Slashdot Mirror


On the Supercomputer Technology Crisis

scoobrs writes "Experts claim America has been eating our 'supercomputer feed corn' by developing clusters rather than new supercomputer processors and interconnects. Forbes says America is playing catch-up and that the new federal budget items are too little too late. Cray is laying people off due to decreased federal spending and claims lower margin products have forced them to create products based on commodity parts. Red Storm, one of their new Linux-based products, is being delayed to next year."

86 of 347 comments (clear)

  1. it makes sense by dncsky1530 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    when you can build a top 5 supercomputer for under 6 million dollars, using off the shelf parts. Why spend the hundreds of millions of dollars?

    1. Re:it makes sense by Otter · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you RTFA, an administration panel on high-end computing claims that clusters are inappropriate for certain tasks. I don't necessarily trust the claims of what I assume is an industry-heavy panel, but then I don't necessarily trust the supercomputing expertise of a bunch of Lunix fanboys "administering a network" in their parents' basement either.

      My inclination is to let the market sort itself out, although if supercomputer makers go under, they won't necessarily reappear the moment they're needed.

    2. Re:it makes sense by TedCheshireAcad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It all depends on what you need the computer to do. If it's a special purpose machine for, let's say, primality testing for large Mersenne numbers, then standard x86 or PowerPC CPUs would be a waste of money. You'd want a bunch of chips that just do FFT, and do it quickly.

      Take for example Deep Crack (luminaries, remember that one?). Perfect example of specialized hardware for a single job.

      Although, you are probably right in that most of todays supercomputing needs can be met by clustering together off-the-shelf equipment. Although some of the heavy lifting (like solving giant systems of partial differential equations numerically, for, say, weather modelling) could be done faster with specialized hardware, it's probably more cost-effective just to but a thousand PowerMac G5's and rack them up.

    3. Re:it makes sense by gUmbi · · Score: 2, Interesting


      when you can build a top 5 supercomputer for under 6 million dollars, using off the shelf parts. Why spend the hundreds of millions of dollars?


      Because instead of fundamentally advancing the science of computing, the industry is simply scaling commodity technology. The American supercomputer industry has gone from innovator to an assembly operation.

      We're in need of a paradigm shift. Where's the next Seymour Cray?

      Jason.

    4. Re:it makes sense by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, I don't have that kind of money, but if I did, I'd rather get me an older Cray than a cluster of beige-box PCs. If nothing else, Cray machines are classy and impressive, and when we make clients visit the premises, we can go "oh, and this is the Cray computer, crunching at numbers for you" and look at the customer being impressed, as opposed to "oh yeah, that pile of nondescript computer, that's the 1000-node beowulf cluster of AMD Cheaperon computers". I'm sure the extra value in marketting would be worth it...

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    5. Re:it makes sense by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then trust the fact that not all problems are easily attacked from a parallel perspective. This means problems where working on one section of the dataset affects large amounts of data in other sections. There's a lot of locking and waiting for tasks in other parts of the system to be completed; and a lot of data transfer/need for shared memory, which if you're bussing between cluster components, its going to be slow.

      This doesn't mean that clusters don't have some use in these regards, it just means that for these types of problems no one has figured out an efficient parallel algorithm to use on them.

    6. Re:it makes sense by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And there's absolutely no reason why you can't put a bunch of FFT chips on a specialized PCI card, mass produce it, and get a bunch of networked FFT enhanced supercomputers.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    7. Re:it makes sense by ch-chuck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      because, sometimes you need two strong oxen instead of 10240 chicken.

      --
      try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    8. Re:it makes sense by DAldredge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is why you write an app that looks pretty and shows the state of the system on several large flat panel monitors that are flush with the wall. Just make sure you program in several 'test' modes that really look cool so you can 'test' while the VIP's are around.

      Not that I have ever done anything like that :->

    9. Re:it makes sense by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'll agree that it sounds like an industry heavy panel; furthermore, it sounds like a supercomputer-industry-heavy panel. Furthermore, it sounds like a *nostalgic* supercomputer industry heavy panel. What else could explain lines such as " In contrast, classic supercomputers that rely on very fast, specially designed vector processors "could be programmed in Fortran," Scarafino said. "They could be programmed in a language that mere mortals . . . could program in." ?

      Yes, there are tasks where supercomputers are needed. Most tasks are not among these. If there is a single parallelizable task in a CPU-intensive process, odds are that a cluster is your best bet. For example, even if your core algorithm requires intensive memory locking and must be done in a completely serial manner, if you are going to be running that core algorithm over a range of possible inputs, a cluster will probably be your best choice.

      --
      "You abandoned me! You abandoned my hatred!" "I... I have cuttlefish..."
    10. Re:it makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Partial differential equations are NOT necessarily highly parallelisable. Linear ones, maybe. But the interesting ones that simulate Da Bombs are all nonlinear elliptic P.D.E.s.

    11. Re:it makes sense by grawk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As someone who works for a supercomping center, I can say that some things work VERY well on cheap unix based clusters. I am the primary admin on a 5 TFLOP cluster. We've also got a Cray X1, and while it's only 2.6 TFLOPs, it will eat my IBM's lunch when it comes to some specificly tuned tasks. Much in the same way that we can outperform mac clusters that have significantly higher floating point performance because of the speeds of the interconnects. Supercomputing is about a LOT more than just raw CPU power.

    12. Re:it makes sense by fitten · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Clusters (talking about "Beowulf" types and such using stuff like Ethernet, no matter the speed) do OK at coarse grained problems. That is, problems where communication is seldom and typically when it happens, is a chunk of data like a WU or something where the consuming node can go off and compute on it a while then submit some result or intermediate result. All of the "Distributed" projects like SETI are of this type and are even a subclass of coarse grained problems called Embarassingly Parallel.

      Fine grained problems typically require much more inter-node communication and are also typically much more sensitive to latency. Fine grained problems typically show lots of communication and (not always, but typically) smaller amounts of data transferred. For example, take a problem where each node will sum up an array of 16 integers passed to it and pass this (partial) sum back to the sender for it to use in its calculations. On 100Mb Ethernet, the latency of the transfer of that 16 bytes is *huge* compared to the full transfer time (overhead of packet size and slowness of the actual transfer) and the computational time for adding 16 integers together. A "Beowulf" cluster would be ill suited to this type of problem simply because Ethernet at those scales is extremely inefficient. However, there are architectures (some SuperComputers) that could do this algorithm quite well.

      Another example of this is to think about a kernel (maybe a Linux one) that is multiprocessor. How well would a shared image Linux kernel perform if it were using Ethernet as its interconnect between nodes as opposed to shared memory on a dual/multi CPU motherboard? This is one reason why SGI, Cray, Sun, IBM, and others have developed NUMA architectures - basically the bus between processors is really a switched network that is extremely high bandwidth (GB/s) and extremely low latency (measured in microseconds at worst) in order to run single system images - in order to scale the number of CPUs up in a box that can work on the same problem in parallel.

      So, parallel programs are written with a mind to the algorithms being used to solve the problem and the hardware on which it will run. For example, there are a number of algorithms for solving systems of equations in parallel. Different algorithms may be more latency critical than others (some may not be penalized by high latency networks such as Ethernet as others which require more communications). Not all problems have multiple "good" algorithmic solutions where the programmer can pick based on the hardware available. Some problems do not have "good" algorithmic solutions that are latency tollerant at all. Those algorithms/problems need low latency networks to solve and typically, the only solutions are super computers and very "special"/exotic networks (read: expensive) are the ones that supply very low latency interconnects - Myrinet, Giganet, RACE, etc.

