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New PowerMac G5s: Up to 2.5Ghz, Liquid Cooled
no_demons writes "Apple have just announced the new, completely dual-processor PowerMac G5 lineup. The models all sport an 8x SuperDrive, whilst new the dual-2.5GHz model also features an 'innovative liquid cooled heat sink,' available in July."
Already liquid cooled, and in a cool aluminium case, enough case fans for a hovercraft. What is left to do?
I promised my wife I wouldn't upgrade from my 800mHz 17" iMac overclocked to 900 with dual display to a G5 until they came out with a Dual 3Ghz, and I would get the 23" HD Studio display with it.
:P
Now I have to wait another year.
Bastards.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
I think the 2.5 model, with the whiz-bang cooling and new chips, is the first next-gen G5, whereas the lower models are designed to clear out old supplies. November will see the real "bump" to 2.5/2.7/3.0 all-liquid series.
Here's a theory: The 2.5 is slated to start shipping in July, so maybe Apple is getting around the new-model-launch-delays bear? Will they announce and ship the "missing" 2.7 and 3.0 portions of the range in September, when they would have shipped anyway, even if they were announced today? "Clearing out the old machines and releasing the typical low-end 'shipping today' portion of the new model range, and keeping mum on the parts we would normally delay two months."
That said, they are still impressive machines, save for the GPU. Also, to the first poster, the top end chips are 2.5Ghz, not 1.5...
I like the idea of liquid cooling but I also like simple systems. There's too much complexity here. So...
I've often pondered creating a sealed aluminum case with integrated heatsink. Stick the components in and fill it with dielectric oil in order to create a huge, passive heat sink (like a big transformer or whatever). Thoughts? I almost got around to this but stopped after submerging an old hard drive in some dielectric - if you seal the breating hole, it works fine (I believe the hole is there to relieve pressure differentials caused by changes in altitude so it should be fine in a stationary location).
Provided that the dielectric has good enough heat transfer, this should work, no?
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
From the Apple link:
Each of the four thermal zones is equipped with its own dedicated, low-speed fans. Apple engineered the nine fans to spin at very low speeds for minimum acoustic output. Using 21 different sensors, Mac OS X constantly monitors component temperatures in each zone, dynamically adjusting individual fan speeds to the appropriate levels for the quietest possible operation. As a result, the Power Mac G5 runs two times quieter than the previous Power Mac G4 enclosure.
Nine fans and 21 sensors, generating half as many decibels. Now I'm not an Apple fan-boy but that's the level of attention to detail that seperates Apple from Dell, etc.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
The dual 1.8 and dual 2.0 GHz machines come with an "NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra" graphics card. Isn't that card pretty low-end (or midrange at best)? Is it just me, or should a 2,000+ dollar machine come with a decent graphics card?
Of course, the whole point of a tower is that you can replace the card, but when you're already paying 2,500 USD, should you have to?
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
I doubt that the art guys checked with the science guys before illustrating the CPU cooling design, unless that lower CPU is either A)Off or B) Magical.
There may come new Displays (20, 23 and 30 inch with the known aluminum brushed metal look) to the WWDC, as reportet here.
Think Secret writes they may even come with DVI port.
>> Had I been going to bed earlier every night? Have I been sleeping later? Has Tyler been in charge longer and l
The clock speed is useless to compare different architectures or even different processor lines made by the same manufacturer. So, A G5 running at 2.5GHz can't be compared to an Athlon running at 2.5GHz on clock speed alone, for example.
But between two otherwise identical G5 chips, it can be assumed the 2.5GHz one will go faster than a 2GHz one. It's essentially the same chip, just running faster.
-N
I've nothing to say here...
I'm mostly disappointed that they still haven't announced new monitors. I don't want a sleek aluminum G5 sitting next to one of those dated looking plastic cinema displays, with a three inch border around the screen. New displays!
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
2) Fast video cards are nice, but if I want a gaming machine I'll get a PS2.
