Slashdot Mirror
Recent Grads and Experience Beyond the Desktop?
over_exposed asks: "I'm a recent college grad (B.S. in C.S.) and have been on the job hunt for about 6 months. I've been playing around with tech toys as long as I can remember, but it all focuses around the desktop environment. Desktop-grade routers, switches and wireless as well as any/all desktop PC (and some Mac) hardware is what I could get my hands on with my limited budget. After looking through hundreds if not thousands of job postings, everyone is looking for 3+ years of network admin experience or 5+ years of C++ experience even for an entry level position. How is one expected to gain that kind of experience when no one will hire you without the experience? What kind of (part-time) work can you get as a college student to gain experience (Cisco, Exchange, SQL, etc) that will be marketable in the real world? Any suggestions from the Slashdot community will be of great benefit to myself and thousands of others who will enter the 'real world' in the next few years."
What kind of (part-time) work can you get as a college student to gain experience
Aside from simply applying for such positions, I would suggest you attend a Linux User's Group in your area. Along with expanding your knowlege and skills, a LUG connects you with relationships that might be helpful in finding part-time work. You'll also get a better feel for the local job market.
Sigs cause cancer.
The best way to do it is an internship. The best way to get a job is NETWORK, NETWORK, and NETWORK. All the jobs I've gotten has always been through someone I knew, who knew someone. So work your friends, friend of friends, and socialize more. Best advice.
Best Community for Gaming and Gadgets!
Internships are a great way to get practical work experience while you're still in school. They look great on a resume, and they can also be an excellent venue for you to get practical work experience after you get your degree. The theory being, you're already a known quantity to them and so they'd be much more willing to bring you on full-time after school.
Lie...
What could possibly go wrong?
I've taught myself quite a bit working with my own Linux server, writing web pages and databases for my music and pictures using PHP/MySQL, and playing with new technology. If you create something you can show a prospective employer, not only are you gaining experience but it goes a long way towards showing you're a self-starter and eager to learn.
12:50 - press return.
You will never get the job you want right after you leave University, you need to look for lower-position that do not require experience and then get your self moved up internally.
Once you get promoted you can then use that as leverage for external promotion. Remember all promotion is essentially internal in one way or another, it just seems like it is external because people change jobs so often.
I think it is time we all faced the facts. The times when one could walk out of University with nothing more than a shiny new diploma and into a well paying job are gone. They probably aren't comming back. I particularily don't understand this mentality in CS when there are so many ways to get involved. Open Source software is more than a great way to use great software for free, it is also a great way to get your name out there. Attach it to some projects, big or small and actually contribute. No it isnt regular office experiance, but it is coding, and will seperate you from the rest of your classmates who have dont nothing more than school projects. Pick any project you use, phpBB, Apache, PHP, *nuke, whatever and get involved and get noticed. Even helping out with documentation shows some initive, and can help you stand out from the crowd.
paul reinheimer
Get a crappy help desk job and work your way up. Or do phone support. Or be a telemarketer for a computer company if that's all you can get.
You need to work to succeed. No one is going to hand you an IT job based on certifications or college. Well, they might, but you'll be working for an idiot, and probably not for long.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Buy some good books and keep yourself studying and learning. At least you'll be able to tell a potential employee that you've studied the theory and are eager to get experience even if you don't already have any.
When I went to some "back of the kitchen" job fair, I met a Fedex recruiter there. Obviously, they were looking for someone who would be happy spending the next twenty years delivering potential terrorist packages, but I was there looking for a job programming.
Turns out that Fedex only hires within its ranks. So there is essentially no way to get into the Fedex programming core without spending a year delivering packages. After that year, you would be free to transfer to a group that more naturally fit your skills.
Now back to your problem. What exactly, have you looked at? Software Developer postions? Well, no shit, it's fucking hard, asshole. There are a million of us, and a billion of you-unlearned, untrained, unskilled, greenthumbs who think they know what's what but couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. Frankly, it's no wonder you didn't get a job. There's simply too many skilled engineers who are unemployed to waste any spare minutes on someone straight out of school.
My advice is to join ANY company and see where it takes you. Hell, even McD's needs engineers. Who do you think writes the software to calculate "hamburger+softdrink=happymeal"?
There are a million positions wide open and just because you closed your eyes to them doesn't mean they don't exist. Go out and get them, you budding programmer.
I have been pwned because my
Basically, people are looking for someone with the confidence to say they have five years experience and be able to show you that they can do what they were trained to do.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
Seriously. Many of those requirements are written by people who have no idea what they're talking about. Now, in many companies, your resume will just get thrown out because you don't match some HR monkey's checklist -- but with luck, at a few places, your resume will get to someone with some technical knowledge who is willing to at least give you a chance in an interview.
I mean, apply everywhere. Any job you think you might possibly be able to do. If you get one nibble for every hundred resumes -- well, these days, in the post-.bomb world, that's not bad.
Also, I don't know if you're still eligible for this since you've graduated, but most schools' CS departments do have lists of available interniships. The money usually isn't great, but it's real experience, and can lead to a full-time position. (Mine did, though I didn't get it through the school.) They may have some formal job placement services for grads, too.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
You're looking for an internship. Preferably paid.
Lots of companies have internships available because it's a good way for them to get cheap labor that will do grunt work and for the intern to get their foot in the door. After so much time if they like you they hire you.
Find a company you want to work for and call them up and ask if they have internships availablable. These are the kinds of jobs that college students are expected to take as a way to get started in their career.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
My answer was, I took a job with a smaller company where they understood my position but gave me responsibility and room to grow. Of course.. less salary, but it is a good starting position. I once met the "first CIO" in the United States, Duwayne Peterson - his advice was simply to "get your foot in the door" somewhere!
Good luck to you! -6d
helping you (and "thousands of others") out with advice is, in my opinion, just as bad
Your attitude displays an astonishing lack of maturity--if you are good at your job, you will want mentor others and pass along your knowledge and skills.
If you are weak, perhaps that explains your concern about being replaced?
Sigs cause cancer.
You should either be a GOD in CS with a PhD or too many impressive qualifications to find a 'good job' in CS these days.
If you have only minimum quals, you might end up as a sysadmin somewhere for a small network.
If you're not a GOD, and want a good job, then try not to be a pure CS guy. Take up a minor that you like while you're still in school and try to think about how your CS skills can be used in that minor. Eg Civil engineering needs lot of programmers who know some civil engineering. There is a surfiet of programmers in the market who know nothing other than programming lanugages.
If you lost your job today, don't despair. You may die tomorrow anyway.
Work on open source projects as if it were a job. It shows initiative and you learn far more than you ever could in school about software engineering and design. Of course, realize that your code is going to speak for itself, so you might not want to do a sloppy job. ;)
Register with your local temp or employment agencies and take whatever they have.
