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GameCube Coders Caught Out By Gigantic Memory Card
Thanks to GamerFeed for its news story discussing compatibility problems with some GameCube titles and the new Nintendo Memory Card 1019. The news story explains: "The [official Nintendo-produced] card has 17 times the memory capacity of the original Memory Card 59", and describes issues, some due to the card's four-digit block size, with a number of more minor third-party games, including Sonic Adventure 2 Battle ("If there are more than 999 free blocks on the Memory Card 1019, the game cannot display the amount of free blocks"), WTA Tour Tennis ("The game does not recognize the Memory Card 1019 properly, and should not be used"), and, disastrously problematic for many memory cards, Mary-Kate And Ashley: Sweet 16 ("Graphics sometimes will not display properly if a file is loaded and restarted after quitting the game.")
Damn, well, there goes my sale.
I don't have any of those shitty games.
(*#&$#(*&#!
I knew I should have gotten the PS2 instead.
If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
OK, at first glance of the list of incompatible games, the only one that even strikes me as worth playing is Sonic 2, and that's just a minor glitch (copy/move all your other game files to the 1019 and you'll have no problem, especially if you have an Animal Crossing game going). Darkened Skye was just plain terrible (played it on PC for about five minutes before realizing it was a thinly-veiled advertisement for Skittles candy, I kid you not), and I'll spare my criticism of the MK&A game simply because it's been done to death.
It looks to me that Nintendo did something very very smart when they initially set up the design of the memory card system, ie allowing it to be any arbitrary size (as opposed to the old PS1 cards which were 15 blocks, take it or leave it), and these are just poorly-coded games (SA2 included, though it pains me to admit). It's not that big of a deal in the long run, but of note if you happen to have the games mentioned.
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
What I'm wondering is this: who's fault is this? Is this incompatability the fault of Nintendo or the game coders?
I don't know the mechanics of the memory card, but here we just have the same memory card, but with more memory. So I can't think that the problem arises from Nintendo's side, unless the card requires something else different because of the increased memory.
It looks like it could be the fault of the game coders. Given, they really couldn't test the 1019 card, but I would think that proper programming would have prevented the problem with Sonic Adventure 2.
On a side note, if you RTA, you'll see that, according to the article, the Mary Kate and Ashley game (as well as NHL Hitz 20-03) have compatibility issues with the 59 and 251 Memory Cards, so these are nothing new.
Good thing I won't be buying those two games when I finally get my own Gamecube. [grumble]
Or good coding by making things as small and compact as possible to fit more on the disk?
Personally if this had been 20 years ago, I could understnad where the problem came from..... but it being 2004 and these DVD holding a good chunk of space that the code for bigger mem cards would hardly be more than a few lines, if at that, I highly doubt those games use, I am banking toward the bad coding idea.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Considering third-party-made memorycards of that capacity have been available for quite some time now it should have been possible to catch these errors even before the official 1019 was announced. The games listed aren't exactly the best exammples of good coding, though.
Also, the claim that the MC1019 could hold hundreds of saves isn't entirely correct, either, since according to the Gamecube's manual a card cannot hold more than 127 files regardless of its size.
Besides, the Mary Kate and Ashley game's flaw isn't caused by the MC1019, the article states it happens with ALL memory cards, i.e. the game's load function is flawed.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
It's about time, Nintendo. I've had my InterAct memory card for a long time now with 16x the memory of the original Nintendo card. Never had a problem with any game, and its been a godsend on saving those damn huge Madden season files.
to post the predictable Mary Kate and Ashley Olson joke... ...
damn, can't think of anything.
I've not worked on GameCube, but all the console manufacturers have huge checklists covering memory card use, naming conventions, screen use, demo lengths and all kinds of miscellaneous details. All games must meet these requirements before they are approved for publishing. It sounds like Nintendo hadn't specified an upper limit or that capacity could increase in the future, and definitely weren't checking titles for behavior with larger capacity memory cards.
Console hardware is generally predictable, so what works today will work tomorrow. If this large memory card was part of Nintendo's road plan from the beginning, it should have been clearly documented and tested from day 1, even if the consumer hardware is not yet available. If the documentation states that the largest capacity was memory card 251 and developers work to those specs, then this is more Nintendo's fault. If the only limit on larger capacity cards was cost, then Nintendo should be stating the maximum capacity handled by the hardware and testing to that limit instead.