    13. Re:it makes sense by thue · · Score: 2, Informative

      Take for example Deep Crack (luminaries, remember that one?). Perfect example of specialized hardware for a single job.

      Wikipedia has an article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Crack

    14. Re:it makes sense by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2, Informative

      A few extra people? Do these few extra people get their own supercomputers?

      The problem with clusters is that they don't scale well in all cases. Programming tricks may help, but profiling and testing on a sub cluster may not reveal bottlenecks in the full cluster.

    15. Re:it makes sense by Rostin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Computational fluid dynamics. The most common manifestation of this would be weather models, although it can also be used to model petroleum resevoirs, airplane wings, and the list goes on and on. The system is broken up into little chunks. What's going on in each little chunk depends on what goes on in all the the other chunks. And we are talking about millions and millions of chunks.

    16. Re:it makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      General Relativity is nonlinear; you cannot use superposition to calculate the field of each object at a point and simply add up the results like you can with Newtonian gravity.

    17. Re:it makes sense by randomwalker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even if the application can not be parallelized, my experience working in these environments is that most times the same group needs to run the same application many times with different parameters. Putting the application on slower machines, but running different cases simultaneously also favors clusters.

      Its very rare the high margin items ever maintain or increase their high margins. Anyone writing/using large resource intensive applications needs to plan for these type of things. crays are wonderful machines but if there is a better solution people should go with it.

      Its also interesting to note that mainframes are still high margin and profitable for IBM. All the comptetion went away and lots of legacy code out there.

    18. Re:it makes sense by CoolGuySteve · · Score: 2, Informative

      A lot of posters in this article decry commodity hardware for sucking but they're not considering the long term. The tasks commonly performed by commodity hardware are starting to be more and more suited to scientific applications. We can already see how vector optimizations like Altivec and SIMD have worked their way into every desktop chip around.

      As 3D rendering and sophisticated media codecs are becoming the primary reasons for upgrading a home PC, the front side bus and CPU (especially the CPU) have gained a disproportianate speed advantage compared to the rest of the PC. And when you start throwing in high speed network compenents like blade interconnects and 10Gig E, you can create an extremely powerful, scalable computer. Vendors like IBM love this because it means they can sell one design to everyone, just changing the number and specs of the nodes to fit their customer.

      Speaking as someone who worked support on a large academic cluster where thriftiness is king, not only is the hardware cheaper, but it's mundane specs mean it's less likely to fail, when it does, the nodes are replaceable like lightbulbs, and you can run down to the local computer store in the event of a faulty IDE drive or memory stick. The support costs and reliablility are far superior to typical high performance solutions because support can mostly be done in house by existing staff.

      And that ComputerWorld article is mostly bunk, OpenMP supports Fortran. The people who are writing large scale simulations in the first place are not only technical but also extremely bright. While it is a hassle, adding networking to the already heavy code optimization that they do is not that big of a deal.

      Though there are problems that require a shared memory system, $2 million can buy so many more networked Xeons than shared memory SGI processors that the scientists in question should really consider their needs. While it may take much longer, their problem set can be much, much larger since they'll have more collective RAM and HD space. The system can also easily be partitioned, rebuilt, and shared in such a way that it's always in use by one or several people. In many cases, the tradeoff is worth it. And even then, shared memory systems will probably still have a lower price/performance ratio compared to clustering a smaller number of high memory database servers. Say for example, a group of Itaniums with 64Gig of ram each vs their SGI Origin equivalent in terms of memory footprint.

      I think as time goes on, interconnect speed will increase to the point where clusters are very similar to traditional supercomputers. We can already see baby steps in this direction with blade equipment and various motherboards with gigabit NICs built into their own bus to avoid choking in PCI land. Infiniband and 10G over copper are the first major steps but switching and motherboards still have to catch up it seems. Instead of whining, the typical supercomputing vendors should be looking into merging standardizing their designs with those of clustered systems. Of course, I could see how the entrenched traditional vendors would want to legislate as much as possible to avoid having to compete with dozens of smaller engineering companies with less overhead and better ideas.

      Now that I think of it, a lot of the posts I've read here are probably skeptical of massively parallel machines because they don't realize that the performance is all in the network. I've seen two clusters first hand with an identical number of identical nodes. One was being used as a compute farm where several hundred dual Xeons were attached to a rediculously large and overly expensive IBM foundry switch. The other was being used as a massively parrallel simulation machine, with dual gigabit nics attached to a bunch of 'cheap' 24 port switches in a 2D mesh. The second design cost much less because it wasn't built by IBM while still being about twice as fast.

    19. Re:it makes sense by The+Conductor · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, it really is true. With non-linear PDE's the parallelization falls apart. You say, "ok smarty-pants, when modeling the copressible fluid around a car (ie, the air), how much can the flow around the bumper depend on the flow arond the mirror?" The answer is not much, but when you discretize the problem into a fine mesh, there are a gazillion boundary points between the mirror region and the bumper region, so the communication links between parallel processors bog down. It is faster to solve all the points with the same, really fast, processor.

    20. Re:it makes sense by kscguru · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Or you can sit down and throw some linear algebra at the problem, and come up with a formula for successive fibanacci numbers that ISN'T dependent on the previous numbers. Hint: it's a geometric series, with the slight catch that you have to use complex numbers (embedded in 2x2 matrices) instead of scalars, and thus is slightly more difficult to solve (it takes about a chalkboard of math because it can only be solved in the eigenbasis). A Fibonacci problem can be solved with a better algorithm :-).

      The difficult large-scale problems have "chunky" parallel solutions - each chunk is parallel, but some chunks take longer than others (it's difficult to know how long beforehand) and the overhead of scheduling and balancing all those chunks begins to dominate the actual computation. Combining large, arbitrary, sparse matricies would do it - some multiplications will result in very little work, while some will have lots of collisions and require a lot of work.

      --

      A witty [sig] proves nothing. --Voltaire

  2. Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by beee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is an expected and predicted fallout from the recent rise in popularity of beowulf clusters. Slowly but surely managers are realizing, yes, it is possible to have a supercomputer on mass-market hardware, running a free OS.

    Don't see this as bad news... it's a sign that we're winning.

    --


    + Donald Gunth
    + Email: dgunth@quicktek.net
    "Caffeine is the greatest lubricant ever created." -ESR
    1. Re:Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by Cromac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree, it's definately good news. Our tax dollars can be much better spent on other things than buying a Cray when the same level of performance can be had for much less by building a cluster.

    2. Re:Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by captain_craptacular · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you RTFA you'll find out that "the same level of performance" CAN NOT be had by building a cluster. Clusters only help when a problem is easily paralelized, meaning it can be broken into many small parts which can easily be handled by their own low power processor. Other problems (many modeling applications) do not fit this description and require specialized hardware which can take a large, complex problem and deal with it in one massive chunk... A cluster will choke on these problems just like your workstation with the same processor would.

      --
      They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
    3. Re:Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by susano_otter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Since clusters are so much cheaper than mainframes, it's often the case that clusters still offer better performance for the money spent than a mainframe would, even if the cluster isn't really optimized the way the mainframe is, for the task at hand.

      That being the case, wouldn't it make more sense to invest heavily in R&D to solve the cluster's problems and remove its limitations, than to invest heavily in R&D into next-gen mainframes?

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    4. Re:Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by weiyuent · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is an expected and predicted fallout from the recent rise in popularity of beowulf clusters. Slowly but surely managers are realizing, yes, it is possible to have a supercomputer on mass-market hardware, running a free OS.

      Don't see this as bad news... it's a sign that we're winning.


      Not necessarily. There are plenty of computational problems that, so far, do not lend themselves well to parallelized solutons.

