Make Money Fast

Yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 14:35 · Score: 4, Funny

It's Canadian money. That doesn't count.

(It's a joke! Posting anon since I'll be modded down to hell.)

Re:Yeah, but... by Justin205 · 2004-09-03 14:46 · Score: 3, Funny

But luckily it will be worth something in a few hundred years if it keeps going the way it is!

(I'm Canadian -- I can say that.)

--
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."
Re:Yeah, but... by willy134 · 2004-09-03 14:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

highest-quality counterfeit currency ever detected

Yeah those who do better are never detected. He is still not good enough obviously.

--
Can you ping me now?... Good!

Obligatory USian Viewpoint by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 14:37 · Score: 5, Funny

"All that Canadian money looks phony to me!"

Re:Obligatory USian Viewpoint by Skjie · 2004-09-03 14:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

At least it's harder to make Canadian money, with all the colours, than the green USD.
Re:Obligatory USian Viewpoint by kfg · 2004-09-03 14:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

I actually said that once ( I was younger and stupider) to a sweet young thing I met while staying in Quebec. She turned to me and told me that since most play money in Canada is green American play money to them it's American money that always looks like it's play money.

As it turns out it's all relative to your reference frame. Who woulda thunk it?

KFG

Knight Blinder. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 14:37 · Score: 5, Funny

"Even more interesting to note is the widescale effect this one guy had, since he and his confederates single-handedly managed to force businesses to stop accepting $100CDN bills, thus affecting literally millions of people."

One man can make a difference.

$100 CN by HMA2000 · 2004-09-03 14:38 · Score: 2, Funny

What is that like 84 cents US?

Re:$100 CN by g-to-the-o-to-the-g · 2004-09-03 14:48 · Score: 2, Informative

For all the "har har i'm so funny lets bash canadians" comments out there, it should be noted that recently the Canadian dollar has actually been going up, rather then doing poorly like a certain someone's currency.

--
Hi there
Re:$100 CN by Curtman · 2004-09-03 15:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Unfortunately though, since the U.S. is our largest trading partner, a low USD means bad news for the CAD. We really need to do more to diversify in the world markets. People screamed bloody murder about how much Cretien's trade missions cost, but with China talking about building so many reactors now is the time we should be pushing Candu. The Americans are going to keep doing things to protect their markets as their dollar slides. That's how they operate. We need to look elsewhere when this happens. Look at this mad cow situation, the whole thing is rediculous yet the ban on Canadian cattle continues. Does anyone really believe it has anything to do with the safety of the American consumer?
Re:$100 CN by Veridium · 2004-09-03 16:07 · Score: 4, Interesting

Nice try... Face the facts, you guys are stuck with us. The second you try to buddy up with the Europeans, GW will proclaim you a rogue state, that you are harboring terrorists, and that you are stockpiling WMD. Within a few months, we will bomb you, occupy you, and proclaim you liberated.

On a serious note(yes, I was joking), you don't realize this yet, but it's the Euro that gives the EU the strength to stand up to us(speaking US centric here). Alot of people don't seem aware of this, but Iraq was a proxy war against the Euro. Saddam began selling oil in Euros back in '99 and because of the strength of the Euro, this proved lucrative for Iraq. Other Oil producing nations were talking about doing it as a result. That would have threatened the dollars standing as the world reserve currency, and thus, Americas ability to live the good life on credit. As long as oil is priced in dollars, everyone needs our dollars and they need our dollars to be valuable, so they work towards making them valuable.

I know this whole thread is somewhat offtopic, but it really sucks that so few people seem to grasp the signifigance of all this. If you wanted to stand up to the US for real, you would need to embrace the EUs currency. The power of the US is rooted in the power of the dollar. Thems the facts. If the world rejected the US dollar as its reserve currency, and oil was suddenly priced in non-dollars, our ability to make war would be cut out from underneath us and our economy would collapse.

Research fiat banking and the history of it and you'll begin to understand why this is.

--
Think for yourself, destroy your television.
Re:$100 CN by ostiguy · 2004-09-04 00:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Do you really believe this crazy talk? At peak, Iraq exported 3.7 million barrels per day, or 1.35 billion barrels. 1.35BB * US$40 a barrel = 54billion dollars for a year. Within the last year, the Japanese were spending as much as 40 billion a MONTH to sell yen and buy US dollars to keep their goods cheaper for US consumers. Asia's foreign exchange reserves totally swamp any one oil producing country's oil revenues.

