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New PowerMac G5s: Up to 2.5Ghz, Liquid Cooled
no_demons writes "Apple have just announced the new, completely dual-processor PowerMac G5 lineup. The models all sport an 8x SuperDrive, whilst new the dual-2.5GHz model also features an 'innovative liquid cooled heat sink,' available in July."
Already liquid cooled, and in a cool aluminium case, enough case fans for a hovercraft. What is left to do?
I promised my wife I wouldn't upgrade from my 800mHz 17" iMac overclocked to 900 with dual display to a G5 until they came out with a Dual 3Ghz, and I would get the 23" HD Studio display with it.
:P
Now I have to wait another year.
Bastards.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
I thought is was widely accepted that clock speed means nothing. Would a G5 2.5 GHz be comparable to and Intel check with the same clock speed or a AMD 2400+?
The dual thing is pretty cool for a pre-build box though...
----
That's great that new G5s are out, but am I the only one a little underwhelmed by the increase in proc speed? (Especially considering the "3Ghz in a year" when they were first announced).
:)
Anyway, sorry to be looking at the glass half-empty.
I think the 2.5 model, with the whiz-bang cooling and new chips, is the first next-gen G5, whereas the lower models are designed to clear out old supplies. November will see the real "bump" to 2.5/2.7/3.0 all-liquid series.
Here's a theory: The 2.5 is slated to start shipping in July, so maybe Apple is getting around the new-model-launch-delays bear? Will they announce and ship the "missing" 2.7 and 3.0 portions of the range in September, when they would have shipped anyway, even if they were announced today? "Clearing out the old machines and releasing the typical low-end 'shipping today' portion of the new model range, and keeping mum on the parts we would normally delay two months."
That said, they are still impressive machines, save for the GPU. Also, to the first poster, the top end chips are 2.5Ghz, not 1.5...
Now we know what all the extra space is for in the new G5 case design, to hold the liquid nitrogren tanks!
Urge to post... fading... fading... RISING!... fading... fading... gone.
I like the idea of liquid cooling but I also like simple systems. There's too much complexity here. So...
I've often pondered creating a sealed aluminum case with integrated heatsink. Stick the components in and fill it with dielectric oil in order to create a huge, passive heat sink (like a big transformer or whatever). Thoughts? I almost got around to this but stopped after submerging an old hard drive in some dielectric - if you seal the breating hole, it works fine (I believe the hole is there to relieve pressure differentials caused by changes in altitude so it should be fine in a stationary location).
Provided that the dielectric has good enough heat transfer, this should work, no?
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
From the Apple link:
Each of the four thermal zones is equipped with its own dedicated, low-speed fans. Apple engineered the nine fans to spin at very low speeds for minimum acoustic output. Using 21 different sensors, Mac OS X constantly monitors component temperatures in each zone, dynamically adjusting individual fan speeds to the appropriate levels for the quietest possible operation. As a result, the Power Mac G5 runs two times quieter than the previous Power Mac G4 enclosure.
Nine fans and 21 sensors, generating half as many decibels. Now I'm not an Apple fan-boy but that's the level of attention to detail that seperates Apple from Dell, etc.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Did anyone else notice that the lower processor on this diagram doesn't appear to be turned on?
Come on, Apple. I want purple and red water coming out of both processors!
-ch
The dual 1.8 and dual 2.0 GHz machines come with an "NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra" graphics card. Isn't that card pretty low-end (or midrange at best)? Is it just me, or should a 2,000+ dollar machine come with a decent graphics card?
Of course, the whole point of a tower is that you can replace the card, but when you're already paying 2,500 USD, should you have to?
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
I doubt that the art guys checked with the science guys before illustrating the CPU cooling design, unless that lower CPU is either A)Off or B) Magical.
I read the little blurb on the site but I don't understand what is innovative about the liquid cooling they are doing? Or is it liquid cooling that is innovative?
If I recall my log scales correctly, "two times quieter" would equal 3db quieter. Not exactly revolutionary, but a step in the right direction.
There may come new Displays (20, 23 and 30 inch with the known aluminum brushed metal look) to the WWDC, as reportet here.
Think Secret writes they may even come with DVI port.
>> Had I been going to bed earlier every night? Have I been sleeping later? Has Tyler been in charge longer and l
and that the new machines have more than two drive bays!
I do (very) high end post production for a living and I wanted to replace my G5s with the new machines because I needed internal RAID arrays of more than 2 drives. Two drives will not give you the bandwidth you need for HD or digital cinema formats. I can't use solutions like WiebeTech's G5 Jam because my full length PCI cards take up the space.
I looked on the web site and it looks like the new machines didn't put in new drive bays in front of the CPUs (as was mentioned on some rumor sites). Am I wrong? Is there a way to add more drives?
Bandwidth in my work is more important than CPU speed.
I'm surprised that the 2 new offerings from Apple were simply put out on the web without any Steve Jobs fanfare. I like it when Steve shows it first, he allows into his RDF. I guess overall it's not the update I was hoping for, the video card should have been upped as well.
I think it's pretty safe to say we're gonna have an all new iMac at WWDC. It's the other upgrade everyone's been waiting for. Aluminum iMac? We'll see.
Difficult to tell from the article, but the liquid cooling system looks similar to that found in Shuttle XPCs The article says that OS X can vary the flow of the liquid though. Very nice though, looks like they have thought about noise, which is good.
