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Everaldo and Jimmac On Linux Art and Usability
Eugenia writes "Metin Amiroff of OSNews interviewed the well known artists of KDE and GNOME, Everaldo and Jimmac. They discuss their first steps into Linux, the applicationss they use and why Linux still doesn't have all the professional applications and support they need for their day to day work, their inspiration, the state of the Linux desktop visually and usability-wise, the SVG factor and their future plans for KDE and GNOME."
Even though the art in an OS is far from vital, it makes the experience easier. Un like some OS's with bad graphics, its like watching surgery.
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
Cue replies from Gimp-bashers in 3, 2, 1....
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Get Dell HP and others
to agressively market preinstalled Linux machines
Everything else will fall into place
A test for a self sufficient OS is for it to be self hosted, or able to compile itself on itself.
A good test of desktop self-sufficiency could be if an OS can make it's own high quality SVG icons.
Linux is getting there, but not quite yet.
The perfect sig is a lot like silence, only louder
In Windows, the different icons and color schemes don't vary too much. Some programs have stupid icons - but most have fairly neat icons and artwork.
However, in Linux IMO, it's not the case. Some icons and artwork looks amazing while others look absolutely horrible. After dabbling with linux a few times, I really can't stand how the different schemes of different programs don't seem to fit together too well. In Mandrake 10 (last Linux I've used), there were whole different styles of icons.. like, Open Office had it's own set that were X pixels by Y colors in Z-bit color.. while Random Mandrake Prog had icons A pixels by B colors in C-bit color.
I am starting to think that I would rather just have an entire OS that didn't use Icons. Instead, it would be only labeled buttons.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
http://www.everaldo.com/
http://jimmac.musichall.cz/index.php3
Desktop Linux for the common user is an eventuality, not merely a possibility.
:)
There is way too much interest displayed by business both large and small to see Linux displace MS Windows for the cost savings alone. So far, it's primarily server-side stuff but moving from server to desktop is also an eventuality.
So any time I see some article stating "Linux doesn't have this or that" or "...isn't ready..." I start to yawn a bit. I think it's nice that they're honest enough not to say that it will never happen.
> what if linux isn't the shizzle?
Then you wouldn't describe it with some bogus vogue phrase?
An interview about art and usability of free software and not a single word about dyne:bolic? I am very disappointed.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
There are many, many talented graphics artists in the world, but almost no one is asking for their help on these projects. Nor does the average programmer know where to go to find artists who are willing to help out.
We need an Open Graphics Art Project to connect together open source programmers with open art artists.
Same thing to a lesser extent with other professions like information architects (often found in the same person as a graphic artists, but not identical), usability/ergonomics, writing, game playability tuning, etc.
Perhaps all it would take is the right web site to help these people find each other.
Professional Wild-Eyed Visionary
...and here I thought that (too much) of the visual inspiration for both was Windows XP (and Windows 98 before that), hence the garish colors and the unnecessary complexity and eye-candy.
"...the state of the Linux desktop visually and usability-wise..."
The title talks about art and usablitiy, and there it is in that quoted segment above...
Q: How do you find open source graphics/CG arts related apps like Gimp, Inkscape, Sodipodi, Karbon14 and Blender? Could you comment on them?
I like Sodipodi and inkspace, I foresee a great future for both.
Gimp is very good (except CMYK as mentioned every time it comes up in a pro context), but Sodipodi is a vector-based drawing program (SVGish) that does not "yet" support "rotation" of anything. (!) It will "flip," but not rotate. Unusable.
He almost lost credibility with the "liking Sodipodi" comment, but then I started to think that maybe he was just being polite. Nice guy.
everything in moderation
...was buy a copy of "TheSansMono Office", the most incredibly gorgeous, easy to read, monospaced font I have ever seen. It cost quite a lot (100euro), but not a day goes by that I don't thank myself for getting it. It makes working in gvim + gnome-terminal for 15 hour days, weeks on end, completely painless. About the worst thing that happened was that I stopped taking breaks from work!
Take a look at LucasFonts. Their tech support is top notch: I initially had a few problems getting the font to render with freetype: they got back to me within 24 hours with a _fixed font_, attached. I was stunned.
No, I don't work for them, I'm just a very (VERY!) happy customer...
