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First Looks At PCI-X, BTX, New Chipsets, And More
rsrsharma writes "AnandTech has some early bird Computex 2004 coverage up its sleeve. Included are the first pictures and partial specs of nVidia's NV45, the PCI-X (PCI-eXpress) successor to the 6800 Ultra, and ATI's PCI-X cards. Also shown are Intel's new 9xx line of chipsets and LGA-755 motherboards, BTX form factor (the successor to ATX) motherboards, and much more. I'm definitely looking forward to this stuff." Update: 06/01 01:08 GMT by T : Several readers have pointed out that PCI-X properly stands for "PCI Extended" rather than "PCI Express."
It seems that that this is a good moment for a hardware upgrade. I think I'll dual boot again this year, but I need a new box to be doom3/hl2 ready.
But what about guys like me that need a dozen (or two) PCI slots and at least as many ISA?
As usual there's some confusion between PCI-X (64bits PCI up to 133mhz) and PCI express which is a serial bus. Please call that PCI-E or whatever!
PCI-X and PCI-Express are NOT the same thing!
If you don't feel like clicking through a hundred pages, use the "print" link instead.
That should be PCI-E not PCI-X. They're two different things.
The article doesn't have much BTX coverage. Is there to be any advantage to the spec., other than a size difference? What is the intended audience for BTX-form motherboards?
IIRC, PCI-X is just an extension of the PCI standard up to 133MHz (true PCI-X) with some other protocol tricks. PCI Express is to be a serial standard capable of Gbps speeds (2.5Gbps per channel). PCI - eXpress - I dunno what this is...
I'm quite certain PCI-X and PCI-Express are two totally different things. PCI-X is a 64bit PCI port, that is backwards compatible with PCI. PCI-Express is a whole new device connection port with the goal of replacing PCI, PCI-X, and AGP. Thus, you don't call PCI-Express PCI-X.
- tristan
Right. But from a marketing point of view, that's an excellent name to call it since people don't even know the difference!
It's the cirlce of upgrades...
But seriously, it is nice to see the industry (esp. Intel) shift away from the gigahertz/integer+ wars and go for smarter-designs and less heat output. The current BTX specs promise for less noise and better heat evacuation. Lest this be modded as a troll, the linear, horizontal layot of the components does remind of the G5 quite a bit. we'll just have to see who's right.
This is actually the first I heard of BTX, so I immediately flipped to the last page and had a look at the board. I have to say that the thing that bothers me the most about it, is the apparent lack of expansion slots. I only saw one slot, which was probably PCI-X?
I sincerely hope that this does not mean the end of expansion cards. Because if it DOES, I am just going to say goodbye to Windows, and get a Mac. It defeats the main advantage of a PC if I can't upgrade whenever I see fit.
PCI-X and PCI Express are not the same protocol. PCI-X is still a 32/64 bit parallel bus that handles FIFOs a little differently than PCI (i.e. the master can transmit unless the target has enough fifo for a complete transaction). It also changes the timing of the bus to allow for speeds up to 133MHz.
PCI Express is a serial protocol.
I too got yanked in to the PCI-X =/= PCI-Express dupe. I was looking forward to backwards compatability so that companies could just start spewing forth their wares and normal PCI board users could still use them. Plus current cards would still work. Someone in someone's marketing dept needs to be shot. BTW, 'splain those little slots? They remind me of the failed CNR idea. Better yet, for a transition (though more expensive) they could do what they did with PCI/ISA, double the slots PCI next to PCI-Exp.
Nice to see both PCI Express x16 and AGP 8X slots on board at least one of them. I'm looking to squeeze a bit more life out of my AGP based ti4200 before updating to one of the newer video cards in a year or so...
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
PCI-X is a 133mhz bus which is backward compatible with PCI and PCI66.
PCI-Express is a system bus but is more of a networking protocol using high-speed differential signaling (like DVI and SATA) as the physical layer.
PCI-X and PCI-Express are similar only in name (and some similarities in how "config space" is handled). They are really two radically different things.
Upon closer look you'll notice that this particular card has a PCI Express x16 interface, but with no bridge chip. It looks like the rumors of a bridgeless NV45 were true.
I love how people on Slashdot are willing to plagiarize in order to gain a little karma.
This pic shows the inside of the NV45. Look at the paths on the circuit. Instead of going straight from one chip to another they form different loops, turn around etc. Are they trying to make them longer, or equal distance or introduce picosecond delays or what?
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Just a friendly warning for those who didn't notice the Troll moderation on the parent and not dilligent enough to examine the actual linked URL.