2) Fast video cards are nice, but if I want a gaming machine I'll get a PS2.
3) Yes, only 256MB of RAM on the 1.8GHz. You need more, buy it from somewhere else. Apple overprices their RAM
The real development here is the liquid cooling. It's a big step forward, because this means that they might be able to put faster processors into the Powerbooks, and they'll be ready for 3GHz and faster processors once IBM overcomes the Voodoo Curse.
I'm a little disappointed, but since I have to save for a wedding, I'm kind of glad they're waiting to release the dual 3GHz. It will be easier to convince my future wife that we need it when we aren't dropping $5000 next week for a payment.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Macs run Windows XP a hell of a lot faster than a PC can run Mac OS X.
Post: Sigged, for your pleasure.
And yet AMD64 series has managed to be the fastest out there. For much less too.
Its only 3 dB less. Remember that funky math that we said we'd never use? 2x the noise = +3dB. You can get more difference than this by simply switching your ghetto case fan for a good one. Unless of course Apple MEANT 1/2 the dB, which is a meaningless number w/o a reference: 1/2 the dB of a 6dB source is 3dB, or half the volume. 1/2 the dB of a 50 dB source is more significant.
So before we all drop to our knees on this one, lets consider the physics.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
...and multiple fans: Apple does it because they want to keep the machine as quiet as possible while still as cool as possible (as opposed to being forced to do it, lest the processor become hotter than the surface of the Sun).
(They don't do it because the PowerPC 970 family is "so hot", either; the PowerPC 970, and the 970FX even moreso, run much cooler, and require less power, than even the newest generation PowerPC 74xx (G4) family processors: )
Also, new PowerPC 970FX information from IBM is now available.
Actually, the one I saw the guy built a custom styrofoam cooler/case, put in all his goodies except the power supply, then filled it up with some odd and expensive 3m non-conductive liquid...actually I think he used mineral oil first, but that turned out pretty gooey... Then put in a pump and started pumping liquid from the bottom to the top where it dropped over a coolant radiator.
Yeah- that's a long way to go to attempt overclocking, but it was pretty neat.
IIRC, it ended up overheating anyway because the liquid got less viscous (more??--more solid) the colder it got, and created isolated thermal heat nodes around the hot components. Would've been cool to see on an infrared scope...
Sig currently under construction. Mind the gap....
I am sure there is a place for a pony in there somewhere.
...as much as I care about the liquid cooling part. I remember liquid cooling my crappy little celeron, thinking it would never go mainstream because of my belief at the time that water + electricity = bad.
Now, we've got liquid cooled technology backed by Apple. It's pretty sweet, considering you either have to buy a specially designed freon pumping case, or a $500 video card to reap the benefits of this kind of cooling.. Now all you've gotta do is buy a $3000 Mac.
Sarcasm aside, I think this shows that soon, the PC's on the shelves will mostly all be using some sort of heat pipe / water cooling technology.
I'm not a Mac fanboy, don't own one, but this really goes to show that Apple can and does set standards for personal computing. With major backing like this, it's only a matter of time before it trickles down to where everyone can be using it for a relatively cheap price. Way to go, Apple.
I just orded a Mac II like 3 days ago!!! thanks again Jobs.
Meh, if you were a REAL GEEK you would settle for a drive-through wedding(while messing with your powerbook) and put off honeymoon activities until you got an FP on your new G5!
More precisesly, Water is a subset of liquid.
Gasoline and alcohol are also liquids, but will have a distictly different effect on you when consumed...
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
Powermac G5 updates down - iMac G5 and Powerbook G5 to go!
Frickin "LA-ZER" Beams.
You know, there uses for these 'puter things other than tinkering with the 'puter itself.
--- Ban humanity.
...my computing has always been liquid-cooled.
It's just to keep it quiet.
It's a common misconception that Apple *needed* the elaborate cooling mechanism they designed for the G5. They didn't design it to keep the chips cool, they designed it to keep the chips cool quietly. The G5, I'm told, actually runs cooler than the high-end P4 chips. It runs hotter than the G4 for sure, but it's not like there's a miniature fusion reactor in your tower or anything.
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
Many of the UNIX nerds I know would be much happier with this dream machine.
For more information, click here.
Nice specs. I like Apple stuff, but I still honestly don't know why Apple speedbumps are always front page news, especially when we have a dedicated Apple section to deal with minor announcements like hardware releases. Dell, IBM, or HP don't make the front page for every Mhz bump, let alone have their own section on Slashdot.
I would bet that 99% of us can't name one product from the HP lineup, but can name off the PowerMac, PowerBook, iMac, iPod, iTunes, iBook, etc. even though most of us don't own one and are far more likely to encounter an HP anywhere in the real world. I rarely see tv ads for Apple, and it's even more rare for me to meet another Apple user in the world (ONCE at Starbucks and once at Future Shop) but I read about Apples daily on Slashdot. We are all well acquainted with them due to our exposure here. I have no problem with that; it's better than Windows getting exposure, if only because we need more diversity, but I do have minor doubts as to the editorial discretion which leads to most Apple stories making the front page as well as their subsection.
Read into this what you will, but if I were HP or Dell, I'd start submitting articles to Slashdot. It's free publicity with a large section of the computer-buying public, and it doesn't seem hard to spin a typical product announcement into a "techie" story that would get accepted as News by the editors.
I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."
