, I believe). Then, if you don't cancel the contract within 30 days of the end of the period, they renew you again. No exceptions at all.
So in my case, I used it for 3 years, it renewed for another year, then it renewed again because I didn't cancel by December 6, 2003.
Here's the thing: I put the house on the market December 15, 2003. When I tried to cancel the contract, they told me I missed the deadline!
So here I am, 800 miles away from a house I no longer own, and they are forcing me to pay $30/month to "monitor" it! To make the situation even worse, they can't *actually* monitor the house! The new owners do not have my PIN, so they can't even arm the system. But they are still going to force me to pay them, even though they are doing nothing. Fucking bastards.
dude you sound like Ned Flanders
The Romans didn't find algebra very challenging, because X was always 10
3 Coventry Road,
Bulkington,
Bedworth,
Warks.
CV12 9LY
United Kingdom
So your best bet, if you can't claim through your credit card, is to contact Warwickshire Trading Standards.
Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.
There was an article last summer, in a magazine called fastcompany, about a postal inspector who was specializing in busting ebay fraudsters. That web-page, http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/73/kirsner.htm l, does not seem to be online right now. It described various dirty tricks crooked ebayers use. If Fast Company magazine has gone out of business it would be worth going to the library to read this article, which was entitled, "catch me if you can".
http://complaints.bbb.org/Welcome.asp
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA
Using a credit card for on-line purchases is a smart move in many places, but how smart depends on your local law.
In the UK, AAIU, consumer credit law basically says that the credit card company is jointly and severally liable with the seller if things go wrong (if the seller goes under, for example). Hence you can take the same legal action against the credit card company as you can against the seller to recover your losses.
NB: There are certain restrictions on this UK situation, which you'd have to check if you're thinking of using this. I think the purchase has to be in the 100-30,000 pounds range for this to apply, for example.
Also, be prepared to fight for this, as some CC companies are much better than others. When I cancelled an order from an on-line dealer that was unreasonably late, and my credit card was later charged anyway, the card company's first reaction was a stonewall claiming that this wasn't fraud as I'd given my card details to the company voluntarily. Legally speaking that may have been true (I never sought advice on this) but nevertheless I had explicitly withdrawn my consent and the card had been charged anyway, which would be against the rules on some other count. The card company just referred me back to the seller (Jungle.com, BTW) who had no answer. It was only when I went back to the card company a few weeks later, by which time they'd obviously received lots of complaints about the same company with the same computer glitch, that my money was refunded.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.