      The point of this post and the linked article is that the hype about Beowulf and similar cheap, cluster-based technology has caused mainstream technologists to overlook the need for traditional supercomputers like the Crays.

      That indeed is bad news and a sign that computer science in general, while not necessarily losing, is not winning.

    5. Re:Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by Aadain2001 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then let the people who have those problems pay for the hardware to solve those problems. For the people who are doing parallised work, clusters make perfect sense. I think the big guys (Cray) are just unhappy to see that most of their business is going away because their hardware isn't needed as much since people are figuring out how to use clusters to get the jobs done.

      --
      Space for rent, inquire within
    6. Re:Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by demachina · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

      The problem with the big investments in supercomputing by the U.S. government in the last decade is that they've been time after time to put one huge white elephant system after another in one national lab after another. Some problems:

      - They take a long time to build from first RFP, to contract award to first delivery till they are fully deployed. By the time they are done they are usually starting to look long of tooth and the lab starts the whole process all over again.

      - I don't know what their exact work load is but WAY to much money has been spent in the U.S. on simulating nuclear bombs. That is a computing work load with NO ECONOMIC benefit. It has a security benefit only if somebody decides to use one of the bloody things someday and that wont be a good day. I wager the Bush administration is using them to design new tactical nukes to bust bunkers and caves but if the U.S. starts using those as a matter of routine that will also be a bad day. Way to many of them are going in to the NSA to spy on communication. It occassionally has security benefit but it ain't worth it when traded against the invastion of privacy of everyone.

      - The classification of these systems no doubt discourages their application for anything economically useful

      - The same cast of characters line up to bid on them. Its just high tech pork for IBM, HP, Intel, SGI etc. They get to build leading edge one off systems that keep architects and chip designers entertained but again they are extremely poor in economic value.

      If super computing is going to survive they need to do the same thing 3D graphics did, it used to be overpriced too. They need to design single chips that have:

      - Really fast vector units and good scalar units
      - Huge memory bandwidth (with supporting cache and memory systems)

      They need to drive up volume by making these chips as accessible as possible to auto manufacturers, oil and gas exploration, chemistry etc. When they get the volume up, reliability up, ease of use up and price down they might sustain a viable market though I'm still not sure there really is one. Someone also needs to fund applications and visualization that turn them in to breakthrough technology that leads to huge advances in a range of technology fields.

      Of course this is kind of SGI's business model and they, for whatever reason, can't make it work either.

      I could see the U.S. government, in concert with private industry, putting seed money in to developing:

      - very fast vector units in commodity processors
      - Adapting GPU's to supercomputing apps
      - Very large/fast cache/memory and driving down cost so everyone benefits
      - Very fast I/O and driving down cost so everyone benefits
      - Breakthrough applications applying the above

      But if instead:

      - government just keeps putting out contracts for another teraflop machine to be squandered in a national lab simulating nuclear bombs screw the whole damn concept

      - If IBM, Cray, SGI, HP etc. are just looking for government handouts to help them build toys that are cool but no one else really wants to pay for, again screw the whole concept.

      The cool thing about Japan's premier supercomputing facility is its dedicated to climate and weather simulation so it has a purpose.

      If you want to have a viable supercomputing industry you need to identify applications that make it worth while and figure out how to best develop hardware to meet a need. The apps most likely to matter are ones that lead to breakthroughs in their respective industries especially basic science and R&D but the U.S. is pathetic at basic research these days which is another reason there is no demand for supercomputers. They don't factor in well on the quarterly profits.

      Just saying you need to keep handing out hundreds of millions of dollars to the same old crowd to keep doing what we've always done, whether it works or not, is a pretty dubious way to spend money (though so was squandering $200 billion on Iraq).

      --
      @de_machina
    7. Re:Expected fallout from the Beowulf takeover by forkazoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A cluster has poor latency and bandwidth compared to moving data register to register on a CPU. Big fast CPU's have lots of local bandwidth. Clusters have less. How in frack's sake do you expect to "Fix" that? It is the inherent distinction of a cluster. Separate boxes, with IO connecting them can never be faster at comms than the CPU itself. a 486 has more on chip bandwidth and better latency than Gig-ethernet. Sure, it only has 8 registers... Not a huge range of problems that it can solve entirely on-chip... :)

  3. Inevitable by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What most people don't seem to understand is that you don't need a supercomputer when a mesh of nodes on a network will do just as well. Just like most people don't understand that a 386 running Linux and Word Perfect 5.1 is just as good of a word processor as a 2.5Ghz Itanium running Windows and Word. Computer power has *usefull* limits as well as technological limits.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    1. Re:Inevitable by mfago · · Score: 4, Informative

      a mesh of nodes on a network will do just as well

      In some cases.

      Unfortunately, some problems are particularly unsuitable for clusters of commercial computers, and really benefit from specialized architectures such as shared memory or vector processors.

      A while ago it was decided by the US government to essentially abandon such specializations, and buy COTS. It is certainly cheaper, but not necessarily effective.

    2. Re:Inevitable by fitten · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes... but it depends on the overhead required for those almost-independent pieces to be transferred from one machine to another. There are lots of fine grained problems out there where All the computers in the world tied together with Ethernet couldn't solve as fast as one good supercomputer.

      Basically it boils down to:

      Compute the cost for communication of one work unit for your algorithm.
      Compute the cost for processing that work unit.

      If the cost for communication is significant compared to the computaional cost (say, 1%) then you probably will have a performance issue.

      This is why SETI and the like do well. The cost of communication of one WU is insignificant/irrelevant compared to the computational cost of one WU.

      However, there are a good number of problems that can't (or at least haven't yet) had algorithms thought out where the cost of the communication of one WU over a high latency interconnect like Ethernet is useful given the amount of computation of that one WU. I assure you, if it were easy to make those problems embarassingly parallel like SETI, someone would have done it already and if you can figure even some of them out, you'd be very wealthy. If you could figure out a way to do it all automatically and do it well, you'd be rich beyond the dreams of avarice!

    3. Re:Inevitable by Performer+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No the government didn't abandon these. Infact the government is one of the few remaining purchasers of this type of hardware. It just so happens that a lot of problems including the governments are solved by clusters.

      It could be argued that at least *some* of the ASCI (Advanced SuperComputing Initiative) computers had specialized architectures with loads of bandwidth & low latency interconnect (in their day).

      It's a bit of a joke complaining about a lack of vector computing when every Intel and AMD CPU sold today has floating point vector instruction set extensions with very interesting operators.

      I'd argue that if you take those lamented early 90s supercomputers there's not a problem they can solve faster that a relatively small contemporary cluster or even a single desktop system. A standard 4 CPU single PC desktop system with the right architecture could also spank those legacy systems in memory bandwidth, shocking but true. It just didn't keep pace with the scale and cost reduction of small systems & clusters.

      The real problem here is *relative* performance of supercomputers and commodity components, but as it takes hundreds of millions if not billions to develop a new competitive CPU & architecture and manufacture it, scientists pockets aren't deep enough to pay for those costs (and thank goodness because it's our tax dollars). It is rather pathetic to lament that supercomputers have been outpaced by clusters. The economics make it impossible for supercomputers sold in low numbers to keep pace. Or more reasonably stated, the economics of consumer PC systems makes powerful computing ubiquitous and affordable to the point where it no longer makes economic sense to pursue specialized processors and architectures to try to outperform them.

      If anything is to be done it would be to increase the bandwidth and reduce the latency of cluster interconnect, and guess what, that's EXACTLY what smart people are working on right now.