Thats a completely worthless argument. Mac OS X is designed to ONLY run on apple processors. It is designed to use RISC. Windows XP is designed to work with x86 instructions, which are quite easy to emulate. RISC instructions are almost impossible to emulate on x86 CISC processors. So you can't really use that to say that the Mac is faster.
Oh, wait a second.
Ok, forget Bill. But look at open source guys: THOSE people know how to hit release dates. At least I think they do because it seems like every other day Slashdot is announcing availability of version 4.31.57.111 of some software package I've never heard of. Or are those really secret IP addresses for some conspiracy to which I haven't been invited?
Actually, I was trying to be Insightful, not Funny.
That would be Fluorinert. Not a bad idea. NASA had a fluorinert-filled heatsink inside a mylar bag that I used once. Geez. Its still here. I need to clean out my desk more often.
PCI-X is twice as fast as PCI and is a replacement for PCI. PCI-E is a replacement for AGP and is twice as fast as AGP 8x. PCI-Express boards will have multiple PCI-X slots for sound cards, network cards, etc, and one PCI-E slot for the graphics card.
Wow, that's a sign of desperation. I've heard tidbits of information at the major tech news sites that although IBM boasts it can get to 3GHz on the PPC970 architecture, and that a G5's power consumption is very nicely low at 2GHz, that changes very quickly as the speed starts to ramp. The fact that they need watercooling stock to get to 2.5GHz seems to confirm this.
This is quite disturbing. It confirms the overall signs that photolithography scale shrinks aren't working anymore. I had thought that perhaps Intel's problems with Prescott were an isolated incident, but it doesn't seem so now. AMD has only just begun experimenting with 90nm, and now it appears that IBM, the only company so far to have said anything positive about their progress at 90nm, is having to (it would seem) overclock their chips and watercool them to get to a stable and quiet 2.5GHz..
------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
in contrast the mac case has layers of flowing air no thicker that what is probably the thermal diffusion length. Air flows over the top and bottom of the hotest items and does so in one pass. Its beautiful. and mac planned this out from the beginning for expandability.
besides I like the cheese grater.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
The anemic RAM included is a good thing. Apple charges far too much for RAM. It's much cheaper to buy your RAM separately instead of upping the RAM on the config you order.
Steve promise 3.0GHz 10 months ago. He's still got 2 months to deliver a product announcement. And they wouldn't have to ship until september.
Apple always has a big announcement in late July. The 3GHz could be it. It could also be the new iMacs though (As Apple has stopped producing the current model as of this week).
"You've got an invalid haircut" -Warren Zevon - Life'll Kill Ya
Well, actually most all of it is done in 2D with OpenGL.
GL does have a couple 2D Drawing modes, GL_ORTHO, for instance, and cards hardware accelerate them. How do you think games draw their pretty little GUI's and menus and whatnot?
Interestingly enough, nobody's ever developed a really good benchmark for cards that can accurately compare card performances drawing to ortho's. Maybe 3DMark should include a test like this. I imagine that raw fill rate has the biggest impact here, but who knows what kind of crazy optimizations card manufacturers might have in there to help/hurt the 2D OpenGL performance in favor of the 3D.
Of course, Apple doesn't design the processors, they just integrate them.
I think that you should also say that "PowerPC has the advantage of a modern intruction set" rather than "Apple has the advantage of RISC". PPC's instruction set may be classified as RISC but is hardly "Reduced". Besides, the whole RISC/CISC argument was discredited long ago. Processor architectures and instruction sets are not closely coupled any more.
Incidently, the x86 instruction set is, in fact, incredibly efficient. Not ridiculously inefficient as you say. It was designed to be compact and powerful bit is quite hard to decode compared to RISC apporaches. Memory space is not as precious as it once was so x86's primary advantages are no longer valuable.
Nice speedbump - the new top-end dually is particularly nice. It's a pity that they couldn't get to the promised 3 GHz within the timeframe they planned, but a top end of 2x2.5 GHz with a bus speed of 1.25 GHz and PCI-X is still a pretty good box.
This should give a much-needed kick in the pants to Apple's Pro sales for a while. It'll be interesting to see what (and if) they show for hardware at WWDC, since we already had the G5 today and AirPort Express on Monday, with iTMS Europe next week.
If I had to guess, I'd say we'll get a G5 iMac now (maybe at 1.8 GHz), but I'm not too sure. It could turn out to be a software-only WWDC.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
I'm no hardware engineer, but looking at this artist rendering (akamai.net is an image host for all Apple.com images) of Apple's liquid cooling system, I think the processors are getting different cooling.
It would appear that the liquid passes over processor #1, then #2, then back to the heat sink to be diffused by the fan blowing over it. This would say to me that processor #2 is getting at best room temp water cooling, while proc #1 is getting cold water cooling.
Here's my reasoning: If the heat sink with the fan blowing over it can cool the water 2X degrees, then when it is leaving the cooling system it is at Room Temp (RT) - X degrees. It passes over both processors and returns to the cooling system at RT+X degrees, where it is cooled by 2X and leaves the system at RT-X, headed for the hot processors again, follow?
So here's the meat of it: both processors together heat the water up by 2X (see above). That means each processor heats the water by X, so when the cool water leaves, it is at temp RT-X, passes over the heat sink and it raised to (RT-X)+X=RT which then passes over the second processor and cools it to RT+X where it returns.
So the second processor is getting room temp water cooling while the first is getting RT-X cooling. What effect will this have on the system?
