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A Taste Of Computer Security

andrew_ps writes "Amit Singh has published on his KernelThread.com a paper (mini book really) on computer security. A Taste of Computer Security is a VERY comprehensive paper in what it covers, but is remarkably easy to read. This is not some list of "sploits" though! Topics covered include popular notions about security, types of mal-ware, viruses & worms, memory attacks/defences, intrusion, sandboxing, review of Solaris 10 security and plenty of others. Most notably it includes probably one of the most fair and intelligent analysis of the Unix-Vs-Windows security issue that I have ever seen."

192 comments

  1. PDF? by Outsider_99 · · Score: 0

    All very nice. Looks very interesting... but is there a PDF available?

    1. Re:PDF? by JAD+lifter · · Score: 1

      Why did this person get modded down? He has a legitimate question. I for one do not want to have to read the entire huge paper online, reding a page, clicking next and waiting for the next page to load, etc. I would much rather have a PDF that I can print out and read.

    2. Re:PDF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AOL!

  2. Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by mindhaze · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Looks like an interesting read, and if nothing else, something we should be slipping onto our PHB's desks!

    1. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by RepeatedEigenvalue · · Score: 1, Funny

      I'll set it as my PHB's home page. Should be easy enough, he takes a 2 hour lunch and his password is 12345.

      --


      friends don't let friends use linearly dependent row vectors.
    2. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by x0n · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not meaning to point this directly at you, mindhaze, but it _is_ an interesting read, and if nothing else, _we_ should be reading it before slipping it into our PHBs' desks.

      I would go so far as to say this should be made the must-read EULA for joining Slashdot. It might cut down some of the pointless conjecture and idiotic jibber that so clutters every discussion that mentions Windows, security or anything related. Hell, Slashdot may even grow still and quiet once in while. Not.

      - Oisin

      --

      PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
    3. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by Walterk · · Score: 2, Funny

      12345? Thats the code for my suitcase!

    4. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by mindhaze · · Score: 1

      Not meaning to point this directly at you, mindhaze, but it _is_ an interesting read, and if nothing else, _we_ should be reading it before slipping it into our PHBs' desks.

      Uhh... if you have a PHB, then your JOB is to read it, no? That being said, of course we should read it before dumping it on our PHBs desk! This just seems like pointless meandering to assume anything else.

    5. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by x0n · · Score: 1

      Ok, you misread my intentions. I mean to say having read it [the article], it is worth reading. I don't mean to say that you would hand it off without reading it yourself.

      - Oisin

      --

      PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
    6. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by wayward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This actually would be a good book for management types, because the writing is clear and not overly technical. I like the way he makes the point that security is about more than a "grab bag of exploits."

    7. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats the code for my suitcase!

      "luggage".

      Oh, almost forgot, "That's".

    8. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by Bull999999 · · Score: 1

      Mine is 12345678. It's more secure because it has minimum of 8 charactors in it.

      --
      1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
    9. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quit your jibber jabber!

    10. Re:Interesting "book", great read for PHBs! by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      My boss doesn't have any time to learn this kind of frothy stuff about technology. Hummm, by the way, my tech coworkers don't have time for these frothy matters too...
      (sigh) Life sucks...

  3. Amit Singh, thank you! by CharAznable · · Score: 3, Informative

    Kernelthread is by far the best source of information about OS X, barring Apple itself.

    --
    The perfect sig is a lot like silence, only louder
  4. The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I specifically was looking for one of the biggest problems with Windows -- Administrator authority is too easily doled out (by default, every home user is also an administrator.) This is exacerbated by the fact that so many Windows applications require the user to have Administrator authority.

    For example, the bottom of this page shows a list of games that require Administrator authority to play. Why should administrator authority need to be granted to play a game? And to suggest granting Administrator access to people just so they can play them?

    I have found no more powerful example of Microsoft's lack of commitment to security than this. I think this philosophy more than anything else contributes to the proliferation of destructive worms and viruses.

    --
    John
    1. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by musikit · · Score: 1

      i like how all the games listed are microsoft games

    2. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by nb+caffeine · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Funny how the games listed there are all microsoft games. You'd think that MS would know how to get a game to run without Admin access... Well, I'd like to think anyhow :)

      --

      "Something's wrong with you...and I hope we never do meet again." - Deftones When Girls Telephone Boys
    3. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Klar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Isn't it the game writers fault, not M$'s? From what I've heard(not sure how valid I am on this though) the reason they need admin rights is because the program stores info in the admin parts of the registry. Perhaps they should start enforcing software companies to keep away from doing this, and make it easier to run windows while not being an admin user.

    4. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by TrollBridge · · Score: 0
      "For example, the bottom of this page [microsoft.com] shows a list of games that require Administrator authority to play. Why should administrator authority need to be granted to play a game?"

      Perhaps if game companies wrote their games to run without admin rights, this wouldn't be a problem. It's not Microsoft's fault that game companies refuse to incorporate good security measures in their games.

      --
      There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
    5. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Perhaps if game companies wrote their games to run without admin rights, this wouldn't be a problem. It's not Microsoft's fault that game companies refuse to incorporate good security measures in their games.

      I certainly think it is when Microsoft is either the writer or publisher of said game...

    6. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by abb3w · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Why should administrator authority need to be granted to play a game?

      Obviously, to make low level system calls for direct hardware access in a copy protection scheme.

      I have found no more powerful example of Microsoft's lack of commitment to security than this.

      While some blame attaches to Microsoft, since they choose to use such a copy protection method with their games, the real culprit is Macromedia, who made the SafeDisc copy protection system at fault.

      So, what do you think will happen if it can be proven that the copy-protection methods the Content lobbies (RIAA/MPAA/BSA) are using are a threat to Homeland Security?

      --
      //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    7. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Proaxiom · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I have found no more powerful example of Microsoft's lack of commitment to security than this. I think this philosophy more than anything else contributes to the proliferation of destructive worms and viruses.

      This is not a fair criticism. The 'security initiative' thing is still relatively new, and they are burdened by a large number of legacy security problems from the many years of development with any regard for security problems.

      Most of the games in that list, for instance, were originally intended to be played in the 9x series of OS's, which had no notion of anything that was not administrator access (actually, 95/98/ME users had more access than NT admins do!).

      There are certainly areas where Microsoft's commitment has been lacking, but the least privilege principle is one of the better areas. Michael Howard et al have been pushing hard for this within Microsoft, and more importantly, pushing for better developer education on how to write code that adheres to least privilege.

      Because when you get down to it, if an application requires administrator access to run, it is not the fault of the Operating System.

    8. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by fireduck · · Score: 2, Informative

      I second this complaint. As I recall, one of the recent Blizzard games (fairly sure it has to be Warcraft 3, but it might have been Diablo 2) required admin rights in order to play online through battle.net. Took me a while to figure out why online wasn't working for me, until I switched to admin account, and then voila. I complained in their forums about this (with the predictable response from other players, "why don't you just switch your setting?"); few patches later Blizzard made the game playable with normal user setting. So, it's good that some companies get it, althought it would have been nice if they had gotten it from the start.

    9. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      I've got MechCommander at home, and I could have sworn it wasn't a Microsoft game. I'll have to look again, but I suspect a rather large repetitive typo on their part.

    10. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...the real culprit is Macromedia, who made the SafeDisc copy protection system at fault.

      Minor knitpick, but Macrovision makes SafeDisc, not Macromedia...Macromedia is the company that gave us that other monstrosity (aka, Flash).

    11. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by tomknight · · Score: 2, Informative
      "i like how all the games listed are microsoft games"

      That's probably because this is the Microsoft knowledge base.

      Sheesh.

      Tom.

      --
      Oh arse
    12. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by x0n · · Score: 1

      Why should administrator authority be needed to play a game? Pfff. I see you didn't read the article very well. Nearly all, if not all, games are designed to run on Windows 95 and up. To summarise, by virtue of NT's choice to backwardly support 95/98/ME, it has to give root access to the games by virtue of the shared win32 api/registry access and other functions between 95 derived and NT derived systems. Read the article again.

      - Oisin

      --

      PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
    13. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not so sure. Here, at home, I am running my Linux box as a normal user, firewalled and everything setup according to the rules. Still, what would malware want with my root access for? If I would execute something malicious, the virus/trojan/whatever would already have access to what is important: the desktop user.

      Ok, so it can't erase the *whole* HD or meddle too much with the system, but it can do everything I have the right to do, such as finding and using mail clients and start spreading if that is what it is about.

      It could also simply sit idle and log keystrokes until I enter my root pw if that is needed, or just any banking info, or whatever. What it can't do would be stuff like opening a spam mail relay. Until it gets the root pw, that is. Or maybe it is enough to capture your normal pw and use sudo? Did you set it up without restrictions?

      Other possibilities include invading lots of local config scripts that are run when starting applications, and oh, when was the last time you checked what was in your KDE autostart? Or any of all the other files that are usually run?

      Most things don't matter if root/Administrator access is available - that is for servers.

      Actually, I could have something like this running since a long time ago, maybe some russian is watching me type this. After all, I've allowed outgoing connections and I don't do real security audits. After all, this is my home desktop user system. I think it is lots better of than most, but it is not a server.

    14. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by finkployd · · Score: 2, Funny

      Macromedia is the company that gave us that other monstrosity (aka, Flash)

      Which brought us homestarrunner, so it can't be ALL bad :)

    15. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Have you ever used a linux box without root permission? It is hard to install software as well.

      It is the programmers who use certain resources and assume that everyone else has the ability to write to them.

    16. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which brought us homestarrunner, so it can't be ALL bad :)

      ahhhh...touché...

    17. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by schon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Obviously, to make low level system calls for direct hardware access in a copy protection scheme.

      Sounds like a cop-out to me. 'low-level' system calls are just that - *system* calls, and the system should have a way to allow processes run under non-admin accounts.

      At the very least, why can't the installer put a 'setuid' (or whatever the windows equivalent is) program that does the bit-banging? Does the 'system' not allow it? (If not, then the system is indeed broken.)

    18. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by strictnein · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    19. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by skyhighpenguin · · Score: 1

      I certainly think it is when Microsoft is either the writer or publisher of said game...
      A fault of Microsoft it may be...but a fault of windows it isn't...

      Although I have played Microsoft games that have been less fun than repairing Windows....

      --
      When the earth starts spinning before you, remember the phrase... "I have control!"
    20. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by peragrin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Of the Games Listed the Bulk are Microsoft made games. So it is the game writers fault, but since MS is the game writer you can just skip a step and blame MS.

      for you who didn't click on the link

      * Microsoft Age of Mythology
      * Microsoft Age of Mythology: The Titans
      * Microsoft Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings 2.0
      * Microsoft Age of Empires II Expansion: The Conquerors
      * Microsoft Age of Empires II Gold Edition
      * Microsoft Baseball 2001
      * Microsoft Casino
      * Microsoft Classic Board Games
      * Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 2: WWII Pacific Theater 1.0
      * Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3: Battle for Europe
      * Microsoft Crimson Skies
      * Microsoft Dungeon Siege 1.0
      * Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 - Century of Flight
      * Microsoft Flight Simulator 2002
      * Microsoft Flight Simulator 2002 Professional Edition
      * Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000
      * Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 Professional Edition
      * Microsoft Freelancer
      * Microsoft Golf 2001 Edition
      * Microsoft Halo: Combat Evolved
      * Microsoft Impossible Creatures
      * Microsoft Links LS 2000
      * Microsoft Links 2001
      * Microsoft MechCommander 2.0 1.0
      * Microsoft MechWarrior 4: Vengeance
      * Microsoft MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries
      * Microsoft Metal Gear Solid
      * Microsoft Midtown Madness 1.0
      * Microsoft Midtown Madness 2 2.0
      * Microsoft Motocross Madness 2 2.0
      * Microsoft NBA Inside Drive 2000 1.0
      * Microsoft NFL Fever 2000 1.0
      * Microsoft Pandora's Box 1.0
      * Microsoft Rise of Nations
      * Microsoft StarLancer 1.0
      * Microsoft Train Simulator 1.0
      * Microsoft Zoo Tycoon
      * Microsoft Zoo Tycoon: Complete Collection
      * Microsoft Zoo Tycoon: Dinosaur Digs Expansion Pack
      * Microsoft Zoo Tycoon: Marine Mania Expansion Pack

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    21. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by x0n · · Score: 1
      For example, the bottom of this page shows a list of games that require Administrator authority to play.

