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Can A Bounty System Cure Spam?

dankinit writes "The FTC is considering a proposal made popular by Lawrence Lessig which would offer a bounty to people who help catch spammers. The proposal looks to harness the power of volunteers online who might want a piece of the multimillion dollar fines spammers could incur. Spamhaus founder Steve Linford doesn't like the idea though, explaining '...the FTC already has so much information on their identities that to get anymore would be useless.'"

69 of 281 comments (clear)

  1. No by mirko · · Score: 3, Funny

    Because some spammer might propose more money + no spam in exchange of their safety...

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
    1. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bad example since there are real consumers for drugs in need of these products while there aren't that many spam consumers explicitly asking for spam and being ready to pay whatever they're asked just to get their daily dose of spam.

    2. Re:No by arth1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm more concerned that a coalition of spammers might join forces to report "undesired" elements (i.e. anti-spammers) under a system like this, and that it gets misused for harassment.

      Just like the tattle-tale system set up after 9/11 has been misused more than it's been useful, I predict the same thing would happen with this.

      Regards,
      --
      *Art

    3. Re:No by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Usually the spammers are scamming both sides. They send out a round of spam to generate business, which says something along the lines of "promote your product to millions of people for only $2000". They think, wow what a bargain, and pay the spammer. The emails result in few if any responses and the marketing campaign is a failure. The business owner gets burned and learns a lesson, but as they say a new sucker is born every minute. Once the profitability of spam is gone and word has spread among online merchants that spam is a failure, only then will it go away.

  2. Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We know who is spamming us. Afterall, the spam message needs some sort of e-mail address or web address so that the fools can respond, so you just have to follow the money trail to get back to the spammer.

    The problem is that the worst these people are setting themselves up outside of US jurisdiction, so that FTC and company just can't get to them. Any spammer who doesn't is excessively stupid. There's nothing that the US courts can take from them... and I just don't think offering 20% of $0 is going to do much anyway.

    Bottom line is that this plan doesn't connect. As much as spam annoys us, the US Government just can't do anything about it because it's a worldwide problem. On the Internet, if one jurisdiction doesn't like what you're doing, you just need to find another who will accept you.

    1. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by wfberg · · Score: 5, Insightful


      The problem is that the worst these people are setting themselves up outside of US jurisdiction, so that FTC and company just can't get to them. Any spammer who doesn't is excessively stupid. There's nothing that the US courts can take from them... and I just don't think offering 20% of $0 is going to do much anyway.


      Yet they can freeze assets of suspected terrorists? Not to mention small time dope dealers.

      Spammers need to get paid in some way, too. That means that they will have US bank/merchant accounts. Those can be frozen, assets can be seized.

      Seizing assets happens in the war on drugs, but not when it comes to a white collar crime like spamming; by far a less "victim-less" crime.

      Credit card charges can be charged back to the acquirer (even if the dumb customer is satisfied). Acquirers can change their merchant contracts to prohibit spamming today.

      Profits made by mortgage intermediaries that don't care that their leads are spam-generated can be garnered (the leading mortgage banks could decide to include an anti-spamming clause in the contracts they offer intermediaries today).

      Meanwhile, mortgage lenders and credit card acquirers remain complicit, even though they do crack down on other types of crime - namely fraud, which would cost them the most money, as opposed to the crime of spamming where the costs is borne by society at large.

      They're just out to make a quick buck, bless 'em..

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    2. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, that's closing the barn door after the horse has already gotten out. Nearly all web server operators pull spammer sites offline as soon as they realize what has hit them to cut off the money chain before the transaction even happens. However, that's too late, the e-mail has already been sent.

      Spamming's so profitable when it works that they can put up with an insanely low response rate... unless you can put up a perfect blockade to catch all money headed their way, you're never gonna get it all.

    3. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well lets punish those who are advertised then?

      That is the problem.

      Funny how you can go to jail for watching dvd's that you own on an unapproved OS but its perfectly ok to spam and cost billions in damage?

      Reason being is under WTO corporate espianage treaties one can be held world wide under American laws. I think its BS and scary but this could be used to harm spam customers.

      After customers disappear the spammers wont be able to get paid and will cease.

    4. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by wfberg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you were to charge back/seize money on accounts used by spammers, that would spoil the profits of an entire spamrun, not just the potential income from the clueless who buy after x amount of time. Also, spammers already use "bullet-proof" hosting in China etc. so their sites won't get pulled.

      There ought to be no such thing as a "bullet-proof" credit card acquirer or bank when it comes to spamming, but at the moment they all are. Besides, you need to use a domestic bank/acquirer (which is not so when it comes to websites) so it's a lot easier to legislate those than to go after internet resources like mail and web servers, which are a dime a dozen and you can use one in whichever country you like to hide in.

      And if it gives spammers an incentive to commit fraud (e.g. use other people's accounts, fake identities), then all the better, that should wake up the Feds to start some serious prosecution.

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    5. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, far more than 50% of the spammers are in the US. The Spam Conference at MIT went into this in some depth. The US is where the bandwidth and the money are, it's where connectivity is plentiful and easy to get without showing legitimate ID, etc. So most of the spammers are there.

      But you're quite right that almost all spam is trivially trackable to where the spammer wants the money to go. Unfortunately, the CANSPAM act just made it nearly impossible to go after spammers in court, reserving that ability to federal authorities who couldn't find their own IP address if you burned it on their asses with a branding iron.

    6. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by Angstroem · · Score: 4, Interesting
      The problem is that the worst these people are setting themselves up outside of US jurisdiction, so that FTC and company just can't get to them.
      I've been updating my mail server's PCRE rules so that certain mails don't even hit the spamfilter.