3) Yes, only 256MB of RAM on the 1.8GHz. You need more, buy it from somewhere else. Apple overprices their RAM
The real development here is the liquid cooling. It's a big step forward, because this means that they might be able to put faster processors into the Powerbooks, and they'll be ready for 3GHz and faster processors once IBM overcomes the Voodoo Curse.
I'm a little disappointed, but since I have to save for a wedding, I'm kind of glad they're waiting to release the dual 3GHz. It will be easier to convince my future wife that we need it when we aren't dropping $5000 next week for a payment.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Macs run Windows XP a hell of a lot faster than a PC can run Mac OS X.
Post: Sigged, for your pleasure.
...and multiple fans: Apple does it because they want to keep the machine as quiet as possible while still as cool as possible (as opposed to being forced to do it, lest the processor become hotter than the surface of the Sun).
(They don't do it because the PowerPC 970 family is "so hot", either; the PowerPC 970, and the 970FX even moreso, run much cooler, and require less power, than even the newest generation PowerPC 74xx (G4) family processors: )
Also, new PowerPC 970FX information from IBM is now available.
...as much as I care about the liquid cooling part. I remember liquid cooling my crappy little celeron, thinking it would never go mainstream because of my belief at the time that water + electricity = bad.
Now, we've got liquid cooled technology backed by Apple. It's pretty sweet, considering you either have to buy a specially designed freon pumping case, or a $500 video card to reap the benefits of this kind of cooling.. Now all you've gotta do is buy a $3000 Mac.
Sarcasm aside, I think this shows that soon, the PC's on the shelves will mostly all be using some sort of heat pipe / water cooling technology.
I'm not a Mac fanboy, don't own one, but this really goes to show that Apple can and does set standards for personal computing. With major backing like this, it's only a matter of time before it trickles down to where everyone can be using it for a relatively cheap price. Way to go, Apple.
Meh, if you were a REAL GEEK you would settle for a drive-through wedding(while messing with your powerbook) and put off honeymoon activities until you got an FP on your new G5!
I like it when Jobs does his old "oh, and one more thing..." also. I think the WWDC will have something bigger than new G5s though. I'm guessing it will be bigger than a new iMac. With the release of AirPort Express and such, the low-fanfare announcement of the new G5s, but more importantly the setup of an entirely new division dedicated to the iPod, I'm guessing we'll see a new consumer product. You gotta love the rumors that fly around the Apple camp. I'm taking stabs at what the next unveiling will be also...but it sure is fun. New consumer product...hmmmm...
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
Clock speed doesn't mean "nothing", it's just not the sole- or even the most meaningful- measurement of over-all system speed. People have mearely noticed that, with all the bottle-necks in a system, merely bumping up clock-speeds without improving the over-all architecture gives deminishing returns.
What a G5 2.5 Ghz would be equivalent to in terms of Intel or AMD depends on what you're doing and how you benchmark. It really doesn't matter too much, though, unless you're trying to start a Mac vs. PC flame war. It's like comparing Apples and Oranges.
Frickin "LA-ZER" Beams.
It's just to keep it quiet.
It's a common misconception that Apple *needed* the elaborate cooling mechanism they designed for the G5. They didn't design it to keep the chips cool, they designed it to keep the chips cool quietly. The G5, I'm told, actually runs cooler than the high-end P4 chips. It runs hotter than the G4 for sure, but it's not like there's a miniature fusion reactor in your tower or anything.
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
Well, IBM was the first to go on record as saying that 90nm was considerably more difficult to implement than they first expected. There's a lot of current leak going on, meaning wasted power, which leads to increased heat (see Intel's Prescott as a very good example). Supposedly AMD's having some 90nm issues as well now.
I guess those issues would explain why Apple had to switch to liquid cooling for this round of systems.
Then simply stick to doing what the rest of us are doing.
internal drives in the computer are system drives.
leave the stack of external fiberchannel/scsi drives as the media drives in the raid array.
works great for AVID when dealing with HD or digitalcinema.
and I prefer that those 15Krpm drives be external... we have had to RMA 2 of them already this year for failures/ excessive noise from 2 different AVID suites here in the office.
External media drives are the only way to go.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Oh, wait a second.
