Sony VAIO U50 Reviewed In Depth

LabRat007 writes "PDA Buyer's Guide reviews the Sony VAIO U50/U70, the hybrid PC/PDA that has beaten both the FlipStart and OQO to market. The short version? They like it, but it's too expensive. Editor in Chief Lisa Gade provides the typically in-depth review, with pictures and words and everything." The design looks great, but the price -- yow!

Comments

"but it's too expensive."

[thing2b]

Is't the best technology expensive?

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[Trent05]

Is't the best technology expensive?

Yes, but here you are also paying heavy for the name. Which makes no sense since I doubt Sony makes there own boards and a lot of other hardware is most likely made by other manufacturers. With laptops and PDAs being relatively cheap nowdays, I'm curious if they'll sell enough to make a profit at a $2,000 price point.

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[Anonymous Coward]

No.
Exotic and esoteric technology is expensive because it requires research and development, but the heart of the problem for the PDA market is that it is a great idea as long as it is cheap.
That last part is where every OEM who has bought into this dumb idea has failed it. People who need small at all costs can afford to pay more, but for the mass market the assumption is that there will be these tiny things that will replace PCs AND --and this and is the part that is being missed-- they will be cheap.
If they're not cheap compared to a PC, then being small is absolutely irrelevant for the mass market. That's not to say there are no niche markets, but again, that's not the point.

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[Anonymous Coward]

"Is't the best technology expensive?"

Since you're asking, no.

Can you give me an example of where the best technology (not features) are the most expensive?

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[Anonymous Coward]

The $2000+ price is only from iCube, an importer. The price in Japan is significantly less, as I'd iamgine it would be here if Sony were to release it in the US.

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[slash.dt]

It's not the name, but the weak US dollar which is the culprit here.

In Yen the U50 is Y178500 and the U70 is Y210000

Fortunately for me my base currency is UK pounds and I live in Japan so I am laughing all the way from the Bank to Akiharibara.

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[timeOday]

Sony's stuff is never particularly cheap, but what direct competitors do they have for this thing? What's the low-price whitebox alternative?

This baby has a standard VGA output and can run (real) PowerPoint. This is the best thing I've seen for people who have to travel and give presentations.

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[wfberg]

Sony's stuff is never particularly cheap, but what direct competitors do they have for this thing? What's the low-price whitebox alternative?

Something like this?

Or this?

Or this,
this,
this,
this,
this
or
this?

(Add (bluetooth) keyboard where appropriate.. Or something like this.)

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[timeOday]

Which of those are acutally:

1) available and supported in the US
2) substantially cheaper than this Sony
3) run Windows (tablet edition OK, CE not OK)
4) have a vga video out
5) are as small as this one?

Most of those tablet PCs are bigger and not much cheaper (under 80% the cost) of the celeron version of this Sony.

Re:"but it's too expensive."

[Anonymous Coward]

As an industry veteran with 8 years experience working at a major trading company for these high-end tech products in Japan, I just want to inform US consumers as to why the prices are so inflated and the huge price discrepancy amongst e-retailers. Its not Sony, Toshiba or Panasonic that is overpricing products, its the e-retailers and companies that export these items into the US or around the world that are guilty of overpricing these high-tech gadgets. The reason why? One reason is many of the e-retailers for these Japan-only products donft actually have physical office locations in Japan and depend on local Japanese third-party buyers/couriers to purchase these items at either a retail store or an outlet mall. Once purchased at RETAIL PRCIES, these 3rd party buyers or couriers markup the prices to include there commissions/service charges and offer an already inflated wholesale price to these e-retailers online. To add to the 3rd party markup calculated on a base retail store price instead of a wholesale trading company price quote, most US based e-retailers must first ship the purchased units to the US for reconfigurations by English speaking technicians instead of utilizing drop shipping cost advantages. This means doing reconfigurations in Japan and shipping them directly to US customers. After these 3rd party markups and shipping charges are calculated, these e-retailers then tack on their own sales commission calculated on overhead/operational expenses and profits. If you do a search on Google for any Japan-only product such as the new Sony Vaio U50 notebook, you will soon realize there are only a handful of e-retailers offering this notebook with retail prices ranging from $1,835 (Sonibee.com) to $2700 (Dynamism.com). I know what the wholesale prices are here in Japan and know what retailers in Japan pay. In your review you mention that the price range for the U50 is $2,200 to $2,700 but in actuality its more like $1,835 to $2700. This is almost a price discrepancy of $865.00!! As you go through each site and do a price comparison you will begin to see a huge discrepancy between various websites. One reason I have already mentioned above and the other is strictly because there are so very few retailers or International suppliers who sell these notebooks. For all countries excluding Asia, there are only a handful of e-retailers or suppliers of these Japan-only gadgets and notebook computers that handle sales outside of Asia. Itfs no wonder these e-commerce websites can get away with charging such exorbitant premiums since there is such high demand but very few suppliers. Why are there so very few retailers or suppliers for notebooks that are sure to sell well in other countries? There only a few ways in which a person or company can attain a notebook computer or high-end gadget here in Japan. Either they go to a regular store and purchase an item at retail, through a 3rd party supplier who has connections to trading company or through a trading company directly. The key point to acknowledge here is that you must be in Japan in order to purchase the high-tech item. Why? The marked up product in question, which in almost all cases is a Japan-only product, cannot be purchased by someone outside the Japan due to the warranty. Clearly stated on the packaging, selling a notebook that was only intended for the Japanese market is a clear violation of the warranty and as a result, it will no longer be valid. Japanese trading companies or retailers DO NOT want to be held responsible in case servicing is needed for International purchasers. That means as a retailer who has sold to someone outside Japan, they have to pay for the repairs if needed. Calling-in for an order or inquiring from overseas is absolutely pointless because they will refuse to sell. This and other difficulties finding connections in Japan has resulted in only a few e-retailers who sell Japan-only gadgets and notebook computers. Again, with only a few suppliers and very high demand, these e-retailers can get away with extremely high premiums and ove

More Pictures

[krut]

More pictures at http://www.dynamism.com/u70/gallery.shtml

Re:More Pictures

[spj524]

HA! It has a built in Ctrl-Alt-Delete button! I guess we should have seen that one comming.

Re:More Pictures

[beuges]

yeah, you should have. windows can be configured to only display the logon box once you've pressed ctrl-alt-del, which apparently is trapped by the kernel, and can't be intercepted by a fake logon dialog to sniff your logon details.

its a pity that when microsoft implements security features, people still find ways to mock them.

Re:More Pictures

[danheskett]

It was a good idea.. secure login path.. then MS went ahead and undid themselves.. putting in kernel level overide hooks that will let DirectX application intercept or nullify those keystrokes...

Re:More Pictures

[smittyoneeach]

What do you mean?
Ctrl-Alt-Del, itself, is an example of physical security. Tell me you've never hit the wronf key...

Re:More Pictures

[Ch_Omega]

Well, it's not allways used only to access the task manager to kill processes, or reboot a totally freezed system. In f.eks. Win2k, you use the key kombo to log in, and this button will make this easier than to fumble with the stylus and sticky-keys.

Re:More Pictures

[dekeji]

Ctrl-Alt-Del, itself, is an example of physical security. Tell me you've never hit the wronf key...

In IT, "security" means "protection from malicious attackers", while "safety" means "protection from accidental errors".

So, choosing a difficult-to-type key combination for this function may be an example of safety (safe UI design), but it is not an example of security.

The use of Control-Alt-Delete as a secure attention key, however, is an example of security because it makes it hard for attackers to present a fake login. However, making the key hard to type is not necessary for its security purpose; they could have picked F10 as the secure attention key.

Re:More Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

HA! It has a built in Ctrl-Alt-Delete button! I guess we should have seen that one comming.

But does it have an "any" key?

Re:More Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

They couldn't use F10 as the secure attention key and allow applications that use F10 to continue to work, unless they also allow fake login programs to work.

The choice of ctrl-alt-delete is because it was the only key combo guaranteed to be unused by Windows/DOS applications because it originally reset the machine.