- PCI-X: 64bits PCI up to 133mhz
- PCI Express: Serial bus, a replacement for AGP (mostly), and for graphics cards (at the moment). What I accidentally called PCI-X (PCI eXpress)in the article. From other articles I've read, it looks like it'll be used for all cards eventually. Although I still think this acronym makes more sense than PCI-E, I guess it'll confuse some people who have actually heard of PCI-X before. I have this wierd feeling that the industry is gonna call PCI Express PCI-X now (it sounds way cooler).
Some other info on PCI Express:- There can be different sizes of slots. All the graphics cards use x16 size slots, while it looks like most other types of cards will use x1 size slots.
- It will eventually become ubiquitous like PCI
- More information in this article.
I'm sure I got something wrong, feel free to correct me.Wow! this thread echoes!
... ... ..
PCI-X is not PCI express
PCI-X is not PCI express
.
We already know that ATI uses DRM. What about the bios on these boards? I would kindly ask that if you don't like DRM, that you stay away from these if they have it, and make sure to spread the word. NO DRM!!! None. Nicht. Nien. Did I say NO?
Am I missing something? They've replaced the standard ATA-IDE connectors with Serial ATA connectors, gotten rid of all of the PCI slots, but for some reason kept the FDD drive connector and the parallel port? Most newer motherboards support booting from USB flash device. As for the parallel port, there aren't many devices being sold today that use them and there are parallel-USB adapters available for those who want to use their old printers.
I know this is a pico-ATX board so it's understandable that the PCI slots were removed for space-saving purposes, but if a pico-ATX enclosure can't fit an extra PCI card, why leave room for a floppy drive?
LGA 775 NOT 755!!!!!!!
Ok, ok, now does anyone know which of these fancy smanchy new protocols is more green? eh? No PCI-nuclear for me.
Oh, btw, PCI-X is not PCI Express.
Stick with what you have got, believe me in the long run it's worth the non-hassle. You save money, you watch other people rant over how such-and-such has crappy drivers, you read in glee as something-or-other has crashed their Colonel, you read forums where the members literally shout for H-E-L-P C-O-S M-Y G-F-X C-A-R-D W-O-N-T W-O-R-K. Damnit I've had so much hassle over new hardware I'll only be upgrading when something breaks and then - apart from hard drives - it'll be second hand eBay stock. Stability and speed don't always go hand-in-hand :O)
I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born - Ronald Reagan
/rantmode ON
/me runs in circles and looks for titanium tinfoil propeller beanie /rantmode OFF
I mean it too, BTX form factor means that you have to THROW your old ATX case out..wtf? ATX is not perfect but damn...have to pay 100+ beans for a new case? no, thank you!
775 pin LGA or whatever its called this week is also suspect to me cause the pins are now IN the socket and are subject to being bent.
Can you imagine bending your sockets pins and then having to trash an otherwise perfectly working mobo? sheeeit!!
On top of that, 775 pin cpus are ( from what ive read) DRM filled goodies as well. Dont buy into the hype!
pci-x or pci-e is nice etc etc, but I just do NOT need that kinda stuff now, nor do I need DDR-II (look and see how much that RAM costs at the moment, anyway, you will cry)
Im usually a coupla years behind the curve in the parts department and damn it, I like it like that!!
Hells Bells, I'll be a very excited camper when I can afford a p4 system, sheesh.
OK, what's the deal with LGA-755? Pins on the motherboard? How is it supposed to work? And why??? (the ever changing sockets is one of the things that pisses me off about intel).
PCI-Express 1x. What's the speed? (not much from the looks of it) and what's the advantage over plain old PCI? I'm assuming we will see boards with more than one 16x slot at some point, which would be useful for RAID controllers, gigabit ethernet, and other high bandwidth stuff. But what's the point of 1x slots? Plain PCI works just fine.
BTX. Again, why? And who the fuck came up with this stupid name?
What are the brown slots on these SiS boards?
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
As for the parallel port, there aren't many devices being sold today that use them
well, sorry but I'd like to keep using my PRINTER when I next upgrade my computer: heck, my old laserjet 4L is still alive and kicking after 10 years of valuable service.
Even high end Laserjets (say, LJ4300) still come with parallel ports only (if you don't want to spring for the network enabled models).
-- the cake is a lie
The key PCI-X feature is "protocol tricks".
Some wait states are eliminated from the
protocol, providing a nice speed increase
for cheap.
