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Americans Read Fewer Books

DesScorp writes "The National Endowment for the Arts has released a study that shows a decline in the reading of fiction, poetry, and short stories. The study began in 1982, but shows a particularly steep decline from 1992-2002, the first decade of the Age of the Internet. They never seem to draw the conclusion that the Net may have accelerated our turn from this kind of reading, but the timing seems suspicious to me. I know I don't read for pleasure as much as I did years ago because of the time spent on the Net (and in technical books). NPR has a good audio link here for you non-readers; the Seattle Post-Intelligencer has a nice article as well." You could also - assuming you read - see the study itself.

105 of 726 comments (clear)

  1. But of course! by da3dAlus · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why do you think everyone on Slashdot has to yell RTFA?!?! Oh wait...I think I posted without doing so myself--DOH!

    --

    Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
    1. Re:But of course! by Rosyna · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I bet if they did another study, they'd find that americans read MORE now than they did 10 years ago.

      The internet is a platform delivered through text and porn.

    2. Re:But of course! by cmacb · · Score: 5, Funny

      "The internet is a platform delivered through text and porn."

      True. But I read it just for the articles.

    3. Re:But of course! by mbrother · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is counting novels and "literature." Internet blogs, /., WWDN, fark, etc., do not count in the survey. Science fiction magazine circulations have dropped through the floor in the last ten years, losing out in the ever expanding competition. As a writer, I see this as a bad thing, but as a reader and consumer, my options are just getting better and better.

      --
      Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
    4. Re:But of course! by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 2, Funny

      This is counting novels and "literature." Internet blogs, /., WWDN, fark, etc., do not count in the survey.

      So if I'm reading Slashdot, I'm not really reading. Those aren't really words and I'm not really here. I'm not really writing this, either. It's all just some fevered fantasy of a some tree that fell in a forest that nobody heard. (Okay, I didn't say it was great writing.)

  2. why books by RepeatedEigenvalue · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why should we read books? It's just a matter of time before they become movies anyhow. America rules.

    --


    friends don't let friends use linearly dependent row vectors.
    1. Re:why books by afidel · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, like I, Robot
      /shudder.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:why books by gamgee5273 · · Score: 4, Funny

      My wife keeps asking me why I don't want to see the movie. I keep telling her that Will Smith makes for one very butch-looking Susan Calvin...

  3. Re:technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well, reading any more is such a pain in Braille since I've gone blind from too much pr0n and.. you know.. what goes with pr0n.

  4. Attention spans by smilinggoat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I read alot, particularly content on the web, so I'm not really concerned with our culture becoming "post-literate" because of the decline in novel consumption. The thing I do worry about, however, is attention span. I believe my attention span has dropped thanks in part to sites like slashdot, where you get your morsel of information, feel satiated, and move on.

    That said, I believe television to be much more dangerous to the attention span than anything else.

    BTW, I just finished The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey. Incredible!

    1. Re:Attention spans by bsartist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I read alot, particularly content on the web, so I'm not really concerned with our culture becoming "post-literate"

      I am concerned, because I see mistakes like the one in your post being made with increasing frequency. "A lot" is two words - you wouldn't say "alittle", would you? Another all-too-common mistakes is misuse of the apostrophe; no one seems to know (or care) about the difference between a possesive and a contraction. Homonyms are another common error; writing "their" instead of "there" or "they're" for example.

      I'm not picking on you personally, smilinggoat. For all I know, the mistake in your post could have been a simple typo. It's just that the typo was especially jarring, given your expressed lack of concern about this very issue. Perhaps you should be more concerned.

      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    2. Re:Attention spans by 0racle · · Score: 2, Informative

      Reading doesn't change any of that. I do read and I read many different things from fiction to poems to more technical books. None of it has had any affect on my spelling or grammar.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    3. Re:Attention spans by smilinggoat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But yeah, I agree with you, my spelling and grammar are definetely not what they used to be when I was in high school (now I'm in college as a music/computer science student, no writing for me!) and gave a crap about that stuff. I figure language is an ever evolving way that a culture uses to describe the world. As the culture changes, the writing changes. If the majority of the people make the same spelling mistake or grammar error on a more regular basis than the "correct" way, isn't that just language evolving?

    4. Re:Attention spans by maskedbishounen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My sister has a young child, two or thereabouts now. I've ended up watching many hours of childrens programming these days.

      Dora the Explorer especially disturbs me when it comes to the whole lack-of-attention-span thing. In case you haven't seen it, here's how it works. Dora asks a question and then pauses for so of seconds. The pause is for the children to yell out at the screen the answer to the question. Dora then goes on to say how they got the answer right and did a good job.

      Could it be that this program is creating loud, yelling, people in need of attention? No attention span because they'll soon expect instant gratification for everything they do?!

      Oh, but how many more management-types do we need in this world? We's clearly rolling downhill, and quite out of control.

      --
      "An infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never make a good program."
    5. Re:Attention spans by Nasarius · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Maybe not for you, but for a lot of people it does. Especially children. For adults, it should at least improve your vocabulary.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    6. Re:Attention spans by bsartist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the majority of the people make the same spelling mistake or grammar error on a more regular basis than the "correct" way, isn't that just language evolving?

      Wouldn't that be a good reason to study it? We know language evolves - we can study and compare historical documents from different time periods to see that. But when have we ever been able to see the evolution happening right before our eyes, at such a rapid pace?

      A thought just occurred to me - could this trend be compared to biological evolution? We can only observe that in action in insects and other organisms where the life span is so short, and reproductive cycle so fast, that we can easily observe the changes as they happen across dozens or hundreds of generations.

      Could the internet be accelerating the pace of linguistic evolution similarly, to the point where we can now observe it happening in real-time? Is it really that the internet is informal, or reduces attention span, or is the language(s) evolving more quickly as a result of a more efficient and faster communications medium?

      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    7. Re:Attention spans by the_ed_dawg · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I read alot, particularly content on the web, so I'm not really concerned with our culture becoming "post-literate" because of the decline in novel consumption.
      The decline in novel consumption doesn't really concern me either. However, I believe in the importance behind reading something that has been through an editorial process. As an ECE graduate student with a teaching position, I can reasonably say that the communication skills of college graduates are lacking. My guess is that they have spent too much time reading blogs, Slashdot posts, and l33t sp34k e-mails and not enough time reading properly structured English.

      Then, there are those people who insist upon using uncommon words and structuring painfully complex sentences in an attempt to impress people when a simple sentence would be much more effective. I had a student like that in my senior design lab. He would write really long sentences describing his design that would cause me to reread everything two or three times. Then, another student had an inferior design but explained it very well. Anyone care to guess who got the higher grade (on the written portion)?

      [contrived example]

      Student #1: "The quadrature radial encoder transmits a series of unsigned binary positions and a checksum through a radio frequency (RF) channel to the monitoring terminal, where the results will be dissiminated to the proper interfaces."

      Student #2: "The sensor communicates with the computer through RF."

      [/contrived example]

      --
      There are two types of people: those prepared for the zombie apocalypse and those who will be eaten.
    8. Re:Attention spans by Mad+Martigan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know we're drifting perilously off-topic here, but if you're at all interested in how the English came about, and ... well ... anything really about English, you should read mother tongue: english and how it got that way by Bill Bryson. It's scholarly in parts, but, overall, it's very funny and a great read.

    9. Re:Attention spans by mbrother · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At the same time, TV I think has a slowing effect. We have a national, even international medium, that standardizes English for the first time ever. In London, for instance, people from different neighborhoods are identifiable by their dialect. We have that in the US to a lesser extent, but having the same newscasters in everyone's home every night has to have a stabilizing effect. Which one will win out? I think the stabilizers will, but at the same time have seen internet communities adopt new terminology with lightning speed. It's an interesting experiment we're playing out.

      --
      Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
    10. Re:Attention spans by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      Your (self-admittedly) contrived example does not actually demonstrate what you were talking about, though. Student #1 isn't just saying the same thing with more verbosity. In addition to using overly big words, student #2 is *also* communicating a lot more information than student #2 was. Student #1 is mentioning what kind of sensor it is, mentioning a little about the style of communication with the computer, and mentioning that once the computer recieves the data it will be passed on to other interfaces.

      So whether Student #1 was wrong to be that verbose depends entirely on the context (which we can't see from your contrived example) of the paper. What level of detail was appropriate? If it was supposed to be a more high-level view of what is going on, then student #2 has the better phrasing. If it is supposed to be more detailed, then student #2 has the worse phrasing.

      As Einstein said, everything should be made as simple as possible, <b>BUT no simpler</b>.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    11. Re:Attention spans by mcleverl · · Score: 2, Funny

      The difference is in what your two students want to do when they grow up...

      The 2nd student just wants to be an engineer. The 1st wants to be a patent attorney.