Once you're in the door start looking around for positions inside the company you're working at.
You're in, you can prove that you have the ability and not just the shiny new piece of paper that says you sat through 4 years of classes which probably taught you nothing that you didn't already know, and then you can see about moving up in the world.
When I graduated from college, there was no way I'd get a job in my particular field. Competition was on the lines of one opening for every 40-50 applicants, and if I had to put in the effort it would've taken to land that job, it would've made my life suck completely. So I did something else. I kept working at a bicycle shop and was fortunate to get enough of a raise to keep going... and earlier this year I got a career started with a distributor. Result? I make a bit less money than I would otherwise, but weekends piss me off because I like being at work so much. I've got an IRA, good health/dental/vision, and I pay about a third to half of what folks on the street do for bike parts, which makes me grin. Expand your horizons a bit, maybe make a hobby into a career - it worked for me!
Oh, and everyone else will say this, but most of the jobs I've gotten (from ice cream scooper at Baskin' Robbins to the current one), it wasn't what I knew but who I knew. The right references, and the right person speaking up for you when someone mentions an opening, make all the difference. If you aren't outgoing, then at least be pleasant towards those around you whenever possible.
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
One bit of good advice I've heard is to look at companies that aren't focused on what you're doing. Every graduate with a CS degree is going to apply to work at IBM and Microsoft, but other industries need software too! Send your resume to companies that specialize in automobiles, food service, medical equipment, aerospace...you name it, they'll probably need software.
Visit the
I can really empathize with you. I'm about to finish my undergrad, and I've been having trouble finding a full-time job. I've worked part-time in a netadmin position for several years, but whenever I call or email an employer, they want someone with 2-3+ years experience in a full-time job. It's such a pain.
However, I suspect the way I got this job will end up being the same way I get my next one. I started in this position six years ago. I was in high school at the time. I did some tech work for one of my teachers, and he knew the person running the network here, and hooked me up. Networking is the key. It's not even a bad idea to pass up internship-style jobs. In those jobs, you'll get an incredible amount of experience, though pay is a bit lower than you might like.
Being qualified is equally as important as being known, but being known is what gets you a job. So, while you're waiting for a good job, do some work for people you know. Install cable modems and DSL service. Run antivirus scans. Do small little jobs like that. If you do some work for a small business owner, you might take a look at the systems they're running and say "ya know, I can write an application for you that will do that better." Give them some details, and quote them a price. If you impress them enough, they'll take you up on your offer. You'll find, after a while, that the people you help will say "Wow, you're really bright and talented. I should introduce you to some people." Then they'll point you in the direction of a job.
And in the meantime, you can charge them $30-60 an hour for your regular tech work, even more for your programming work (if you don't just hammer out a contract for the whole job), and have enough money to pay the bills.
The best thing you can do as a student to make yourself more appealing to potential employers is to take a part time job or paid internship as a student.
I interned at a software company for three years during college, which I believe put me on a completely different level than my peers who had no work experience - even though many of them had better grades
You mentioned "Cisco, Exchange, SQL, etc", IT type jobs are the ones getting washed out by grads. If you are serious about becoming a developer, you need to get experience - try making significant contributions to an open source project or going to grad school and landing some sort of internship like I just mentioned.
Around here there are tons of companies that hire CS students, many times with the hope of grooming them into a full time employee.
I'm currently hiring about a dozen high level network security engineers. One of the biggest headaches I've had to deal with in the last month has been people who think "resume true" is what I care about.
.. take this guy's advice if you want to. But don't end up on my doorstep.
When I schedule a technical interview for a candidate, and they arrive, and two minutes into the interview session I realize that this candidate has never done half of the items on their resume (heck, some haven't even bothered to read their resume) I do three things.
1) I end the interview abruptly, inform the candidate that I'm sorry for wasting his time, and send them packing.
2) I throw out every resume I received from whatever source provided me with that resume, call that head-hunter, and let them know that they wasted my time, and the time of my team members who I pulled in for the interview. I not-so-politely let them know that they are black-listed from my group and that I really would appreciate them never contacting me again.
3) I let the other managers I work with in the international, 200k employee company I am part of know both the name of the recruiter and the name of the lying applicant so that they won't be bothered wasting their time in the near future either.
So
For real advice I'd do the following -- by your junior year, find a part-time job someplace doing anything related to your field. Work your ass off, get good grades, apply for a fellowship or research position and get it. Find local contractors who do short-term and part-time work for large companies. Get on a team and get some experience. It really doesn't matter what you do -- make connections with people of influence in your field. Those connections will be your lifeline to meaningful positions as you advance.
Yes thats right. How else do you expect me to learn photoshop. I have over 6 years experience in it which I never would have gotten without pirating it. Spare me your gimp stories because photoshop!=GIMP. I also have a great knowledge in MSSQL server and I would setup servers at home and play around with them, buy books and create replication sets and fool around with advanced things. I would setup active directory domains on my pirated windows 2000 server box so I could learn it. And you know what, I dont feel one bit ashamed of what I did because I cannot afford these software peices just to learn them. And one day I will be able to actually pay for them with my knowledge of using the programs themselves. Sure I could have gone the open source route but hey I am a windows person , Linux is not for me so dont try arguing with me that I should have been using Linux. Without ever pirating any software I would be left with no knowledge of MSSQL, PHotoshop, Visual Studio, Microsoft Office, 2000 Server, dreamweaver, flash and so on. I have been able to dabble with programs , learn them and then I decided if I liked them or not, and no a 30 day trial is not long enough because no one can always spend every day playing with the program. It would be nice if the 30 day trial actually counted down 30 days worth of program usage. Everytime I opened it , it would begin a timer.
It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem. The real problem, though, is that for a few years in the late 90's companies were handing out eggs left and right to everyone they could. When the floor fell out in the early 2000's, everyone got laid off, including people with 10+ years of experience with very specific technologies that are in demand now. What this means is that those people will be hired back first as the market recovers and, if there are any jobs left, you'll have a chance at that time. Find what work you can, keep your skills up, and keep applying for jobs.
I and many of my colleagues had predicted the storm would pass by the end of 2003. It's still here, and I'm revising my prediction: without knowing the right people (of which there are few), an entry-level programmer will not be able to get a job that matters (i.e., gives him experience that is at all pertinent to his dream job) until 2010 or later.
Seems to me that most people don't start as developers, they start as testers or call center reps, and work their way up internally. That's if you're going for larger companies. If you want to get into smaller companies or consulting, it's all about networking.
Lie. Corporate America is all about lying; how it's done, when it's done, and whom to lie to.
Or just twist the facts a little. Doctor your resume. Cook your C.V. Overstate your importance.
Or work on Free Software projects and list them all in your resume.
