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Technology Review Profiles Miguel de Icaza
prostoalex writes "Technology Review has a feature story on Miguel de Icaza, currently Novell VP of Product Technology, but more known as the leader of Gnome and Mono projects. Miguel is the man Don Box would like to see joining Microsoft for his "amazing amount of raw energy". If you read through the Technology review article, you will see that de Icaza was actually turned down by Microsoft at some point."
Is Miguel de Icaza as bloated as his creations?
I met Miguel, like, back in '98 at a conference in Mexico. Yes, Linux existed there back then!
We chatted and I quickly found he was more than just a Rob Malda or Rusty Foster, guys who talk the talk and get all the fame but can't back it up when it comes to lines of code per hour counts.
Miguel simply AMAZED me with his knowledge and skill. He ever opened up a digital projector and messed with the PROM or jumpers or something and fixed it within 20 minutes, just in time for his talk.
de Icaza is nothing short of amazing. I DO however question his judgement to kind of jump into the MS camp with MONO/.NET emulation, but I know that since he's smarter than me he must be doing the right thing.
If you liked my post,
i seem to recall a Slashdot sig or two quoting Miguel saying that he was a MS clipy fan.
/.'er would burn at the stake a man who had said so, but think for a sec before torching up those flames, kids.
...your world is *not* ruined by this man: change your config....ye that bitch and moan how easy it is to twiddle this and that in /etc/here or /etc/there. Yeah, i'm good with that, but gramps is not - what can he use? Gnome. Or Kde.
Many a
Clippy might have sucked and annoyed many of you, but think about those moments when grammy was looking about for a movie of the grandkids.
i know, i know...stretch, strech, but ponder for me your grand parents for a sec: what do they read/write/view email with? Yeah, l33tz as you may be, gramps needs some some help from time to time: Gnome does that. Period.
Gripe and bitch on the 'spatial this' and 'spatial that'
Save the zealotous mass, either is good, but Clippy has helped many a folk get "email"...your ub3r ass needs to realize these are not the folks that care for or about your sendmail/qmail/rfc gripes....they want the pics of the little grandkids.
Rip on Miguel as you like, but recall, this is a man that wants the linux desktop to prosper, regardless of what fanboy, ub3r wannabies latch on.
Let the quote go....listen to the spirit...you do want me to listen to the open source spirit don't you?
His Microsoft fetish is very suspicious I agree especially considering how much money Microsoft has t o influence open source leaders such as him.
This is why I believe the leadership should be completely decentralized and we should never idolize people like him. He should not be treated any different than any other good coder. Keith Packard is just as smart or maybe smarter, theres people all over the world who do what Miguel does and who produce better code and yet Miguel gets credit for producing stuff nobody cares about like Mono, or producing stuff and not using it or finishing it.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
I'd like to thank Miguel for his contributions. I'm a gnome user, and it is quite nice. What I don't get though, is why he seems absolutely fascinated with the boys in redmond. He reimplements Outlook, and now he's reimplimenting their reimplimentation of Java. Why not get behind an OSS implementation of the original ala kaffe or gcj, or push the OSS own Parrot?
Who cares what OS this man uses?
What use is this superficial knowledge? Read his code and learn, then replace him and make something better than Mono.
Otherwise its pointless to study him. Miguel is just a programmer.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
We need both types of people in the movement, but we do not need the leaders of the movement to be confused about what side they are on. Richard Stallman already provides the idealist leadership, but come on can you say Miguel even knows what side hes on? If Microsoft hired him he'd be working there. I don't really like the idea of the Linux movement being bought out by Microsoft.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
We don't need Mono, and even if we did need something like Mono why do we care if its perfectly compatible with Microsofts version? Should we be aiming for compatibility or something thats a generation ahead of what Microsoft is doing?
Compatibility is BS, if you have better software it beats compatibility 90% of the time. I'd prefer better software.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
The fork only just happened recently. Miguel did try to pump mono into Gnome and I'm sure he will release a ruined Microsofty version of Gnome at some point.
The man is founder of Gnome and his claim to fame was dissing KDE for not having the right ideals. Now its time to diss Miguel for doing something which is even more threatening than using the QT license.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
This is why I believe the leadership should be completely decentralized and we should never idolize people like him.