    12. Re:Attention spans by Matthias+Wiesmann · · Score: 2, Informative
      Wouldn't that be a good reason to study it? We know language evolves - we can study and compare historical documents from different time periods to see that. But when have we ever been able to see the evolution happening right before our eyes, at such a rapid pace?
      Actually, there are languages that evolve very fast. One example are the Swiss German dialects. As they have no fixed written form, those language tend to change in short spans of time (mine is twenty years old for instance). One the interesting side-effects of this is that two speakers have to do some initial synchronisation in order to communicate. Because it has no written form, Swiss German dialects cannot be used for formal, written communication. High-German is used for that, so this means people basically use two language, one for day to day communication, and another, formal language. The linked paper offers good insights about the divergence of the languages.

      One thing I noticed is that as mails are not considered 'serious' written matter, people write Swiss-German in a phonetic way. The resulting text is as legible for a German as l33t-speak. On the other hand this form also enables the reader to figure out where the writer is from. Of course, this is mostly done by young people. I would not be surprised to see blogs written in Swiss-German...

    13. Re:Attention spans by gilgongo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Using "uncommon words" is something that you can only judge in context. Uncommon to whom? The man in the street, or the particle physicist? Similarly, long sentences: legal documents or patent applications deal with things that are complex, and need to be set out as accurately as possible, so often have lots of sub-clauses and lists, etc. In fact, short sentences in those situations actually makes it HARDER to understand the subject matter, since you tend to lose the "linking" ability of the syntax to help position the ideas.

      If you mark your students down for long sentences and "difficult" words, then you would have probably flunked just about any technical writer of the 18th and 19th centuries - and I don't see anyone here slagging off Charles Darwin for being unclear or pretentious. Here's an example of his writing style:

      Seedlings from the same fruit, and the young of the same litter, sometimes differ considerably from each other, though both the young and the parents, as Muller has remarked, have apparently been exposed to exactly the same conditions of life; and this shows how unimportant the direct effects of the conditions of life are in comparison with the laws of reproduction, and of growth, and of inheritance; for had the action of the conditions been direct, if any of the young had varied, all would probably have varied in the same manner.

      That's one sentence! Lose a mark Darwin!

      Or if you're American, how about the Bill of Rights:

      The Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
      A huge run-on sentence! And he said "beneficent" - deduct two marks for being a poser.

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    14. Re:Attention spans by nathanh · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Then, there are those people who insist upon using uncommon words and structuring painfully complex sentences in an attempt to impress people when a simple sentence would be much more effective. I had a student like that in my senior design lab. He would write really long sentences describing his design that would cause me to reread everything two or three times. Then, another student had an inferior design but explained it very well. Anyone care to guess who got the higher grade (on the written portion)?

      Student #1: "The quadrature radial encoder transmits a series of unsigned binary positions and a checksum through a radio frequency (RF) channel to the monitoring terminal, where the results will be dissiminated to the proper interfaces."

      Student #2: "The sensor communicates with the computer through RF."

      I'm hoping the first one. The second one conveys no information about the transmission other than it used RF. What is the computer doing? What does the sensor measure? What happens to the data? Hopefully you had a third student who wrote:

      Student #3: The temperature sensor communicates with the monitoring terminal through RF. The encoding scheme is quadrature radial encoding [Bib199]. This encoding consists of unsigned binary positions and a checksum to detect data corruption. The monitoring terminal is an IBM computer with multiple outgoing interfaces. It demultiplexes the data stream from the sensor.

      The first student needs a smack in the head for that run-on sentence but the second student is a lousy engineer. If they can't describe the situation more precisely than "communicates with RF" in a written report then I wouldn't want them anywhere near my team.

  5. Prices, etc... by Joe+U · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Book prices have gone thru the roof in the past 10 years.

    Combine that with more Internet use and a 500 channel cable TV system (with a DVR, of course) and it's no wonder I hardly read anymore.

    Drop softcover prices down to a sane $4 and hardcover to $12 and we'll see an increase in reading again.

    1. Re:Prices, etc... by smilinggoat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Book prices have gone thru the roof in the past 10 years.

      Riiiight. It costs so much to walk down to the local public library and check out a few books every now and again. Remember, if you return them on time they're FREE!

      Also, I buy used books. They're cheap and have the exact same content.

    2. Re:Prices, etc... by Hott+of+the+World · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My local library doesnt carry any star trek or HGTTG books.. I know, I've checked.

      I will give props to the used bookstore bit, but they arent exactly common around where I live (and I get to be charged 5 bucks a book from most sites!)

      --
      | - | - |
    3. Re:Prices, etc... by Joe+U · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Riiiight, I live in NYC, where the funding for the library gets cut yearly and my local neighborhood library serves several thousand people a week.

      So, a popular book comes out in January, I figure I'll see it in March or April.

    4. Re:Prices, etc... by Moofie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Never mind cost. How about getting decent quality for my hardcover book buying dollar?

      The edition of _The Confusion_ I checked out from the library is falling apart from the crappy glued binding. My copy of _Cryptonomicon_ is doing the same thing. I've got half a shelf full of hardback books that I read frequently, and many of them have folios falling out of them.

      I would love to demand higher quality for my $26. But each publisher has a monopoly on a given title, and I don't have that option. So, I'd rather buy a good ebook reader, and buy an electronic copy. Oh wait, there aren't good ebook readers, and lots of ebooks cost as much as the hardcover editions too.

      Whee. I love monopolies.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    5. Re:Prices, etc... by 1000101 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So you're 3-4 months behind the "latest trend". So what? There are thousands of good books available in NY libraries. Just because you don't have the latest best seller today doesn't mean you can't read it tomorrow. Besides, how many of the top 25 best sellers have you read from March '04? Bottom line: lame excuse.

    6. Re:Prices, etc... by EinarH · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Book prices in USA are lower than in many European countries. And in some of the countries where people read much more than what Americans do, like in Scandinavia, France, Germany, UK and Japan they have to pay more for their books than the average american reader.
      If you compare newspaper readership statistics which is somewhat linked to reading of books you will see that you can't blame it on the recent economic downturn either. During the financial crisis in Japan in the ninthies people continued to read newspapers. (and book readership remained more or less frozen AFAIK).
      So I don't think price is the problem.

      I would rather think that it has something to do with culture. There is a term called "cultural capital", coined by the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu. The term makes a distinction between the traditional capital value of material wealth and of the cultural "assets" or capabilities of a particular class. Just as traditional capital(money) cultural capital can be aquiered, ignored and converted. Cultural capital again can be divided into several sub-classes just as traditional capital. Some of the sub-classes helps define the person based on the fact that they are "thought into the person" and therefore they can't be changed easily.
      For example if your parents are "white trash" you don't read Bourdieu, or any other written text/newspaper, because no one told you about him and you are busy watching the latest news about Lacy Peterson and Kobe Bryant.
      On a related case consumers will decide what they want to consume based on their cultural capital. (10 bucks and a beer on continued decline in US book readership...)

      The term really makes sense if one belive that people in the USA are more or less to some extent seperated into different classes both economical/social and cultural (regardless of whether you think that this is a good/natural/bad thing). If one say that these differences have increased in the 1992-2002 period it matches the teory that increased differences will lead to a larger gap between peoples cultural capital and also inderectly to a larger gap between those that read more and those that read less.

      So even if people in the USA do have the money to buy tons of books some of you don't because the more cable TV you watch the more you are prone to continue subscribing.

      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  6. Is this really a big surprise?? by the_rajah · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've got several books stacked up to read, but I just don't seem to get around to them as interesting as they are. It's not that I don't read a LOT, but the majority of it is on this little screen that I'm looking at now. The immediacy and interactivity of the Internet much more easily grabs my attention. The times when I do get some significant reading done are those times when I don't have easy Internet access, like sometimes when I'm traveling or if I'm stuck in waiting rooms like the doctor's office.

    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  7. Reading is poor... by edashofy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For the time invested, reading is a very poor way of getting information, especially with regards to fiction. Yes, there are advantages (ability to use imagination, etc.) but really, reading at 50 pages an hour I might spend 10 hours reading a new Tom Clancy book.

    At the end, the total amount of recall I have of specific aspects of the book will be about equivalent to the recall I'd have after seeing a movie, only the movie gives me the information passively and in a fifth the time. Do you really remember significantly more detail about a story from reading a book than from seeing a movie?

    Also, (and I think this is hugely important) reading has very limited memetic aspects. When I've read a new book, the first thing I want to do is discuss it with other people. However, since relatively few people have read the same book. The meme hasn't propagated. I can explain the experience of reading the book to others, but most of the time they really don't care because I'm unable to convey enough to start discussion. With a movie that millions have seen, or a webpage with a quick read that I could blog about or send the link around in email, the memetic aspects are much greater.

    1. Re:Reading is poor... by Free_Meson · · Score: 4, Insightful
      At the end, the total amount of recall I have of specific aspects of the book will be about equivalent to the recall I'd have after seeing a movie, only the movie gives me the information passively and in a fifth the time. Do you really remember significantly more detail about a story from reading a book than from seeing a movie?