      As for eating America's seed corn, it is Intel and AMD that sell most CPUs used in clusters today. It is that competition and the pressure of increased development costs that makes custom hardware untennable.

      It is just false to imply that supercomputing technologies fed lower end development. It is a romantic vision of trickledown technology but it is not actually how technological development works. Look at computer graphics, since the commodity PC graphics cards beat big iron from SGI there has been more innovation and development in graphics hardware, not less. There is competition and a willingness to experiment with new features. The same is true with CPUs from Intel and AMD and the architectures and innovations in memory bandwidth they constantly drive forward.

  4. Law of Diminishing Returns by Billobob · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It appears to me as if we have reached the point where supercomputers aren't really as practical as they were before. Fewer and fewer industries need and prefer supercomputers to a cluster of cheap PCs, and the market is simply heading in that direction - nothing really unique happening here other than capitalism.

    Of course people are going to cry that companies like Cray are falling by the wayside, but the truth is that their services simply aren't as needed as they were in years past.

    --
    If you have to ask, you'll never know.
    1. Re:Law of Diminishing Returns by susano_otter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I suppose the counter-argument would go something like this:

      It's true that supercomputers aren't really all that useful or necessary these days. However, it may be that a future computing problem shall arise, which requires a next-generation supercomputer to solve. So we'd be well-served to have a next-generation supercomputer fresh from R&D, to apply to the problem.

      We may only encounter one or two more supercomputer-class problems, but they might be important ones. We should be prepared.

      On the other hand, we may encounter a problem that can only be solved by horses. But we don't see a lot of buggy-whip subsidies these days...

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

  5. "Feed' Corn? by jmckinney · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think that should have been "Seed Corn."

    1. Re:"Feed' Corn? by jmckinney · · Score: 3, Informative

      Offtopic, my left testicle. You're SUPPOSED to eat feed corn. You save seed corn to plant.

  6. Expert complains: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Free market sucess might lead to us actually having to pay for our own supercomputer research that we use in profit making ventures.

  7. I Need A RAIS by grunt107 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Random Array of Inexpensive Servers.

    If the 'supercomputers' of today are increasing performance, does it really matter the design?

    Maybe that is a signal that monolithic computer tasks are best handled in a hive mentality - have the Queen issue the big orders, have the warriors performing security, have the workers transporting the goodies (data), and have the requisite extra daughters and suitors to grow the hive and assure its viability (redundancy).

    The fact that it is cost-effective is even better.

  8. It's bad news for Cray by Louis+Savain · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't see this as bad news... it's a sign that we're winning.

    Right. The Cray folks have just realized that they are about to go the way of buggy whip and the slide rule. They don't like it one bit. They can only complain by making a lot of noise. But it won't work. When you're extinct, there is no coming back.

    1. Re:It's bad news for Cray by DarkMan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Uh, Cray have a backlog of orders. A backlog to the tune of $153 million, if I recall correctly.

      That's not the sign of a dying buisness model. If they are having problems, it's down to the mangement, not lack of demand.

      There are problems that don't work well on clusters, but rocket on a proper supercomputer. These include a lot of interesting areas, there will always be demand for a few pieces of big iron. At the risk of echoing the ghost of IBM CEO's past, I think somewhere around 20-30 serious top end supercomputers in the world [0]. Most of the rest of the jobs will do just fine on high end clusters.

      If you read the article, there are no quotes from Cray people. What there are quotes from is the people who used to get to play with special hardware, who now admin those clusters.

      It's toys for the boys, not a buggy whip issue.

      [0] That's informed by being someone who uses high perfromance computing, both cluster and supercomputer.

  9. A lost metaphor brings out my inner language nazi by peacefinder · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's seed corn. Seed, as in, what you don't eat, but save to plant next year.

    Kids these days.

    --
    With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
  10. Re:Isn't this good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Clusters are not good for very chattery parallel processes, a shared memory supercomputer can still do much better for computational fluid dynamics.

  11. You are all missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Its the fact that clusters require higher skill to program efficiently for than do single processor systems. Plus you have all of the wasted processing power used for communication between the nodes. Granted, many problems lend themselves well to distributed computing (essentially what a cluster is, but the nodes are closer and communicate faster), but there are also problems that are handled better by a smaller amount of specialized hardware. The other point is that by using off the shelf parts, we are not really innovating in this space like we should be. We are allowing the commodity computer market determine the direction of the supercomputer market.

  12. Software vs hardware by xenocide2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of my professors (everybody has one of these it seems) is working on cluster computing research, extensions of MOSIX. He's a guy with networking and operating systems expertise. I wouldn't hire him to build a new generation of super computing interconnects or processors. As the Republicans have taught us, federal budgets are not a zero sum game. Why divert focus from one to the other when we could have both?

    We have to be careful about measuring these things however. One of the goals of cluster computing was to lower the cost of computing. If the government is spending less and still meeting needs, thats not nessecarily an indicator of a problem. If that means that we aren't writing code to fit into a vector platform, so be it!

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  13. There is no crisis by 0x0d0a · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Cray has been engaging in scare tactics about "America being dominated by overseas competitors" for a while, because they're terrified of losing the lucrative business contracts from government and big business, they'll pull out all the stops. They've come up in the IT press recently a couple of times.

    Screw 'em. If there's a need, the market will provide. If it turns out that the important tasks can be parallelized and run on much less expensive clusters, then all that means is that we have a more efficient solution to the problem.

  14. Pork Barrel, not Feed Corn by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It isn't "feed corn" that's disappearing, it's the old Cold War-style Paranoia Pork Barrel. Companies that used to lap up obscene amounts of funding for exotic hardware now have to go face to face with fast and cheap clustered COTS hardware. 25+ years of commodity-scale engineering, in the case of commecial microprocessors, has vastly outstripped the achievements of specialty supercomputer technology by the metrics of bang for the buck and constancy of improvement through time.

    Poor little babies, now where will their executives and boardmembers get free money? Will they actually have to do something useful for a living, and for a change? It seems we are only a Darwinian capitalist economy when the little guy gets fucked. When the professional bullshitters at the top get it, it becomes some sort of strategic crisis that requires immediate injections of billions of dollars. Screw them. May Cray rest in peace.

    La Supercomputadora is Dead! Viva la Supercomputadora!

  15. The classic supercomputer is the modern desktop by iabervon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you really want a vector-processor supercomputer you can program in Fortran, get yourself a G5 and gcc. The PPC64 supports SIMD vector processing. For that matter, any problem which benefits from vector processing is trivial to parallelize with threads.

    1. Re:The classic supercomputer is the modern desktop by Shinobi · · Score: 3, Informative

      One, Altivec only supports single-precision floats. Big no-no in quite a few scientific areas. Also, to be blunt: GCC sucks. If you want something decent, at least use IBM's compiler.

    2. Re:The classic supercomputer is the modern desktop by oudzeeman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "get yourself a G5"

      I just got myself 512 G5 Processors : )

      http://www.clusters.umaine.edu/
      http://www.clusters.umaine.edu/gallery/xserve

  16. Catchup == lawsuits? by FerretFrottage · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In the age of IP and patents it seems like it is very hard for companies to make major advances [in any field] without some other company cry foul and taking that company to court over patent/IP rights, especially if the alleged infringer is a smaller company (i.e. less lawyers). IBM and MS, among others, are filing dozen if not hundreds of patents a day. What we are seeing as an affect is that innovation is being stifled by litigation.

    (pat pending)

    --
    "Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
  17. Trickle Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Technology first developed on the high end slowly works it's way down into the low end. What happens when the high end is no longer there.