This coming from a guy who's Name is Adolph Hitler (713286).
Yea. I know.
"This coming from a guy who's Name is Adolph Hitler"
Could have been worse.
Like Ariel Sharon.
Hahahahahahahahaha you're jealous!
The best you can do is make fun of my name? Maybe that's why I picked out such a name. Maybe I want fools like you who can't win a debate to pick on my name so others can see you give up in public.
It's ok, just admit you don't have an arguement and let it go.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Anyone (MIT-connected, perhaps?) know what the deal is? Is it just a GNOME superfan who works for them or something more complicated?
These are baseless accusations. I would suggest you keep the conspiracy theories to yourself unless you have some evidence to back them up.
Maybe you are actually someone hired by Microsoft to spread FUD on slashdot!
Miguel's a leader of the community who deserves our respect. I think it's become clear over the years he could have made as much money as he wanted but chose to do what he felt was right.
I choose the name Adolph Hitler simply to destroy this ridiculous law and to hide behind this ridiculous law to anyone who believes in it.
So please call me a Nazi so I can invoke the awesome power of Godwins Law.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
A lot of people denigrate Miguel as being a "Microsoft fan."
That's not fair. What he is, is a realist. The fact is that as long as Microsoft has a vast majority of the desktops out there, any competing system has a choice: between creating their own 31337 world where only the initiated may play, or instead creating systems that work and play well with others. By paying close attention to what system and paradigms users are used to - that is to say, that Microsoft ships - Miguel helps furhter the rapid adoption of Linux as a viable Windows alternative.
Why he is imporant is not just that he realizes this, but that he does something about it. Real hackers write code for their beliefs, as he does.
Maybe you are friends with Miguel and you feel insulted. I think we have a right to be critical of a person who puts themselves on the front page of Slashdot.
Duh? How did you expect people to respond? Bow before him and worship his magnificence.
Okay, I'll go build his shrine and then we can all buy his microsoft/mono yinyang necklaces. Er wait you already have that stuff?
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Yeah, but a common complaint of CIL-based languages is that they all look suspiciously like C# in the end. Since I've never written Smalltalk et al. for .NET, I don't know, but it's certainly the case that the only widespread languages in use for the CLR are C# and VB.NET, so the multiple languages thing seems like a bit of a lame duck.
However, Python, which bears little resemblance to Java, runs very nicely on the JVM thanks to the Jython project, and can import and use Java's class libraries and so forth. So maybe the JVM (and Java byte code) is more generalised than you thought.
Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.
Java is just as patent-encumbered as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?
In fact, it is argueable that it is moreso since a single, commercial body controls it (Sub) whereas with .Net at least you have a standards body (ECMA) who has ratified the spec, which means that an independant implementation of the spec API (Mono) is less likely to have problems than an independant implimentation of the Java API.
The reality is that everyone is against .Net soley because it is made by MS. Yay for groupthink!.
I admire his energy, conviction and programming skills, but he is much too naive. I believe his intentions are genuine, but he's just too wrapped up in love of .NET to see the sand trap he is sinking into. Again, it's not a matter of "if" Microsoft bites back. It's just a matter of time.
Yet some people are perfectly willing to idolize Linus, or RMS... So what, he likes SOME stuff Microsoft does. I like SOME stuff Linux does, but you don't see me running out and converting to Linux... The amount of hypocracy is amazing...
I think Miguel may have underestimated Microsoft.
That would be MIS-underestimated.
"A lot of people denigrate Miguel as being a "Microsoft fan."
Somehow a phrase comes in from the past. "Chasing Tailights" comes to mind. The other is "Bandwagoning".
"That's not fair. What he is, is a realist. The fact is that as long as Microsoft has a vast majority of the desktops out there, any competing system has a choice: between creating their own 31337 world where only the initiated may play, or instead creating systems that work and play well with others. By paying close attention to what system and paradigms users are used to - that is to say, that Microsoft ships - Miguel helps furhter the rapid adoption of Linux as a viable Windows alternative. "
The bad thing for your argument is Apple Computers. Apple computers sets those paradigims you're so proud of. Why isn't Miguel following them? Apple's play better with Windows and Linux. Why isn't Miguel following Apple? Apple's world is no more "31337 " than the PC, for the entrance fee's the same for both. Why isn't Miguel using an Mac? So what argument's left? Money? Combine Apple's paradigm's with linux's low cost, on cheap PC's and there's no reason left for your "realist" not to follow Apple?