Re:More Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, security has a whole spectrum of meanings, depending on to whom you speak and what they're selling. Possibly a few references to support your use of the verb 'means' would bolster your position, sir.
R,
smitty_one_each, posting anonymously, because I would probably puke if my actual COUNT(postings) were shown me.

Re:More Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, security has a whole spectrum of meanings, depending on to whom you speak and what they're selling. Possibly a few references to support your use of the verb 'means' would bolster your position, sir.

It's in your dictionary. Both "security" and "safety" have multiple meanings: they describe both conditions and preventive measures. As conditions, their meanings overlap (absence of risk, danger, etc.), but that meaning describes attitudes and feelings and doesn't apply here.

As preventive measures, "security" means "protection from deliberate human threats", while "safety" means "protection from accidents". "Home security" doesn't mean the same as "home safety", "computer security" doesn't mean the same as "computer safety".

Perhaps a short trip to the library would bolster your understanding of what the noun means. Or just type "computer security" into Google. You'll get lots of sites about computer crime, not software bugs.

Re:More Pictures

[dst749]

They use control-Alt-Delete because if you have noticed that brings up the Windows task manager or the logon screen. It is a security feature because at one time a good programmer could write a program that looked like a logon screen and when the user typed in his password then the program could capture the password. With the control-alt-delete feature then instead of bringing up a login screen a task manager will now show.

Besides if it bothers you, you can disable it from the group policy editer

Why isn't it a tablet?

[mrchaotica]

This seems like almost the perfect form-factor for a Tablet PC, since it's small enough to actually hold in only one hand, and big and powerful enough to write legible text, and do decent recognnition of it.

Re:Why isn't it a tablet?

[dekeji]

Among other things, because it doesn't meet Microsoft's Tablet PC specs.

Also, Windows applications tend to be pretty resolution and display-size dependent; Tablet PC apps wouldn't work well on this thing.

At this point, Linux probably has the most applications available for devices of this form factor, due to projects like handhelds.org.

Re:Why isn't it a tablet?

[wombatmobile]

Because Sony wants to sell some.

Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[Kehl]

I just want a PDA / Phone that will happily run Nethack. Sony Clios will but they also run Windows CE - so sod that!
The Psion Series 7 has a bespoke release of Nethack ... anybody had any experience with it?

Re:Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[dammitallgoodnamesgo]

Erm, Clios are Palm devices...

Re:Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[Arathrael]

I play Nethack on my Sharp Zaurus SL5500.

Screenshots and other info here.

Re:Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[freitasm]

Sony Clie devices run Palm OS, which is very different from Windows CE...

Re:Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[flanderz]

I play nethack on my cell phone :) (SonyEricsson P800). A bit slow when using a stylus instead of a keyboard, but it's playable.

Re:Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[itoledo]

Nethack IS available on Windows CE. I play it in my iPaq 3970 (PDA).

here

Re:Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[Bif Powell]

Erm, for that matter, there's no such thing as a Sony Clio...

Re:Nethack PDA Version - Slightly OT

[dammitallgoodnamesgo]

That's the sort of mistake you make when you spend all day at work, reading and writing Japanese...

Not small

[Anonymous Coward]

enough to be a PDA, and not big enough to want to sit in front of for a long time.

A 12" Apple Powerbook would perhaps be more useful, and leave plenty of money for ice-cream.

Re:Not small

[Anonymous Coward]

> A 12" Apple Powerbook would perhaps be more useful, and leave plenty of money for ice-cream.

What's so special about a 12" Apple PB compared to a 12" subnotebook from a different vendor? I'd rather have a e.g. 12" IBM X40, which is smaller and weight less than the PB, even with an external optical drive.

Re:Not small

[mrchaotica]

Because it's a Mac, of course!

But anyway, another one that'd be better than a Powerbook (for portability, anyway) would be the Sharp Actius MM-20, and it's probably cheaper than the IBM

Re:Not small

[Anonymous Coward]

The base prices don't differ much. But the point is, any time something like this comes up someone will bring up Apple portables, as if nobody else makes good notebooks.

Re:Not small

[Anonymous Coward]

Sharp do indeed make a good subnotebook, as do other vendors. I won't run Windows any more, and I'm *not sure* I could manage to successfully put Linux on one of these systems and have all the ports work properly and the graphics catered for correctly.

Re:Not small

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you terribly large pockets? I would use a bag for that Sony thing. And if I'm using a bag I may as well have something with a screen that is of a decent size. And if I want an operating system I certainly don't want Windows. Linux I fear may not cope with unusual hardware well. Therefore Mac OS X, which means buying a Mac.

Have you ever wondered *WHY* people are Mac fanatics?

Re:Not small

[mst76]

> What's so special about a 12" Apple PB compared to a 12" subnotebook from a different vendor?

If you buy a notebook today, you have roughly three mainstream OS choices: Windows, MacOS and Linux.

Personally, I feel Windows is actually a pretty decent choice. On good hardware, stability of XP/2K is comparable to Linux. The main weakness is the default insecurity. It can be hardened pretty well if you have the time and know what you're doing. Unfortunately, most people do not. I do blame Microsoft for this: it is unreasonable to expect people to muddle with dcomcnfg and registry hacks to close ports that should be closed by default. According to most accounts, XP SP2 should help a lot when it is finally released. We'll see.

I like Linux as much as the next guy, but setting up Linux on a laptop will take some time and patience if you want all your hardware to work. And often you can't get everything to work even with a lot time and patience. Are the Centrino drivers useable yet? Or most 802.11g PCCards? The usb-adsl modem that I got for free from the telco? Drivers for the SD card slot? 4Mbps irda? I'm not sure if I can completely blame the hardware manufacturers: if the Linux market penetration remains as it is, it makes sense economically to just ignore Linux.

For most users I think MacOS is a very good choice. The default installation is sensible and secure most of the time, and at least all hardware in your particular Mac is supported. Software selection is decent, with some exceptions (games?), and their laptops prices are quite competitive. The weakness is that Apple is only one company, so it cannot meet specialized needs like x86 laptop manufacturers. For example, if you want something REALLY small like those things on dynamism.com, you'd better look somewhere else. If you don't want a built-in optical drive, want a trackpoint, a 12"er with a PCCard slot, or a super high resolution (W)SXGA+/(W)UXGA screen, or a docking station, or even something as simple as a US (ANSI) keyboard layout in Europe (they only sell ISO-layout here), Apple has nothing to offer.

Re:Not small

[Anonymous Coward]

> Sharp do indeed make a good subnotebook, as do other vendors. I won't run Windows any more,

I do. The thing is, Windows' weaknesses (mainly security) are software based, and can be corrected/mitigated by the user. Apple's weaknesses (the 12" PB is rather heavy for a subnotebook, the real-life battery life is not too impressive, and the screen is not as good as e.g. the IBM X31 or some Vaio's I've seen) are in the hardware and cannot be corrected by users.

Re:Not small

[Sunnan]

Have you ever wondered *WHY* people are Mac fanatics?

I figured it was network externalities.

Re:Not small

[WormholeFiend]

makes me wonder if Apple is going to enter the handtop sector with a MiniMac

They should have stayed with the old U design

[mocm]

like the U1, U3 or U101. Right now I would rather get a PC-CV50F which has a great screen resolution and
the directHD feature which is very nice for synching or installing Linux.
Maybe if Sharp would turn the screen into a touchscreen, that would be the best of both worlds, the resolution of the Sony is just too low.

OQO is not much cheaper

[mst76]

The U50 and U70 are $2199 and $2699 respectively. The OQO will be "just under $2000". The Flipstart price hasn't been announced yet, but I'd be surprised if it will be much cheaper. These things will remain rich men's toys for the forseeable future.