      You need to work on your reading skills... You should retain more info from the book that is not in the movie than info actually in the movie... Even the most pathetic contemporary authors like Clancy, who are writing in order to sell screenplay rights, include far more detail than you could hope to include in a movie...

      If you think that a movie can replace a book, you don't know how to read fiction. Seeing an elephant's shadow is not the same as seeing an elephant...
    2. Re:Reading is poor... by globalar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Do you really remember significantly more detail about a story from reading a book than from seeing a movie?"

      I agree that sight/sound/effects is a better combination for memory, but I think time plays a critical role in format. When I was reading LOTR, I remember thinking, outside of reading, about the characters (mostly characters - Gandalf's voice/tone, the beauty of Arwen, etc.) and what the fantasy world was like. As I took my time reading the books, I grew my own conception of the world. Now I'm not a big fiction/fantasy reader (in fact, LOTR is the only such series I can name), but Middleearth was a place in my mind and I was a part of that mental creation. In a way, I made my kind of film-like experience in my head.

      But that took time. I had to think a little about it, turn over a few ideas at night (I read before bed), until I decided what I wanted the world to be like. As I read, my world grew with the book's story. By the end, I was left somewhere else where I was comfortable.

      Having three movies with some good length helped the theater experience, but the books were my highlight (which I read before the films). The films also reinforced how I envisioned the world from the books. In some ways, the movies are foriegn to me (if that makes sense).

    3. Re:Reading is poor... by edashofy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not sure what reading "skills" are. What would acquiring these "skills" really give me? I'd have better recall of the events that happened in a book? A slightly different insight as to the motivations of fictional characters? Certainly there have been *bad* movies made of books, ones that lose the gestalt of the story entirely. In these cases, when I read the book, it's almost like seeing a remix of the movie with more deleted scenes :)

      Is what's contained in the book really detail for detail's sake, or is it important? Good fiction (of which there's strikingly little and it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between the good and the bad without plowing through it all) makes the details important.

      Yes, seeing an elephant's shadow is not the same as seeing an elephant, but reading is usually like looking at an elephant and then looking at it again with a microscope. Sure, I get more detail out of looking at it with the microscope. I might see the grass stuck between its toes and the snot hanging off its trunk. But the important part is generally the elephant.

    4. Re:Reading is poor... by gamgee5273 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Wait... I have to take issue here:

      When I've read a new book, the first thing I want to do is discuss it with other people. However, since relatively few people have read the same book. The meme hasn't propagated.

      It's called a reading group. They do exist. For many years I was involved in one at the University of Michigan, and it is still going.

      But you do not have to be connected academically to start a group. You have seen people at Borders and B&N and your local coffee shop, right? They are all holding the same book in many cases...

      If, for some reason, a physical reading group doesn't work for you, then there is always the Usenet (it's not all porn and warez) and other sites on the Web.

      Don't blame your lack of reading on those around you. While the Internet may very well to blame for the severe downturn in reading over the past 12 years, it is also the greatest tool you have to discuss things.

      Like we are now. ;)

    5. Re:Reading is poor... by kirkjobsluder · · Score: 2, Insightful
      At the end, the total amount of recall I have of specific aspects of the book will be about equivalent to the recall I'd have after seeing a movie, only the movie gives me the information passively and in a fifth the time. Do you really remember significantly more detail about a story from reading a book than from seeing a movie?

      I have yet to see a movie that successfully managed to cover more than 1/5th of a good novel, and the process of going from novel to screenplay usually does quite a bit of violence to the story along the way. The ideal source material for a movie appears to be either the short story or the stage play.

      Novels are novels and movies are movies. There is quite a bit that you can do in a novel that is hugely difficult to do in a movie. I just finished A Wizard of Earthsea and Tombs of Atuan this week for perhaps the 5th time, and realized how much large chunks of those novels center on internal psychological narrative that is very difficult to do without relying on something trite like a voiceover. Even further, Tombs of Atuan is even more sparse with both action and dialogue.

      And that of course misses the point that fiction is not just about character and plot, but about the beauty of words, the twist of an unusual metaphor that sparks a new connection, since I'm reading Le Guin:

      In this, probably its true aspect, the airport is not a prelude to travel, not a place of transition: it is a stop. A blockage. A constapation. The airport is where you can't go anywhere elese. A nonplace in which time does not pass and there is no hope of any meaningful existence. A terminus: the end. The airport offers nothing to any human being except access to the interval between planes. "Sita Dulip's Method", published in Changing Planes


      Or William Gibson's best opening hook:
      The sky was the color of a television, tuned to a blank channel.


      Certainly, cinema has its own beauty, its own poetry, its own way of presenting the unusual twist of metaphor. But its a different beauty and poetry from a well-written novel or short story. As much as the two mediums like to trade off plots and characters, filmmakers figured out about 80 years ago that cinema is something different.

      There is the entire assumption in this post that movies and novels are about information rather than entertainment or even *gasp* art. Only bad movies are passive. Good movies require just as much interest an effort as a good novel. Of course, the magic of a good movie or a good novel is the hook. A good work of art will inspire you to give of your time and energy willingly.

      If you want the information there is no problem finding reviews with all the information in the form of a synopsis.

      Also, (and I think this is hugely important) reading has very limited memetic aspects. When I've read a new book, the first thing I want to do is discuss it with other people. However, since relatively few people have read the same book. The meme hasn't propagated.

      I think memetics is a bunch of hooey and the wrong theory to describe what is going on here. But in practice, I've not found this to be a problem to talk about books as opposed to talking about movies.
    6. Re:Reading is poor... by Mithrandir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You need to work on your reading skills... You should retain more info from the book that is not in the movie than info actually in the movie..

      Not at all. Recall abilities are highly dependent on the nature of the person. Some remember visual things far better than written, while others remember aural. Spend some time chatting with various friends and see how someone remembers the details of a given event. Some will relate the visuals, others will relate about what someone said or did etc. Just because one person doesn't remember something as well from written form versus someone else does not make their reading or watching skills any lesser, it just means that their brain functions differently. If you've ever spent any time teaching a lot of people, this is one of the first things that become evident - not everyone learns and recall things the same way.

      --
      Life is complete only for brief intervals in between toys or projects -- John Dalton
  8. Not the Net by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I feel this is the eventual fallout of not teaching the novel innhigh school.
    Many schools will allow a magazine article to stand in for a book.

    Disgusting

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Not the Net by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well I think part of the problem there is that high schools have trouble teaching good novels. I appreciate that kids do need some exposure to classic literature, but in my high school that's like ALL it was. We read book after book after book of "great" literature which more or less meant old, and hard to read. Anything new was crap, anything kids might enjoy was crap. I mean there was like NO sci fi. Well I must ask why that is the case. There is GREAT sci fi. Ender's Game ought to be required reading. It is interesting, easy to read, and speaks to adolescents. This is the kind of book that will make kids want to read, not Great Expectations or Jane Eyre.

      Thus you find that kids don't do well at reading novels, they get bored and don't finish them and don't perform well. You find they do better with magazines since they are shorter (thus easier to force your way through bored), usually easier to read, and usually more interesting.

      Now before you go on about reading skills, the thing you have to remember is that not everyone is bound for university. What I generally find when people argue for these dense novels is that they expect all kids should perform at university level. Hell, some seem to think that they should all perfom at unviersity level IN HIGHSCHOOL. That's just not a valid assumption. The majority of kids will not go to university. They need good English skills, of course, including reading, but good to common literature, not good at decoding Dickens overly verbose and arcane style.

      So I don't see a problem with allowing magazines and the Internet in more, and I do think that when novels are tought, they need to be ones kids can actually enjoy. Sure you do harder stuff for honours/AP classes, but not for all kids.

      Also the net really is increasing the amount people read overall. IT may not be for pleasure, but no one said you must read for pleasure. People get more and more information from the Internet instead of books. This is not a bad thing, just a different way of doing it. The old way in education is NOT the best way, we revise educational theory all the time.

    2. Re:Not the Net by dmaxwell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Isaac Asimov addressed this point in the foreword to one of his essays. Paraphrased roughly, what he was getting at was that parents and teachers were dismayed with the amount of time kids spent reading pulp fiction and comic books. "They were still reading." was the way he put it. Even the ability to read a pulp comic requires a level of competence that TV does not require. TV is an attempt to create a highsided version of the reality that comes in through your eyes and ears. There is no reading ability required to consume this form of entertainment. The only real way to improve on what TV is to make it more immersive, more "real". "High definition" TV is an obvious first start. They may even try for 3D or "smellovision" again if new tech allows for feasible economics. The only reason advertisers and executives would want this is that it would require even less effort to consume.

      Kids reading genre fiction (even better if we throw lots of genres in) and discussing it would be infinitely better than just throwing the X-Men movie in the DVD player. The paperbacks would at least require the ability to read and comprehend the written word. I'd be a lot happier if kids were discussing fun pap like the Stainless Steel Rat books rather than watching movies in school all day.