I was at the Burton Group conference where Miguel de Icaza, John Montgomery, and Graham Hamilton participated in a forum discussion.
I mentioned how prolific scripting languages had become, that some very large and revenue-generating systems were built on scripting languages. I asked given the industry-wide move toward virtual machines, what each of their products would be doing to facilitate scripting languages targeting the VMs.
John Montgomery admitted that the CLR did not really handle dynamically typed scripting langauges very well. Graham Hamilton did not say the same thing about the JVM, but did mention they were working on getting the JVM into better shape to be able to allow dynamically typed scripting languages more ease of integration.
Python, which also bears little resemblance to C#, also appears to run very nicely on .NET and pretty well on Mono. http://ironpython.com/. While they aren't all open source, there are also many other languages with compilers directed at the CLI: http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/lang/.
.NET because Java can be run on Mono via the IKVM project http://www.ikvm.net/.
Finally, there seems to be no reason to suppose that Java is somehow more flexible than
I'm not advocating the use of Mono (and I'm certainly not advocating the use of Windows), but arguments against it should be technically correct.
Kluge
Ahem...
Miguel is working on one of the most important and exciting projects in the software world. Regardless of what Novell does or doesn't do with Mono, it will still be open source, and it will forever alter the competetive landscape (by increasing competition for Microsoft).
Amazing magic tricks
Some languages map very nicely to the JVM or the CLR
/clr flag which is a very convenient
(the same developer that did Jython now has
a very fast implementation called IronPython that
was unveiled and demostrated at OSCON).
The problem is with languages that require pointers:
Fortran, C, C++ and some extra support is convenient
for some functional languages that the CLR
provides.
I mean, nothing really ground breaking, but the
CLR had a chance to learn from Java's limitations.
The new MS C++ compiler generates pure CIL executables
when using the
way of integrating existing C/C++ codebases with
managed codebases.
Miguel.
... a MUCH better deal on my next box and Tv if I bought it from some crackheads out the back of a van someplace with no paperwork for cash. The thing is, why would I want to do that?
Some folks don't want to deal with MS in any manner from a very simple easy to understand concept --> THEY ARE CROOKS AND NOT NICE PEOPLE AND THEY WILL STAB YOU IN THE BACK EVENTUALLY.
Other people think it's OK,so that's their lookout then.
There's an old saying that fits "lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas".
Have fun scratching!
He's been accused of betraying the open-source dream, but Ximian cofounder Miguel de Icaza believes corporate partnerships are the best way to realize it.
This isn't the problem-- this isn't what people are contesting. The problem with Mono is that there is no partnership with Microsoft. Microsoft serves Microsoft and only Microsoft. Anyone who "allies" with Microsoft in any way is just setting themselves up to be horribly screwed the instant Microsoft begins to see them as a threat. Look at Microsoft's "business partners" of the past and you'll see that Microsoft used every one of them like cheap whores and then left them by the curbside to die.
I'm not sure that Miguel is up to the challenge. He can coast on his reputations only so long and then he will have to actually sell a product to a mass market.
That is when the rubber meets the road. And by the looks of his efforts, he will have a long row to hoe.
I've been on the receiving end of his marketing push and I am stunningly unimpressed. A person of his standing in the open source community could pack a room of eager buyers, and it did, but when you don't show for the meeting all that goodwill and reputation is gone.
I know it wasn't Miguel who failed to show, but the company he led arranged for someone from senior management to show for a sales meeting. They canceled the meeting with no warning. That reflects poorly on his (former) company and its management.
Now that they have been consumed by Novel, one would think that they would be interested in following up on that previous sales event to attempt to repair their damaged reputation. Not a word has arrived from Novel's corporate headquarters.
I guess we will just continue buying our Linux software and services from Red Hat.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
I think it's worth pointing out that Novell are unlikely to have taken such a keen interest and involvement (and ownership) in Mono without a reasonable degree of risk and legal analysis. That doesn't mean we are 'safe' but it should put some perspective on the level of fear that some people seem to have.
