Google Code Jam 2004

2003 Summary by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 00:07 · Score: 1

Where is the 2003 summary at the summary link? I can't find it.

Re:2003 Summary by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 03:53 · Score: 3, Funny

Where is the 2003 summary at the summary link? I can't find it.
You can't find a web page for a competition sponsored by google?
Hmm, I wish someone would invent a way to search the web...
Sorry, but you have been disqualified from the competition.
Re:2003 Summary by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 05:30 · Score: 0

No, itsn't at the link, it is right here

Google - what a great company by Slashbot+Hive-Mind · 2004-09-02 00:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

$10,000 for the winner, but the real prize is recognition amoung your peers. And it will help open source as well.

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We are the collective Slashbot HiveMind

Re: Google - what a great company by oKtosiTe · 2004-09-02 00:11 · Score: 0

Resistance is futile, lower your firewalls and prepared to be googled.

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It will happen.
Re:Google - what a great company by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 00:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

it will help open source as well.

How does a competition which mandates the use of proprietary languages (VB.Net) or "open" languages controlled by major closed-source corporations (C# and Java), "help open source"?
Re:Google - what a great company by Slashbot+Hive-Mind · 2004-09-02 00:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

We have learnt that Sun is seriously considering Open Sourcing Java. And the excellant Mono project will wrest control back from M$. Have faith, AC-of-bot, the collective will prevail.

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We are the collective Slashbot HiveMind
Re:Google - what a great company by strictfoo · 2004-09-02 00:43 · Score: 3, Informative

How does a competition which mandates the use of proprietary languages

From Google: Use Java, C++, C# or VB.NET

C++ is proprietary?

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Re:Google - what a great company by r.jimenezz · 2004-09-02 00:44 · Score: 4, Interesting

And it will help open source as well.
I thought the kind of exercises used in these competitions were rather contrived and "hard" computer science problems... I am not sure the concepts developed could be easily applied to, say, developing a better desktop or interoperating better with proprietary applications/file formats.
However some of the FOSS community best hackers could register and donate any prizes they net to their projects ;)

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The revolution will not be televised.
Re:Google - what a great company by chary · 2004-09-02 00:44 · Score: 1

"Bah. Look at that asshole with his code and his caffeine soap and his lah-de-dah Google-fu. I could kick his ass, like...SO hard..."
Re:Google - what a great company by robslimo · 2004-09-02 01:00 · Score: 1

Well, what you don't know is that ol' Bjorne Stroustrup secretly patented and copyrighted that whole C++ thing. Kinda like Unisys with that GIF/LZW stuff, he's just waiting for the critical moment to ascend to world dominance. Bill Gates knows this, hence the VB.NET push. Geek deathmatch... B. Gates vs B. Stroustrup

Or not.
Re:Google - what a great company by dave420 · 2004-09-02 01:36 · Score: 1

Seriously not trolling here - how can it help open source and not closed?
Re:Google - what a great company by cbreaker · 2004-09-02 01:51 · Score: 1

He never said it wouldn't help anything other then Open Source - why do you assume one but not the other? There are such things that can help without hindring or help everyone.

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Re:Google - what a great company by dave420 · 2004-09-02 01:55 · Score: 1

I assumed one but not the other, as one was mentioned and not the other :-P
Why mention it at all? It'll help any number of different camps - why single out open source?
Re:Google - what a great company by clambake · 2004-09-02 03:25 · Score: 1

I thought the kind of exercises used in these competitions were rather contrived and "hard" computer science problems... I am not sure the concepts developed could be easily applied to, say, developing a better desktop or interoperating better with proprietary applications/file formats.

You are right, and in fact, there is a good chance that any winners of this contest are more than likely not fit to work on "real" code, i.e. the stuff that keeps banks, pacemakers and ATMs working. Being fast is STRONG sign that the code you are creating is poorly thought out, riddled with bugs and memory leaks, or just plain broken. Coding most of these problems looks like pure algorithms work, stuff that you would never in a million years write yourself because usually there will be a library that can do it better and is fully tested.
Re:Google - what a great company by ImaLamer · 2004-09-02 03:36 · Score: 1

I am not sure the concepts developed could be easily applied to, say, developing a better desktop or interoperating better with proprietary applications/file formats.

I don't know, the big feature of Longhorn (*ducks*) is supposed to be integrated search. Obviously that already exists in Windows, but it is supposed to be smarter or something... who cares.

By any means, at least submissions won't stay in the hands of the now evil corporation "GOOG". Plus, as a linux "user" I have no idea how to start a good search for files (Nautilis?).

Could be good.

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Re:Google - what a great company by gnu-generation-one · 2004-09-02 03:59 · Score: 1

"C++ is proprietary?"

If they're aiming for open-source developers, why didn't they include perl, python, ruby, and lisp among the "allowable" languages? You need to choose between something less powerful and something proprietary???
Re:Google - what a great company by apankrat · 2004-09-02 04:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

I do hope CodeJam problems are different from typical TopCoder ones. I know couple of guys who used to hang out on TopCoder. From their comments I gathered that being a timed competition its winners are not CompSci geeks or language gurus or design gods. No. Winners merely are the people who over time managed to accumulate a library of frequently used code snippets. Solving the problem is then a matter of simply putting these snippets together.

If this is in fact true, I don't see any reason why I should give any 'peer recognition' to these winners.

I think if Google would replace this clause

In a race to see who can create an accurate solution in the shortest amount of time, competitors try to out-think and out-code their opponents.
with a simple time constraint, CodeJam would attract other developers, who usually put some effort into a good design and thus prefer to think first and then code.

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3.243F6A8885A308D313
Re:Google - what a great company by _anomaly_ · 2004-09-02 04:31 · Score: 1

start a good search by doing `updatedb` then run `locate `
;-)

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"I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
Re:Google - what a great company by strictfoo · 2004-09-02 04:38 · Score: 1

C++ is less powerful than VB.Net, C#, Lisp, Perl, or Python?

Interesting thought you have there.

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Re:Google - what a great company by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 04:46 · Score: 0

In terms of ubiquitously available standard libraries, yes, it is less powerful.
The set of libraries that any C++ environment can be counted on to have available is quite small.
Re:Google - what a great company by flibuste · 2004-09-02 05:05 · Score: 1

Those are SCRIPTING langages
Re:Google - what a great company by ImaLamer · 2004-09-02 05:42 · Score: 1

Why thank you...

That is nice after being cussed out by someone for being "anti-Microsoft" because I pointed out the inherent flaw in ActiveX's design.

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Get your Unix fortune now!
Re:Google - what a great company by Tofino · 2004-09-02 06:36 · Score: 1

Fine and dandy, except part of what makes a great CompSci geek, language wizard, or design god is the ability to quickly recognize and analyze a problem, and whip up a solution. Reusing old code snippets in an effective and WORKING way, to me, is "smarter" than cranking out the same old code by rote again.
Re:Google - what a great company by slutsker · 2004-09-02 07:10 · Score: 1

It's because the competition (and I have competed in TopCoder; I wonder if you have?) is about solving problems quickly. The coding language is just important because it must be tested with a computer; it is not the focus of the competition. (Also, as a side not, C++ is not proprietary as people have said before.)
Re:Google - what a great company by slutsker · 2004-09-02 07:21 · Score: 1

Code reuse is an important part of any business setting, as I am sure you know. There is nothing to stop them from using the libraries that they wrote, and if they are smart enough to write them and quickly figure out which parts to use in a competition, more power to them.
Re:Google - what a great company by Addy-Toronto · 2004-09-02 07:35 · Score: 1

No no, the real prize is for Google, that will (has) gained publicity, something ever so important for private companies. I'm sure their motives are far from altruistic, even assuming no commercial benefit arrises from this event, TopCoder will gladly hand over the names of say, a few new hires for Google to contemplate? Having the pick of the litter of new programmers (as a quick search of some of the top profiles will, anecdotaly,show) is a very valuable upperhand for Google over it's competitors.
Re:Google - what a great company by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 08:39 · Score: 0

The problems are designed so that the competition is a test of ones ability to solve a programming problem, not ones ability to find a library that solves a problem. And yes, someone does have to write a 'ubiquitously available standard library', right?

If you believe that the C++ developers are at a disadvantedge, I would encourage you to have a friendly competition with Tomek or SnapDragon (two of the better C++ developers), who will likely smash you just as easily as they have so many others. And then next year, you can write about how C++ developers are at a disadvantedge, and yet, are still much faster than Perl/Python developers.
Re:Google - what a great company by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:01 · Score: 1, Insightful

Oh please. Why on earth would Google sponsor the event, fly in the top 50, and interview each of them, year after year, if they thought they weren't interviewing programmers of the highest quality? Are they irrational? Morons? Why?