-Jem
Yep, I can't find the article now, but I read that most job openings are filled by referrals from existing employees. You might be able to find openings online or in the paper, but they will give you a tougher interview process. A recommendation from a friend on the inside will get you a step ahead of the other random applicants.
--
11 Gmail invitations availiable
How is one expected to gain that kind of experience when no one will hire you without the experience?
Because companies don't want to hire people unless they absolutely have to. HR departments are in the business of disqualifying people, not hiring people.
Most of it is due to middle management's inability to understand the concept of hiring entry-level employees and then teaching them the business so they can become valuable members of the company.
Entry-level means:
NO EXPERIENCE.
ZIP.
ZILCH.
NADA.
NULL SET.
ZERO.
NONE.
SPELL IT:
N-O-N-E.
Advertising for an entry-level employee with five years experience is an exercise in flagrant cynicism. It is part of an overall goal of making the workplace a joyless shithole.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
But then you'd take my job.
Ha, I wish - I'd welcome the help - it seems impossible to find quality unix admins who know linux well - usually we get some joker in here who plasters his resume with buzzwords, but in reality never uses anything but windows - we quickly find out he's a phony and show him the door. There are some real linux savvy folks out there, but they are hard to find among all the posers...
The army's always recruiting, and if you join the Royal Signals (or whatever your local army calls 'em) you'll get plenty of training and experience in IT and Comms.
Obviously you know nothing of the job market for those in the lower 90% of wage earners in the USA.
For those that fall into this category it is a cut-throat world, your boss only values you as far as he can't hire someone else to do the same job you do cheaper, and there's hundreds of people knocking on the door every day trying to take your place. It's exactly what the super rich and corporations of the USA want, a two tier class system with them on top, and us on the bottom as serfs to the US system.
Not that it's likely to be any better anywhere else in the world, but you have Ronald Regan and his union breaker mentality and social brainwashing to thank for that.
If you're not in that top 10% of wage earners then you'll learn first hand what I'm talking about one day.
(sorry to have to break it to you)
Don't expect to necessarily complete your degree and walk straight into an interesting role.
After I graduated, I got a job as a "Remote support consultant" at a software house. I got it because I had UNIX experience (I knew a bit about it, but nothing significant) and showed an interest in learning new things.
That role enabled me to learn lots more about UNIX and then get involved in Cisco, Citrix and other tech that you only typically find in business.
Five years later I'm one of the senior techies and I get to play with all the new interesting things. My general rule of thumb, is that new people are generally only useful after about a year. It takes that long to learn the systems we use. If they show a particular interest in learning, I'll teach them as much as I can. It's the only way to grow decent techies.
Starting at the helpdesk is an excellent starting point, degree or not, because it give you a wide subject knowledge (I'm not referring to call center-type helpdesks). If you're good, you'll be noticed.
- Hobbyist experience. Have you done projects on your own for fun? That you can show me? I want to hire people who are resourceful and who love their work.
- Attention to detail. You wouldn't believe how many people have poor formatting or spelling errors in their cv's. If you don't take the trouble to proofread your own cv, it doesn't make me feel warm inside that you're going to carefully check all those boundary conditions and return codes in the code you write for me.
- Good attitude. New grads have actually said to me that they don't see themselves programming for long, and that they see themselves as more management material. Ejector seat. Not all of work is fun, and everyone has to pitch in on the tedious jobs like testing, backups, maintenance. No prima donnas please.
- Good communication skills. It truly disappoints me how many people look great on paper, but after an interview you realize that they simply aren't going to be able to work in a team setting.
The job market is tough. The good news is, it's not that hard to stand out.I'll be the technology coordinator for a school district this coming fall. Now, I know there's a bunch of people out there who are gonna say "Those who don't know, teach." And they can just piss off. I'll tell you, the last tech coordinator I knew personally taught at my high school for four years and is now pursuing a doctorate while being the head of the technology development team at Indiana State University.
First, let me tell you: you need to be professional. That means cordial, exchanging pleasantries whenever possible, writing letters, as well as actually calling the human resources department personel and introducing yourself, if not in person. Believe it or not, professionalism will get you a lot further into acquiring a job then just sending out apps and waiting for something to happen.
Second, you gotta start somewhere. Example: banks always need IT support staff, but more often than not they hire internally. Start off as a bank teller. Sure, for a Comp. Sci. college grad it doesn't sound like a lot of money, but the perks are nice and it leaves plenty of room for growth. From experience, companies that have high demands for entry-level programming positions do so because it is easy to filter the qualified from the "they say that they're qualified, but...". It's simply because a company is not going to waste precious hiring-time to see if you can do the kind of work they demand if you've never done that kind of work before.
Or, try for tech support. Again, the pay ain't great, but every TS company has an IT support staff, and at the few I've applied to in the past couple years, all only hire for that internally, because they want someone who knows their systems and demands rather than some joe with an A+ cert. off the street.
Finally, even accept something lower. I did merchandinsing for CocaCola for a couple years, and they hired a lot of staff internally, including their IT support staff (well, if they did not find internally, they looked elsewhere, but the company knew that a lot of their workers are soon-to-be college grads who are looking for more qualified work, and it saves the company a lot of money not to have to advertise the position).
I suppose to sum everything up: climb the ladder. It's not fun, and you have to lower your expectations to start out with, but if you're as qualified as you say you are (and professional, I can't stress that enough), you'll get what you're looking for eventually.
Charity organizations or non-profits are always in need of people but don't have the funds. Volunteer as many hours a week you can offering your computer skills for free. Many of these organizations have in house networks that need occasional work.
If you are highly recommended by one of these organizations after a year or two of volunteering, you can bet that puts you up the ladder of resumes. It doesn't mean you worked 8 hours a day every day fo the week. While not working there, work wherever you can to make ends meet.
The father of my freshman year roommate was a professor at the University I went to. He was a mathmatician and he had written a C program to do mathmatical modeling. My roommate told me he was looking for someome to make some modifications to the program. I worked on modifying the program to run under both UNIX and windows. I got some good experience from it, and I was able to help the professor. I also got paid some for the work, so it worked out pretty well for everyone.
If I hadn't ended up traveling the China to study abroad, the professor was also planning to give me a system admin job for the department he managed.
The main thing is to keep your eyes open and talk to people. Talk to some professors you know and like, ask them if they could hire you to do some work (paid work looks better than volunteer on a resume I think, because it shows that the work you were doing was really valuable to someone.) Or if they don't have the money or need, ask them if any of their coworkers do. Don't just ask the comp. sci. department either, talk to all of your professors.
If no one you know needs help, go talk to your schools job search assistance center. They can help you look for something on campus that will help you fill out your resume before you graduate.
And of course, look for something that you will like, that is really important. If you are interested in the work, you will do better work, and then when your first post-graduation employer calls for a reference you will be remembered as a happy active employee.