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
I must say that I am impressed. I am really not a big apple fan but the company seems to do just the right thing again and again. Starting with USB on the iMac back in 1998 they made a lot of cutting edge decisions wich came into mainstream just because Apple made them successful (WiFi, Firewire, MP3 players, legal musicdownloads, their stereo-wifi-hubbie-thing, TFTs, DVD-Burners) and so on).
Watercooling has been around for some time but no majorplayer implemented it. I bet that two years from now this could well be standard at Dells, HPs and so on...
Not even close.
:)
"Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature."
Try reading more carefully, thanks
What exactly is "innovative" about liquid cooling? It's been around for nearly as long as solid state computers, and it's widely used with PCs. So are variable speed cooling systems.
And talk about making lemonade out of lemons: Apple used to brag about how their chips dissipated less power and ran less hot, but now literally "sizzling performance" is supposed to be a selling point?
Frankly, I hate the fact that companies are figuring out that there are better ways to cool computers down.
You see, as long as they don't know about more effecient coolers, they keep their heat output much lower. This means two very important things...
First, it means I can spend $20 and replace the crap in my computer with almost completely silent fans, and very effecient heatsinks.
Second, it means that the computers aren't outputting as much heat. Once cooling solutions they use can handle cooling-down a 500WATT processor, you'll see 500WATT processors. This means much more electricity wasted for no reason, and (more importantly for me) it means while your system is running, it's ouputting 500WATTS of heat from the computer into the building where it is held. It's getting to the point where the biggest cost of running computers is the need to have massive air-conditioners installed, and running at their max, all the time.
Frankly, I can see us reverting back to ENIAC times. To run a computer you have to build a whole building for the thing, with massive airconditioners under the floorboards, and you have to notify the power company in advance when you want to turn it on, so you don't cause a black-out. The only difference is going to be inital purchase cost of the processors, which will be low, but on-going costs will be massively high.
Personally, I'm using ducting to limit the need for massive air-cooling here in the 130 degree desert summer, but that isn't perfect. Lots of heat still leaks into the building, but it's an improvement. If heat output levels continue to rise, it will be pointless, and practically impossible to have a server-room, frankly.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Did you look at the page?
The schematic clearly shows a closed circuit of pump driven fluid flowing past the CPUs getting heated and then flowing into a heat exchanger (takes the place of a holding tank, and is actually superior too one) with a fan blowing on it. This is exactly like a smaller version of the cooling system in a car. There is no phase change.
A heat pipe is completly different, it is a phase change driven system, and does not involve pumping, or traditional heat exchangers.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Bzzzttt. Thank you for playing.
PCI express is not just an AGP replacement. It is intended to completely replace PCI. PCI-X is/was a stopgap performance bump for those that needed it. PCI-e is the future.
Lump lingered last in line for brains, and the ones she got were sorta rotten and insane.
if only he used a realdoll.
viscosity of oil is pretty bad and flourinert is ok until about -40 degrees.
or you can, i don't know, buy liquid cooled system like ValuStar TZ that had liquid cooling for almost a year now? (Granted, maybe japan only)
So, can we say that MS copies off apple, but apple actually is copying off of NEC? kind of a hard fact to accept, but innovation would seem to be, erm, not so alive in the US these days...
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Low-end model is like $400 higher than it was yesterday.
Crap, I just barely got the OK to get one at work for that price..
I hate it when the price jumps up like that.
Macs are something you want seen. They're always used as movie props, and very pleasing to the eye. You might not want your beige box PC in plain view, runing your decor, but an iMac might be nice touch to a room.
As for the Apple coverage on /., well I think that is attributable to Apple getting it right (tm). Specifically, you have Unix with a GUI you don't have to dick around with to get working. They have achieved the holy grail of Unix+Usability and that is very attractive to, at least IMO, the people that care about computers, e.g., slashdotters. *shrug*
-truth
I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...
several words : If you're using hardware that only has OS9 drivers classic doesn't help. If you need to run OS9 audio/video apps, classic is too slow. Also, some people are happy with os9 and dont want to buy new app upgrades. For them, running OS9 natively makes far more sense.
As an aside, three word replies are really not very useful if you're tryin to make a serious point.
~Pev
I was a little upset when I spotted the upgrades early this morning because I just ordered a G5 1.8x2 the day before last. Imagine my delight when I got an email this morning from them offering to let me change my order. So now I'm getting a G5 2x2 for a hundred bucks less. Booyah!
Looking like OSX isn't the point.
The user experience is what Macs are all about. Running OSX, not just looking like it, and having a wonderfully engineered case.
A PC running any OS it is capable of is like a bitching Camaro kicking ass in the straight-away.
A Mac is like a BMW z4 taking on a winding road.
You either get it or you don't.
Sorry to brag but I just had to get one! Here's what I got.
Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
512MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x256
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon 9800 XT w/256MB DDR SDRAM
56k V.92 modem
Bluetooth Module
AirPort Extreme Card
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English
Accessory kit
Estimated Total:
$3,384.58
I can't wait!
Think Secret is reporting that new displays are due soon. The new displays apparently will be DVI only -- no more ADC. (The 30" display requires 150W, which ADC couldn't handle.)
What puzzles me is the GPUs currently in these new G5s -- they seem to be dual-head ADC+DVI. That's not terribly useful once ADC goes the way of the dodo. If you're in the market for the new displays, it might be worth holding off on the G5 a few weeks, in order to get a DVI+DVI video card.