If you can tell me some other method for getting Google to fly me half-way across the world for an interview - I would really love to know it!

Why don't you take a couple of minutes and look at the profiles of a few of the top TopCoder competitors. I think that you'll see that most of them are employed at prestigous companies in the industry or finishing degrees at top schools like Stanford, MIT, CMU, CIT, etc.

Fast, poorly designed code, does not pass the 50 to 100 system checks that are run on each problem. Nor will it pass the scrutiny of the other competitors during the challenge phase. Why don't you review some of the submissions from previous contests and point out some errors in the system. You can do it. I have a lot of faith in you.

Is it just me - or is the Slashdot crowd a little insecure? Seems like more than a few of you are afraid to find out that you're just a bottom coder. Of course, you'll never know where you stand unless you're willing to try. :)
Re:Google - what a great company by Bullet-Dodger · 2004-09-02 19:13 · Score: 1

So is VB. And Java's interpreted. And why does that matter anyway?
Re:Google - what a great company by flibuste · 2004-09-03 01:31 · Score: 1

VB is not a scripting langage, although interpreted as Java.
Scripting langages, compared to STRUCTURED langages do not go through a phase of type-checkings, compilation, linking and such. It's the contrary...libraries for scripting langages such as PERL are very loosely coupled, there aren't many that have any fixed/well defined type (a string can be an int, or a float, etc.).
Re:Google - what a great company by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 02:54 · Score: 0

C++ is a scripting language if you write a script with it.
Perl is a scripting language if you write a script with it.
C++ is a programming language if you write a program with it.
Perl is a programming language if you write a program with it.

If a language is loosely-typed, that makes it a loosely-typed language. If it's late-bound, that makes it a late-bound language. Neither of those have any effect on whether it's a "scripting" language or not, only how you use it. You can still describe your car as a "runabout" even if it's the same model that someone else uses as a "sportscar"
Re:Google - what a great company by flibuste · 2004-09-03 06:44 · Score: 1

So since you seem to know exactly what the differences are, tell me what a "C++ script", I have been writing "C++ programs" for the last ten years and I am probably so stupid that I have no idea what a C++ script is (yet) and have never seen any.

I think I speak for all of us when I say by PatrickThomson · 2004-09-02 00:09 · Score: 5, Funny

Mmm... Jam...

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I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.

Re:I think I speak for all of us when I say by StevenHenderson · 2004-09-02 00:16 · Score: 0

Even better...Google-flavored Jam....mmm...
Re:I think I speak for all of us when I say by spickus · 2004-09-02 02:51 · Score: 1

I have half a dozen. First six to email me get them.

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Indecision is the key to flexibility.

Jimmy! by mfh · 2004-09-02 00:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

There was an interesting comment and rebuttal in the 2003 winners article on Slashdot that basically stated Google was above the other big corporations out to make a buck, because Google makes you feel good for donating time to their cause. Okay that was 2003. My question is that now Google has gone public, has the mood change very much? I still have a good feeling about them, and I use their services every day, including the search engine (GIS, web search) and Gmail. I'm just wondering if coders feel that $10k is enough money now that the profits have grown so much. I could see them offering $100k to the winner without batting an eye. Are they awarding enough to first place?

FTA: During the Challenge Phase, competitors view each other's code and try to "break'" that code by passing test cases through the submitted code, with the hope that the results are not satisfied by the software written. Breaking another developer's code is the most direct form of competition for a programmer. In this phase, points are awarded for successful challenges and deducted for unsuccessful challenges.

To me, it's more important to measure the potential of a programmer, more than the experience of the programmer. Creating new ideas and systems does not require experience alone -- it requires a great deal of potential. Simply breaking and fixing code in a realtime setting is good for the day to day stuff (and that is valuable for Google), but when a customer or boss asks to you build something new and difficult, many experienced programmers answer with, "that can't be done" when less experienced programmers will try to do it, with limited success.

Does anyone know if Jimmy Mardell was hired by Google?

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The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.

Re:Jimmy! by Quixote · 2004-09-02 00:33 · Score: 5, Informative

Google Codejam is a programming contest, and not a contest to develop a neat application for Google. The problems in the CodeJam are more like puzzles. You are confusing this with the other contest that Google had (the URL for which escapes me) where they gave 10K for the best use of Google.
Re:Jimmy! by Brian+Quinlan · 2004-09-02 01:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

To me, it's more important to measure the potential of a programmer, more than the experience of the programmer. Creating new ideas and systems does not require experience alone -- it requires a great deal of potential. Simply breaking and fixing code in a realtime setting is good for the day to day stuff (and that is valuable for Google), but when a customer or boss asks to you build something new and difficult, many experienced programmers answer with, "that can't be done" when less experienced programmers will try to do it, with limited success.

I did the Google Code Jam last year and found that they required a lot more than basic coding skills.

One question involved analysing sequences of resource lock and unlocks, represented by upper- and lowercase characters in strings e.g. "ABba", "BAba" and "CADadBbc". Given such strings, you had to write a program to identify potential deadlock conditions e.g. the first two strings can deadlock at position 1 because the first string will hold a lock for A while waiting for B and the second string will hold a lock for B while waiting for A. Of course the real tests were more difficult than this. I think that less than 10 people out of 250 got this one.

Another question involved graph searching but with the cost of node traversal changing with time according to a pseudorandom algorithm. My solution was only twenty or thirty lines of code but it took a while to think how to do a time-based graph search.

The challenge phase is fairly challenging (excuse the pun) as well because you only have thirty minutes to make all of your challenges and you lose points if you are incorrect i.e. you claim that a certain valid input combination will cause the program to fail and it doesn't. Thirty minutes is not a lot of time to attack the 30 potentially flawed solutions that you are looking at. You have to pick a set of likely flaws (based on your own design) and quickly scan each set of code for it. Then, when you find a likely candidate, you have to read it in detail to make sure that you aren't wrong.

My point is that the Google Code Jam is for more than experienced programmers who can quickly bash out simple algorithms - you have to be able to devise novel algorithms under time pressure and devise strategies based on the psycology of your fellow coders
Re:Jimmy! by qray · 2004-09-02 01:33 · Score: 1

I could see them offering $100k to the winner without batting an eye. Are they awarding enough to first place?

Yeah, that 10k is a bargain for the publicity they get. I'm sure there are other expenses as well, but it's still a bargain

Creating new ideas and systems does not require experience alone -- it requires a great deal of potential.

And I've seen projects created by very smart creative people that ended up a mess. For two reasons, the person while creative and smart wasn't an experienced coder. And the person started slinging code without any kind of road map. While the program worked well in the beginning it digenerates into a mess as others try to maintain it. Eventually another smart person comes along and rewrites it and the cycle starts all over again.
Re:Jimmy! by lars · 2004-09-02 02:45 · Score: 1

Does anyone know if Jimmy Mardell was hired by Google?
As far as I know, Jimmy already had a job, so no. I'm sure they wanted to hire him though (they'd be crazy not to). I do know of two other finalists who did get hired on full-time, and some of the finalists who are still students got summer internships.
Re:Jimmy! by ricotest · 2004-09-02 05:59 · Score: 2

Does anyone actually know who won the 'best Google application' contest? I heard nothing about the winners, the entries, or whether any of the entries are being used now in some form. Anyone care to help me out here?
Re:Jimmy! by theskeptic · 2004-09-02 06:10 · Score: 1

Finally; one comment that makes much sense.

Why not... by StevenHenderson · 2004-09-02 00:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

The 500 participants in Round 1 will receive a "Google Code Jam 2004, Powered by TopCoder" t-shirt. The top five scorers in the Championship Round will receive the following cash prizes

Why don't they offer something like a job interview for those old enough to take it? Or even a job for the winner (with restrictions, of course)? Imagine how many people would rather work for Google than have the cash prize.

Re:Why not... by upside · 2004-09-02 00:24 · Score: 5, Interesting

They seem to imply something like what you suggest with "You might win some cash. You might wind up changing the world at Google yourself"

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I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
Re:Why not... by Tim+C · 2004-09-02 00:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

Imagine how many people would rather work for Google than have the cash prize.

That's fine for people who live near them, or are prepared to move, but what about those who aren't, say because they don't even live in the US?

Living in the UK, I'd very much rather take the cash, personally.