      Eh, no. If you bothered to read the whole page, you'd see that the list pertains to games that require administrator access to _install_, not neccessarily play, which is entirely sensible.

      -Oisin

      --

      PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
    22. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Klar · · Score: 1

      Humm, ya, they should have made a better attempt being microsoft games. Although, I know some of them are licenced out to other companies to make, like the Age of Empires series is made by Ensemble Studios, but published by microsoft. Still no excuse.

    23. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      I couldn't find the Original MechCommander on their site. Plenty of stuff about MechCommander 2, though. But thanks for the link.

    24. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      I actually hope windows doesn:t change the default root access it grants users. I dread the day when they change this I have to sit on the phone for hours with my family when they get their new computer, explaining to them what root access is compared to regular user settings, whats the difference,and why they should actually care to not be root. I believe this will happen just as my mom is trying to install an IM to talk with her sisters.

      I dread the day when this happens, because no one on start up will read what microsoft puts up there, even if its in big bold type, and so every help line will be clogged with wanting to know how to fix this. I don`t know what would be a good fix though. Maybe certain parts of the system in home users should just be made almost completely inaccessible until many, many, many hoops are jumped through. The computer litterate could do this, but if you make it such that in daily use, these priveledges aren`t needed, few regular users that don`t worry about security will be struck. Of course, this is very difficult when you do foolish things like integrate your web browser. I`m sure if the best crackers went at it, they could expose many security holes in mozilla but the difference is htat its a lot more difficult to control a system from a mozilla security hole. At best, you could probably make mozilla act up.

      Of course, I hope microsoft surprises us all by making IE *not integrated* come longhorn, becuase I think this would allow for much more comprehensive security, but I highly doubt this will happen, so we are just SOL, eh?

    25. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it's quite trivial to install most software on Unix as a "mere user". It has been this way for decades.

      If Vendors choose not to allow for this, it is certainly not due to a lack of functionality in the underlying system.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    26. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by plover · · Score: 3, Interesting
      A fault of Microsoft it may be...but a fault of windows it isn't...

      No, this is a fault of Windows. We don't know how these games run or why they require admin authority. It might be to access the sound card, or the video drivers, or DirectX or something similar. But in all those cases it's a fault of Windows for not providing non-admin-level access to the required resources.

      It may have something to do with backwards compatibility with Windows 9x. In that case, yes, the application probably could have littered itself with millions of 'if (WindowsVersion >= 4) SafeFunction() else UnsafeFunction() calls, each of which would have killed performance dead. They also could have shipped fat binaries or even two binaries, and had the installation program make the right choice up front. All those solutions add their own problems to an already complex product, though, and if those types of bad solutions are required, I'd say it's the fault of the OS for requiring them.

      I would also think that if it were something they could easily fix at the application level, Microsoft's newest releases would not make this list. However, since it includes "Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 - Century of Flight" I'd say that in these days of Microsoft waving the "Security First" flag, they have never actually addressed the root problem. And the root is Windows, not the application.

      --
      John
    27. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by badriram · · Score: 3, Informative
      The words over there when you read the games list were "you may experience". It does not happen for all users. I run halo all the time with a unprivildged user account, and trust me it works.

      Also if you look at every major application made by MS, all of them run in user space, I run enough machines in my university to know what application do and what do not work in Windows user space. The one major problem we do run into is Visual Studio, but that is because of the debugging features, which can also be granted easily.

      There are enough opensource apps in windows that have this problem.
      • Firefox, first run after installation requires Admin to run it, otherwise crashes over and over again
      • MySQL, if you enable innoDB, Which is by default, it likes to crash in user space

      But yes this problem is more pronounced with other third party windows applications.
    28. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Windows does provide non-admin access to all those low-level resources. It's called DirectX. I've never had to be Administrator to run any game under XP, and really, not even to install them (unless the game decides that it needs to install the latest DirectX for you, then it needs Admin rights, and that's why installshield likes to ask for it by default)

      It's no more fair to criticize XP because legacy games designed for Windows 95 were poorly written and need to be run as root, no more than it is to criticize the new Gentoo 2004.2 because the original linux Doom and Quake ports required svgalib, and thus had to be run as root.

      And there were exploits, oh boy, were there ever. Those were my asshole script-kiddy days. Camping, huh? Well just wait until you load the next map, complete with buffer-overflow giving me root access, etc.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    29. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have found no more powerful example of Microsoft's lack of commitment to security than this [common requirement that the user have Administrator privilages]. I think this philosophy more than anything else contributes to the proliferation of destructive worms and viruses.

      You know, you have pointed out one of the two major failings of Windows security-wise. The other is at least as bad, however.

      People often think of UNIX being a nightmare of dependencies, but from a security perspective, the dependency nightmare is actually far worse on Windows. Some of this I can understand, but some I cannot. For example, it is true that copy and paste in Windows depend on RPC. This is understandable (in Gnome, they depend on CORBA). But last time I tried to secure a Windows box by turning off RPC on the PPPoE interface, it would not authenticate until I re-enabled it. Apparently the PPP authentication mechanisms require that RPC is running (works if firewalled) on the same network interface, or at least that is what I was told when I finally called technical support (Microsoft). Granted this was Windows 2000 and I was using a third-party PPPoE extension, but still...

      At least with GNOME, I don't have to have CORBA listening on my network interfaces....

      If I am securing Linux or UNIX, there is generally it is usually clear what can be turned off whithout adverse results to the rest of the software. This is NOT true with Windows, and I have generally found disabling unnecessary services to be extremely difficuly on Windows because it is difficult to determine what is actually necessary.

      I find Windows security to be a complicated headache compared to UNIX security.

      Of course, real security depends on the admin, not the OS.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    30. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by jafomatic · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I may be mistaken, but I believe that these games were published or distributed by microsoft. Not "written" or "made by" microsoft. Age of Empires (II) was made by uh, Ensemble Studios or something.

      That said, you'd still hope they'd find a more-secure spot to write down the user's config. Wasn't there a branch on the root of the registry that was writeable without administrator permission? Is an ini-file impossible to consider as the settings store of a freakin' game?

      --
      ::jafomatic
    31. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by ztirffritz · · Score: 1

      I have run into this same problem where I work. We use several different CAM (computer aided machining) software packages. Almost all of them require admin security to function. What is the purpose of having a logon screen at all if your software works this way!?! I had to sit down and hack on these computers for hours trying to figure out which folders were the vital ones so that I could set scecurity levels at the directory level that would not grant the users admin access across the entire computer, but rather to certain folders that were needed for the programs. Eventually it worked, but only because I was paranoid enough to fight through it. Any sane person would have said "screw it" and given them admin permissions. Is this Microsoft's fault? No I don't think so, but they should make their vendors more aware of these problems. I have not yet come accross a problem such as this in OS X, but that does not mean it could not happen.

      --
      Why doesn't anything interesting happen when I have mod points?
    32. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      What it can't do would be stuff like opening a spam mail relay. Until it gets the root pw, that is.

      Couldn't it just open up port umpteen-thousand-and-twelve and run its spam relay there?

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    33. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by jafomatic · · Score: 1
      We don't know how these games run or why they require admin authority.
      I don't know every reason, but I can think of a couple/few. User settings, registration key, common component registration, may "require" permission to write to the registry. I say this in quotes because, aside from the component registration which should be done as admin at install-time, these settings can and should be doable without administrative privilege.

      The really recent games on that list (if any, I didn't look at release dates) have no good excuse for requiring this at runtime of the game engine, however I'm not at all surprised that it wasn't even thought of. Consider that writing to the windows registry might've even seemed to be the "proper" way to store settings. It's backed up automatically and was believed to be not as easy to find and adjust by the end-user.

      How many developers have we worked with who refused to use an older method to accomplish a task simply because it was older? I worked with a guy who argued against the use of an ini-file to store settings (he wanted to use the registry) because it was, and I will quote, "archaic". That application was almost designed to require administrative access at runtime because of such ideas.

      --
      ::jafomatic
    34. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Ytsejam-03 · · Score: 2, Informative
      I specifically was looking for one of the biggest problems with Windows -- Administrator authority is too easily doled out (by default, every home user is also an administrator.) This is exacerbated by the fact that so many Windows applications require the user to have Administrator authority.
      Application developers deserve just as much blame for this as Microsoft. It's a catch-22: practically everyone who uses Windows logs on as Administrator, so making sure non-administrative users can run your app is generally not a requirement.

      To make matters worse, Windows allows developers to store global variables in a shared memory segment, which IIRC is located in the dataseg of a given .exe or .dll. This provides an easy way to do IPC. IIRC, usage of shared memory segments is the reason that Office 97 and other apps require write(!) access to the System32 directory. Of course when I've seen shared memory segments mentioned in the MSDN documentation, I've never seen any mention of the security implications.

    35. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >Administrator authority is too easily doled out

      I'd argue that that's a symptom and not a cause. Behind all the technical errors there's a mindset that causes them.

      For example, somebody thought it was a good idea to have web server plugins run in the address space of the web server. It's only a good idea if you place more value on speed than on reliability and security. Somebody thought it was a good idea to speed up the system by moving more and more functionality into Ring 0. Somebody thought it was a good idea to have Turing-equivalent programs execute when you open an Office document, placing features above security. Somebody thought Javascript in email was a good idea.

      The same mindset, until recently, valued rapid code development over security.

      Everthing came together in Slammer. The philosophy of feature-richness put a SQL database into products whose buyers didn't even know they had it. The philosophy of convenience had it listening on the network by default. And so on.

      By now the old Microsoft attitudes and assumptions have been baked into the foundations and built on by ISV's. Change will be slow and painful even with firm commitment by Microsoft.

    36. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by plover · · Score: 5, Interesting
      The security initiatives have been going on a lot longer than just their "global security mobilization" of October 2003. For example, this "Secure Platform" document was authored in December 2002. And since they seem to be able to put out the "hot fix of the week" to handle the "virus of the previous week," I should think they have had plenty of opportunities to get OS patches released, driver patches, or whatever is required to the computers that need it.

      Given that, explain why "Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 - Century of Flight" should still make the list? If software they've released years after they've been aware of these problems still demands bad security practices, who is to blame? The application programmers or the environment in which they must work?

      You said, "if an application requires administrator access to run, it is not the fault of the Operating System." Explain how a train simulator could possibly require admin authority except in a poorly architected environment? Then answer, 'who provided that poor architecture?'

      This is Microsoft -- author of both these applications as well as the OS. They've had the chance to address it, they've had the incentive to address it, but they have not done so. I stand by my comment.

      --
      John
    37. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 4, Informative
      Why should administrator authority be needed to play a game?

      So the game can have "root"-level control over your machine, to ensure that you're not cheating with 3rd-party apps running on the same machine. It must be able to inspect all applications and drivers in memory, comparing them against a list of "cheat signatures" rather like a virus-scanner does.

      Seriously. This is exactly what's happening. Evenbalance.com licenses cheat-prevention software modules to several major game publishers, and they've started disallowing players on XP machines unless they're running under the "administrator" account.

      Just read the FAQ here:
      1. Why does PunkBuster now require players to run the game as an administrator under WinXP/2K?

        Because some cheats/hacks cannot be detected otherwise

      The reason you give is obselete- mistrust of the end user is the new, upcoming explanation.
    38. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just out of curiosity, why do people use Macrovision? I can't think of a single one of their products that isn't trivially breakable. You would think their reputation would be in the toilet.

    39. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      I specifically was looking for one of the biggest problems with Windows

      It also lacks in other areas. For one thing, it ignores the common argument that "Windows only attacked so much because it's the biggest target, not because it's more vulnerable".

      And elsewhere it lies, claiming that DOS/Windows has a history of virus-writing that UNIX lacks. That is plainly false, as rtm demonstrated epidemic UNIX infections decades ago.

    40. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      administrator access to _install_, not neccessarily play, which is entirely sensible.