If you want to use the KDE icons in gtk+ applications, you should check out this page which builds upon the GTK-QT theme engine. It works well, I'm using it right now to chat on Gaim.
What does he think?
The more you know, the less you understand.
In conclusion, once more I would like to thank the community of user and developers of KDE for using my work and for supporting me. You have no idea how much this has been important for me. I also thank all Linux distros that are using Crystal in their projects. I really feel honored. Special thanks to Lindows team, you have been awesome!
:)
Doesn't he know about the MS lawsuit? It's now Lin---- right? Oh, no, wait, it's Linspire now.
Can't blame him for not keeping up, I guess?
everything in moderation
While in terms of absolute best visual quality, I have to say that OS X beats any linux theme i've seen (although a number of the aqua themes are really nice), I think linux wins for customizability. ,Gnome2 is also looking really nice, though in a different way.
While others may disagree, I think that Windows XP has perhaps the absolute worst graphical style of any modern OS.
Aqua is really slick, but eventually it gets old, wheras there are dozens of really nice looking themes for KDE.
Even though I have a personal preference for KDE,
I think the biggest advantage Linux has over other OS's is that, while there may not be as many artist using Linux, any artist who wishes has the option of adding artwork or making any other changes to any given program, and the best of those can be incorperated into the program.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Just in case there are still some Slashdotters who do not yet know dyne:bolic, please let me quote dyne:bolic website:
Therefore, as you can clearly see, asking about dyne:bolic should be the very first question a self-respecting journalist would ask in any interview "on Linux art and usability." Otherwise such an interview is not even worth the screen it is printed on. For more interesting informations please visit dyne:bolic and media activists websites. There are many artists already using dyne:bolic. More informations about "GNU GPL free and opensource software by a rastafari programmer lost in babylon pioneering multimedia on GNU/Linux since 2000" can be found on the Rastasoft website. I believe Metin Amiroff should include the above informations in the next interview. I might add that simply googling for Linux art and following some links before making the interview might have found dyne:bolic in the first place. We certainly need more articles and interviews on the subject.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
the applicationss they use We wants applicationss, my preciouss...
...confronting Linux usability that /. conflates the term with "art" in a headline.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
From the Sodipodi tips and tricks page:
Object rotation
When in Select mode, click on an object to see the scaling arrows, then click again on the object to see the rotation and shift arrows. If the arrows at the corners are clicked and dragged, the object will rotate about the opposite corner. If you hold down the shift key while doing this, the rotation will occur about the Rotation Point (nominally the center of the object).
The Rotation Point can be moved by clicking on the very center of the object and dragging the center point to where you want to pivot around. Then if you shift-drag on a corner point, it will rotate about that point.
My other first post is car post.
It still has a shell:
You have to be kidding. Windows and OSX both have a shell. What do you call the command prompt and the darwin xterm?
Installing is a pain:
Have you tried any rpm managed system? Granted it is not as ideal as Windows, or OSX, but it works. I will give you this one though, this is not ready for the average user. Still, the experienced PC user will and should understand basic linux installing concepts. Especially now that distros like SuSE or Redhat allow you to do this graphically.
Antialiasing does not work:
Okay, this is entirely subjective and opinionated.
Moral: Linux is not for everybody...yet. Do something about it, at least you have that option.
Windows: I install a Windows application it asks me all sorts of questions. I install a Linux application, it installs. I don't know how OSX does it.
And as for anti-aliasing, my KDE desktop is more readable to me than my Windows desktop. I use Vertical RGB, try it out.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
** Mac users please ignore as you might consider this a bash/insult/flame **
Why is it that most of the skins/themes that I find on sites like www.kde-look.org all try to emulate MacOS ?
I understand that a lot of people like and enjoy cutesy and "fluffy" in their icon sets and skins, but for crying out loud those people are our girlfriends and/or Wives. We know that they only play Sims or Lemmings, and they looove clicking on everything they get in their emails.
MS catered to these types with the default look of XP, big blue & fluffy. Please name me one true geek who didn't turn that crap of the first time that they saw it.
We all know that MS is always chasing Apple's tail when it comes to innovative design choices.
I am very glad that Linux gives us the choice of using whatever theme/icon-pack that we choose.
What ever happened to all those unemployed ergonomic specialists after the dot.crash ?
Why can't some study be done to determine how tedious all that cutesy stuff is and concentrate on function and less on form?