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It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:Why not... by StevenHenderson · 2004-09-02 00:47 · Score: 1, Insightful

Are you serious? Do you have an idea as to what the salary would be? And after working for Google, you could likely pick your place of employment forever (provided you don't get fired). Google is now a world-wide power in the software community - it would be well worth it to take the job.
Re:Why not... by strictfoo · 2004-09-02 00:47 · Score: 1

In the UK? Then there are two offices near by:

European Headquarters
Dublin, Ireland

United Kingdom Sales Office
London W1D 4AD

You lucked out! Now, just move to Dublin, and you're all set.

Google Offices world-wide

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I've just signed legislation that'll outlaw Russia forever. We'll begin bombing in five minutes.
Re:Why not... by Epistax · 2004-09-02 01:03 · Score: 1

Your missing a bit there. There is X amount in prize money. SOME of it goes to the top few coders. The rest goes to the top coders who did NOT make it to the final, some $23,000 split up or something.
Re:Why not... by zhenlin · 2004-09-02 01:38 · Score: 1

"The Google(TM) Code Jam 2004 is being offered by Google Inc. ("Google") and TopCoder, Inc. ("TopCoder"). Google is using the results of the Code Jam 2004 to identify possible employees for their company."

That's the first two lines of the Terms & Conditions.

Sometimes reading legalese can help.
Re:Why not... by Tim+C · 2004-09-02 02:10 · Score: 1

Yes I'm serious!

Even if it was just me, I wouldn't want to uproot and move to the States; all my friends and family are here in the UK. As it is, though, I have a partner and a daughter; I'm not about to drag them off to another country on the off-chance of making a name for myself in an industry I'm already in, in order to maybe have a shot at getting the sort of salary that I'll most likely be able to get anyway, given a bit of hard work and a bit of luck.

If not, well, it's only money; as long as you have enough to live comfortably, who cares? It's not like I'm not pretty well-paid as it is.

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It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:Why not... by StevenHenderson · 2004-09-02 02:19 · Score: 1

Yes, well then you are very fortunate to have such a good life. In my post, I did not say that everyone would want to take it, but just imagine how many would.
Re:Why not... by Leebert71 · 2004-09-02 02:22 · Score: 1

As a condition of winning and redeeming a cash prize...(f) licenses to TopCoder and Google rights to all information submitted during the tournament (including rights to source code and other executables)...
It's standard legal verbage but that doesn't make it any less crappy. Google gets full ownership to the output of the best and the brightest for next to nothing which they can then use to go out and make multi-millions with. Invest a few 100k to potentially make millions for years on end into the future? Obviously playing off the throbbing egos of geeks has a pretty good ROI.
To me it's no different than focus groups...which are nothing more than employees that work for free. Some corporation, under the auspices of trying to give you a better product, gets you to show them exactly what makes you tick so they can turn around and use it to siphon away your income. Every time I'm in a store and I see a sign that says, "Help us to make our product better, please send in your ideas!" I can't help but smirk. How forking lazy can someone get? Not only does the corp want to take my money, but they want me to figure out how to do it for them. I come up with some great idea and freely hand it over just so they can turn right around and sell it back to me.
No thanks.

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Must...drop...pantaloons.
Re:Why not... by buttahead · 2004-09-02 02:26 · Score: 2, Informative

There is an office in Dublin and Zurich. Google has offices all over the world... you might be somewhat close to one.
Re:Why not... by buttahead · 2004-09-02 02:29 · Score: 1

The salary is lower than the industry average. They are really pushing the stock options... with a pretty high strike price. The options would probably still pay off... but not the salary.
Re:Why not... by Theatetus · 2004-09-02 03:33 · Score: 1

Since when do focus groups work for free?

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All's true that is mistrusted
Re:Why not... by flibuste · 2004-09-02 05:10 · Score: 1

It there was a way to make millions with code written in a rush like in this contest, there would be a lot of millionnaires around.
Your argument doesn't stand
Re:Why not... by flibuste · 2004-09-02 05:12 · Score: 1

Has it occured to you that "worldwide" also means "in the UK".
Please read the parent post before replying
Re:Why not... by themoodykid · 2004-09-02 05:34 · Score: 1

Well, the registration system pretty much asks you about your current work situation, education level and even lets you upload your damn resume! They're not hiding the fact that this is a great way for them to recruit.
Re:Why not... by ricotest · 2004-09-02 06:02 · Score: 1

As a UK student, if I (and I won't) got offered a job at Google I would take the next plane out of here. Yes I have family, friends and all that jazz, but you have to look at the a) terrible IT job market and b) supreme coolness of a Google position.
Re:Why not... by Leebert71 · 2004-09-02 08:13 · Score: 1

Granted, some do get paid. But are you prepared to make a living at it?

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Must...drop...pantaloons.
Re:Why not... by Leebert71 · 2004-09-02 08:35 · Score: 1

There are a lot of millionares around and I don't see how my argument fails to stand based on what you said. The probability of finding ideas/code that works greatly increases when you are able to greatly increase the amount of ideas/code you have to work from.
If this was really just a friendly competition designed to enrich the community of programmers why not make all the resulting code freely available to the participants so they can be enriched? At the very least, what is the reason for stipulating that entrants give up all rights to and ownership of their intellectual material? If they weren't just trying to get something for free then why not put a clause in the legalese that would entitle an entrant to a portion of the profit that results from their input? That, to me, would be the right thing to do.
Having said that...Google isn't putting a gun to anyone's head. No one has to enter this competition. So call me a curmudgeon and be done with it. :)

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Must...drop...pantaloons.
Re:Why not... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:10 · Score: 0

They interview all of the finalists. That is the real point of the compeition, not some lame PR stunt.
Re:Why not... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:15 · Score: 0

I'll be damned - someone on slashdot that actually took the time to look and see what something is really about before posting a bunch of BS. Just when I was thinking this was a NPC problem too.
Re:Why not... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:17 · Score: 0

Curmudgeon.

This is not a code 'conspiracy' competition. It is a recruiting tool. They're not going to ask you to create the next great search algorithm in a one hour contest. Trust me.
Re:Why not... by Leebert71 · 2004-09-02 09:46 · Score: 1

Yes it is. Haven't you seen AntiTrust?

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Must...drop...pantaloons.
Re:Why not... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:59 · Score: 0

OMG - last years satalite problem really did control communications satalites? Eeeck. I did that one in 5 minutes, hopefully it won't fall on me!

oh great by KingPunk · 2004-09-02 00:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

heh. thats all we need, people who can brag about how fast they can code.
only problem, when coding in speed, many people make more errors
its a proven fact that if you think through your objective 1st, and take a decent ammount of time doing so, you're more efficent.
in fact, i believe it was in the mid-70s that the us govt, thought about increasing the work day from 8hours/day x 5days, to 10hours/day x 4 days to make it more productive for workers.

Re:oh great by attam · 2004-09-02 00:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

have you ever done a topcoder competition? it's about speed AND accuracy. sure the fastest person gets the most points, but a) if your code doesn't pass their system tests you get ZERO points and b) other people can look at your code, try to find faults and challenge it. if they challenge you and your stuff breaks (takes more than allotted amount of time, gets a corner case wrong etc) they get bonus points and you lost your points. i think this is a pretty neat system, and i dont think it's advocates bad practices. remember, these problems are designed to be solved quickly.
Re:oh great by KingPunk · 2004-09-02 01:03 · Score: 1

aka google's way to draw more publicity. i understand about the whole accuracy vs speed thing, and how one can challenge somebody else's code. its a decent concept, but there are no realy rewards. 23K, pfft, i know how much google is worth ;)
Re:oh great by shmert · 2004-09-02 02:56 · Score: 3, Funny

I tried topCoder for a while. Seems that writing obfuscated code is actually an advantage, since people challenging it will be intimidated by its complexity, and reluctant to challenge it. Possible mistakes are buried in junk. Somewhat unrelated, but one of the funnier rounds I saw was for a problem which had a small possible set of results. I don't remember the specifics, but someone posted the following code, baiting someone to challenge the result: public class CorrectDoor { public int whichDoor(String[] args) { return (int) (Math.random() * 10); // Do you feel lucky, punk? // Go ahead, then, challenge } }

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You drank my drink, you drunk!
Re:oh great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 04:51 · Score: 0

Actually, shouldn't readability be a criteria for scoring?

Think about someone programming in C# using Visual Studio. The .Net obfuscator is right there, and takes seconds to run. It seems like it would be trivial for someone to get a 0 point reduction in the challenge round due to using this tool.
Re:oh great by slutsker · 2004-09-02 07:36 · Score: 1

Even if some of the code you're talking about passes the challenges, it will still fail the system tests, so it won't really work.
Re:oh great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:27 · Score: 0

You have obviously never competed in TopCoder. Why don't you spend some time reviewing some of the submissions that the TopCoder system said were correct for errors and post all of them here for us to marvel at.