    3. Re:Not the Net by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The reason they teach "old, and hard to read" books is because they are part of our shared culture. Ender's Game, for all of its "fun" has had little impact on contemporary culture outside the narrow-band of science-fiction. Great Expectations, on the other hand, is well-known to orders of magnitude more people. References to it and similar "classics" are sprinkled through-out our culture.

      So, the point is not merely to teach basic reading skills, it is also to give people a historical context in which to better understand our shared modern culture (for example, just look at how many movies are rewrites of such classics - "Cruel Intentions" is "Les Liaisons Dangereuses," "Clueless" is "Emma," "Apocalypse Now" is "Heart of Darkness," Shakespeare gets redone both overtly like Baz Lurhmann's "Romeo + Juliet" and undercover like, "10 Things I Hate About You" and "My Own Private Idaho" - the list is effectively endless, our culture just keeps repeating itself). In light of the goal to teach a common cultural base, most Science-Fiction can't even begin to come close to replacing "the classics."

      Besides, Dickens is not hard to read, at least not compared to titles like Canterbury Tales, Dante's Inferno or most of Shakespeare's plays.

      PS - please no diatribes about concentrating on "western culture," as our country becomes more culturally diverse, certainly classics from non-european countries gain more and more relevance to modern American culture.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:Not the Net by cooldev · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You both have a point; it's all about balance. Both classic and contemporary authors should be read in school, and in my opinion students should be able to pick at least 25% of the books they read for class (from a reasonable list).

      After taking many honors, AP, and college english classes, it took years before I could get back into reading for enjoyment.

      To make matters worse, most English teachers are female, and at least in the classes I took there was a definite skew toward books that are torture for normal teenage males (eg. Emma).

      Poetry disgusts me to this day, having had to survive though the bizarre, biased interpretations that make astrology and dream interpretation seem like science. And remember kids, you get graded on having the same interpretation as the teacher!

      Luckily I was able to BS my way through, always getting at least a B.

    5. Re:Not the Net by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's fine, but I can name even more, and even older writings that are even MORE influencial to our culture. How about the Lord of the Rings? This is the very basis for almost all modren fantasy. It was what D&D took it's basis on, and because of that and its formalized rules, many, many games base on that. LOTR and it's counterpart D&D form an immensly strong basis for the fantasy world. Horrible novels, if you asked me, but they are where most of the fantasy came form.

      Or let's go more modern: Neuromancer. That is what started cyberpunk. It is the DIRECT influence of The Matrix (to the point the named a song "The Mona Lisa Overdrive" in Reloaded). The dark, syber-techno universe that is so popular in many movies, games, shows, etc started here.

      How about we go way back, to one of the most influencial of all: The Bible. Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not Christian, I think the Bible is a bunch of fiction and nothing more, but it is probably the sole most influencial book in western society. Yet, I've never seen it read in public schools (believe it or not, you can look at the Bible from a secular standpoint).

      Or how about philosphy? Why no Descart, Locke, Searle, Nagel, Popper, Harnish, Berkley, Bach, Kant, Plato, Frege, etc. All these people helped to shape modren western thought on at least one important issue (and yes, I have read at least some of each of their works). They didn't just write stories, they contemplated important issues and shaped thinking.

      Face it, the "part of our culture" argument doesn't hold water. Most of what I read in high school is not at all or a very minor part (Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights stand out in my mind). Even that which is a larger part, pales in comparison to other things I can easily think of.

      And Yes, Dickens IS hard to read. I fucking HATED Tale of Two Cities. It was hard to read, irrelivant, and boring. Personally, I find it harder than Shakespeare, but that might be because Shakespeare knew how to write about something worth reading.

      Either way, my point stands. The point of English class is to teach kids English first and foremost. For that you must get them to read and write and to do that you need things they want to read and write about. I'm not saying you can't find a way to expose them to some classic literature, but saying it has to be all classics because of culture is a load of crap. I can design a much better curriculm of more influencial readings than what is normally taught if you want, but I won't claim it will hold their attention any better.

  9. This Is Sad by myc18 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is no surprise that books are "going to the wayside." The problem is largely because of the Internet and television. People are glued to screens/monitors for their source of education and information. I mean take a look at encyclopedias and libraries --since the revolution of the Internet, sales of encyclopedias have skyrocked downwards, and fewer people are visiting libraries. And for good reasons, the WWW is literally a library and it is convenient. Libraries and encyclopedias once spurred reading.

    It is only until now that I realize the value of reading. I am seriosuly pursuing a doctorate in Computer Science, and a critical part of the doctorate program is reading and writing --reading technical journals and lots of papers (on paper). Training yourself to read at a fast pace is vital in order to catch up with your work and to comprehend all the information. The less capable you are reading, forget any chance of being a researcher. Nonetheless, this news is sad.

  10. Re:I read fewer books because by Wumpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's more to reading than sci-fi, you know.

  11. Re:I read fewer books because by slavetrade55 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Have you tried Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin? That and the two subsequent books rocked my socks...this coming from someone who could never get passed the first 100 pages of Eye of the World. I mean come on, "Mountains of Dhoom"? That's just not trying very hard.

  12. Far-Fetched idea - people are busier creating now by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One thought that came to my head is that people are busier creating media now - more photos, lots more video - and thus do not have as much time to read.

    In a way, even posting to Slashdot as indulgent as it seems is another form of creation - I'm sure a lot of people spend a lot of time on forums now that might otherwise be reading. And perhaps the act of a lot of people writing is just as mind-expanding as reading a good book (depends on the forums you are in of course!)

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  13. Re:We should just by daviddennis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's no longer true, at least potentially, now that they give subscribers about a ten minute jump on the articles. As a subscriber, I've actually read a few articles and then waited impatiently to be allowed to post.

    In this case, it's especially ironic since I've read about five links to this article from other sources already.

    Finally,I don't think the free speech ethos of this place is ever going to allow what you suggest to happen -- and rightly so.

    D

  14. Why discard the internet? by NightWulf · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Why must people equate reading and literature to paper books. I spend a good amount of time on the internet for both work and pleasure. I would estimate the amount I must read on my computer would be a novel a week worth of words. Yes I would agree that "IM Speak" and such SMS shorthand may hinder the vocabulary of future employees but my hope is that is just a phase. I just hate being regarded as less intellectual or less well read because I choose not to read a novel on the way home. I read enough on the screen to equal 10 novels.

    In the end, doesn't it do the same thing? Instead of reading sonnets by Shakespeare, people read some girls poems on her webpage, and instead of reading the editiorials from The Times, you read some guys opinions on his blog. If it intrests you and is valid for you, go with it.

  15. Is it so bad? by east+coast · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's also been shown in recent studies that American's are spending less time in front of the TV. Is this all internet time now?

    I consider reading a really good thing. But if these people are spending more time reading on the net maybe it's just as well. It certainly better than TV.

    --
    Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
  16. Do not neglect the rise of "Infotainment" by SetupWeasel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Along with the internet, a separate beast arose: News Entertainment. Between the OJ Simpson trial, the Bill Clinton scandal, and all the rest of the yellow journalism of the 1990 the need for harlequin romances has diminished.

    Here you have things that appear pressing, dramatic, and interesting that also are kind of real as well. Why read fake dirt about fake people when you can have real dirt on a public figure?

    I'm sure the internet has had something to do with the reduced book reading, because everyone who uses the internet reads and writes a hell of a lot more than they used to. That cuts into the desire to "read for fun," as they say. But for my money the rise of programming for every demographic possible and the horrible yellow journalism of today have satisfied our need for fiction.

  17. We have a solution for this... by pschmied · · Score: 2, Informative

    Public libraries are one of the few public institutions we have that break down economic barriers to gaining knowledge.

    Think about that during the next mil levy.

    -Peter

    1. Re:We have a solution for this... by cpt_rhetoric · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but pick the wrong combo of books and you have the feds breakin' down your door. Go Patriot Act!

  18. Re:This just in... by YowzaTheYuzzum · · Score: 2, Funny

    Exactly. We've had proof for years that Americans read fewer books - AOL users.

  19. Not only the Internet by Cyphertube · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While it is interesting to correlate the decline in leisure reading to the rise of the Internet, the reality is that several other technologies have grown in this time period.

    The early 90's were really the booming growth period of video rental. We've also expansion in the areas covered by cable and satellite television, meaning that the average person has access to far more entertainment programming than before. When I had only six channels of free-to-air programming, I was nowhere near as likely to stay glued to the television.

    Add to that the increasing growth of suburban sprawl and the likelihood of a larger commute. For a lot of people, this easily has started to eat and extra hour or two out of their day, and that's not just in the largest metro areas anymore.

    The Internet has contributed, but moreso in being able to be productive from home. Remember back in 1992 when NOBODY in the US had a mobile phone? A few maybe had a car phone. Now they're everywhere, and almost standard issue at work, so you can do more work at home and be reached at all kinds of hours.

    This added stress of the work anywhere, do anything, growing city contributes to the decline of reading anywhere in the world, but impacts the U.S. even more than others because most U.S. cities do not have adequate public transportation. If you take a train or a bus to work, you might be able to do some reading then (I used to read a chapter or two each way in Helsinki), but it's not too likely to happen when driving.