Take Windows 2000 for example. It wasn't ugly, it was functional and worked.
I have tried all the themes that I could find at kde-look that looked halfway utilitarian, hell I even tried the Redmond Theme, (but for some reason it didn't quite work right. Allergic reaction I think.)
This all brings me back to the start. One of my biggest complaints about Linux is the lack of GOOD choices. No CEO will ever be impressed with icons and button that are 2cmx2cm in size and use all 16bits of colour. Lets all try standard toolbars & buttons templates. We all hated the icons from Win3.11 but they did have 1 thing going for them; They were simple and unobtrusive.
ok, I think I feel better now.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
OSX does it in a couple ways:
Most apps can be installed simply by decompressing them and moving the application icon wherever you want. To uninstall you just delete the one Icon, all the associated files are packaged together inside it.
Some apps use a very simple wizard. You open it, click yes on the EULA, select the partition you want to install to, and click next.
Let's make a difference
I'd just like to remind you all (I do this periodically) to take a look at www.kde-look.org and check it regularly! For whatever reason this is the *one* Linux based site (well, kde anyway) that has managed to form a healthy alliance between the graphics world and the Linux community.
This is the kind of cross pollination we *really* need. And before anyone starts to say anything about other attempts, review the format they are using. Look at the little things like the clean organization and the *feedback* options. This site sets a standard I have yet to see anyone live up to and it does it while encouraging the artists! My hats off. Lets encourage more positive interaction with our users and those of us with an artistic bend!
Quack, quack.
A great UI should feel good as well as look good, but the 'feel' part is ultimately far, far more important. It's great that there's people who are contributing this sort of work to KDE and Gnome but the best icons in the world can't save you if the application is confusing. Pine has a good, easy to use interface and it has no graphics. Conversely you can get eleventy billion skins for XMMS but that doesn't make the dialog for selecting and adding files to a playlist any less cumbersome.
There's a quote in Tufte's Envisioning Information that I think about a lot:[paraphrased and unattributed, my copy is at work]
The solution is tough, in my experience a lot of coders aren't keen on letting a 'mere' designer criticize their software and the number of good UI designers with spare time for OSS projects is pretty small.
Label me as Troll if you will. Slashdot is way behind OSNews.
This guy is way out there
Like hell it is an improved interface of NeXTStep. It's a bastardization of NeXTStep without the Power of NeXTStep--no WindowServer.app--not to mention NeXTStep is a UI Design Paradigm still unequaled today in its consistency, productivity and ease-of-use. And MECCA (Openstep 4.0 Release Candidate 1) with the TabbedView Shelf that still hasn't resurfaced in OS X (hopefully one day) was an improvement over NeXTStep/Openstep but never saw the light of day, unless of course you happened to have worked at NeXT and/or you worked after the merger at Apple and either worked or hung out in Engineering.
GNUstep is nowhere as elegant as NeXTStep and they know it, but you can't fault the developers since Steve hasn't ever nor will he ever open source any of that code.
The moment KDE adds native Objective-C support by working with GNUstep folks than just maybe then we'll actually see Linux and Apple really bring a one-two punch to the Enterprise. How come? If both platforms support Cocoa's Portable Distributed Objects you can leverage existing PC hardware running Linux while bringing in PowerPC Hardware with OS X/X Server and suddenly any "holes" that the Windows World claims become even more fantastical, if not just blatantly bitter sweet moans of frustration.
But no. We have people maddenly working on C# in hopes to make sure everyone can connect to .NET Services. I'm sure Microsoft doesn't mind since you still have to pay the piper, one way or another.
"Face it, there's nothing like photoshop. Adobe! Please port!"
NOTHING! NOTHING! Absolutely NOTHING! FOREVER, and FOREVER, NOW and in the PAST, FUTURE and FOREVER.
Oh wait. We were going for the honest perspective weren't we.
In my sense of aesthetics, text based interfaces always look better. My desktop has no graphics anywhere (well, that's a lie - I do have xsnow running but I still prefer mostly everything to be text based). One of my favorite "desktop themes" is the command line.