I have faith in you. You are the greatest. After all, you are Neo. Where others failed, you'll see the subtle off by one errors. Where others saw closure, you'll see the path that causes a greedy submission to fail. You'll find the corners that got past the 50 to 100 unit tests that the TopCoder system used to validate the submissions.

We'll wait for you Neo. Please hurry. We don't have much time.
Re:oh great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:30 · Score: 0

ROFLMAO... well, I guess there is a that one in ten chance that could bite you in the ass. :)
Re:oh great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:35 · Score: 0

Code obfuscation is illegal. If you see something that looks like obfuscated code, report it to the judges, who will review it and fail the submission if it is. I would even report someone using lowercase L, trying to make it look like the number one, l vs 1.

What normally happens is you've spent 30 minutes figuring out the hard problem and now you have 5 to 10 minutes to code the thing. So you end up using variable names like i, j, n, m, etc. You're tabbing might get a little off, etc.
Re:oh great by dosun88888 · 2004-09-02 20:29 · Score: 1

Wouldn't it pass even that too, sometimes?

~D

In case of slashdotting by chris_eineke · 2004-09-02 00:20 · Score: 4, Funny

Google Cache
;)

--
"All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke

Re:In case of slashdotting by alex_ware · 2004-09-02 04:14 · Score: 1

actually the domain's topcoder.com not google.com so google is hosting the cache for a partner site

--
If you have nothing useful to say post as AC.
Re:In case of slashdotting by frankwoman · 2004-09-02 06:18 · Score: 1

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:zhool8dxBV4J: www.google.com/+google&hl=en

Caffeine by Threni · 2004-09-02 00:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

Why would I want to `grab some caffeine`? Surely a good nights sleep is more conducive to concentration?

Re:Caffeine by KingPunk · 2004-09-02 00:23 · Score: 1

a real "geek" doesnt need sleep. im working on my 27th hour now. hah. and im -caffiene and -sleep :/
Re:Caffeine by geighaus · 2004-09-02 00:39 · Score: 1

talking about stereotypes... caffeine is a pretty lousy drug at doing what it does. you can achieve much more fruitful results with for example yohimbine with less side effects than caffeine (yohimbine works as an afrodizziac too)
Re:Caffeine by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 00:42 · Score: 0

yes an afrodizziac. good showing there pal.
Re:Caffeine by KingPunk · 2004-09-02 00:44 · Score: 1

and thats what us geeks really need, is an afrodisiac. rawr. :)
now we're in buisness.. hehe.
Re:Caffeine by palad1 · 2004-09-02 00:45 · Score: 1, Funny

(yohimbine works as an afrodizziac too)

Let me guess, you spell Viagra with a ! and a double 4, don't you?
Re:Caffeine by counterplex · 2004-09-02 00:49 · Score: 1

Good thing I dont take yohimbine then. The last thing I want is to be on speed but a little dizzy. I'd rather take something that's an aphrodisiac + caffeine any day. But that's just me. ;)

--
$x = ($x * 10) % 10 >= 5 ? 1 + int $x : int $x
Re:Caffeine by KingPunk · 2004-09-02 01:07 · Score: 1

haha. i love how we're all smartasses, just waiting to get at somebody else :)
oh the love the /. community brings. imagine all of us, around a cozy camp fire singing christmas tunes in mid-december. :)
"STFU U n00b, b4 eye r0x0r j00r b0x0r!! RAWRRRR!"
Re:Caffeine by lachlan76 · 2004-09-02 01:07 · Score: 1

Not everyone works that way - I'm still at school though, but I sleep 12 till 6, have some coffee to get me up in the morning, and I can code for hours.
Sometimes however, when I sleep 10 till 7, I'm really tired all day, and can't get anything done.
Just because some people's brains work one way doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

Seeing as how I'm on slashdot now, rather than writing code, you know how long I slept last night ;)
Re:Caffeine by dave420 · 2004-09-02 01:41 · Score: 1

It's pretty hard to sleep and code at the same time ;)
Re:Caffeine by Threni · 2004-09-02 02:12 · Score: 1

> Sometimes however, when I sleep 10 till 7, I'm really tired all day, and can't
> get anything done.

Sleep works in cycles. If you naturally awake (not when you're disturbed by noise or whatever) and get up then, you'll be fine. If you sleep on and then your alarm clock wakes you when you're deep in the trough of the next cycle you'll feel like shit and will (think you) need caffeine to wake you up.

Once you stop taking caffeine and god knows what else to wake yourself up in the morning and put you to sleep in the evening you'll settle back into your natural rhythm.

I guess this is less nerdy, however. Depends if you want to do nerdy things or design and write good code, I guess.
Re:Caffeine by lachlan76 · 2004-09-02 02:33 · Score: 1

If I go to my natural sleep cycle, I end up about 3 to 5 hours late for school ;)

I go off caffiene whenever I run out of coffee, and my parents buy Blend 43. I've looked at my code from that period. My internal reaction was somewhere along the lines of "What the fuck were you thinking???".
Besides, I do actually like coffee for the taste.
Re:Caffeine by el_chicano · 2004-09-02 02:33 · Score: 1

yes an afrodizziac. good showing there pal.
Hmmm... yohimbe is from West Africa.

It's called a sense of humor, pal. Get one!

--
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Re:Caffeine by Threni · 2004-09-02 02:57 · Score: 1

> If I go to my natural sleep cycle, I end up about 3 to 5 hours late for school
> ;)

Sure - I'm not saying it's compatible with modern living! I get my caffeine from tea, not coffee, when I need some. Although I go for the low-caffeine teas, such as green or white. They're pretty healthy - if you smoke then I recommend you try to drink green/white tea daily (in addition to eating more fruit/veg than you normally would) as they are both powerful antioxidants.

Anyway, that's enough healthy advice for one day! Fetch me my rizla and my compiler!

Strawberry Jam (I think I speak for all of us...) by otisg · 2004-09-02 00:28 · Score: 0, Offtopic

My mom makes good strawberry (and plum) jam. Should I sign her up?

--
Simpy

Yearh... by beaviz · 2004-09-02 00:32 · Score: 3, Funny

Lets give them a Slashdot traffic jam!

Web APIs welcome? by manmanic · 2004-09-02 00:32 · Score: 1

I reckon good applications of the Google Web APIs should also get a chance at the winnings - some crackers that spring to mind are Google Cookin recipe search, Copyscape web plagiarism search, the TouchGraph Google browser, and Google Alert for tracking topics. Isn't the point of both the Jam and the APIs to invite external developers to weave their magic around Google's platform?

Help me win by nearlygod · 2004-09-02 00:32 · Score: 4, Funny

I'm offering $2,500 to anyone who can give my a idea that goes on to win. I am also offering $2,500 to anyone who can impliment said idea so that it results in winning the contest. Any takers?

--
The Tools Of Ignorance wanna be a tool?

Re:Help me win by Dr.+Evil · 2004-09-02 00:45 · Score: 0

I'm offering $2,500 to anyone who can give my a idea that goes on to win. I am also offering $2,500 to anyone who can impliment said idea so that it results in winning the contest. Any takers?
<idea>Don't cheat</idea>
Where's my $5k?
Re:Help me win by attam · 2004-09-02 01:06 · Score: 4, Funny

undisputable proof that bill gates does read /.

Quebecians by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 00:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

From the rules: The Google Code Jam 2004 is void in the Quebec province of Canada

Could somebody inform me as to why?

Re:Quebecians by Cat_Byte · 2004-09-02 01:07 · Score: 1

Because they're using that low-grade legalized marijuana and code weird.

--
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
Re:Quebecians by Zardoz44 · 2004-09-02 01:07 · Score: 4, Informative

I can't give you the details why, off the top of my head, but this is a standard rule for most contests in Canada or North America. There are special lottery rules in Quebec. It's been this way for as long as I care to remember.
What those rules are, I don't know. I could look, but I don't really care.
Re:Quebecians by mrtroy · 2004-09-02 01:26 · Score: 3, Informative

I believe in Quebec contests have to have equal chances of everyone winning, with no purchase required. So, you cannot give a prize to whoever actually wins the contest.

--
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
Re:Quebecians by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 02:58 · Score: 0

I would have preferred something more detailed, but thank you anyway.
Re:Quebecians by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 04:28 · Score: 0

The answer to that is simple.

In the province of Quebec, The Régie des Lotteries et des Jeux has a law that says that every organisation that gives money in a contest or lottery in the province must proove they are serious by giving a part (5%-10%, i'm not sure) of the total prize money to the Régie. The official reason is to protect us "poor stupid Quebec citizen that needs protection" from fraud or false lotteries.
Some other would say that the law is there to pay for and justify the existence of said Régie...

