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Alternatives to Cars?
H0NGK0NGPH00EY asks: "I hate cars. -- Why in the heck am I lugging a giant steel box with me everywhere I go, and paying through the nose to make it go? Well, the main reason is because there aren't any affordable, viable alternatives. Are there?"
"I drive about 18 miles to work, mostly pseudo-highway (60mph, two-lane
road with two stop lights on the way). Too far to bike, or I would--during the summer months, at least. I would get a motorcycle, but in my mind, it's only better than a car on one count, it's size. It still uses gasoline, is dirty, noisy, and has too many moving parts. Plus they don't protect me from the weather.
I've looked into small, commuter electric vehicles. And I've come up largely empty-handed. Here's what I have found:
Corbin Motors' 'Sparrow'
As you may know, Corbin produced about 300 of these beauties before one of their largest investors called in his money, and forced them into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. There were a number of technical problems, and due to their scarcity they're a bit hard to come by now. Besides, who would want to spend $7,000 + on an un-supported vehicle?
Cree's 'SAM'
Basically the same as the Sparrow, but not available yet. The company has been around since 1996(!), and has just recently basically 're-started.' Who knows when, if ever, they'll have a marketable product, especially in the USA.
Commuter Cars' 'Tango'
A local guy with a dream. And a dang fine looking vehicle. But alas, also not in production in any real way, and only currently available in a $85,000 kit. He talks about a $20,000 mass-marketed version, but I'll believe it when I see it...
Nevco's 'Gizmo'
Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.
So, has anyone here had any better luck?"
I've looked into small, commuter electric vehicles. And I've come up largely empty-handed. Here's what I have found:
Corbin Motors' 'Sparrow'
As you may know, Corbin produced about 300 of these beauties before one of their largest investors called in his money, and forced them into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. There were a number of technical problems, and due to their scarcity they're a bit hard to come by now. Besides, who would want to spend $7,000 + on an un-supported vehicle?
Cree's 'SAM'
Basically the same as the Sparrow, but not available yet. The company has been around since 1996(!), and has just recently basically 're-started.' Who knows when, if ever, they'll have a marketable product, especially in the USA.
Commuter Cars' 'Tango'
A local guy with a dream. And a dang fine looking vehicle. But alas, also not in production in any real way, and only currently available in a $85,000 kit. He talks about a $20,000 mass-marketed version, but I'll believe it when I see it...
Nevco's 'Gizmo'
Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.
So, has anyone here had any better luck?"
"What are bicycles and public transportation, Alex?"
.@.
How bout a Segw~z^H@# NO CARRIER
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Son, you must be from one of them limp-wristed European countries. Hate your car?? Maybe you should go out and buy yourself a SUV, or, better yet, a pickup! You probably drive one of them wimpy four-cylinder toys that them other tree-hugger types have. Go on and ride your little bicycle to work. I'll be plenty happy in my four-door pickup.
- Bill
Unless you live in a major city in the US, there's no such thing as public transportation, and heck, in many large cities there isn't.
And, if you live in suburbia, it's just too far to ride a bike/walk.
The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant. Judging from the flames I've gotten in previous posts, I'll be conservative and say that this means that a Geo Metro or Toyota Echo or something will probably pollute less than your average CEV, depending on how your electricity is generated.
What would really work best is to carpool - never underestimate the gas/people ratio of a minivan full of 6-8 groggy people in business suits. It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper, too.
You can buy an older, used car for $3,000-5,000. If you learn to work on them yourself, you can save money on repairs and maintainence.
Sure, it won't be the shiniest, newest thing on the road, but you won't be shelling out $500 a month for a car payment, plus half that for full coverage insurance.
I drive a motorcycle to work every day. A 250cc bike gets more than 50 miles per gallon and is nice and flexible. Also, the insurance costs about $100 a year. For protection from the weather you can have a cowl, windshield, and rain gear. Stop whining because it's not everything a car is and do something to make things better. Besides, it's fun!
"I hate cars. --
Then why, do you have as the #1 thing on your 'wish list' on your website, a Chrysler PT Cruiser?
...but a substantial proportion of the population do live either in a major city *with* decent public transportation or within cycling distance of their place of work (say 5 miles). I'd even say a majority fall into one of these two categories (I'm in Europe.) That doesn't stop all of those people driving.
At least if you have a car, your transporation option can't be so easily shut down by greedy special interests. The greedy special interests, at worst, can boost the gas prices.
The post-WW2 era has resulted in communities that make cars just about mandatory. Occasionally a small town or city will ban cars from its city center, or create safe bike paths and pedestrian walkways, but those are exceptions. Most suburbanites don't like the idea of having any commercial activity whatever in their view, so that tends to put even the small local stores in strip malls on busy highways. That is not friendly to pedestrians or bicycles.
You have a choice where you live, and it is often possible to live within bicycle distance of work. With the money you save on a car each year, you come out ahead even if it costs a little more. Fortunately, many of the areas with computer jobs (Boston, New York, Bay Area, etc.) have good public transportation.
I would highly recommend investigating your locality's municipal transit system. Eighteen miles is a bit of distance on the bus, but it might be worth it.
Barring that, ask them about carpool and/or vanpool prospects.
This sig no verb.
Carpool -- gather a coworker on the same 9-5 who is within a few miles, and go with him.
Move closer -- do you rent an apt? Get one nextdoor to work, and then shazaaam, you can walk. (Hey, I live on campus, so this option works great for me)
Electric stuff is bogus now, and even the hybrids don't get good miles, apparently. (See article from recent month). A motorcycle would double your MPG, as might a small small econobox.
But hey, it seems human nature to live in one spot, and work in another. And my "move closer" option particularly sucks when work's metro area is eggggspensive.
terpmotors.com
I'm no fan of motorbikes, but this looks like it bypasses some of the problems wrt weather/safety etc.
BMW C1
...but there's not much I can do. I'm a college student who lives in the dorms, my hometown is in the sticks, and I usually work an internship someplace far off during the summer.
Public transportation won't help me get to bumfuck, Tennessee, and even if I could bike that far, I'm basically carrying around my entire life in the car.
Cars are indeed a pain in the ass. In addition to their sheer deadliness and eco-hostility, they require a ridiculous amount of maintenance, at least in my view.
Fuel the tank and air the tires and change the air filter and check the oil level and refill the brake fluid, top off the Watneys Red Barrel, and rotate the tires, etc.
Just really bloody annoying. Hopefully science will discover how to synthesize spice soon so we can just fold space.
vi ~/.emacs
http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/main/lite.htm
Mine is arriving on Monday.
I personally think that our car problem is due to the fact that more and more people live in suburbs or "ex-urbs" (nowhere near a city). The price we pay for each having our own blue heaven is population distribution, and thus the need for more and more highways and cars.
The solution for any individual is simple: move into a dense city and take public transportation or bike. You don't get to have a big house anymore, but you get a cohesive neighborhood and car-free living. Just depends on your priorities.
Take another look at motorcycles.