The design of interactive systems is an entire discipline. It is as hard and as important as software engineering. Very few software developers have even the most basic training in this area. Also, analyzing and designing interactive systems is very expensive. It takes time and it requires some sort of contact with your intended user base before you start writing code. Many projects could use external help. What we need is to call human-computer interaction experts to the game. If a few experts could buy into the free software idea and do some free (as in beer) consulting, everyone would benefit. How do you do free as in beer consulting? You publish every deliverable on the net, under a Creative Commons license. This way, HCI students will have access to the methods used in real projects. These students, in turn, will be even easier to draft. I ask you all to turn you advocacy powers in this direction.
I can't even do that. My Wacom tablet doesn't work with MDK10. I guess it's pencil sketches and scanner for me.
"Creativity is much harder to find"
Which only thrives in an environment of strong artist rights.
"Perhaps all it would take is the right web site to help these people find each other."
Maybe we can start respecting artists, and their rights, and I'm not just talking RIAA/MPAA either.
Nothing says "come on in, the water's fine" like "Hey did you see this sketch I "borrowed" from this guys site, and distributed all over the internet?" (Damn! What's that small print? "Do not distribute without my permission").
No troll labeling required, just an examination on exactly what is OSNews.com. Yes they provide news that Slashdot sometimes misses, and yes it is constantly updated. However, the "editors" especialy Eugenia, seem to be very obsessed with certain topics. Their obsession caries over to bias, and their bias carries over to poor news-reporting. On top of that, because of the high-volume traffic of Slashdot, you get an incredible variety of comments on each article. Many bullshit, some useful. Just remember, OSNews.com fills gaps, but Slashdot is THE nerd news authority.
Redhat is doing a good job of making all standard applications have a consistent look and feel (BlueCurve).
They even followed Ximian's lead and made custom Open Office icons.
It still has a shell ...
.. which only adds to the greatest of Linux (making it fun, highly configurable, and coming from a veteran MS-Windows user here: WAY-MORE-USEABLE). .. you still have much more power than any "DOS" shell.
..
I take it you mean the shell in Linux's case is "easier" or "more visible" than in other OS'es.
Why is that bad?
Linux is about choice - and that IMO confers greater usability.
There is a cult of Console-Followers, and a cult of Minimal-X-WindowManager
Its incredible how the console short-cuts many functions, and if perchance you are out in the dark (ie no Video due to installing a new graphics card)
You can send emails (Mutt/Pine), you can browse the web (Links/LYNX), hell - you can chat with your MSN/ICQ/etc buddies on a pure text console (CenterICQ), while on some another text-console (ALT+F2 to ALT+F6) you fix/do whatever you have to.
So having a shell is in no-way detrimental to a user-experience but an invaluable aid.
I wonder if in Windows when you reboot as "Console Only" - if you can do all these things.
Installing is a pain
I give you that one. That is probably one feature even the most die-hard Linux fan might agree. There are advances however such as debian-based apt-get which gives you this huge library of self-configurable applications.
All you have to do is type (imaginary example here!):
>apt-get install enemy-territory
Very powerful, free, and in that case I think beats Windows
Try and download a free app for Window from download sites and you get pop-ups, you must hand your email for spam, your stuff could be bundled with spyware
In Linux - the real pain starts if you want to compile/install apps like "ardour", or "nvu" or worse "Gnome 2.6" from scratch. Then yes you are in for a MAJOR headache.
Commercial software that use Loki-installers are on the right path (ie CrossOver and many games).
Antialiasing does not work
I don't know what distro you've been playing with.
My fonts are much clearer/cleaner and sharper than when I had Windows XP installed. That is not only some blind comment - my friends (MS Window Users) tell me so.
I have failed to mention it for I am not using a blinking browser. In any event, I did not realize it was relevant to answer the very question whether their operating system should be discussed in the context of art and multimedia production using Linux and the usability thereof. Blinking tags or otherwise, in my opinion discussing art in Linux without evaluating dyne:bolic is like discussing Linux desktop usability and ease of use without evaluating Knoppix or discussing systems security in general without evaluating EROS and KeyKOS--i.e. ignorant at best if not outright moronic. I see no connection to blinking tags whatsoever.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Linux is just a kernel. Most users shouldn't need to deal with that, and instead should get support from their OS vender. Red Hat is supposed to have good support.
It's not vital in the sense, that you need nice graphics to make an application run faster, or the os to boot up faster. That's obvious.
But for getting Linux a bigger piece of the desktop pie, I think that graphic design is extremely vital.