      No it isn't. If a person has authority to run programs on a machine, and to place files on the machine, then he should be able to install and run a game off CD. (It should show up only in his own Programs menu, not globally, of course)

      This user can undoubtedly install some games, such as a standalone "tetris.exe" or similar, so there's no good reason to prohibit more elaborate installers (unless if that OS doesn't provide a good way to install things in non-global positions, in which case the blame returns to Microsoft)

    41. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by abb3w · · Score: 1
      At the very least, why can't the installer put a 'setuid' (or whatever the windows equivalent is) program that does the bit-banging?

      Even in UNIX, SUID files are one of the things you need to watch closely. As a non-random example, a superuser-SUID copy of [insert cracker's favorite shell] is a nicely unsubtle way to help widen a security pinhole into an aircraft hanger door.

      Your proposed technique does definitely reduce the ability of the user to accidentally shoot themselves in the foot, but any weakness in third-party SUID programs still effectively translates into an operating system weakness.

      --
      //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    42. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by JoeZeppy · · Score: 1
      Application developers deserve just as much blame for this as Microsoft. It's a catch-22: practically everyone who uses Windows logs on as Administrator, so making sure non-administrative users can run your app is generally not a requirement.

      And since the first thing developers do when they get their new PC is complain that they have to have admin rights, they never find out that their install routines don't work if they aren't admin.

    43. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read the article and saw that the priviledged execution discussion was there.

    44. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Tony-A · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, I'd like to think anyhow :)

      Yesterdays article on "Phish" scams links to a "test". One of the examples has the marks of a scam but is considered "legitimate". It is from MSN.

      I think a lot has to do with expectations and attitudes. I would expect many if not most games on Unix to just refuse to run as root. An intentional segfault is even more fun. NT may have more elaborate security mechanisms but they are too hard to get at. With Unix you tend to get a mess of rwx in your face. Anybody know how to put group permissions to their limits?

      Hiding file extensions probably does much more damage than administrator access.

      Unix has an unfair advantage with the name "root". "Administrator", just by the name, makes a much more attractive target. I was smart enough to rename the domain admin to "root". If I leave some user's machine logged on as root their natural reaction is to get their stuff back as fast as possible.

      Unix software tends to be as informative as it can as to where the problem resides. Microsoft software tends to try to shift the blame elsewhere if at all possible. The latest XP did not allow me to assign LPT1 to a remote printer. Kept coming with login prompt for the remote resource which never works. Finally disabled the hardware port in the bios. If you can confuse your enemy as to what the problem is, seems like you've got a considerable advantage.

    45. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      Isn't it the game writers fault, not M$'s?

      It's always someone else's fault.

      But seriously, the OS does a lot to implicitly set the tone for everything that will be run under. If game developers have admin access, their games will require admin access. To the extent that game developers think they need admin access, it is Microsoft's fault.

    46. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Tony-A · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good insight. The root/administrator bit is mostly a red herring.

      You still tend to put a bit better protection around the small amount of root-stuff, primarily because it's relatively simple to do.

      The fat non-root stuff, even on servers, is really the important stuff.
      The stuff that actually helps with security is that Unix things tend to think that it's a good idea if the user is aware of what is going on, and will go to a bit of extra trouble to be informative whenever and wherever possible.

      [ ] Always trust Microsoft
      [ ] Always trust Red Hat
      [ ] Always trust OpenBSD
      Reactions?

    47. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by pthisis · · Score: 1

      There's no reason to run every program under the same account; in particular, programs that deal with potentially malicious data a lot can benefit greatly from running as their own user.

      On my machine at home, I run my email client, web browser, newsreader as seperate users (if I'm "joe", they'd run as "joe-mail", "joe-news", and "joe-www"). The mail and news are almost completely isolated in chroot jails; I have links to their data in my home dir (and I have full read/write access to them, but not vice-versa). So viruses in email could clobber my mail, but couldn't touch anything else.

      The browser account is similar, but it has X11 access which has a lot more potential for havoc. I used to run the browser on vncserver, with a vncclient for that. That proved to be a bit too much of a pain for me.

      Once the setup was done, the whole thing is transparent to the user (clicking the launch icons does the appropriate magic behind the scenes to run things as the other users).

      You can even set up per-user firewall rules that (for instance) only allow the joe-mail account to connect to selected IMAP/POP/SMTP servers.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    48. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by pthisis · · Score: 1

      Even in UNIX, SUID files are one of the things you need to watch closely.

      No doubt. But if the alternatives are running a large untrusted game as Admin or running a smaller untrusted helper program as Admin, at least the latter reduces the sheer size of code that the untrusted party could have gaping security holes in (as well as the window of time for an exploit).

      Obviously if the untrusted party is malicious (rather than just a source of potentially unaudited, insecure code) then either option is going to give them Admin power full stop.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    49. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Proaxiom · · Score: 1
      The security initiatives have been going on a lot longer than just their "global security mobilization" of October 2003.

      Indeed. I was referring to their 'Trustworthy Computing Initiative', which was announced about 2 and a half years ago. That is still a relatively short period of time to be working at it, considering that the had put about 17 years worth of 'untrustworthy computing' tools into the field already.

      Explain how a train simulator could possibly require admin authority except in a poorly architected environment?

      Easy. It is protected by SafeDisc, which may have problems when being used by someone who is not an administrator. Did you even read the link you posted?

      The administrator access problem is not a symptom of a poorly architected environment. The NT architecture uses a more or less standard discretionary access control model, and cannot be faulted for the fact that most app developers don't pay attention to it. In this case it's not even the application developers who are at fault, its the authors of the copy-protection technology, who probably didn't test their software under NT with reduced privileges.

      I'm not generally a defender of Microsoft's security efforts, and I'll agree that there is a lot to be desired from their approach to security, but you're barking up the wrong tree with these complaints.

    50. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Westech · · Score: 1

      "(actually, 95/98/ME users had more access than NT admins do!)."

      Could you please elaborate on how 95/98/ME users have more access than NT admins? Are you referring to the fact that NT offers more system level safeguards that (attempt to) prevent things such as overwriting protected memory or causing stack overflows?

    51. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by abb3w · · Score: 1
      Obviously if the untrusted party is malicious (rather than just a source of potentially unaudited, insecure code) then either option is going to give them Admin power full stop.

      Given that you should "never attribute to malice what may be adequately explained by stupidity", and given everything I've heard about production code "going gold" while still rough polished brass, that's going to be a lot of third party SUID security holes. I'd say that the difference in protection quality amounts only to guarding against local user ignorance/stupidity... which, mind you, is not a bad thing, but is not the same thing as protection against remote cracker malice.

      --
      //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    52. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Proaxiom · · Score: 1

      I was actually referring to the fact that a few special privileges in NT are limited to the Local System account, and are not available to any users including administrators.

    53. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 1

      It may be an issue with the 3d accelerated video card driver that I use but q3a needs to run as root on my RedHat 6.1 box.

    54. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      Could you please elaborate on how 95/98/ME users have more access than NT admins?

      Direct access to the hardware.

    55. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by pthisis · · Score: 1

      given everything I've heard about production code "going gold" while still rough polished brass, that's going to be a lot of third party SUID security holes. I'd say that the difference in protection quality amounts only to guarding against local user ignorance/stupidity...

      I disagree, strongly. Limiting the window of time when root code is running and its exposure to inputs from malicious sources can be extremely important in general, and in many cases may be "good enough". Imagine the common case of a game that requires Admin privs to implement some copy protection scheme, where the game is a multiplayer networked game.

      If the game is run as Administrator, then any remote exploit in the game elevates to Admin privs on the local machine.

      If the game uses a small suid helper to do some copy protection stuff at startup, the suid helper can exit before any network code is started. Remote exploits are limited to the privs of the user.

      The suid program may even be buggy as heck itself, but if it never takes input that might be from a malicious source then a fairly class of exploits are protected against.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    56. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Ytsejam-03 · · Score: 1
      And since the first thing developers do when they get their new PC is complain that they have to have admin rights, they never find out that their install routines don't work if they aren't admin.
      And this is an excuse for not testing their apps as a non-admin?

    57. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by x0n · · Score: 1

      Eh, I respectfully disagree. As an administrator, I admin the machine, ergo I decide what gets installed and what doesn't: that's the whole point. Software -- including games -- may elect to install or update system level DLLs which logically requires root level access to the machine. Not everything is a statically linked monolithic binary. Directx exists as a global level service. Cheat detection software needs full access to the machine. CD protection software also may require admin access. Remember, we're talking Windows here, not *nix. So stop comparing the two in such a simplistic manner. Software on *nix is generally compiled by the user before install and dynamically linked to whatever glibc etc is on the machine. Windows does not work like that, as you know.

      Now, at this point, we could argue what constitutes an install: copying a single file tetris.exe, as per your example, and running it from your own home directory. Does that qualify as "installation?" It really depends on how you define it. Anyhow, it's not as simple defined as you imply.

      - Oisin

      --

      PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
    58. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by x0n · · Score: 1

      errr, that's what I'm saying. I agree with you. I think I should have quoted the first sentence.

      - Oisin

      --

      PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
    59. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      , I admin the machine, ergo I decide what gets installed and what doesn't:

      Do you decide when the user may copy individual *.DOC files to the hard-drive? Those are being "installed"- why, they may even contain executable code...

      may elect to install or update system level DLLs which logically requires root level access to the machine

      It is a shortcoming of the OS design that the game cannot use the DLLs it needs without installing them in a system-global location. (Alternatively, you could label it a shortcoming of the installer system- but that should be part of the OS)

      The fact that games need to run at "root" level is what's being complained about here- but the excuse was made "they don't really need priviledges to run, only to install". Well, that doesn't hold water if the game includes system-level DLLs- effectively, if it's using those DLLs, it is "running as root".

      Does that qualify as "installation?"

      Yes, by any concievably sane definition of "installation".

    60. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by cicho · · Score: 1

      This is exacerbated by the fact that so many Windows applications require the user to have Administrator authority"

      Isn't the same true on Linux? I remember reading (three years ago or so) that 3D shooters required superuser privilege to access video devices. It may no longer be the case these days, I don't know.

      --
      "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
    61. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by x0n · · Score: 1
      Right, you clearly are a very confused person:

      The fact that games need to run at "root" level is what's being complained about here- but the excuse was made "they don't really need priviledges to run, only to install". Well, that doesn't hold water if the game includes system-level DLLs- effectively, if it's using those DLLs, it is "running as root".

      Two problems with this paragraph: Firstly, my conversation with you does not concern the point that games shouldn't need root to run, I agree; However, I offered the idea that games that require admin rights to install seem perfectly reasonable to me. This is the point you are refuting in your prior replies, and is the point I'm trying to adhere to. Secondly, to say that a user-space game program executing which happens to load a global system level DLL is "running as root" is complete nonsense. A game that is dynamically linked, for example, to the MSVCRT C++ runtime does not run as "root". There is *NO* concept of setuid behaviour in Windows, you are clearly confused.


      - Oisin

      --

      PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
    62. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 1

      That is not bad at all, from a security point of view, but it is waaay to much twiddling for me. And I run Gentoo unstable... Very few would ever go through the pains to set such a thing up.

      However, if it was automated, either that the distro set such things up for every user, or there would be a good tool (not like all these hopeless firewall tools that manage to be both GUI and harder than commandline iptables) I would not say no thank you to that. Problems quickly arises though when the need comes to identify which programs should go where, when installing separate stuff (say Thunderbird).

      Otherwise, not a bad idea as such. =)

    63. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by phek · · Score: 1

      practically everyone who uses Windows logs on as Administrator,

      I think this is going to be a huge problem once (if) microsoft makes a version of windows that is actually secure. Microsoft trained millions (even billions?) of people that once you can type at a keyboard, you can use anything on the system that you want, which isn't a secure method. Now when microsoft first released DOS in `81, multi user systems had already been around for around 10 years, networking had been around for about 5 years (i think TCP/IP came out in `75 could be wrong though). So computer experts (which microsoft claimed to have) knew in `81 that systems needed multi-user acces in order to preserve one users files from anothers. Now microsoft chose to ignore this fact completly for 14 years, and even windows 95/nt 3.5 were HORRIBLE examples of implementing this and until windows 2000 came out, it really didn't matter what user someone logged into, they could easily access other users files. Then 2000 came out and it was actually possible to secure your files from someone else, but by default, anyone could still access anyone else's files so we still don't really have any access control for the normal user. Now XP comes out, about 20 years after their first release of DOS release and obviously people don't understand why an admin user is different than a regular user, they just know they have limitations with a regular user, so of course everyone chooses to make their user the admin, which, at least as of the latest version of xp that i've seen, is the default when you create your first user, to make that user the admin user.