      What I've noticed is that a fair amount of spam mails still feature .com addresses, and to an increasing amount .biz and .info (I'm already thinking of banning all incoming email which contains a link of any sort to .biz and .info sites...)

      What I also noticed is, that the domain names get weirder and weirder. So after all, I also see a responsibility on the domain registrar's site. If someone is registering domains like amsnbxtr.com, amsnbzxw.com, mnevbdsx.com, msnbsczx.com, wiggle6767tabs.us, or coolness6579meds.us it doesn't take much brains to guess the future use and sane registrars would probably deny requests if a bunch of nonsensical domain registrations comes in -- especially after they found spam pointing to the last batch of domain registrations.

      So the registration comes from fishy registrars, fine. Then just block all addresses which are registered through one of these registrars... The above examples, for instance, point to just two distinct registrars.

      Next generation spam filtering might just mean parsing the incoming mail for the occurrence of links, checking those domains against whois and the whois result against a badlist of known fishy registrars.

      It's crude. It's unelegant. But it surely ruins the business of both, the spammer and the greedy registrars who just care for registration fees.

    7. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The problem is that the worst these people are setting themselves up outside of US jurisdiction, so that FTC and company just can't get to them.

      I don't think so. As the guy from Spamhaus says, the FTC et al know who the sapmmers are, most of them are American, resident in America. Yet they dpo nothing to stop them. Just look at the ROKSO list Here are names and addresses of 180 of the world's worst spammers, 140 of who are Americans. It's lack of will, not lack of evidence. The direct marketing lobbies have made sure that spamming will not be stopped. If any value was put on the resources these people waste, the FBI's Most Wanted would all be spammers. But because they just look at it individually, it's seen a nickel and dime.

    8. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by Smallpond · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's it. Everyone buy one thing from a spammer, have your credit card number stolen, and lose your credit rating! Please don't forget the scum that you are dealing with.

    9. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by Jim_Maryland · · Score: 2, Insightful
      target the business using the spammer to advertize

      While I generally agree with this approach, one could also see where this would be abused. SPAM could be sent out advertising a company without the company being involved at all, just to get the company in trouble. An example:

      1. Spammer "X" is upset with the local bank for turning down their credit application. Spammer "X" decides to get revenge by creating a SPAM message that appears to be from the local bank. Email has valid links to the local bank and is sent to millions of email addresses. Receivers of the email complain that some bank is SPAMMING them.


      Now likely the local bank would be able to prove that they haven't arranged for SPAM advertisement, but that doesn't help the bank from a consumer perspective.

      I'm not against trying this, but the process is not without problems. I'm really hoping that the "zombie" systems are disconnected by ISPs to reduce the amount of spam mailing systems out there. If we can eliminate SPAMMERs ability to send anonymously, some of the anti-spam products will likely work better (mainly thinking of the list-based solutions).
    10. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by drtomaso · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just as with any crime, the crime of spamming would have to be investigated and tried. I am not saying the system cannot be gamed, but doing so involves gaming the legal system as well.

      To use your example, the case of a disgruntled spammer plying his trade with the express intention to get a business in trouble, there wouldnt be the necessary paper and money trail a conviction would require. In this case, it would be the spammer himself who is guilty, though hes guilty of alot more (fraud, trademark violations, etc). Nor am I saying not to go after the spammer- but in this case it would be as a conspirator. The person who hires a contract killer is just as guilty of murder as the person who pulls the trigger- and both are guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

      Clearly the standard of proof cannot be "We got alot of complaints." Does this make spamming harder to prove? Yes- but no more so than other white collar crimes. You have to follow the paper- the people who use spammers are doing it in a for profit enterprise that has a vested interest in staying on the side of the law- its really hard to make a good profit from prison. Paper and money change hands, and that creates even more paper in the hands of third parties.

      The international ramifications are more troubling, but again no more troubling than with other white collar crimes. A french company need not adhere to US laws, unless it wants to sell and ship its products to the US. Unless treaties are in place to handle this, you would have a tough time getting french authorities to investigate spamming for the US government. Barring their products from the country would certainly be a huge incentive for nations to get together and figure out how to handle such claims in advance. I dont pretend to be a lawyer, but I bet similar agreements are in place, possibly through the WTO, for other more traditional white collar crimes.

      - Tom
    11. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by grahamm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Does the USA have the concept of a writ of Mandamus? Where an official can be challenged in court as why (s)he did not perform statutary duties? In this case, if only specific agencies can enforce a particular law then these agencies should be held to account as to why they are not enforcing it.

    12. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by tonyray · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I replied to one of the mortgage spams just to see who would call. Intuit called. Maybe I should stop using Quickbooks and TurboTax.

      A couple years ago someone hijacked my mail server. I kept some of the spams and called the company, a real brick and mortar business, and asked them why they had illegally hijacked my server. They put me in touch with the company they had hired to do the emailing. That company had subcontacted it out and gave me the phone number of the subcontractor who turned out to be a couple with a cable modem working from their home. They had bought some spam blaster program (from a spam) and had gone into business. After talking to them, I really don't think they knew how the program worked. They had just received a package telling them how to use the program and a list of email marketting companies that hired subcontractors.

      So, should the dumb couple be sued for everything they own? Should I turn them over to the FTC? How do you separate the willful from the dumb?

    13. Re:Cure 81 doesn't work, try #82.... by wfberg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, should the dumb couple be sued for everything they own? Should I turn them over to the FTC? How do you separate the willful from the dumb?

      If I stupidly walk in front of a truck, do I not bleed?

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
  3. In the words of Darth Vader by Zorak+Man · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I want them alive... no disintegration." Oh to be a bounty hunter...