Actually you'll find that motorcycles get much, much better mileage than any car. Not only do they not use nearly as much gasoline, but look into some of the better brands of bikes and you'll find that their quiet, and clean, especially triumph, and BMWs. Not every bike is a hog.
You'll also find that motorcycles are quite mechanically simple, all the parts are easily accessible, making the bike easier to work on than a car. Also depending on where you work you may get a better parking spot from riding a bike.
As for when weather is bad, that's when you either break down and drive your car. Or a better solution is a revolving car pool with people who live near you. If you can't wrangle one with coworkers, try your local transit authority, they can usually help you find a carpool.
Well art is art isn't it, but then again water is water; and east is east; and west is west; and if you take cranberries
Try a motorcycle ?
Or perhaps a Skycar
The answer: get a rocket pack!
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
If you can get rid of your card, that's great and it will save you money (keep in mind that you also can always rent something if you need it). But I wouldn't fixate on trying to get rid of the car.
It is probably more important in the short term to reduce fuel consumption, traffic, and congestion. You can do that by buying a more fuel efficient car and by living closer to work. Smaller cars tend to be more fuel efficient, are easier to park, and should also help a little with congestion. I wouldn't even limit myself to hybrids--there are a number of gasoline cars that are more fuel efficient and cheaper, and I'm not convinced that, at this point, the environmental impact of hybrids is actually better than of a fuel-efficient gasoline car.
It's better if people start taking practical smaller steps now than if they keep waiting for some big technological fix.
The problem arises from having to take a highway, car alternatives are unfortunatly generaly not up to car speeds. If you could find an alternate route with a slower speed limit i would suggest this. After a while 18 miles will be nothing on a recumbant, and a covered one like that reduces drag (you can fly on those things) and protects you from the rain.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
This site has some pretty good info on electric-assisted bicycles, though it gets into a bit of silly rhetoric: Electric Bikes Northwest
OK, silly subject headers aside -- electric cars may be quiet and clean, but they're usually not as energy efficient as they may seem. A good economy car can usually rival an electric car in terms of energy efficency...and they just wreck them in terms of cost (cheaper to purchase -- due to higher production volume and the use of cheaper materials, and definitely cheaper to own -- more moving parts, but parts are made from heavier, cheaper materials, and are available in higher volume and thus, the costs are reduced).
Motorcycles can be loud, and they can be smelly, but they're probably some of the most fuel efficient vehicles on the road. I've seen 60 MPG on an old ~600cc bike pretty consistently. I don't know what a newer bike can do, but they may be better. However, there are also the issues of weather protection and cargo space...but you were the one who didn't want a big steel box, so you may be out of luck if you want weather protection and cargo capacity in any suitable vehicle (unless you want a carbon fiber monocoque car...bling bling, baby).
It sounds like you're going to have a hard time finding transportation that you're happy with. Have you considered carpooling to work?
-Turkey
I have a slightly longer commute, so when I recently bought a new car I looked into gas mileage. I found the Scion xB. I am currently averaging just over 30 mpg. The xA is supposed to have better gas mileage, but I am over 6 feet tall (1.98m for the uncivilized world) and the xA did not quite have the head room for me. The most amazing thing to me is that I can sit upright in the xB with space above my head. The xB is not the prettiest car on the block, but it doesn't look like every other car on the block either. It's less the $15,000 to start and best yet it is owned by the Toyota Motor Group, like Lexus, so you know the somebody will be around to take care of you for some time.
This signiture copied from somewhere.
From the submission:
Too far to bike, or I would--during the summer months, at least.
What about, "What are 'lack of reading comprehension' Alex?"
You probably shouldn't click this.
I personally haven't owned a car since 1986. I did own a motorbike for two years but sold it off and went back to bicycles when I noticed I was starting to get fat.
:)
I bicycle year 'round, never have to worry about exercising; get lots of excitement dodging cars, peds and cougars; and, at 49 I'm in better shape than most everyone else I see except for younger bicyclists.
It's doable: dress apropriately for the weather, put fenders on the bicycle, and always be ultra-aware when on the road -- the cars try to kill you from all directions.
Also consider moving closer to your work.
Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
Though I've never been to the United States, it sounds like public transport infrastructure is less than desirable from the second hand reports I get.
Isn't this sufficient grounds to be an advocate and lobbyist for more public transport.
Why look to new technology for alternatives, when the real problem is the underutilation of existant technology.
I was involved in lobbying for a train station to be built at the University of Newcastle in Australia. It was built the year I left, but it opened up public transport as a viable means of transport for thousands of students who lived further up the valley and were filling the roads with cars.
Others have said this, but I'll emphasize. If you're serious about not worrying about a car, your best bet is to find a job and a living situation that are in reasonable proximity.
Think of it this way: we've reached a point in American society where people have built lives around the privately-owned automobile. If you don't want to conform, you're going to have to instead build your life around a completely different set of instructions.
Remember that your job and your home are only two destinations that you're going to want to travel to. You're going to need groceries, for instance, and access to other businesses.
I live in downtown Baltimore without a car, and there are groceries, shopping, restaurants, entertainment venues, etc. all within walking distance of my apartment. I work in DC, so each morning I walk 5 blocks to the train station and catch the commuter train into DC and then transfer to the METRO to reach my office. I wake up at 6 am and I'm at my desk by 8:20. My commuter rail pass is $150 per month, using my student discount.
Remember that there are other transportation methods you can use besides walking: taxi cabs, rental cars, public transportation. Mix and match these alternatives to get to where you need to go when you need to get there.
But it still remains that if your location doesn't have the infrastructure and business density to support your ambition, then you need to move if you're serious. Build your life around not having a car.
You say you've ruled out bikes, but have you looked into recumbent bikes as an alternative? They're a lot less effort than the normal kind, and you can get varying levels of weatherproofing too. I presume you don't need *that* much where you are because those mini vehicles don't look like they'd be cosy at 30 below.
There's also the electric bike option, and you can even get bikes that are both recumbent and electric, which would really take the strain away.
You should also look into working from home of course - the most economic journeys are the ones you don't make.
You can't have the best of both worlds.
... I'm too far off from dowtown and public transit blows.
:) The more people are interested in ditching their cars, the sooner cities will be forced to upgrade their public transit systems.
In the city I live in (Montreal), there is amazing public transportation. It would be a blatant waste of cash to park your car for $80/month downtown.. plus god knows how much in gas.
Obviously the response is "Waaaa waaaaa" in the city I live in
Well.. there people that pick the places they live in with transportation in mind. You can't expect society to bend to your will, because you need to subbornly live where you live.
If I suddently got a job opportunity in Austin Texas (I'm a software devel), the first thing I would be asking is how much are they paying me, and is there a good transit system to get me to work.. or a car pool.. or something.
You can kiss your $10 raise goodbye otherwise.
Basically I'm saying.. move to a better place, heck you might even make some money in real estate in the process
Love, Zaq
Let's say you can work at home 4 days a week
4 days x 36 miles a day = 144 a week / 30mpg (dont' know what car you have) =~ 20 gallons a week at $2/gal
/bin/fortune | slashdotsig.sh
Go for a hybrid fuel/battery car. Thats the best option for you.