--David
This isn't anything new. I went from college to the "real world" about 2 1/2 yrs ago and the same problems were around. I even saw a job posting once asking for 7+ yrs of Win2k experience. ;)
My best suggestion is just keep trying. I eventually found a great job that has given me a chance even though I didn't have the "real world" experience. Make sure you read up and learn about these technologies though. There's nothing better than being able to know a technology without ever having used it. Also, take some certifications. they never hurt.
And I can't stress this enough. I did it, most of us have done it. It's a pain in the a$$ but it still looks good on a resume. Help Desks! Hey..you can even move up once you prove yourself.
There are times, like now, when the market is lean. I remember when I was 17, being unable to get a job at McDonalds, Taco Bell or any number of super markets due to insufficient experience. It so happened that all the jobs in entry positions were taken where I was. Merely being an honor student with club activities didn't demonstrate much. Perseverance paid off, and I finally found a job that taught me a variety of skills-- namely cooking, cleaning and running the register.
When the market is lean, you don't find the job you want, you find one that will let you dabble in what you like. Maybe you find a mom and pop or a startup that needs something you can do, but don't want to, and also needs something you want to do, but can't afford to pay someone full time to do. In three years, you'll have that part-time experience in the real world, which is better than someone fresh out of college with only what you had three years ago. Of course, if the economy picks up, or otherwise you find a good job before then, you've been able to pay the rent.
Networking also helps, be it through user groups or church or maybe your old college professors. Often a relationship that involves trust, demonstrating how dependable you are, one that prompts conversations that end with, "...[s]he really pulled me through that tough spot" can get you some interviews your resume wouldn't.
Out of more than a dozen tech jobs I've held, I only ever got ONE though job listings, and that was because I was living in a backwater place at the time and the company had few applicants. All the rest were by knowing someone at the company (directly or indirectly). You don't necessarily have to know them well; a casual acquaintance is enough to get your foot in the door.
The companies DON'T CARE whether you can find a job or not. There are too many IT people on the market, so they can afford to only hire people with a lot of experience even for an entry level position. They believe (correctly or not) that if they get someone with less experience it will cost them more money.
If you really want to stick with this career path, you need to find a company through friends, friends of friends, etc., that needs someone, possibly part time or as a consultant, and almost certainly for substandard pay. Work up from there.
You're one hell of a vindictive bastard, aren't you?
Bet you're REEEAL fun to work with.
-Nano.
One thing I found out is that your degree counts as years experience. If you are applying for a job in the field that you studied in, it counts as at least 3 years! However, if you were an engineering major, and wanted to go into the world of finance, you would have 0 years experience. In my situation, I majored in finance and after graduation was told i had 3 years experience. Start putting that on your resume! GOOD LUCK!
The real problem here is new grads are competiting against other grads, others with years of experience (and software to show for it) and connections, and the low costs of overseas. Basically, the job situation is the same as before the dot com.
This person has to do two things:
- Aquire connections; this can be done at lugs, contract shops, moving to a new place, simply spend more time on-line
- Produce software. Others need to know what a person can do and how they do it. If they are innovative, then they get picked up.
I would suggest that this person do both be doing some OSS work. They will meet others as well as have code to show for it.I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Blowjobs.
If you need some experience in this area prior to graduating from college, join a frat.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Turns out that Fedex only hires within its ranks. So there is essentially no way to get into the Fedex programming core without spending a year delivering packages. After that year, you would be free to transfer to a group that more naturally fit your skills.
HP was (and I still believe is) like this. I started out as a process operator making parts for printers. After two years and some college I applied for a new position as a database/software tech within HP and was hired. Soon after that I was offered a programming position with a different company (networking with friends of friends) and left HP entirely.
Don't expect to land in a high-paying dream job unless you are in the top 0.1%, have a masters degree, and there are empolyers banging your door down to hire you, as was the case with my brother. (lucky bastard!)
Be sure to show the applicant the resume you have, and see if they agree with it. I went on an onterview, 10 minutes into the guy is asking me questions about things I didn't know. I asked to see the copy of my resume the agency sent him, it had all kinds of things I had never put in my resume.
I politely informed him that the agency had doctored my resume, and then gave hime a copy of my actual resume. He called the headhunter. They exchange some pleasentris such as: "I can't believe your wasting my time" and, my favorite "I'll never use your agency, and I'm calling all the people you sent me and tell the about this!"
my point is, be sure it was the the person and not the agency. If the agency lied, then it's hardly the applicants fault.
Finally, are you hiring?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
NETWORK, NETWORK, and NETWORK
This is easily said, but not easily done for many people. Imagine a person rowing up to New York City in a grass boat from a primitive island-nation having never seen such a city before. It is reasonable for me to say "Yeah, you just get on the subway, go to XYZ street, take a cab to QRS square, don't look homeless people in the eye, stay out of suspicous alleyways, etc." and actually expect that person to make it?!?
The people who are good at networking typically got that way over the course of their entire lifetimes, and the people who are not good at it have an uphill battle ahead of them.
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
Use alumni contacts to get internships and be willing to intern through college. If you are on mom and dad's health insurance and they put a roof over you, you don't need much money. Use this time wisely.
My company has four interns right now. They get paid peanuts but they do real work. They get to be lead developer on their own small projects with me looking over their shoulder.
To ensure I wasn't exploiting them, I asked each to come up with a list of what they want to learn this summer, and in exchange, they make me money. We do monthly formal reviews of their experience make sure everyone benefits. I feel that screwing knowledge workers is a bad proposition in the long run.
That said, I take mentoring seriously. Not everyone does.
The last one isn't really relevant, but it's amusing
I'm curious as to why you politely dismiss the applicant then trashing his chances at future employment at your company, and then unleash the beasts of the apocalypse upon the headhunter as well. I've known a few headhunters in my time, and even the ones that specialize in placing techies are pretty easy to deceive regarding qualifications. Then there are recruiters who are desperate for a commission and willingly shove any warm body in front of an interviewer.
I guess what I'm asking is, given that you don't know whether the blame should be on the applicant for lying to the recruiter about her qualifications, or the recruiter for lying to the applicant about her chances for getting the job, is it really fair to just bring the hammer down on both of them?
Regarding your practice of spreading the word throughout the company, you make it sound more effective than it probably is. First, many applicants are looking for a job in a certain area, not with a certain company. So it doesn't matter if your company has fifty people or fifty thousand, if your company only employs fifty people in that location. Second, your mentioning of the applicant to other managers is likely a far cry from a true company-wide ban. It all depends on how many other managers actually keep track of your list.
So from an applicant's perspective, you're not doing much to shut him out of a location because you're just one of many potential employers. Nor are you shutting him out of the company if getting employed there is his goal, because he can apply for positions in other locations. It might be an effective weapon against headhunters, though.