      So obviously you can't blame users for not understanding multi-user access when for the past 23 years a company is telling them theres only one user, then all of the sudden the company tries to say that it's the users fault for not understanding what this new admin user does. Back before DOS came out, microsoft had another OS called Xenix which was a unix platform, and I'm pretty sure that that was a multi-user system, so you can't say microsoft was unaware of security pitfalls of only having one user. Microsoft just went and tried to market a single user os, knowing full well from the beggining that it was insecure, then 20 years later after it's been blowing up in their face for the past 10, they try to act as if until recenetly no one needed multi-users, but now that "hackers" are here, they're trying to prevent them by turning their system into a multi-user system, which they should have done in the first place.

      </rant>

    64. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      What if an application includes a library? How can I install that as a user? And even if I can install a library somewhere in my home directory, how do I alter ld.so.conf to recognize that directory? Or can users have their own ld.co.conf files?

    65. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by pthisis · · Score: 1

      However, if it was automated, either that the distro set such things up for every user, or there would be a good tool

      What counts as good?

      e.g. if there was a JailService script where you could say:

      sudo JailService mozilla joe-mozilla
      sudo JailService pine joe-pine

      and it set up the user accounts for that, copied over configs, added /home/joe/bin/mozilla that automagically ran mozilla as joe (similar for pine), and updated the Gnome configuration to use those services, would that be sufficient? (along with little things like symlinking ~/incoming/mozilla to ~joe-mozilla/incoming so that you could save files)

      would that be enough to get you to use it?

      This is really something that distros should have as an option out of the box, at least for the browser and mail reader.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    66. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's one big problem.

      the other big problem is it's next to impossible to remove shit you don't want.

      sure, I can remove outlook, IE and wmp. but it ain't easy, and I can only do it on a whole network basis because we have our own build.

      and don't start on the services. I'm fed up with the idea that win whatever is ok, and it's our fault. it's their freaking fault, they write crap software and then make it next to impossible to remove. turning off the crap services they turn on at bootup is not easy. you have to know quite a lot. and then on top of that, after you buy windows, then you buy office, you then have to buy a firewall and an AV. and you're still not secure! after 100s of $ shelled out.

      lets face the truth, windows really does blow goats.

    67. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 1

      Yeah, maybe... :)

      I think it needs some more additions: like a flag that could specify that this application is a mail client, and so gets firewall access to IMAP, POP and SMTP (maybe with fine-tuning available). Then there are two routes from there, either have a user 'joe-mail' that you could map all email applications to in this way, that already has these firewall rights, or you create a new user as above that gets added to the firewall.

      I think I'd have this approach:

      * Define lots of standard protocols and groups of those, like pop, imap or the group of all those, mail.
      * Have the command 'sudo JailService pine options' where options are protocols and groups etc.
      * If there is a user that matches the options, use that - otherwise create a user (joe-imap-smtp) that matches first.
      * Add appropriate rules to iptables, user + protocols
      * Of course, configs and stuff (KDE for me, please ;-)

      Not really fleshed out, but something along those lines could be a good base, I think. Most people would just use the shortcuts mail, browser, ftp and so on, but it would allow for more tuning too.

      Then there is the matter of config files - one would need to keep track of all of those too, in the cases there are any... for a system like Gentoo, maybe the portage system could be queried, I'm not really sure how other systems are, but if they installing the files, the data should be somewhere.

      Well, I do like the idea. I'm not sure when it would get 'easy enough' but it would be totally awesome if it was easy enough for "most", never mind me - and like you said, distros should maybe already do this.

      The point is that it seems, and most of the time actually will be, "unnecessary geek extras" - until you get hit, of course. So it must be really easy, on the verge of automated (and possibly forced) for it to happen on any bigger scale than a few people. It could well pay off big time though.

    68. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Secondly, to say that a user-space game program executing which happens to load a global system level DLL is "running as root" is complete nonsense.

      If the DLL was included with the game, it is part of the game. (And if the DLL wasn't included, then why's the game need administrator to install again?)

      Sure, maybe the DLL in question was written by Microsoft as a redistributable Visual Studio or DirectX component... but maybe not.

      For any executable code delivered with a game, you must trust the game publisher as to what it contains. For all security purposes, at least, it is an extension of the game.

      A game that is dynamically linked, for example, to the MSVCRT C++ runtime does not run as "root".

      I'm not talking about games loading DLLs installed as part of the OS, or some systemwide upgrade patch- but DLLs which the game itself provided.

      If it's genuinely IMPOSSIBLE to install a DLL without administrator rights, then that DLL must have some special priviledges when executing. And if it does, and the DLL came with the game, then the game could be using it to do anything; "run as root". On the other hand, if the DLL when executing does not have any special privs, then it should've been possible to install without admin privs, and we've come back to a different flaw of the OS.

      Videogames are frivolous. As amusing diversions, they should not demand a security audit before install. From the "sanely paranoid" perspective, if a game needs to be given admin rights at any time, then it's a risk to the other data on your PC.

      It is not secure system design to accept games requiring admin privs to install; for all you know, it could be abusing that priv to modify core system DLLs, meaning it will essentially keep those privs forever.

    69. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by plover · · Score: 1
      OK, that's a good explanation I can live with.

      However, I can still criticize XP for creating home user accounts as admin authority. The latest version of Mandrake I checked out brings up a nice little box explaining 'root' in a few high-level sentences, and then forced me to create a non-root user ID for my daily work.

      Granted, given my background, the concept of 'root' was not foreign to me the way it might be to a new computer purchaser. But if it was presented as the "Installer" account they could have avoided the whole admin mess from the get go. They would have had a single point of installation for a computer, and isolated the users to boot.

      Then, an installer run from a user account that thought it needed to be admin would cause Windows to pop up a message box saying something like, "This installation must be run under the Installer account. Click here to logoff, then click the Installer icon to continue. If it was not your intention to install software right now, you may be seeing this because of a virus attack." That would not only enforce the separation of authority but it would screamingly enforce vendors to produce installation packages that adhered to all the security rules. No vendor who wants to stay in business would ever want to be associated with a screen saying something about a "virus."

      As it is, my home box is now thoroughly hosed as far as security settings go. Cross pollination of my account with my son's files, etc., ensures that I no longer have the option to make ANY accounts non-admin without causing severe runtime headaches. Some of the "Shared pictures" from our digital camera might have NTFS permissions that would allow only me to view them, thus causing my wife to hate me. It's a mess, and the default settings both created and encouraged the mess.

      Thanks for the info!

      --
      John
    70. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by plover · · Score: 1
      OK, I agree with you -- to a point. But please see this reply to a previous post for my explanation as to why I still consider MS to be at fault.

      Summary: I'm wrong, you're right -- it's not be the fault of the architecture of the security model on the inside, but they've pointed and clicked our way to poor security practices.

      --
      John
    71. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So, what do you think will happen if it can be proven that the copy-protection methods the Content lobbies (RIAA/MPAA/BSA) are using are a threat to Homeland Security?

      a lot of /.ers' heads exploding, no, wait, they are both bad so they will annihilate each other, so we will have neither content lobbies nor homeland security department :) it all depends who has the most dough.
    72. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another part of the problem is one of file access as I have encountered while creating installers for Windows apps.

      As has already been mentioned, a good proportion of installers require admin rights. This has always been due to the requirement to add or update files within the Windows or Windows\System32 directories (in my experience anyway).

      When an user installs something, they become the owner of that(those) item(s). When another user wants to update those files, they require elevated user priviledges in order to do so. Within XP Pro, that can be a Power User level account but of course in XP Home, that doesn't exist. The only option is to use an Admin level account.

      The only way I have discovered of 'fixing' this problem is to write an additional application the modifies the actions a standard user can perform on all of the files created by the installer. This may be because of the installer that I use and it may be possible to do this in a non-botchy way in other installer creation programs.

      This of course is only the case when the problem is due to file access but might give insight to other apps not working very well.

    73. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The user can set LD_LIBRARY_PATH which will be searched by the dynamic loader at run time. You can also use -R/-rpath at link time to set the location of dynamic libraries directly in the executable(this can also be modified at install time/run time, but this is more difficult). Then, of course, you could always use static linking. These methods all have pluses and minuses associated with them, but usually at least one will prove sufficent to run an application from a user's home directory(at least, this is true in my experience).

    74. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      But MS chose to use technology that requires admin priveledges to run. I think more than "some" blame attachs to MS. Granted a good deal attachs to Macrovision.

      Also, one of the reasons for an OS in the first place is to *remove* the need for "all access everywhere" by providing regulated access to system resources.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    75. Re:The UNIX vs MS Windows discussion is lacking by versus · · Score: 1
      It may have something to do with backwards compatibility with Windows 9x. In that case, yes, the application probably could have littered itself with millions of 'if (WindowsVersion >= 4) SafeFunction() else UnsafeFunction() calls, each of which would have killed performance dead.

      wrap (Un)safeFunction() with MyFunction() and you're set.

      And one "if" is nothing compared to Windows API call, so it cannot "kill perfomance".

      --
      Brain is my second favorite organ.
  5. MS Bob by danormsby · · Score: 1

    I'd never heard of MS Bob until I read this article. Wonder why it wasn't called MS Bill?

    --
    Omnis amans amens
    1. Re:MS Bob by Short+Circuit · · Score: 2, Funny

      Because "Bill" brings to mind a redneck driving a truck with a gun rack. At least, it does for me. :)

    2. Re:MS Bob by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1

      They didn't have their billing system set up back then.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    3. Re:MS Bob by Ignignot · · Score: 0

      Every joke, every pun, done to death, really.

      -SG1

      --
      I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
    4. Re:MS Bob by jhylkema · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yes, and it was the brainchild (abomination) of one Melinda French . . . now Melinda Gates. It's the only genuinely "innovative" thing M$ has ever done and it was a miserable failure. A male project manager would have been summarily shown the door, but Melinda stayed in on her back.

    5. Re:MS Bob by fitten · · Score: 1

      ...sigh... makes me feel old ;)

    6. Re:MS Bob by Sepper · · Score: 1

      (abomination) of one Melinda French . . . now Melinda Gates.

      The basic idea was good (ie Computing based on task instead of application)

      But the implentation was pretty awful... At least Mircosoft had the sense to scrap the project... Some company would simply fall with it...

      --
      I live in Soviet Canuckistan you insensitive clod!
  6. Sure.. by stratjakt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most notably it includes probably one of the most fair and intelligent analysis of the Unix-Vs-Windows security issue that I have ever seen."

    Ok, so his thesis seems to be that Windows is insecure because it's too hard? Is this guy on crack?

    There are too many "knobs." The exposed interfaces are either too complicated, even with documentation, or too weak and limited. Security on Windows is hard to configure correctly (try setting up IPSEC).

    This guy can't seriously expect me to buy his argument that properly configuring a unix box is "easier", can he?

    This isn't a fair analysis, it's just more "MS is teh gay linucks is awwwwsome!!!!!11!" tripe.

    It's really not hard at all to secure Windows, and you can lock it down every bit as tight as any Unix if that's what you want to do. Just because people don't doesn't make it the OS's fault.

    How about all the newbies running their X sessions as root because it's the only way they can get the soundcard/dvd-r/tv-tuner/misc hardware to work?

    Is it Linux's fault that once you start piling OSS layers onto ALSA and jam the whole pile of shit into Gentoo's default devfsd setup, that it's a huge pain in the ass to get a non-root user to be able to play sounds? Cuz it is. Don't give me the bullshit about "all you have to do is add the user to the audio group" stuff.

    What about lazy fucks like me who quit trying to have their daemons chroot and su to another user, because every fucking time they type emerge -u world portage decides to change all the file permissions and ownerships around, so now all of a sudden slapd cant read or write it's data directory, hosts.allow and hosts.deny are no longer world-readable, etc, etc.. Fuck it, the only way to guarantee my LDAP server stays up is to have it run as root. And, of course, it has to stay up, else noone could log in.