Microsoft are certainly a competitor but the open source community will only be doing itself a disservice if fear of what Microsoft might do is an overriding principle. If you want to avoid treading on Microsofts toes you may as well just give up now.
If they want to control something they should be made to fight for it.
For me it is difficult to put my finger on exactly what has hampered Java's uptake in the general open source community. Java certainly has an open source community (as is evident from Apache projects etc) but it seems almost completely disconnected from the general open source community.
In part it must come down to Sun. It seems insane to me that sheer force of enthusiasm seems to striding towards making Mono an attractive and viable platform for GNOME/GTK development while years of Sun involvement in that project has done no such thing for Java. Quite a lot of posts say "Why not Java?" as an alternative for GNOME. I wonder the same thing, there just doesn't seem to be any energy for it. It's ludicrous to think that some sort of epiphany is going to suddenly divert Miguel or Novells energy towards Java. That energy will have to come from somewhere else. Simply standing there and saying "Look, Java!" isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Mod me a flamebait, but I feel Mono is just driving users to windows where the best development tools are.
Development tools are one of microsoft stronger suits. Its going to be hard to get development tools that good for linux, so in the end more users will end up developing on windows.
I looked at mono for development, and ended up at java/eclipse. Eclipse is one of the most impresive open source projects since apache. I wish sun was more open and every linux distro would come with java preinstalled.
You can't win with either java or mono(c#).. Maybe its time ffor python/perl/php/ruby.....
SmartEiffel (the GNU Eiffel compiler) is also able to compile to JVM bytecode (besides its more usual mode, which produces C code).
Wow, and the grandparent is even called REAL TROLL TALK. Funny how all that can escape you.
Microsoft software architect Don Box even wrote a song imploring de Icaza to join the company and sang it to him in front of a large audience at a party late last year.
Maybe they should have just used a stunt by Steve Ballmer instead?
Steve (onstage): "Miguel, you're a great developer... DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!"
- sm
Now there's a stupid anon-cow for ya LOL
Check out my PHP Url Validator
Just to nitpick-
from the article
"Linux appeared seemingly out of nowhere in 1991 when a Finnish student named Linus Torvalds posted the first version of it on the Web "
I believe the announcements were on newsgroups and the first downloads were from ftp-I would think MIT Technology Review would realize that Web does not equal Internet.
In the crowded world of Unixesque/Linux users, developers etc this is the one guy who gets it.
.NET to linux says it all. There are reason why Microsoft advances so far and no...its not simply because of windows dominance on the desktop or marketing. MS understand where modern computing, programming needs to go and so does Miguel.
His writing on Mono and why he want to port
You can't win with either java or mono(c#).. Maybe its time ffor python/perl/php/ruby.....
Well, with IronPython mono is Python. Alternatively, you can always use Jython and have Python being Java. The real benefit here is this: There's no need for constant updates to the pyGTK and pyGNOME libraries every time GTK of GNOME changes if you're using IronPython, because IronPython automatically gets the latest GTK# stack through mono - your bindings are always automatically up to date.
Of course, you can always go with Parrot if you want the completely new and different open source implementation of the concept. Parrot will run both Perl and Python happily, not sure about PHP and Ruby, but I imagine someting is in the works, and while it is a lot less complete than the others, it promises to do a lot more, and potentially do it notably faster than either Java or Mono/.NET
Plenty of options, and they all make some sense. Time to let OpenSource Darwinian practices see who survives in the long run - there are more baskets for these eggs, so there's no reason to panic.
Jedidiah
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
Never have truer words been spoken
Is this your trolling account Miguel?
... what is it that people don't get about mono.
Take away all of the propietary stuff like ASP.NET, Windows Forms, etc and what are you left with?
A great ECMA standard language called C#, excellent libraries like GTK# to create cross platform apps, a great sandbox environment that is superior to Java, compiled python, and a thousand more goodies.
And if you think about the fact that it was done in record time by a skeleton crew while Java rotted away in oblivion makes me wonder of what could come next!
Mono is a groundbreaking product, it is bound to become the greatest platform for developing linux apps. It is open, elegant, powerfull and free.
What else could you ask for?
Adolfo
Now _there_ is your hard-core, oldschool troll. Clueless, but amusing in its own way.
There's always MonoDevelop, but it's a long long way from being a mature dev environment yet. However, having used SharpDevelop on windows, I believe that when MonoDevelop reaches the same stage of maturity, it will be, if not quite Visual Studio, an excellent IDE.