    At any rate, this isn't an Internet-driven change. It's more a 'the man is squeezing every last drop out of us' kind of change.

    --
    Linux - because it doesn't leave that Steve Ballmer aftertaste.
  20. Re:I read fewer books because by Nasarius · · Score: 5, Insightful
    GRRM r0x0r3d my s0x0rz as well. I actually got up to the beginning of book 9 in WoT before finally tossing it. Robert Jordan keeps writing the same dull crap, where every female (except Min) is an annoying bitch.

    Stuff actually happens in A Song of Ice and Fire, and GRRM can tell a damn good story. His characters are believable, deep, and diverse; you'll remember them, unlike in WoT, where you're buried in a mass of minor characters that you're expected to remember if you want to follow the story. I just wish he'd hurry up with book 4.

    --
    LOAD "SIG",8,1
  21. The Internet improves literacy, at least in theory by daviddennis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One thing nobody's pointed out yet (at least that I've noticed) is that people do much more writing now than they used to, thanks to the Internet. The fact that your writing actually has a chance to be read, and to influence people, defintely makes you more likely to write. The threat of grammar nazis makes it more likely that you will want to write correctly, too.

    I know that I write more than ever, and that's A Good Thing from the standpoint of literacy.

    Also, when people go on the Internet, they are almost always reading or writing. And this means literacy is more important than ever, not less.

    Perhaps this is something to applaud. If reading stuff on the Internet is displacing TV watching as entertainment, then that's surely a good thing for reading as an activity.

    D

  22. lol by real_smiff · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "sci fi sucks lately."

    i love the way you went anonymous to say that. you know, /. is probably the one place you don't need to do that :p. proclaim your love of sci-fi loudly from the rooftops. personally, i hate sci-fi. mostly. well, i've never really given it a chance. does Red Dwarf when i was younger count? :p

    to contribute to the topic.. it just occured to me that the only time i really read (other than you know newspapers, mags and TFM*) is when i don't have internet access. i get through several novels a year, on holidays and staying with people w/o net access.. guess i'm pretty sad too huh.

    a good novel often sticks in the mind. my web browsing (which there's so much more of) rarely does. hmm, should take a hint from that.

    *instructions for tech-toys

    --

    This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.

  23. Its official by ScriptMonkey · · Score: 2, Funny

    Its official...

    Books are dying!

  24. Prices are a big reason by ageoffri · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I really think the cost of a book is a big turnoff to a lot of people. What are we up to $7-$9 for a paperback and list price in the low $30's for a hardback? Among my friends there are only two of us who buy books even though just about all of us read a lot.

    The other thing is the baen library is very nice for Science Fiction and Fantasy. I've bought several books after reading a downloaded txt file of the book and then wanting it in a hardback and the rest of a series.

    --
    -- Slashdot, making the Left look conservative since 1997.
  25. Re:I read fewer books because by jridley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Then do what I'm doing. Go back and read the golden age stuff. I'm working on the Med Ship series now, and Doc Smith is always good for a quick couple of hours. A.E. van Voght, Heinlein of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of titles, all great.

    Technology is actually increasing my reading. I don't generally get a chance to carry books around with me, but I always have my palm. With a 512M SD card in there, I not only have about 10 hours of NPR programs to listen to, and a couple hundred photos, I've got about 100 books in there as well.

    Sure, I prefer paper, though the new 320x320 screens are quite good so I don't care that much either way anymore. But I ALWAYS have 100 books on me, usually 2 or 3 of them in progress, and I can read any of them any time I have to wait 5 or 10 minutes for something.

  26. Former Bookworm... by decipher_saint · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First off I'm Canadian and I used to read a lot when I was in my early teens (and I do mean a lot) I would rip through novels and be hungry for more then I'd get into history and politics and then switch back to novels. Through high school and college I was still reading fiction but only a few hours after going to bed, still a good flow of literature, but nothing like before. Once I got working though I found that I really didn't have the time or the juice to read every night, then that turned into every week and now I barely read at all. Personally I think it's sad and I often wonder why I can't get back into the groove. I went through a streak of some really bad (new) books and I started working more overtime and found that I was too fatigued to keep up even a rudimentary interest in reading consistantly.

    Oddly though, I find myself reading a lot of humour content on the web (blogs, articles, etc), but it still doesen't compare to a good book. I guess I have a kind of reader's apathy, I would like to read more, but I never do...

    From time to time it strikes me when I go searching through the cards in my wallet and find my old, expired, Library card and think to myself "oh yeah, I should renew that one day..."

    Anyone else there in Slashdotland feel this way? Did you ever get back into reading on a regular basis (if so HOW)? ;-)

    P.S. The last good book I read was "Goodbye, Mickey Mouse" by Len Deighton written in 1982 which I am convinced the 2001 film "Pearl Harbor" stole it's story from, but whatever...

    --
    crazy dynamite monkey
    1. Re:Former Bookworm... by Magnus+Pym · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You could be describing my life' reading habits! I think there is another reason as to why I don't find fiction entertaining any more; specifically, all the plots are the same! If you have read a few hundred books, you have read them all! There is nothing new in most genres, just re-hashing. Occasionally, a new author comes out with something fresh, but his/her subsequent books are more of the same! For people who are "fact-oriented" as opposed to "process-oriented", this is a showstopper.

      As an example, I put forth P. G. Wodehouse. Wonderful author. But you have to admit that he has a handful of basic plots that he rehashes. You read those books for the "process", for the clever sentence construction and use of language. I have friends who can read the same P. G. Wodehouse book again and again. For me, the fun stops after the first read.

      Magnus.

  27. Reading in my house by phamNewan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My children are required to read for 30 minutes every day. My son that just finished 1st grade is reading Harry Potter now. My daughter will be going into 1st grade and is reading Dr. Suess and equivalent.

    Both of them enjoy reading and may whine a little initially when it is reading time, but then they oftern read longer because they get into it. At least once a week they end up going an hour. During the summer they have lots of time to read, so I have them make the most of it.

    Learing to enjoy reading is an aquired enjoyment, and with all of the other forms of entertainment available people need to be encouraged to learn how to enjoy reading.

    In fact, it is reading time now. See ya.

  28. Define 'reading' by The+Monster · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I suspect that the reading we do on the Internet doesn't count, perhaps because it's so difficult to quantify, but I suspect it's because of an implicit elitist arrogance:
    • PhD's debating sophisticated cultural nuances amongst themselves are 'better' than talk radio/TV
    • Newspapers are 'better' than web pages.
    • Glossy magazines are 'better' than pulps.
    • Hardcover is 'better' than paperback.
    • Hand-crafted illuminated manuscripts, slaved over by monks, that could only be owned by the Church or a wealthy nobleman, were 'better' than Gutenberg's mass-produced works that the bourgeoise could purchase.
    --

    [100% ISO 646 Compliant]
    SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.

    1. Re:Define 'reading' by miu · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What? Oh come on, some things are better than other things.

      You could subsist on a nutritious paste, water, and vitamin supplements. You must some kind of food elitist to care about texture and taste.

      TV Guide, video game reviews, factoids, and political rants are not as good as an actual book written with thought, research and care. Nothing wrong with reading on the Internet, but most (99.99+%) of it is junk food.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    2. Re:Define 'reading' by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 2, Informative

      mass-produced works that the bourgeoise could purchase.

      The bourgeoisie is the evil industrial class that has to be overthrown. I think you mean the proletariat

      Would that mean you didn't actually read Marx? Oh, the irony!

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    3. Re:Define 'reading' by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      PhD's debating sophisticated cultural nuances amongst themselves are 'better' than talk radio/TV

      This should be obvious. One can express many more ideas on one page than one can present in ninety seconds.

      Newspapers are 'better' than web pages.

      It depends on the newspaper. Some are simply a means of regurgitating the AP feed. But even the AP uses editors and fact checkers. Many webpages are written with little regard for honesty and accuracy.

      Glossy magazines are 'better' than pulps.
      Hardcover is 'better' than paperback.


      Most SF is now published in hardcover, before a rerelease in paperback. And glossy paper is no measure of the quality of the magazine. Archival, Acid Free Paper has been adopted by many literary magazines, though.

      Hand-crafted illuminated manuscripts, slaved over by monks, that could only be owned by the Church or a wealthy nobleman, were 'better' than Gutenberg's mass-produced works that the bourgeoise could purchase

      Codex Hammer: 30.8 million
      Rothschild Prayer Book: 8.58 million
      Gutenberg Bible: 5.39 million
      Audubon's Birds of America: 8.8 million
      First Folio: 6.17 million
      source

      The Codex Hammer is in Italian (mirrored Italian, no less.) The Gutenberg Bible is Latin. The First Folio would meet with the NEA's approval, and so would the Audubon book, although the latter is nonfiction. But all those are books that will be kept in vaults, and appreciated from a distance.

      The NEA wants to encourage the development of literature, not merely functional literacy. Some forms of prose can be appreciated on purely aesthetic grounds and not merely because of the facts such forms may convey.