    I can't remember which distro now, but it shipped with a single * in the xdm's Xaccess file - ie; anyone anywhere could get a local X session on it.

    What about every app that uses svgalib having to be suid root, or run as root. Those mythTV boxes and advanceMAME cabs are just big fat fuckin backdoor waiting to be exploited.

    The only point I'm trying to make is, any PC out there is no more secure as it's user/owner/admin and the apps they run. Most normal people dont enjoy spending 8 hours a day doing nothing but configuring their systems.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    1. Re:Sure.. by tomknight · · Score: 1
      Indeed, a good read of the "Hardening Windows 2000" doc that's floating around will go a long way towards making your W2k servers much more secure.

      --
      Oh arse
    2. Re:Sure.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!"

      You do realise this is a double negative and means that you do need instructions.

    3. Re:Sure.. by wwest4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Ok, so his thesis seems to be that Windows is insecure because it's too hard? Is
      > this guy on crack?
      > This isn't a fair analysis, it's just more "MS is teh gay linucks is
      > awwwwsome!!!!!11!" tripe.

      His thesis is actually more along the lines of (and I'm quoting from the Win v Unix section of the article):

      "Current Windows systems have some of the highest security ratings (as compared to other systems)... However, the number of documented security issues and the real-life rampant insecurity of Windows are not speculations either! The problems are real, both for Microsoft, and for Windows users."

      Nowhere here is he saying that MS sucks, or that linux r0x0rs. Again, from the sam part of the article:

      "We stated earlier that UNIX was not even designed with security in mind. Several technologies that originated on Unix, such as NFS and the X Window System, were woefully inadequate in their security."

      The argument that explains the paradox is along the lines of what many of us already know - that MS is more prevalent, has a wider spectrum of users (inexperienced to experienced) and exists in a wider range of vulnerable environments - not just cozy, isolated research labs.

      So while your arguments are valid, they don't really go against the overall opinion of the article.

    4. Re:Sure.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so his thesis seems to be that Windows is insecure because it's too hard? Is this guy on crack?

      No, you simply lack the cranial capacity to understand what he's saying.

      It's insecure because it's too hard to make secure, and it's easy to make insecure. There are multitudes of settings that interact with each other in subtle ways, and it's damn near impossible to know what they do.

      And even if you have things set properly, you *still* don't know for sure that you've properly secured the system.

    5. Re:Sure.. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      The only point I'm trying to make is, any PC out there is no more secure as it's user/owner/admin and the apps they run. Most normal people dont enjoy spending 8 hours a day doing nothing but configuring their systems.

      I agree, mostly. That said, how long it takes an admin to tighten down a box depends on how much experience he has with it. Don't ask an RHCE to tighten down Windows Server 2003, and definitely don't ask an MCSE to tighten down a Red Hat server.

      However, just about any user with a somewhat thorough understanding of the protocols and technologies involved can tighten either system, if given a book that explains where the configuration options are.

    6. Re:Sure.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      This guy can't seriously expect me to buy his argument that properly configuring a unix box is "easier", can he?

      See, for example, how to set up a private certificate server

    7. Re:Sure.. by Azrael+Newtype · · Score: 2, Funny
      You do realize that this is a direct quote from Aqua Teen Hunger Force, when Carl steals the Foreigner belt from Ignignoct in season 1 episode 8. He then proceeds to invoke the powers of "Hot Blooded," heating Ignignoct and Err and causing them to leave the pool, and subsequently Earth.

      God, why am I responding to someone responding to a damn sig, espcially an AC...

      --
      I'm always right and I can prove it, because to the best of my knowledge, I've never been wrong.
    8. Re:Sure.. by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is deeper than that, don't ask a RHCE to tighten down a Slackware or Gentoo box. Linux distros can be worlds apart. For instance, Slackware doesn't have /etc/init.d, it uses rc.d scripts, etc.

      They store config files in different places, with different names (ldap.conf vs nss_ldap.conf, etc). They install apps to different places, and so on and so on. Now we can deal with XFree vs X.org (migrating to X.org on Gentoo also broke, well, almost freakin everything I use, and I still don't know how to properly configure the new font paths for tightvnc)

      For that matter, don't ask a guy who's RHCE is a year old to secure a RedHat box, because for all you know, he doesn't know shit about, as an example, Samba 3.0's new config options or iptables (since he was taught ipchains). The OSS world likes to completely reinvent apps between revisions, for some reason.

      Whereas, one XP box is pretty much the same as the next, and not far removed for Win2k.

      I've had the same problems with both. I installed PuTTY in Windows as Administrator, tried to run it as a user, oops.. No user rights.. This is when you find out what kind of user you are. Do you switch to Administrator, screw around with permissions, and test until it works and you feel it's secure, or do you just go "fuck it" and add your username to the Administrators group so you don't have to deal with that kind of shit every day.

      I'm not ashamed to admit I'd put myself in the latter category. Screwing around with filesystem ACLs and group memberships isn't what I like to spend my time doing. My firewall/router is about the only "secured" box on my home lan, which is fine, since I lock the doors when I leave so the likelyhood of a script kiddie sitting down at one of my machines is low.

      There is a point to be made, and it's that it's nearly impossible to have the best of both worlds. It's either simple and painless to use (desktops), or super-hardcore secure (servers). Both OS's can function in both roles.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    9. Re:Sure.. by spronk · · Score: 1
      What about every app that uses svgalib having to be suid root, or run as root. Those mythTV boxes and advanceMAME cabs are just big fat fuckin backdoor waiting to be exploited.

      Do you have a clue what you're talking about? MythTV doesn't use svgalib, MythTV in no way requires you to run as root for anything, the MythTV protocol isn't open to RCE exploits (assuming you're stupid enough to not be behind a firewall in the first place).

    10. Re:Sure.. by CyberKnet · · Score: 1

      What about every app that uses svgalib having to be suid root, or run as root. Those mythTV boxes and advanceMAME cabs are just big fat fuckin backdoor waiting to be exploited.

      Contrary to what your post implied, MythTV does not use svgalib, nor does it require to run as root/suid root.

      It is quite possible to setup MythTV to run as its own unprivileged user that only has access to QT libs, X, the tv tuner, video out and some form of large scale storage.

      In fact, that is the most common way to set it up, because that is how the very verbose documentation instructs you to set it up.

      I freely acknowledge that it is time consuming to set MythTV up; but I would heatedly dispute that it has to be insecure because of any reason issued in your post.

      --
      Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
    11. Re:Sure.. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Is it Linux's fault that once you start piling
      > OSS layers onto ALSA and jam the whole pile of
      > shit into Gentoo's default devfsd setup, that
      > it's a huge pain in the ass to get a non-root
      > user to be able to play sounds? Cuz it is.
      > Don't give me the bullshit about "all you
      > have to do is add the user to the audio group"
      > stuff.

      Nope. It's Gentoo's fault. Unix in general has suitable authorization and automation facilities such that this should not be a problem for ANY user running anything newer than Slackware '96.

      The packager dropped the ball.

      The root user shouldn't even be able to touch the multimedia devices.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    12. Re:Sure.. by Amoeba · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Ok, so his thesis seems to be that Windows is insecure because it's too hard? Is this guy on crack?

      There are too many "knobs." The exposed interfaces are either too complicated, even with documentation, or too weak and limited. Security on Windows is hard to configure correctly (try setting up IPSEC).

      This guy can't seriously expect me to buy his argument that properly configuring a unix box is "easier", can he?

      You are purposefully misunderstanding his point. He was not stating that Windows is "harder" than unix to secure, merely that the "average" unix user will generally have a deeper understanding of how the underlying OS works as opposed to an "average" Windows user. Think about it.

      Unix has a larger barrier of entry in terms of learning the OS and understanding how it works until you get to a point where it is "usable". Windows on the other hand has a much lower barrier of entry and a deep understanding of the underlying actions of the OS are not required in order to utilize the system. As a result the complexity of securing unix systems is not as complex to the average unix user since they already have overcome that initial large barrier whereas Windows is more complex to the average windows user because they are faced with a magnitude of complexity they normally do not see.

      I do agree with you that Windows can be locked down thoroughly and be just as secure as a unix machine.

      --
      Do not taunt Happy-Fun Ball
    13. Re:Sure.. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      Familiarity with the way Linux systems work in general will help.

      Don't know where LDAP configration files are? Use a manpage, or "locate ldap". Don't know where apps are installed? Use locate again. The nature of the difficulty of XFree to X.org migration is something I'm unfamiliar with, though.

      If an app has been "reinvented" since the version he was trained on, he can look it up on the Internet. He'll be competent to know what sites to look at, etc. A Google search for "Samba upgrade caveats" might be all he'll need.

      There is a point to be made, and it's that it's nearly impossible to have the best of both worlds. It's either simple and painless to use (desktops), or super-hardcore secure (servers). Both OS's can function in both roles.

      I'm not disagreeing with you.

    14. Re:Sure.. by azaris · · Score: 1

      I've had the same problems with both. I installed PuTTY in Windows as Administrator, tried to run it as a user, oops.. No user rights.. This is when you find out what kind of user you are. Do you switch to Administrator, screw around with permissions, and test until it works and you feel it's secure, or do you just go "fuck it" and add your username to the Administrators group so you don't have to deal with that kind of shit every day.

      First of all, PuTTY doesn't require admin rights so it must have been a folder permissions issue. Secondly, the right way to do this is to use the "Run as..." context menu option and only run those few apps that require Administrator permissions under that context.

    15. Re:Sure.. by FuzzyBad-Mofo · · Score: 1

      Shut up and eat your cheese sandwich.. ;)

    16. Re:Sure.. by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Well, I have a hard time arguing that it's a "fair and balanced" opinion, given that one of his opening paragraph headings is "How Did Windows Become So Insecure?"

      Unless I've missed something on a previous page (which I admit is entirely possible), he's started from his conclusion ("Windows is not secure") and at best worked backwards.

    17. Re:Sure.. by mangu · · Score: 1

      Imagine an article about the sun (the star, not the company). It starts with "how did the sun become so bright?". Would you say it's a biased article? The author was simply commenting on a fact: Windows *is* insecure, there are tons of viruses and worms out there to prove it. One may ponder on the reasons for this, and maybe arrive to biased conclusions. One may discuss how to make Windows more secure, and the relative ease of the process may be debated. But just saying what everybody knows, that there are many Windows security exploits, shouldn't be considered an evidence of bias.

    18. Re:Sure.. by cazzazullu · · Score: 1
      The root user shouldn't even be able to touch the multimedia devices.

      Then who should? God himself? Georgy B.? Or that mystical hyperroot I once encountered when stoned ;)

      --
      int main(void) {while(1) fork(); return 0;}
    19. Re:Sure.. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Is it Linux's fault that once you start piling OSS layers onto ALSA and jam the whole pile of shit into Gentoo's default devfsd setup, that it's a huge pain in the ass to get a non-root user to be able to play sounds? Cuz it is. Don't give me the bullshit about "all you have to do is add the user to the audio group" stuff.
      What bullshit? It is just that easy. Change one line in an easy to understand config file, and you're good to go. No "huge pain in the ass" You don't have to "spend 8 hours a day doing nothing but configuring your system".

      What about every app that uses svgalib having to be suid root, or run as root. Those mythTV boxes and advanceMAME cabs are just big fat fuckin backdoor waiting to be exploited.

      If you're giving out shell accounts on your MAME cabinet, you deserve to be rooted. Ignoring the fact that you don't need to use SVGAlib to run either of those programs.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    20. Re:Sure.. by cthrall · · Score: 1

      > Whereas, one XP box is pretty much the same as the
      > next, and not far removed for Win2k.

      Until you migrate to Active Directory. Or you have to actually grovel through users, domains and groups. For a company that has been through three owners, has all three names, has locations around the world, etc.

    21. Re:Sure.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is also a cultural issue.

      Unix people are used to think in terms of security, while Windows people aren't.

      As an example, every book, course, manual on Unix administration makes a strong point of not login as root for everyday work and using su only when needed.

