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Age Discrimination, Indian-Style
theodp writes "In April, IBM CEO Samuel Palmisano told investors Big Blue hopes to dodge an estimated $6 billion in liability stemming from a judge's ruling that IBM violated U.S. federal age discrimination laws. In May, IBM closes on its $150-$200MM purchase of Indian outsourcer Daksh, whose age requirements for job applicants make Logan's Run seem progressive. On its Opportunities page, Daksh states that Customer Care Specialists should be between 21-25 years of age and Team Leaders should be no older than 27. Early Daksh investors included Citigroup and we-don't-need-no-stinking-unions Amazon."
When are they going to state that the workers have to speak english? That'd be nice..
If it's not legal in one country, just outsource to another where it is legal.
The only reasons companies discriminate based on age is that younger people are easier to persuade to work harder, longer hours, and that they usually doesn't require as high pay as older, more experienced applicants.
It is NOT because younger people are smarter or brighter than older people. And who says they are, anyway? IMO, any supposed loss in thinking quickly is easily made up by the experience and better problem solving skills of older people.
Age discrimination and Indian-style in the same sentence? Did anyone else picture a class of kindergardners sitting around indian style? Heck, I'd think they were unsuited to be "Customer Care Specialists" too.
This is why we outsource to India. Less government regulation, fewer worker protection laws, fewer environmental regulations... I mean, are we to enforce our minimum wage laws on India? No.
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Cool. It looks like I'd be up for retirement on my 26th birthday (10 weeks from now) if I worked there. I'm sure the pension plan includes all the starvation I can eat. Famine. mmm....
Why do they want to make the age requirement public? This can be discretely discussed with the HR department and just filter anyone over xx age out automatically.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
1] People start to work and have kids at an earlier age in India, by ensuring people are between certain ages, you ensure they will be with the company a long time.
2] More resources on age descrimination
Im 32 years old (in a couple days), thankfully i run a small buisness network of 60 systems spread out across a city. But if my job ever went south again i always thought i could fall back into computer/networking phone support once again. But unlike 10 years ago it seems there are little oportunities for someone my age to work in such a field, first because most of those jobs got shipped off to malaysia and india (fuck you dell), and now because im over the hill. Seems to be yet another reason to hang onto my current job with a iron griop.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. -Fight Club
...there's a simple reason call centers want young people: they have to retrain them to use American accents (actually, they teach a neutral accent they call "Global English") and older learners have a harder time changing their accents. Old dog/new tricks and all. Judging by the posters selection of links, I'd say he is grasping for ways to bad-mouth the Indians in order to keep the jobs here.
Actually, I was trying to be Insightful, not Funny.
This poses a problem if they want younger crowds as the life expectancy in India is less compared to other countries See here
Yes! I listen to NYC Speedcore and do math at 3AM. I suggest you try it too.
Wow, this should get a gold metal for such a high number of mostly unrelated information given in a single article summary.
The age discrimination IBM was hit with was related to pensioners having their benefits plan changed; it had nothing to do with hiring.
The stuff on the Indian side of things, well, isn't really all that strange. The same thing happens informally in the US and in fact even the government has minimum ages for many elected representatives.
But of course this will just turn into another "Oh, woe is me, I can't believe that skilled people in other countries are getting jobs too." (Nevermind that it's still much harder for an Indian with strong tech skills to find a job than an American.)
IBM has discrimiated against older workers in the past, and they're buying a company that discrimiates against aged works now, but other than sharing the common feature of discrimination by big blue, these two events are unrelated.
I've heard a lot of arguments against this in my time (many of them on Slashdot), and most of them boiled down to this: IT workers, as professionals, shouldn't unionize. Unions are for blue-collar workers. While I suppose this is a nice way to think about your job and make you feel better about paying tens of thousands of dollars a year for a degree in Information Studies, it's ignoring reality. Perhaps the best way I've seen someone put it is, in reply to someone complaining about needing a buzzword-compliant resume, that such requirements should be a clue that IT workers are now a commodity. Like it or not, IT is the new factory worker of the 21st century, and if IT workers don't wake up and unionize, they'll get screwed so fast their heads will spin.