I don't begrudge you your attitude towards those who don't respect the value of your time, or who would apply for a job they know they're unqualified for. But if I were willing to lie my way into an interview, I don't think your warning would do much to dissuade me from the strategy.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
To all those of you who have yet to go to college or are still in it, let this guy's mistakes be your guide. If you do not work (for a real company, doing real work associated with your desired job placement), you will have EXTREME DIFFICULTY getting a job later on. Really, the only way to avoid the Catch-22 associated with getting your foot in the door is to work during school. School is only a part of your education. Do not be one of the people who thinks it's the only part. You will regret it. Fortunately, I took my own advice, and when I graduate, I will actually be able to honestly say I have 5+ years experience with stuff most small time network admins only dream of touching (Cisco 12000, Cisco 6500, Cisco 6000, etc.).
Now, it's not easy to find the right place to work. You need somewhere that's going to be willing to let you learn AND give you responsibility. I started off the summer before freshman year of high school working for a company doing fairly simple database stuff. That quickly progressed into a demanding database programming and design position from which I was able to gain much experience and client contacts I have used as references. That job morphed into networking, implementing things in very specific ways where there was a lot of on the job learning. I spent a solid four years there doing all of this. By the time I left there, my resume was so long that when I applied for another job, my age was actually questioned due to the wide variety of skills mentioned on my resume. And no, they didn't think I was lying on my resume, as they questioned me about the things on it and hired me.
Moral of the story: Work, work, work. It's just as, if not more, important as your formal school education.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
With an attitude like that, you'll probably be fired before you can train a replacement.
In today's tech environment, IT managers and sysadmins don't usually have the time to supervise every project themselves. The more people collaborate and network within an IT department, the more seamlessly services are integrated. Keeping knowlege close to your chest is one of the things that really turns me off about some IT managers.
The education field is usually a good place to look for initial work, especially at the college you graduated from. College IT departments are constantly growing as colleges and expectations grow too. At the very least, look for part-time work with your school, and if that fails, get some independant projects going. The age of one-man software development isn't over. One of my professors created the popular game Snood, and he makes about 15K a month from it. Teaching is what he does to fill his spare time.
How did you manage to attend 4 years of college and not have any practical experience? You should have interned in your career field each summer. Part-time jobs evening/weekends.
.NET programming, Java programming?
Companies are always looking for help these days that is cost effective to clean up problems. Most of our light weight web work has been done by students and interns.
If you cannot answer any of the following questions with a yes and preferably with how they apply to the job, I HAVE ZERO INTEREST IN YOU.
Did you consider working at CompUSA, an ISP, etc. during the summers/holidays?
Are you the "go to" guy for your friends, neighbors and relatives for computer problems?
What have you done to further your education beyond the rest of the crowd with a CS degree?
Have you built some example web sites or programs/systems for your porfolio?
Have you contributed to any open source projects? Linux, Apache, FreeBSD, etc. have not come from thin air spontaneously.
Have you completed (or at least begun) certifications useful for your career?
Did you teach children/seniors/handicapped computer skills?
Did you minor in accounting, hr, engineering, psychology or any other area that would distinguish you from the crowd?
Have you had any jobs that you can relate to this job? (PEOPLE SKILLS WILL BE A KILLER PLUS as you cannot work in a vacuum).
Did you attend any user groups or linux, *bsd, Oracle, SQL Server,
Did you attend vendor presentations from CISCO, Oracle, Microsoft?
I have met lot of people who hate their work simply because they got a degree without understanding whether they would like doing the work the degree was for. If you have not done work in your degree field, how do you know you will want to do this for any length of time?
When I was young, I had to rub sticks together to compute.
I've never had any trouble getting jobs, even during the "downturn". My ability to get hired is more from who I've worked with than what I've done. A lot of people have "impressive" resumes. There are generally more than a few that actually live up to the resume, so even if you're truthful, you'll still have a lot of competition when you go the direct route to applying for a job. The three keys to avoiding this competition are 1) the lead, 2) the inside push, and 3) the references. You don't need all three to get a job, but the more you have the better you'll do.
The "lead" is how you learn about the opening. A good lead gets you the news before it hits the normal channels (consulting agencies, newspapers...etc). This gives you a jump on the application process.
The "inside push" is when you're lucky enough to know someone working at the same place. The more valued the person is at his/her job, the more likely their push will benefit you. When a company has someone they know is good, they are more likely to take their advice, and they are also more likely to want to please them (the better to keep them there). It's also important how close the person is to the position you wish to fill. If you're really lucky, you know a good manager, team lead, or technical lead on or near the project/unit hiring.
Everybody knows about references, but the relative quality of your references can make a big difference. When you can put down executive or upper technical level references, it can make a huge difference. Having people equal to yourself isn't bad. It shows you are liked/respected by your teammates. However, when VPs and Directors will take the time to vouch for you, it can impress upon your new company how valuable you were to your former employer.
If you've never had a professional job, take the best that you can get and live with it until you're able to move on. If you do well, and make yourself valuable to your employer and teammates, you'll be able to leave sometime relatively soon (2-3 years) if you like. I've been able to avoid unemployment because I have good people pulling for me. In my opinion, there's no better asset in getting jobs than the support of respectable people.
One last piece of advice, regardless of how much you hate your job, never quit voluntarily unless you have an accepted offer with a start date somewhere else.
"A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself."
So nobody wants to listen to you drone on for 2 hours about how you know so much more than them? Why am I not surprised. If you want people to take you seriously, you had better have some constructive, practical ideas. Better yet, form your own company, treat developers the way you think they should be treated, and see how it works out. If it turns out to be a success story, write a book about it. It will sell, I guarantee you. If it fails but you learn a lot of valuable lessons along the way, write a book anyway. You'll have some interesting insights to provide to people. What won't get you anywhere is bitching about a problem that you made no attempt to solve and insisting people use your suggestions even though you have no experience in the area. Once you see things from the owner's side, you'll have a lot more insight to offer.
God I love doing this - mostly because it lets me be a prick from behind the thinly veiled pretense of being helpful. I'm going to critique your online resume and I'm going to be honest. Someone did it for (to) me a dozen years ago and I cried during the process, but I took their advice to heart and about a month later had a job.
:
1. Lose the picture. Getting past the first HR screening means letting them be able to prove lack of prejudice, so being a 'while male in his early 20's', while putting you in the 'good' bucket, means that HR can't say that they picked your resume on its merits without regard to race, color, creed, age, or sex. If they know, what are the odds they skip over you because they couldn't show lack of preferential treatment?
2. Double ditto on the horse picture. How do you know that the interviewer isn't a big Christopher Reeve fan?
3. Lose the personal stats, Title (Mr.), Date of Birth, and Marital Status. If the reason isn't blatantly obvious, see #1 above.