      In the Windows world this doesn't happen. Windows people are so used to run everything as administrator that they don't bother to do otherwise.

    22. Re:Sure.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's really not hard at all to secure Windows ever tried to uninstall outlook, ie and wmp from a home pc? windows really is bad, it's not a myth

  7. Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Windows enables things by default that enable exploits. This is done for ease of use. Users can make Windows secure.

    *NIX disables things by default. This is done for security. Users could make *NIX insecure.

    The number of different *NIXs makes it tedious to create viable exploits.

    In spite of what the guy says, I think most of us already knew this stuff. Have I missed anything?

    1. Re:Summary by fimbulvetr · · Score: 1

      I'm a huge *nix fan, but I call bs.

      Ever try Solaris? Even seen what that has enabled on the default install? How about HPUX? Perhaps even SCO?
      Redhat 7.2? All of these have more than 5 remote root exploits out of the box.

    2. Re:Summary by jimicus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Redhat 7.2

      Play fair. The article discusses Win2K and XP. RedHat 7.2 is a few years older than XP, and predates RedHat deciding not to enable everything by default.

    3. Re:Summary by gfecyk · · Score: 1

      "The number of different *NIXs makes it tedious to create viable exploits."

      Not to mention tedious to create viable applications.

      --
      Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
  8. The core security problem with Windows. by argent · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The core security problem with Windows is that Microsoft has been unable or unwilling to take advantage of the core security capabilities of Windows.

    It's more than just the fact that there are existing applications that expect to have write access to system directories and do other dengerous things, it's that Microsoft doesn't seem to be able to respond appropriately. For example, our early Citrix-based server showed the path to solving the problem of writing to system directories... it mapped system write access into the user's profile, and you had to switch to an explicit "installer" mode to actually modify things in the system.

    Microsoft owns that code now, it's surely in Terminal Server, but instead of implementing it they created a high level workaround... the sort ofthing you'd expect to see coming from a third party... that monitors the system and puts files back when they change. This not only breaks more applications than the old Citrix-style code did, but it provides another hiding place for viruses that manage to infect the repository or trick the system into backing them up.

    Similarly, the whole protocol/handler problem in Internet Explorer... or rather the Microsoft HTML control... (and being inexplicably copied by Apple and the KDE people) could be almost completely prevented by simply making the protocol and helper application binding the responsibility of the application calling the control instead of making the control guess whether the application it's calling is hardened for use by untrusted pages, and if not then it has to guess whether the page it's displaying is trustable or not.

    1. Re:The core security problem with Windows. by jafac · · Score: 1

      What should be MORE terrifying, is I was actually involved in a developer-support issue with WFP (Windows File Protection, the repository you're talking about - not sure what it has to do with Terminal Server's Install/Execute mode crap). - and it (WFP) was "behaving in a manner highly inconsistent with Microsoft's documentation". It was totally fucking with our backup/restore software (if you restore a file, WFP will silently replace it with whatever IT had backed up in it's "repository" directory).

      Over a period of weeks, I was shifted from developer to developer in trying to troubleshoot what was really a very simple problem, VERY easily provable with Filemon. What was terrifying, was that Microsoft simply FAILED to find a single one of their developers who had any idea how WFP worked, or what it did. In the end, they told me to tell my customer that WFP behaves as we observed, not as how Microsoft documented it. I asked them to write a KnowledgeBase article documenting this. AFAIK, they never did.

      Fucking scary.
      (\no longer work for the Backup software company, software has been end-of-lifed).

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  9. A better article on Solaris 10 security by sczimme · · Score: 3, Informative


    is here.

    As an aside, items like ASET and RBAC are not new for S10; IIRC they have been included since S8.

    Or instead of reading about these things, individuals can download the Solaris 10 Beta 5 ISOs and try them out. Go to this page and scroll to the bottom to Solaris Express.

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
    1. Re:A better article on Solaris 10 security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >As an aside, items like ASET and RBAC are not new for S10; IIRC they have been included since S8.

      ASET has been around longer than that. It's been there since at least Sol 7. It might have been in 5.6 as well, but I don't have access to a Solaris 5.6 box at the moment.

  10. CC evaluation? Orange book? by winchester · · Score: 3, Informative

    I more or less disagree with him on his treatment of the Windows adherence to the CC and Orange book standards.

    Even though Windows 2000 is EAL 4+ certified, that doesn't mean it is a secure system. On the contrary, the protection profile Microsoft chose to use specifically states that the threats Win2k should guard against do not include either malicious outsiders or malicious users.

    A more or less similar situation exists when we regard the C2 certification for Windows NT. That certification is obtained only when using a NT 4 system with several subsystems removed and no network access.

    Both certifications sare the facts that a very specific hardware-software combination has been audited. This is so extreme that EAL 4+ is only valid for a Windows 2000 system with a very specific set of patches applied (SP2 and 1 patch IIRC). In other words, totally useless for any serious real-world application.

    1. Re:CC evaluation? Orange book? by arivanov · · Score: 4, Insightful

      These evaluations are evaluations on procedures in handling data. They are not evaluations on system breakability and security against unauthorized break-in as such. They are evaluations on suitability of a system to handle confidential data according to some predefined requirements.

      Basically a EAL or Orange book certified system will not allow casual transfer of data from a higher security level to a lower security level. That is the core of the qualification concept. All the stuff about admin roles, etc is just fluff oriented towards managing the concept and the granularity to which it is managed.

      After the wave of buffer overrun hacks that followed the publishing of Alef1's paper "Smashing the Stack for Fun and Profit" in 1996 I had a conversation with the security head of a bank-to-bank transfer house head of security. We were discussing what can we do about intrusions like this. His first suggestion was to raise the security level to B1 or higher. At which point I had to point to him that all intrusions were circumventing the security mechanisms, not breaking through a problem in them so the Orange Book level of security did not bloody matter at all.

      On a similar note, Old SCO OpenServer 3.x which had C2 certification was quite hard to hack in its normal mode of operation. Raising the system to C2 and the enabling of roles required to do so made the system a walkthrough. It took me around 5 minutes to get root on it by doing casual operations, no real hacking involved.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    2. Re:CC evaluation? Orange book? by McMuffin+Man · · Score: 1

      Having taken a couple products through Common Criteria (CC) certification, I can tell you that every CC certificate out there applies only to a very specific set of patches (that's a requirement of the certiication process), and that every Protection Profile (PP) I've read is either full of holes or so tight as to make a system useless without violating the configuration spec. Admittedly, some are more full of holes than others, but your presentation makes it sound like the flaws inherent in the process are specific to Microsoft.

      Another reply to this thread seemed to confute Orange Book and CC. While a CC PP can be defined to focus on protection of confidential data (and even to mimic Orange Book style MLS), that is not a basic limitation of CC. Most firewalls that are certified, for example, have PP's that cover protecting the security policy from alteration by unauthorized entities.

    3. Re:CC evaluation? Orange book? by megarich · · Score: 0

      Security is a funny thing. You can have the most secure "unbreakable" machine on the planet but leak at the root password to the wrong hands, well your unbreakable machine just turned into a pile of shit....

    4. Re:CC evaluation? Orange book? by randombit · · Score: 1

      Basically a EAL or Orange book certified system will not allow casual transfer of data from a higher security level to a lower security level. That is the core of the qualification concept. All the stuff about admin roles, etc is just fluff oriented towards managing the concept and the granularity to which it is managed.

      Ummmmmm... no. Multilevel security was only a requirement in the Orange Book of level B1 or higher. C1/C2 evaluated systems did not need any sort of MLS. There are Unix-based MLS systems (Trusted IRIX was evaulated at either B1 or B2, IIRC), but they are not common, and generally pretty painful (an attribute shared with all other MLS systems). In normal Windows or Unix systems, there is no labeling of data, there are nwhich would be kind of a waste of money, but hey.o controls preventing you from sharing information with other users, none of that. And for good reason - MLS is about information control, while people generally get work done by *sharing* information. The only people who want MLS are the military/intel groups, and from what I've heard, most of the people using it there don't like it much either.

      As for CC, there is absolutely no requirements whatsoever in terms of protection. With the right proection profile, you could probably get MS-DOS to EAL2 at least. In this case the profile would say "this OS doesn't do anything security-wise", and then the evaulation would prove that this protection profile was correct.

      Also, it's Aleph1, not Alef1. Hebrew letter (or, in this case, a Hebrew letter + number, specifying a transfinite number). /tangent

    5. Re:CC evaluation? Orange book? by scruffyMark · · Score: 1
      His equation of assurance levels to orange book certification levels is just silly. Am I the only one to be bothered by this?

      The orange book certification level describes a set of security properties - the CC equivalent is a protection profile (PP). The assurance level describes the depth of testing that went into confirming that the particular protection profile is met by a product.

      Controlled Access Protection Profile (CAPP) corresponds pretty much to C2. Whether a product is evaluated against CAPP to EAL 1 or 7, it will always correspond to C2 - just that the evaluators are stating more or less certainty in the results.

      So, Win2k got evaluated against CAPP to EAL 4 - that corresponds to C2, not B1, no matter what the EAL was.

      --

      What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht

  11. Solaris 10 is so nice by chegosaurus · · Score: 1

    I'm very impressed with zones, the resource control and monitoring are even better than in 9, dtrace is just about the coolest thing I've ever seen on Unix, and zfs and the souped-up NFS look great too. (Though I haven't had the chance to play with those yet,)

    Nice to see Sun can still innovate.

  12. frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by spoonyfork · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I'm still getting MyDoom.o emails. It spread like wildfire inside the company I work at. No update pushed to McAfee on workstations until the next day after the infection. After... the barn door is already open and horses are gone. Be sure to shut that barn door after everything is compromised.

    On this Windows box at work I'm protected from thousands upon thousands of viruses except the one that gets written tomorrow and the idiot that opens its brilliantly socially-engineered email attachment.

    This is rhetorical and wishful: when are we going to get some anti-virus software that protects us before an outbreak?


    (please don't say don't run Windows, it is realistic but not realistic today right here)

    --
    Speak truth to power.
    1. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by Kristoffer+Lunden · · Score: 1

      I know a lot of people that use Windows, and use it in large "Joe User"-offices, that never ever gets any viruses.

      This is due to two things: Behaviour and a Personal Firewall. Most of these people also runs anti-virus software, but it is never needed - still, it feels safe to have and can't really hurt (other than costs). Behaviour means not doing too much stupid stuff, and it often but not always include not using Outlook or IE, at least too much.

      Check out some software firewall, Kerio used to be a good choice when I ran Windows, although I've heard the newer versions are pretty bloated and stupid. There are others as well.

      That, together with some simple common sense keeps a lot of people very safe.

    2. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by t1m0r4n · · Score: 1

      I'm still getting MyDoom.o emails. It spread like wildfire inside the company I work at....
      This is rhetorical and wishful: when are we going to get some anti-virus software that protects us before an outbreak?
      (please don't say don't run Windows, it is realistic but not realistic today right here)

      When you say, "don't run Windows", do you mean on the mail server? Off the top of my head, I know of this procmail tweak which can do wonders to stop new virus type threats when set up wisely. I've seen it put to good use at a few places that use Windows desktops. I would imagine that if one was a bit clever, there should be a similar solution on Windows servers also.

    3. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by mrroach · · Score: 1

      One tactic that I have used successfully for some time is to "sanitize"[0] potentialy destructive attachments on incoming emails.

      This means that .exe files get renamed to whatever.exe.bin and the content type gets changed to application/binary. This way a user has to really want to run that executable, and know how. I also have it dig into zip and tnef files and do the same there.

      Now that I think of it, this is sort of a poor-man's executable bit. It doesn't actually prevent execution, it just adds another step (that isn't just an "are you sure?" dialog) to the process.

      -Mark

      [0] http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/procmail-securit y.html

    4. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (please don't say don't run Windows, it is realistic but not realistic today right here) Run Linux.

    5. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      the simple answer to your question is to dump McAfee in favor of an AV solution that uses profile based heuristic scanning in conjunction with the signature based scanning that most AV scanners use... that way, it will not only recognize the 'named' viruses, but the ones that match characteristics with it as well..

      there is truthfully very little innovation in the virus community, outside of a few examples, so a scanner configured to look for known viruses and those that look similar to known viruses is going to catch almost everything...

      in short, don't blame MS because McAfee and Symantec refuse to innovate.. just find a company that does...