    --

    404 .sig not found
  4. Bounty hunting time! by MongooseCN · · Score: 4, Funny

    Can A Bounty System Cure Spam?

    Depends, will the FTC hand out Boba Fett type bounting hunting uniforms? I wouldn't mind starting a collection of Spammers In Carbonite on my walls.

  5. Want to catch spammers? by underpar · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just answer a few simple questions and we'll send you this FREE spammer catcher software!

  6. Oblig simpsons by murraythegreat · · Score: 2, Funny

    There's no justice quite like angry mob justice

    --
    See your sig here
  7. Spammers abusing the system by bunburyist · · Score: 4, Funny

    think about it: spammers start trying to catch each other for the bounty, and then they form these massive spamming groups (read gangs) that join up to get the bounty on other spammers...then you end up with a smaller group of REALLY powerful spammers...i gotta stop playing Mafia...

  8. Random thoughts by LaserLyte · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can A Bounty System Cure Spam?

    Unlikely. But, if the law actually get's off it's ass and actually hands out fines, spammers might be more inclined to stick the equivalent of "this is spam" (the opt-out message, etc.), which could make filtering more effective.

    Perhaps we should be fining the ISPs who happily let spam-servers loose on their network?

    "It would promote vigilantism on the Net and it probably would not catch any bad guys," said Louis Mastria, spokesman for the Direct Mail Association

    There are plenty of technically-skilled knowledgable people out there who might otherwise not have bothered, but who could probably track a few people down.

    'the FCC has so much information on their identities that to get anymore would be useless.'

    We don't care whether they're known or not. We just want to bankrupt them and get the money we have lost* due to spam.

    --
    * Most end-users don't lose money, but the amount of stress and anger caused to me by spam has probably shortened my lifespan, and can you put a price on that?

    1. Re:Random thoughts by RodgerDodger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps we should be fining the ISPs who happily let spam-servers loose on their network?


      Well, a few years ago, this would have been good, but more and more spammers seme to be shifting to using zombie PCs instead.
      --
      "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
    2. Re:Random thoughts by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 2, Funny
      * Most end-users don't lose money, but the amount of stress and anger caused to me by spam has probably shortened my lifespan, and can you put a price on that?
      I'll try: Lets assume spam reduces your lifespan with 1%. On average a hitman cost $25,000 and reduces a person's lifespan with +/-40%. This makes about $625/1%. So spam costs you approximatly $625.
  9. Laws? They don't need no stinkin laws... by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Spammers aren't exactly the kind of people who are scared of breaking the law anyway. A good chunk of the time, even if sending the spam was legal, the message it contains doesn't exactly pass the smell test anyway. Phishing scams, offers to buy perscription pills without having to see your doctor, or the basic fraud of selling a product and then not sending it are some of their favorites.

  10. This is crazy by barcodez · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Spam just needs to be made illegal in all countries and investigated like any other international crime (e.g. extrodition orders, sharing of information across borders, copperation on investigations).

    Why we need a different mechnism for capturing these Spam criminals is beyond me.

    --

    ----
    1. Re:This is crazy by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Informative

      Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a world judical system. We have extradition and cooperation with the places that want the same from us... but there are also places where they just don't care about us.

      The world is not united in supporting us in everything we do, and when we falsely assume that we get ourselves into a deeper problem.

  11. Steve Linford by Monofilament · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, he says whats the point.. cause they already know enough about spammers.

    one reason. Information about people isn't guaranteed to be evidence that will hold up in court. So getting citizens to help with evidence against the spammers, from different sides than just teh FTC info gathering, helps any case that they would put up agains the Spammers.

    Who knows if it will really work .. but just felt i wanted to disect this either misquoted statement from Linford (which i wouldn't put past slashdot stories) or just narrowminded comment.

    and yes .. i have no intentions of reading more than the /. blurb on this one.

    --


    Who makes you Sig?
  12. Yes, it would work! by lunarscape · · Score: 5, Interesting
    As someone who has personally sued a spammer, I can attest to the fact that the only way to make spammers stop is to hit them in their pocket books.

    We would need an organized way of combining suits against spammers. Otherwise, those millions of individual suits would clog the courts. A bounty system is the perfect solution. People who collect information on their spammers would organize and report that information to a centralized organization which would handle the actual law suits. Then this organization could pick its targets by employing a pseudo-random, RIAA-style method of picking out random spammers with a boatload of complaints. Any money won would be distributed evenly to those who provided reports on the spammer.

    1. Re:Yes, it would work! by lunarscape · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I seriously doubt there are "millions" of spammers.

      I never said there were. I said there could be millions of law suits brought against spammers. And "millions" would not be an unreasonable number for that. There were almost half a million do-not-call telemarketer complaints, and I think it's safe to say that junk e-mail outnumbers telemarketer calls.

      It's more likely that the number of spammers (just in the U.S.) is in the thousands, but the principle idea of their job is to reach as many people as possible. Thus, there is the potential for those few spammers to be faced with hundreds or thousands of law suits each. Even with fines as little as $100 per e-mail, it'd be enough to bankrupt most of them and discourage others from taking their places.

      This is how to fight spam, people. Don't just block it or ignore it. Fight the spammers directly! Take away their livelihood! And we need strong laws and enforcement on the state and federal level to do this. A bounty system would fit perfectly into such a system.

  13. Play on the Dumb by millahtime · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Give them a free tv if they show up at say a convention center. err maybe a free xbox if they are say in the first 400 people to a convention.

    This may sound like it wouldn't work. They tried giving away a free tv to the first 400 guys to show up at a conference on not paying child support and they caught like 400 some guys who were deliquient. Lets try it on spammers.