4. The personal stuff at the bottom, specifically the bit about being an avid four-wheeler and gun freak wouldn't go over too well in the People's Democratic Republic of California or the Communist Federation Commonwealth of Massachusetts (where Boston is.) I'm a bigger gun freak than you are, but I don't admit it on my resume or during an interview.
The good stuff
MCSE, CCNA, CCDA, and BS/CS (cum laude, in three years - good job.) Oh wait, that's not a degree in software engineering, it's a degree in multimedia on the computer (also known as Flash / Macromedia.) Hmm. That one could go either way, depending on how well you interview. If you were seeking a spot in America I would drop the classes / certs on equine behavior and being a certified murderer (that's how some people view firearms in the two states that hire the most tech guys, CA and MA - but in Texas that might be ok.)
Last thing - if you are going to post your resume, do it on a domain that doesn't have anything else on it. Nothing like finding a resume in www.yourdomain.com/resume and when the HR folks go up a level and find a blog talking about sex with a different college chick every night. Your main page is pretty tame, but I didn't probe too deep.
That wasn't too harsh - but not for lack of trying. Good luck on the hunt.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
As you're looking for full time employment, are you doing anything on the side? If you know PCs, get some business cards, print up flyers and try to drum up business doing small office/home office/home support/computer repair. It's one way of bringing in additional income while giving you valuable business experience dealing with irritating clients (yes, I'm serious!). It's also one way of increasing your base of contacts; one of those people whose PC you clean up may know someone who's hiring and can now give a good reference.
Do you have hobbies? Try writing software that can be used in your hobby. Like building handmade birdhouses? Write a program to calculate how much wood you'll need for projects and how much it'll cost. That kind of thing. The software itself doesn't have to be very useful, but it will accomplish two things: it keeps you developing and improves your skills and it gives you something interesting to talk about when you finally get an interview and makes you look productive.
Employers hiring for entry level positions won't expect much in the way of experience, but they will want someone who can work in a team and is motivated and smart. You'll probably find it easier to improve in that area rather than getting useful development experience quickly.
That's right - instead of the productivity gains of accelerating automation being spread out more equally, it is increasingly being concentrated by the extremely wealthy; us "useless eaters" are left to scramble for shittier and lower-paying make-work jobs (and hopefully die of disease-of-the-month to free up some realestate for more golf courses)
The pyramid needs to be flattened...
--
Power to the Peaceful
I agree with you but not because of some type of bigotry... its for one simple reason.
Until those countries give the same opportunities and have as open policies for american workers to go to their country then we should not do it for them.
I have friends who tried to get jobs at startups in India, and its impossible for someone outside of that country to work there because of their laws.
What's fair is fair I say.
Why should we open our doors to their workers when their doors are locked-shut to our workers...until then, our doors should be as closed as theirs.
I am for global free trade... but a free market is not a "one-way street".
-- Given enough time and money, Microsoft will eventualy invent UNIX.
NTLUG? Sorry if I'm being rude, but I find it incredibly hilarious that a LUG was named NTLUG. Someone thought it was a joke when they came up with that name, and then it stuck, right? Maybe next we'll have LUGXP?
Sig!
I've graduated a year ago, and I hope my experience can help you and other recent graduates, even a little bit, in this tough market.
I got my Bachelor's in CS in May 2003. I didn't graduate a Top 10 Ivy League school, or have a particularly good GPA, so I knew it was going to be very hard. I looked around for jobs for a while, went on a few interviews, but I had no clue on how to pass interviews, or how to write a resume. So, money was very scarce and I needed some kind of job.
So I got a job - I don't even want to say what it was, it wasn't programming for sure. I worked there for 8 hours a day, and then I went to my friend's office to help him set up his business - both software and hardware, and then I came home, practiced programming and sent out resumes. I read programming books on the train everywhere, as well.
After a while, I got really lucky - a family friend agreed to help me with my resume, and I realized how much it sucked. There's way too little space here and I don't have the time to say everything I want to say about the resume, but here's a few basic pointers.
Make it absolutely clear what kind of job you are looking for. Don't put there things that would indicate that basically, you would agree to any job in an IT field.
Put concrete things on your resume, that show that you know what the hell you're talking about. So instead of 'Programmed a Java', write 'Used Java to design and develop an inventory management application, utilizing Swing for front-end and JDBC to interact with Sybase database.' People that search through resumes on Monster.com or Dice.com don't look for 'Java', they look for Swing, JSP, JDBC - etc.
Don't lie. At least, don't flat out lie - everyone expects your resume to paint a little better picture than you actually are, but don't put blatant lies like 4 years of Unix experience while your Unix experience has been limited to checking your college mail at campus network (guilty).
Keep track of where you send your resume, what position, and what version of your resume. Nothing fancy, simple Notepad file will do. But it saves you a lot of valuale time while searching for a job.
Interviews - again, there are tomes written on this subject, but basic pointers again: SHOW YOUR ENTHUSIASM. Ask questions that show that you understend and are genuinely interested in the subject. The word "no" should NOT come out of your mouth. Of course, again, you shouldn't flat out lie - but if someone ask's you if you know skill X, instead of 'No', you should say "I've heard about it, but didn't have the opportunity to work with it professionally.. however, I'm a very fast learner and will pick up very fast"
The money question. The correct response to 'How much money do you want?' is "Money is really not that important to me, if the job is interesting and challenging, I would be happy with any reasonable offer." If they ask you to name a number, name a range. DON'T UNDERVALUE YOURSELF. If the job pays $40K and you say you'll be willing to do it for $25K, the alarm bell immediately rings in your interviewer's head - if this guy is so desperate to do this job for $25K, he must be a loser. Next!
So, in conclusion, looking for a job is a VERY HARD job in itself. You have to pay attention to every small detail and work very hard to succeed. In my case, after 10 months it finally paid off - I was offered a full time position and now happily working for a major financial company, with a salary almost twice as large as an average entry-level CS graduate.
The key is once you get into these roles work yourself out of them and into better positions. If you try to whine, complain, or brag yourself out of them it won't work.
It's also important these be small companies or small departments -- large companies usually don't care if Junior Support Technician #2679 is performing in the 98th percentile this week.
You'd be surprised how much that doesn't work.
I recently filled 3 of 4 open positions in my section and will be interviewing people for the fourth one next week. When I go through a stack of resumes, I triage them like this:
- Yes, contact these people. They get a first interview.
- Maybe. If the best people in the Yes group have already taken jobs or othewise don't work out, this is the stand-by group. So far, we have never had to call anyone in the Maybe group.
- No. People in this group are one or more of: way over-qualified, way under-qualified, totally unqualified, way too expensive, are in some other way unqualified (sometimes we relocate people, other times we want to make a local hire, for example), or they were caught in some lie on their resumes.