Re:OQO is not much cheaper

[taseckob]

As an industry veteran with 8 years experience working at a major trading company for these high-end tech products in Japan, I just want to inform US consumers as to why the prices are so inflated and the huge price discrepancy amongst e-retailers. Its not Sony, Toshiba or Panasonic that is overpricing products, itfs the e-retailers and companies that export these items into the US or around the world that are guilty of overpricing these high-tech gadgets. The reason why?@One reason is many of the e-retailers for these Japan-only products donft actually have physical office locations in Japan and depend on local Japanese third-party buyers/couriers to purchase these items at either a retail store or an outlet mall. Once purchased at RETAIL PRCIES, these 3rd party buyers or couriers markup the prices to include there commissions/service charges and offer an already inflated wholesale price to these e-retailers online. To add to the 3rd party markup calculated on a base retail store price instead of a wholesale trading company price quote, most US based e-retailers must first ship the purchased units to the US for reconfigurations by English speaking technicians instead of utilizing gdrop shippingh cost advantages. This means doing reconfigurations in Japan and shipping them directly to US customers. After these 3rd party markups and shipping charges are calculated, these e-retailers then tack on their own sales commission calculated on overhead/operational expenses and profits. If you do a search on Google for any Japan-only product such as the new Sony Vaio U50 notebook, you will soon realize there are only a handful of e-retailers offering this notebook with retail prices ranging from $1,835 (Sonibee.com) to $2700 (Dynamism.com). I know what the wholesale prices are here in Japan and know what retailers in Japan pay. In your review you mention that the price range for the U50 is $2,200 to $2,700 but in actuality its more like $1,835 to $2700. This is almost a price discrepancy of $865.00!! As you go through each site and do a price comparison you will begin to see a huge discrepancy between various websites. One reason I have already mentioned above and the other is strictly because there are so very few retailers or International suppliers who sell these notebooks. For all countries excluding Asia, there are only a handful of e-retailers or suppliers of these Japan-only gadgets and notebook computers that handle sales outside of Asia. Itfs no wonder these e-commerce websites can get away with charging such exorbitant premiums since there is such high demand but very few suppliers. Why are there so very few retailers or suppliers for notebooks that are sure to sell well in other countries? There only a few ways in which a person or company can attain a notebook computer or high-end gadget here in Japan. Either they go to a regular store and purchase an item at retail, through a 3rd party supplier who has connections to trading company or through a trading company directly. The key point to acknowledge here is that you must be in Japan in order to purchase the high-tech item. Why? The marked up product in question, which in almost all cases is a Japan-only product, cannot be purchased by someone outside the Japan due to the warranty. Clearly stated on the packaging, selling a notebook that was only intended for the Japanese market is a clear violation of the warranty and as a result, it will no longer be valid. Japanese trading companies or retailers DO NOT want to be held responsible in case servicing is needed for International purchasers. That means as a retailer who has sold to someone outside Japan, they have to pay for the repairs if needed. Calling-in for an order or inquiring from overseas is absolutely pointless because they will refuse to sell. This and other difficulties finding connections in Japan has resulted in only a few e-retailers who sell Japan-only gadgets and notebook computers. Again, with only a few suppliers and very high demand, these e-retailers can get away with extremely high premiums and ov

Reminds me of when I last shopped for a PDA

[harikiri]

This was at the beginning of the year. I was looking at the top end, and what was locally available included:

• Sony Clie UX-50 (keyboard, wifi, camera, usb) $AUD 1299
• Sony Clie Clie PEGNX80VG (keyboard, camera) $AUD 999
• Palm Tungsten 3 (graffiti, bluetooth) $AUD 799

In short, I ended up going for the Palm for a few reasons. First off was price - Sony does not price their gear competitively. Their market appears to be the executives with fat expense accounts who see shiny new toys and go for them. I have a number of geek friends and none of them are big purchasers at Sony, with the sole exception being Sony's monitors.

Secondly, when it came to software - because Sony regularly releases high-end models with customised software, they don't seem to support them for too long.

So if I was somebody looking at the palmtop/tablet options out there, I would probably give this a miss. The spec's are nice, but it looks like something for someone who needs such functionality *today*, rather than waiting for equivalent devices to come to market in the next 6-12 months with a lower pricetag.

But like most Sony products, damn... it looks sweet! ;-)

Re:Reminds me of when I last shopped for a PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

It LOOKS acceptable. Does anyone else notice how much space the Intel and Windows stickers take up on a device this size? It makes me think of a PDA that a child with a sticker book got a hold of.
Is Sony required to put these labels on? Do they get a price break or something or is it a government mandated warning of hazardous ingredients?

Re:Reminds me of when I last shopped for a PDA

[iantri]

In short, I ended up going for the Palm for a few reasons. First off was price - Sony does not price their gear competitively. Their market appears to be the executives with fat expense accounts who see shiny new toys and go for them. I have a number of geek friends and none of them are big purchasers at Sony, with the sole exception being Sony's monitors.

That seems like an odd thing to say -- I was looking for a cheap colour palm and I found that Sony's Clie model had far more features and memory than the next nearest Palm model and was CAD$50 cheaper. Maybe Sony gear is more expensive in .au?

Re:Reminds me of when I last shopped for a PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

You were looking at cheap Palms, he was looking at high-end ones. Sony's a lot more competetively priced with Palms on the mid- to low-end. On the other hand, their high-end Clies are some of the most expensive PDAs I've seen, including Pocket PCs.

Yes, but will it run...

[md81544]

I'd LOVE to have a PC of this size. But it would have to have Linux on it... and Sony are just too proprietary with their hardware... my old Vaio PCG-C1V (Picturebook) runs Slackware just great... apart from the camera (I know Tridge has got some of these to work... doesn't work on my model) and the firewire port, which is a pain.

Re:Yes, but will it run...

[PerspexAvenger]

I've got Debian (Sid) on a C1VE atm - same camera problem (the sonypi module doesn't appear to pick it up somehow), but the firewire alleges to work with a stock 2.6.3+ kernel. Can't test it though, as I've never even held a firewire peripheral, let alone owned one...

Re:Yes, but will it run...

[wehe]

Just in case somebody will write a Linux installation report about this device, I would like to include a link into the Linux on Sony laptops and notebooks survey as well as into the Linux on TabletPCs and Pen PCs overview.

Re:Yes, but will it run...

[Lumpy]

I'd LOVE to have a PC of this size.

The funny part is that I HAD a pc that size back in 1991...

It was called a Dauphin DTR-1. It ran windows for workgroups 3.11 had the best handwriting recignition system I have EVER used and was all around cool.

Funny how Sony simply took that old idea and simply updated it with today's technology.

Re:Yes, but will it run...

[rcb1974]

I got all the C1VN hardware working under Gentoo linux including the camera. I'm running the 2.6.5 kernel and the camera works with Gnomemeeting and lots of other v4l software including transcode which allows me to make highly compressed videos.

The problem with anything from Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

...is it you want it to do something beyond what Sony envisioned for it at this moment in 2004.

Examples:
I can guarantee you that if you want to run Longhorn when it comes out, it won't do it. The drivers won't work and Sony will not update drivers for older products.

If it breaks after the warranty period, forget it. The replacement parts will cost more than the thing is worth.

It will have minor incompatibilities with standard software suites, sony tech support will deny it and then mysteriously 6 months later a patch will appear that will be unannounced, you'll have to hunt for it on the Sony site.

In short, when you buy a piece of Sony computer gear, buy it for what it does out of the box, forget about putting BSD or Linux on it (or even another version of windows), and if it breaks, throw it away.

Its just a mindset at sony, and it explains why people generally buy Sony computer gear exactly once.

Re:The problem with anything from Sony

[Blue_Wombat]

Yep, and when you will want a part or add-on for it you will discover that if it is available it is basically the same as the equivalent bits for other PC gear. However, the fifty generic options from the computer store won't work. In order to connect it you have exactly one option, which uses a special Sony connector, is only available from a Sony dealer, and mysteriously costs five times as much as anyone else's equivalent. Been there! Sony...BAH

Re:The problem with anything from Sony

[kraut]

Well, I'm on my second Sony laptop, and very happy with both. And both run SuSE linux nicely.

Re:The problem with anything from Sony

[swv3752]

If you check through the driver updates for any sony vaio model you will see that there are driver updates for any version of Windows that supports the minimum specifications on the machine. Now you need to foolw thier upgrade guidelines exactly. Mostly it means that Windows needs to be installed to c:/windows so no dual boots or installs to winnt.