-- I don't buy it, I grow it.
Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.
You want it to seat more than one, but you don't want a "giant steel box"? You want it to go more than 45 mph, but you don't want it to have "too many moving parts".
And 12,000 is too steep?
I guess that's why nobody is trying to make these cars. People like you may profess to want them - but aren't willing to compromise anything or pay a reasonable amount.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
There's only one way to get something that exists other than waiting for the market to turn around. That's to do it yourself.
Search on google ( I forget URLS ) and you will find people who have converted real motorcycles from gas to electricity. Get some batteries and some decent electric motors and read some mechanical/electrical engineering books and you're all set. You can save lots of money by buying a dead motorcycle instead of a brand new one.
Don't expect to be able to get anything more than a ride to work with one of these though. You will be hard pressed to find anything that will get you to work and back without charging it up at either end. You could also be adventurous and try to special order fuel cells. How much charge it holds, how powerful the motors are and how heavy the bike is will probably be the 3 factors that determine your mileage and speed. Do lots of research.
Oh yeah, don't live in a state where you have to get inspection on your bike when you get license plates for it. Chances of it getting through are iffy.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I don't know about that, I know in my day I used to walk in 3 feet of snow/rain/100 degree heat to work...uphill both ways. It was tough, but we survived.
Hmm, good call. It was mainly because I admire the visual style of the PT Cruiser. Of course, I also know that no one who may buy me gifts (family or friends) is going to buy me a $20,000 car, so it was mainly up there as a joke.
:^)
But, since you mentioned it, I have changed it.
Do not read this sig.
Well, there's this.
Unfortunately still concept only, prototypes but no production. However, they seem to be getting closer, although their main focus ATM seems to be companies with vehicle fleets, such as courier companies.
I know I want one.
|>
Here be Dragons
where I live (population ~1 Million) we have "public transportation." Well, almost. Almost none to be specific. Now, I don't mind walking; but, the nearest bus stop is actually farther than my place of business. And that's 2.5 miles from my apartment.
I think too often environmentalists overlook the absolute utility of having a car.
It's big, but its comfortable. It is easy to drive in all types of weather. (Try biking in snow.) It is available whenever you need it. It is actually pretty cheap if you want it to be. They are well-understood devices that are easy to maintain (you can rotate the tires, change the oil, and do all sorts of stuff yourself with just a few tools.) You can carry luggage or more passengers with ease.
People have wanted a car (abbreviations for carriage) ever since they got tired of riding horses. They've built first chariots and later buggies and finally enclosed carriages. When the motor was invented, they got rid of the messy and unhygienic horses and replaced it with the much cleaner and more powerful engine.
I think people tend to emphasize the downsides of owning a car without realizing the benefits. With a car, anywhere in the United States is accessible in hours. You are free to go anywhere you like whenever you like without having to ask for permission or wait for a bus to show up. You enjoy comfort in cold, hot, wet, or snowy weather.
What are the downsides for this freedom? A bit of pollution, a higher price tag than most other things you own, and the risk of getting into a collision.
As for me, until a better solution that is more versatile and useful comes out, I'll be holding on to my cars.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
In New York (where I live) you don't have to own a car to be a first class citizen, unlike much of the rest of the US. In fact, the Mayor (a Billionair CEO Republican) rides Mass Transit himself.
I've never owned a car. They stink. I bike and walk, and ride mass transit. Oh, and I'm an adult with a young child, so don't give me that lame "but I have a child" excuse.
I live in a major city in the UK, and we have public transport, so your generalisation of no public transport outside of US major cities is wrong.
I was about to write a post here flaming the guy for 'hating cars'. Then I remembered the $2.50 per gallon gas price here in California. Now I'm thinking "More power to ya, man!"
"Derp de derp."
The reason for using electric vehicles right now is not that they consume less energy, it's that they pollute less at the location where they are used. That's important because cities have real air quality problems, and that's a reason why so many cities use electric vehicles.
In the long term, electric or hydrogen powered vehicles also have the potential advantage that whatever CO2 is generated during energy production can be sequestered away, rather than being released into the atmosphere. Also, once you have switched to electric or hydrogen, you have a much wider choice of energy sources (e.g., solar becomes an option; it isn't if you burn gasoline).
more efficient than cars in terms on environment friendlyness
and $$.
And so far they do not have buggy S/W installed on them.
I have a Suzuki Savage 650 something of a starter bike.
I intend to upgrade in a few months :-)
And get > 40 mpg, 50 if you do all highway, but with the added benefit of things like a radio, a trunk, seatbelts, and your life if you ever get into a crash.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
This is a very good point -- if you start thinking of your milage in terms of "person-miles" per gallon (PMPGs) then it really quickly makes alot of sense to carpool. A huge SUV @ 10 mpg with 4 passengers gets better PMPGs than almost any single-occupant vehicle. With email, PDA's, cell phones, etc..., flexible car pool management is easier than ever too. Plus, you might make some new friends in the process.
Move to Europe. Good public transport, good for bikes, shorter commutes (generally), businesses more spread out... USA is made for cars. And that sucks.
-Lars
Well there is always the segway. Does anyone on slashdot use one, my local post office bought one and I think they still use it.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
A few responses to the comments so far:
... depending on how your electricity is generated.
... Stop whining because it's not everything a car is and do something to make things better.
:)
"What are bicycles and public transportation, Alex?"
As I stated in the submission, bicycles aren't really an option. Not only the distance, but I live in the Seattle area, so there are a number of rather daunting hills along my 18 mile commute. As far as public transportation goes, I have looked into that, but commuting from Kenmore to Monroe by bus would take over an hour, and require three bus changes. There just aren't any routes that run directly between the two.
The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant.
As stated above, I live in Seattle, so the majority of our electricity comes from the dams. Almost certainly cleaner than burning a gallon of gas every 30 miles.
You can buy an older, used car for $3,000-5,000. If you learn to work on them yourself, you can save money on repairs and maintainence.
I already have an older used car, that I only paid $2000 for six years ago. And, I already do work on it myself. The point isn't just the cost, but the waste of space and fuel. Even though I get 30mpg, it still feels like a waste.
suck it up and get a motorcycle.
First, who's whining? Second, I'm not prepared to take the risks associated with a motorcycle. Too many drivers are blind to them, and here in Seattle, the weather is not very friendly to motorcycles for much of the year. Believe me, there are tempting aspects of motorcycles, but they don't hold enough advantages over my cheap clunker car to woo me to them.
Then why, do you have as the #1 thing on your 'wish list' on your website, a Chrysler PT Cruiser?
See above. Good point, and I have changed it. (^_^)
Yes, rideshare. Carpool, vanpool, bus, train, SOMETHING where there is another driver.
I'm actually working on that. Working way out in sticks, most people at my small company (less than 2 dozen employees) come from different directions than me, or work different hours than me. One person comes from my direction, and we're working out a plan to carpool at least a few days a week, even though we usually work different hours than each other.
