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Is Dell Just Testing the Market?
sarig_magik asks: "It seems that Dell is testing the Linux desktop market worldwide, and their choice of desktop is Linspire 4.51. I wonder how Microsoft will view Dell, now? Could this be a real attempt to gain a foothold before any of the other distributors do? We know the hardware vendor, but can anyone comment on the choice of OS?" Although Dell is offering a system with a preloaded Linux Desktop, they aren't doing it here in the US, but through their Italian partner, Questar. While the choice of Linspire as a desktop may leave a few of you underwhelmed, this does seem to be a step in the right direction. Is Dell testing the market? Of course they are. How well do you think they will do?
Like it or not, MS still has a strong hold on the corporate enviroment. While I think it's a good thing that Dell is going this route, it'll only have marginally decent results.
Dell (IMO) is a good manufacturer for the "average" computer, and the brand recognition is quite high. I think Linspire is a good choice for a pre-installed distro. Most Linux geeks (who would prefer, say, Gentoo or Debian or whatever) would want to install it themselves anyway. Linspire is a good "first-time" distro, or so I've heard. The people who need the OS to be installed when they buy the computer will like what Linspire has to offer.
I think Linspire is too unknown/controversial.
If I was buying a new linux distro, I would go with Either Redhat (known and trusted) or Suse (rising star) not some recently name changed article
IMHO of course
'By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes'
Also remember the legal trouble Linspire had when it was Lindows.
Yes, the new option is different. What I see is not so much "testing" but something being there and then disappearing, and then something different being there and disappearing. I'm not going to count on Dell supporting any particular distro, but I think that it is nice to be able to buy a machine without a Microsoft tax.
Because it comes with the Linux distro pre-installed, is the computer $99 less because it hasn't paid the 'microsoft tax'?
its a good marketing move to sell to people who don't want to buy / have Windows XP.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
or maybe in this case I should say penguin *rim shot*
Anywho, there is probably no way Dell could survive if it invoked the ire of Microsoft and MS refused to sell them licenses(or at least reduced cost ones). However, I think that Dell is pretty confident that MS will not do this unless they REALLY want the anti-monopolists breathing down their neck...
Maybe then the DOJ could do it's job
Presumably, this is more of a test run to work through operational issues (providing Linux support, drivers, etc.). Look for a more serious effort in a year or so. And don't forget Sun, aren't they pushing a Linux desktop now, too?
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
... wrong news.
Signatures are for stupids.
I thought Dell said they had nothing to do with the VAR that was loading Linspire and selling the PCs in Europe other than selling them machines?
Story Here
"I'm a karate man. Karate mans bleed on the inside."
If they every decide to install new hardware they might. Although I have no idea how often the average Dell consumer actually upgrades their machine instead of just waiting to buy a new one?
The writeup may be a little misleading; Dell isn't the entity behind installing Linspire on these machines, it's Questar:
A PC dealer in Europe has begun selling Dell desktops equipped with Linux, but Dell emphasized that the systems were customized by the dealer and that this isn't the first time this has happened.
That article can be read here at Cnet.
When you're not looking, this sig is in Latin.
I worked for Dell from '98 to early '00. During that time they went from "testing the waters" to fairly comitted (with an "apliance" that came in two flavors: Linux and Netware). Then sort of back to testing the waters.
Now its '04 and they are testing the waters.
I think that it would be better to say that they are perpetually ready to "go Linux" if and when it makes sense, but MS still pretty much has them by the short hairs.
-Peter
Dell is not using Linspire. That is completely the doing of their reseller, and Dell has distanced themselves from Linspire.
See the article at C|Net from last week on the matter
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
According to this, Questar is just a reseller, not a partner. From the article:
Questar is simply buying Optiplex 170L desktops from Dell as might any other business or individual customer. Is there any thing more to their "agreement" than that? No, Dell told The Register today: "Questar is a direct Dell customer and that is the extent of the relationship."
I thought Dell distanced themselves from this last week, claiming that third parties can load whatever OS they want onto their hardware.
This WOULD be news if Dell was offering Linux support along their Windows support, but a third party that buys a Dimension/Optiplex and sells it with Linux really isn't ground breaking news.
[ Monday is a terrible way to spend one seventh of your life. ]
Anyway, to answer the submitters question: Dell doesn't sit around trying software until they find something they like and want to ship. Partners come to them and pitch deals to them. If Dell (or their hardware partner) is going with Lindows it's because Michael Robertson made them a deal they couldn't refuse. It's that simple.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
1) Dell is friend with Microsoft ...but make sure they use a really lame, unsecure distro (everyone is root!)