You'll be waiting a long time. Execs at Nintendo have stated that the day Nintendo stops making console hardware is the day they go out of business.
For as much as I've read, programming for Nintendo is notoriously easy. The PS2 is the bitch to code for.
An ATI video card and a PPC processer is considered proprietary? If anything Sony's setup is more proprietary then the GC.
By the way, why would Nintendo need to quit makine consoles and concentrate on the portable market when they already dominate it.
I've heard that as well. From my understanding, the Xbox is the easiest to code for, followed closely by GameCube. The PS2 is supposed to be a real pain. I'm really curious to see how things turn out with the PS3 - my understanding is that it's supposed to have around 16 processors.
My blog
It seems the last Console posting said that PS2 was the ruler of the consoles, but then the one before that said that PC games are going to beat out consoles for patching, the one before that was about how consoles beat out PCs because they have a standard set of hardware so the software can be optimized.
Back to a related topic.
I honestly do not know anyone that owns a gamecube. Most people I know have PS2 systems or nothing at all.
Now onto the actual topic.
Why would Nintendo introduce a new memory card this late in the game? When something has had a consistent hardware configuration, of course the developers are going to take advantage of patterns (small memory cards) and shortcut some robust coding (not being able to handle any memory card) to shorten development time, reduce test time, and save money. This should have been expected by Nintendo when they introduced the larger memory cards.
I'd be willing to bet if a real 16MB (or larger) memory card came out for the PS2 (not those fake 16MB cards that are actually a 8MB card that requires you to put a real 8 MB card in it to get to 16MB) there would be save issues as well. Heck the PS1 games I have freak out that the PS1 memory card is not in slot 1 (there was only 1 slot on the PS1) and will refuse to boot unless you move the card.
This is Nintendo's fault. They should have tested this new card with a number of games, old and new BEFORE they released it to the marketplace. Nintendo should be working on either a workaround to trick games into seeing a smaller card or a full solution that allows it to be seamless to all games.
You can lose something that is loose, so tighten the loose item so you don't lose it.
You must be thinking of the Playstation 2, which is widely considered the hardest console to code for since the Sega Saturn. Indeed, one of the things developers like about the Gamecube is that it's relatively easy to code for (thanks in large part to its PowerPC processor). Also, I have my doubts that Nintendo will give any of the ground it has unless they become massively unprofitable. And since Nintendo's had only one unprofitable quarter in over 20 years, that could be quite a while.
Nope. They've stated that the day they stop making console hardware is the day they get out of the video game business, not the day they go out of business. I don't foresee this happening any time in the future, regardless of whatever the rest of the industry is doing.
Nintendo, in its various forms, predates the creation of computers capable of running video games by about 80 or so years. If the impossible happened, and video games just magically stopped being a part of what Nintendo does, they could easily turn themselves into a general entertainment & toy congolomerate, a la Bandai.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Where on earth did you see a PS1 that only had one memory card slot? Every model of the Playstation, from the SCPH-1000 (original model with AV connectors on the back) to the PSOne, has had two memory card slots. There's one above each controller port.
Now, there are certain games that insist on the card being in slot 1, but that's a coding issue not a hardware issue.
59 blocks should be enough for everyone!
Why not fork?
I honestly do not know anyone that owns a gamecube. Most people I know have PS2 systems or nothing at all.
And therefore, we can extrapolate that Nintendo has not sold a single game cube! Or that any units they have sold are merely "statistical noise".
Seriously, who cares that you and your buds don't have a GC? I know lots of people, myself included. It hasn't sold as well as PS2, but it has some great exclusive titles. IMO GC and Xbox are both MUCH better systems, games-wise. Without the PS1 (and arrangements to get FFs and GTAs first) the PS2 would be in the obscurity it deserves.
Why would Nintendo introduce a new memory card this late in the game?
I dunno, I thought it was kind of odd how low capacity their initial offering was. They may have been trying to game the system a bit, which is kind of irritating.