      Slashdot may be fun to read, but very few slashdotters post for the ages, carefully crafting each sentence for maximum effect. Newspapers are often good at telling the reader what happened, but the whys often remain a mystery until a book, collating additional interviews, newspaper accounts and recently declassified archival records, is published years afterwards.

    4. Re:Define 'reading' by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      * Hand-crafted illuminated manuscripts, slaved over by monks, that could only be owned by the Church or a wealthy nobleman, were 'better' than Gutenberg's mass-produced works that the bourgeoise could purchase.

      Well, printing of course make it possible for knowledge to spread more widely, but hand illumnated manuscripts written on parchment were both much more durable and much more beautiful than their printed counterparts. You can't stand in the way of progress, but progress always has its price.

      I have an 1846 Leipzig edition of Dickens Christmas stories (A Christmas Carol, The Chimes etc.), I bought at the old Starr book shop years, and years ago. I don't remember whether it was the one in Boston or the one in Harvard square; they were different book stores run by brothers. The Boston Starr has been gone since the late 70s and the Harvard Square Starr passed on to the next generation and developed a well deserved bad tempered customer service. In any case: is this old book it more valuable than a modern paperback edition? Well, it is undoubtedly more beautiful: it has a fine hand tooled leather spine and unusual and marbled endpapers that are unique as fingerprints. It is certainly a more interesting artifact than a modern paperback. The paper in the book is somewhat brittle and has an old library smell of paste, dust with hints of chocolate.

      I'm not a bibliophile, I'm not particularly sentinmental about books; what matters to me mainly is what is said in them. I picked this book up because it was about the same price as a new book. I doubt it has any value as a rare book. However the reason for this long winded story is that it is that it certainly very interesting as an artifact that has history. It has passed thorugh I don't know how many hands over its hundred and sixty years, been apprasied by different booksellers, rubbed shoulders with other books, been leafed through by who knows how many generations of people. This is incredibly evocative, if you have a feeling for such things. The feeling I get handling it is like the time I handled a human brain in a neuroscience class. It was just a lump of inert, pickled tissue, but once it held the experiences of a lifetime. I remember wondering whether, if we had the knoweldge, we could recover some of those experiences, perhaps of dust motes in a shaft of sunlight, or the voices of the person's parents.

      Imagine what it would be like if science created a single edible substance that supports human nutrtion needs perfectly. It is inexpensive and plentiful, easy to store and transport, satisfies hunger perfecly and when used exclusively it prevents every form of a nutrition related disease from diabetes to obesity. In other words it performs all the bilogical functions of food without being food as we know it. No doubt this would be a huge advance for humanity, but you would lose the culture of preparing food and eating; no more recipes, no more holiday dinners, no dinner dates or midnight snacks. You wouldn't have to be a cook or a gourmand to be profoundly affected.

      The death of physical literature, if it happens, will be for many of use like the elimination of food.

      It's also interesting to consider that even with no special handing ny Leipzig Dickens volume may well be readable in a hundred and forty years when it has its three hundredth birthday, although it will no doubt be extremely fragile. There is NO copy of this information today that is likely to survive as long.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  29. I wish I read more by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 2, Insightful


    I admit that I read only a few novels per year. However, I wish I had time to read more, as some of the brightest humans to have ever lived communicate through novels. The memories I have from video games and TV just don't measure up to those from novels, perhaps because novels engage the imagination to a much greater degree. Oh well, back to reading API specs, on-line news, and source code.

    --
    -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
  30. Re:I read fewer books because by cshark · · Score: 5, Funny

    You're missing the point. This study is obviously biased and funded by Microsoft. You see, a decline in reading paper books, actually helps them sell e-books in ridiculous proprietary formats. Think of the selling point, "no one wants paper anymore, and this proves it, buy our DRM enhanced versions of the classics today!"

    --

    This signature has Super Cow Powers

  31. IMHO by rattler14 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's stems from 3 main reasons

    1) Decline in education stictness / increased dropout rate of schools
    2) Information overload (I mean honestly, I could waste 3 hours a day reading slashdot comments alone, not to mention the 10 different news / info sites I tend to frequent on a daily basis
    3) In america, the work week continues to extend well beyond 40+ hours. Whether it's the student just out of college trying to get a head up in a company... or a family trying to make ends meet... families just planning their lives to 5 minute increments.

    Combine any/all of those, and it's not shocking. Plus, add in TV channels, etc and it's not too shocking.

    --
    my last sig was too controversial... now, a new and improved useless sig!
  32. gutenberg, iblist by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 4, Informative

    This seems like as good a place as any to throw in a plug for Project Gutenberg (old books for free!) and the Internet Booklist (a good place to go if you don't know what to read).

    -jim

  33. libraries and squeaky wheels by Xtifr · · Score: 2, Informative

    My local library doesnt carry any star trek or HGTTG books.

    I won't comment on your choice of reading material, since mine is pretty dubious too. But...have you asked them about it? How are they to know that local people are interested in these books if local people don't ask them about these books? Most librarians would rather carry books that get used and read than books that sit around gathering dust, but won't know what you want unless you tell them.

    Also, most libraries have agreements to share books with other libraries in the area, and you can usually check for books you're interested in through the library computer system. Maybe your local library doesn't have the books you want, but maybe the one in the next town does, and will happily ship them over for you if you just ask.

    1. Re:libraries and squeaky wheels by yo5oy · · Score: 2

      have you forgotten that the government watches what you check out at public libraries? /me adjusts his tinfoil beanie propeller. the other thing i noticed is that libraries are underfunded so don't have as broad a selection as they once did.

      --
      a slut did tulsa
  34. I suppose it's true by Xtifr · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm down to about four cheesy SF novels a week now. Back when I was in school (late seventies), it was more like ten. That's a pretty sharp decline, I suppose. :)

  35. Re:I read fewer books because by geekoid · · Score: 2, Funny

    9 books? You're not very smart, are you?

    little joke....

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  36. Reading TFM... by superflytnt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...and other techical books of the sort. Where exactly would I fit in reading a book for pleasure.

  37. There are probably several reasons for this by tuxlove · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Seems pretty obvious to me:

    1. People are stupider. The education system in the US is rotting, and kids that can barely read and write are "graduating".
    2. Video games are amazing. If I were a kid now, I might never emerge from the computer room. When I was a kid, games like pong were cool but couldn't hold your attention forever.
    3. The web is here. There is a lot of stuff to read online, there's a lot of porn to surf, lots of music, software and movies to pirate, and a lot of chat to be chatted.
    4. There are 150 TV channels now instead of 13.
    5. Blockbuster and friends have an endless supply of DVDs to watch.


    Add your list here ->
  38. PIAA? by LuxFX · · Score: 4, Funny

    So now is somebody going to tell us there is a PIAA (Publishing Industry Association of America) that is going to start suing big anonymous blocks of IP addresses, under the assertion that rampant online piracy is to blame for a large drop in book sales?

    --
    Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
  39. television is the opium of the masses by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 4, Insightful
    That said, I believe television to be much more dangerous to the attention span than anything else.

    And the 30-second TV advertisement the most dangerous of all. When I went to college, I would go a good part of the year without watching any TV at all. When I did watch a show, I was appalled by the idiocy of the commercials -- how did I ever accept them as a normal aspect of daily entertainment? They teach people to accept simple emotional appeals instead of complex logical arguments, and tend to encourage vices (buy stuff you don't need with money you don't have, convince yourself you deserve a higher standard of living than the people around you) instead of virtues (solve your own problems, be happy with what you have).

    Digression: short attention spans are a threat to society because they cause people to be intellectually lazy and assume that the world is simpler than it really is. Then they make poor decisions based on their incomplete understanding.

    I try to avoid TV now, but I keep having the misfortune of living with someone who can't live without it.

    TV is also disruptive to anyone within earshot who wants to do something else (like read a book). I wonder how often people are drawn to the tube because someone else insists on watching something and they say to themselves "oh well, as long as its on, I might as well watch because I can't concentrate on anything else."

    -jim

    1. Re:television is the opium of the masses by abulafia · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I agree with most of what you said. My experiences, exactly. Just a personal difference...

      TV is also disruptive to anyone within earshot who wants to do something else (like read a book).

      I actually don't have this problem. Tonight, for instance, the toob was on, my housemates watching it, me in the same room, and I had no problem with my book (I'm re-reading The Prince. It has been a while, and I haven't read the Adams translation before).
      The reason for me writing this is that I think people are wired differently for dealing with background noise - I live in Brooklyn, and have spent all of my adult life in large cities. I grew up in extremely rural areas, and went nuts - I was constantly bored and edgy. In a city, I feel at home. I think it has to do with background stimulus. When my mother comes to visit, she goes nuts - there's too much noise (that I never conciously notice), too many people, too much going on.

      A high tolerance for others' background radiation allows me to read a book with the TV on, code when people are talking, and sleep on the subway. (Although sometimes there are exceptions... the meth head who just moved in above me will soon learn to eat his techno CDs... I can only deal with thumpa-thumpa-diva-shriek for about 14 hours out of the day.)