Basically I'm saying.. move to a better place, heck you might even make some money in real estate in the process
Hmm, not likely, considering two factors: 1) I don't own a house. 2) I'm only paying $250 a month for the two-bedroom I'm at now. Again, given that I'm living in the greater Seattle area, moving would be an incredibly foolish financial decision.
Do not read this sig.
Is tele-commuting an option? nice DSL line with a VPN into the company? Saves you using any sort of transportation at all.
T.
You will be in a fiberglass 'box' instad of a steel one.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I started riding motorcycle 'bout 3 years ago. My first one was a BMW F650GS. Gave me about 4.2 liters / 100km (even with heay riding, maxing the speedo out at 160km/h). Dirty? Comes standard with a catalytic converter. Only dirty part was that chain, that needed to be lubed regularly. Noisy? Not really. Heck, in Europe even the Harleys are silent :-). Cold? Mind you, Johannesburg's winters may be not as harsh as other places, rarely goes below 0C, but those heated handlebars come in quite handy from May to Sept. The great thing: it's a real rush hour beater. My commute is about 40 km, and in Johannesburg's insane traffic, it still takes me no more than 45-50 minutes.
Then again, feet have proven quite sufficient for thousands of years :-p
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
Well I get to save a trip to the gym that is at least 45 minutes, plus I get to look at the pelicans in the bay on my way to work rather than the idiot that didn't know how to merge this morning
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
Funnily enough, just before i read your rant i heared a report on the radio about public transportation in Switzerland and especially Zürich. According to the report, Zürich has europes busiest public transportation system, so the obvious answer to your question is: move to Zürich. AFAIK you can also buy and smoke pot there, legally. Obviously you shouldn't drive stoned, so the two features cleverly complement each other ;)
Free as in mason.
Once we start using the CO2 producing vehicles, we'll have more screams about global warming blah blah blah.
Face it, no matter what you do, someone will scream about it... So do what I do, tell everyone to PISS-OFF!
Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm going down to get a grease burger at McDonalds in my 1962 Buick Invicta that has NO polution controls. MU-HAHA HAHAHAHA!
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
I would get a motorcycle, but in my mind, it's only better than a car on one count, it's size. It still uses gasoline, is dirty, noisy, and has too many moving parts. Plus they don't protect me from the weather.
You are complaining about the wrong things and to the wrong people. It is possible to build a quite motorcycle, but I'll let you in on dirty little secret. They wouldn't sell. Those that buy motorcycles like big, noisy, powerful machines. Motorcycles can go up to 180 mph easy and still get great mpg. Motorcycles will always be dangerous than regular cars though, because they have a smaller footprint. If someone could make a holographic projector for a motorcycle that made it appear the size of a semi, then motorcycles would be just as safe as a car. The problem is if an idiot in a car hits a motorcycle the person on the motorcycle will usually always end up very broken if not dead. Idiots in cars can crash into each other without too much problems as long as its not head on. There are so many safety features in todays cars that the idiots will survive and breed. Motorcycles aren't that noisy. Motorcycles just don't filter out all the noise around you so you hear alot more.
Used cars cost lots more in repairs and unless you're a serious mechanic you aren't going to be fixing things such as blown head gaskets and dead transmissions.
The most affordable thing to do is buy a $20,000 Japanese car and run it into the ground. You can put 200,000 miles on it easy and you probably wouldn't have any major repairs until way past the 100,000 mark.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
With a short commute it might be fine but with a serious commute the chance of being seriously injured approches 100%.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
However, CO2 is a very weak greenhouse gas. It's only important because we produce so much of it. In any case, it doesn't cause acid rain like gasoline fumes.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
No really. Help bring them back. Here in boston.ma.us we had them all over. Bring them back, and then you won't have to worry anymore :-D
It's cheap and if you get into an accident, you just mold it back into shape.
-- Fugacity: Confusing chemists since 1908
That's my commuting vehicle of choice, but there are lots of decent motorcycles to choose from. Get a good helmet, Gore-Tex boots and gloves, an Aerostich suit, and you're all set for almost any weather. Take the MSF and/or Pridmore classes to learn defensive riding skills.
A K75S in good shape will cost $3,000 - $5,000, and you can find them for less on eBay.
Look here for the latest news on the sparrow:o m/
http://www.phoenixenvironmentalmotors.c
Anyway, I agree with others that a motorcycle is a good way to go. Rain isn't a problem if you dress for it, same with cold, ice is a problem though.
You don't want to carry a cage around with you, well a bike is as close to a car minus the cage as you can get, and they're easier to maintain too.
Some people really hate bikes because they're "too dangerous", my response is that they're overall safer. If you drive a car then your making yourself safer at the expense of whoever you might run into, suvs even more so. If your on a bike you'll cause less damage to whatever you might hit, at the risk of more damage to yourself. So motorcycling is more socially responsible. It also automatically makes you more accountable for your own actions. If you drive like an idiot then your putting yourself at risk for more on a bike then in a car, and thus more likely to feel the direct results of your actions.
If you get a bike, do it right, take the MSF course and drive safely. There's enough idiot motorcyclists around making a bad name for all of us.
Another good option is an old VW diesel. They get 40-50mpg. Forget the prius, I'd love to see a diesel hybrid on the market. If you think diesel's too dirty, then burn biodiesel. It may not be the ideal solution, but it's a step in the right direction.
I have to drive 30 miles to work on some of the most congested roads. Without traffic, it takes 30 minuts, on a day with a avgerage-substantial amount of traffic it takes 1:45.
This has me seriously looking into helicopters. You can get them about about $20,000, but the licensing and all will cost another 50k.
There are some 1-person ultra small helicopters that you don't need a license for, these are ~50k, but don't need a license. The smaller ones have much smaller rotors, and I could land them in the parking lot at work. I'd still have to fill up the same amount and on the same scedule though. So no gas savings, but I get 2-3 hours of my day back.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
And it feeds the trees!
I'm as mimsy as the next borogove but your mome raths are completely outgrabe.
Once we start using the CO2 producing vehicles, we'll have more screams about global warming blah blah blah.
Ummm--both internal combustion engines and electric vehicles produce CO2, and, yes, that is a serious problem for global warming. Electric vehicles hold the promise that the CO2 that is produced can be sequestered rather than released into the atmosphere.
Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm going down to get a grease burger at McDonalds
Please make it a triple grease burger--you'll kill yourself faster that way.
in my 1962 Buick Invicta that has NO polution controls. MU-HAHA HAHAHAHA!
Fortunately, there are so few of those clunkers left that it isn't a big pollution problem anymore. Otherwise, voters would get rid of them.
you can buy a $5,000 honda with 100k on it, replace the timing belt and STILL put 200,000 MORE miles on it.