    6. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      This is rhetorical and wishful: when are we going to get some anti-virus software that protects us before an outbreak?

      Are you sure it doesn't already for some new viruses? We wouldn't even notice if that hapened.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    7. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent recommendation regarding the Kerio Personal Firewall -- this has saved me from viruses several times over the years where I work.

    8. Re:frustrated with "anti"-virus on Windows by satans_advocate · · Score: 1

      This is rhetorical and wishful: when are we going to get some anti-virus software that protects us before an outbreak?

      I'm currently evaluating F-Secure. It looks to be all that and more, now if I could just figure out their confusing pricing scheme. :(

  13. Windows will be secure, next time! by Bwerf · · Score: 1

    A very interesting thing about the comparison in the end of the article is that he looks at all the different OSs as they are right now. Except for MS Windows, where he says, it has good chances of being secure when the next SP is released... Isn't this always the case with MS products? "we know something is f*cked up, but it will be fixed in the next version, promise!".

    Maybe he's just propagating what MS is saying there though, since the rest of the analysis doesn't suffer to badly from this.

    --
    If noone rtfa, then what's the slashdot effect?
    1. Re:Windows will be secure, next time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sätt dig själv i centrum, slå följe med A-lagarna

      Skål på dig!

  14. Mac security circumstances? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The security "philosophy" of the Mac platform, and of the Mac community, is immature yet. While Mac OS X has a good amount of circumstantial immunity against malware, it is significantly lacking in its security paraphernalia as compared to the cutting edge feature-set found in its competitors. The difference is more stark on the server side, where the competition is stiffer.

    Isn't this argument sort of like saying that Macs are only secure because they are obscure?

    I have read OS penetration has little to do with security. Additionally, with Mac OS X there is a BSD underpinning that utilizes ipfw. OS X is shipping with a strong firewall built in, that doesn't seem circumstantial to me. Does this mean the the BSD's are also circumstantially secure?

    I am not saying OS X is completely secure, I have seen the recent exploits, but certainly Mac OS X security is methodical and planned since its roots are from a relatively secure BSD.

    Maybe I am reading too far into the above statement. I am not more educated in this subject than the author, but it certainly seems like an unfair treatment of a relatively secure OS.

    1. Re:Mac security circumstances? by scruffyMark · · Score: 1
      He doesn't know gobsmack about the feature set in OS X, he's just spouting what he's heard elsewhere.

      Incidentally - it's true that the firewall is a nice up to date ipfw; unfortunately the firewall GUI is seriously braindead - turn firewall on or off, allow or deny particular services, that's all.

      --

      What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht

    2. Re:Mac security circumstances? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Urm ... are you sure you know what *you* are talking about? Any pointer to evidence to the contrary to what he's saying?

      Until then, I'd rather believe him because I think he knows what he's talking about more than you can comprehend. Try to read some of the material in these links:

      www.kernelthread.com/mac

      www.kernelthread.com/mac/apme

    3. Re:Mac security circumstances? by scruffyMark · · Score: 1
      You're probably right that he knows more about OS X than I thought.

      I admit I was prejudiced against him as soon as I read the bit in about the third section on common criteria - which he clearly misunderstands - and so I was perhaps overly skeptical of what he said from there on in...

      --

      What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht

    4. Re:Mac security circumstances? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since the author asked for constructive feedback, I sent him an email about the common criteria issue you were pointing out. His response basically says that he already explicitly mentioned that the orange book equivalency is _approximate_, and pointed me to the following pdf on the CC web site, which suggests similar equivalency. Bottom line: mappings can be used to explain the new ratings in light of the old, but are not strict. So their use is not totally out of whack, if you take it with a grain of salt.

      CC Introduction

  15. It managed to crash IE six times while printing by TrogL · · Score: 1

    No, I can't install anything else, I don't manage this desktop. I do UNIX for a living. The printed output also looks horrible. Be that as it may, an excellent article. I could have spent all day meandering around his site. I did read most of the history of Apple and a bit about Mac operating systems, but duty calls.

  16. A friend once told me by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 1

    He was not stating that Windows is "harder" than unix to secure, merely that the "average" unix user will generally have a deeper understanding of how the underlying OS works as opposed to an "average" Windows user. Think about it. The difference between Windows users and Unix (Linux) users, (and the reason Linux boxes tend to be more secure) is that Winodws users install drivers - Linux users write their own drivers. This was true at his company, at least. (he manages routers, etc at a fortune 500 securities trading company).

  17. Oh-oh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you folks are ANYTHING like me, the first thing you read was the section Windows-v-UNIX. The author's points were non-biased and well thought out. That 'forced' me to read the rest. The article is now being routed through all my buds (PHBs, UNIX and Windoze Sys Ads, Developers), both in company and in other venues. A lot of 'intelligent' conversations will be started on this subject - again! It is unfortunate that some of us keep trying to get proof for our point of view instead of trying to see the other side of things.

  18. Misinformations Synthedic fluff? by LifesABeach · · Score: 0

    "Most notably it includes probably one of the most fair and intelligent analysis of the Unix-Vs-Windows security issue that I have ever seen."

    after reading the anchor i can only conclude the following:

    1. the author makes references to certain things about windows that i cannot easily verify. why?

    2. there is a great deal more said of apple computers than linux in a comparison of windows vs. linux. why?

    3. as for 'C2' clearance, that was 10 years ago, and on 'NT' which is not supported any more. what is the point of discussing DOD clearances of windows, but not of linux?

    the article is a fine begining, but it appears to be still an unfinished work in progress. i hope to get a chance to read the final work.

  19. List not accurate by p_trekkie · · Score: 1

    If you look at the article, you would see that administrative privileges are only one of the possible solutions for the problem. I've played Freelancer and Train Simulator as the totally powerless "guest" account on my XP computer without incident. I suspect that other items on the list may run as non-administrators as well, so suggesting that all those games will not run as administrator is misleading.

    1. Re:List not accurate by Vancorps · · Score: 1
      Personally, I've never met a game that required Administrative privs. A good chunk require elevated permissions to install but it is by no means a requirement.

      Of course, a good chunk of those games also require you to open multiple ports on the firewall so lets face it, you can't game on a computer that needs to be secured. Why not think ahead of situation like this? Spose not everyone has multiple computers

      Just seems a shame this copy protection stuff forces the user of administrative privs. I can't think of any other reason they wouldn't store all the settings in an xml config file. It can be done, I don't suspect things will change anytime soon though. Everyone assumes right now if it doesn't work right away then you need higher permissions rather than oh, granting permission to the one folder.

      Just a couple of my cents on this issue

  20. Eye Candy... by kevin_conaway · · Score: 1

    The material on his site is good but his layout has way too much eye candy. To me, its very visually distracting and hard to focus on the content of his article...thats just me though :)

  21. X WAS secure by original design. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "We stated earlier that UNIX was not even designed with security in mind. Several technologies that originated on Unix, such as NFS and the X Window System, were woefully inadequate in their security."

    Not true.

    X window HAD Kerberos authentication built in. Unfortunately, the US Government dictated that encryption was a "munition" and hence export controled.

    This, in turn, ment that X window had to have Kerberos removed....

  22. God save us all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy reads like frigging ESR.. shudder

  23. Not nice at all... by Idarubicin · · Score: 1
    There are too many "knobs." The exposed interfaces are either too complicated, even with documentation, or too weak and limited. Security on Windows is hard to configure correctly (try setting up IPSEC).

    You really shouldn't call Windows users that. They can't help it.

    And don't make me do a Beavis and Butthead laugh for following a comment about 'knobs' with one about 'exposed interfaces'.

    --
    ~Idarubicin
  24. and the most intelligent thing was by mattr · · Score: 1

    to not have a private opinion on windows. The page is down, was that a joke or was there something up once that got hastily removed?

  25. Developers don't have any excuses by gfecyk · · Score: 1
    The core security problem with Windows is that Microsoft has been unable or unwilling to take advantage of the core security capabilities of Windows.

    That started to change after Office 2000. That kits rus fine as a non-administrator on Win2K and later. It's all of the other developers I have to convince.

    --
    Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
    1. Re:Developers don't have any excuses by argent · · Score: 1

      It's more than just getting all the applications to run fine for non-administrators. That's neither necessary nor sufficient.

      Not necessary: even without getting everyone to fix that, Microsoft can use the software and capabilities they already have to allow badly behaved software to run without being able to write to %systemroot% or the NORMAL.DOT in the Office home directory.

      Not sufficient: even without administrator access you can cause endless problems for the user, so preventing the first step of an infection is really necessary.

      What technology does Microsoft already have that can help? Well... their GUI libraries have a rich API that allows an application to leave most of the GUI handling up to Windows, with Windows making callbacks to the applications when something exceptional is required.

      This same mechanism should be used in the HTML control, so that all the HTML control does is render HTML and run completely sandboxed internal scripts. For anything more (from resolving references in links on up to active content, helper applications, plugins, etc) it would make callbacks to the application to fetch data and run helper applications. Most applications could pass these callbacks on to a standard handler, but applications that need to perform more sophisticated tasks (like Windows Explorer, when it uses the HTML control to render web pages) or that are dealing with untrusted data (Outlook, IE), can handle these references and requests themselves.

      This would break the first link in the chain that most of the more agressive viruses and other malware use to get the "foot in the door" through Outlook and IE. Instead of the HTML control being tricked into running a handler that only makes sense from Windows Explorer, that handler simply wouldn't be visible from Internet Explorer... the only handlers that would be there in the global list that all applications would have available by default would be those that were designed for abuse. For example, they would deal with malformed data by aborting and returning an error rather than doing *part* of the job and letting the rest of the request in through the door...

      (I actually suggested Microsoft do this several years ago, when I was up in Redmond for the first of what became the regular "MOBIUS" shindigs for the Pocket PC... even back in 2000 it had been obvious to me for some time that this was a major problem)

    2. Re:Developers don't have any excuses by gfecyk · · Score: 1

      "Microsoft can use the software and capabilities they already have to allow badly behaved software to run "

      I'll bet you'd be surprised what they already do to get "badly behaved" software to run - allowing mutliple versions of the same DLL to coexist, loading the "right one" for the "right program," for example. That's an XP SP2 feature that's supposed to end "DLL Hell."

      "DLL Hell" is no one's fault except the developers whose software depends on "undocumented" or "broken" features.

      How about memory protection? An ancient capability intended to stop broken programs from breaking other programs. "A software fix in hardware, punishing good code because bad code exists," was the explanation I remember. Amigas could multitask without memory protection, and more efficiently, I recall. No one in the Amiga community let bad code go unpunished.

      I'm trying to fix broken behaviour here, not create workarounds to let broken behaviour continue.

      --
      Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
    3. Re:Developers don't have any excuses by argent · · Score: 1

      allowing mutliple versions of the same DLL to coexist, loading the "right one" for the "right program," for example.

      Versioned libraries are hardly new. Traditional BSD supported it by letting the application specify the path and name of the library (libfoo.so.3.0, for example, with the major number corresponding to API versions, the minor to bug fixes). AmigaOS let you specify the version you wanted in the OpenLibrary call. This is a technology that was old before NT was merely a proposed alternative to OS/2.

      No one in the Amiga community let bad code go unpunished.

      Until we discovered that letting people simply use MEMF_PUBLIC for all memory allocation calls meant that it was too late to take advantage of the hooks in the original API hat might have allowed for memory protection to be added...

      I'm trying to fix broken behaviour here, not create workarounds to let broken behaviour continue.

      Then you should be all on favor of changing the default API for the MS HTML control so that the calling application is finally able to rein in the near-criminal security flaws inherent in the current API.

  26. He should check out Temple ov thee lemur by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    His last suggestion is to put a system up and publicise the login but request that no-one tampers with it, just to see how people behave.

    He obviously missed this site from a few years back:

    http://totl.net/HonourSystem/

    From the guys that brought you the potato-powered PC....

  27. Games can run without Admin - Example here by gfecyk · · Score: 2, Informative
    Quake II XP? You better believe it.