This is Nintendo's fault. They should have tested this new card with a number of games, old and new BEFORE they released it to the marketplace. Nintendo should be working on either a workaround to trick games into seeing a smaller card or a full solution that allows it to be seamless to all games.
Frankly, no it isn't, just like Y2K wasn't the fault of the holy roman empire or whoever set up the calender. Assuming they published a spec, Nintendo isn't obliged to complexify w/ special case issues and add expense to what is probably a pretty straightforward memory device just because a few game writers have a lack of foresight.
You can always still use the old smaller card in the other slot.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Also, All-Star Baseball 2004 has a block requirement of 240 blocks to hold data for franchise mode. If you save options and cards then you easily shoot over the 251 block cards just for this one game.
Chances are, if you own any of the games on the list, you already own one of the two earlier cards. And since all these tiles aren't any good, the real question is, why did you invest your money into such garbage? :)
As for the reasons why we might need a larger card... I'm guessing the reason Nintendo is releasing a larger memory card is so that developers can create games that take advantage of a larger save space. I've heard that some developers have felt the 59 and 251 are too limiting.
the cosmos in 20 words or less: thumbuki.com
Heh, yeah, I was gonna write exactly what you wrote there, but you already wrote it, so this post is completely useless.
On the subject of the original poster's (and his friends') failure to own a Gamecube, why on earth don't you own a Gamecube?! With the exception of Riddick on the X-Box, the GC is all my roommate and I play anymore, and between us we own fourteen different videogame systems.
--
M
Someone needs to bring up the bigger issue here. Why is this MC just barely coming out now? At launch in the US there was only the MC 59. This retails for $20. A while later they released the MC 251 for $25. Now they have the MC 1019 for $30. 17 times the storage for only $10 more? Noone else sees this as problematic? The PS2 has had an official 8MB card since launch. The Xbox has had that size as well AND included a HD in the first place.
The ones who got screwed here? Nintendo's early adopters. How do they get away with this? I don't see how anyone in good conscience can defend this behavior. This isn't 1989 when they might have to invent a bigger cart just to ship a new game. The technology has clearly been available, they just chose to screw with their biggest fans knowing they would get away with it.
Well I'm sure this will get modded down fast, even though once again its only facts. At least try to dispute this before you wield those mod points.
This is Nintendo's fault. They should have tested this new card with a number of games, old and new BEFORE they released it to the marketplace. Nintendo should be working on either a workaround to trick games into seeing a smaller card or a full solution that allows it to be seamless to all games.
Come on, LOOK at the list! It's not like those games are primary candidates for testing new hardware. I mean, if they were to test it with every game on the system they'd have a few hundreds to go through. Very likely they simply took their own games or maybe the top sellers on the system (probably 90% their own games...) and tested the cards against them, who can blame them for forgetting a few mediocre-to-extremely-bad third-party games that were ported from other systems, anyway?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
With that out of the way, I'll be civil about the remainder of your points.
Because, for some gamers, it's useful. I don't play sports games, but (for example) Madden uses a huge amount of memory for saved game data.
Actually, the onus lies with the developers to follow Nintendo's spec. And I think it's a safe bet to assume that (A) the spec (or a source or even binary implementation) was furnished to developers and (B) the memory card 1019 follows that spec (otherwise, there would be more problems with more titles from more developers).
Notice that the list isn't longer, or even long. Also note the nature of the titles: one early GameCube effort from Sega (an enhanced Dreamcast port, for that matter), a few kid's sports games, a low-budget tennis game, a hockey game, a Skittles ad, and an Olsen twins game. None of them (except possibly the Sega game) hardly scream "lengthy QA process" to me.
Again, it would depend on whether the card and developers were both following spec.
As addressed by another poster already, there are two memory slots on PS hardware. The only reason you're seeing that slot 1 error on your PS2 is because the game required the memory card to be in slot 1 on the PS as well.
You assume that they didn't. Rather, I'd say that if they did test with a selection of games, these games were not part of that selection. Looking at the suckitude of the listed titles (save the Sonic game), I can't say that I blame them.
Like what?
If you're talking about paging, official Dreamcast 4x VMS cards used paging and STILL had issues. Unofficial third-party Playstation memory cards have traditionally had problems, not excepting the ones that used paging.