Ok, forget Bill. But look at open source guys: THOSE people know how to hit release dates. At least I think they do because it seems like every other day Slashdot is announcing availability of version 4.31.57.111 of some software package I've never heard of. Or are those really secret IP addresses for some conspiracy to which I haven't been invited?
Actually, I was trying to be Insightful, not Funny.
That would be Fluorinert. Not a bad idea. NASA had a fluorinert-filled heatsink inside a mylar bag that I used once. Geez. Its still here. I need to clean out my desk more often.
PCI-X is twice as fast as PCI and is a replacement for PCI. PCI-E is a replacement for AGP and is twice as fast as AGP 8x. PCI-Express boards will have multiple PCI-X slots for sound cards, network cards, etc, and one PCI-E slot for the graphics card.
in contrast the mac case has layers of flowing air no thicker that what is probably the thermal diffusion length. Air flows over the top and bottom of the hotest items and does so in one pass. Its beautiful. and mac planned this out from the beginning for expandability.
besides I like the cheese grater.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Or Apples to Intels
*ducks*
...and that's all there is to it.
Well, actually most all of it is done in 2D with OpenGL.
GL does have a couple 2D Drawing modes, GL_ORTHO, for instance, and cards hardware accelerate them. How do you think games draw their pretty little GUI's and menus and whatnot?
Interestingly enough, nobody's ever developed a really good benchmark for cards that can accurately compare card performances drawing to ortho's. Maybe 3DMark should include a test like this. I imagine that raw fill rate has the biggest impact here, but who knows what kind of crazy optimizations card manufacturers might have in there to help/hurt the 2D OpenGL performance in favor of the 3D.
SPEC.ORG doesnt have any recent PowerPC benchmarks, but looking at historical bechmarks (Specint95 on 500Mhz processors) PowerPC has about a 20% higher score than a pentium of the same Mhz.
I would guess this advantage has increased as PowerPC pipelining and paralellism have improved dramatically since then.
So a 2.5 GHz PowerPC should be able to crunch numbers better than a 3 GHz Intel.
The chip also has the advantage of not being constained by the 8080 architecture.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
I'm no hardware engineer, but looking at this artist rendering (akamai.net is an image host for all Apple.com images) of Apple's liquid cooling system, I think the processors are getting different cooling.
It would appear that the liquid passes over processor #1, then #2, then back to the heat sink to be diffused by the fan blowing over it. This would say to me that processor #2 is getting at best room temp water cooling, while proc #1 is getting cold water cooling.
Here's my reasoning: If the heat sink with the fan blowing over it can cool the water 2X degrees, then when it is leaving the cooling system it is at Room Temp (RT) - X degrees. It passes over both processors and returns to the cooling system at RT+X degrees, where it is cooled by 2X and leaves the system at RT-X, headed for the hot processors again, follow?
So here's the meat of it: both processors together heat the water up by 2X (see above). That means each processor heats the water by X, so when the cool water leaves, it is at temp RT-X, passes over the heat sink and it raised to (RT-X)+X=RT which then passes over the second processor and cools it to RT+X where it returns.
So the second processor is getting room temp water cooling while the first is getting RT-X cooling. What effect will this have on the system?
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
Did you look at the page?
The schematic clearly shows a closed circuit of pump driven fluid flowing past the CPUs getting heated and then flowing into a heat exchanger (takes the place of a holding tank, and is actually superior too one) with a fan blowing on it. This is exactly like a smaller version of the cooling system in a car. There is no phase change.
A heat pipe is completly different, it is a phase change driven system, and does not involve pumping, or traditional heat exchangers.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
"...I would bet that 99% of us can't name one product from the HP lineup, but can name..."
Well I certainly can - HP sells iPods!
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For my applications un-optimised code on a 2 Ghz G5 runs about the same as on a 3 Ghz Pentium and a 2.4 Ghz Xenon, if I optimise the G5 code with xlf and shark I get my 2 Ghz G5 to run twices as fast as the Pentium or Xenon... but I don't have the intel compiler for the P4 or Xenon so that's not a fari comparison.
Anyway I expect this new G5 to greatly outperform a P4.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Double or half the power is +/- 3dB.