Furthermore, oil is traded on markets. Getting a commodity to be traded consistently against a different currency is no easy task (resulting in things like the investment premise for gold is predicated on the US dollar). Markets crave liquidity. Saddam era Iraq would have needed a handful of other countrys togo along with him in a game of brinksmanship to try to tweak the oil market enough to change its ways. Not likely. Pricing oil in Euros was a political tactic, but not one that would ever succeed
Re:$100 CN by Veridium · 2004-09-04 05:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

Do you really believe this crazy talk?

What exactly is crazy about it? It's not like I'm saying that a secret world government is working with aliens...

Asia's foreign exchange reserves totally swamp any one oil producing country's oil revenues.

How does this contradict anything I said? Think about this... Why does Asia hold dollars and not Euro's? Why does any industrialized nation choose to hold dollars, despite our debt, despite our deficits, despite the worldwide illwill towards America? Answer: They need oil and oil is priced only in dollars. This is a simple answer, there are other complexities involved with certain trading partners, but by and large, this is the answer.

Furthermore, oil is traded on markets.

Yes, in dollars. Versus other commodities that are traded in a variety of currencies. No dollar, no oil.

Saddam era Iraq would have needed a handful of other countrys togo along with him in a game of brinksmanship to try to tweak the oil market enough to change its ways.

Yes, I never at any point claimed Iraq could do much on its own. What we feared, what we always fear, was the "domino effect". Iran and Venezuela were both toying with the idea of pricing their oil in something other than dollars. While you can no doubt conjure up enough islamo fascist demons to demonstrate why we would target Iran, why did we suddenly villainize Venezuela? You'll see as we go forward, any oil producing country that talks about selling oil in anything but dollars will be quickly villainized. We can't allow it if US hegemony is to continue. Pricing oil in Euros was a political tactic, but not one that would ever succeed

Definetly not with one country doing it, but if a substantial number of oil producing countries were to do it, it would succeed. There is nothing crazy in what I'm saying at all. I think you're thinking I'm saying that if Iraq continued to do that by itself it would have toppled us. I wasn't saying that. If a substantial number of oil producing countries began pricing their oil in Euro's, there would be a large number of countries who would reduce their dollar reserves and increase their Euro reserves. This would greatly impact the value of the dollar and would substantially reduce our ability to sway other nations.

--
Think for yourself, destroy your television.

Re:9 Pages! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 14:38 · Score: 2, Funny

Anyone care to summarise?

sure. i'll give it a shot...

1) buy good counterfeiting equipment
2) ???
3) profit!

Mum always said... by ebsf1 · 2004-09-03 14:38 · Score: 5, Funny

Work hard and you can 'make' lots of money.

YRO? by athakur999 · 2004-09-03 14:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

So this is filed under the YRO category because....?

Or is counterfeiting another one of those things t3h 3v1l g0v3rnm3n7 is trying to take away?

--
"People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999

Re:YRO? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 14:57 · Score: 2, Informative

Because people other than the government can take away your rights. If you were Canadian this guy would be making your dollar worth less, making you unable to spend your $100 bills, and making it more likely that you've been paid with phoney baloney.

I don't dare call it "stealing" because the "copyright violation is not theft" crowd will probably jump all over me. But whatever you want to call it, it's just as bad and it is a violation of your rights.
Re:YRO? by Sheepdot · 2004-09-03 15:05 · Score: 5, Interesting

I once had the idea of making counterfeit US money for tourists travelling to other countries. The idea was that when you ran into someone who mugged you, instead of giving them your wallet you'd just pull out your money clip of fake US twenties, tens, and fives and give it to them.

The sheer joy at landing such a great deal of cash will dissuade them from stealing actual valuables like cameras, credit cards, and checks. After all, when you've just been handed say, $400 in cash, why bother trying to hide the other stuff you just stole?

Besides, those new bills look so fake, they are extremely easy to duplicate by appearance anyway. And a look of grief over losing it is so easy to fake. So that is a legitimate form of counterfeiting, but yet is illegal to do.
Re:YRO? by huchida · 2004-09-03 15:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

But when your counterfeiting, are you really stealing anything? Nobody else is deprived of their money, so what's the big deal? If we don't put our foot down now, the government might even outlaw printers soon, just like they want to do with p2p. :-P

You might get away with it. And it may get passed along a few times. But sooner or later the counterfeit bill will be discovered, probably by a bank, and it will be taken away from the unsuspecting person who thought it was real. You aren't reimbursed for a counterfeit bill that is confiscated.