If you go for mono, it's likely that you're a F/OSS type of guy. Are you going to pay the licence fees for VS.NET? I didn't think so.
Even if it *is* a trojan, remember what happened to them? The folks here in Greece gave them a nice wooden horse. Perhaps MS should fear that *THEY* are the trojans? I don't believe Mono *needs* to have total compatibility with .NET, just enough compatibility to allow dev to target both. If Gtk#
gets mature enough then I'm considering *ignoring*
windows forms for now (if I wait for longhorn then
I'll need a re-write anyway).
There is a good chance that a whole lot of really cool neat ideas will flow *BACK* from an open source project such as Mono into future .NETS.
(Worst case consider MS a Tr*jan and throw them
out of the car window afterwards :-)).
Matt Asay, Novell's Linux business office director [said] "I would say that the greatest benefit that Novell got from Ximian was not their technology; it was their DNA."
It isn't just your thoughts they are after
I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
Personally, IMO VS.NET++ (2003) is nothing special compared to best java IDEs.
And it's pretty buggy too.
Hi,
.NET is the best thing since Java.
.NET. .NET is Microsoft's answer to the screwjob that is DCOM. You will need .NET/Mono installed on client workstations to talk to a Microsoft Server based application. Mono can be blown up at any time simply with a patch. Is this confusing any luminaries out there? Is this too deep?
I was just perusing the comments, and it seems a good bit of you folks are convinced that Icaza is a visionary and Microsoft
And the people that aren't "getting it" seem to be these people. If you really want to "get it" see the Samba project. That cat and mouse game has been going on for the better part of a decade.
Mono is a bridge to
You forget that anything proprietary is limited to the goodwill of the owner. Icaza reminds me of the early days of Ransom Love's Caldera project. He admired Microsoft and attempted to emulate them. End game- Microsoft 1 Caldera 0. Mr. Love has had a change of tune since the inevitable happened.
In any case, if Icaza went to work for Microsoft, I would not at all be suprised. And it would not affect my plans for the Linux server and client in the slightest.
because he doesn't know how to innovate.
because I think internally they know that OO is on the decline and SOA will be the Next Big Thing.
They are fairly quietly patenting the shit out of all the concepts related to SOA, so that when everyone finally realizes what is happening it will be too late.
Indigo this is where MS can finally exercise the strength of their Monopoly - a patented, vendor locked, built in distributed toolkit delivered with every copy of Longhorn.
The OS community needs to wake up and realize that our future is going to be usurped while everyone is quibbling over VMs.
One of the ways I think we can best stop MS is by creating SOA infrastructures that don't use XML and its derivitaves (WSDL, etc). YAML?, UBF? Please god something else. But I am sure to be shouted down by the OO/XML kool-aid drinkers, so I'll shut up now...
I thought he did make as much money as he wanted. http://www.linuxworld.com/story/35278.htm Or, none of the $15-20 million went to him? That's a lot of Rupert dolls.
" In the crowded world of Unixesque/Linux users, developers etc this is the one guy who gets it."
.NET to linux says it all. "
Getting "it", and having the correct "it" are two seperate things.
"His writing on Mono and why he want to port
Correctness of "all" isn't determined by volume, nor quantity.
"There are reason why Microsoft advances so far and no...its not simply because of windows dominance on the desktop or marketing. "
Or some illegal acts, or first mover effects, or networking effects.
"MS understand where modern computing, programming needs to go and so does Miguel."
Worse case of "hero worship" I've ever seen. Both of Miguel and Microsoft. Now how many people of your position have used more than just a IBM PC, and Windows?
How many have used a mainframe? How many have used a non-IBM PC/ no Windows platform i.e. Amiga's, OS/2, Acorn's, etc?
The only people I've seen "hero worshiping" Bill Gate's empire are those who have never been exposed to anything else.
Then Mr. Miguel, How old is he ?