Among the members of the No group for this round of hiring is a person who was pretty well qualified (possibly over-qualified, but I would have put him in the Yes group) but was caught with BS on his resume. He is in the No group not just because that one part was a lie, but because at that point I instantly lost all confidence in all of his claims of experience. Anyone who has been looking at resumes for a while can recognize the BS pretty easily. If I see BS on your resume, you go into the No group. Do us both a favor and be honest. If you're honest, the worst thing that can happen is you won't get that position, but if your resume seems OK but just wasn't right for that position, I'll hang onto it. You never know what might come up in six months. If I catch you lying, your resume goes into a file of people who will never be contacted for a job with us.
Also, we do background checks before extending job offers. If you succeeded in BS on the resume and again at the interview, but get caught in the background check, not only will you not get the offer, you will never interview with us again. If you get by all that and get an offer and get hired and it becomes obvious the you just lied really well and got hired anyway, you will be fired. So far, no one has gotten past us.
I look at all the resumes I receive. It's true, triage takes out most of them. That's just a hard fact of life that comes from the fact that there are far more applicants than there are positions. I usually wind up with two (and sometimes three) resumes in the Yes pile for each open position. We interviewed six people for the three positions filled so far, and on of the other three was referred to another section where we knew they had an opening and her skillset matched what they needed a lot better than it matched what we needed. We still interviewed her, but we invited that section's manager to the interview and that manager asked most of the questions. The applicant is now a finalist for that position. If she had given us BS on her resume or in the interview, that would never have happened.
Bottom line: honesty on your resume and throughout the interview process is really the best policy, even if it sometimes looks like BS could be a good shortcut. The best people to work with and for, at the best places to work (and I think we are pretty good in both of those respects) will hire you as much for honesty and personality fit with the team as for technical ability. So much of effective management and team-building comes from recognizing people who don't *need* to be managed and who fit in well with each other and easily form a cohesive team, that if you don't meet those criteria then we don't care about your technical skills. I want people on my team who are honest, self-motivated, get along well together, and have no "issues" that I need to deal with. If you don't meet those criteria, I have no use for you. So don't lie on your resume or in the interview.
Be honest. It won't always get you the job, sometimes it might cost you the job, but if you sling BS either on your resume or in person, I guarantee it will cost you the best jobs out there.
Don't just look at networking toward those people who are involved in tech companies... There are plenty of non-tech companies out there who need programs written, and networks maintained. Computers have become such a major part of life that just about every company needs computer people, regardless of what they do! Not only will you gain good experience, but you'll learn a lot of new, interesting things that are completely unrelated to computer science. The beauty of computer science is that it can be applied to anything!
And here's even better advice when looking for an internship: get someone inside a tech company that doesn't normally do internships to ask around to see if they want to get an intern. Really, the ideal situation you want is to create the internship position, in which case you have a high possibility of being the only applicant! Then there's no difficult interview or application packet. I'm working an internship this summer, and this is how I got it. I made it into town on my spring break for the "interview" which was short and sweet, and more an outline on what I would be spending my time working on. And no, I'm not going to give out a company name. I would rather not have any compitition for the next time I want to work there, either.
//TODO: signature
I started out as a word processing-lab assistant, for minimum wage, quickly graduated to the faculty lab, then on as a full sysadm running all the computer systems. Along the way, I picked up a TON of experience including Novell (hey! it was neat back in the day,) UNIX, Linux, and Cisco networking.
Medium-sized schools or bigger tend to be pretty well equipped, even if it's not readily visible (does you school have labs spread across multiple buildings, dorm-networking, wireless???)
I leveraged that into a good IT engineering position, and beyond.
Get in with your UCS/ACS/OIT/Whatever it's called, department, and you can learn a heck of a lot.
-buf
We, for one, hire coders (and others) who have no prior work experience. In fact, that is my prefered choice. And I'll tell you why.
;)
First, let me be clear... no prior work experience doesn't mean we hire people with no talent. It's just that we don't count of a long resume as an indication that someone is without merit. That's just laziness (or necessity, time being money in the hiring process).
What we look for is someone who knows what they are doing and can demonstrate that to is in their resume cover letter, and ultimately at one of our interviews. We won't ask any of the stupid Microsoft questions except to see if you've been to the web site that has the answers accumulated (grin). But we will put you through a tough interview that focues on your ability to write code. If you can do that, it's a walk in the park. If you can't, we'll both know it's not a match real quick. But we'll still take ya to lunch, our treat.
One thing I've learned over the last 15 years... a resume is a damn poor indication of someone's talent. Therefore, if you ever want to apply for a job with us, go ahead and incude a resume but be damn sure you spent the time to make a cover letter that sells yourself. This will probably be true of any place you try to get hired on. (isclaimer: I've never really had to send a resume or go on an interview, but I've interviewed and hired hundreds over the years. So I can only speak to my experience directly.
In my case, I read resumes only if the cover letter intrigues me. A good cover letter should skip the pretence ("Seeking growth opportunities where I can apply my extensive education in bladibla..."). Save it. Just tell me how you code your butt off doing the kinds of things we do, and it might be cool to see if there is something we're doing that you'd like to be part of. Some examples of the stuff you've done is a huge win. Talk the talk. You're cover letter is being read by coders.
For me, I also like to see what areas an applicant wants to learn more about. We strive to find raw talent and give them a chance to really learn in the trenches. We've trained a lot of coders and 3D Artists, fresh out of college (or still in college) and continue to today. It's fun, rewarding and a way for us to give back.
So, yes, there are places you can get a job without experience. And have a blast doing cool stuff at the same time. I think there should be more, personally.
We're even hiring now, if anyone's in the market, email me and I'll turn you onto the right place to inquire.
David Whatley
Your resume is basically one or two sheets of paper you've sent in as part of an application. What happens is this gets torn apart, possibly duplicated and passed around. Objectives are useful, if written appropriately. An objective isn't a one-liner to show how big of a goody goody two shoes you are, it lets the reader know what job you are applying for. In practice your resume gets a scant few seconds of recognition before it gets placed into a "keep" pile or the popular "on file for 3 months" pile. Once it gets to the keep pile it will whorl around several people's desk and they may or may not keep track of it very well or what it pertains to. Hence a specific objective, like "a career as a Software Engineer at Obscene Quantities of Money Investments." But how can you write a general resume and have a specific objective? Answer: you don't.
You should definately have a general resume for uses like your webpage and for unexpected solicitations. There shouldn't be an objective on it like "a job in a challenging environment where I learn new things all the time", or any objective at all. But when you send a resume to someone, it should be TARGETED to them. An objective for starters. And certifications that count help as well. If you're applying for a military software job, maybe a gun cert would be helpful, though usually service counts far more, and
But remember that a resume is supposed to be curt. Extras like your hobbies and maritial status are extraneous and come off as padding and awkward.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
It was an obvious lie involving an impossible number of years of experience for the technology in question. Even if he had invented it , he couldn't have had that many years.