      No real point, just highlighting what seems to me to be an interesting differentiator in people.

      --
      I forget what 8 was for.
    2. Re:television is the opium of the masses by Josh+Booth · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I used to be able to do that, but I unfortunately taught myself to be aware of what's going on. I remember in sixth grade reading a book (I don't remember what, probably the nonfiction I read a lot), finishing it, and looking up, totally disoriented as to what the class was doing. I started to become more social and taught myself to look up every once in a while, breaking my concentration. Eventually, I'll teach myself to concentrate like that again. Maybe living in the city for a while during college like you will help.

  40. I read fewer books - but I listen to more... by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Like most slashbots, I read a great deal on the internet, and I read a larger number of books than the populace at large.

    However, I have started to actually absorb more information while reading less. This slashdot article discusses timeshifting, and using timeshifting I "read" a great deal more.

    www.audible.com is an incredible service - and I now listen to two books a month from them. I listen while driving to and from work, I also listen when at the gym or jogging. As a result, I am able to get through more books (and exercise!) than I otherwise normally would. So do I read less? Perhaps - but I am absorbing more.

    Blatant plug: www.audible.com is the only site I have ever seen that actually justifies (in its own way) DRM files that I would say are worth paying for. If you like it, and sign up, say "chumkil" reccomended you. (I told you this was a blatant plug! :)

    --
    Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
  41. As a bookstore owner by britneys+9th+husband · · Score: 3, Funny

    My business faces ruin. Book sales have dropped through the floor. People aren't buying half as many books as they did just a year ago. Revenue is down and costs are up. My store has survived for years, but I now face the prospect of bankruptcy. Every day I ask myself why this is happening.

    I bought the store about 12 years ago. It was one of those boutique bookstores that sell obscure, independent releases that no-one reads, not even the people that buy them. I decided that to grow the business I'd need to aim for a different demographic, the family market. My store specialised in family reading - stuff that the whole family could read together. I don't sell sick stuff like Stephen King or trashy romance novels, and I'm proud to have one of the most extensive Christian sections that I know of.

    The business strategy worked. People flocked to my store, knowing that they (and their children) could safely purchase books without profanity or violent scenes. Over the years I expanded the business and took on more clean-cut and friendly employees. It took hard work and long hours but I had achieved my dream - owning a profitable business that I had built with my own hands, from the ground up. But now, this dream is turning into a nightmare.

    Every day, fewer and fewer customers enter my store to buy fewer and fewer books. Why is no one buying books? Are people not interested in literature? Do people prefer to watch TV, see films, listen to music? I don't know. But there is one, inescapable truth - Slashdot use is mostly to blame. The statistics speak for themselves - one in three hours spent reading is spent on Slashdot. On Slashdot, you can find and download hundreds of dollars worth of reading material in just minutes. It has the potential to destroy the publishing industry, from authors, to publishers to stores like my own. Before you point to the supposed "economic downturn", I'll note that the movie rental store just across from my store is doing great business. Unlike text, it's harder to get video clips posted to Slashdot.

    A week ago, an unpleasant experience with Slashdot junkies gave me an idea. In my store, I overheard a teenage patron talking to his friend.

    "Dude, I'm going to go home and post a comment to Slashdot right away."

    "Yeah, dude, that's really lete [sic], you'll get lots of respect."

    I was fuming. So they were out to destroy the publishing industry from right under my nose? Fat chance. When they came to the counter to make their purchase, I grabbed the little shit by his shirt. "So...you're going to go home and post to Slashdot, punk?" I asked him in my best Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry voice.

    "Uh y-yeh." He mumbled, shocked.

    "That's it. What's your name? You're blacklisted. Now take yourself and your little bitch friend out of my store - and don't come back." I barked. Cravenly, they complied and scampered off.

    So that's my idea - a national blacklist of Slashdot readers. If somebody cannot obey the basic rules of society, then they should be excluded from society. If Slashdotters want to steal from the publishing industry, then the publishing industry should exclude them. It's that simple. One strike, and you're out - no reputable bookstore will allow you to buy another book. If the Slashdotters can't buy the books to begin with, then they will become illiterate, and they won't be able to post to Slashdot, will they? It's no different to doctors blacklisting drug dealers from buying prescription medicine.

    I have just written a letter to the publishing industry outlining my proposal. Suing Slashdotters one by one isn't going far enough. Not to mention Slashdotters use the fact that they're being sued to unfairly portray themselves as victims. A national register of Slashdotters would make the problem far easier to deal with. People would be encouraged to give the names of suspected Slashdotters to a hotline, similar to TIPS. Once we know the size of the problem, the police and other law enforcement agencies will be force

    --
    Hear recorded Slashdot headlines on your phone! New service beta testing. Just call (248) 434-5508
  42. Nothing like a good book by DarkMantle · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I saw many comments posted that I would like to touch on

    The article isn't about reading in general, it's about reading fiction, and poetry, not technical manuals and news (on or off line.) So it's not about the literacy (as one poster seemed to think.

    Also movies can not possibly contain all the content of a well written book, take The Lord Of the Rings for example, if all the content of the books was included in the movies we'd be waiting for parts 4-9 to come out still.

    Reading is not made to be interesting any more in schools, required reading includes books that no one wants to read anymore, and the school describes them as "Literary classics" and to kids classics = old, and un interesting.

    So in conclusion, reading can still be fun, we just have to have our schools upgrade the required reading, perhaps some Douglas Adams (may he rest in peace) or Terry Pratchett. Or allow students to pick books (not magazine articles) to read. But some required reading that should include the classics are...

    There are others that I would recommend, however their titles slip my mind at the moment.

    --
    DarkMantle I been bored, so I started a blog.
  43. BIAA blaims 'book swapping services' by WoodstockJeff · · Score: 2, Funny
    In related news, The Book Industry Association of America (BIAA) filed suit against 2,000 of the most blatent book swapping sites. Officials of the Chicago Public Library declined to comment, after being named in the suit.

    New York Public Library spokesperson Larry "two-fingers" Benito would only say that they had contacted "our people who deal with this sort of thing", and that he "expected a swift and satisfying outcome" to the suit.

  44. The Novel has Competition by DavidD_CA · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure there's plenty of reasons why people aren't reading as much fiction, and a lot of that probably has to do with the Internet or modern technology.

    But, I don't think we're reading less.

    Think of how much other stuff there is available to read now, too. Novels have competition, and it's not just movies. It's blogs, RSS feeds, and zines.

    --
    -David
  45. Re:I download books by jtev · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Baen is realy nice to, if you like Military SF and fantasy. They have a nice free library, and none of their e-books are DRM encumbered. Once you've burned through the free library the non-gratis e-books aren't that expensive either, and still not DRM encumbered. You may also want to check out Project Gutenberg for some older fiction.

    --
    That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
  46. Re:I read fewer books because by zors · · Score: 2, Informative

    absolutely agree on the heinlein, just got 4 of his books after reading stranger in a strange land, and i'm just floored by some of it. I especially reccomend his short stories collection "The Green Hills of Earth." While he gets alot wrong, he gets a surprising amount right, given when he wrote it (late forties early fifties) Reading this stuff makes me see why people thought after the moon landing that moon colonies were coming. "Job: A comedy of justice" is quite good as well, though i dont think it really belongs in sci-fi, reminded me of Neil Gaiman's "american gods" alot actually. just about to start starship troopers, (mostly so i can be intellectual and condescending when i talk about the movie;) ) though i'm looking forward to that and "The moon is a Harsh Mistress."

    One thing that really catches my attention about his forties and fifties sci-fi are his views on workers rights, safety and fair contracts and such, in space and how reminescent of earlier booming industries were, like sailing or the industrial revolution and whatnot. Its not that he agrees with these things, its like they're just facts of life to him, whereas i couldnt imagine it happening today. And this got me to thinking about how hung up on safety our society is, and whether or not that prevents us from developing as far as we can. Or maybe this is more because of the economics of going to space are radically different from the burgeoning industries of the past, and we cant afford to let men waste their lives in pursuit of their dreams, rather than any humanitarian desires. After all, in one story heinlein puts the earth-moon rates at 30 bucks to a lb, granted 30 bucks might just have meant more to him than to me.

    To keep this from getting modded off topic to hell, i'll add my two cents on the internet/computing vs. reading scenario. i've noticed i tend to shift between gaming and reading cycles, usually dependent of availability of new titles in either case. So maybe its just that the book has more competition for our time, especially in fantast and sci-fi, now that there is no longer only one way to inhabit our fantasy worlds. Though its definitely wishful thinking that this is the only reason, i think its definitely a contributing factor.

  47. Heinlein's subtle predictions by mec · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some of Heinlein's predictions sneak in as part of the detail.

    Heinlein wrote about US troops in southeast asia in 1963 (Glory Road). And in Citizen of the Galaxy, one of the characters takes a tube transport under the bay. Hey, I've taken BART under the Bay ... but BART opened in 1971/1972, and Citizen of the Galaxy was published in 1957!