    Not that many people really need a race care, but advances in fuels, materials, engineering in race cars eventually leads to bette passenger car. And for raw performsnce, strapping together a bunch of Festivas will not get you the same as an Indy racer.

  18. Without a market you can't survive long term by wintermute42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There seems to be some historical revisionism going on regarding the demise of the "supercomputer industry". People are coming out of the woodwork now saying that lack of government support caused the great supercomputer die off.

    As Eugene Brooks predicted in his paper Attack of the Killer Micros, the supercomputer dieoff was caused by the increasing performance of microprocessor based systems. Many of us now own what used to be called supercomputers (e.g., 3GHz Pentinum processors, capable of hundreds of megaFLOPs).

    The problem with supercomputers is that high performance codes must be specially designed for the supercomputer. This is very expensive. As people were able to fill their needs with high performance microprocessors they quit buying supercomputers.

    Many people who need supercomputer levels of performance for specialized applications (e.g., rendering Finding Nemo or The Lord of the Rings) are able to use walls of processors or clusters.

    There are, of course, groups where putting together off-the-shelf supercomputers will not suffice. But these groups are few and far between. As far as I can tell they consist of the government and a few corporations doing complex simulations. The problem is that this is not much of a market. Even if the government funds computer and interconnect architectural research, there does not seem to be a market to sustain the fruits of this research.

    In the heyday of supercomputers there were those who argued that when cheap supercomptuers were available the market would develop. The problem is, again, programming. High performance supercomputer codes tend to be specialized for the architecture. Also, no supercomputer architecture is equally efficient for all applications. It is difficult to build a supercompter that is good at doing fluid flow calculations for Boeing and VLSI netlist simulation for Intel (the first applications tends to be SIMD, the second, MIMD). The end result of these problems tends to suppress any emerging supercomptuer market.

    The reality right now seems to be that those who are doing massive computation must build specialized systems and throw a lot of talent into developing specialized codes.

  19. And if they really want it... by sterno · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If there truly is a demand for those kind of processors, then somebody will likely meet that demand. Right now, it seems that actual demand is so low that they have to drum up this legislation a as a sort of wellfare for vector processor manufacturers.

    It's a simple cost tradeoff. If you can save millions in purchasing computers, it means more money to pay for people to run those computers and do the real work.

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
  20. What tasks require high-speed interconnects? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Insightful
    One of the nice things about clusters is that they encourage people to consider how to decompose a problem so that it can work without a large high-speed shared data memory. Some of the older supercomputers were important because scientists hadn't done this work because there wasn't the economic incentive back then. Now there is one.

    So, what tasks still require a high-speed shared data memory? Answer that, and you'll understand where you can still sell a supercomputer.

    Bruce

    1. Re:What tasks require high-speed interconnects? by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 2, Funny

      So, what tasks still require a high-speed shared data memory?

      A high-speed shared memory test program?

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    2. Re:What tasks require high-speed interconnects? by Soong · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How about high resolution physical simulation (whether that be climate modeling or plasmas)? One great thing of a Supercomputer is that you can hold so much data at once in the active set. One node can only hold so much data, so the full simulation has to be distributed across the whole supercomputer. It is definitely not RC5 keys, the opposing end of the spectrum in this data/compute tradeoff.

      --
      Start Running Better Polls
    3. Re:What tasks require high-speed interconnects? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Good answer, Anonymous.

      A long time ago, at Pixar, I got an ARPA grant to work on an image-processing application for the feature film industry. The purpose of the grant was economic and military at the same time. I was to help create a market for multiprocessor computers (not really supercomputers) so that there would be U.S. manufacturers of them if when/if the Army needed them for military purposes. This is what often gets called corporate welfare, although I could see the defense purpose was valid. I don't know if ARPA still does this sort of grant. To do one would require an application that is interesting to more than just the folks on your list. And these days visual effects is much more of a solved problem.

      Thanks

      Bruce

  21. Former Cray Folks Move On by lofi-rev · · Score: 2, Informative

    And do interesting things. And try to keep in touch.

  22. About time... by 14erCleaner · · Score: 4, Informative
    The surprising thing about this is that there are still companies making big-iron vector supercomputers. I worked in this industry from about 1980 to 1995, and when I left it was dying already. Even then, the majority of scientific computer users would rather have their own mini or microcomputer than get a small share of some behemoth Cray mainframe. It provided them more flexibility, and if they can use it 24 hours per day it also was more effective.

    For things like weather forecasting, maybe big vector machines still have an edge, but I suspect that's changing as the weather guys get more experience in using machines with large numbers of micros. This seems to have already occurred, in fact; NCAR appears to have mostly IBM RS6000 and SGI computers these days, with nary a Cray in sight.

    The most common term I used to hear in the early 90's was Killer Micros; I think the term dates back David Bailey in the 80's sometime. If you want more evidence that the death of the supercomputer has been going on for a long time, check out The Dead Supercomputer Society, which lists dozens of failed companies and projects over the years; this page was apparently last updated 6 years ago!

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
  23. No, YOU are actually missing the point. by CatOne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Granted, it is more difficult to program something (from the ground up) that runs distributed, than it is to program something that runs on a giant 2048-way box.

    Just like it's more difficult to write multithreaded code than it is to write single-threaded code.

    That's where software, and platforms come in. There is a TON of research being done, which uses technologies like Infiniband and Myrinet as interconnects, and can make a cluster "look" like a big monolithic machine. If you as an end user write code that goes down into the TCP stack itself, you're working too hard, and you're going about it the wrong way.

    Put it this way: In 5 years the odds are overwhelming that there will be a good software platform that can let you pick 5000 servers and run your app 10,000 threaded, with everything appearing just like a single process, and running "as it would on a Cray." It's easier to solve this stuff with software -- take your problem (distributed computing) and solve the problem with a different set of technologies (high performance/low latency interconnects, shared address space/DMA across machines, etc).

    Apple's Xgrid is a step in this direction. It's missing a ton of "Supercomputer" functionality right now, but it's a nice cross-machine GUI scheduler. Right now this type of app can address maybe 20% of what supercomputer apps need... in the future maybe more like 98%.

  24. and in other news... by gmhowell · · Score: 3, Funny

    And in other news today, buggy whip manufacturers demand increased government subsidies.

    --
    Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  25. Forbes promoting socialism? by peter303 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Forbes has been complaining that federal support of advanced computing is too little? If the government over-stimulates an industry that has too small of a market, it wil just delay the failure.
    Of course the governent should continue in its current policy of funding a few leading-edge machines that are too costly to sell into the general market, but will test new technology. The governemnt itself is a customer will energy testing, weather modeling, medicine development, etc.

  26. Complex issues that have to be solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've been in this field over 25 years, been in public position at a major lab now for 8.

    If this was a simple issue, the HPC community would already have completely moved to clusters and never looked back 3 or 4 years ago. But it's not kiddies.

    Want to run a physics projection for more than 1 microsecond? Takes real horsepower that clusters cannot provide even distributed. Just too much damn data. Chem codes that include REAL data for useable time slices? too slow for clustered memory. Every auto maker in the world (almost) has been whining about the lack of BIG horsepower for a few years now.(crash codes and FEA) I could go on forever. Sure, some problems work awesome on clusters, which is why we have them. But definately not all of them.

    The problem is partly diminishing returns, partly the pathetic ammount of useable memory on a cluster and its joke for memory throughput, partly the growth in power of the low end and clustered networking, partly the ridiculously long development cycles invloved in High Performance Computing and the low $ returns,

    One of the biggest things congress sees is that this country will more than likely NEVER again lead the world in computing power for defense and research.

    And thats something we ought to do as the last real Superpower.