The result of the law is that no one wants to pay the government so no one makes the contest available in the province.
Re:Quebecians by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:18 · Score: 0

In Canada, there are different rules that are applicable to "games of chance" versus "games of skill". This is the reason why many contests have a "skill-testing" question (generally a simple math problem). The legal reason is that by "testing your skill", the prize is awarded on the basis of you proving your skill, rather than chance alone. Consequently, the contest is not subject to the more convoluted and restrictive rules of a pure "game of chance". I believe that this (flimsy) logic does not hold true in Quebec. As a result, many contests that are valid in the rest of Canada are not valid in Quebec.

Incidentally, residents of Quebec are usually referred to as "Quebecois" (pronounced Kay-bec-kua, more or less - I'm an anglophone who doesn't read dictionaries for a living). But don't feel alone. The rules should read "... void in the Canadian province of Quebec".
Re:Quebecians by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:25 · Score: 0

because it doesn't return a result?
Re:Quebecians by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 11:30 · Score: 0

Thank you for the thorough and informative answer I was looking for.

About the subject line: I'm not a native speaker of either English or French, so I made up a word that seemed to make sense. Nice try, if you ask me :-)

Signed: The guy who asked the question.

No Perl? by CaptainBaz · 2004-09-02 00:37 · Score: 5, Interesting

Use Java, C++, C# or VB.NET.

No Perl?

No Python?

No ("cool" hacker language of the day)?

How many real geeks are they going to attract?

Re:No Perl? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 00:48 · Score: 5, Informative

It is because those are the languages supported by TopCoder, which runs the coding challenges for many different corporate sponsors. Google's tournament just happens to be one of the higher-profile ones out there.
Re:No Perl? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 00:55 · Score: 1, Interesting

Indeed. Why not?

From www.python.org:

"Python has been an important part of Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search quality at Google, Inc.
Re:No Perl? by Alpha_Traveller · 2004-09-02 00:57 · Score: 1

Okay, I can understand Java, C++ or C#...but VB.NET?????? Perl, Python, PHP and other languages are obviously the kinds of languages you really don't bother compiling. Java, C++ and C# make all sorts of sense as far as being compiled for speed, etc. But VB.NET??? Blech.

--
"Love is like pi - natural, irrational, and very important." (Lisa Hoffman)
Re:No Perl? by mondoterrifico · 2004-09-02 01:00 · Score: 3, Interesting

How many real geeks are they going to attract?
Thanks for the laugh. I didn't realize you people still existed. This isn't highschool where everyone "cool" dresses in black thinking they are the special ones.
Re:No Perl? by Da+Fokka · 2004-09-02 01:01 · Score: 1

There is very little difference in performance between VB.NET and C#. C# does have some features VB.NET does not have but frankly I think they will be of little importance in a programming contest. You are comfusing VB.NET, which - apart from the horrible syntax - is a mature, OOP language with VB6, which was a steaming pile of crap.
Re:No Perl? by Zwets · 2004-09-02 01:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

'Real geeks' are language-agnostic and won't care much what language they use for this.

Besides, some of the problems are presumably very processor-intensive (they mention chess problems) so a compiled language would be a better choice for that.

--
One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say. - Will Duran
Re:No Perl? by lachlan76 · 2004-09-02 01:04 · Score: 5, Funny

with VB6, which was a steaming pile of crap

VB6 has helped me quite a lot - NOTHING else has motivated me to learn C++ like VB6. *NOTHING*
Re:No Perl? by slackerboy · 2004-09-02 01:07 · Score: 1

Various programming languages are just different tools in my toolbox. Sometimes a screwdriver works really well and sometimes I just need a hammer.

--
Things to do today: See list of things to do yesterday
Re:No Perl? by Kumkwat · 2004-09-02 01:20 · Score: 1

Better yet,

No HASKELL or OCAML!!!

How are they going to attract brilliance if they don't allow you to use real languages.
Re:No Perl? by CaptainBaz · 2004-09-02 01:22 · Score: 2

Ha.

In the UK, everyone wears uniform at high school, but I know what you mean.

What I was actually alluding to was the fact that modern 'hacker/geek' languages like Perl or Python will often let you solve problems more quickly than eg. Java with its strict typing.

Given that the competition is effectively a race against time, it's a shame that you don't seem to be allowed to use a language designed to help you accomplish these things more quickly.

And yes, interpreted languages will be slower than compiled ones, but with Java's JVM and .NET's sprawling mass of runtime libraries, the difference may be less than you think.
Re:No Perl? by revscat · 2004-09-02 01:23 · Score: 1

To be fair, he was referring to a story on /. last week about what languages "cool" coders use. I would provide you with a link, but I'm lazy.
Re:No Perl? by Peter+Cooper · 2004-09-02 01:40 · Score: 3, Interesting

So you're saying that Google isn't full of 'real geeks'? I'd disagree, since it's well known they use Python and Perl in house.

Furthermore, languages like Python and Perl are far better known for doing Google-esque tasks than all of the languages in that list except C++.

There are a lot of insanely great Python and Perl programmers out there who'd need to do a few months' hard study of those other languages to be able to get up with there with the best in, say, C#.. and then find that they still need to use their old languages for all their regular work anyway.

Let's face it, this contest isn't designed for the best of the best to enter, it's designed for the best in C++, C#, VB.NET, and Java, which is a different thing entirely.
Re:No Perl? by Peter+Cooper · 2004-09-02 01:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

Perhaps they're not looking for people with true creativity or passion, because those people are already working on their own projects.

What they're looking for are typical Java, C#, and VB.NET (I'm excluding C++, as it's a catch-all) programmers who might be excellent coders, but typically lack originality and need to be spoon-fed with problems which they can then solve with some rapidly produced code.

The true masters out there aren't spoon-fed problems; they find the problems and then they solve them independently of the programming language. Google are looking for code grunts to do maintenance work. They already have the 'big minds' in the form of the many PhDs on their staff.
Re:No Perl? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 01:50 · Score: 0

VB.NET gets compiled into the same MSIL as C#.NET

Additionally, the goal here is SPEED and ACCURACY. Pound for pound, nothing beats the RAD power of Visual Studio + Visual Basic.NET
Re:No Perl? by Zwets · 2004-09-02 01:53 · Score: 1

I'm not saying Perl/Python aren't great languages (well, I would say that about Perl, but that's me - I know a lot of folks love it) or that they aren't sometimes the best tools for the job.

I'm saying that for a contest like this with mentally challenging problems, language is a very secondary concern. It is foremost about being a good programmer and being able to solve the problems in your head. Converting the solution to C++ or even VB.NET is very easy compared to that. I've been in contests like this and usually the solution is a fairly short,simple program - but devising the solution was anything but.

And I seriously doubt there are many programming geek who know Perl or Python well but don't know at least one of C(++)/C#/Java/VB.NET.

--
One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say. - Will Duran
Re:No Perl? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 02:02 · Score: 0

Of course there is no Perl. It would be too much of an advantage over the other languages.
Re:No Perl? by revscat · 2004-09-02 02:44 · Score: 1

And yes, interpreted languages will be slower than compiled ones
This is becoming less true over time, and already is not true in many cases. Modern interpreters can do statistical analysis on running code and make it more efficient over time. Doing this with compiled languages would require an intimate knowledge by the developer of all possible execution paths, something that becomes more time consuming than it is worth.
Moral: Compiled languages are not always faster in the long run.
Re:No Perl? by Peter+Cooper · 2004-09-02 02:56 · Score: 2, Informative

I've been a Perl coder for eight years, C for thirteen, and can get by in VB.. but there's no way I'd want to do high level data parsing in C or VB!

For a start, Perl is designed for the job. C is amazing for developing kernels, and doing low level stuff, but for parsing text? I think not. You can bash out a single line in Perl that would take 100+ lines to do in C or VB (unless you got some sort of regular expression control for VB, which might be against this contest anyway).

Use the tool for the job. Being language agnostic is not a bad idea when you begin a project, but it's pure idiocy to stick with a single language throughout and claim its cool because 'oh well, languages don't matter, ideas do'.. some languages are far better at certain things than others!
Re:No Perl? by mondoterrifico · 2004-09-02 03:06 · Score: 1

Heh, sorry for the tone of my reply. Will teach me to make comments before I have ingested the necessary caffeine.
Re:No Perl? by Zwets · 2004-09-02 03:13 · Score: 1

Did you read my post? I said exactly what you're saying now. Needless to say I agree with what you say, but it doesn't apply to this contest. It applies to larger projects where other considerations are important.