    The book I always wanted Heinlein to write: a completely non-SF book about Ira Johnson's adventures in his youth.

  48. BOOKS=$$$$ by Archfeld · · Score: 2, Interesting

    used to spend 20-40 a week and read lots, now spend the same 20-40 a week and get 2 to 4 books if I am lucky. Maybe it is just me but books WENT THRU THE ROOF, and the remarkets, with new covers and titles, makes life more difficult. I spend more and more time getting old masters, Geo.O Smith, PK Dick, Norton and Carter just to name a few. I refuse to pay for a hardback anymore, they are just over-priced paperbacks with no life span, and CURSE the trade paper back fad as well :(
    I do like a lot of the new comic-style work the net has made possible...RedvsBlue Rocks :)

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
  49. Farenheit 451 by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This article reminds me of a very scary thing I heard from a friend many years ago:

    Me: "I really liked the book Farenheight 451. Especially the description of how the world got that way. The censorship didn't come from the leaders - it came from the masses. They wanted everyone to be as vacuous as they were, so they started pushing their leaders to outlaw various intellectual things."

    Him: "Wow. That's kind of deep. Who wrote it?"

    Me: "Bradbury". You should see the film version too - it's done fairly well.

    Him: "Oh, there's a movie of it ? I think I'll just save time and watch that. Reading the book takes too much time..."

    Me: "uhh. that's pretty funny - good one.:

    Him: "What? What did I say that was funny?"

    Me: "Oh...never mind."

    --

    Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  50. Re:What you forget by chromatic · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I wonder why exactly that is?

    It's easier to waste a few aggregate hours of a thousand faceless people than a few seconds of your own life.

  51. Americans read fewer important books by Stalyn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Americans read of course... but they read garbage. Self-help books and tv guides. Basically the only reading that actually creates an active and critical mind is barely covered in high school. Then maybe a few required courses on the classics in college. Active reading of nonfiction and literature does not permeate in American culture. Sure you have book clubs etc... but thats the vast minority.

    Just take a look at the NYTimes Bestseller list.

    Its filled with pulp fiction about nothing meaningful, self-help books on how to make money, how to lose weight (yet we are still fat) and just plain out crap. Most of the nonfiction books are about fiction books (da vinci code anyone).

    What if us Americans were deeply involved with John Rawls, Plato, Locke, Marx, Chomsky, Zinn, Derrida, Heidegger, Mohammend, Mark, Paul, Lao Tzu, Samjaya, Nagarjuna, Wittgenstein, Shakespeare, Heinlein, etc.... I guess we'd be a population of smart people.

    --
    The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
  52. Schools are Genre Biased by Mazem · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of the biggest problems with school reading requirements is that they are weighted against a lot of valid genres, and thereby give students a false idea of what books can be like.

    Where's the Sci-Fi? Where's the Fantasy? Where's the Mystery? Where's the adventure? Where's the comedy? These can all be just as thought-provoking genre's to read. Heck, some of the most insightful (and hillarious) things I've ever read were written Dave Barry.

    Schools like to claim that they teach the "classics", but in reality they only teach classics that students wouldn't want to read anyways.

    Where's Asimov? Where's 1984? Wheres LOTR? Where's Sherlock Holmes? Where's A Confederacy of Dunces? Where's The Third Man? Where's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance? These are all classics in their own right, and yet are not taught because they are not in the "approved" genres.

    Why pound into youth's skulls that books are dull, and are associated with essays and tests? Fostering lifetime readers from a young age is more important than forcing kids to read "the classics".

  53. Have you been to the bookstore lately? by beforewisdom · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Have you been to your local corporate bookstore lately( ie Barnes & Noble, Borders... )?

    They resemble the multiplexes.

    Steep prices for what was originally a cheap venue.

    Just as Hollywood ony has about 4 different movies that they recycle into "new" movies every season so it seems with these bookstores.

    You see many of the "same" books reappearing again and again.

    Steve

    Steve

  54. Who has the time? by Pedrito · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I finally started reading Neuromancer recently, but I just can't seem to get it in gear. I'm trying to fit it in between Latin, Italian, wood working, working out, dating, and a full time job.

    Really, given the choice between reading a novel or trying to conquer another language, at least right now, I'll take the language.

  55. actually by ShadowRage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I dont think this has much to do with the internet.

    Actually, I blame parenting, I read books whenever one interests me, I used to read them all the time to pass the time.

    Thing is... My parents read to me. and that got me into reading, see, most kids, their parents will pump them out after 9 months and for 6 months give them some attention, then eventually grow tired of them, let someone else take care of them, and when they get old enough, sit them in front of the TV and let the TV raise them, then they wonder why their kids end up in trouble when they're in their teens.

    There are seniors at my highschool that cant read past the first grade level. and if they do read past that, they mispronounce so many words. it's really sad, namely because the TV and media and money has raised them, their parents either dont give a fuck, dont know english themselves (I live in a mexican immigrant predominant area)
    or are bad parents in general.

    I think the only reason I'm not as fucked up and illiterate as half the kids my age is because my parents used to read to me, and when I was in kindergarten, I could understand letters and words better because of that.

    Reading is more important than you think.

    Of course, this is also America, where most children's parents (both of them) have to work to make end's meat (yes, this is in the world's so-called biggest economy) so most parents dont have the time, though both of my parents worked, they actually took time out to parent us, not get home from work, sit back and watch TV, eat, bitch at the kids for wanting love and attention and going to bed. Like I have seen at some households.

    I just think the internet era coincides with this.
    Yes, it is true I stopped reading books since I started into computers, needless to say, most books I found interesting I've already read and I'm not impressed with most books that come out today. If I see or hear about a book I find interesting, I'll read it.

    What disturbs me the most about this survey is that it sounds like it's leading up to "HEY! no one reads books anymore, say, we can take them off your hands, we'll burn them and return the ashes to the earth, where they belong, then we'll resell them in digital format, a much more reliable, and economically friendly format! The Constitution is looking pretty old as well, it needs to be re-written in digital format and to today's standards!"

    I so wouldnt be shocked if that ever happened eventually.

    Looking at society's ways, Ray Bradbury's book, Farenheit 451 was pretty damn close to the truth.

  56. Suburbanites read fewer books by CrazyTalk · · Score: 3, Insightful
    In the city, people are always reading - primarily on busses and subways, it seems. You cannot read in your car, which tends to limit the reading habits of suburbanites. More people are living in the suburbs now than 50 or even 20 years ago, ergo less people are reading. Time is in shorter supply for everyone, which adds to the trend.

    Obviously an over simplification, but just one observation that may help to explain the trend.

  57. Re:I read fewer books because by Obfiscator · · Score: 2, Interesting
    G.R.R. Martin is one of my favourite authors of the genre. Another good one is Stephen Erikson. It's a bit darker, and a bit too gory at times, but I think he has better characters and a more complex/intriguing plot than Jordan does in the WoT series.

    Book Three, "Memories of Ice," is the first one I read in the series and my favourite. The major problem I have is that most of his books are out of print, which makes them harder to find and more expensive when you do (the library only had the third book, which is where I initially read it).

    --
    "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." -Indiana Jones
  58. Re:I read fewer books because by Daetrin · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'll throw in my two cents as well. Besides George R. R. Martin and Robin Hobb (who was mentioned later in the thread) i'd also suggest taking a look at Jane Lindskold (who does good urban fantasy,) Kate Elliott, Sara Douglass (somewhat generic, but some orginality too, and strong female characters,) Guy Gavriel Kay (OTHER than for his "Fionovar Tapestry" trilogy, which was generic shlock,) and Steven Brust. And to promote a couple lesser known authors who are just getting started, but i think have some promise, Naomi Kritzer and Joanne Bertin.

    If we move on into science fiction, there's S.M. Stirling, James Alan Gardner, Vernor Vinger, (who as just posted on slashdot, is coming out with a new book soon) Sheri S. Tepper (if you don't mind a strong feminist slant in your fiction) and Steven Barnes.

    I'm sure there are more out there, quite possibly even on my bookshelves, but that's what i can remember at the moment.

    --
    This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  59. Ooops! by Daetrin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Vinge. Vernor Vinge. I know how to spell it, my fingers must have slipped or something. And yes i previewed, but somehow missed that =P

    As long as i'm posting again however, I'll add Jude Fisher, another new author whose first book (fantasy) took me a little bit to get into but was strongly and amusingly reminiscent of Shakespeare when i did so. (Midsummer Nights Dream i think, or whichever one where everyone ends up romantically entagled with the wrong person.)

    Also Paula Volsky, who does quasi-historical fantasy, and Michael Flynn and Stephen Baxter for SF. And just for completeness' sake, there's also Joan D. Vinge (Vernor Vinge's ex-wife, but a good author in her on right. I'm curious if they met because of their writing, or if one of them picked it up from the other after their marriage.)

    --
    This Space Intentionally Left Blank