Shawn's Tech Articles
That Xenon is one noble processor.
Looking like OSX isn't the point.
The user experience is what Macs are all about. Running OSX, not just looking like it, and having a wonderfully engineered case.
A PC running any OS it is capable of is like a bitching Camaro kicking ass in the straight-away.
A Mac is like a BMW z4 taking on a winding road.
You either get it or you don't.
Think Secret is reporting that new displays are due soon. The new displays apparently will be DVI only -- no more ADC. (The 30" display requires 150W, which ADC couldn't handle.)
What puzzles me is the GPUs currently in these new G5s -- they seem to be dual-head ADC+DVI. That's not terribly useful once ADC goes the way of the dodo. If you're in the market for the new displays, it might be worth holding off on the G5 a few weeks, in order to get a DVI+DVI video card.
Now with more Speed Holes!(TM)
fs
well it's also the chip's design. the Apple (and IBM/Moto) designs (and AMD to some extent) "do more work" per clock cycle. that's part of the reason some are better for some processes (though software is key too). think of it like a racecar vs a truck. a racecar revs really fast and flies, but carries one passenger. a truck revs lower but can tow a house. if you had a relay race of the two that had to transport 300 people across a distance the truck could win since it could haul everyone in one or two trips. it's the same way the G5 (or G4) tries to "do more" with every clock cycle compared to Intel just trying to go really really fast.
it really comes down to attacking the same problem from different methods.
Don't be an ass. Yes, the 9800XT is fast, but:
- It's Build-To-Order only
- It takes up an extra slot
Apple's top-end stock GPU, the 9600XT, is mid-range at this point. The other G5s still use the FX5200, which SUCKS HAIRY GOAT these days and does not belong in Apple's officially designated "Pro" machines.althought impressive with the blue light thingy, i'm more interested in how you are going to incorporate the ass variable into a mac.
or is that a diccerent project altogether?
i'm thinking of course of this picture: http://www.buckeyemonkey.com/images/ass.jpg
Ok... here goes... the cheapest dual Opteron system I can build, based on the 1.8ghz Opteron 244:
Mobo: MSI K8T Master2-FAR $220
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
HDA1: WD800JD 7200RPM 80GB SATA $ 75
VID: GeForceFX 5200 $ 55
DVD: 8X DVD+/-RW $ 90
CASE: Lian-Li PC-V1000 $200
PWR: Antec TRUE430 $ 70
MISC: keyboard, mouse, fans, etc.$ 50
=====
total $1540
So you're talking about a system that's about $1540 pre-shipping (which would probably run close to $100). And that's with the cheapest motherboard and RAM money can buy.
The dual 1.8ghz machine with otherwise similar specs from Apple is $1999. So you're paying a premium for quality system design and support, and software.
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
If you want the machine, buy it and upgrade incrementally. There's no law that says that the second you buy your machine you have to load it up with memory and disk.
My dual 2ghz G5 performs great with the stock 512mb RAM. I've upgraded it to 3.5gb, and there is a difference (mainly in switching applications), but the system with its stock RAM configuration is perfectly usable.
My 160gb system disk lasted about 8 months before I had to buy a new 250gb to fit the empty slot. I would have gained nothing by buying the 250g disk with the system.
Apple makes fantastic computers, and I'm a fanatical Apple loyalist -- but you'll get everything cheaper if you go to Fry's(*) or shop on the net for components like memory and disk. Memory upgrades are universally about triple the going rate if you get them from Apple, and Apple's brilliant case design makes them easy to install.
Always upgrade incrementally. It will let you spread the financial pain and you'll enjoy getting the performance boost treats spread over time.
Hope that helps.
D
(*) If you're not in California, you may have never heard of Fry's. It's a huge retail store, designed by scions of a prominent supermarket family, that works basically like a supermarket for computer gear. If it exists, and it has to do with computers or salty snacks, it's probably hiding somewhere in Fry's, waiting patiently for you to discover it.
The myth that Apple is more expensive is just not true, as anyone who has done a serious comparison of features will tell you.