...Apple could just be trying to keep the machine quiet in response to complaints by its users about the noisy fans in the previous G4/G5 cases.
I've always wondered about this. I've been programming computers for over five years, and I've *never* seen a program crash or behave strangely because of a 'bit error' before... needless to say, I've also never used ECC RAM in my workstation computer. Is this really a threat? What are the odds of seeing a bit error with normal non-error-correcting RAM?
Comment of the year
I meant for the "me want" to be in quotes, and indeed used the HTML quot; symbol. It didn't show up.
Now with more Speed Holes!(TM)
fs
Here's a better thing. How about they don't overcharge so much for RAM?
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Mudflaps. With the nekkid ladies on 'em.
What, am I the only redneck who owns a mac?
Even cheaper: just suggest to your fiancee that you should have a cheap wedding you you can afford more computers, and then you get to have no wedding at all, absolutely free!
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
That would be Fluorinert. Not a bad idea.
All the good parts of the Cray T90 were immersed in a big tank of Fluorinert.
I write in my journal
well it's also the chip's design. the Apple (and IBM/Moto) designs (and AMD to some extent) "do more work" per clock cycle. that's part of the reason some are better for some processes (though software is key too). think of it like a racecar vs a truck. a racecar revs really fast and flies, but carries one passenger. a truck revs lower but can tow a house. if you had a relay race of the two that had to transport 300 people across a distance the truck could win since it could haul everyone in one or two trips. it's the same way the G5 (or G4) tries to "do more" with every clock cycle compared to Intel just trying to go really really fast.
it really comes down to attacking the same problem from different methods.
Don't be an ass. Yes, the 9800XT is fast, but:
- It's Build-To-Order only
- It takes up an extra slot
Apple's top-end stock GPU, the 9600XT, is mid-range at this point. The other G5s still use the FX5200, which SUCKS HAIRY GOAT these days and does not belong in Apple's officially designated "Pro" machines.Doubling the acoustic energy (in watts) does in result in a 3db measured change in SPL, but that is a barely noticeably change in the (human) perceived volume level. Our ears are not linear devices, that is the reason that differences in loudness (sound pressure level) are represented logarithmically. 1 DB is considered to be so small a change as to be imperceptible (in nearly all cases) even though it represents a significant change in absolute acoustic energy (in watts).
This points out why it is so difficult to keep things quiet, (and why this was a significant change) you must reduce the acoustic energy tenfold in order to halve the perceived loudness.
for a quick definition of sound pressure level http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE- 06/teces_06.html
althought impressive with the blue light thingy, i'm more interested in how you are going to incorporate the ass variable into a mac.
or is that a diccerent project altogether?
i'm thinking of course of this picture: http://www.buckeyemonkey.com/images/ass.jpg
That's the same way we count summer here. It's from June 21st to September 21st, or approximately, depending on when the summer solstice and fall equinox occur.
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
Did that include the cost of the OS and equivalents of all the other software goodies in the Apple package? Or all the nickel and dime extras you need for a PC that come with a Mac. And I can't be too surprised when you compare a single processor system with a dual processor system and then declare the single processor to be less expensive. And when you say the single processor system is faster you may be technically correct, but I wonder if it will do more work; which is what really matters imho.
The myth that Apple is more expensive is just not true, as anyone who has done a serious comparison of features will tell you.
I happen to have three Athlon 64 systems and two G5 systems. I spend time on all of them as a mercenery for hire, but I believe that I'm most productive for my non-professional work on the Mac, which is where I put all my personal stuff.
Ok... here goes... the cheapest dual Opteron system I can build, based on the 1.8ghz Opteron 244:
Mobo: MSI K8T Master2-FAR $220
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
HDA1: WD800JD 7200RPM 80GB SATA $ 75
VID: GeForceFX 5200 $ 55
DVD: 8X DVD+/-RW $ 90
CASE: Lian-Li PC-V1000 $200
PWR: Antec TRUE430 $ 70
MISC: keyboard, mouse, fans, etc.$ 50
=====
total $1540
So you're talking about a system that's about $1540 pre-shipping (which would probably run close to $100). And that's with the cheapest motherboard and RAM money can buy.
The dual 1.8ghz machine with otherwise similar specs from Apple is $1999. So you're paying a premium for quality system design and support, and software.
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
Lol that was a picture a friend took on his girlfriends camera, as a joke while on vacation. Unfortunely for him the camera ended up in somebody else's luggage, and I subsequently posted it on the 'net, cause hey, why not?
If you want the machine, buy it and upgrade incrementally. There's no law that says that the second you buy your machine you have to load it up with memory and disk.
My dual 2ghz G5 performs great with the stock 512mb RAM. I've upgraded it to 3.5gb, and there is a difference (mainly in switching applications), but the system with its stock RAM configuration is perfectly usable.
My 160gb system disk lasted about 8 months before I had to buy a new 250gb to fit the empty slot. I would have gained nothing by buying the 250g disk with the system.
Apple makes fantastic computers, and I'm a fanatical Apple loyalist -- but you'll get everything cheaper if you go to Fry's(*) or shop on the net for components like memory and disk. Memory upgrades are universally about triple the going rate if you get them from Apple, and Apple's brilliant case design makes them easy to install.
Always upgrade incrementally. It will let you spread the financial pain and you'll enjoy getting the performance boost treats spread over time.
Hope that helps.