If you're talking about compression, it's had a bad history. Unofficial third-party Playstation and Saturn memory cards that use compression are very prone to corruption. Better to compress on the hardware before saving than try to include on-card logic to handle it.
Bottom line is, if this were an architectural mistake on Nintendo's behalf, a lot more games would be having problems. As it stands, going from the provided list, everything points to developer errors. You said it yourself, "I'd be willing to bet if a real 16MB...memory card came out for the PS2...there would be save issues as well." And somehow I doubt you'd be posting the nonsense you just did if such a thing were to happen.
Also a case of shoddy programming. Most gamecube games asume that you have 1 memory card, on port A. And I'm not talking about obscure, third party, bad games. I'm talking about Metroid Prime, Mario Kart, WindWaker, Mario Sunshine, the Zelda collector disc, etc. If you have more than 1 memory card, you either:
-arrange your save files to minimize the hassle of swapping cards
or
-swap cards.
Games that I know recognize more than 1 memory card (or the fact that the memory card is on the port B) are Burnout 2, Capcom vs SNK 2 and Animal Crossing (the only first party games that it does!)
While they make awesome games, Nintendo has a shoddy programmer in charge of save/load games, that hasn't considered every case.
Somehow I dont think the extra 20 blocks was worth the trouble...
Obviously I'm sticking with my GB/SP and looking at the DS when it comes out.
Almost agree'd.
With my ~30 games (although I've never played the 60-block Sims, and don't intend to), I'm using about 265. As it is, I have one 59 (which sucks, being third party), and two 251s, so I'll last for a while yet. Especially if I do some spring cleaning, I'm not likely ever to play games like Spider-man, Clone Wars or Rayman 3 again.
"I honestly do not know anyone that owns a gamecube. Most people I know have PS2 systems or nothing at all."
This is called the Pauline Kael syndrome. "Nobody I know voted for Nixon, so how could McGovern have lost?"
Circumcision is child abuse.
In Soviet Russia, Mary-Kate and Ashley lust after YOU!
Circumcision is child abuse.
This problem is similar to the Y2K issue. The coder's simply used 3 digits to store how many blocks were available on the memory card. When you have a card with 1000+ blocks, overflows start happening.
I don't know where the GC Linux team got this info, but if they can find it then developers should have access to is. About a quarter of the way down this page (Section 9.7 Memory Cards) is a list of memory cards including the 8MB Memory Card 1019 and others like the MC 507 and the MC 2043 which don't currently exist. Developers should have at least allowed for 4 digits for block size to be compatible with these psuedo-announced peripherals.
I'm a Nintendo advocate so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.
There are 1GB flash cards available but I don't think that just because the technology exists that Nintendo should use it. It would simply be cost prohibitive.
Granted these "new" MC 1019 cards are 8MB which is the same as both the PS2 and Xbox standard cards, 8MB goes a lot farther on the GC. Why? Simply because developers should be used to not having scads of save RAM to use.
There are other reasons of course. The PS2 MC interface has at least one 3D model associated with each game. This model (and it's associated textures and other data) can be animated to even perform secondary animations when the save file is deleted. Talk about your waste of space. I seem to remember "Ridge Racer V" using close to 600k of space which would be bigger than an entire Nintendo MC 59 simply to store configuration data and high scores. Contrast this to several GC games ("Metroid Prime" being a fine example) that use 1 block to store 3 save files. I don't even want to talk about the Xbox "bloat saves" that can't even be copied to a memory card.
FYI, 1 block is 8kB just like the original 15 block PlayStation memory cards. Sony's list price is still $20 for those. Should we all scream foul?
Yes, Nintendo makes money off of memory cards and if you would've brought up the "incompatible" SD Card adapter then you would've had a point. But really, when the prices drop, and they soon will as when the MC 251 came out, it just means that customers will be getting more RAM for their buck. Is this really a bad thing?
Yup, Animal Crossing is such a game, and I stupidly started playing with the included memory card 59.
Bite the hand.
Doomstalk, try 40 years. Nintendo went public about 40 years ago (actually, I think it's been 39.5 years, now). Only one unprofitable quarter out of about 160. Not bad, I'd say.