2) Microsoft has some serious security issues
3) Microsoft has no clear "target" to say, "hey Linux too has security issues"
4) Microsoft ask Dell to start shipping Linux
5)
6) Microsoft steathly release an exploit/virus/whatever that target Dell's Linux machines
7) voila! Bingo! Next on CNN, "Linux is target of a mass viral infection! Microsoft has the solution!"
8) A page show up on microsoft.com talking about how Linux is bad, etc...
Really, it makes sense...
OK, I'll put back my foil hat now. Kthxbye.
Dell still do offer a RedHat solution here in the UK, but, only for the server market. You cannot get Linux on a desktop, however, they have recently started shipping desktops with FreeDOS, so you don't HAVE to buy Windows
I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
You can buy the machines without os (or rather, the DrDOS OS) from their website.
r e. aspx/desktops_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd)
/., instructions on how to buy Dells.
Dell.com | Small business | Destop | N-series Desktop
(http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compa
I have bought some, and they work great.
PS: I never though I would be posting, on
"Piter, too, is dead."
whats so great/new about this. You can get OS-less PowerEdge 400SC starting around $250(with instant and send-in rebates).
I switched from Windows to Linspire and it is a good change for me. It works like Windows, but it seems to have a lot more features than Windows did.
I lost a lot though. No more unannounced updates by M$. No more virii attacks. No more trojans that take over my computer and trash my workday.
I am a writer, so I used Office, plus I used Photoshop and ran a website, cut CDs for my music, etc. - all the standard stuff most people use.
Linspire had a matching free app for all that I do, and it came loaded with the distro, which was a painless install. I could even access all my old data files.
I would never go back again, and why should I have to? All my documents are compatible with M$ files and the clients I work with cannot tell the difference. I can. I have a lot more free time since I don't continually have to muck with my computer because of Windows!
Linspire is my first encounter with Linux. I hear it isn't even the best version, but I am completely happy with it.
Roger Born
writing.borngraphics.com
I don't get any of this. Dell's been offering Linux on its servers and Precision Workstations for about three years, partnered with RedHat. Some time ago in the US they created an "N series" line which shipped with no OS, with Linux as an option. Dell has employed developers to work on improving Linux's stability and compatibility. Dell has been very good about Linux in general, even having agents for its Open Manage software that run on Red Hat.
Admittedly they don't heavily advertise what is really a niche product, but they have http://www.dell.com/linux plus a page that is dedicated to these alternative OS desktops; Their support pages typically have several variation of Linux listed for downloading drivers, etc.
Seriously, how much Linux support do you want from them? Are you waiting for the Dell guy to announce "Dude, you're getting a Gentoo Dell!"
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
It seemed obvious that something was wrong with this story the first time it was discussed on /. because there were no links to Dell.
u estar/
The Register confirms that this move has little to do with Dell:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/07/dell_vs_q
- Brian.
They need to get back on track and help contribute to that 1 billion windows installs. We'll never make that 2010 deadline if they keep this shit up....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
That's because you were a windows user before.
Now imagine someone who has never had a computer. (6 billion people minus 600 million computers still leaves 5.4 billion people (and that's not taking into account the fact that many americans/europeans use one at work and one at home))
Is that person going to be OK with linspire?
What if there were 600 million linspire users out there? you know, in the same vein as "there are 40 million AOL users out there".
"Piter, too, is dead."
I'd like to know how many /. users have acutally used Linspire/Lindows. It seems to me that there is a large negative cloud that follows this distribution but the cloud isn't substantiated by actual use. The main negative issue that seems to always come up is the "runs as root" issue. Well, that's been resolved. When you first log in, you can choose to create a user other than root. Plus, look at the bigger picture. Linspire is designed with the END USER in mind. Not your typical linux user who likes to re-install their system frequently or likes to wrestle with dependencies when installing applications. I've been using Linspire since last November. It hasn't been perfect but I'll tell you, it's been the best linux distro I've ever used. The combination of a Dell system and an easy-to-use DESKTOP linux distribution is win-win. Heck, any PC being sold with linux preloaded is a win for the open source community. Remember, it's not a competition between linux distros, it's a competition between Linux, MacOS, and MS Windows.
Loop 1
1. Microsoft selected which OEM makers would be allowed steep discounts on its bundled software for about the last decade.