    1. Re:Play on the Dumb by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The classic "You've won, come pick up your prize at..." scheme is a great way for police to get a ton of people who are wanted for various reasons to all show up in one place where they can seal the exits and arrest them all at once.

      However, that kind of thing only appeals to the deadbeat dad type who doesn't have tons of money and decided that they could just skip paying child support to make ends meet... if the person is so rich to not need or want an extra TV, the bait just won't be appealing. Spammers are that well off...

  14. Motivation of Spammers and Vigilante Justice by Vexler · · Score: 2, Informative

    This idea is of course not new. Microsoft has been offering money for information leading to the arrest and prosecution of virus/worm writers, and yet has seen relatively few leads.

    There was an article recently on Slashdot that talks about the motivation of spammers as being primarily "money" - for college, for a late loan payment, or for just a quick financial pick-me-up. But in order for this type of "vigilante justice" to work for the government and ultimately for everyone, the motivation has to go much deeper. On one hand you could argue that few people volunteer to fight cybercrime because there is little or no money involved - so let's throw some money into it and entice people to do right. But I wonder if the ones who can are simply not doing it because there is a lack of worthwhile motivation. Money seems mundane, even insulting at times, as reward. Contrast this with the h4x0r culture, a meritocracy where your reward is respect and even deferential treatment from your peers when you demonstrate real skills.

    It's fine if you want to resort to this type of measure, but what are the motivation and reward of doing good and getting rid of those who do bad things for rewards as trivial as money?

  15. Dealing with Spammers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    They should all be locked up with men who have enlarged their penises, used viagra, and are looking for a meaningful relationship.

  16. There is no "Cure" by Angry+Prick · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But we could go a long way towards eliminating Spam if the right people would grow some backbone and do the right thing.

    1. Cut off Spam from the Zombies.
    Cable and DSL companies should block all port 25 traffic coming from their customers. If you want to send e-mail, you should have to use use their SMTP servers. Running your own mail-server is against their TOS in many cases, anyway.

    In all fairness, however, this could be handled on a case by case basis. If you are such a macho techno-geek that you really really really really just absolutely HAVE TO run your own mail server, you should have to ask them for persmission first and enter into some sort of agreement that you will not be part of the Spam problem.

    2. Cut off the Zombies.
    Any cable/DSL customers spewing out large volumes of e-mail (without permission to run a mail server) get a nasty letter, telling them that their service has been terminated until they secure their computer.

    3. Follow the money. Follow the money.
    Spammers have to make money, somebody has to get paid. They aren't doing this for the fun of it. Trace the money trail back to the people who get paid for the herbal viagra and penis enlargement pills. It isn't easy, but it can be done. If you follow the money, and apply EXISTING laws, such as:

    * Child Pornography Statute 18 U.S.C. 2252
    * Electronic Communications Privacy Act 18 U.S.C. 2701-2711
    * Economic Espionage and Protection of Trade Secrets Law Pub. L. No. 104-294
    * Computer Fraud and Abuse Act 18 U.S.C. 1030
    * Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act 50 U.S.C. 1801-1811
    * Transportation of Obscene Matter for Sale or Distribution 18 U.S.C. 1465
    * Federal Wire Fraud Act 18 U.S.C. 1343

    you can shut down the Spammers.

  17. It all adds up by heikkile · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If this can motivate people to report spammers, especially people with inside knowledge, then it is a good thing. True, it won't stop all spam, but anything that hurts spammers must be good.

    Although spam looks like a very international problem, I believe that a good number of spammers are based in the USA, they just use machines outside USA to do the dirty work. If this helps FTC to get to those spammers, and make their charges hold in court, all the better.

    If they only found a good law to throw at those who hire the services of spammers, sell access to compromised machines, sell address lists for fraudulent purposes, then we might get somewhere.

    --

    In Murphy We Turst

  18. Bounty systems are bad. by Lazy+Jones · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Such a system has a fundamental problem: it will motivate people to act purely out of greed, with no further interest in helping to avoid spam. They will therefore concentrate on reporting "easy targets" and perhaps even report people who aren't actually spammers and can't prove it. The whole idea is rather cynical and smells of defeatism (the law won't help => hire bounty hunters acting outside of the law).

    --
    "I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
  19. This was proposed already ... by arhar · · Score: 4, Funny

    .. in a great sci-fi book "Labyrinth of Reflections" by Sergey Lukianenko. Unfortunately, it hasn't been translated into English (yet), so I can't post a link ...

    In the book, there's a funny bit about cyberworld residents meeting in a town hall by the Statue of a Last Spammer... built when the last spammer was exterminated by the bounty hunters. Being wise enough, the governments still decided to keep the bounty in effect AFTER the last spammer was caught.

    Personally, I think this is crazy enough that it could work. Imagine the unlimited energies of 16 year olds who spend their days glued to the computer, chatting on IRC, cracking porn site passwords, doing various small-scale mischief and playing Counterstrike, directed towards catching spammers. All I can say is, that would be a BAD time to be a spammer.

  20. It won't work, but for a different reason. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There was a story on /. a while ago about mortgage spam. The large mortgage vendors (many of them legitimate banks) were the ones that responded when some mortgage spam was answered.

    It seems that those institutions were paying for leads and they didn't really care where the leads came from.

    So, do you fine the guy who sent the spam or the company that contacts you after you answer the spam?

    If you only fine the guy, there will be another to take his place (and, as you noted, they will move outside of US jurisdiction).

    Can a bank that never before sent you any email be fined for contacting you if you send someone an email saying you're interested in a mortgage? Until that starts happening, nothing is going to happen to the spam level.