    All I did was change where Q2 stored its saved games, downloads and configs. The result not only works just fine as a non-admin, but supports different settings for each user.

    Game developers, in fact all developers, have no excuses.

    --
    Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
  28. Favorite Quote by D3 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    This sums up America so well on so many levels.

    --
    Do really dense people warp space more than others?
  29. Same tired old arguments by MECC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the "Unix .vs. MS Windows" part, all I saw was a re-hashing of common miscomceptions, and little substantive on interesting info, and some revealing logic stumbles.

    "Windows is supposed to be an easy-to-use platform, while Unix is supposed to be cryptic and hard-to-use." - good grief. An ad-hoc conclusion like this pretty much points to a lack of actual logical analysis.

    "Microsoft's success, as reflected in their incredible market share, amplifies their security problems". So, giving an email client the ability to infect a system has nothing to do with it? The article seems to gloss over MS's efforts to graft its applications into its OS as part of the problem. By this logic, killing turkeys causes winter.

    "A potentially relevant issue is the phenomenal amount of resentment against Microsoft and Microsoft products that is seen in many circles." So, Microsoft's security issues are because people hate them. Get my violin.

    "'Security' is hard to formalize, hard to design (and design for), hard to implement, hard to verify, hard to configure, and hard to use. It is particularly hard to use on a platform such as Windows, which is evolving, security-wise, along with its representative user-base." ! He seems to be saying that windows security is evolving and its users are also 'security-evolving', and as as a result, windows security is getting worse. Well, wait a minute. Maybe he's right on that one...

    --
    "We are all geniuses when we dream"
    - E.M. Cioran
    1. Re:Same tired old arguments by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      "'Security' is hard to formalize, hard to design (and design for), hard to implement, hard to verify, hard to configure, and hard to use. It is particularly hard to use on a platform such as Windows, which is evolving, security-wise, along with its representative user-base." !
      Security is hard to bolt on to an existing design. It's not that difficult to design at the beginning.

      He seems to be saying that windows security is evolving and its users are also 'security-evolving', and as as a result, windows security is getting worse. Well, wait a minute. Maybe he's right on that one...
      Build a security fence around your property by evolving.
      Evolution will sometimes add a bit to cope with problems, but the general trend is for evolution to add more and more holes.
      You make a seive by punching holes in a container.
      You do not make a container by plugging holes in a seive.

  30. Re:Sure.. I know--easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...It's really not hard at all to secure Windows..."

    I know. Just pull the phone line or network cable from a Windows box and you're in the environment it was designed for. Security problem solved.

  31. Is it available in printable format? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reading a book directly at a computer's screen sucks big time.

  32. Missing something... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Windows enables things by default that enable exploits. This is done for ease of use. Users can make Windows secure.

    By making Windows "secure" by disabling stuff, you also usually break a lot of things that the user needs/wants.

  33. Re:Fr0st pist. by cazzazullu · · Score: 1
    hmm i get a lot of mail these days with similar content. is this another test of the slashdot bayesian BS-filter?

    --
    int main(void) {while(1) fork(); return 0;}
  34. NT & C2 Cert by TheOldBear · · Score: 1

    Its actually more restrictive than that.

    NT's C2 certifiaction was for a particular model of Compaq hardware [an old P5/EISA box] no network interface, and NT 3.5 [with specified patches].

    The certification did not include adding _any_ additional software or hardware to the basic configuration.

    --
    Caution: Do not stare into laser with remaining eye.
  35. Ditch McAfee, get Trend. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    We were a McAfee shop for years and it only worked half-assed most of the time, despite what you read in all the trade rags about who's got the best antivirus software. Last year we ran out of patience, and obtained eval copies of all the big name antivirus suites (email, fileserver, desktop, web filter, the usual corporate antivirus bundles), and set up a test lab with a Windows Server and 10 workstations in our training room to serve as a clean test bed to throw about 1000 different virii we'd collected at the test network and see how it handled it. We're actually a govt organization with 35 servers and 500 workstations, but the test setup was sufficient to prove what we wanted to find out. The top four products were: McAfee, Symantec, Trend Micro and Sophos.

    McAfee exhibited all the issues and problems we'd already known in our live environment.

    Symantec/Norton had so many install problems that we could even install it successfully. This was on plain vanilla, fresh installs of Windows 2000 Server and XP workstations. Their tech support expected us to go thru a bunch of troubleshooting nonsense, but when the damn installer keeps crashing, that speaks volumes about what kind of quality control (or lack thereof) that this company's products go thru. No thanks! Norton goes in the trash.

    Sophos seemed to work alright except for lack of support for all our email platforms, but their licensing practices and costs are complete bullcrap. Literally double the purchase and annual maintenance of the others. Not worth it.

    Trend Micro's "NeatSuite" bundle just simply worked. Correctly. The first time. Right out of the box. Plopped the cdrom in, clicked thru the default setup configs, and whammo -- smooth running antivirus solution with easy browser-based management of the server, "push" install to all the clients, that detected and uninstalled pre-exisiting McAfee and Norton, auto-updating that's invisible to the end users. Over-the-Internet updates of the scan engines and virus definition files to the local server, and then pushed out to the desktops works perfectly. We bought Trend and have been running it for almost 2 years now. Not one single virus has ever gotten thru since. Annual maintenance is a small bit pricier than McAfee or Norton, but not too bad. With the latest updates we even got a new feature that adds powerful attachment filtering capabilities, and spam and porn blocking to the email system. I wish we would have changed to Trend much sooner. Oh, and by the way, their stuff is available for Linux severs too. We can get updates for virus definitions scheduled every hour too, Trend's record for getting updated definition files published is exemplary, compared to what we had with McAfee.

    1. Re:Ditch McAfee, get Trend. by spoonyfork · · Score: 1

      Great response, thanks!

      --
      Speak truth to power.
  36. He says: No mirrors. by EvilStein · · Score: 2, Informative

    "This document is copyright © 2004 Amit Singh. All Rights Reserved.

    It is illegal to republish this document in any form (where "form" includes, but is not limited to, online publishing). You are allowed to make hard copies of this document if you so desire, provided it is for your own personal, non-commercial, and non-business related use. "

    Dunno, but I think that kind of sucks. "Hey, it's online, but it's illegal for you to mirror it."
    Oh well.

  37. Homeland Security Threat? Mod this up +1 Funny! by gfecyk · · Score: 1
    So, what do you think will happen if it can be proven that the copy-protection methods the Content lobbies (RIAA/MPAA/BSA) are using are a threat to Homeland Security?

    heh, beautiful. I've been looking for a good excuse to tell clients not to use Intuit Quickbooks - that thing requires Power User access just for its copy protection scheme. "It's a terrorist threat by Intuit to force you to compute insecurely!"

    Their competition, Simply Accounting, works just fine as a limited user.

    And DirectX, OpenGL work fine as a Restricted User. See Pan-Am's testing page for an example.

    --
    Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
  38. No, this is a fault of Developers (Microsoft too!) by gfecyk · · Score: 1
    No, this is a fault of Windows.

    No, this is a fault of the game authors. Windows supports gaming technologies for Limited Users just fine. See Pan-Am's testing page for an example.

    One thing common of all those Microsoft games, was that Microsoft didn't develop them - they contracted a third party to do it. Check the credits and splash screens to see for yourself. OK, with the exception of Flight Simulator, and even that was done by someone else at one point. Fault Microsoft for not enforcing their own rules on their contractors, but fault the contractors too!

    --
    Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
  39. Amit Singh?? by zoloto · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one who read that as Agent Smith the first few times? Wow, it must be a good day for me!

  40. From the article: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    L337?

    Another aspect of the clichéd portrayal of hackers is their supposed obsession with hexadecimal (and lots of numbers). Many books on hacking actually have chapter and section numbers in hexadecimal.

    uhm... now, i may not be a 'l337 h4x0r', but i would like to know where this aparent connection came from... where, in hex, does one find an 'L'? maybe this Amit Singh is talking about those malicious 4C 00 33 00 33 00 37 00 wintel h4x0r5?

    (sorry -- unicode slipped in... ;)

  41. MS exploits explained... by gillbates · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In this context, a rule-of-thumb definition of security is often cited: a system is considered secure if its "secure-time" is greater than its "insecure-time." Secure time is simply the time during which a system is protected, that is, free of "incidents". Insecure time is the sum of the time it takes to detect an incident and the time it takes to react to the incident (summed over all incidents in a given interval):

    I've never heard such a naive definition of security. Apparently, regardless of how many security holes my system has, or how many times I get hacked, I can call it secure as long as it can be recovered quickly.

    So, by this definition, my system is still secure even when:

    • A hacker exploits IIS and downloads all my customer names and CC numbers.
    • A hacker destroys all of my data from the last backup; as long as I can recover it quickly, data loss doesn't matter, right?
    • A hacker DDOS' our server and we lose several days worth of business. Our system is still up, so obviously it's not secure.
    • A hacker installs a rootkit on our server. You see, it doesn't matter if the box is owned, as long as its up and running, right?
    • A hacker zombies the machine and uses it to send SPAM, or worse, host illegal content.
    Need I go on?

    I don't think I could come up with a better explanation of why Microsoft will never design secure software than this one: they're definition of what constitutes a secure system is simply out of touch with the requirements of running a business.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  42. until SP2, OS X more secure than Windows. Period. by valmont · · Score: 1

    Like most security-related rants, this article fails to first scope what it intends to mean by security.

    I personally like to scope security as end-user security for someone using their computer as a client machine, NOT a server. Opening a shiny new box, plugging it on the network, and do very basic things most people do: check email and surf pr0n, sign-up for "free stuff".

    Right now, by plugging a brand new installation of XP onto an unprotected network, you get owned by Sasser within seconds. There were many before Sasser, among a few that come to mind are CodeRed and Nimda.

    How did those worms spread so fast? One easy answer: Services that users did not need were running on a default installation of the operating system. You woulda thought microsoft would have learned to turn all services off by default since 2001 for client machines. Nah. They've kept many open.

    Apple has been smart about this. It provides two very distinct operating systems: An end-user operating system, the mainstream Mac OS X, and a server operating system, aka Mac OS X Server. Apple knows to be humble about the network services it offers, even if most of 'em are open-source and quite mature, and KEEP THEM TURNED OFF on end-user, client machines. That's what regular Mac OS X is for. You can buy a new end-user Mac, plug it in a network, run nmap against it, and you'll get zero hits. Not one. Not a single network service is running by default.

    Virulent and devastating Worms and Viruses don't spread thru server machines, those tend to live in pretty-heavily firewalled networks. No. They spread thru END-USER machines.

    SP2 had better do one thing and do it real well to the average end-user client machine: TURN OFF ALL SERVICES.

    Beyond that, musing about security is mostly beating a very dead horse. Every single time you turn a network service on, you are opening yourself to infection risks. The OS architecture ought to mitigate those risks. A sysadmin with a clue or two will keep his server secure, regardless of what OS it runs, because that sysadmin knows security is about constant vigilance and works in many many layers.

    Again, when talking about security, people should scope the discussion within the distinction of end-user usage and server usage.

  43. I suggest you give FreeBSD a try by toadlife · · Score: 1

    "This guy can't seriously expect me to buy his argument that properly configuring a unix box is "easier", can he?"

    Easier - perhaps not, but granted you have adequate knowledge of both enviroments, securing a Unix box MUCH less tedious.

    "Is it Linux's fault that once you start piling OSS layers onto ALSA and jam the whole pile of shit into Gentoo's default devfsd setup, that it's a huge pain in the ass to get a non-root user to be able to play sounds? Cuz it is. Don't give me the bullshit about "all you have to do is add the user to the audio group" stuff."

    I can run my X Evironment, play mp3's, videos, and play America's Army all under my normal user account in FreeBSD. Perhaps you should give it a whirl? You should do it while you can though, as I hear BSD is dying. :D

    --
    I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
  44. A quote that bothers me by zbaron · · Score: 1

    The primary environment in which a typical Windows system exists has traditionally been hostile especially after the advent of the Internet. While Unix systems share the same environment today, their traditional environments were comparatively trusted: research labs and universities. Similarly, Unix users have had backgrounds differing from Windows users.
    So the "Internet" did not exist until after Windows ... sigh ...