2. This pruned the small, Mom & Pop OEMs, speeding up the process of a few bigger industry members becoming dominant.
3. Even though Microsoft generally did business with all the remaining larger OEMs, raising the threshold startup costs for new competitors entering the market made the competition one limited to the existing ones, which helped trigger and speed up the OEM shakedown that has left Dell in a dominant position.
4. Dell, being number 1, becomes powerful enough to push back at Microsoft, at least a little.
5. Micosoft profits fall as they have to cut a better deal with Dell.
Loop 2
1. Microsoft delays production of Longhorn and other software repeatedly.
2. Newer, faster computers not needed to run newer, bigger programs.
3. Industy wide OEM sales become sluggish, Dell doesn't have the profit margin to push very hard at Microsoft, but Microsoft can't afford to gouge Dell with the whole industry tepid.
4. If Microsoft succeeds in selling bigger, shinyier software that raises OEM sales numbers, Dell gains more power to break away. If Microsoft fails, Dell sales become flat, with no margin to be shaved off to increase MS profits.
Who is John Cabal?
I think the first big vendor[1] to properly commit to shipping Linux-based systems has the opportunity to make a killing.
Anyone can sell a cheap x86 box (Windows or Linux) to Joe Sixpack.
The first big vendor that offers a complete Linux system can really rack up the profits. By system I mean modem, networking, scanner and printer. The vendor would be in a position to (somewhat) honestly claim "if you don't buy from us, good luck getting it to work." Reinvest the MS-tax in Crossover Office, so they can advertise compatibility with Office, Photoshop, etc[2].
[1] Big == national, with an advertising budget to reach non-geeks.
[2] Having Office compatibility makes switching to Linux easier to swallow for Joe Sixpack -- even if he never uses it.
1.) Dell is bound by liscense agreements with Microsoft to ship consumer PC's with a copy of Windows installed. (notice I said consumer PC's)
2.) Dell does ship servers with linux pre-installed to businesses. So, there's no contractual requirement forcing Dell to ship a machine to a business with Windows.
3.) Dell will ship desktop machines to businesses with FreeDOS installed (they call it the no-OS option). This re-enforces the statement in 2.
4.) Questar is buying white-boxes with the no-OS option, and intalling Linspire itself. Questar then ships these to consumers. This is a work-around for case 1.
5.) Dell is testing the waters in Europe. Once they've got the bugs worked out, they'll start shipping machines, under another name, with Linux pre-installed, within the U.S.
There's nothing to prevent a mom and pop shop from buying white-boxes from Dell today and doing what Questar is doing, inside the U.S. Maybe this is what Dell wants. It's a win-win. They sell machines (albiet not Dell branded) and consumers get machines with Linux pre-installed.
I fear Lindows, because it's basic installation is 'run as root' in order to simplify things. IMHO this is no better than Win9X or WinNT with the first/prime user set up as Admin, and perhaps worse because new Lindows users will be even more ignorant that they were on Windows. They will be more susceptible to human-engineering attacks because they'll have less experience, and because they think they're getting better security just by moving away from Windows.
IMHO, Lindows should have set up root and a default user, and a bunch of sudo gui programs to admin the box. The default user should have been a random name, with the installation option to change to a user-chosen name. Then use the autologin feature of gdm/kdm/xdm so the system boots to a ready-to-just-use state.
Next thought... Include something like pam_usb hooked into the sudo, and include a USB memory key. The installation process sets up the key, and then you plug it in to administer the box. Make the user aware that the key IS the security, and not to leave it just plugged in. Possibly even limit the admin that can be done while the network is up. Include a sticky hook so it can be stored on the system.
Does Linspire run users as root?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Competition reduces cost - economics 101.
Or is it just a bundle with a zero priced OS. Thanks to the BSA, shipping an OS with a PC is mandatory in some parts of the world.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
The fact that Dell is supporting any linux distribution is what's significant here.
By supporting linux as the OS as a vendor, you automatically guarantee hardware support for at least one distribution.
It should be noted that Questar is loading Linux on these Dell "white boxes". Dell has nothing to do with this decision. FWIW, Dell offers a "white box" service to mom&pop shops that don't want to build their own PCs. Once you become a distributor, you simply roll your own packages and sell the PC as your own brand. Questar is simply a white box distributor.