    Follow the money.

  21. I can track these guys down by Sheepdot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think there's some confusion on the part of a few posters here that needs to be cleared up.

    The spammers aren't the companies that pay these guys to do it. The spammers are the people who actually queue up the messages and spit them out. Now, I know what you're thinking, the company being advertised is at fault, too. But still, there is an order that you gotta go through in order to get the right people.

    After all, you don't go after the gun manufacturers for creating tools of self-defence just because unintended users end up killing people, right? The proper order is, the person who used it, the parents of the minor that used it, the retailer that sold the ammo, THEN the gun manufacturer, right?

    Oh wait, nm. I guess the anti-gun sentiment amongst the public tends to skew the proper order you'd think this should be. But still, I'm the kind of person that is capable of hunting down spammers, but I simply don't do it because there is no incentive.

    A monetary incetive might be lucrative, but I'd have to see the amount of money given. If it's too low, it's not worth my time. If it's too high, like the Microsoft reward offers for the Sasser and Blaster creators, then I know they aren't actually going to pay out.

  22. Re:kaboom by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 2, Funny
    I feel the need for some airstrikes...
    Airstrikes are so passé. This is the 21th century. Orbital laser cannons are the answer.
    We provide vaporization services all around the world at affordable prices. Call now and get to vaporize 2 people for only $699*.

    *offer void when costumer want to vaporize Orbital Laser Services personel or property.
  23. Obligatory by Nuclear+Elephant · · Score: 3, Funny

    This article advocates a

    ( ) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based (X) vigilante

    approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

    ( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
    ( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
    (X) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
    ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
    (X) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
    ( ) Users of email will not put up with it
    (X) Microsoft will not put up with it
    (X) The police will not put up with it
    ( ) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
    ( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
    ( ) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
    ( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
    (X) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

    Specifically, your plan fails to account for

    (X) Laws expressly prohibiting it
    ( ) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
    ( ) Open relays in foreign countries
    ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
    (X) Asshats
    (X) Jurisdictional problems
    (X) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
    (X) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
    ( ) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
    ( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
    ( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
    ( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
    ( ) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
    (X) Extreme profitability of spam
    (X) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
    (X) Technically illiterate politicians
    ( ) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
    (X) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
    ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
    ( ) Outlook

    and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

    ( ) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
    been shown practical
    ( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
    ( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
    ( ) Blacklists suck
    ( ) Whitelists suck
    ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
    ( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
    (X) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
    ( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
    ( ) Sending email should be free
    ( ) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
    (X) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
    (X) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
    ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
    ( ) I don't want the government reading my email
    (X) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

    Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

    ( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
    (X) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
    ( ) Nice try, l0ser! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your
    house down!

    1. Re:Obligatory by Idarubicin · · Score: 2, Insightful
      (X) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money

      This is rather the problem that this technique aims to solve, I thought. Compensate directly the people with the skills to find spammers.

      (X) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it

      If there's always a reward, there will always be people working to try to collect it.

      (X) Microsoft will not put up with it

      Why would Microsoft be upset that someone is fighting spammers? They'd probably be pleased at the reduction in junk traffic through Hotmail.

      (X) Laws expressly prohibiting it

      If the FTC is considering it, then they probably have lawyers looking into this. Quite frankly, I'm more likely to believe the FTC than a /. IANAL.

      (X) Unpopularity of weird new taxes

      This isn't a weird new tax. This is a reward for providing information about a criminal. This is not a new concept.

      (X) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money

      You mean...cash?

      (X) Extreme profitability of spam

      This makes bounty hunting more lucrative. The fines (and corresponding bounties) can be larger.

      (X) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks

      This proposal involves turning over information to the relevant government agency (apparently, the FTC) so that they can pursue law enforcement action. This is not a vigilante approach, per se, in that the actual punishment isn't carried out by the bounty hunter.

      (X) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses

      I give up--you're going to have to explain this one. I'm pretty sure the GPL doesn't have a clause that prevents disclosure of incriminating details of spammers....

      (X) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem

      It's not just a feel-good measure if the FTC actually pushes prosecutions based on this evidence. And the public will be motivated to push the FTC--we want our bounties!

      (X) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

      I agree, but I think taking their money through criminal prosecution, and using that money to fund further anti-spam action isn't such a bad start.

      (X) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.

      I guess this is where the (X) Asshats in part 2 come in. Is the proposal a panacea? Of course not. Is the proposal deserving of contemptuous rejection out of hand? Don't be a...stupid person.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  24. I agree with Linford by Chatmag · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Tracking down the spammers is not a problem. As I and many others have said, follow the money trail. I advocated setting up a credit card account and making purchases, then when the transaction is completed, the billing records will show who bought the goods, then prosecute them.

    The problem with prosecuting individual spammers is that the Justice Department goes after big money criminals more agressively than small fry spammers. They are more interested in capturing the guy that embezzeled millions of dollars, rather than the guy that sent out millions of emails.

    Alices Restaurant Updated:

    There he was, sitting on the bench with all the bank robbers, embezzlers, serial killers,

    "Whatcha in for, kid?"

    "Sending 7 Million spam emails"

    ...and they all moved away

    --
    Pete Carr Owner Chatmag.com
  25. It could work if... by bani · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...it worked like current bounty systems.

    The police issue warrants for bail jumpers.

    Bounty hunters get $$$ for bringing them in.

    With a spam bounty system, it could work like this:

    The feds put up 'info wanted' notices for specific spammers. It would eliminate the objections people have of vigilantes going after innocent legitimate marketers. The feds would be asking for information about specific spammers, much like the FBI's most wanted list.

    You call in leads, the feds prosecute, you get $$$.