Also, it is not the OEM's responsibility to get your third party software to work. I've worked in tech support and you get people calling you to support thier 5 year old printers or help them install MS Office, install drivers for thier new video card.

BTW, as for repairs, it depends. I had a Sony notebook break a year out of warranty. There was a key fell off the keyboard, the dvdrom was no longer reading dvds, and the hard was getting a smartdrive failure. The whole repair was $249 plus tax. Now, before this, I had checked and just the keyboard was $249 if I sent in the notebook. So the flate rate repair can be great or not dpending on therepairs needed. And as for parts for desktops, why wouldn't you use just standard desktop parts? Anything besides the mainboard (which is always expensive), is just off the shelf parts. And Vaio has those door flaps so you don't need to worry about aesthetics of beige clashing with purple.

I have also found that Sony uses standard chipsets. Sure the modems are winmodems, but then who doesn't use winmodems anymore? Everything else seems to work out of the box for Linux.

Re:The problem with anything from Sony

[gdad2]

That's not my experience. The Sony Z505HE I bought in 1999, that had Windows 98 when it arrived, today runs a dual boot of RedHat 7.3 and Windows XP. I upgraded the hard disk from 8 GB to 40 GB. And I upped the RAM by 50% to 192 MB. With an 802.11b card and the extended battery, (only now becoming affordable!) I can get four hours of battery life. It's been a reliable and fun little computer. I've used it for work, school and games. It doesn't quite have enough horsepower to play some of the more graphical games I enjoy, but otherwise I've been very pleased with it.

The best part was all the free resources I found on the Internet to help me. Someone somewhere posted a step-by-step tutorial for replacing the disk. It was simple to upgrade the memory. And the Linux installation was actually quite simple also. (I'm ashamed to say I'm a Linux newbie.) There's a site somewhere listing all the configuration steps required to tune Linux for the 505, most of which I didn't really need.

Expensive

[IrresponsibleUseOfFr]

I will never understand the "wow, that computer is cool, but soo expensive" mentalality. I paid about $3000 for a laptop about 5 years-ago. I was happy with that machine. This one is more powerful, has a better battery life, and is cheaper in terms of actual dollars than the laptop. Should I pissed off that I bought my laptop now?

If you want the vaio, and have the expendable income, buy it. Who cares if you can get a better desktop for a tenth of the cost. The most powerful computer in the world isn't worth the money if you aren't happy with it and don't use it.

Anything that you buy is worth the money if you are satisfied with it. I really hate to see the put-down mentality of some people that take otherwise happy customers and make them feel stupid or cheated for their purchase. Absolutely, no good comes from that. You discourage people from buying products they would enjoy. You hurt companies that produce something cool, which causes them to raise prices on their not-so-cool items. In the end, for what? Your ego? Get a grip.

Re:Expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of the reviewers is that the computer is not worth the money. That the benefits do not justify the cost. That the features are nice but the price is ridiculous. Whether you want to buy it anyway is up to you. Maybe for you the benefits outweigh the cost, or maybe you just like new technology, or, maybe you wipe your ass with hundred dollar bills.

It's like ordering a $1000 omelette. It might be the best tasting omelete in the world but most people are still not going to order one. The omelette is cool but the price is too expensive. Whether or not they have the expendable income to afford one is besides the point.

Why do you think that these people are attacking you? Because you bought something that wasn't worth the money and hate being reminded of it? If you really are happy with your purchase then these people should not bother you. You sound very insecure. Get a grip.

Re:Expensive

[IrresponsibleUseOfFr]

I really hate arguments that refer to "most people." Did you conduct a scientific survey? Take a poll? Hell, ask your friends? What gives you the authority to talk about the opinion of most people on any particular topic? Reviewers consider price/performance and comparable items on the market. The best they can do is give their opinion and justify their view with facts.

But what I hate to see is just blantant negativity towards certain products because it isn't the best value. Mac users are probably the most vilified on this account.

Markets work on optomism. Negativity poisons markets, and on large scales cause recessions and depressions. There is no good reason for this because it is solely a social phenomenon. For the most part, I believe things are good and getting better on every front.

My self-esteem has nothing to do with it. I hate seeing people participate in this bullying. Because, it does (however indirectly) affect my quality of life and produces nothing but dissatisfaction all around.

Re:Expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

Yours is the most blatant and irrational argument for wasteful, conspicuous consumption I have ever read.

Perhaps your self-esteem is not worth what you paid for it.

Re:Expensive

[Nakito]

Also, a cost-benefit ratio is not a static thing that applies the same to everyone. Rather, it is directly affected by where you are in your life -- your resources and your interests. If you've just graduated from school and have a mound of debt and an entry-level job, this product might indeed seem too extravagant. But if you're an established professional with disposable income, and this tool would make your life easier or more enjoyable, the ratio for you is different. That's why there is a market for the Kia as well as a market for the BMW. The people who say "it's too expensive" are really only saying, "it's too expensive for me." Calculate your own cost-benefit ratio, because it's the one that matters.

Re:Expensive

[10am-bedtime]

"markets work on optimism"

hmmm, that makes misunderstanding the currency, deceit the mint, and ignorance the fort that protects the system from crumbling.

that sounds like a crappy system, IMHO (and that's being optimistic). a pessimist would say "that system will fail" or such. all valid points of view, and easy to bandy about. viva slashdot.

Re:Expensive

[GoofyBoy]

>What gives you the authority to talk about the opinion of most people on any particular topic?

Thats the definition of what a reviewer is suppose to know.

What is the audience to the product? Suppose you had an amazing video card that sold for $10,000. Don't you think that is note worthy to mention it in a review?

>I hate to see is just blantant negativity towards certain products because it isn't the best value

The vast majority of people hate spending money on a piece of garbage. Is it blantant negativity to point it out? If it were free, then it wouldn't matter.

You bought a pair of jeans for say $100. Now suppose another pair costs $500. Don't you think that it is noteworthy? Do you buy $500 jeans?

>Negativity poisons markets, and on large scales cause recessions and depressions.

Unjustified extremes causes recessions and depression. Suppose I think that eBay stock is worth $5000 a share. Is the world "negative" in their view and poisoning the market?

Re:Expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the sibling posts, I'd like to comment on your ridiculous "markets work on optimism"
Markets work on information. Optimism and Pessimism are by definition deviations from neutral unbiased decision processes--- here's the kicker---- that means they're _bad_.
ie, "i'm sure Worldcom is an excellent partner to do business with, why should i doubt them, 'negativity poisons markets'"
or on the other end of the spectrum: "my money is better in the mattress, screw the stock market"

Of course, by being so paranoid and pessimistic about products, investments or oppurtunities (aren't these all the same?) you dont necessarily lose money, but you can lose money in the "coulda/shoulda" sense.

Don't come and tell everyone to be optimistic because you think you absorbed some knowledge on markets from the ameritrade commercial. If anything, a small amount of pessimism and doubt may add some inefficiency but will also cause more seller disclosure and better educated consumers.

On a side but related note, I wonder what the 'economics' or marketing knowledge of the /. user is. I come to slashdot because most of you know much more than I do about tech and I find the posts informative (sometimes, sometimes) but I often see rants about the bad business decisions and what companies should be correctly doing, often based on misconceptions of market theory and incorrect assumptions on the current state of the world.

Meg or Gig

[FosterSJC]

The units use DDR 266 RAM, and have one slot for memory. If you remove the battery, you'll see a door held in place by a phillips head screw for the tiny RAM module. 512 megs seems to be the max the unit can address, and both have a 20 meg 1.8" hard drive. These nifty drives aren't quite as fast as standard 2.5mm notebook hard drives, but they do use half the power. The drive has a 2 meg cache (the same as most notebook and basic desktop hard drives), a 4,200 RPM rotational speed and has an ATA-5 interface capable of 100MB/sec transfer rates.

I could be wrong, but I think he means 20 Gig hard drive.

Re:Meg or Gig

[BinLadenMyHero]

You could be wrong?!!