D
(*) If you're not in California, you may have never heard of Fry's. It's a huge retail store, designed by scions of a prominent supermarket family, that works basically like a supermarket for computer gear. If it exists, and it has to do with computers or salty snacks, it's probably hiding somewhere in Fry's, waiting patiently for you to discover it.
The myth that Apple is more expensive is just not true, as anyone who has done a serious comparison of features will tell you.
Sorry, but it used to be true. The G5's are the first systems Apple offered that are a reasonable deal compared to PC's. Honestly, I'd like to see a $1000 machine based on a 1.6ghz G5. Then Apple would really turn some heads.
And Apple monitors, while excellent, are still too pricey. They need a $400 17" DVI-D only model or something.
Look at the iMacs... a 1ghz G4 with a 15" LCD for $1300? I could get a MUCH faster Athlon64 system for that with more RAM and disk space, plus it would be upgradable.
Yeah, you're paying for the software and the "experience", but frankly, most people don't care enough to plunk down the extra cash, and they still have to pay another $200 (or more) for MS Office when cheaper PC's come with it for free.
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
You wouldn't get a warranty with the Opteron system, not that you get a great one with the Apple, but it's better than nothing.
OS X is definitely worth something, although if you're coming from a Linux POV you might think that OS's should be free. I'm willing to pay for some ease of use and elegance.
For my money, the Mac is a better deal, and arguably cheaper.
the rumor sites picked up on the LCD promo ending 2 days before WWDC (end of June) so they guessed Displays and PowerMacs maybe at the same time....
they also noted the fine print of the promo listed display by part number, so if a metallic 23inch came out sooner, it would not qualify for the discount per say.
though looking at the Apple site now i am only seeing a $500 off 23inch LCD with G5 purchase.... so i dont know if i am missing it of only the 23inch is on sale.
Tom Boger, Apple's Director of Power Mac Product Marketing:
"All-in-all, no we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon"
That's true if you're only looking at the desktop side. On the laptop side, Macs have been a good deal for about the last 3 years (when the dual-USB iBooks were introduced).
He decided to just watch the government, and kind of scale it down to size, and run his life that way. --Laurie Anderson
Not to mention all the software loaded on it?
It's one thing to spec-out a bunch of parts and call that your 'cost'.
It's quite another to hand build a 100 machines yourself...
It just seems to me you forgot your labor costs...
I don't know about you, but my consulting rate is high enough that the Mac is already cheaper when assembly time is factored in.
Thank you.
Some people know the value of time, and can get someone to actually pay it.
Sometimes, buying the very first product you find that will solve your problem is the most economical solution.
(Not to be confused with the optimal or best solution.)
And, if you are doing it to make money... that is the "right" solution.
--Phillip
Can you say BIRTH TAX
Excuse me, but it IS a heat pipe and it's NOT pump driven.
FYI, I did RTFA and see this:
This system provides a continuous flow of thermally conductive fluid that transfers heat from the processors as they work harder. The heated fluid then flows through a radiant grille, where air passing over cooling fins returns the fluid to its original temperature.
That is clearly how a heat pipe works.
Furthermore, in relation to your question to another poster:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...
To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.
They did do it without a pump. And it's still a heat pipe. Heres how:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature.
By adjusting the speed of the fan that blows air through the radiant grille, they can control the cooling efficiency of the radiant grille.
So with the dynamically changed airflow, which in turn changes the temperature, the result will be a change in the pressure in the area covered by radiant grille within the closed system. This will cause a change in the speed at which the fluid flows.
Hence, Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid
Read it properly next time and apply some common sense... Oh wait, this is Slashdot..
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
I notice you didn't counter my point regarding the reasonableness of comparing dual and single processor systems.
For nickel and dime items we can start with a free, full blown, industrial strength developer package for multiple languages. I use Visual Studio for x86 development, and Apple's free package is arguably better and can be used for both x86 and PowerPC development. In fact I build x86 projects using the Mac developer environment daily.
As far as cost is concerned, wander over to Dell's site and configure a dual processor Xeon system with approximately the same feature set as the Mac. You will find (if you do an honest comparison of features) that the Dell comes out about $500 more expensive. And an Opteron is considerably more expensive than a Xeon, last time I looked.
Look at how even 2.5GHz has to be liquid-cooled to be stable enough with the old transistor fabrication process.
What's wrong with liquid cooling? It is the future of computing. Fans are good but Apple is really trying to change the personal computer. What they do design-wise and technology-wise usually influences the overall computer market (e.g., end of floppy drives; WiFi; 64-bit processors). Apple is breathing life into computers (although IBM could just make more efficient processors that don't put off as much heat but eventually we will need liquid cooling or something other than just fans to keep our computers cool).
The g5 iMacs are on schedule to be released in 2 weeks at the WWDC. Is this what you're asking for?
You know that being said, I'm not sure if I ever care if Apple's prices are cheapened or not. I mean, think of it in this analogy - I love BMWs, always have. I am making a crazy attempt to save for one which will or will not ever come to fruition. But do I want BMW to come out with a $16,000 car (mini coopers do not count) that skimps on some of the quality? No, that, my friend, is not a BMW.
Part of the price included in Apple's products is research and development for its sleek designs. I would not have it any other way.
Yeah, you're paying for the software and the "experience", but frankly, most people don't care enough to plunk down the extra cash,
I do, and have since 1993. There are many that feel the same. It's just a matter of preference, there is no "correct" computer purchase.