OMG.
i'm picking on you because you exemplify superbly what's true of most of this thread, and half the posts on this story: intense fanboyism. you deduced that he was a great coder from a short conversation? what'd he do, spend the whole time reciting the Mono headers? great coder, lousy conversationalist. you can't figure out how good a coder someone is without looking at their code ! and we'll ignore for the moment this flatly stupid idea that LoC/hr is some measure of a coder's skill. all the "he's nothing short of amazing" stuff just doesn't "take" without some rationale behind it, all of which is totally missing from most of the fanboy posts. "he's smarter than me, he must know what he's doing" is triangulated somewhere between funny, stupid, and dangerous. reserve judgment for people with a proven track record, but even Ken and Dennis make mistakes.
and, speaking of track records, anyone know what the current score is for people or organizations that try to "play nice" with our "friends" in Redmond? (hint: it ain't pretty)
i'm amazed by both the number of "he's the only one that gets it" (c'mon, the only one? there's an awful lot of bright people out there) and "he just doesn't get it" posts. people on both sides seem really animated. i've never met the guy, but most people i know who have ended up kinda violently opposed to him. what is it about the guy that inspires such strong emotion? is it just the fact that he's working on topics that touch on sensitive areas for many FS/OS folks (MS, and playing nice with them)? or is de Icaza the new RMS (people seem to have mostly mellowed about him)?
i've got mod points, and i was gonna try to even this thread out some, but i couldn't figure out where the -1 Fanboy rating was.
i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
Gah. How the hell did Real Troll Talk get rated up like that? Well done, idiot moderators.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Insightful, my ass.
This clown has been posting the same drivel on slashdot since time immemorial and I don't believe a word he says.
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
Sorry, but the things claimed in the article about the interview somehow don't quite match what google search for "miguel icaza microsoft visa" gives.
_ yo urself_miguel_demands_rms/ or http://www.mexicobusiness.com/archives/julaug00/ed itorial/icaza.htm claim wasn't hired by Microsoft only because he would get the necessary visa.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/02/05/explain
I somehow doubt Microsoft would be willing to hire (and probably would, if it wasn't for the visa) somebody for who the interview was "an opportunity to lecture managers on why Microsoft should abandon its multibillion-dollar business model and embrace open-source programming".
If anyone belives mono is evil, downfall of gnome etc etc i recommend you read the article. Listen to what Miguel says.
.net? According to MS that is a yes. What if all that windows code can run on linux to, without problems, seemlessly. Mono is the key. A compablilty layer, just like wine expect better, to allow us to run the next generation of windows applications. Its a drive at the future market itself. Trying to get a head start on microsoft with a strong development tool kit. If we wait 5 years before mono is built then we will be chassing there tails yet again.
We are talking long term. In 10 years will 90% of windows software be written in
"I know that since he's smarter than me he must be doing the right thing"
One of the single most retarded things I've ever heard.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
...from where I'm standing, Miguel is not an innovator, he just says "wow cool, wish I could have thought of that " and copies it.
Now I'm not bashing his managerial skills (he got mono done very quickly) or his coding skills, but open source needs idea people, not the "me too"'s of this world.
I am NaN
Mostly because I like pissing people like you off...
"Maybe you are actually someone hired by Microsoft to spread FUD on slashdot!
:-p
Miguel's a leader of the community who deserves our respect."
Will help about this if he don't say things like "Unix is a world of pain" or "I love Longhorn" (yes, he did).
He's the guy that don't works on Microsoft but really loves them and say good stuff about them in all his interviews. For me, he can go work there.
I'm just a random AC who occasionally posts, and doesn't idolise Stallman, Torvalds, Gates or whomever, but the reasons I like contributing to /. are:
/., and it's possible to carry on interesting exchanges with them.
/. are simply false, and I enjoy responding to lies with truth.
/. are funny, and usually easy to poke holes in.
1. There are some rational, open-minded posters on
2. So many of the myths propagated on
3. The nutty conspiracy theories put forward by a lot of GNU/Linux zealots on
4. GNU/Linux zealots tend to be fanatical, and it's funny to see how they react to facts that conflict with their fantasies. In general, they typically react with accusations of "a$troturfing for $CO/M$".
Name a project that has done more damage in OS than Linux.
to give you some numbers
Windows 91% share, 1 GUI, 1 Shell, some thousand developers support it
OSX 3% share, 1 GUI, 1 Shell,less than a thousand developers support it
Linux 1% share, 134 GUI, 15 Shell and millions of developers support them
While I love to see Mono working, I'd like to know why did you (Mono people) refused (at least to some extent) to cooperate with DotGNU? Texts on both DotGNU and Mono sites aren't optimistic.