    The idea here being that there are often people out on the internet who are far more skilled or have far better connections than law enforcement, in tracking down miscreants.

    There are likely a lot more net-skilled individuals out there than there are law enforcement officials with good net skills.

    Why not put that talent to use, a bounty is great incentive (besides the satisfaction of putting spammers out of business).

    Pretty simple.

  26. Re:Bounty Hunters by Rogue974 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Armed sysadmins tracking down spammers, breaking down the doors? I can't imagine my sysadmin doing more than picking up his cup of coffee or typing on his keyboard or taking his calculator out of his pocket protector, let alone being able to break down a door! Sysadmin 1: Break down the door! Group of sysadmins start hitting door repeatedly to try and break it down. 30 minutes later, police arrive. Police Officer: You are all under arrest for disturbing the peace, we had a call from the person living here about the excessive noise! Another failed attempt for the sysadmin bounty hunters to arrest a spammer!! ;)

  27. Most spammers are americans in US jurisdiction by bani · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They live in the USA, they are american citizens. They just spam using servers in china to try to hide the true origin.

    Very few spammers actually bother to move outside US borders. And even then, unless they officially renounce their citizenship, they are still US citizens and can still be deported + prosecuted -- no matter where in the world they may be.

    The US courts can sieze their assets. Their house, their cars, their computers, etc. Ever wonder what all those government auctions are? Most of them are auctioning off siezed property from criminals. There is serious $$ there.

    So yes, there's plenty the US courts can take from them, unless they're living underneath a bridge in a cardboard box.

  28. Finally someone who sees it right! by swb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Finally, a poster that sees it right (or at least my way...:).

    Spamming and spamvertised business have become enmeshed in the otherwise legitmate economy (either through banking, ISPs, list brokering or trickle-down to middlemen like mortgage intermediaries).

    Why isn't the FTC leaning on those people? Or at least publicizing their involvement in spam, even if it is indirect?

    Furthermore, given the prima faciae fraudulent and/or illegal nature of spamvertised businesses and products, why isn't the FBI starting RICO investigations against these third parties whose implicit cooperation is necessary for spammers to do business at all? RICO has serious penalties and can be used to "bundle" miscellaneous state and federal law violations that would otherwise be unprosecutable or not worth prosecuting individually.

    There's too much of this "it's all overseas" mantra and "we can't do anything about it." I say bullshit -- there's a money trail to follow and a bunch of people who would rather not be the target of a Federal racketeering indictment who live right here in the USA.

  29. Where are Bin Laden and mullah Omar today? by Chep · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, I'm asking this question, because AFAIK there's a multi-million USD bounty on their heads today. Yet they're still hiding.

    Until the spamming problem is causing buildings to collapse, this FTC bounty system is not going to do anything. And even supposing that the mountain of junk we receive causes computer to be so heavy they start to crack the concrete, it's not because there's a bounty that the capture and conviction becomes easy.

    At least not until long-range individually targeted viruses are feasible and bounties are paid for DNA samples of spammers. And if that happens, methinks spam will not be our biggest concern.

  30. Close, but no cigar by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A bounty system isn't right, for exactly the reason Steve Linford says. It's preposterous to suggest that the government needs more information.

    What we need instead is a law similar to the Tennessee law which simply made spamming a civil offense and set out a clear, punitive civil penalty structure. The problem with the TN law was that the penalty wasn't quite enough.

    I suggest a law that simply makes spamming a civil offense, with punitive damages set at $5000/spam and compensatory damages set at $10/spam. There woudl be a 10% bonus for pornographic spam. The law should be worded to give judges little discretion except to determine whether a particular email is spam. If the defendant is on the FTC's list of spammers, then the judge would have no discretion. His job would be to swing the gavel.

    Having DA's or AG's go after spammers makes no sense. They have more important cases to deal with usually. Leave this up to people who are the victims. The spammers will die a death of a thousand cuts.

    The hardest part is tracking them down, but since the FTC already has a lot of information, they need to make it public to assist.

  31. Why not the sellers? by Monoman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why aren't the companies that sell the products being punished?

    They should be much easier to track down and they are the ones hiring companies to do the naughty work for them.

    --
    Keep the Classic Slashdot.
  32. More motivation really needed? by mwood · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'll happily forward any and all UCE, gratis, to someone who can actually nail the pests. I usually send a notice to the offending system's owners when I think someone's host has been hijacked. My typical experience is that nobody wants to hear about it. :-{

    I suspect we'll see more results from private action, now that someone has been foolish enough to crack into some sites with expensive reputations to maintain in order to distribute their junkmail-mirror trojans. Financiers are dangerous dudes, and the damage from the latest horror goes way, way beyond that of the typical defacement prank.

  33. Simple solution sounds great, won't work by KarmaOverDogma · · Score: 3, Informative

    Your agruments seem great on the surface but further examination reveals flaws:

    point 1)
    I agree with the idea behind port 25 issues: having ppl who must run their own mail server get permission in advance does *sound* good. However, legitimate/responsible users who ask for permission in advance will, by definition, have alerted the ISP they are running a server and then be charged more for it. This will not be seen as fair when you consider they may, in fact, be using less bandwidth than the average on-line gamer or true zombies of which you speak. This also speaks nothing to overseas ISPs beyond enforcement and ISPs that don't give a fsuck.

    my point here is that legitimate users should *not* have to pay extra (literally) on the account of spammers.

    point 2)
    shutting down zombies sounds great, but without effective automation it won't be effective because it will be too expensive and further raise the operating costs of ISPs beyond what they are already losing in lost bandwidth. How would you have the ISP distinguish legitimate mail traffic from spam without looking at every email? You could simply measure the volume of mail, but again, legitimate mail users would be cut off or would have to pay more.