I follow the SDK and GDN principles.. Spelling Dont Kount, Grammer Dont Neither
Obviously you don't ride a motorcycle. I have been commuting in Houston on a motorcycle for many, many years without an incident. I take the MSF (Motorcycle Safety Class) about once a year, I ALWAYS ride with gear (full face helmet, gloves, Kevlar shirt or jacket and pants, and boots), and ride rain or shine, and let me tell you it rains a LOT here in Houston (30+ inches a year). I drive like I am invisible, plan as far ahead as I can, and I LOVE MY RIDE every day! I'm getting 40+ mpg and had been commuting 60+ miles a day through downtown Houston, but one big advantage of a bike is it will get you on the HOV lane in major cities. If you are headed the same way as traffic wave to the folks in cars as you slide by them. Total cost of ownership of a bike is much less than a car, you can get a fabulous bike (DON'T GET A HARLEY, you have been warned!) for under $8000 new, and add a rain suit, helmet and clothes (you can get very nice looking gear that you can wear to work without being obvious), maybe another $2000 to be generous. Don't skimp on a helmet, get the best you can. Ride to Work day is July 17. http://www.ridetowork.org has info on it. The added visibility and maneuverability along with good training can make you a safe rider for life, and if you are like me you won't drive a card unless you have to, like going out with the family, or shopping for something that REALLY won't fit in the bike. You'd be surprised at how much you can take on one.
The Fascination
:)
(obligatory) you insensitive clod!
"This engine is a closed two-cycle reciprocating engine that has no intake, uses no air, emitting no exhaust at all... The fuel is self-contained and hermetically sealed in the cylinders which are initially charged at the time of manufacturing, carrying their own power supply that will last approximately 60 to 75 thousand miles with no fall of efficiency."
-- I have monkeys in my pants.
It's really nice since I don't have a car I'm able to afford a great apartment in downtown Seattle that is ten times better then anything I could afford if I had to worry about the expenses that come with ownership. I don't have to worry about finding parking or worry about leaving it out on a street for anyone to do evil things with it. If I need to be somewhere more immediately than public trans. I just take a cab, the cost is negotiable with the fact that I'm already saving money every day by not having a car.
The one problem that I have found is in grocery shopping, big supermarkets don't thrive downtown in any city I've known, and you always have to be thinking about weight ratios w/o a big SUV sitting in the parking lot, What's worse is trying to shop for food at the small convenience/grocery stores it can get quite expensive. But with internet grocery shopping getting better that's becoming a none point
Artist will always make art.
I call BS. My family does not even know how to change the oil in our cars. We still average far, far, far less than US $500 per month in repair bills. In fact I would estimate that our repair bill rairly tops a $250 per month average. And that is for three cars all with more than 100K miles each: 88 Cady, 89 Delta88, and a 91 Lexus. We rarly have any problems, and when we do our mechanic fixes them for a reasonable rate and usualy within a couple of days.
I am building a recumbent electric vehicle, built from bike parts. So far, I have the majority of the vehicle complete. I still need to mount the motor, attach the chain, get the batteries hooked up (I am also thinking about a motor controller, but I will probably go with a simple high-current relay at first - motor controllers aren't cheap). Later, I will need to get low-tread tires (more tread=more drag=lower efficiency=less miles per charge). If the motor works out (pretty powerful for its size), I also need new bearings installed on it.
It has been a very fun project. Google around for "electric bicycle" and "homemade recumbent" for other ideas. I had originally thought about using a chainsaw/weed trimmer engine - but due to noise and other reasons, decided against it. If you did use such an engine, try to get a 4-cycle. It will be more expensive, but it runs quieter, and there is no mixing of oil/fuel - plue it is easy to port the carb on such an engine so that it can run on propane (basically, the ports are driller larger, and a regulator is installed).
I also like the idea of electric, because of the possibility (if they ever get here with it) of using scavenged "laptop fuel cells" to generate the power needed. Another idea would be to scavenge parts from cheap gopeds (both gas and electric) that litter the market today (many engines and motors are sold on ebay all the time).
There is also the option of buying an electric bike, then either using it as-is, or stripping it down and rebuilding it as a recumbent...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Without wanting to bang a rather tedious drum, I would suggest that cars perhaps predominate in the US due to the hidden subsidies that are given to oil industry, such as the enormous military expenditure needed to maintain a stability of oil producing states.
Yes, it's quite true it would require a change of mindset to move people toward public transport, but I suppose that's no different to the paradigmatic change needed to move to open source.
I was just discussing this very same thing with my wife earlier today. As a person with very poor eyesight, I can't get a license and thus, my wife has to shuttle me everywhere I go. I do have a bicycle but that simply doesn't work for a lot of things. What do you guys recommend for someone who wants good speed (30-50 mph is fine) but doesn't require a license?
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
Bzzzzz. Actually, no, they don't. The powerplants may or may not; nuclear powerplants don't. Solar doesn't. Biomass fuelled powerplants don't.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"So like it or not, in less populated areas of the US, a car isn't really a luxary as much as it is a necessity.
And in said less populated areas cars don't cause congestion, and because they *aren't* causing congestion are much more efficient and don't damage the environment half as much. Cars make a lot of sense in such areas; the problem is cars in major cities where they are causing much more of a problem, and where there are alternatives.
Is the way to go! If I win the lottery I promise to develop one.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
in the US, there's no such thing as public transportation
... Both in Cambridge (Massachussets, I was visiting MIT) and Berlin, there are some trains marked with a wheelchair-accessible symbol, but there's still a 6 inch gap from platform to train.
... but the ramp is chained to the train in a place where you can't reach it in a wheelchair from the platform, and the button to call the conductor is too far as well. Then, imagine that you've never learned the word for "wheelchair ramp" in your 3 years of high school German, and you'll understand how screwed up it is. (That last part obviously didn't apply in Cambridge).
Especially if you're in a wheelchair. Although that's not just a US problem
Now, what you're supposed to do is use a ramp that is put in place by hand
Assuming public transport is not an option...
That box of steel you lug around protects you from the weather - something neither a motorcycle nor a bicycle can do. One solution might be to get a minimalst "econo-box" of a car.
If your not lugging a bunch of extra stuff with you and there are no serious hills, 18 miles really isn't that bad on a good bicycle. If you do have to lug stuff, check out http://www.breezerbikes.com/
Although, with the latter option, you're looking at an hour and a half commute, at least until you start to get used to the ride.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
As an avid cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that 18 miles is not too far for a bicycle. After a month of commuting by bike, you'll find that distance (36 miles per day round trip) is like nothing. Of course this depends on terrain -- if the roads are dangerous or extremely mountainous, or if the weather is bad, it might not be practical. But the distance isn't a problem. I can haul my sorry 40 year old butt along at over 20 MPH on flat terrain, and 16-17 MPH in the mountains -- indefinately. You can too.
In the city I live in (Montreal), there is amazing public transportation. It would be a blatant waste of cash to park your car for $80/month downtown.. plus god knows how much in gas.
:o)
You missed the #1 reason not to drive in Montreal - Montreal drivers.
Basically I'm saying.. move to a better place, heck you might even make some money in real estate in the process :)
;)
;)
:)
Hmm, not likely, considering two factors: 1) I don't own a house. 2) I'm only paying $250 a month for the two-bedroom I'm at now. Again, given that I'm living in the greater Seattle area, moving would be an incredibly foolish financial decision.