Of course you can't be wrong.
How could it run Windows XP in 20 MB?

Re:Meg or Gig

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you can't be wrong.
How could it run Windows XP in 20 MB?

Windows XP in Firmware? Bunch of possibilities that *could* be true, but yeah... it's gotta be gigs.

Re:Meg or Gig

[Emil Brink]

These nifty drives aren't quite as fast as standard 2.5mm notebook hard drives, but they do use half the power.

Also, I doubt that there are that many "2.5mm" hard drives to compare against. I'm not sure how tall a PC Card-form factor flash "hard drive" is, but then again I don't think the 1.8"ers consume more power than a solid state drive. Thus, I conclude it's good the reviewer doesn't work for NASA. ;-)

suweet (sorta)

[Suchetha]

its nice in a "ooh i'm shiny buy me" kind of way. if you DO have the cash to pay for it (usd2200 - USD2700) i may even be a nice toy. but i guess for most people all this would be is primarily an entertainment unit and a secondarily a pda.

as the article states

Don't expect this to be a desktop replacement, but do expect it to be more than adequate for MS Office, email and web browsing as well as video playback and light gaming. It's truly a portable movie player in addition to being a full Windows PC.

of course if you put a lower footprint version of windows (say 2k) on it, it may handle things better. i should also PROBABLY run linux

but for me i would personally prefer a larger laptop for half the price (and i tend to put things down and forget them) or better yet a PDA for PDA work/email and a good portable DVD/VCD/MP3/CD player for entertainment. a 5" screen is just too small for my shortsighted eyes

of course this may be a big hit in the gadget crazy japanese market. but at the risk of getting a LOT of flaming i will ask "but what use is it? especially at that price!"

i am sure i will get a lot of responses, but i still think that this is a solution looking for a problem

Suchetha

Re:suweet (sorta)

[NanoGator]

" am sure i will get a lot of responses, but i still think that this is a solution looking for a problem"

Eh? The popularity of PocketPC's and mobile computing, and this is a solution looking for a problem?

Anyone willing to shell out an extra 700$...

[Granos]

The price for these two items in Japan are currently 210,000 yen (1,900 USD) for the U70 and 178,500 yen (1,600 USD) for the U50.
I don't think price is a big concern for anyone willing to shell out an extra 700 bucks over the original retail price to get the latest toy from Japan, when there are so many comprarable products in the US that would be just as useful to 99.9% of the population. Stuff like this doesn't have to fill a particular niche, it just has to be new and unique enough to attract the attention of rich technophiles who crave the bleeding edge.

Re:Anyone willing to shell out an extra 700$...

[Bushcat]

Street price on the U50 is now down to 147,000 yen or around $1300. It's tempting, pop more RAM in and a 40GB 1.8" drive.

too expensive?

[glass_window]

>They like it, but it's too expensive.

That's funny, that was my opinion on *all* of their laptops.

ad 2004, 3d chipsets still rare? ..:(

[janbjurstrom]

I want a handheld computer that is also quick with 3d.

I'd really like to see competent graphic chipsets worth a damn become a standard feature in these devices.

Do I have to get a PSP? But I'd like to play around creating 3d apps of my own - do I need to get a Sony SDK license (at what cost)? This one, at $2800, still sports the (for 3d) underpowered 855GM chipset. Shared memory, no 3d hardware (or does it have?)...

Ok, with a 3d gfx card, the battery life might fall through the roof - but still... I'd feel like Superman without the cape with a hi-res screen like that, a fast CPU, but with abysmal overall 3d performance.

Re:ad 2004, 3d chipsets still rare? ..:(

[torpor]

Do I have to get a PSP?

Nope. Get a TapWave instead. Its available now, has 3D acceleration, doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and has an OS that is remarkably simple to write applications for ...

Re:ad 2004, 3d chipsets still rare? ..:(

[janbjurstrom]

Ah, yes - had a vague recollection some company had made a handheld w decent (hardware) 3d. Thanks for the pointer.

Re:ad 2004, 3d chipsets still rare? ..:(

[bhtooefr]

3D? I was under the impression that the ATI Imageon was only 2D. Also, even if it does 3D, I'm sure an i855GM could smoke it pretty badly.

What "and everything"?!

[SpaghettiPattern]

Lisa Gade provides the typically in-depth review, with pictures and words "and everything".

I bet more /.-ers out there are wondering about Lisa's "and everythings".

Help! My wallet's been VAIOlated!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony is known for sound, not for computing. Making a system have good speakers and calling it a "multimedia center" by giving it a good size monitor, tv card and DVD player doesn't make it special either. Even what Sony is know for, audio equipment, is usually solid quality but middle of the road performance for the masses not the audiophiles. Same goes for computers. Real computer nerds laugh at Sony computers the way Hells Angels Harley Riders laugh at yuppies on a souped up BMW bike. Sure it looks snazy and has bells and whistles but what you're really paying for is the name/label and not performance.

Re:Help! My wallet's been VAIOlated!

[Lurks]

That's just such nonsense, my God. Sony is a huge empire that stretches from virtually all facets of consumer electronics to dominating the games industry and market leading in televisions, notebook computers and others.

As I write this, they have the top five notebooks in the top ten notebook sales charts here. The TR series alone just hasn't been touched by anyone else in terms of specification and design.

Re:Help! My wallet's been VAIOlated!

[CymorC]

The only reason people think Harleys are any good is because that's what they've been told. With a Harley, you're paying for an underperforming, overpriced name that only means something to nonbikers. Go to any AMA motorcycle group and you'll see that real bikers overwhelmingly prefer Japanese and European bikes to Harleys.

Re:Help! My wallet's been VAIOlated!

[macserv]

While I agree about Harleys, Sony hardly falls into that category. They consistently innovate, and create products that are head-and-shoulders above anything else (neck-and-neck with Apple) in design and usability. They might not always have every feature known to man, but you have to sacrifice some user choice for good user experience.

Sony products are worth the price, especially if you take a short trip to pricegrabber or dealtime. If you disagree, don't buy them.

Let's not forget rich women

[wombatmobile]

These things will remain rich men's toys for the forseeable future.

Will rich women be allowed to buy them too? After all, they are a growing demographic.

Deja Vu

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought I recognized the submitters text from somewhere.

GNU/Linux or OpenBSD running on it ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to know if somebody made some test on the hardware included in the U50/U70 ? Is hardware compatible with free software or any proprietary hardware included ?

Hardware maker should make a small stample saying the hardware is known to work with free software... I don't why to buy a proprietary only harware...

Hopefully this niche will thrive

[copponex]

I'm not a big fan of the price, but this is heading in the right direction.

I hope in 3 to 5 years there are a lot of these palm or hip tops, because it's really where computers start becoming more of an assistant than pain in the ass. I'd like to grab breakfast while browsing the web, turn off the screen for mp3 playing, maybe turn it on again to check e-mail halfway to work or if I stop somewhere. Then when I get to work plug it into a dock for a full keyboard/mouse/display for the workday routine. I just want ALL of my data with me ALL the time.

In retail situations, bringing your pricelist in your pocket will be big business as soon as the price point goes down. With all of the new credit card verification stuff, I don't see why we won't be checked out as soon as we buy something. Just pick up the receipt on the way out the door.

It looks so 80's

[Qbertino]

I still have a Sharp PC 1403 Pocket Computer. The near same PC 1402 was my first computer ever. I wanted portable over games (as in the ever present C64 back then). I've still got the 1403 on my desk, doing little tax calculations in Basic, printable on this cool little cash register printer.
Anyway, it's got tons of special periferals and looks very much like this Sony thing with all the extra stuff and it's brushed brass/metal feeling.
But: The Sharp PC 1403 runs 130 hours on two button-cell watch batteries and probably something like a decade when powered by the printers 4 mignon cells. Still have to find a modern portable computer to beat that.

Until then I'll settle for my current 12" iBook, which beats all others in price/performance/usability ratio. Oh, and it's OS doesn't suck either. Can't say that about the U50, can we?