    The national labs TRIED clusters, they don't get all the jobs done they wanted. (see testimony before congress, writings in HPC jounals, and the last couple RFPs from US gov. labs,heck every auto maker in the world) People in HPC _know_ it now, but having let what little there was of the supercomputer industry die out, there isn't mcuh of an industry left to turn to now. It just may be too darned late. HPC hasn't been a money making industry since the early 80s.
    Heck, even Intel abandoned their clustered machine they custom built for the government.

    Most folks in HPC will readily admit the Top500 is kind of a joke. The HPC-challenge #s are a little more realistic for the tests, but we really do need something that approximately real world applications, not just a 70s cpu benchmark.

    For those that think this is a 'Linux wins' issue,
    consider that mostly it was fast interconnect networks that allowed clustering, not the OS. Examine the history of clusters and you'll see this is true. Btw, the last few SC companies are already mostly moving to linux anyway.(nec,fujitsu,cray;ibm dabbles in hpc)

    Hopefully the industry will survive long enough to allow for even better mergers of supercomputing power with low end cost, but at this point I doubt it. Cray has been on the ropes since 96, fujitsu's sc division is a loss leader, and NEC has been trying to get out of it for a while for something with a margin.

    Ed -gov labs HPC research punk
    -former Cray-on
    -former CDC type

    1. Re:Complex issues that have to be solved by jsac · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here's the problem. On codes which need lots of data interchange, communication speed becomes the bottleneck. I don't know of anyone running a serious fluid dynamics or weather code, which are this kind of data-interchange-limited application, who gets anything near peak performance on "real-world" problems using ASCI machines. Sure, ASCI White (a 10000-node cluster) was billed as a 10-Teraflops supercomputer. Who cares, when you get 10% of peak performance if you're lucky? NOAA wanted to buy a supercomputer in the mid-90s, for weather and climate simulations. They did the requirements analysis and decided that a Japanese vector supercomputer was what they needed -- nobody in the U.S. made them anymore. Seymour Cray flipped out -- a government organization buying foreign supercomputers? heresy! -- pulled a bunch of strings, and very soon thereafter Japanese supercomputers faced a stiff tariff because the Japanese were "dumping" their product on the U.S. market. Of course, that meant NOAA couldn't get their NEC. They ended up buying some American-made cluster and getting their piss-poor 5% of peak performance. Well, two years ago, Japan brought Earth Simulator online. It's cluster of 5000 vector processors; it boasted 30 Teraflops peak performance, which was 3 times as fast as the then-current number one machine, ASCI White. And a group from NOAA went over to Japan on invitation to check the machine out. They spent on the order of a week adapting some of their current codes to the ES architecture and fired them up. And got 66% of peak performance right off the bat. How'd that happen? Well, ES cost on the order of $100 million. (By the way, as a rule, if your 'supercomputer' cost less than $10 million, it's not really a supercomputer.) Of that, about $50 million went into developing the processor interconnect -- it's a 5000-way(!) crossbar, for you EE types. With an interconnect that big and fast, the communication bottleneck which dooms the big physics codes suddenly disappears. So, yeah, the U.S. supercomputer market at its own seed corn. To see Earth Simulator jump to the top of the Top 500 was something of a slap in the face; to see it get 20 Teraflops on real-world problems was a terrible blow to the prestige of the U.S. supercomputing community. And not one we're going to easily recover from.

      --
      "The urge to fly from modern systems, instead of moving through them to even greater, fairer things is, I think, an indi
  27. Clusters and supercomputers... by gillbates · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've seen a lot of naive comments suggesting that supercomputers are being replaced by clusters. The truth is, anyone who can replace their supercomputer with a cluster didn't need a supercomputer in the first place:

    1. (compared to a supercomputer):
    2. The prime advantage of an x86-based server is that it is cheap, and it has a fast processor. It is only fast for applications in which the whole dataset resides in memory - and even then, it is still the slowest of the group.
    3. Clusters are a little better, but suffer from severe scalability problems when driving IO-bound processes. As with the x86 server, if you can't put the full dataset into memory, you might as well forget using a cluster. The node to node throughput is several orders of magnitude slower than the processor bus in multiple CPU systems. (6.4GB/s vs 17MB/s for regular ethernet, or 170MB/s for Gigabit)
    4. Multiple CPU servers do better, but still lack the massive storage capacity of the mainframe. They work better than clusters for parallel algorithms requiring frequent syncronization, but still suffer from a lack of overall data storage capacity and throughput.
    5. Mainframes, OTOH, possess relatively modest processors, but the combined effect of having several of them, and the massive IO capability makes them very good for data processing. However, their processors aren't fast at anything, and often run at 1/2 or 1/3 the speed of their desktop counterparts.
    6. Supercomputers combine the IO throughput of a mainframe with the fast processors typically associated with RISC architectures (if you can still consider anything RISC or CISC nowadays). They have faster processors, more memory, and much greater IO throughput than any other category.
    It used to be that the prime reason for faster computers came from the scientific and business communities. But now that the internet has turned computers into glorified televisions, the challenges have gone from that of crunching numbers to serving content:
    1. Clusters are great for serving read-only content, because there's very little active synchronization required between nodes, and the aggregate IO capacity scales well.
    2. Mainframes reign when it comes to IO throughput - companies that formerly had use for a supercomputer are finding that their role is shifting to more of an information-provider role; faster processors are no longer as important as fast IO subsystems.
    3. Scientists aren't being trained to use the computer as a tool; most think of a computer more or less as a means of verifying their hypothesis, rather than a means of discovering possible explanations. Their primary work is done with a calculator and pencil, and only later, when they need something to back up their ideas, do they turn to a computer simulation. The computer is a verification tool, not a means of discovery.

    As our economy has shifted away from a technological base to an entertainment one, the need for supercomputers has begun to evaporate. We outsource innovation overseas so that we can lounge around on the couch watching tv and drinking beer (or surfing the net and drinking beer). The primary purpose of technological innovation has shifted from that of discovering the universe to merely bringing us better entertainment.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Clusters and supercomputers... by Wizzy+Wig · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "...if you can't put the full dataset into memory, you might as well forget using a cluster. The node to node throughput is several orders of magnitude slower than the processor bus in multiple CPU systems. (6.4GB/s vs 17MB/s for regular ethernet, or 170MB/s for Gigabit)"

      There's the argument in a nutshell. A cluster ain't worth shiite to a modeler who needs to move petabytes of contiguous data in his algorithms.

  28. I agree-- clusters are limited by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One technology that I work with is called Artificial Life and is basically large evolutionary software simulations. (This is not exactly the same thing as genetic programming, but it's close.) This is an example of something that just plain doesn't cluster well. Try to cluster one of these, and you will max out a gigabit switched LAN in less than a second (I've done it!). I've even maxed out a gigabit "star configuration" LAN with this stuff. It just doesn't cluster.

    The problem is that these simulations involve many cells that must interact with each other in real-time. The cluster spends 90% of it's time waiting on other nodes no matter how you build the architecture.

    There are lots of other problems like this that just don't cluster well.

    Clustering only works for problems like protein folding or SETI that divide up into neat "work units" that can be shipped out and then returned. Millions has been spent, along with massive amounts of time by people like myself, and we're still no closer to being able to really cluster applications like this efficiently.

  29. Hammertime by Graymalkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is no super computer technology crisis, there is however a paradigm shift happening in the supercomputer market. Twenty years ago building your own supercomputer, even a loosely coupled cluster, was not a very viable option for most research institutions. Today this option is not only viable but often exercised.