I hear you, but to truly be car free, a lifestyle change is kinda required.
I still own a car now, but I no longer use it much. I recently moved to a new town and am living downtown, right where the action is. My workplace is across the street. Bars/Movies/Entertainment is between 0-4 blocks away depending on the entertainment involved. Groceries are downstairs at a mini-market (slightly more expensive, but not too bad, really).
Essentially, think of all the stuff you need, and pick an area where all that stuff is. A lot of downtown districts are trying to pick up their economy by moving in business and residental and such like this.
It works like this.. way back before good transportation, people lived in small groups, in small areas. Nearly everything you needed was in that area. As transportation became cheaper and faster, the trend became to live in one area and work in another. This leads to the need for more transportation to move goods around and such.
Public transportation slightly ameliorates this need, but the state of public transportation in most places is just short of non-existent. If you were lucky enough to have good public transportation, you wouldn't be asking this question.
Anyway, the only alternative is to move to a location that's going back to the older, smaller community, sort of ways. Obviously this is dictated by the location of your workplace, since people don't often have a lot of choice in where they work these days. Look around that area. If there's nothing there, then my advice is to either find a new job or stop complaining about having to have a vehicle.
Electric cars are not an answer to the problem, BTW. Think about it.. Are you really complaining about cost factors involved (electrics won't be competitive in that arena anytime soon), or are you complaining about the need for the transportation in the first place? Do you really like having to drive to get to anywhere? I didn't. That's why when I found a job that offered a possibility of a location where I could walk to get *everything* I need to live (and no more than 4 blocks for any of it), I jumped on the chance. Been living here about 2 months now, and probably will be here a long, long time. I simply love living close to everything.
Okay, the nearest good electronics store is 20 miles away, but I can make a pilgrimage every few weeks.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
"The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant."
Where do you get this shit? It's all documented right here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
...and you're just plain wrong!
"Hmm, not likely, considering two factors: 1) I don't own a house. 2) I'm only paying $250 a month for the two-bedroom I'm at now. Again, given that I'm living in the greater Seattle area, moving would be an incredibly foolish financial decision."
You might want to rethink this a little, if not for right now, then in the future. $250/month is really cheap for Seattle, but...
Think about keeping the money you have saved for this vehicle purchase, and putting it toward a downpayment on a house or condo very close to work. Your mortgage may be more expensive than your current rent, even 2-3 times, but you'll be trading both your current rent *and* most of your commuting expenses for an equity-building mortgage payment, instead of throwing all of that away. Consider the rest of the difference to be forced savings, plus the opportunity to take advantage of real estate appreciation (which may be slowing down, but still there for the forseeable future, IMO).
This is what I'd do, unless I knew my current job was only temporary -- less than 2 years.
[electric vehicles produce CO2] Actually, no, they don't.
You seem to have trouble with the English language. The statement "Electric vehicles produce CO2." does not mean the same thing as "Electric vehicles must necessarily and always produce CO2."
But since understanding English in context seems difficult for you, let me spell it out for you: "If you live in the US and replace a fuel-efficient gasoline powered automobile with an electric passenger vehicle of equivalent carrying capacity and maximum speed and you charge the electric vehicle through the public power grid, with high probability, you will increase the amount of CO2 that you generate by using that vehicle for equivalent numbers of miles driven."
Bzzzzz.
Are you also suffering from Tourette's?
Buddy, if you think an hour commute is bad you gots some learning comming. I take a bus, a train, and another train to work every day just going from one part of the city to another. Takes me 45-70 minutes each way. At first I was thinking that was such a loss of time. Then I realized I'm GAINING 2 hours a day to spend reading, thinking, whatever I want. Time I have all to myself without wife or family.
Over all, I think your original submission was a troll. From your responses it sounds like you have actually NOTHING to complain about in the world. You have a job, rent that is lower than what I have paid for JUST a parking spot, and are in "hipsville." Let me guess you are also twenty somthing, have all your hair, no kids, a girlfriend, and a disposable income?
This was GOOD troll mind you, rather thought provoking and mildly informative but still a troll. Call back when you have a real problem like the poor guy who is in sooo deep he is asking for advice from SLAHSDOT (??!?!?) about schizophenia.
No, it's very easy. Actually, I understand it exceptionally well, being my first language.
"If you live in the US ..."
Ah! Now I understand you're an American. You have my condolences; clearly if you had learnt English in England, as I, then you would have been able to express yourself more clearly.
Electric cars will not be exclusively deployed in the USA, and power station technology varies temporally/spatially even there.
and you charge the electric vehicle through the public power grid, with high probability, you will increase the amount of CO2 that you generate
Not if you live near a hydroelectric plant, for example Vegas or Niagara; but I wouldn't expect an ignorant American such as yourself to know that kind of detail.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"That site only talks about hydrogen fuel cells and gas-burning vehicles (including HEV's)
/ pdf/ElecVehicle(Funk&Rabl1999).pdf
These are not the same as CEV's (commuter electric vehicles), which are sort of like golf carts on steroids.
Anyway, here's a source: http://www-cenerg.ensmp.fr/francais/themes/impact
The gist is that if you're talking about damage to a local area and not considering pollution where the CEV's electricity is generated, they barely justify themselves. (And yes, they do consume more energy per person per mile than a car (diesel or gasoline) with only one passenger.) It's harder to make conclusions after you count in pollution at the site of power generation and have them apply to the USA since France's power grid is much more nuclear-heavy.
Only an Hour Comute!! You Whiney Bastard!
Buddy, if you think an hour commute is bad you gots some learning comming.
First off, my commute averages 27 minutes, not an hour. I won't move into a place, no matter what the savings in rent, if it results in more than a half hour commute. Secondly, I never said my commute was bad. I said that I hate cars. Those are very different.
Takes me 45-70 minutes each way. At first I was thinking that was such a loss of time. Then I realized I'm GAINING 2 hours a day to spend reading, thinking, whatever I want. Time I have all to myself without wife or family.
Fine, I'm glad you see it that way. Personally, I enjoy spending time with my wife. Time spent commuting is lost time with the people I care most about.
Over all, I think your original submission was a troll. From your responses it sounds like you have actually NOTHING to complain about in the world. You have a job, rent that is lower than what I have paid for JUST a parking spot, and are in "hipsville." Let me guess you are also twenty somthing, have all your hair, no kids, a girlfriend, and a disposable income?
Actually, I am twenty-something, have all my hair and no kids, but I think my wife might be a bit upset if I had a girlfriend, and I manage to "dispose" of most of my income (including the money I'm saving on rent) by making ridiculously large payments on the $40,000 in student loans that my wife and I had when we got married. But I digress. What on Earth does this have to do with my simple desire to find an affordable, viable alternative to cars???
This was GOOD troll mind you, rather thought provoking and mildly informative but still a troll. Call back when you have a real problem like the poor guy who is in sooo deep he is asking for advice from SLAHSDOT (??!?!?) about schizophenia.