I absoultely don't need one

[CarrionBird]

Yet I must have it.

more comments and reviews here

[Anonymous Coward]

/lib/share/info/>

CF II Slot

[DrXym]

I wonder if this is a concession from Sony that their marginalised memory stick format is on its last legs.

Re:CF II Slot

[karnal]

Nah, it's probably just because they've not managed to squeeze a hard disc into a memory stick.

Just you wait!

$1000 (PC) + $300 (PDA) = $2199???

[jbarr]

While Sony is often known for pricier products, this really seems like an excellent form factor and feature set, but at over $2000, it seems very expensive.

When the price drops to the around the $1000 mark, they could sell a ton of these.

One very nice feature is...

[jbarr]

...its lack of an integrated camera. This means that it's "corporate-friendly", something Sony's UX-50 was not (and it's the ONLY reason I bought a Palm Tungsten T3 unstead of the UX-50.)

Boot time

[laetus]

My (2nd) biggest problem with this style device, (other than price), is the boot time. It takes the same time as a normal PC to boot up?

Not very convenient for an "on-the-go" device like this (and yes, I think laptops boot too slowly too).

Re:Boot time

[Dan Ost]

I would suspect that this type of device boots once and then never again,
instead hibernating when not in use. If my suspicions are correct, that would
mean that for all practical purposes, this type of device will be an
instant-on type of device, only rarely requiring actual reboots (largely
dependent on the stability of the software and hardware).

Re:Boot time

[CurbyKirby]

Boot time isn't an issue if you get the right laptop. One of the primary selling points about Apple laptops is the sleep mode. You close the lid and it falls asleep in under ten seconds. You open the lid and the login prompt is displayed in two seconds. In sleep mode, the battery loses under 10% over three days, so forgetting your laptop in sleep mode for weeks at a time won't make you lose state. This is all true for the 500MHz and 800MHz Apple laptops that I have used (i.e. you don't need top of the line hardware to get a speedy sleep mode).

Windows XP laptops that I have used take minutes to sleep and wake. The more memory you have, the more it dumps to the hard drive and hence the longer it takes. I haven't gotten any sort of Linux sleep functionality to work with my x86 laptop. I don't feel I should have to jump through hoops to get battery/power management to work on my portable device, but that's another rant.

What you say about the unit reviewed in the article is true if the system must do a full boot every time you cycle power. In general, boot time should not be an issue for any device. Portables should sleep to get through idle time. Apple has shown that boot time is irrelevant if you have an efficient sleep mode and a reasonably stable OS.

Linux and hardware support

[Black Perl]

Sharp do indeed make a good subnotebook, as do other vendors. I won't run Windows any more, and I'm *not sure* I could manage to successfully put Linux on one of these systems and have all the ports work properly and the graphics catered for correctly.

I found this out the hard way. My current laptop is an Averatec (3220H1). So far I've tried Suse 9.1 and FC2. I've had trouble getting all the hardware to work on it. So far I've had to settle for generic display drivers, no Wifi, and no USB flash drives (though this may have to do with the 2.6 kernel, not the hardware).

Linux was much a much smoother install on my previous machine, a Sony VAIO.

Re:Linux and hardware support

[bhtooefr]

SuSE 9.1? Tell me, how has SuSE improved since 8.2 when it comes to HW support? I remember 8.2 out-of-the-box was a BITCH to get working on SuSE.

And Fedora Core 2? The one that kills Windows? No thanks.

Why generic display drivers? It's an S3 UniChrome - AFAIK, it's usually well supported under Linux. The WiFi is Broadcom, could be better, but it can work.

The flash drive? Probably a 2.6 problem, but I've never had a problem with it on the experimental Mandrake 10 Community box at my school (except it didn't automount), and I KNOW it's running 2.6, because I made sure of it.

Maybe you should take a look at this, which is the 3225HS running Mandrake 9.2. The only difference is that it has 512MB RAM instead of 256.

The modem's going to be the hard part, but I don't expect ANYONE to get that working easily.

I'm considering the 3220H1, but I'm not going to run SuSE or FC2, that's for sure.

Re:Linux and hardware support

[Black Perl]

SuSE 9.1? Tell me, how has SuSE improved since 8.2 when it comes to HW support? I remember 8.2 out-of-the-box was a BITCH to get working on SuSE.

A co-worker is a big SuSE fan, and gave me a stack of 9.1 CDs right at the point where I was ready to install Linux on my laptop. It mis-detected my display and I had to reinstall, specifying generic VESA drivers to get it to work. The sound didn't work either, probably another misdetection. I like the look-and-feel of SuSE, and YaST is nice, but I was otherwise unimpressed.

And Fedora Core 2? The one that kills Windows? No thanks.

You're either exaggerating for effect, or were misinformed. There is a bug with 2.6 + grub (SuSE 9.1 and Mandrake 10 exhibit this problem too) where a resized Windows partition will no longer boot (but be otherwise intact). It only happens on some drive geometry/BIOS combinations, and only if you reduce the size of your Windows partition. You can easily fix this with a Windows install disk, or prevent it altogether by using Knoppix or a pre-2.6 distro (or even PartitionMagic, etc) to repartition your disk before installing. It's not a big deal.

Of all the distros I've tried, Fedora is my favorite so far. Then again, I mostly have experience using it as a server, not a desktop.

Why generic display drivers? It's an S3 UniChrome - AFAIK, it's usually well supported under Linux.

I noticed the unichrome project recently. I'll try the drivers there.

The WiFi is Broadcom, could be better, but it can work.

Yeah, some people have got it to work with NDISwrapper + the Windows drivers, though it seems more people have failed than succeeded. It seems that people who tried DriverLoader got it to work, but that's a commercial product.

The flash drive? Probably a 2.6 problem

Yes it is. SuSE 9.0 automatically mounts usb disks. In FC1 I got them to work. There's some conflict with ACPI and usb devices in kernel 2.6.

I'm considering the 3220H1, but I'm not going to run SuSE or FC2, that's for sure.

To each his own. I've never tried a debian-based distro, so that's next for me. Maybe I'll try Mandrake 10 if I'm not happy with Debian. I can always fall back to Fedora as a last resort, because I'm familiar with it and have been happy with it.

Re:Linux and hardware support

[bhtooefr]

I couldn't get Debian set up as a desktop on my old P233MMX. I got it running great as a web server, but X and LILO both decided to go nuts when I tried to set it up the other way. LILO didn't like my dual HDD config (I had installed an 8.4GB HDD, and put my home directory on the old 4.3GB, but when it was a web server, I just had the 4.3GB), and X wouldn't cooperate for multiple reasons (primarily my graphics card, I think - the old version of XFree didn't like the idea of a nVidia)

They just invented...

[Stumblingthunder]

A Newton 2000!

Now we know why the traditional PDA isn't leaving

[emorphien]

Well it is cool, and probably will be an interesting device to play with but it just doesn't fit.

It's too big to be a PDA, it's too expensive to be thrown in your pocket and carried with you anyway. It's also going to take too long to boot up as someone mentioned. One nice thing about Palm and Pocket PCs is that they're always on practically. Push the power button and you're good to go.

I haven't seen much need for a crossover device like this in the US either. Laptops are popular, and seem to work as a form factor. This thing may be smaller but it doesn't have the power a laptop does.

Link

[vasqzr]

Neat!

Dauphin Info

Specifications and information
Introduced:
Original Price:
CPU: Cyrix 486DRX2-50
Memory: 4MB RAM
Operating System: MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows 3.1 with Pen Extensions
Input/Output: Monochrome VGA LCD display; pen input with handwriting recognition; optional separate keyboard
Resolution: 640x480 grayscale
Bus: N/A
Other Items in Collection: Keyboard; carrying case; external 3.5" floppy disk drive; documentation; original box
Items Needed:

Weighing in at only 2 pounds, the DTR-1 was the original Windows-based palmtop pen computer, years before the advent of Windows CE.

It's the Sony Newton!

[argent]

Except it doesn't have a built-in stylus, doesn't have an OS designed for a PDA, and looks bloody awful... I'll pass.