"Maybe you are actually someone hired by Microsoft to spread FUD on slashdot!
:-p
.NET.
.NET, respectively? If de Icaza should go work at Microsoft, does that mean Stallman should go work at SCO?
Miguel's a leader of the community who deserves our respect."
Will help about this if he don't say things like "Unix is a world of pain" or "I love Longhorn" (yes, he did).
He's the guy that don't works on Microsoft but really loves them and say good stuff about them in all his interviews. For me, he can go work there.
Why is this a problem? Richard Stallman started GNU to provide a free clone of UNIX. Miguel de Icaza started GNOME to provide a free alternative to Microsoft COM, and MONO to provide a free clone of Microsoft
What is the difference between GNU cloning UNIX and GNOME and MONO imitating/cloning COM and
Point to me a succesfull OS project that has just "idea people"
OS in full of ideas, but lacks strong managers to give solid directions.
I don't think someone who gives the impression he'd rather be a M$ developer than a *NIX developer should be considered a "leader" in the community. I won't deny that he's done some good for the community. Yet, I don't consider MONO one of them. I think it opens the door to possible problems down the road with M$. I feel the best way to approach the war with M$ is to open standards. Not concede that M$ has created them already and conform to them if for no other reason than to avoid litigation.
The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less Barry Schwartz Whether we're buying a pair of jeans, ordering a cup of coffee, selecting a long-distance carrier, applying to college, choosing a doctor, or setting up a 401(k), everyday decisions -- both big and small -- have become increasingly complex due to the overwhelming abundance of choice with which we are presented. As Americans, we assume that more choice means better options and greater satisfaction. But beware of excessive choice: choice overload can make you question the decisions you make before you even make them, it can set you up for unrealistically high expectations, and it can make you blame yourself for any and all failures. In the long run, this can lead to decision-making paralysis, anxiety, and perpetual stress. And, in a culture that tells us that there is no excuse for falling short of perfection when your options are limitless, too much choice can lead to clinical depression. In The Paradox of Choice, Barry Schwartz explains at what point choice -- the hallmark of individual freedom and self-determination that we so cherish -- becomes detrimental to our psychological and emotional well-being. In accessible, engaging, and anecdotal prose, Schwartz shows how the dramatic explosion in choice -- from the mundane to the profound challenges of balancing career, family, and individual needs -- has paradoxically become a problem instead of a solution. Schwartz also shows how our obsession with choice encourages us to seek that which makes us feel worse. By synthesizing current research in the social sciences, Schwartz makes the counter intuitive case that eliminating choices can greatly reduce the stress, anxiety, and busyness of our lives. He offers eleven practical steps on how to limit choices to a manageable number, have the discipline to focus on those that are important and ignore the rest, and ultimately derive greater satisfaction from the choices you have to make. http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=16176 04
What you don't know about Miguel, is that he was accused of hacking the Mexican Presidential Election preliminary voting count (PREP) back in 1994. It is rumored that he hacked many other private and governmental institutions.
He is a very arrogant person (in person and by email). He was administering a mexican Linux email list some years ago, and if some argued with him or made comments that he did not like, he arbitrarily kick off that person from the list.
Yes, the CLR had a chance to learn from the JVM's limitations. They've talked nice about making Scheme continuations possible to do efficiently on the CLR for years. It still hasn't materialized; Scheme is still no more implementable on the CLR than it is on the JVM. In typical Microsoft fashion, expect delivery to follow promises by 5-10 years. In the meantime, there's a very good Scheme interpreter (SISC) with full continuation support on the JVM, and a very good Scheme compiler (Kawa) with escaping continuation support on the JVM. Both have a decent userbase. I'm not impressed that the CLR can handle "unmanaged" code, pointer arithmetic, etc. Being able to turn off the safety features of a VM is not something that allures me. If you're going to do that, just write in C.
Actually, my point wasn't that the JVM is better/more flexible than .Net, only that the JVM is not wholly bound to Java. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
.Net, but like I said, how many are actually being used in production? Honestly, it seems like the multiple-languages line is a marketing point, not a practical reality.