    Obviously the big SC vendors and designers seeing less business roll their way, why pay them tons of money when you can have grad students assemble your cluster for the price of some pizzas? That isn't to say SC clusters are the end-all be-all of computing but they're very useful and relatively inexpensive. Realistically they're simply an extension of what Cray started with their T3D supercomputer. The T3D was very impressive in its days but now the technology to build such systems is in the hands of just about everyone.

    Taco: What the hell is up with the IT color scheme? This is even worse than the scheme for the Games section. I know the Slashdot editors don't actually read the site but other people try to and we're not all colorblind or reading from grayscale monitors.

    --
    I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
  30. From an engineering perspective... by mkiwi · · Score: 2, Informative
    The real limit to super computing is the implementation of logic devices (NAND, NOR, etc.) at significant clock speed. The only way developers currently have to create a faster computer is analogous to Apple's "Megahertz Myth"- with a shorter pipeline and slower clockspeed.

    Several engineering issues making this Ludicrously LSI operation possible have not been solved. One type of logic found in computers is called CMOS, the other called TTL. TTL has another special implementation that allows it to achieve high clock rates.

    This special TTL that is used today has reached its peak at .09 nanometers in width. The semiconductors used today do not have enough "gas" (voltage) to power such a large system. Every transistor has a voltage drop within it, and adding more and more transistors only increases heat, power consumption, and probability of failure. If a single part of a huge new chip were to fail, the entire chip would have to be replaced.

    Ever wonder why CPU's run hot? They dissipate voltage (and with it current, which is the True Power). At some point, the input voltage on the processor will be so close to the output that measuring HIGH or LOW (1's and 0's) becomes impossible. Until some scientist discovers a brand new material that can overcome current and voltage barriers, clustering will be the norm. Said scientist would be a billionare if they could patent a material like that.

    Researchers are out looking for these new substances, mind you. Until they find one and build a semiconductor company, single computers with low clock speeds and high bandwidth will not be able to tackle what the human imagination has instore for them. There is also a limit involving physics and microwaves that I could get into, but i'm not a physicist. I'll leave that up to them :)

    1. Re:From an engineering perspective... by beowulf2003 · · Score: 2, Informative

      have not been solved. One type of logic found in computers is called CMOS, the other called TTL. TTL has another special implementation that allows it to achieve high clock rates.
      What are you talking about ? TTL is a bipolar logic family and has a handful (10-20) gates (NAND/NOR/INVERT) per chip. Each and every microprocessor or ASIC today uses the CMOS logic. And even though some folks are running around talking about the end of CMOS, these folks don't seem think so. They say we can go on till 2018 drawing gate lengths as small as 22nm (or 18nm effective) (Page 15 in the executive summary PDF) since just about everybody in the semiconductor industry is involved in coming up with this roadmap, I think it just be have some validity ...

  31. I have one word for you...Quantum Computing! by anactofgod · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Two...I have two words for you!

    Seriously, I don't see the problem, so long as companies like IBM and (dare I say it) Microsoft continue to do research in this area. That is the real value of companies that are committed to *real* research in revolutionary sciences and technology.

    Of course, US companies don't have a hammerlock on this research. There is a lot of work being done internationally in the area, by corporations, and by educational/research institutions.

    ---anactofgod---

    --

    ---anactofgod---

    "Equal opportunity swindling - *that* is the true test of a sustainable democracy."
  32. Solving the Wrong Problems with Other People's $$ by billstewart · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The Ford guy wants the Feds to cough up $200M in tax money to develop machines that solve problems that Ford and a couple of other people have, instead of either Ford spending the money themselves or the Feds spending money getting the industry to develop computers or software that solve problems that far more people have which could be much more benefit to industry as a whole. I'm not convinced that the Feds should be doing that either, but since the Weather Service and Nuclear Weapons Designers seem happy with big clusters, the opportunity cost of spending my money designing a computer for building better SUVs vs. a computer for better medical research or whatever seems an obvious bad choice.

    In particular, he wants a 2000s-version of an 1980s architecture running a 1960s language. For $1M, he could train his technology guys to use newer programming techniques. Yes, I realize that Fortran 90 is newer than Fortran 77 which is newer than Fortran IV which is newer than Fortran 1, and that the biggest CPU job these guys do is usually crunching big matrices of floating point numbers. That's a job for a subroutine you write once and feed with data and user interfaces that are written in languages that are more efficient for prototyping and user interface design.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  33. Since when is /. a capitalist playground? by twigles · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it because there is a perceived zero-sum game being played between Linux-based clusters and supercomputers? Hey, let's take a reality check here, a lot of research is not directly applicable. In fact, I've read numerous discussions on /. railing against the MBAs and the Bush regime for not funding anything that doesn't turn a profit within about 18 months or have something to do with killing brown people.

    Letting supercomputing die may be harmless, after all, the US doesn't have to be the best at everything in the world and some other country will fund the research. But from some of the more coherent posts I've read, it seems like supercomputing has a definite niche in the natural sciences, something we should be pushing for a better society - learning for learning's sake - and paying for out of public coffers. My taxes go to a lot of shitty things I'd rather them not go to, like subsidizing Haliburton with no-bid contracts. Why is it so offensive to /.'rs that the country as a whole subsidizes advanced computing? Isn't computer science all about seeing what can be computed? Letting supercomputing die because it's expensive seems like an extraordinarily short-sighted thing to do.

  34. Re:Solving the Wrong Problems with Other People's by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Oh, and yes, I'm a Linux fanboy, but I was also reading comp.arch (remember Usenet?) back in the days when the Attack of The Killer Micros was starting to kill the minicomputer and mainframe industry ("careful with that Vax, Eugene!") and RISC vs. CISC was still a design issue, so I do have some perspective on the game.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  35. Re:Moreover I think those industry panelists... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And there's no real reason why you can't do that with a cluster as well- archetecting both the hardware and the software for the cheapest possible construction.

    Reminds me of my early programming days on the TI99/4A. The brilliant bit that made that computer more powerfull than most other micros on the market at the time (except maybe the Commodores and Ataris, but neither of those had this as much as the 99er did) was multiple specialized subprocessors. Most others had *maybe* a video processor and a sound processor, but the TI also had a memory manager and an I/O management chip and a speech synthesis chip as well. A good assembly level programmer had his own cluster supercomputer- even if it was only running at 3.44Mhz. Better yet, the PEB allowed you to build your own specialized cards for additional tasks- Disk I/O had it's own processor, as did Serial and Parallel communications.

    We do this today with off the shelf consumer hardware thanks to USB, AGP graphics cards, and separate sound processors on sound cards. To truly take over the Supercomputer market, that's the paradigm we need to get back to.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  36. So what by DarkOx · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What does it matter if we don't develop single unit supercomputers. Clearly in a free market if these thing had value they would be persued. There is not predetory tax laws on supercomputer, or any other regulations on domestic use. The only reason development has slowed is there is not much market for the beasts.

    There are many reasons for that too, for one other then in stealer, neculear, mathematic, and bio research feilds few industries need more computing power then can be had off the shelf any day of the week. That was not true yesterday it took all sorts of custom hardware to make CGI happen in films that can be done now in my basement in resonable time frames. So no more super computer market there the ROI is gone I am sure this plays out in all sorts of other engineering feilds as well.

    Many places where you do need super computing power can be done with clusterd systems that are cheap to build and cheap to maintain.

    At least people in the pure science and research fields have learned to be better thinkers and programers, they found ways to do things in parallel that were traditionally serial. Things that still are serial can be made to work on a cluster, sure it might take longer then a single computer considered to be equal FLOPSwise but considering I could either spend all the money I saved makeing my cluster bigger and more powerful so I can get back to equal time or on other profitable efforts while I wait there is again no ROI.