Maybe the AFL-CIO or UAW would be up to the task? They're only a postage stamp or a phone call away.
The best age group for IT related tasks will, at the moment be between around 28 to 35..... Why?
Well, people in this group grew up with the likes of the VIC 20, the ZX81, The Oric, The 80's 8 bit computers that we learnt and understood like riding a bike. No qualification, or degree will ever match what we know, and understand. Where students now learn computing in Uni, or secondary school, get taught IT skills, we learnt it through love of it, at 10 years of age, or earlier.
We are the David Beckhams of the industry, The Tiger Woods. Understand that in this era, we are kings, and our ability will never be surpassed by anyone just getting a degree, however young. I am 31, and the my best work (so far) has been in the last year or so. In my workplace, we have had people younger, but, though they can code well, they seam to just miss the point... They just analyze any problem, and apply it to what they've learnt at school or uni, they do not truly understand that problem, or how to realize the best solution.... and there solution is, well, ok, but never shows any innovation or 'Wow factor'
.... Tony.
Almost every job listed will have some sort of min/max age requirement. You could even be denied a job based on your blood type! Having type B blood puts you at a disadvantage from the start when looking for a job in Japan.
Who let you in here anywhay?
Every country has worker protection laws, even China. Does that mean they're enforced or are strong? No. American companies would never be allowed to list age limitations, yet Indian companies have no qualms. So, in this context, the protection laws in America ar stronger.
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Renewel on carousel!!
Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
Yes, this all sounds great but personally I would prefer not to have a bunch of kids who have no clue about the real world and no concept of responsibility be selecting who will run this country.
The problem with 14-17 year olds is not in their lack of intelligence, but in their lack of common sense. I think the main issue is that the majority of kids do not support themselves and until they do the really shouldn't have much of a say in how things should go.
I suppose I could possibly support a measure for them voting if they were not claimed as a dependent on anyone's tax return.
They can legally discriminate based on race, age, gender, religion, or anything they want. So companies can limit their applicants by flagrantly advertising age, gender, and other requirements that would be illegal in the US.
Businesses have much less regulations and worker protections than in the US and other industrialized countries, so they often collude to set artificially high prices for goods (although those prices may be still lower than in the US, due to the limited income of third-world consumers) and artificially low wages and working conditions for labor. And a handful of families control the majority of the wealth in the country.
US companies that outsource should realize that the countries and companies that have a blatant disregard for worker's rights and fair competition also aren't going to give damn about less tangible ideas like intellectual property and privacy.
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There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
There is plenty of fodder in the above comments that could be remarked upon. (Bashing of US companies outsourcing jobs to India) But I think the current state of the economy shows that in the long run, the outsourcing of low wage/skill jobs to India and China is a good thing.
"we-don't-need-no-stinking-unions Amazon."
Unions are dead. Japanese car makers, Walmart, and many other business have show us this time and time again. Unions kill creativity, bring little benefit to workers anymore, and will only stagnate the company's growth.
Back in the days of the industrial age, older workers' experience was an asset. Hence the higher pay. Today, age means obsolescence, especially in hi-tech fields. The material taught in college cs classes changes almost every year. Why keep 30-year olds around when the kids out of college are better trained, better motivated, and will work for less?
I didn't know why they consider blood type as a hiring factor, so I found this:
Personality assessment through blood type analysis has been prevalent in Japan sine the early 1970's. The Japanese term for this theory is 'ketsu-eki-gata', and is taken surprisingly seriously by the people from that part of the world. Books have been published on the topic, selling very well. In fact, Toshitaka Nomi has published over twenty-five books, and is considered the worlds leading expert on the topic. The blood type categories are used in a similar way to astrology in the west, focusing mostly on relationship aspects of life. Nomi goes further in his books though, even using blood type make up within a country as a theory for that nationality's general national traits.