I do understand that there are several languages targeted at
.Net is being patented to the hilt - and MS, not de Icaza, own all the patent.
MS are defining all the data formats. If one of them is wrapped in encryption, it will be a DMCA violation for us to write software to read that data format.
Mono may be useful - if MS.Net dominates the world, Mono may make it easier for people to migrate to free software, but MS are going to make that as hard, and as illegal, as possible.
I think I'm glad it exists, but I hope we never need Mono.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
except that SOA is not new. It's just microsoft gave it a new name and is marketing the hell out of it. IBM has a ton of patents on service oriented architecture. so guess what, MS is about 10 yrs late to the patent the hell out of SOA game.
For all the comments back and forth about Miguel, I think it's cool that in a discussion about an article written about him, he shows up on /. and responds to questions and criticisms about Mono.
Would Bill Gates ever respond to a discussion on Microsoft products by users? I think not.
Yeah, what has the once so exclusive profession of astroturf marketing come to, when we get these cheap hacks simply repeating the same drivel over and over?
It is a joy to behold the best emotional astroturfing on slashdot -- such elegant appeals to emotion and clever distractions of the logical faculty are truly a form of art.
But then you get these idiots who give the whole profession a bad name by not even bothering to rewrite their screeds! I sincerely hope the manager of that hack takes a look at his writing of late and fires him.
I guess I've never really understood the point of running, say, C++ on a virtual machine, especially if it's unmanaged code. I mean, big deal - just run the executable.
Personally, I have no problems at all with ditching pointer-oriented languages (full disclosure: I'm currently employed as a C and Python programmer) in favour of fully managed code, and indeed, I believe it's the future. This is especially true for the future "utility companies" of software (Microsoft is an obvious one), who will stream code on demand to appliance-like machines everywhere.
So where is the benefit in running unsafe code on a virtual machine? Other than the temporary transitional phase of integration, which you mentioned.
One of the single most retarded things I've ever heard.
Of course it is "retarded" the grandparent post is a troll (have a look at his post history, account name and journal entries) karma whoring; he obviously realised that the quickest way to get modded to +5 on slashdot is to make such "retarded" comments.
Mostly because I like pissing people like you off...
I wasn't pissed at your first post, nor am I pissed now.
I find it amusing that Microsoft users/supporters troll Linux threads in some vain attempt to make points with their other MS users/supporters.
Complete waste of time, from my perspective. But it is your time to waste, so by all means, waste away.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
This clown has been posting the same drivel on slashdot since time immemorial and I don't believe a word he says.
Funny that you spend so much time questioning my motives and integrity when you could simply call the folks at Novell and ask them about the matter.
That would certainly put it to rest once and for all, wouldn't it?
But that would take all the fun out of getting your panties ballled up in a bunch, now wouldn't it?
The fact is, if you say you will arrive for a sales meeting and then don't bother to show, people begin to wonder about your after-sales support.
I could care less if you believe me or not.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
astroturf marketing
/.
Oh, I get it!
I'm supposed to be a Red Hat marketing droid?
I guess any complaint of poor customer service will be treated as astroturfing on
No surprise there.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
sounds like fanboy hasn't met very many coders.
err, i could name a few: ken, dennis, rob, presotto, jmk, brucee -- yeah a lotta unix and plan 9 guys.
and yes, i have met them, spent time with them and they are truly outstanding.
i've also met a lot of bad coders (either virtually 'cos i've read their code or i have physically met them) -- far too many.
i think the worst are the python mob; people with no comp sci background who code up garbage (because it is easy) and then complain that what they coded doesn't work.
this class of coder is the worst because they can easily code up up something and they are trying to do hard science and get all upset when their 'programs' break. a basic understanding of data types is what they need and the one they use the most is floating point.
floating point, of course, being the hardest.
as my honours maths lecturer said: 'real [floating point] numbers are used for measuring beer'!
can't back it up when it comes to lines of code per hour counts ...
What about 'concepts per years' ?
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
'cause you are a fucking chump.
tasty electronic music vittles
MLB's satalites are warping your mind...
gconf is Havoc's baby, it has *0* to do with miguel. sheesh.
It's only a subset of C++ though.
From my most recent reading about the Mono Windows.Forms implementation, I understood them to be using winelib.
Can you provide a reference stating otherwise??
-- Mike Greaves