    It so happens that may of the most interestin questions in math, physics and computer science such as quatum theory need massive amounts of parallel work, rather then serial so that works better on a cluster anyway.

    If there is a real reason to do it people will build supercomputer, because there is nothing stopping them other then economics. No need to fear Supercomputers are not going away. Everyone else that needs that kinda proc-ing power will settle for clusters, as well they should. This is just another largly obsolete industry wanting someone to bail them out because they have failed to adapt to a changing market. If they are going to die we should let them, just like we should let the Universitys adapt or die, and the RIAA needs to adapt or die, we need to stop proping up obsolete undustries so new ones can replace them!

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  37. Interesting... by Xabraxas · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's true these "parallel processing" machines can go fast--Virginia Tech built the third-fastest machine in the world for just $5.2 million with 1,100 G5 chips from Apple Computer (nasdaq: AAPL - news - people ). But they have proven "exceptionally difficult to program" and problematic at certain performance levels, according to a 2004 study by the President's High-End Computing Revitalization Task Force.

    Oh really. Don't blame me for not trusting a guy with that kind of potential bias.

    --
    Time makes more converts than reason
  38. Re:Two sides to this... by crazyphilman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, but they work ON supercomputers, they don't build or design them... Do they?

    I was talking about a center whose purpose was the creation of ever-more-powerful supercomputers. The rental section would just be there to make use of the tech, and put it through its paces.

    --
    Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
  39. Re:Isn't this good? by ameoba · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about a compromise like SGI's NUMA systems? Seems like a reasonable compromise between fast memory & lots of CPUs when memory access is important.

    --
    my sig's at the bottom of the page.
  40. 1024 Chickens by bombadillo · · Score: 2, Funny

    This reminds of a Quote from Cray. It goes something like, "Would you rather have 1024 chickens pulling a wagon or a big Ox."

  41. Next-gen systems already under development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    New supercomputing advances on the way will radically redefine the industry.

    I refer to a DARPA funded project created to fill in the performance gap between today's inadequate SC technology and tomorrow's (quantum, bio) still far in the future stages.

    The project is called HPCS, which does not stand for High Performance Computing System, but rather High Productivity Computing System. The point is not to increase flops but increase value. The earth simulator, for example, is down for maintenance about 2/3 of the time and can only be reliably run in 8 hour chunks. The ASCII series may have high peak performance but averages only 5-10% of that. DARPA knows that if this is the state of the art, then there is work the do.

    Three companies are currently doing research on proposals and are DARPA-funded through 2006. The three are Sun, IBM, and Cray. Two companies will continue from 2006. A working product will be delivered in 2010.

    Many radical new technologies are in place, but as you can understand most of it is tightly under wraps. But do some reading on the DARPA page and you will find some interesting things.

    Here is the link

    - employee at one of the three aforementioned companies

  42. It is about cost by deadline · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Sigh...

    There never really was a supercomputer market. There was a cold war, that subsidized the supercomputer market.

    Then there is the cost. Companies stopped making SC because they were too expensive. If the guy from Ford wants to pay 1 billion for a supercomputer I am sure someone will build him one. The cost build a FAB is over 4 billion. Why do you think HP teamed with Intel. Why do you think there are so few processor families? You have to make a living in the commodity market where you can sell things in the millions because supercomputers even in their heyday were sold in the hundreds.

    Then there is the problem that many problems are solvable on clusters. So those specialized problems can not depend on other parts of the HPC market to help subsidized their corner of the market. i.e. clusters make the really hard problems more expensive.

    It is question of how much you want to pay to solve your problem? Simple economics actually. If the numbers don't work, the problem doesn't get solved. If the Gov. wants to solve some problems (and during the cold war they did) then they can step in and subsidize the market.

    And don't cry about Japan and the Top500. When the top500 has price column then it will start to be meaningful.

    --
    HPC for Primates. Read Cluster Monkey
  43. Re:Compaq killed it... by Simkin1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually you're only partially correct. The alpha processor despite popular opinion was headed towards the scrap heap before Compaq bought them. The reality is that the conventional 'supercomputer' markets were falling away from the Alpha because of the promise of the Itanium and Opterons (which were just poking their heads out of their holes at the time and announcing their existance). In additional benchmarks of the existing alphas were only marginally better than the Intel Pentiums of the time (pre-Itanium & AMD Opteron) despite the 64 bit processing. The stall wasn't because of Compaq, but because the core development teams for the Alpha were... well, getting old and retiring without suitable replacements. Plus I heard it rumored that Compaq purchased Alpha not for the processor, but for the architecture which it intended to 'reinvent' in a new image. Dunno what happened with that though...

  44. Reality check.. by Simkin1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I hear this type of FUD all the time from some of the older folks I work with -- all the hype about Cray systems, shared memory capabilities. There are several problems with the 'supercomputing' market though. First off if you go to any local University, they teach fortran as a basic intro course, but most professors will footnote their comments by saying things like "Fortran is no longer considered a marketable language"... so students think -- why waste time learning it (other than the basic programming capability?); this erodes the base support for vectorized programming support (putting aside arguements that fortran is not vector programming for now please). More importantly (and secondly), Cray architectures are MASSIVELY expensive in relation to where the standard desktop CPU is without enough benefit to make them worth it. People talk about the need to play "catch up" as if there is a real crisis at hand. The reality is that clusters are gaining in popularity because they're cheap, and per CPU tend to be more 'powerful'. Institutions that purchase Crays end up with a number of folks trying to run software and inevitably you run into time bottlenecks. What folks at these institutions realized is that by purchasing a 'state-of-the-art' 32/64 bit system with dual processors and a couple gig of memory, that by the time their jobs were starting on the Crays, they could already be running on their new desktops.... In the end I say why rent time on a big Cray when you can purchase your own system and run it into the ground with jobs? Despite some of the FUD I've seen splashed around by folks who are proponents of Cray systems, Clusters are relatively simple to setup, do not require multi-million dollar yearly contracts, and can generally be maintained by the purchaser without much effort. Most of the cost of clusters anymore is the cost of the system administration -- which you don't need a "staff" of SA's to administer. IMHO, you don't even need an SA anymore for designing, building, and running a cluster; with only a baseline of knowledge of computers, and a little reading just about anyone could build their own. When all is said and done, you end up with more compute power in a cluster at a much lower cost. Some folks would say that throughput is an issue; that's problem dependent, and can be rectified with a little problem solving. Some folks indicated that clusters aren't optimized for peak performance... WHO CARES?? If it takes me two minutes longer for a 5 week job to finish, I've still made out better for not purchasing a Cray. I've heard folks complain about not enough memory, or programming problems -- generally these tend to be older folks (what I like to call the obsolete-engineers; aka -- old fogies) These are generally the folks that complain about the 'new fangled' software they have to use, and simply don't want to have to reinvent their "marvelous software" in a new environment. I've run 64 gig memory jobs on clusters without a problem; again my problems allow for parallelization optimization... Eventually I end up telling folks who are steadfast supporters of the Cray to wake up, this is a brand new era about you. The days of the single supercomputer vendor filling all your needs are over. You now have choices, and with those choices you have to take the responsibility of defining how your new parallel supercomputer will function. Either learn and adapt, or become obsolete.

  45. SGI is running linux on a 512 CPU NUMA by barneyfoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you read the papers at the recent OLS (Ottawa linux simposium) you'll see that SGI is running linux images (specially tuned) on 64, 128, 256, and in 2 cases 512 cpus. Reading the paper is an interesting view into the problems of running kernels and OS's on such huge NUMA machines.

    http://www.finux.org/proceedings/