Japanese companies often take blood type into consideration when hiring employees, to ensure harmony throughout the staff. All the major car companies in Japan have reorganised themselves in order to attain positive blood type combinations in different working sectors. Surveys have been carried out to try and determine the preferences of different blood types, be it for food, clothes or any recreational activity. It is also a popular topic of conversation in social settings.
More can be found here.
If a company doens't hire someone because they're too old, then let them suffer the natural consequences of not getting the most effective people for the job. If a company hires a young person because they can pay them cheap and exploit them - make your own company, hire tham away, pay them more and pick the cream of the crop at will.
Of course, sometimes companies take advantage of the system to expolit people, like communisim. Other times they take advantage of phoney property rights like copyright and patnet monopolies, other times they take advantage of false barriers to entry - like excessive regulation of the railroad industry, or RF frequencies. Not to mention our centralized monitary/tax system routinely rips people off, and locks people into the system when it comes to credit or money. - But from my experience, these problems have more to do with the publics poor belief systems than free markets.
Moral: societies that have more libertarian values have more economic prosperity for the little guy.
Actually it is quite common in India and Pakistan . You see job ads that explicitly list an age and that require you to furnish a recent picture!!!!. I mean imagine this "ABC Ltd. require a developer with skills in X, Y, and Z. The applicant must be below the age of 30. Please send your resume with two recent photographs to XXXX".
One of the most hilarious things that I saw was when a research institute that is "...committed to organising professional research, policy studies, and seminars in the area of human development." placed a job ad on their website stating that the applicant needs to be below the age of 25 . If a body that does research in human development and should know better engages in such practices, what is to be expected of others. Oh well, I am glad I am out of that mess.
Frankly, in some industries, you're too young. I cut my teeth (as a teenager) on a KIM-1 and what I remember about the VIC20/ZX80 crowd is you're afraid of hardware.
We use to refer to you lot as the "appliance computer users".
I've found my familiarty with hardware/electronics to be an EXTREME asset in the embedded market.
plurvert
In the Philippines, it is customary to include on your resume: age, religion, marital status, weight, height, a recent photograph, and if female, "measurements". If you don't, you probably won't be considered. The age of being "past your prime" is about age 25, professionally and maritally. You can be summarily rejected for employment for any of the above parameter values - being muslim as always been a strike against in the Catholic Philippines. Not being of the right sex or not being "pretty enough" to "decorate" the office is pretty common.
I'm sure other countries are similar. USian companies are required to follow the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act; I wonder if it could apply to foreign age discrimination of subcontractors and subsidiaries?
This strategy is less likely to work if all your staff look like Alice Cooper.
As a country, this isn't an imposition of one country's labor laws on another--it's just an adjustment of tax codes to discourage commerce with countries who choose not to have standards equivalent to those of the importing country. Should that be a problem, the government of the exporting country has two choices: bring its labor standards up to facilitate commerce, or remain uncompetitive if it can't compete on a level playing field. This isn't coercion--there's no military force at work here.
Another proud carrier of the $rtbl flag
NPR did a good story on it in December. If you don't like using ears, Fortune covered it too.
Paying offshore workers much less than American workers would make for the same job isn't necessarily exploitation. The "low" salaries really depend on perspective. For example, a call center worker in India makes more money than a doctor does.
I never understood age descrimination. I've always sort of assumed that even in fast changing fields like high tech that experience would be a good thing.
If its because the older workers get paid more and won't work for less money then its a pay issue and not really an age discrimination issue. If you wan't the job that badly work for less; nobody owes you anything.
And before you think its just so much easier for us youngsters...
Age descrimination works both ways. I worked for a couple years in California at an orgization that would match 12% (Yes, 12) of your pay and put it in a 401K for you but they wouldn't do this for you if you were under 21. Thats age discrimination and apperently its perfectly legal.
Oh...Yeah, did I mention how much more us youngsters have to pay for our car insurance even if we have a clean record?
Or that the cost of college compared to the average income has skyrocketed making it much more expensive for us to get an education.
Or that the cost of a house compared to the average income has also been steadily increasing making it more expensive to get a foot in the door and buy a house.