    I suppose if you dont care about legitimate mail servers from home paying (a lot) more this could work well, but only for mail from ISPs that actually care, and it only takes a few that don't (or pretend to but don't) to ruin this idea while still leaving ISPs free to charge legitimate users more in the name of abuse they cannot truly curtail; I don't like the idea of internet mail becoming corporatized than it alreday is.

    Again, overseas/unenforcable spam and its ending money trail will continue. We can try to get financial insitutions to be more responsible with these transactions, but that assumes way to much in the way of co-operation. Most will give lip service and do little or nothing about it because of the costs invloved in curtailing it and lost revenue by someone else picking up the shady sales portal business.

    point 3)
    existing laws and standards of enformcement are fine for those within the bounds of enforcement, but there are so many who are not that we would not be prudent to expect much out of them.

    Human behavior is always the weakest link in every security chain. Towards this end, our efforts would be better spent on education and good bayesian filters.

    In short, don't you really think these relatively simple solutions you have proposed would have alreday been applied if they'd work so well? Typically, our world is far more complex than simple solutions allow for.

    .

    --
    uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
    1. Re:Simple solution sounds great, won't work by Slinky+Saves+the+Wor · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not all ISPs make you pay more if you run a server.

      Also, as for bandwidth, if you're sold 512 Mbit/s line, you can damn well use the 512 Megabits per second, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's what you pay for. If not, contact your local consumer protection agency and complain about fraudulent advertising.

      In short, don't you really think these relatively simple solutions you have proposed would have alreday been applied if they'd work so well?

      I see red whenever someone uses this argument. We'd still be sitting on the ground had certain two brothers decided that they could build a flying machine. They didn't think "Oh, if it were possible someone else would have already built it".

      It is trivial to find a phone number or a name + address from any spam I receive. For me, these addresses always point to the USA (for some reason I don't get Russian, Chinese or French spam). I wish there would be some avenue of letting the US authorities know of a company who utilizes spamming to market their products. Anyone who is part of the spam value chain deserves to be fined.

      At the minimum, start at the end of the chain, at the company which sells the stuff. That's where the money comes. Without advertising, there will be no spam.

      Typically, our world is far more complex than simple solutions allow for.

      This is not always the case. There can be remarkable complexity stemming from even the simplest of solutions. Check out Wolfram's book for examples.

      Food for thought: maybe it's just the spams which I receive, but I've noticed that there is no political spam around. No religious spam either, everything is about selling some cheap crap. Wonder why this is so?

      --
      I do not moderate.
    2. Re:Simple solution sounds great, won't work by KarmaOverDogma · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I personally have recieved my fair share of political spam. However, many organizations don't (yet...) likely because they don't want their message diluted by this very unpopular method of distribution and the potential liability it entails (read as: getting one's ass sued off, or more likely, having a mainstream PACs donations be reduced to a mere trickle after being labled a spammer). Political spam is, by nature, more localized, vulnerable and issue specific, so a target is somewhat easier to find and deal with, and there are many political enities who would jump at the chance to prove their oppents resort to spam.

      Indiviual politicians and their connetced re-election PACs/campaigns are reluctant because it would usually easier to see who is ultimately responsible for it. Politicians will only be able to say for so long, "Well, I didnt send/sponsor that so I'm not responsible for it" before ppl see through that excuse.

      I can see this situation deteriorating more over time, though, as politics gets more and more devisive and dirty.

      Regarding your comment that, "I see red whenever someone uses this argument." You're preaching to the choir. If you see red, then maybe you should take off your red blinders.

      I never said we shouldn't TRY to solve problems. What I said was "TYPICALLY, our world is far more complex than simple solutions allow for." I think if the wright brothers were still around today they would argue with your assertion that inventing *practicle* flight was easy.

      Of course, it was worth doing. Of course spam is worth fighting. But I'm not going to lose *any* money or more than a few seconds of my time re-tuning my bayesian filter to deal with it; spam is beneath my doing anything else with it.

      .

      --
      uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
  34. Re:Finally someone who sees it right! by msobkow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I agree. There is a money trail, and that is the problem. Somewhere in back someone has to be spending some of those profits in kickbacks for protection.

    The spam is illegal. The products are fraudulent. The trail exists. Nothing is done.

    Why?

    Because your politicians never actually read their own email, so they don't have to deal with it.

    Start printing the spam and sending it in to Congress, making use of the free postage when contacting your representative, and keep doing that for a few months.

    Flood them with paper as you are flooded with spam, and I guarantee they'll finally get off their asses and do something about the problem instead of just lip-service laws with no enforcement.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  35. Re:Finally someone who sees it right! by Scaba · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Flood them with paper as you are flooded with spam, and I guarantee they'll finally get off their asses and do something about the problem instead of just lip-service laws with no enforcement.

    Yes, they'll have you arrested under some vague and frightening anti-terrorist law.

  36. Spam doesn't bother me as much as bad websites. by b0r0din · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you ask me, spamming doesn't bother me nearly as much as popup windows on IE that download Ad Viruses like WtoolsA and ClearSearch on my computer. Spam requires I click on the mail and hit delete or Spam. All hail Yahoo.

    No, for me, it is the websites that authorize Ad Viruses that piss me off. People who host such sites should be permanently shutdown and its owners castrated.

    And yes, I know IE sucks, but my girlfriend uses IE regularly and she doesn't know better and it's not as easy to get her to switch over to Opera or Mozilla. And it seems a lot of stuff just doesn't work right without scripting.