Less expensive: Slashdot effects for a fine Zaurus

[D4C5CE]

Cheaper ones than the above and the OQO, which are also much more "linuxy" models, are discussed here and most possibly made available by everyone outside Japan mailing their interest to buy one (or more, but with wireless connectivity please ;-)) here now.

Cheap 12"

[Sunnan]

I was shopping around for a good 12" this winter, but couldn't find anything cheaper than the iBook. The X40, which I like, quickly rise in price as you add stuff (and it was a lot more expensive then than it is now).

I'm running Debian anyway so x86 vs ppc doesn't matter to me. I do like Apple hardware but dislike many of the company's policies.

plagiarism

[bbay]

Looks like LabRat007 is a plagiarist.

Sony VAIO U50 Reviewed to Death

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

At least, thats how I first read the headline. I understand that detail is important when giving a review, but often a reviewer feels so obligated to offer their opinion on the least important, inconsequential details that it drives me insane. I think SlashDot has taught me that only my opinion matters, and to never listen to anyone else's opinoin.

I like my Tablet because...

[srenker]

It was merely overpriced and has pretty good handwriting recognition.

If M$FT allowed people like Sony to be creative with the form factor and moved their software improvements to production sooner rather than later, they could solve a lot of their sales problems IMHO.

this is ...

[curator_thew]

Exactly the type of portable webpad I need:

(a) around the house, to look up stuff, browse the web, check movies, etc;

(b) at work, to pull up files and email during meetings, etc;

I would buy one today if it were a better price.

Also, I think that they could trim the specs and still have a marketable product: grunt power and number of ports are not important for this style of product.

what's with the keyboard?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's another shame for sony not to use a wireless keyboard.

Re:Meg or Gig or mm

[Anonymous Coward]

FosterSJC:
I could be wrong, but I think he means 20 Gig hard drive.

And how long has 2.5mm drives been a standard? I want a few of those for my Palm Tungsten!

Interesting, but...

[gillbates]

What I'd really like is something this small with a usable keyboard.

My dream machine is really a small, portable computer with keyboard attached:

• It should weigh less than 2 pounds.
• It should be small enough to fit in a large coat pocket, but not so small that the keyboard isn't usable.
• It should use a "standard" battery, such as AA.
• It should have about 10 hours of use on a single charge (NiCd rechargeables).
• I should be able to use store-bought alkaline batteries in cases of emergency (travelling, etc...)
• I'd want all of the standard ports - ethernet, usb, parallel, modem, etc.
• x86 architecture would be a plus (8088?)
• Should run Linux.
• Instant on. (Think calculator fast)
• 20+ GB hd.
• Color screen.
• Should cost less than half a new desktop.

Almost everything I've found lacks at least one of the above features. I don't want a screamingly-fast system - I want a usable one which I can take with me anywhere. I want something inconspicuous - no whirring fans or overheating the lap.

What I'm asking for could probably be designed and built by a competent EE major in a matter of days, but I unfortunately don't know any EE majors anymore.

Re:Interesting, but...

[bhtooefr]

1. OK, that's easy.
2. Look at some Sharp Zaurus PDAs.
3. OK, that's not too hard.
4. That was two pounds WITHOUT the ten batteries, right?
5. How many packs of batteries did you want, again?
6. Ethernet? Easy. USB? Easy. Parallel? WTF? Modem? WinModem, or real modem?
7. The 8088 can't handle what you want, and it's the 80188 that you're thinking of in this situation. The i80386EX is the LEAST processor you could use, and you could really use an ARM or something.
8. Follow my advice in 7, and ditch the modem, and you can have that.
9. Instant on? Sleep/resume, you mean? Otherwise, you will have at least a few seconds boot time.
10. 20+ GB HDD? You're pushing your power envelope...
11. Color screen? At least that one's pretty easy...
12. WHAT?!?!? A PDA with less than a QUARTER of that can cost as much as a new bottom of the line desktop!

Re:Interesting, but...

[bhtooefr]

HP 200LX - most of what you need.

It's small, uses AAs, gets long life, has a PCMCIA slot, has a 8MHz 80186, can run Minix (although it's a dirty hack that's fairly unstable), AFAIK it has instant on, it has a few megs of flash (that's the bad part), a 640x200 mono CGA screen, and is dirt cheap. It runs DOS natively, so you can run some stuff.

Argh.

[Fantastic Lad]

Why why WHY won't somebody build a decent portable computer.

Here's the three point reality:


1. I want to be able to read a document while taking a dump or while lying in bed. It has to be light and easy to hold, and the screen has to be at least twice the size of the standard PDA. 5"x2" will do the job, allowing you to actually see a whole paragraph at once! (whooo.)

2. I want to be able to touch-type into the thing with comfort and ease. Handwriting recognition is the single most limited, irritating and hence, unused technology in handhelds today. Thumb-only keyboards are useless to anybody who needs to write more than a sentence. I don't need the thing to fit in my pocket, because I'm not a space-man living in a Star Trek episode. Further, I don't need to instantly be able to access the thing on a whim, because I don't intend to keep my BRAIN on a PDA. I'll pull the device out of my BACKPACK or BRIEFCASE, or pick it up off the TABLE when I want to do some WORK or READING. --Neither of which are done while standing around the water cooler.

3. The power has to last at LEAST 30 hours on double A's or something else I can easily replace at a convenience store. I DO NOT want to mess around with idiotic recharge bays and proprietary batteries.

It should also be noted that. . .

I DO NOT NEED OR WANT a color screen. I do not need to watch movies or play games on my wallet. I DO, however, need to be able to type essays on a reliable machine. Until somebody can make a color screen which doesn't turn good batteries into worthless 5 hour charges, then just give me a Black & White LCD screen!

The closest I've seen anything come so far is the Psion series 5. I've written about this several times now in the last week, since I just became the proud owner of a used $75 ebay model. The machine is ALMOST perfect. The screen is just a little too shiny which makes it hard to read, and if the keyboard was only one inch wider and slightly more responsive, it'd be the perfect machine. WHY, OH WHY, DIDN'T THEY MAKE IT PERFECTLY???

I mean, it gives you 35 hours on a couple of AA's, an excellent word processor, fully programmable key-board and as many megs of memory as you can stuff on a Compact Flash card. Man, for 75$, that is one SWEET machine!

ONE inch wider, guys, and a non-reflective plastic on the screen, and you'd have created the perfect product.

-FL

Why would anyone want Win XP in a PDA?

[labourstart]

PDAs are things you boot up quickly, and shut off with the click of a switch. They're incredibly useful when you need to look up a detail while standing somewhere. The 'instant-on' feature is, I think, one of the strongest points of PDAs as opposed to laptops. So what's the point of making what is essentially a PDA with all its disadvantages (small screen, for example) without its main advantage of instant bootups?

900mhz

[ttroutma]

That's the biggest problem with these things a machine that slow is going to be a dog with XP anyway and have a very short lifespan. I've got a U1 and have had many other ultra small Sony PC's and you have to spend a lot of time ripping out all the crap like IE, Outlook, etc to get the performance up, and then if you insist on installing that beast Office, the overall performance takes a huge hit.

Thanks.

[gillbates]

Of course I know that there are tradeoffs in everything. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that we can run today's processors from batteries - when I got into electronics, a chip drawing 100 mA was considered a power hog. Today's CPU's draw what, 30 - 40 AMPS?! (~ 3V * 40A = 120W). Given that D-cell rechargeable NiCd's are about 300 mAH, they'd last about, oh, say, 30-40 seconds....

But sometimes its nice to push the envelope. I know x86 assembly; I don't need a 3.4 GHz processor for reasonable performance.

Re:Thanks.

[karnal]

"Given that D-cell rechargeable NiCd's are about 300 mAH, they'd last about, oh, say, 30-40 seconds...."

What??? ... I've been looking at rechargables lately (used to use all sorts when I was younger.) The highest capacity "D" size cell I have found is a 9Ah cell. They're a little pricey when you get up there in the Ah ratings (probably about 5-10$ a cell) but they're probably worth it.