I asked a simply stated, technically-oriented question of a group of individuals who are assumed to be largely tech-savvy. You responded with name-calling, stereo-typing, and a holier-than-thou attitude. I wonder who the real troll is? And again, I don't have a "problem" and I'm not "complaining." I'm just curious to know the status of alternative, individual transportation.
In closing: Lighten up!
You probably shouldn't click this.
BIOMASS doesn't produce CO2? What the fuck are you smoking? Biomass is simply the combustion of naturaly occouring fuels, such as methane, the only difference between biomass and fossil fuels is that biomass is more quickly replenished. Now personaly I feel this is a good thing. But know what you're talking about before you open your pie hole
That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
I take responsibility for the above comment. That'll teach me to sit down at a computer and post something without seeing who is logged in first. *blushes*
Do not read this sig.
I take responsibility for the above comment. That'll teach me to sit down at a computer and post something without seeing who is logged in first. *blushes*
Do not read this sig.
No, it's very easy. Actually, I understand it exceptionally well, being my first language.
Your problem isn't with English per se, it is with what linguists call pragmatics (also here). Some disorders cause deficits in pragmatics, but many people also just pretend to have problems with pragmatics when rational arguments fail them. I suspect you fall into the latter category, although autism or Asperger's are always a possibility on Slashdot.
You have my condolences; clearly if you had learnt English in England, as I, then you would have been able to express yourself more clearly.
British English uses pragmatics to the same degree as American English. This is fortunate, because otherwise already long-winded British snobs would have an excuse never to shut up.
Not if you live near a hydroelectric plant, for example Vegas or Niagara; but I wouldn't expect an ignorant American such as yourself to know that kind of detail.
My statement is and remains correct, both as a probabilistic statement and because the US actually has a nationwide grid. Sorry if you just don't get any of that.
A lot of mechanical work, but you can convert a car to electric.
Mother Earth News published a few articals on it back in the 1980s or there abouts. Lindsay Sells some books on conversion, with a note that you want modern conversion technology as it is better than what they had a few years ago.
Biomass is fuel produced by growing stuff, usually plants. (Fossil fuels, including methane deposits, are *not* classed as biomass).
Because the plants absorb CO2 as they grow- there is *no* net increase in the CO2 in the atmosphere when this matter is burnt; CO2 went down as it grew, it came back when it was burnt.
But know what you're talking about before you open your pie hole
Always good advice, right back at you.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"No, the only problem here is that you screwed up, and I pointed it out, and it upset you being proved wrong. Your feeble attempts at ad-hominen attacks and pathetic attempts of diagnoses of mental illnesses are very transparent; and frankly says more about your mental state.
My point is, and remains, that electric cars do not produce any CO2 during their operation. Whether or not the power plant that charges them produces some is an entirely separate question. This compares sharply with conventional vehicles which inevitably produce CO2 during their operation; a point you were deliberately, but should not be, blurred.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"2 folding chair, an ironing board, and three bags of groceries on a honda rebel with no saddle bags, thank you very much!
Once the snow flies I rarely touch my car and opt to take my snowmobile instead. Way more fun to drive, and actually designed for the conditions winter bestows upon us, unlike the automobile.
Unfortunately it's not a very good alternative to the car because it's totally dependant on the snow (if you even get snow). And if fuel prices are your concern this is not the vehicle for you. 15MPG if you're lucky, not to mention the oil that it uses.
Change your font COLOR!!!
Bicycle (motorized bicycle?) part of the way and catch a ride for the remainder.
gewg_
My point is, and remains, that electric cars do not produce any CO2 during their operation. Whether or not the power plant that charges them produces some is an entirely separate question.
Yes, and that was what this discussion was about, since I myself pointed out that electric vehicles are advantageous because conventional power plants that generate the electricity for electric vehicles can sequester the CO2 so that it doesn't get released, and because it permits the switch to cleaner energies in the long run. That is the meaning of the term "produce" that was in use during this discussion.
No, the only problem here is that you screwed up, and I pointed it out, and it upset you being proved wrong.
No, the problem is that you quote out of context and don't follow a discussion. You "correct" and "buzz" people even though you actually agree on the facts.
Your feeble attempts at ad-hominen attacks and pathetic attempts of diagnoses of mental illnesses are very transparent;
I'm sorry you didn't get that either, but that is hardly surprising: I was just making fun of you. It is actually quite obvious that you are merely a jerk and a snob.
and frankly says more about your mental state.
My mental state is simple: slightly bemused.
Toyota Prius has a commercial that say - no gas until labor day. 546 miles per tank, that's a lot of miles
How about a motorcycle with a side car? I don't know if they even still make them any more but they:
a) seat more then one
b) are cheaper then 12,000 (probably i guess, maybe)
c) goes fast
d) not a steal box
- $3,782 in depreciation
- $1,603 in insurance
- $975 in fuel
- $915 in maintenance
- $741 in finance costs
- $415 in other costs
And that doesn't account for the stress and hassle of driving, parking, breakdowns, repairs, breakins, and tickets.I haven't owned a car for more than a decade, and I rarely miss it. The costs of living within biking distance of work are more than offset by the amount I save by not owning a car. And when I need one, there are always taxis, rentals, and even by-the-hour car-sharing organizations. And my stress level is so much lower that it's impossible to convey in words.
What about the Sparrow you ask? There's a good reason why the Sparrow failed. Because it sucked. Sparrows very easily turned over, they broke left and right, and they were deathtraps.
But I hear your pain. So if you're going to have to bite it and buy a car (which you will), the car for you is clear as day: the Toyota Echo in 5-speed Manual. 35 City, 43 Highway. Which is, btw, better than the hybrids (if you've been following lately, the hybrids have way-off MPG estimates due to poor EPA estimation techniques). Unlike most of its competition, the Echo has extraordinarily high reliability, about the best of almost any car. It also is very well designed internally, with a high roof that gives it a much roomier feeling than would be expected. It's got four stars on its crash tests, which for an ultracompact is pretty good. It's LEV. Best of all, it's $11K with side airbags.
Either that, or you're going to have to wait until 2006 for a Smart.
Because the plants absorb CO2 as they grow- there is *no* net increase in the CO2 in the atmosphere when this matter is burnt; CO2 went down as it grew, it came back when it was burnt.
The same thing is true of fossil fuels. The only difference is that the carbon's been sequestered in them longer. It all came from the atmosphere at some point.
Ford Think Neighbor or Ford Think City. See: eBay. Can be had for as little for $4000 if you look hard enough. top speed 62 MPH with a modification you have to make to remove the limit of 25 MPH. It's just what you want. Spelled as Th!nk
Sig: I stole this sig.
to a big city (London, New York, SF, etc) where you don't need a car.
So the thing that city folk always forget, is that most folk aren't city folk.
That is just wrong. Most people *are* city folk.
The US population has been predominantly metropolitan since 1950 and the 2000 census reports that 80% live in a metropolitan area. 60% of the US population are accounted for in urban agglomerations over 1 million people. (177m out of 290m total.)