Typically a PCI-X slot is also 64-bit and
can go to 66, 100, or even 133 MHz. The key
feature is the protocol change though.
PCI Express is indeed serial, with 1 to 32
serial links working together. (like RAID)
As a result, much confusion will arise, we know. But, pretty much from here on in, when you here "PCI-X," it's referring to the newer technology of PCI-eXpress.
That is all.
Biggest flops since the PS/2 motherboard form factors and Microchannel. ;)
;)
Serial ATA? One channel? Please! People will want to run dual IDE controllers with IDE legacy drives.
We need more than one expansion port, how else are we going to replace that built in Winmodem with something decent or stick a better network card in there than the crud that is bundled with the BTX board? Also where does the video capture card go?
PCI-X biggest flop since Microchannel or EISA.
Now I know what companies not to invest my money into, thanks!
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I was hoping for "PCI X-Rated."
sulli
RTFJ.
And they used to be an 8 bit Microprocessor - not the 8 bit counterpart of MC68000 which powered early Mac's and Amigas, but
the chip upon which the popular 6502 - which powered the Apple ][ computer series - was based.
-><- no
PCI Express is software compatible with PCI and PCI-X, but the physical connection is different. There are already specifications available for PCI Express-to-PCI/X bridge, so you need'nt worry about your "legacy" PCI devices becoming useless after PCI Express' adoption.
at the PCI Express Specification Page, they call it PCI-Express and nothing more. The use of the term PCI-X should stop and we already got the idea from the first few posts heh.
I'm just hoping that the future boards will keep at least two standard pci slots consdering that I doubt I'd change my soundcard or nic card to something which needs an incredible amount of bandwith. Or is this another way to tell consumers "hey, buy this one, its newer and better and FASTER!"
I'm about to plunk a fair amount of change into a new system, but I keep hearing about PCI-X. When will these new items from Computerdex be available for sale? A month? Six months? A year? What is the expected launch?
And will these boards be Intel only or is AMD getting some PCI-X too?
From the info of the ICC seminar I attended a few weeks ago suggests that except for the CDROM and the floppy, everything is incompatible with the current stuff:
Case? BTX form factor
Power supply? ATX v3.0(or maybe just 2.2?) form factor (2x12 power connector + 2x2 P4 connector) (the current standard is 2x10 + 2x2) and add at least one for the SATA HD's
RAM? DDR2 starting at 533MHz
HD? SATA (ok, this is out for a year)
Video Card? PCI Express 16x
PCI cards? PCI Express 1x
CPU and motherboard are kinda changing too fast, one is the 755 contact (which, from my quick glimpse at the summary, was mentioned), and the BTX form factor.
Weeee... Guess I'm saving my money until these are on the market for 2 years.
PCI-X = Full-Speed 1.0
PCI-Express = Hi-Speed 2.0
- Smaller/lighter (case)
- Have at least the performance of what I have now, but most likely better
- More power-efficient, and related to that, lower-noise
For the rest, I don't care much if it'll be AGP8X or PCI Express, DDR-II or QBM memory, Micro-ATX, Mini-ITX, or Pico-BTX case, AMD, Intel, or maybe a next-generation Via (C5?) CPU. As long as it becomes somewhat mainstream, popular, and with good quality/performance/price ratio.It is very nice though to see those pictures of the next-generation hardware, so that you have an idea what it looks like.
Something struck me as very unlogical when looking at those LGA-775 sockets: as I understand it, they are small contact springs in the socket, that press against flat contacts on the CPU bottom. The unlogical thing: If you swap CPUs a lot, those springs (read socket) might get damaged, result: mainboard (=difficult/expensive to replace) f**ked up.
Why not put those little springs on the CPUs, and the flat contact surfaces in the CPU socket instead? If you swap CPUs a lot then, only the CPU (easily replaced) would be damaged, instead of the mainboard socket.
Maybe someone has a good explanation for why it was designed that way?
While PCI-X stands for PCI-eXtended, which is just 64 bit (and 133mhz?) pci, this is NOT the technology they are talking about in the article. PCI-X is a very expensive implementation as it requires one controller chip per slot, so you will probably never see this in the desktop market.
They ARE talking about PCI-Express (formerly 3GIO or 3rd Generation I/O), which is a whole new standard, but will remain backwards compatible with any newer PCI (2.2) card. PCI-Express is a serial, point-to-point bus, needing only 4 traces per connection, instead of PCI's 32. It has a theoretical transfer rate of 2.5Gb/s in each direction, tho who knows about real transfer rates. Also, you can stack 'lanes', for slots that need more bandwidth(like the video card slot, which uses 16 lanes afaik), giving you your full-duplex 2.5Gb/s per lane.