Or that even with all of the above those of us starting out have to pay a higher percentage of our income in taxes making it harder for us to save up enough to put a down payment on a house.
Or how we have to pay tons of money into social security (a much higher percentage than previous generations) even though its possible (probable?) that we'll never see any of that back.
So I'm jump'n up and down screaming show me the money.
You say that regulations "Drive businesses away," however, who said that nations need companies?
A company is just a group of people who are trying to make the most amount of money possible. Regulations merely say "This is what it takes to earn money legally in this country."
Therefore, for maximum profits, a company would need to function in the maxiumum number of countries, while following their regulations, and keeping production in the cheapest possible country.
The nation does not owe the corporations that dwell within a profit.
As an Indian I am happy to see this topic being discussed.
When I worked in India 10 years ago, it was common to see such ads. Some companies also asked for your marital status, the number of kids you have, and your driver's license number. There was no option but to provide this information.
Some pressure on them to discontinue such practices would be good.
When you have so *much* talent to draw from, from a pool of a billion, it must become very easy to just treat them like a commodity... to use them for what they're worth and then toss them aside when you're done with them... sort of the "low wage" syndrome (like call centers) here in the states - they work for nothing and there are a 100 people who will replace them - in fact there are 5 people being trained right now for when you get sick of it and quit, do you honestly give a crap about them as a manager? no. Humans are notoriously bad at managing surplus. Scarcity, we do pretty good with.. we even invent whole bodies of knowledge to manage it (economics).. Surplus? We have no idea what to do with it, and so we waste it. Now, I'm not exactly happy about offshoring, but I feel that, from the world-level-view, this sort of behavior is counter productive.
meh
Palmisano is more than 27 years old!
Lay him off! See how he likes it.
Just make sure that the medical insurance costs more than the parachute.
I have worked in a few IBM shops over the years at Fortune 100 companies.
They all had some sort of "vendor ethics" policy that stated that vendors (ie: such as IBM) had to have similar policies. These would include items such as harassment, ethical standards, EPA standards, age discrimination, etc. Mainly due to the contracting companies own liability.
Any contractor of IBM's that we would haven been exposed to would have to have the same standards.
Many large companies have these policies. There also seems to exist camps in these same companies that always want to throw IBM out for one reason or another.
This, IBM does business with contractors that engage in age discrimination, is exactly the sort of canon fodder that these people pray for. It does not matter if India allows this to happen, large US companies don't want to deal with this stuff.
I can understand an Austrailian who speaks English with (to my ears) and accent. Same with people from GB (except some scots i know)
I understand Asians (japanese, korean, singnapore) who are just learning english with little problem.
But many people from the middle east and india I cannot understand unless they slow their speach down considerably.
But At 2 am with the servers in a datacenter roaring in my ears, I don't want to talk to them. the conversation is like 2 old deaf people talking to each other: "What" "Repeat that" "slow down"
Annoying as hell.
Who run Barter Town?
"Somebody with the class and educational background to get this sort of job in India speaks English well enough. Your problem is not that the foreign workers speak bad English, but rather that you're intolerant of anybody who speaks it with a foreign accent, and undisposed to listen to them in the first place. (Of course you're not going to understand what somebody says if you don't listen to them.)"
Foreign accents, I don't mind. I work with Iranians at my workplace.
But I can't understand half the words Indians use. Which makes it TWICE as hard when you are trying to fix a server.
If Microsoft, Cisco, etc are going to charge me an arm and a leg per incident, they should provide someone who speaks English I can understand.
It's not racist, it's a fact. If I can't understand you, you are no use to me.
Corporatism != Free Market
I could probably deal with accents a lot better if two things would happen:
1. Slow down. The performance metric that says that the faster you handle a call is done without consideration for the customer
2. Stop that infernal beeping. I don't know what that is - something telling me they're recording the conversation or something, but when a conversation has every fourth word bleeped out it's hard to understand, especially if they're asking important questions I may have to pay for.
Josh