For a contest like this, it doesn't really matter what language you use, because these are more about mathematical challenges than software engineering / data processing challenges. That's how I see it, feel free to disagree.

--
One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say. - Will Duran
Re:No Perl? by Idarubicin · 2004-09-02 03:38 · Score: 2, Funny

How many real geeks are they going to attract?
All the ones that would sell their souls to be noticed by Google?
There are more than a few 'real' geeks that would write the code in BASIC while in a barrel going over Niagara Falls in exchange for a chance to work for Sergey Brin.

--
~Idarubicin
Re:No Perl? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:22 · Score: 0

OMG WTF! Ar3 u gr34t h4cz3r kn0\/\/n as "P4ul Duh lIsp3r"?! I honored.

Paul,

It appears that Google hires Java programmers w/o using Python in their contests?! I cannot believe this. You told me that Google always hires Python programmers that know Java because they are zuberl33t haxors. But if I spend 15 seconds looking at the help wanted ads at Googles web site (a shitty source of information on Google jobs if there ever was one), I see that this isn't true. In fact, it looks like Google hires far more Java programmers w/o Python experience then the other way around. And now the Google Code Jam doesn't even mention the word Python - I googled it! So Paul, from the land of Lisp and FUD, could you be full of crap and not know what the hell you are talking about? Of course not! You are l33t hax0r dude. Google jobs is wrong. What the hell were I thinking. Sheesh.

ps... Paul, I know this guy that says Lisp and Java are his two favorite languages. After studying under you, I know this cannot be true. So you know what I did? I killed him. Cause for he could never be great hacker like you.

In unrelated FUD news, did any of you feel bad after Sun went bankrupt last year? You know, uber-geek haxor ESR said that they were soon bankrupt. So they must have gone bankrupt - especially since they only have like 8 billion cash. They need like 200 billion cash not to go bankrupt. Or maybe a trillion. Who knows. Anwyays, oh come on now, don't go and check Sun's website. You don't believe the fud? That is obviously not as a good source of information - check ESR's proclamations! He is \/\/1z4rd!

The moral: FUD can be slung in all directions.
Re:No Perl? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 13:24 · Score: 0

That might just be the dumbest thing I've ever read here.
Re:No Perl? by lars · 2004-09-03 10:22 · Score: 1

If that's the case, don't you think they're looking in the wrong place? I was a finalist last year and also know many of the competitors from other competitions as well. I think more than half of them already have PhD's or are currently working towards one.

So, will they take the winning app and block it? by mbourgon · 2004-09-02 00:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

I can see it now - something like the GoogleMail FS comes out of it, only to get blocked like the notifiers are.

--
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples

Indeed! by arhar · 2004-09-02 00:57 · Score: 1

I agree. Real hackers never use those crappy modern languages like C and PL/1. Any coding competition that does not require assembly language use and going through memory dumps is retarded, and no self-respecting real hacker should attend.

Pathetic by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 01:03 · Score: 0, Insightful

This pathetic competition - they moved away from real life problem of "here is lots of data show what you can do with it in your own time with code scaling well" to "school-like" timed tests. This is totally not realistic. As I said "school-like".

But it is certainly easier to "grade" submissions - they have got automated system to do that. So instead of tasking people with coming up with creative solution they just check your memory and do-it-in-60-minutes job.

Appauling - Google is NOT what it was before, and this is manifested in many areas including programming.

Re:Pathetic by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 11:05 · Score: 0

Is that you, Paul? f34r!

No what the funny part is.... a bunch of nitwits would find some other things to bitch about. "There can't be a fair programming contest, cause then I would be just a LOSER!"

Interesting times for a competition like that by CodeMaster · 2004-09-02 01:04 · Score: 0, Troll

Now that M$ is all over the place with trying to find a "Google remedy", the dropping of the WinFS from the upcoming Longhorn (as if it was really "upcoming"...), Google seems like it is twisting the knife when highly skilled (I hope) hackers will come up with new ways to expand the capabilities/uses of the "G"...

Watch out M$ - here we come...

OTOH - It might just end up with a neater way to Googlehack more funny data out of the web (http://johnny.ihackstuff.com/)

get a free ipod! This really works... And... GMail invites to the next 4 to hop in... (1 invite already sent...)

After gmail I've hated Google by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 01:07 · Score: 1, Interesting

There is nothing more annoying than having people beg and give gmail accounts on every stinking message board!

Cut the crap Google. You lamers with gmail accounts should get a real mail account and stop trashing forums!

How to win prizes by Radiate · 2004-09-02 01:26 · Score: 2, Funny

Use Google for flooking up the answers.

Re:Caffeine, Welcome to Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 01:27 · Score: 0

...You must be new around here.

Challenge #1: Re-write the interface by Tarwn · 2004-09-02 01:42 · Score: 4, Informative

yep, thefirst challenge will be to rewrite the TopCoder interface to convince it that it does not need 100% of the CPU...that 5-10 second pauses while your typing code should NOT occur...that in a timed competition it is not reasonable to make someone go back and retype something 5 lines earlier simplybecause the interface froze up...

I mean crashes are on thing, you would expect the connection to get lost occasionally (try every time I have tried to do a practice problem), but c'mon, who hosts a coding competition with an interface that idles at 100% CPU usage?

-T

--
Whee signature.

Re:Challenge #1: Re-write the interface by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 07:33 · Score: 0

Sounds like something is wrong with your box; the Arena is used by many many people every contest without such complaints.
Re:Challenge #1: Re-write the interface by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:28 · Score: 0

Any contest for VBA using Access 97?
Re:Challenge #1: Re-write the interface by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 11:07 · Score: 0

Yeah, like I've seen several 100 people use the TC arena and NOT complain about a single thing, so maybe it is just YOU!

Re:OT: GMail by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 01:45 · Score: 0

Gmail, Gmail, everywhere.....

Chickens won't even allow Jython by Baldrson · 2004-09-02 01:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

If you aren't going to allow any of the major dynamically typed langauges like Python or Perl or even Jython (if you're really stuck on those libs), then isn't it an admission that Paul Graham is right and that Google's programming contest is simply an example of subgreatness?

--
Seastead this.

Re:Chickens won't even allow Jython by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:32 · Score: 0

I guess the irony that Google would use a programming contest w/o Python as a language is a bit too subtle for you. So here it is.... Paul Graham does NOT know what the hell he is talking about. Don't believe me? Check the job listings at Google and you'll find more Java programming positions that don't require Python than those that do.

So you can either believe the bullshit fud of Paul or the truth that is a mouse click away and staring you in the face. Of course, you'll choose not to since I haven't thrown in a bunch of meta-religous nonsense and easily refulted bull crap (eg. 3 fingered LISP programmers are more productive than 5 fingered Java programmers, perl programmers saved the internet, etc).
Re:Chickens won't even allow Jython by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 19:42 · Score: 0

WTF are you talking about? And WhyTF is this post considered intestesting? It is retarded.
Re:Chickens won't even allow Jython by bill_mcgonigle · 2004-09-03 17:51 · Score: 1

...Google's programming contest is simply an example of subgreatness

OK, I'll bite. Your comment is the only hit on Google for the word "subgreatness".

Of course you are baiting Google, so there's that to consider...

--
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Re:Chickens won't even allow Jython by Baldrson · 2004-09-03 18:05 · Score: 1

Of course you are baiting Google, so there's that to consider...
Well, there's also this to consider.
I'm actually rather surprised no one coined the take-off "subgreatness" at all before. There's been a lot of verbage indexed since J. R. "Bob" Dobbs first appeared on the scene.

--
Seastead this.

Just in case... by Anonymous+Custard · 2004-09-02 02:01 · Score: 0, Redundant

Here's a summary from the faq, in case Google gets slashdotted:

Summary of the Tournament
The Google(TM) Code Jam 2004 is being offered by Google Inc. ("Google") and TopCoder, Inc. ("TopCoder"). Google is using the results of the Code Jam 2004 to identify possible employees for their company. The Code Jam 2004 will take place between Wednesday, September 1 and Friday, October 15, 2004. It begins with a 2-week online registration, after which all registered individuals will participate in a Qualification Round to determine who will compete in the programming tournament. The tournament consists of one (1) day of qualification, two (2) online elimination rounds and one (1) onsite final round. All participants who compete in Round 1 (the first online elimination round) will receive a "Google Code Jam 2004, Powered by TopCoder" t-shirt. In addition, Google will award $50,000 in cash prizes to the 50 finalists in the tournament.

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Re:Just in case... by cpct0 · 2004-09-02 02:42 · Score: 1

I Google gets slashdotted, I fear the world is going to end!