The coder's simply used 3 digits to store how many blocks were available on the memory card. When you have a card with 1000+ blocks, overflows start happening.
Are GCN games coded in COBOL? Last I checked most recent languages used these things called "bits" to represent something called "binary numbers", which apparently don't have a 1-1 mapping from digit to digit when converting to decimal. I would hope they've moved past the idea of using characters to represent decimal digits in numbers...
Although, I will say you're partially correct. It looks like some of the problems are display issues only and will otherwise work fine, assuming a game's artificial upper bound is not hit (ex: mem_local 99).
More frustrating to me is the incredble variation from one game to the next on the required save blocks. Some games use 30, some 11 some as few as 3 blocks. Viewtiful Joe only requires 4 blocks, yet games like Medal of Honor use 11. Medal of Honor cannot be that much save intensive than Viewtiful Joe, can it?
Oh thats right... I own an Xbox.
Take that bitches with your $20-$30 pieces of plastic!
Nintendo also plans an SD card adapter for the GC and, again, has been clear about this from the beginning. If something breaks on that one are you going to blame Nintendo again?
And considering that you are speaking out of your ass when it comes to the memory card slots for the PSone, I have to assume one thing: You have no damn clue about the topic we are discussing. Return to lurking under your bridge.
And thanks for the link to the SD card adapter - I didn't know it had finally come out (well, okay, out in Japan).
I'd like to point out your pro-Nintendo spin here. I don't think you even realize what you are writing.
You dismiss Ridge Racer for having a large save. You call Xbox saves "bloat saves" because a few do not fit on a memory card. The flip side of this is that because of Nintendo's decision to severely limit the size of their MC, there are titles thay cannot ever possibly be released on Gamecube. Here is where you spout the standard apologist line of "well we don't want that game anyway". Thats cute, but more games is better. Nintendo's choices created this problem. A bigger save file allows more options to be saved. Having more spaces allows games to offer more customization. Nintendo's choices took that away from you. And YOU blame Microsoft and Sony for empowering developers with enough storage. (What a suprise, I see R: Racing Evolution from Namco has been released on Xbox and PS2, but not yet Gamecube, I wonder what the holdup is.)
I didn't get into 3rd-party hardware because I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm only demonstrating the choices Nintendo made and how they affected you. To rival the space on a Sony or MS memory card, you would need 17 MC 59's. But that only works if you want to save 17 different games. You should be insulted, but you are not. That makes me smile.
I'll leave you with this. Animal Crossing had to come with its own MC because the game takes one whole card. I'll round down to 50 blocks to allow for overhead, so thats 400kb. Is that bloat too? Or is that standard only applied to non-Nintendo games? Imagine what the game could have been if the MC 1019 was available at that time. Nintendo's choices...
Once again, all facts.
troll troll troll your boat, gently down the stream...
"I'd like to point out your pro-Nintendo spin here. I don't think you even realize what you are writing."
Well, one good turn deserves the attempt at another. People have been pointing out your anti-Nintendo, anti-Japanese, pro-Nokia, pro-Microsoft spin for several months now.
Sounds fair.
"You dismiss Ridge Racer for having a large save. You call Xbox saves "bloat saves" because a few do not fit on a memory card. The flip side of this is that because of Nintendo's decision to severely limit the size of their MC, there are titles thay cannot ever possibly be released on Gamecube."
?
Is this not something that is alleviated by the Memory Card 1019, about which you're preaching quite a bit today? The Memory Card 1019 is no smaller than the competitor's cards.
"Here is where you spout the standard apologist line of "well we don't want that game anyway"."
The straw man sure is your friend, isn't he?
"Thats cute, but more games is better. Nintendo's choices created this problem. A bigger save file allows more options to be saved. Having more spaces allows games to offer more customization. Nintendo's choices took that away from you. And YOU blame Microsoft and Sony for empowering developers with enough storage. (What a suprise, I see R: Racing Evolution from Namco has been released on Xbox and PS2, but not yet Gamecube, I wonder what the holdup is.)"
R: Racing Evolution is available on the GameCube. It was a simultaneous launch.