It is a packet-based protocol like AMD's hypertransport,and ethernet, and the controller will have a type of 'switch' similar to an ethernet switch for interfacing with all your devices. The advantage of this is your peripherals will, if designed to do so, be able to communicate to eachother directly, wihtout burdening the cpu or memory bus.
Also, PCI-Express is -supposed- to be hot-pluggable or designed with hot-pluggability in mind, but we'll see how well that works in practice...didn't seem to be too hot with serial-ata hard drives.
Hope that helps..
It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
http://saveie6.com/
Mac Zealot posts without actually checking things out....
In other news the world is round and bears shit in the woods.
The NVidia cards aren't going to be native PCI Express cards till the next generation of chipset. They are exactly like the AGP version , but with an inbuild adepter to PCI Express. So they don't take advantage of the PCI Express bandwidth etc. ATi on the other hand is going to be native , thous taking advantage of everything PCI Express has to offer.
-- TRUST ME! I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING!
But for those of you who don't know, I'll be happy to state those reasons here:
The average consumer doesn't know there are different flavors of these computerthingys that do their email.
The average retailer doesn't have Macs, or don't demonstrate them for people who want to buy a computer.
Could you give me one reason, besides gaming, that a Mac can't do as good as a Wintel?
Tua consilia omnia nobis clariora sunt quam lux. Tu delenda est!
that a Mac can't do as good as a Wintel?
Grammar checker?
Cause the average consumer's free tech support family member won't go near a Mac with a ten foot pole.
Not Extended... That was EISA, Extended- ISA, wrong century. PCI-X=PCI=Express
___Abuse of power comes as no surprise___
Avid's Nitris hardware requires PCI-X, as will pretty much any uncompressed HD NLE solution.
Atto's UL320 is a good example of the kind of scsi adapter you'll need if you want to write that uncompressed HD video out to disk.
While the Avid HW, is fairly esoteric, the SCSI adapter is pretty mainstream. I'd choose it for driving a home media server for instance.
Soundcards have long suffered from insufficient bus bandwidth - Creative's Soundblaster series has suffered since the "64", if you can remember it. Hardcore gamers swear by nForce2 MCP-T boards in part because the onboard sound uses a special dedicated sound channel similar to PCI-X/AGP to talk to the CPU - nVidia smartly bypassed PCI's limitations by including a top-end soundchip and eliminating the need for a PCI card. The increased bandwidth allows nVidia's SoundStorm to produce higher quality sound than any PCI card can offer.
PCI SATA/RAID cards can run into bandwidth issues as well.
like finding your uncle sitting alone on your bed in your room, naked?
as far as i knew - why are people refering to PCIe as PCI-X when PCI-X is the PCI slot use in most servber boards....!!!!
just what we need is more confusion!
year 2001...PCI-X = Full-Speed 1.0
year 2004...PCI-Express = Hi-Speed 2.0
year 2014...PCI-FLEX = Turbo Hyper 5.0 with Yogurt protocol^H^H^H^H^H Plaid!
congratulations YOU SUCCEED at FAILING IT
Printing in Mozilla OSX with NO header or footer (ie: without: url,page No. etc)
Interactive spell-checking in WordX on large documents brings the machine to a crawl
Apple's samba! (in case ya want to use shared files on a PC WITHOUT corrupting them)
Will this "System Update" Hose my system?.... this time....?
Availability - "store.apple.com will ship it to you..."
on the plus side there is Super Breakout....
And you think I can't spew stuff like that back at you? I once thought of logging all the fuck-ups my computer manages to generate in a text file, but I soon came to realise I don't have that much hard drive space to waste for a log that huge.
I meant real things. The capabilities a buyer wants.
Who, when thinking of buying a computer, in their right mind wonders if interactive spell-checking in WordX on large documents brings the machine to a crawl?
What about all the Windows Exclusive® worms that grinds your computer to a halt all the time. Remember, we're still talking about Joe Average here...
I use a PC though, because of the price of a Mac and the availability of games. But lots of people buy HP and Dell machines, they're not much cheaper than Macs, and they come with the same crappy graphics card and 256 megs of RAM.
Tua consilia omnia nobis clariora sunt quam lux. Tu delenda est!
No one thinks their brand new "super-computer" would crawl doing something any other PC could do in spades - 5 years ago, but their dissapointment will be similar when it happens to them.