Those were Ni-Mh cells, though. I've seen some cheaper 2Ah D cells, pretty much bottom of the line. Remember when Radio Shack used to sell their common "D" size rechargables, which were just C cells stuffed into bigger packaging?

Re:Thanks.

[gillbates]

Yes, I remember the Radio Shack NiCd's. I bought some, and that was the last time I bought rechargeables from RS. And, incidentally, that's where the 300mAH figure came from....

Re:Thanks.

[karnal]

Actually, I would place a bet that it was closer to 3000mAh, right? 300mah would be about right for a triple a nicad...

This is what I want!

[Bodhammer]

Take:

1 Newton 2000 for handwriting

1 Zaurus SL-C860 for display, keyboard, Linux

add

Ethernet, Bluetooth, and 802.11b (or g)

6 hrs battery life with replacable batteries

Support and a vendor supported dev. community

Stir Vigoriously, pour into a sub $600 package

Sell hundreds of thousands of units!!!

Prediction: Product without a market to fill

[illumin8]

My prediction is that these type of products will fail miserably. They are not useful as a PDA at all due to the fact that they run Windows XP. Read the following from the article:

Despite appearances, the Sony Vaio U50 and U70 are indeed Windows computers. They can run Windows software, and take as long to boot up or resume from standby as any notebook PC. So if you're looking for instant-on, quick access to data, and don't need to run Windows PC software on the device, consider notebook-like PDAs such as the Sharp Zaurus C860.

Can you imagine trying to get someone's contact info at a business meeting with one of these?

Let's see, open the lid, wait 5-10 seconds for Windows to wake up from standby mode.

If it's not booted, you're waiting 2-3 minutes to boot.

Now, enter your username and password to login to Windows.

Now, open Outlook by double-clicking it's icon.

Choose what folder you want the contact in (business/personal). Maybe you even have to establish a network connection to place the contact in a shared folder.

Now click "New Contact" and try to figure out a way to input their data without a keyboard!!! WTF, no keyboard for data input?!?!

Guess you'll be using Windows XP's on-screen keyboard to enter all their data, hunting and pecking with your stylus or fingers on the little tiny on-screen QWERTY keyboard. Better go to Start|Programs|Accessories|Accessibility|On-Screen Keyboard. 5 clicks later and you can actually type!

Type in contact name and phone number painfully slow while hunting and pecking on the on-screen keyboard.

Click save.

By this time you've probably wasted 5-10 minutes of your business associate's time and he's already handed you a business card or written his info down on a piece of paper and handed it to you. Not to mention he thinks you're a total wanker for using technology that just doesn't fit the purpose.

Compare all this with my Palm enabled Treo phone?

Open the flip.

Click the "New" button.

Type in their name and phone number and hit "Done."

Total time on the Palm enabled phone? 30 seconds or so.

So basically, this is just a smaller than average laptop. I still have to carry around a PDA, cellphone, and every other device I always had to carry. These devices might be popular in Japan where there is a demand for very tiny portable computers, but here in the US they will fail miserably.

It seems like they're trying to capture a small percentage of the already tiny PDA market, by marketing a device that doesn't even function as a PDA... Fucking brilliant. Someone ought to knock those Sony and OQO executives that greenlighted these products upside the head with a clue-by-four.

Actually, I require 75% discount for Sony

[MickLinux]

As I remember, Sony has been involved in a number of shady "target the customer" problems, all mentioned here on slashdot. [For example, weren't they one of the groups that made the break-his-Ibook CDs with the damaged track, so that the CD couldn't be used in a computer?]

So right there, I'd require a 50% discount to do business with Sony.

But then, they also have the lock-in architecture of the Sony memory stick. So you can't go back to another competitor later. Therefore, I'd require another 50% discount.

I need these discounts, because there is a very real cost to doing business with a slimebag, even with a big name slimebag company.

In other words, the Sony product needs to be about 25% of the price of a no-name competitor before I'll seriously consider their product.

Sony Vaio the best? No, I don't think so. I'll wait.

WHY IS THE U50 SO EXPENSIVE WHEN ITS NOT??

[taseckob]

As an industry veteran with 8 years experience working at a major trading company for these high-end tech products in Japan, I just want to inform US consumers as to why the prices are so inflated and the huge price discrepancy amongst e-retailers. Its not Sony, Toshiba or Panasonic that is overpricing products, itfs the e-retailers and companies that export these items into the US or around the world that are guilty of overpricing these high-tech gadgets. The reason why?One reason is many of the e-retailers for these Japan-only products donft actually have physical office locations in Japan and depend on local Japanese third-party buyers/couriers to purchase these items at either a retail store or an outlet mall. Once purchased at RETAIL PRCIES, these 3rd party buyers or couriers markup the prices to include there commissions/service charges and offer an already inflated wholesale price to these e-retailers online. To add to the 3rd party markup calculated on a base retail store price instead of a wholesale trading company price quote, most US based e-retailers must first ship the purchased units to the US for reconfigurations by English speaking technicians instead of utilizing drop shipping cost advantages. This means doing reconfigurations in Japan and shipping them directly to US customers. After these 3rd party markups and shipping charges are calculated, these e-retailers then tack on their own sales commission calculated on overhead/operational expenses and profits. If you do a search on Google for any Japan-only product such as the new Sony Vaio U50 notebook, you will soon realize there are only a handful of e-retailers offering this notebook with retail prices ranging from $1,835 (Sonibee.com) to $2700 (Dynamism.com). I know what the wholesale prices are here in Japan and know what retailers in Japan pay. In your review you mention that the price range for the U50 is $2,200 to $2,700 but in actuality its more like $1,835 to $2700. This is almost a price discrepancy of $865.00!! As you go through each site and do a price comparison you will begin to see a huge discrepancy between various websites. One reason I have already mentioned above and the other is strictly because there are so very few retailers or International suppliers who sell these notebooks. For all countries excluding Asia, there are only a handful of e-retailers or suppliers of these Japan-only gadgets and notebook computers that handle sales outside of Asia. Itfs no wonder these e-commerce websites can get away with charging such exorbitant premiums since there is such high demand but very few suppliers. Why are there so very few retailers or suppliers for notebooks that are sure to sell well in other countries? There only a few ways in which a person or company can attain a notebook computer or high-end gadget here in Japan. Either they go to a regular store and purchase an item at retail, through a 3rd party supplier who has connections to trading company or through a trading company directly. The key point to acknowledge here is that you must be in Japan in order to purchase the high-tech item. Why? The marked up product in question, which in almost all cases is a Japan-only product, cannot be purchased by someone outside the Japan due to the warranty. Clearly stated on the packaging, selling a notebook that was only intended for the Japanese market is a clear violation of the warranty and as a result, it will no longer be valid. Japanese trading companies or retailers DO NOT want to be held responsible in case servicing is needed for International purchasers. That means as a retailer who has sold to someone outside Japan, they have to pay for the repairs if needed. Calling-in for an order or inquiring from overseas is absolutely pointless because they will refuse to sell. This and other difficulties finding connections in Japan has resulted in only a few e-retailers who sell Japan-only gadgets and notebook computers. Again, with only a few suppliers and very high demand, these e-retailers can get away with extremely high premiums and overp

Re:Prediction: Product without a market to fill

[Anonymous Coward]

Errr ... I think your example was a little silly actually ... imho ...

I agree that the retailers have way overpriced it for what it is ...

BUT ... Smartphone + U50 = my dream come true. The amount of times I've been restricted by the limited power of a PDA and Smartphone ...

Anyway, use the smartphone to capture the data, then synch with the U50, and then later use the u50 to access ALL your data, not some weedy PDA conversion ...

Maybe I'm in a minority, but there are some people who do more than what a PDA can achieve.

Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!

[Moqawama]

Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!

The American pigs do not know what awaits them very soon. We will make their cities burn like they burnt al-Fallujah! America will soon forget 11 September when they see what is in store for them in the coming months!

Be warned, America! You have desecrated our lands and killed ten thousand of our brothers! We will make you pay with ten million of yours!

Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!
Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!
Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!