    So before going after spammers, go after those fuckers, for gods' sakes. I'm sick of having to troll through my computer every night running Adaware and HijackThis and antivirus to ensure I don't have more crap on my computer.

  37. It just came to me the solution to spam. by FictionPimp · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Ok, try this, what if everyone setup their machines to spam?

    I mean spam every address you can find send thousand of duplicate emails a day, bring the entire internet down. We made the thing, lets take it back down. Then leave the unwashed masses out of it. And if we can't take every router in the world down by sending massive amounts of spam, maybe we can make the signal to noise ratio so high that the spammers wont make any money.

    Imagine a day when everyone gets 100,000 plus emails per inbox. Each one for a different product. It would be impossible for them to read each ad, so the real spam would get bypassed and the spammers wouldn't make any money.

    Now before anyone takes this serious, I know this wouldn't work, even if we could get thousands of people to send fake spam, they would be the ones the lawmakers would go after while the real spammers. And besides, its most likley morally wrong.

    But I say, If you can't beat em, join em. If we were all spammers, nobody would care about spam.

  38. Better Idea by nwbvt · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Can CAN-SPAM. That law just threw out stricter state laws and denied private citizens the right to sue over unsolicited email in exchange for a toothless federal law that is full of loopholes.

    Implementing a bounty system is just a dumb idea. Do cops offer rewards to help them catch common criminals? No, because a system that does so would just flood the phone lines with false leads. Same here. As Steve Linford (who probably knows a lot more about the subject than Lawrence Lessig) said in the article, the problem isn't that the FTC doesn't have enough information on spammers. I think keeping your inbox clean is enough of a motivation for most people to report spam.

    I read a book by Lessig once. Internet visionary my ass. The man clearly had no clue what he was talking about.

    BTW, just a nitpick, the article refers several times to the "CAN-Spam" law. Such a law does not exist. The "CAN-SPAM" law, on the other hand does. The entire thing is the acronym (Controlling the Assault of Non-Solicited Pornography And Marketing Act of 2003), not just the CAN.

    --
    Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  39. Re:Finally someone who sees it right! by swb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The spam is illegal. The products are fraudulent. The trail exists. Nothing is done. Why? Because your politicians never actually read their own email, so they don't have to deal with it.

    I'm not sure that's it, but I'd wager that the DMA or other business lobby groups has put a lot of pressure on the FTC, Congress and other enforcement/lawmaking entities and lobbied them heavily on the value of spam to their respective businesses; they soft-peddle it as only "porn" being a problem, when in reality all the other shady, it's-legal-if-you-read-the-disclaimers spamvertised businesses are just as, if not more, fraudulent than porn. Idiot politicians boil it down to its most basic election politics -- "business good, porn bad" and don't do anything about it.

    Who also wants to bet that the DMA didn't strike some secret deal with the FTC over the Do Not Call list; "we won't make a Supreme Court case out of it if you don't start handing out spam indictments".

    All in all, the mystery remains, though -- spam is illegal, the products are fraudulent at best, and the money trail exists, yet nothing is done about it. I know it's not a pure conspiracy, but it really feels like one.

  40. Forward this article.. by bl8n8r · · Score: 4, Funny

    To 10 of your closest friends and recieve money from Microsoft and the FTC!! It really works!! I know you got email like this before, but this one is the real thing!

    --
    boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
  41. Better idea by Phred+T.+Magnificent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Take out the portion of MAY-SPAM that denies end users private right of action. When I and a million other people have the ability to personally sue the spammers, then maybe something will get done.

    --
    Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
    Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
  42. Another useless spam idea by mabu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The bounty system presupposes that there will be civil action taken against a spammer in the first place, and those that help will get a reward.

    The problem is, we have hundreds of civil-oriented anti-spam laws on the books that are not being enforced or pursued. It is not economically viable to use the civil courts to attack the spamming industry. The main reason is that it's not cost-effective: good luck finding a lawyer who will take this case which will cost a lot of money and time up front with no guarantee of a pay off. Second, suing someone in civil court generally works when you can find these people and bring them into court, which is very problemmatic with spammers, but more importantly, it assumes the spammers have money in the first place, which is pretty doubtful. If spammers were really making lots of money, they'd be more visible than they are - all indications are that most of these people are transient scam artists with very little long-term equity in their posession. So the bottom line is that civil suits have never proven to make any difference in this field. Who's crazy enough to jump on this bandwagon? What has happened to people when they propose ideas that are based on premises that have shown to be consistently useless and ineffective?

  43. Re:Could you explain the rule? by Kent+Recal · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm looking forward to see the first photo-gallery of spammer-ears and tails on the web.

  44. Bounty you say? by silicon+not+in+the+v · · Score: 2, Funny

    Can I take their scalps like a real bounty hunter?

    --
    We may experience some slight turbulence and then...explode. -Capt. Mal Reynolds
  45. Prosecutions are prohibitively expensive by majid · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The Register had an article that explained why a bounty system won't change much - the cost of investigating and prosecuting is too high. When hunting terrorists, it's a small price to pay, but law enforcement and prosecutors have finite resources and they have to prioritize. That's why the techniques used to nab terrorists aren't going to be applied to hunting spammers anytime soon.

    There is an alternative, however, that could make anti-spam enforcement much more effective, and nip the problem in the bud. Visa/MC would give the FTC and their European counterparts "poisoned" credit card numbers to use on spammer sites. Any merchant account that attempts a transaction using such a number would be immediately frozen and its balance forfeited. A portion of the proceeds could be set aside to pay for Visa/MC's costs, giving them an incentive to participate.

    You could even imagine a next step - since the spammers' clients would be known, you could fine them, since they are the ones who keep spammers in business in the first place.