Sorry, but it used to be true. The G5's are the first systems Apple offered that are a reasonable deal compared to PC's. Honestly, I'd like to see a $1000 machine based on a 1.6ghz G5. Then Apple would really turn some heads.
And Apple monitors, while excellent, are still too pricey. They need a $400 17" DVI-D only model or something.
Look at the iMacs... a 1ghz G4 with a 15" LCD for $1300? I could get a MUCH faster Athlon64 system for that with more RAM and disk space, plus it would be upgradable.
Yeah, you're paying for the software and the "experience", but frankly, most people don't care enough to plunk down the extra cash, and they still have to pay another $200 (or more) for MS Office when cheaper PC's come with it for free.
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
You wouldn't get a warranty with the Opteron system, not that you get a great one with the Apple, but it's better than nothing.
OS X is definitely worth something, although if you're coming from a Linux POV you might think that OS's should be free. I'm willing to pay for some ease of use and elegance.
For my money, the Mac is a better deal, and arguably cheaper.
the rumor sites picked up on the LCD promo ending 2 days before WWDC (end of June) so they guessed Displays and PowerMacs maybe at the same time....
they also noted the fine print of the promo listed display by part number, so if a metallic 23inch came out sooner, it would not qualify for the discount per say.
though looking at the Apple site now i am only seeing a $500 off 23inch LCD with G5 purchase.... so i dont know if i am missing it of only the 23inch is on sale.
Tom Boger, Apple's Director of Power Mac Product Marketing:
"All-in-all, no we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon"
Excuse me, but it IS a heat pipe and it's NOT pump driven.
FYI, I did RTFA and see this:
This system provides a continuous flow of thermally conductive fluid that transfers heat from the processors as they work harder. The heated fluid then flows through a radiant grille, where air passing over cooling fins returns the fluid to its original temperature.
That is clearly how a heat pipe works.
Furthermore, in relation to your question to another poster:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...
To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.
They did do it without a pump. And it's still a heat pipe. Heres how:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature.
By adjusting the speed of the fan that blows air through the radiant grille, they can control the cooling efficiency of the radiant grille.
So with the dynamically changed airflow, which in turn changes the temperature, the result will be a change in the pressure in the area covered by radiant grille within the closed system. This will cause a change in the speed at which the fluid flows.
Hence, Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid
Read it properly next time and apply some common sense... Oh wait, this is Slashdot..
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Apple has by far the best warranty experience that I have ever encountered. All systems come with 90 days phone support ("I can't get OSX to do this" or "my machine is doing this") and a full year of hardware support, over the phone ("shit broke"). I have a Powerbook G4 I bought in August of last year, and the 2 times I had to call support on it (once for the screen, it was a known manufacturing issue with the 15"s at the time, the other to fix the casing that wasn't reassembled properly, just a bit loose was all, nothing major) I was on the phone for a total of less than 10 minutes, calling during "peak" times, and was on hold for less than 30 seconds before I was talking to a Mac Genious (Apple's tech people, not someone just reading off of a screen prompt). When I got off the phone, a box was on it's way to me and arrived the next day to send it in for repair, and I got the machine back a day and a half later. No computer company that I know of, except for business-grade support can match that. And Apple's AppleCare warranty, which extends phone support and hardware warranty to 3 years, is only ~$250, which is cheaper than about any level of support that anyone else offers, and for a hell of a lot better service
I hate sigs...
you left out firewire 400/800 card and modem (don't believe that these are on the mobo).
does this support digitial audio i/o?
how is WiFI supported? (can it use a card, or does it have to take up a PCI slot?)
how much to add software equivalent to the following:
iLife (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand),
Art Directors Toolkit, EarthLink TotalAccess 2004, GraphicConverter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, QuickBooks for Mac New User Edition, Zinio Reader, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iSync, iCal, DVD Player, Classic environment, Xcode Developer Tools
esp: iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, QuickBooks
also, if you're using windows that cost should be added in
also, there's the warrantee and online service with the G5.
finally, you left out shipping costs (unless you can get those prices locally)
this narrows the gap somewhat.
Yeah - SURE it is. How do you explain the dual G5 with the blue light in the background then?