I'm a graphic designer, that works on websites. My project manager and I create the way that a user interacts with the website. Although while working or even just talking about a project, our progammer does come up with a brilliant ideas. I have to take his ideas and make it work for the whole project.
Graphic designers don't worry about arrays, hashes, apis, pointers, compilers, or any of that stuff. Our world revolves around one thing: Designing that layer between the user and the gears doing the work behind the curtain.
That's why I think that alot of the small details that will seperate the linux desktop from being good or great will come from graphic designers.
-asoap
Treat me like a marketing stat, and I'll treat your movie like a series of ones and zeros
If you call compiling and all the other commands that goes with installing Linux applications as just instant installation. Atleast window's install questions make it easier.
so many people think that art is just about how things 'LOOK',
but true art arises where form and function are integral --
-- design is not veneer - steve jobs interview in fortune magazine --
Fortune Magazine: What has always distinguished the products of the
companies you've led is the design aesthetic. Is your obsession with design
an inborn instinct or what?
Steve Jobs: We don't have good language to talk about this kind of thing.
In most people's vocabularies, design means veneer.
It's interior decorating.
It's the fabric of the curtains and the sofa.
But to me, nothing could be
further from the meaning of design.
Design is the fundamental soul of a man-made creation that ends up
expressing itself in successive outer layers of the product or service.
The iMac is not just the colour or translucence or the shape of the shell.
The essence of the iMac is to be the finest possible consumer computer
in which each element plays together.
On our latest iMac, I was adamant that we get rid of the fan, because it
is much more pleasant to work on a computer that doesn't drone all the time.
That was not just "Steve's decision" to pull out the fan; it required an
enormous engineering effort to figure out how to manage power better and do
a better job of thermal conduction through the machine. That is the furthest
thing from veneer. It was at the core of the product the day we started.
This is what customers pay us for--to sweat all these details so it's easy
and pleasant for them to use our computers. We're supposed to be really good
at this. That doesn't mean we don't listen to customers, but it's hard for
them to tell you what they want when they've never seen anything remotely
like it.
It's not as crazy as the chicken and the egg problem, as in which is more important or which comes first, but I dare say that instructive icons do go a certain amount of the way in making the interface intuitive. ... pick any/all of those - basically, they serve to generate interest in the app. After that, whether they're sold on it or not depends on the features. But beautiful icons do help creating a nice first impression.
I would also like to add that with something as beautiful as a keyboard to use for input, it really doesn't matter how and where the buttons/menus are placed as long as every command can be customized to be run with a keyboard shortcut - then you essentially create your own interface - and THIS feature should be easily accessible. I mean comeon, let's take a leaf out of some of the most successful programs in open source - vi and emacs - what do they have in common? keyboard shortcuts. Look at an artist using photoshop...how many times do they actually click the buttons? they use keyboard shortcuts too.
So I feel that as long as there is a place to customize those shortcuts, icons do go a long way towards making an app look "presentable", "easy to use", "cool", "neat"
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
I take it you like dyne:bolic?
Hello foot, allow me to introduce Mouth. You two will be together a lot in the near future.. (sigh)
Sorry.
#1) Not all women are technophobic.
#2) Not all men are technophyllic. (sp?)
#3) I am often an idiot.
I am just making a generalized comment in an attempt to illustrate a point.
If you were offended I am sorry, and I hope you accept my apology. (refer to item #3)
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
-- Interview with Jonathan Ive (designer of the iMac) --
Certainly, the PC industry has never revered design, preferring blocky
beige boxes or, more recently, coloured go-faster curves devoid of real
function. He's scornful of those who use 'swoopy shapes to look good,
stuff that is so aggressively designed, just to catch the eye. I think
that's arrogance, it's not done for the benefit of the user.'
By contrast, he says, 'you won't be able to find a single thing on an
Apple that hasn't had thought put into it'...
With the first iMac the goal wasn't to look different, but to build the
best integrated consumer computer we could. If as a consequence the shape
is different, then that's how it is. The thing is, it's very easy to be
different, but very difficult to be better. That's what we have tried to
do with the new iMac.'
(THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME, Interview with Jonathan Ive,
Charles Arthur talks to the designer of the iMac, January 14 2002)
From the
In the osnews.com article "From the overall eye-candy and better usability..."
Usability. It's something to do with looking pretty, right?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."