I really sincerely think this could be the other way around ^^ If Google decided to put a "Let's slashdot slashdot" link on their main page, I'm sure Slashdot servers would cry, fall on their knees and they would get out the little white flag.
Re:Just in case... by jessedh · 2004-09-02 02:57 · Score: 1

in case Google gets Slashdotted? if /. can bring down Google it has bigger problems than the logistics of the competition
Re:Just in case... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-12 02:17 · Score: 0

Redundant mod meta-modded unfair, as this is clearly a joke.

why would you? by oogoody · 2004-09-02 02:05 · Score: 1

Why would you give new technology to
some of the richest people on earth
so they can profit and patent it for
basically nothing?

Google is now more like M$. Times have
changed.

Re:why would you? by juhaz · 2004-09-02 03:50 · Score: 1

10k and almost guaranteed job at Google is "basically nothing" for few hours of work?

I guess you must be some of those richest people of Earth too if that sounds like a lousy payment for amount of time involved. That's several months of wage for most people, and to students it's a fortune. Heck, many would do it just for the free flight and accommodation on the trip to Google HQ.

Google is now more like M$. Times have
changed.

Yup. Time to go buy a thicker tinfoil hat, all those great hackers at Google are now evil too, and they're working on new, improved mind control technologies.

Re:Caffeine, Welcome to Slashdot by Threni · 2004-09-02 02:15 · Score: 1

No, I used to do that sort of thing 10 years ago when I wrote games in assembly language. I've since learned that it's a good way of impairing one's ability to think straight for prolonged periods of time.

Chickens won't even allow Jython by Baldrson · 2004-09-02 02:24 · Score: 1

If Topcoder isn't going to allow any of the major dynamically typed langauges like Python or Perl or even Jython (if Topcoder really needs Java compatibility because they don't have the resources to provide a new language), then isn't it an admission that Paul Graham is right and that all contests based on the Topcoder selections are simply demonstrations of subgreatness?

What are all these guys afraid of? A fair contest?

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The link to Paul Graham's Python Paradox on /. by Baldrson · 2004-09-02 02:30 · Score: 2, Informative

See the /. article on Paul Graham's Python Paradox"

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Seastead this.

What a choice... by BarryNorton · 2004-09-02 03:06 · Score: 1

Java, C++, C# or VB.NET

I wonder why there's so much more prestige attached to the ICFP Progamming Contest

Re:What a choice... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:46 · Score: 0

ICFP is more prestigous? Hmm.... I won't disagree, but I would be interested in why you think that this is the case.

Having competed in both, I just see them as two different contests.
Re:What a choice... by BarryNorton · 2004-09-03 00:55 · Score: 1

ICFP is more prestigous? Hmm.... I won't disagree, but I would be interested in why you think that this is the case.

It's probably primarily my bias as an academic.

You don't score many points with a community by (not just ignoring, but) out-lawing the last few decades of their work (i.e. on programming languages)!

Pictures of the Topcoders by Baldrson · 2004-09-02 03:27 · Score: 0, Redundant

Click here for a gallery of Topcoder mugshots.

PS: Why won't Topcoder allow any dynamically typed languages? The least they could do is allow Jython -- it runs right on the JVM so they would hardly have to lift a finger to allow it. This conspicuous absence of dynamically typed languages just maybe excluding the greatest programmers according to Paul Grahams's "Python Paradox". Why not find out whether dynamically typed languages really are all they're cracked up to be by guys like Paul Graham by making Topcoder a really fair contest that includes at least one dynamically typed language?

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Seastead this.

Missing Option by ccozan · 2004-09-02 03:29 · Score: 1

got there, log on, checked first practice problem.
Got amazed, something is missing in "choose your language":

Perl.

PS.How you can think of a fast coding competition without Perl??? That's beyond my comprehension...

Re:Missing Option by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:49 · Score: 0

Oh, I'm sure it isn't the only thing beyond your comprehension.

Re:Caffeine, Welcome to Slashdot by cymen · 2004-09-02 03:36 · Score: 1

I actually agree with you but you go try and write some story copy ;).

Why is this a "programming" challange? by clambake · 2004-09-02 03:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

I read through the various sample problems, and I see nothing at all resembling a "programming challenge". Sure there are algorithms that need to be written, but it's just that, algorithms and logic. Things you can write down on a sheet of paper in long hand. The only reason programming is involved in any way, shape, or form is because it's an easy way to test people's algorithms, not becuase it's a fundamental part of this "challenge".

I offer that a mathematician who has never in his life even SEEN or HEARD of a computer could solve these problems, all of them, without a line of code. How then can this be considered a "programming" challenge?

A REAL programming challenge would deal with the real problems that programmers face: memory leaks, error correction, fault tolerance, user interface design, maintainability, speed, scalability, efficient object model design, database schema design, etc.

It's unfortunate that people look at these contests and think, whoah, that dude must be some hot shit programmer to be able to solve that! But really, he could be a crap programmer (hell they offer VB.NET for gosh sakes!) and just took a whole lot of logic and calculus. That doesn't mean if you hire him he'll do a damn bit of good for your company. It doesn't mean that any project he works on will be in any way maintainable. In fact, more likely than not, any code he writes will be only understandable by him and will turn into a taboo "don't touch it becuase it'll break if you sneeze" mess that costs endless amounts of pain and money.

I wish for once I saw someone have the intelligence to put out a REAL *programming* challange. One that requires you to think about entire systems, about design and IMPLICATIONS of design, about the subtle balance between speed and stability, about the umpteen million things that divides the '1337 h4X0r who is brilliant but considers random crashes to be expected from the professional and vastly underappreciated programmer who's work is so rock solid that he doesn't need a pager for the weekends. THOSE are the people who should be getting the props.

Re:Why is this a "programming" challange? by lars · 2004-09-02 04:08 · Score: 1

Meh. Google likes to hire these potentially "crap programmers", and I think I'll take their word about what makes a good programmer over yours.

The bottom line is that to do well in these kind of competitions, you have to be smart, but also able to implement your ideas quickly and accurately. The latter being a lot less trivial than you make it out to be. I rather doubt many people that smart would have much trouble designing good UIs or writing maintainable code. Problem solving skills are transferrable.
Re:Why is this a "programming" challange? by loqi · 2004-09-02 05:12 · Score: 1

As one who has competed in several TC contests and ACM ICPC regionals, I can assure you it takes more than being a mathematician to solve these problems. Sure, you often have to do some sort of complexity analysis to determine which algorithms are right out (if something is going to take 20! searches, you're SOL), but writing that certain special BFS or Floyd's that tackles the problem at hand is as much of a coding challenge as it is an analytical one.

That said, I agree that there are many more aspects to being a good programmer than algorithm-hacking. I'm surprised you haven't looked at TopCoder... check out their component design and development competitions. It's all about good software design and implementation, and there are frequent payouts involved.

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Re:Why is this a "programming" challange? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 05:22 · Score: 0

However, people who are that smart might get bored writing UI code or database interfaces or other everyday stuff that all software systems depend on. Then they get the bright idea of making an abstract code generator that writes all the boring code from a succinct spec, thus creating an enormously complex monstrosity to do something which should have been so simple that it's boring.
Re:Why is this a "programming" challange? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:51 · Score: 0

Fantasy Land is in Anaheim, CA. Have fun.
Re:Why is this a "programming" challange? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 11:10 · Score: 0

They also have design and development contests, but I'm afraid that you would probably suck at those too. Given your inability to read and all.
Re:Why is this a "programming" challange? by jesdynf · 2004-09-02 17:20 · Score: 1

I wish for once I saw someone have the intelligence to put out a REAL *programming* challange. One that requires you to think about entire systems, about design and IMPLICATIONS of design, about the subtle balance between speed and stability, about the umpteen million things that divides the '1337 h4X0r who is brilliant but considers random crashes to be expected from the professional and vastly underappreciated programmer who's work is so rock solid that he doesn't need a pager for the weekends. THOSE are the people who should be getting the props.

A real programming challenge? Fine. You're on.

Go make some money.

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Google's new profit plan by KillaKen187 · 2004-09-02 04:02 · Score: 2, Funny

1. Don't hire real coders, but have a contest with hacker community during their free time.
2. Make contest problem related to business related objectives and take code to hired code "fixers" to intergrate into current products
3. PROFIT (and happy shareholders)

Sounds a little like the movie Antitrust to me, but who am I to judge, "Don't Be Evil" ohhh I mean Google

Re:Caffeine, Welcome to Slashdot by P-Nuts · 2004-09-02 04:10 · Score: 1

Which impairs the ability to think straight more? The caffeine or coding games in assembly language?

Gimme that invite! by BOredAtWork · 2004-09-02 05:17 · Score: 0

Send a gmail invite my way, please!