At least be right about the things you troll about. Shit, man!
"I didn't get into 3rd-party hardware because I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm only demonstrating the choices Nintendo made and how they affected you. To rival the space on a Sony or MS memory card, you would need 17 MC 59's. But that only works if you want to save 17 different games. You should be insulted, but you are not. That makes me smile."
More of McDick's self-entertainment. "He's manipulating everything! Things are going well in his own mind! OH NO!"
"I'll leave you with this. Animal Crossing had to come with its own MC because the game takes one whole card. I'll round down to 50 blocks to allow for overhead, so thats 400kb. Is that bloat too? Or is that standard only applied to non-Nintendo games? Imagine what the game could have been if the MC 1019 was available at that time. Nintendo's choices..."
The nature of the game requires a save file of that size. It's far from the bloat in SOME PS2 game saves that have animated display icons in the form of 3D models, regardless of game type.
"Once again, all facts."
You must have bought your dictionary at a 98 cents store, because you are full of anything but what we sound-minded people know as "facts."
Ah, the disconnected quote post. Its right up there with invoking the Nazi's when it comes to the internet.
I'd waste my time responding, but you didn't actually add any new information, and most of what you used to "dispute" me was false. For example, Gamespy does not list a ship date for R: Racing Evolution, nor does Ebgames.com list it for sale, though I can buy both new and used copies for the Xbox and PS2. I could still be wrong, but evidence says I'm right.
Now once again, I point out to the editors that my detractors do nothing but spread falsehoods and confuse the casual reader. Unless you are an editor, which I am becoming increasing suspicious that you are, and if you are you should be doubly ashamed of yourself, you should ban this IP from posting anonymously.
Well to be fair, if you take a look at some of the memory usage for PS2 games, you most of them have some serious memory usage differences. RPGs? You're fine, maybe 20-100 KBs each. But sports games? Some sports games take half the memory card! God forbid you're hardcore and you ALWAYS save and keep your memory data from older versions of football, basketball, and soccer games. A moment of silence for those who play multiple seasons at a time as well.
As for the Xbox... well I think its safe to safe MS wasn't exactly thinking short term when they settled on 8 gigs.
I recently had to contact THQ regarding a glitch in one of their games on the GameCube. Their first question was "are you using a 3rd party memory card", which suggests not all cards are the same (ignoring size).
Oddly enough we eventually pinned the problem down to the Wavebird (official wireless controller), it frequently seems to be the cause of unexpected behaviour.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
Holy shit! An unreleased game (according to Mike) on GameRankings?
Good thing it isn't on Amazon, either, Mike. Or on GameStop.com, Mike. Or Toys R Us' website.
Good thing you only check EBGames.com, Mike... Otherwise you might actually have some facts to back up your claim.
Or, are these sites not worthy of your checking to make sure your foot doesn't end up in your mouth the moment you open it? "If it isn't on EBGames.com it doesn't exist!!!!"
Try playing Madden 2004. It uses up my 251 in one gulp :(
I was distraught when I realised my Mary Kate and Ashley Sweete 16 game did not work on my memory card, fortunatly, being a 20 year old IT guru I was able to download an emulator for my PC. Now I can Mary Kate and Ashley in style. (If anyone finds a way to transfer games to PC I would love to know)
I couldn't think of a sig.
"I don't even want to talk about the Xbox "bloat saves" that can't even be copied to a memory card."
I have a wide selection of Xbox games. Only one of my saves cannot fit on a memory card, and that one is from a Morrowind game that got waaay out of control. Even this save is only around 600 blocks. The 8MB memory card is 531 IIRC.
Name a Xbox game that regularly saves larger than 8MB. Even the save I mentioned above is only that large due to the huge amount of junk I've collected in game (I'm a pack rat for Daedric and Glass gear).
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!
Ten million Americans will pay for what was done to ten thousand of our brothers in Iraq! We remember al-Fallujah! We remember our mujaheddin in Afghanistan! We know how the Americans support the slaughter of our brothers in Palestine! Soon they will experience a dozen 11 Septembers!
Death to the Americans! Death to the Zionists! Death to any who think they can destroy or enslave us!
Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!
Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!
Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!