You think you can't be caught? Fine, just go on thinking that. I'll never have to compete with you for a job.
Keep thinking that about background checks, too. There are agencies that specialize in getting exactly that kind of information, and it's a lot easier than you think.
Screwing over entry-level workers? Who? When? Where? You obviously have no idea what being screwed over even is.
When, exactly, did all these nameless companies tell people that if they got CS degrees they would get jobs? No one ever told me that. If you said a lot of people assumed that if they got a CS degree they would practically have lifetime employment, you'd be right. But that is very far from companies telling them that. No company every tells anyone anything like that. Sure, the jobs dried up. That isn't the fault of any of the companies who are hiring (or not) CS graduates today. Indeed, the companies that are hiring (or not) today are the ones that survived. If you want to find someone to blame for the jobs that dried up, you have to look first to the people that ran all the companies that *didn't* make it. The ones who burned through huge piles of VC cash on luxurious parties, foosball tables, video games, any sort of corporate extravagance you could name, astonishing salaries even for people with no experience and less skill, the whole dot-bomb nine yards.
I remained gainfully employed through the burst of the dot-com bubble. The only period I was unemployed was from June to September of last years, and that could be termed voluntary, since I relocated and resigned from my old job to do so. Now, of course, I'm working again. Those three positions I wrote about were newly created. The one I still have to fill is an existing one to replace someone who got an offer he couldn't refuse. I hated to see him leave, but it's a great opportunity and I'm glad it went to a deserving person. If he ever wants to come back here, the door is wide open.
Do you know why I remained gainfully employed through the jobs massacre that was the aftermath of the dot-com era despite the fact that I don't even have a CS degree? Contributing reasons are that I'm careful about choosing who I work for, and also probably a bit of plain old luck.
Another is that while I did not do my degree in CS, I do have a brain and skill, and I use both. But the capstone of all that is that I never misrepresented myself in any way to any employer, so what they saw was what they got, and I could fully deliver on everything I claimed.
If you talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, you'll be the first to go if there is belt-tightening.
Also, please keep this in mind: pretty much every employer has a clause in their personnel policy which says that if they ever discover that you lied about anything on your resume or application, references, anything at all, you can be fired. Now, read this very carefully and be sure it sinks in: there is no one in my section who is so good that, if I found that they had lied to me on their resume and been hired on that basis, he or she could expect to have me not want them fired. No one.
Now, I'm not looking for skeletons in their closets, because they all have been checked out, they all are honest people, and they are walking the walk. But just imagine a situation where someone takes a dislike to you and *does* want to find a skeleton in your closet. There had better not be one on your resume, because that resume is still on file and they could go through it with a fine-toothed comb looking for problems. If they find out you never worked at company XYZ, or you never really took course ABC, that's all they need to fire you with cause.
You seem very young, possibly even an unemployed CS graduate yourself, with very little experience in the working world, and not much in th
You're right, they don't need cause to fire you. Not here in California, either.
But as you mentioned, they need cause to have you denied unemployment. That's why they'd rather fire you with cause.
Also, if they have cause, it's a lot easier to defend against any action you might try to bring against them. If someone sues you for wrongful termination, the fact that you are an "at will" employer isn't much of a defense in court. You want to walk in there and cite exactly what that person did to deserve being fired.
Sometimes the requirements on these jobs are atypical. It's a wish list. They KNOW they probably are not going to get that particular combination. They put that out there in hopes that they do get that combo. When theyh go through the resumes and job apps and find noone meets the criteria, the look at the next best ones and bring those ones in for a interview. Also, don't be afraid to work in academia for a while. It may pay less, bnut it's real work.
Gorkman
Black Box Testing
White Box Testing
Build Engineer
Release Engineer
Tech Support
Customer Support
Installation Engineer
System Administrator
Web Programming
PC Technician
Tech Pubs Writer
Sales Support Engineer
Take short-term contract positions, anything to get some experience and get references
Join an open source project team that is relied upon by the commercial companies, i.e apache
Develop your own open source project that requires you to develop and display your range of skills
Do a research paper on a particular technology or user group and submit to known publishers and web sites
Identify a specific area to develop deep expertise in (depth) or go the other way and develop alot of skills with less depth (breadth)
Take any position you can get even if its not technology related in a technology company
Tenacity, persistence! It may take some time, but keep knocking on the doors of the places that are of interest to you. My first job in hi-tech took 2 years of knocking on the same door, followed by another 2 years once I got in to get into the right slot You'll get there! Good Luck!
Everything that you do for them you can put on your resume. It works. I know from experience... }:-)
Too many people, sometimes even people like yourself with "35 years in the computer field," don't know very basic things, things that can make them less effective than properly-trained CS graduates.
There are a relatively small number of interview questions for candidates that help us to drill down on this:
There are many more of these questions, of course, but one doesn't have to ask them all in order to make a quick and accurate assessment.
I have found over 17 years as a hiring manager that non-CS graduates often have troubling gaps in their knowledge base. Not everyone has the intellectual curiosity to cover, completely on their own, all the topics introduced in a rigorous 4-year degree program. And, on-the-job experience appears to be a poor substitute.
Seriously this is what internships are for. Maybe you can't get 3+ years experience but you certainly can gain lots of experience that you can truth fully list as independent items. Lots of IT companies are happy to take interns unpaid and often even paid, for the summer or part time durring the school year. The career services office or some of your profs SHOULD be able to hook you up. If they can't then your school has big problems. I know my school now requires an internship to get a degreen is CS or IS.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
It seems to me you have experience, maybe even enough for what they're looking for. All they want is confirmation that you've done what you've said you've done. If you've really done it, setup a network of confirmations your hiring company can check out.
I've given my own recommendation before. Once a company I was interviewing with called the company I was currently working at. I just happened to answer the phone. They didn't ask my name and really didn't ask a lot of questions except to confirm what I had put on my application. I didn't lie on the application and honestly didn't and still don't see it as lying to confirm what I wrote. I got the job and worked for that company 15 years.
Don't lie, don't over exaggerate. If you have 3 years experience setting up networks (SOHOs for family and friends) with a Linux server, establish a validation network for the companies you're interviewing with. If you really do know xyz or have done 123 then have someone the hiring company will trust confirm that. That could be a $5 a month 800 number that a significant other answers.
I see it this way (and differenty than most) I start a job with the hiring company from the beginning assuming that I'm a lier who cannot be trusted. They demand I make availible others who will confirm my experience. I don't lie about what I know or can do. My word alone should and is enough. So, if they want confirmations, I make sure they get confirmations.