-- (Score:i , Imaginary)
Apple has by far the best warranty experience that I have ever encountered. All systems come with 90 days phone support ("I can't get OSX to do this" or "my machine is doing this") and a full year of hardware support, over the phone ("shit broke"). I have a Powerbook G4 I bought in August of last year, and the 2 times I had to call support on it (once for the screen, it was a known manufacturing issue with the 15"s at the time, the other to fix the casing that wasn't reassembled properly, just a bit loose was all, nothing major) I was on the phone for a total of less than 10 minutes, calling during "peak" times, and was on hold for less than 30 seconds before I was talking to a Mac Genious (Apple's tech people, not someone just reading off of a screen prompt). When I got off the phone, a box was on it's way to me and arrived the next day to send it in for repair, and I got the machine back a day and a half later. No computer company that I know of, except for business-grade support can match that. And Apple's AppleCare warranty, which extends phone support and hardware warranty to 3 years, is only ~$250, which is cheaper than about any level of support that anyone else offers, and for a hell of a lot better service
I hate sigs...
Apple often do that. I ordered my PowerBook a week before they released new models. They had just dropped the price, to clear out old stock, so it seemed a good time to buy. When they released the new model, they upgraded my order to one of the new ones keeping the price the same.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
you left out firewire 400/800 card and modem (don't believe that these are on the mobo).
does this support digitial audio i/o?
how is WiFI supported? (can it use a card, or does it have to take up a PCI slot?)
how much to add software equivalent to the following:
iLife (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand),
Art Directors Toolkit, EarthLink TotalAccess 2004, GraphicConverter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, QuickBooks for Mac New User Edition, Zinio Reader, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iSync, iCal, DVD Player, Classic environment, Xcode Developer Tools
esp: iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, QuickBooks
also, if you're using windows that cost should be added in
also, there's the warrantee and online service with the G5.
finally, you left out shipping costs (unless you can get those prices locally)
this narrows the gap somewhat.
I think the language is ambigous, if you read the spec sheet (pdf) the language is specifically The liquid cooling system is also controlled by Mac OS X, which dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on the amount of heat being generated.". This would imply that the flow is not controlled by changing the fan speed. While your technical description seems correct given the picture, the language is a tad more confusing. We'll have to wait and see when apple puts out a more technical document on how it works.
Now, I read some Mac websites, and occasionally there and elsewhere, get trolled into the Mac vs. PC debate. I don't care much about it, but I will defend the Mac platform against falsehoods and bad arguments. One example of this is that people claim that Apple charges a premium for their machines.
So, about once a year, I do the following configuration exercise: Start with the base high-end Mac. Configure a high end Dell to match, modifying each to allow for configurations that are as similar as possible. The goal is to stick as close as I can to the base model, but make the two machines as identical as possible.
To do so, I use the online stores made available by each company, and try not to work with a bias that will create a cheaper Mac. Every year, the results are about the same... The Dell is a smidgeon more expensive. Let's try it again today, with new G5s just announced...
PowerMac G5, Dual 2.5 GHz G5, 512 MB DDR400 RAM, 250GB SATA HD, ATI Radeon 9600 XT (128 MB), 56k Modem, 8x SuperDrive. $3099.
and
Dell Precision Workstation 650, Dual 2.4 GHz Xeon, 612 MB DDR266 RAM, 250 GB SATA HD, nVidia QuadroFX 500 (128 MB), 56k Modem, 8x DVD-R, 48x CD (No CD-R). $3300.
This is just about the closest I could get. The software bundles are both the minumim, both have keyboard, mouse, etc. Neither has a monitor.
Of course, this is comparing a lower-end processor on the Dell with Apple's top of the line, to keep GHz closer, and Dell won't sell you a machine that burns both CDs and DVDs. Try configuring this with the dual 3.2 GHz Xeons at the top of the line at Dell, and using just a Combo drive in both, and the prices end up at $2999 for the Mac, and $5149 for the Dell. I still can't get a Dell with RAM as fast as the G5's, or with the equivalent of the SuperDrive, or with optical audio standard, and available fiber channel for storage. They also don't seem to offer liquid-cooling, bluetooth input options, etc.
Why do people always say Apple charges a price premium?
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Yeah - SURE it is. How do you explain the dual G5 with the blue light in the background then?
I use my Mac for actual work. I'm waiting for the PS3 to buy a console, and I've even put an Ethernet port next to my cable jack for it. Until then, I'm happy to play WarCraft III and UT2K4 in my spare time. They run wonderfully on my Powerbook. Through college I didn't have any trouble finding games to waste lots and lots of my time.
I would rather buy third party RAM than have Apple's profit margin cut. It's that 30% that allows them to put so much into hardware development. Sure, a $1600 G5 would be nice, but if it hurts development and bundled software (iLife is worth a whole lot more than $400), I will be patient.
I'm sure you could pick up a refurb, but that would involve extra effort, and you don't want to actually have to look for products, you just want them to be available.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Spell cheek you've failed me four the last thyme!
...what about DVD+R? Why the heck isn't Apple installing drives compatible with the "other" DVD standard?
That's why I wouldn't recommend this sort of thing when a new tech first comes out -- but the G5's have been out for a year, already!
And yes, Apple make money from high-paying customers, but think of what higher volumes could do to thier bottom line?