ANYONE can go out and do this. It doesn't mean that Dell has anything to do with selling Linux. This is secondary.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
From a Business point of view, the Giants (IBM, Sun, Dell) seem to be sharpening their teeth to get ready to provide Linux Desktop solutions for big corporations and Government departments worldwide. IBM and Sun have actually been doing it, and actually deploying solutions, and Novell just jumped in. Intel IS lagging behind IMHO. Not that I care :-)
I find it interesting dell will try an obscure distro of linux but they still won't come out with any PC with arguably superior AMD cpu's. It's not so radical- after all HP also offers AMD
Join Team Mozilla #38050 Folding@home
Dell is a major PC manufacturer, so by 'offering' Linux as an 'alternative' they could be leaning on Microsoft for some sort of better deal, perhaps a slight lessening of the cost for each copy of Windows they buy? We all know in this day and age 'Cost is King' and every dollar they save will likely help them save loads of new computers.
http://michfilmfestival.com
http://a2tech.us
Does Linspire still have the default root login thing I heard so much about? How's their security compared to other distros?
Pretty much the same could be said of any computing system - including acknowledged crap like MVS. Nobody claims that the mainframe o/s like MVS are ideal any more, but ten years ago there were still people arround who had never used anything else and thought that the MVS way of doing things was perfect.
Linux is essentially architected the same way a modern mainframe O/S are architected. You have a reasonable user interface that is connected to a terrible one via pushrods. All the work gets done by the cruft underneath, which does not matter much most of the time, but when something goes wrong you have to start fiddling with the engine.
Windows has a unitary design that is much closer to the way a car is designed, in windows the UI is the O/S, there is no underlying layer, most users never look at the registry, let alone start editing it.
From a pure architecture perspective the Windows approach is the right one, there is much less to go wrong. With Linux you have two places where things can go wrong, the O/S itself or the pushrods holding up the UI. This means it is much more likely something would go wrong, but if something does go wrong you have a lot more visibility into the problem and it is more likely that you can fix it - if you know what you are doing.
The last part is the kicker as far as being a real new computer user goes. It is very easy to learn UNIX if you have a large support community who can get you out of trouble, if you are at university or whatever. If you don't have that support structure you are not going to do UNIX for very long if there is an alternative.
Back in the early 90s the incentive for learning UNIX was that you could buy two SUN sparcstations for less than the cost of a slower VMS box. So it was worth putting up with the poor documentation and user interface. Today I just don't see the incentive, even though Linux is a major advance on SunOS or ULTRIX, the improvement there is nothing like the improvement of Windows over VMS.
Despite the claims made about OSS and innovation the fact is that in the last ten years the OSS movement has not done much more than write a copy of a 1970s O/S and layer on a 1980s window system.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Linux is essentially architected the same way a modern mainframe O/S are architected. You have a reasonable user interface that is connected to a terrible one via pushrods.
That is the biggest pile of misunderstanding and innaccuracy I've heard this week.
Do you have some crazy notion that graphical applications on Linux all manipulate commandline equivalents behind the scenes? That's just not the case. A graphical application on Linux is pushing all the same buttons and manipulating all the same data behind the scenes as the windows version, just with different APIs. There's no fundamental difference between the way a database application, a spreadsheet, or a word processor works between the two systems, and there's certainly no "work getting done by cruft underneath".
Perhaps you were only speaking of configuration? Well guess what. For the most part you're still wrong. Interface and application configuration differs between the two only in encapsulation and storage methods. Arguably, both methods have advantages, but neither of them are really "cruft".
From a pure architecture perspective the Windows approach is the right one, there is much less to go wrong.
Once again, bullshit. In fact there's so much *more* that can go wrong, since the registry model allows for the possiblilty of corruption of all system configuration data through one rogue application, and the essential lack of separation between administrative permissions and the default user in most installations allows for endless and easy methods of destroying your system... either by accident or through the introduction of malicious code.
but if something does go wrong you have a lot more visibility into the problem and it is more likely that you can fix it - if you know what you are doing.
Now you're just being funny... That was sarcasm, right? You have visibility into how windows works behind the scenes? There's detailed logs? You can debug individual components independant of the whole system? You can look at the source to see what's going on, were you so inclined?
I'd go on, but I've fed the trolls enough today.
Vastly more interesting to me would be if a major vendor started shipping all their computers with Mozilla based browser and e-mail, and OpenOffice as an alternative to the very expensive Microsoft Office. Get people used to using the open tools, then the next time you sell a computer you can sell an open OS.