Why? Because I asked nicely, and I have a really low and ultra-cool UID here.

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Just lurking, thanks!

Re:Gimme that invite! by StevenHenderson · 2004-09-02 05:25 · Score: 0

Um....an email address to send it to might be nice. :)
Re:Gimme that invite! by BOredAtWork · 2004-09-02 08:33 · Score: 0

dsracic at vt dot edu

Some uber-geek YOU are, not clicking the profile name, and searching around for the all-elusive address!

(Anyone else appreciate the humor in needing an email address to GET an email address?)

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Just lurking, thanks!

TopCoder have a brilliant business model... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 05:17 · Score: 0

The folks at TopCoder have developed the impossible: a business model fueled by an inexhaustable resource. That resource? The arrogance of programmers.

"Join us! Program dull enterprise applications in dull enterprise languages for dull enterprises! Work alongside several thousand of your most competitive, showboating peers under public scrutiny! All this for payouts vastly less than even middling contracts!"

Still, though, Google. They're cool and stuff.

Re:TopCoder have a brilliant business model... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:55 · Score: 0

That one guy was right. Sounds like another insecure Slashdotter to me. I doubt you would do well anyways.

tpo coder comeptitions are a joke by Krater76 · 2004-09-02 05:54 · Score: 1

If you feel like cheating you can win. But anyone thinking of trying the competition question as to whether you want to lose because others do. I did a competition a couple years ago and thought I did well. Was near the top of my group and had a couple successful challenges. The only problem was that there were other people who had two accounts. They used one account to try the problems and get the proper solution and then used the other to paste the result and get the maximum points. It's like playing high-school soccer against Beckham; you can't win unless you cheat. I haven't been back since so maybe they found a way around this problem but unless they found a way around this problem I think it's probably still quite prevalent.

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Re:tpo coder comeptitions are a joke by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 07:29 · Score: 0

The admins actively look for and catch such cheats, and correct the results.

Generally the people who do well also participate in the more social aspects of TopCoder and it's clear they know their stuff.

Re:Quebeçois by jeblucas · 2004-09-02 06:58 · Score: 1

Someone else informed you as to why Quebec makes a lots of contests void; I'm informing you that they are referred to as Quebeçois.

"Quebecians" is really cringeworthy.

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What can a programmer/architect do in a year? by presidenteloco · 2004-09-02 07:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

If I were google, I'd be a lot more interested
in what a programmer/software systems architect
can accomplish in a year than in a day.

A day is totally random.

Also, shouldn't the candidate's creativity
at originating novel ideas count for something
and not just their "well-studied code mechanic"
skills?

Spoken from the perspective of someone who used
to get ~100% on the portions of tests that I
completed in the allowed time for the test.
Unfortunately, I only completed the first
80 or 90% of the test because I thought more
like an Ent than like a squirrel.

So what was my ability? 98%, or 85% ?
I suppose for all those relatively trivial
problems that I have to solve in 1 hour or
less (strikingly few problems like that in
s/w eng. in my experience) I'm only an 85%er.

Usually I only have to solve problems in
real-time when someone else has screwed up
their planning phase (e.g. let's do this
live important demo before ever trying it
first.)

I think out of the code jam, google will
find very good plumbers. Maybe what they
need to find are software people who are
the equivalent of Rem Koolhas
or Daniel Libeskind (or Sergei Brin and Larry
Page). You won't find them entering
1-hour or 1-day coding sprints.

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Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?

Re:What can a programmer/architect do in a year? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 02:08 · Score: 0

You're totally misunderstanding TopCoder algorithm competition. I suggest you enter a practice room for Division I and try doing it in an hour. Even if you're doing it in the highest-level language you know, you probably won't be able to get it done correctly in that time.

TopCoder contests are first and foremost about algorithms. The algorithms are not simple "omg I can do this with Dijkstra's" type things, they often require you to come up with a brand new approach. For many problems, there's also a large efficiency issue: there's a simple solution which can be summarized as "try all the possibilities", but which would take a couple thousand years to execute. Therefore you have to actually calculate the big-O asymptotic runtime of your algorithm and try to get one which will work for the input sizes given. These are exactly the types of algorithms that Google is looking for to improve web search and all the other crazy things it does. You simply can't write a search engine using just your 1337 Python skillz, even if you had a year to do it. Nor can you write it using just your software engineering skillz. What's the name of the design pattern for keyword-based search on X terrabytes of data stored on a cluster?

If you could come up with the right algorithm for each problem every time, then you would probably be in the top 100 at TopCoder with only rudimentary code-writing skills. Most problems don't require more than 1-2 pages of C++ code. Only when you can get, say, the Easy and Medium on a consistent basis do coding skills really start to provide an advantage. Then, the main issue becomes writing *correct* code. Not writing code quickly. Most often you will have time to write up 2 problems, but you'll easily make mistakes in one and fail for that reason. You should be able to notice mistakes as you type your code and to test it to try all the boundary cases. This skill is obviously useful in Real Life (tm) too: you save hours of sitting at a debugger stepping through a program becuase you put a wrong variable name on some line.

I suggest people actually try TopCoder before dismissing it as encouraging "grunt work" or speed. If you like math and problemsolving, there's even a chance you'll have a lot of fun doing it.

It's Actually Called an "Algorithm" Challenge by stevemm81 · 2004-09-02 07:42 · Score: 1

If you go to topcoder.com and look at the leaderboard, etc., you'll see that this type of competition is actually classified as "algorithm." The site advertises "programming" contests in general, but the component contests are probably closer to what you had in mind as the ideal than what you and they both identify as "algorithm."

Re:It's Actually Called an "Algorithm" Challenge by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:53 · Score: 0

OMG - are you suggesting that a Slashdotter should 'read' before replying? Funny man. :)

Such *choice*! by Dwonis · 2004-09-02 09:06 · Score: 1

Use Java, C++, C# or VB.NET. Pick any of these programming languages to code your solutions.

Oh boy! We have the opportunity to use one of four different pain-in-the-ass programming languages!

What a waste of time.

Re:Such *choice*! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 02:11 · Score: 0

If you actually look at the problems and some solutions submitted by people, you'll notice that they're very much doable with these languages (especially C++). Nobody is asking you to write some hierarchy of 100 classes. All you need is probably a couple of loops, some if statements, maybe a recursive function somewhere. Even in Java, most TopCoder problems can be written up in less than 100 lines.

60 minutes is not arbitrary--it's an hour by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 09:41 · Score: 0

Google say:

Google is looking for engineers with the programming skill to rewrite the world's information infrastructure. The Google Code Jam 2004 is one way we hope to find them. While we don't impose arbitrary deadlines on our engineers, we do put a premium on well-implemented code.

So far I see two loopholes:

1. Of course the contest is all about
arbitrary deadlines. BUT they aren't being
imposed on Google engineers.

2. There is some magical quality to
the deadline of 60 minutes that, say, 61
minutes does not have.

Bleh.

Re:60 minutes is not arbitrary--it's an hour by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 11:20 · Score: 0

Don't worry. It is OK. Let's face facts - you would suck anyways. No, don't get mad. You know it is true.

Go ahead. Read more bullshit.... http://www.paulgraham.com/

You'll feel better about yourself and soon won't care about the people solving problems in a few minutes that take you hours, days or even weeks. It'll all make sense later (well, it will never make sense to you - just those of us who realize that you're brainwashed). Truthfully, they aren't better, you are just much worse, cause there ain't no spoon, right? I know, if only they would allow Perl, cause then you could do that DP problem in like 4 loc and amaze everyone. Oh well.

Old Problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 10:19 · Score: 0

Where can I find the problems from the CodeJam in 2003?

Re:Old Problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 13:32 · Score: 0

Register at www.topcoder.com and then open the arena applet. You'll see 100's of practice problems there. I'm not sure if they have last years code jam problems up though.

Re:Quebeçois by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 18:43 · Score: 0

Be smart in correcting people. Tu ne parle pas français. It's Québécois. The squiggle under the 'c' makes it a soft 'c', which is obviously wrong.

An even better "contest" by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 19:00 · Score: 0

Want to participate in a contest with guaranteed $60,000 or more in prize money?

Not very ingenous coding required, in fact it doesn't even have to be very good.

Typical challenges involve:
1) how to tell your boss he has bad BO.
2) sneaking out of the office at 3:00pm on a Friday w/o the boss seeing you
3) whether to try the chef lunch special in the cafeteria.

If at all interested, get a job.

Re:An even better "contest" by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-02 21:18 · Score: 0

Why is it that Slashdot is filled with lame posts?

209 comments