And what about businesses? In my company, all the artist-types want Macs, but they get Dells because they're half the cost. One guy who did make a case for a Mac was given a Dell LCD monitor because the Apple ones are too expensive. A sensible model like the one I described would be fantastic if aimed towards businesses, and paired with $400 17" LCD monitors.
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
I agree with you, but you left out something important: the 10 day "no questions asked here's another one" policy.
If you buy your Apple product (Mac, iPod, monitor, whatever) at an Apple retail store and you have ANY kind of problem with it at all in the first 10 days, take it back and they're GIVE YOU ANOTHER ONE RIGHT THERE ON THE SPOT.
This has happened to me twice. The first time, I had to send my 17" Studio Display in to have the backlight repaired. I took it to my local Apple Store so they could take care of the logistics of shipping and receiving and all that poop. When it came back 2 days later, it had a scratch right in the middle of the screen. I showed it to the guy at the Genius Bar, and he handed me a brand new Studio Display right there. I took it home.
The second time, it happened to my girlfriend's PowerBook. She bought it, then after the first week noticed a problem with the graphics card. While she was at work I returned it for her, and came home with a brand new one.
You don't get that kind of service often.
I write in my journal
No insults. No 'you're WRONG (because you got this little nitpicky fact wrong even though everything else was fine.)' No condescending attitude. And you even seem to know what you're talking about!
What's wrong with you? This is slashdot, for pity's sake.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Not going to happen. And for a reason. It's against apple philosophy.
When Steve jobs first came back to Apple they had a myriad of different computers with just about everything you could want, and some stuff you didn't. The problem was, you didn't know which one to buy. There were literaly too many choices, too much differentiation.
Steve came back and wipped the whole thing and said from now on, Apple was going to do things simple, and they would do it by redesigning the line into 4 groups. Entry desktop, entry laptop, pro desktop, pro laptop. And the 4 catagories were born. iBook, iMac, PowerMac, PowerBook. Originaly each one only had 3 options, fast faster and fastest (though that has since been uped to about 4 options) and the idea was that you could just go to the store, and buy exactly what you were looking for in teh range you were looking for it. More advanced users could customize them if they so chose.
The headless g5 mini would add a whole new catagory that would need a complimenting laptop line to go with it. Further more, it would further complicate the line, as now the line between low end / entry and high end / pro would become even more blury, which is exactly what Apple wants to avoid.
Provide choices, but make the distinctions between the choices clear. It's a hell of alot easier to explain the differenced between the i series and the power series than it is to explain the differences between say the dell dimensions
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
That reminds me of something I saw on VH1. It was in the 100-81 episode of Greatest Metal Moments. The show had some funny stuff in it, but got real lame towards number one.
Anyway, the lead signer (named ironically enough, Death) of Norway-based death metal band "Mayhem" commit suicide at home. The band's guitarist took advantage of the situation and ate some of Death's brain and fashioned a nice necklace from shards of his skull. Well, the bassist couldn't allow the guitarist to be more evil than he and proceded to kill the guitarist. He was sentenced to 21 years of jail for the murder. I can't help wondering what the drummer has planned. He simply can't let that stand now can he?
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
The expensive argument comes from the fact that Apple does not make an entire range of commodity machines. They make machines to meet certain markets. They target those markets, and, when they do a good job, the company makes money. They also use the best technology available to meet customer needs. The seldom skimp on technology to meet a price point.
The first mac was expensive. However, if you did not have skills and were trying to computerize a bussiness, the Mac was worth every peeny. I know this from direct experience.
The mac continued to be relitively expensive until the commodity market matured and created suitable and reliable products. This took about 5 years of so. At that point Apple could, for example, replace SCSI drives, which were realy elegent devices, with commodity drives. This allowed them, for example, to produce desktops for $1000 in the early 90's and, in the mid 90's, very credible laptop for about that same amount. Like now, there was really nothing else that met it's size, weight, and battery. Of course they also had the really expensive nice laptops for $4000.
To give you more data points, my early model G4 tower(2000?) was around $1200. I have upgraded it to OS X with 512MB ram and about 100GB HD. It is fast enough. Sure I could have bought a name brand PC for 2/3 as much, but it would have maxed out at 384MB ram and have no room for a second drive.
The quality price issue is still very real. A good example of this is firewire. Everyone laughs at firewire now, especially with so-called USB 2.0(now is that regular, hyper, or superduper?), but USB 2.0 is pretty new, isn't it? I certainly paid extra for Firewire, but not only do I have a daisy chain plug and play interface, I also do not have to upgrade my old machines just to achieve the performance that was economically availbe 3 or 4 years ago. The fact that I can keep reliable machines in service greatly decreases my strees level.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
I just ordered a refurbed 2.0Ghz G5 earlier today for $2000. I've been waiting for this rev because I knew the refurb prices would drop.
This will be my third refurb purchase from Apple. My first two were a 12" Powerbook and a 20GB iPod. I've been very happy with both (althought the iPod battery life has degraded a bit after a year). Apple refurbs have all exterior components replaced, so they at least appear brand new. They also have the same 1 year warranty as new products. If you are paranoid you can also purchase applecare contracts for refurbed items.
I highly recommend purchasing refurbed Apple products if you want significant savings off the retail price.
I saved:
iPod ($400 retail - $280 refurb) = $120
12"PB ($1600 retail - $1200 refurb) = $400
G5 ($2500 retail - $2000 refurb) = $500
So then, so far I have saved $1,020 by purchasing refurbished Apple products rather than buying new.