I'm guessing that your figures (I don't know where they come from) are probably for the narrowly defined 'city' (e.g. just the centre) and do not take into account the urban area which is a more reasonable definition when considering whether a population is urban or rural.
Europe probably has even greater urbanisation and even relatively small cities (under 1 million people) such as Bibao or Salzburg have good public transportation. I know it's not so good in the US for a variety of reasons (lack of government subsidies, more suburban sprawl, cultural attachment to cars, etc.)
Cars aren't such a problem in rural areas, where they are necessary; they only become a problem through congestion in cities. (Compare rural/urban MPG figures.)
My point was not to argue any of this but just to point out that even in cities where there *are* alternatives - good public transportation, or where people are within a cycling distance (note cities in Europe have higher densities) people will *still* drive to work.
That is just wrong. Most people *are* city folk.
...
60% of the US population are accounted for in urban agglomerations over 1 million people
My numbers were based on 'within the city limits' population. And by city folk I'm talking about people that live within the boundries of a major city. I can see where you'd call anyone in an urbanized area city folk and to an extent I agree, but that definition doesn't apply very well to the subject at hand of mass transit.
now anicdotally...
I live in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, the 6th largest such "urban agglomeration" in the US. But it's still 5 miles to the nearest grocery store, 30 minutes (by car) to the nearest train station (we have a commuter rail system), and I don't even know where I'd go to find a bus. So, as far as mass transit goes, I got none even though I'm fully Urbanized. I know this isn't rare in my " urbanized agglomertation" and I don't think it's unique for most metroplexes.
Thus, and this is just my opinion, you've got to be in a very dense area to have mass transit, and the point of my numbers is that most people aren't in very dense areas.
How about this... the thing dense people forget is that most people aren't dense.
(just punning... not intented to be pointed at anyone in particular)
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -- Homer Simpson
And kindly get off the road. I don't mean to sound rude, but I think it's a serious problem. Those of us who love our cars, and who actually take pleasure and pride in driving, would like nothing more than for those who hate these things to find some other means of transportation. Who wants to share the roads with those who not only don't want to be there, but will drive like maniacs in order to get it over with as soon as they can? I can think of few greater persistant road hazards than frustrated, car-hating drivers. So few people seem to take any pride in good driving these days, let alone actually enjoy it. As soon as more of them find some other way to get around, I'm sure traffic will become safer, smoother, and just plain old more fun.
If he works 50 weeks a year (Two weeks off for vacation, sick days, misc. holidays and such), and five days a week, those eighty minutes (two trips a day) add up to ((50*5*80)/60)=333.33_ extra hrs.
If the poster above is to be believed, let's assume he saved $8,431 by not owning a car... So, he's in effect getting paid($8,431/333.3_)=$25.293/hr. to ride his bike.
Which, of course, dosen't include the benefits of actually getting some exercise, or the annoyances of weather, or whatever have you. It's just a ballpark figure - Your milage may (literally!) vary.
http://www.evtamerica.com/evt4000e.htm
Also, once you have switched to electric or hydrogen, you have a much wider choice of energy sources (e.g., solar becomes an option; it isn't if you burn gasoline).
0 0.htm
I love that myth. People dream about free energy from the sun. The problem is the small amount provided vs the large amount needed.
A large solar panel is typicaly 100 watts. (8A @ 14V) It produces this while facing the sun and not shaded. While parked in your sunny parking lot at work a 6 panel array on the roof of a van would produce about 600W X 8 hours = 4.8 KWH.
The panels needed will set you back about $500 per panel. Here is a source;
http://www.bitterrootsolar.com/solar/pw1
A small car (not van) uses about 20KW of electric power to go freeway speeds. In short, a full day charging in the sun will give you less than a 15 minute runtime. It won't make the commute to home and back to work the following morning. Now factor the cost of 6 100 watt panels (500 X 6 = $3000, the electric motor and enough batteries to store 10 KWH of power (Weekend charge). The battery in the hybrid Toyota Prius stores only about 1KWH and is in the $5k price range. Needless to say, the investment in a solar storage system for an electric vehicle is not currently cost effective. Storing a small amount for getting on freeway on-ramps and a place to store power from regenerative braking does make sense. Shutting off the gas engine at stoplights, metered on-ramps, and in parking lots also makes sense. This is why I drive a hybrid, not an electric. Why carry the extra weight of a huge short life bad for the environment battery? A hybrid is a compromise to the limitations of gas only and electric only.
Curently, the juce you get from the local utility is cheaper by far than solar collection, storage, and use.
Solar electric is viable only where utility power is not convienent and for low power aplications (calculators, emergency radios, cell phone charger, remote telemetry, gate openers, fish pond pumps, etc.), not high power aplications such as transportation, cooking, air conditioning, television, computers, laundry, refrigeration, etc.
The truth shall set you free!
> doesn't protect me from the weather
You big wuss. Where do you live, Antarctica? If so I'll concede you might have a point. Otherwise weatherproof stuff is more comfortable than you think. It doesn't have to be leather all the way. Goretex is good, and there's plenty of heated underwear options for really cold weather. If you're really bothered about the weather, look at a BMW C1, or possibly at that glider without the wings and with two automatic low speed stabiliser wheels thingy that was posted here a while ago.
> too many moving parts
Wait. You use a car now. Cars usually have MORE moving parts than motorbikes, not fewer. Besides, you're (allegedly) a geek, so moving parts are good, no?
There's always a crowd of people bleating about how you'll kill yourself. Try talking to them about fatal car accidents in their model of car and they'll suddenly become a lot less talkative. Do advanced riding - you'll know what car drivers are going to do before they know it themselves, you won't misread corners, and your observation skills will be amazing. Don't cane it, don't take unnecessary risks, and you'll be as safe as any car driver.
Then there's the fun factor. How often do you see car drivers get out of their car saying "that commute was FUN FUN FUN!" Biking to work is the best fun I've ever had with my clothes on.
Downsides - it takes longer to get dressed up, and in slow traffic it can be very hot on hot days (you can do something about the cold, but you don't get many bike-mounted refridgeration devices). But the time saved can easily outweigh the time to dress up. My commute takes 20 minutes through some of the heaviest traffic in SE England - it would take IMO at least twice that in a car, if not three times that. Add five minutes at either side to dress up and do the maths.
I live in London. 30 inches a year is not a lot.
Exercise your right not to vote. thinkoutside.org
The GEM at $2995 would have worked for me, but my backroad commute road is signposted 45mph even though it's stop and go most of the way.
The Reva (RCar) from India looks tempting.... but not available here yet (see second link, no response from emailing the guy).
I'm buying a motorcycle. Gas mileage is better, as is parking and being able to jump to the front of the line at lights. I'm a chicken so I won't be lane splitting.
Be interested to hear what other people come up with! My understanding is that the NEV (Neighboorhood Electric Vehicles) don't have to go through the strict crash tests, so they're cheaper to build and market... but only useful in a golfing community.
--D