So yes, it is stealing. Someone's going to be out the money.
Re:YRO? by tylernt · 2004-09-03 16:00 · Score: 2, Informative

Cool idea. One might combine it with Massad Ayoob's technique. "...he always carries a $10 bill wrapped around a matchbook, and tosses that to the mugger first."

...oh, and sorry if the above link offends anyone. It was the only reference to Ayoob and his matchbook that I could find online.

--
DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
Re:YRO? by I'm+Spartacus! · 2004-09-03 16:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

This simply illustrates the lunacy of accepting pieces of paper as money just because the government says they're money. If this guy can create bills that look like government notes and are accepted by everyone the same as government notes, why is his "money" of any less value than the government's "money"?

You can argue that counterfeit money devalues a currency due to the fact that more money is introduced into the marketplace which drives down the value of that currency, but the government does this all the time whenever they fire up the printing presses - and to a much more significant degree than any counterfeiter.

--
"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." -- Ambrose Bierce
Re:YRO? by stephanruby · 2004-09-03 19:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

"I believe the term you're looking for is *"Libertarian" ;) "
No, I don't think so. The overwhelming majority of Libertarians are actually the only ones that understand that the dilution of the money supply is a form of fraud (and really has nothing whatsoever to do with copyright violation).
The majority of the people supporting the other parties either don't understand this point, or they are simply unaware that this form of fraud is being perpetrated by our own government right now.
Re:YRO? by graveyhead · 2004-09-03 22:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

instead of giving them your wallet you'd just pull out your money clip of fake US twenties
OK, so instead of stealing from you, the mugger ends up stealing from someone else when he spends your fake cash. In the end, someone ends up holding the bag and losing out.

If there is any karma in this world, you'll get it as change from that half-calf latte, you insensitive clod!

--
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
Re:YRO? by jamesh · 2004-09-03 22:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

your cries of 'but your honour, I only intended this fake cash to thwart muggers' will be laughed out of court.

Monopoly money might do just as well though :)
Re:YRO? by Dashing+Leech · 2004-09-03 23:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

...but the government does this all the time whenever they fire up the printing presses
Hold on, that's not the same thing. It's not like the government prints the money and just "drops" it into circulation such as giving it to someone. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong regarding the U.S., but all actual new money is created as debt by banks, not by the government. If you borrow money from the bank, they just "make up" the money, i.e., they increase the number in your account but you then owe it to them as real money (cash). The bank doesn't actually have to have that money somewhere that they take and give to you. Yes, they do have to have a certain percentage of all "created" money in reserve.
Actual printed money gets into circulation by being exchanged for old bills. Of course, if this was the only way then the total amount of cash in circulation would never change. I've been trying to find out how any other new bills actually get into circulation other than in exchange, but so far I can't find that information. But as far as I'm aware, a government can't just print money and spend it. I'm obviously no expert on it, but this question on how additional new cash (bills) get into circulation has been bugging me for awhile. In order for it to get into circulation, it can't just be given out without exchanging it for something of value. I'm just not sure what that is or where it is done. (Gold reserve perhaps?)
Re:YRO? by psaltes · 2004-09-04 06:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

The overwhelming majority of Libertarians are actually the only ones that understand that the dilution of the money supply is a form of fraud (and really has nothing whatsoever to do with copyright violation).

Actually, in my experience, libertarians fall in to two groups: (i) they think pot should be legal, and (ii) they are rich enough that they don't feel like paying taxes. All other justifications that either group comes up with are after the fact; just window dressing. Not that those reasons are necessarily bad, but I haven't found libertarians to be a very insightful bunch w.r.t. public policy, economic policy, etc.

Best looking *caught* so far by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 14:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

Of course crimes of this nature are usually closely followed by greed but imagine the possibility of someone only making enough to stay well under the radar. Of course that could be happening right now ;)

The advertisements by Man+of+E · 2004-09-03 14:42 · Score: 5, Interesting

Isn't it great how there are advertisements for inkjet printers on the second, third, fourth pages of the article? Now you know, those things just pay for themselves if you use them right :-)

--
Ceci n'est pas une sig

Re:The advertisements by Will_Malverson · 2004-09-03 14:50 · Score: 5, Funny

Now you know, those things just pay for themselves if you use them right :-)

Not really. Have you checked the price of ink cartridges lately?
Re:The advertisements by Mantorp · 2004-09-03 15:48 · Score: 2, Funny

good thing it's not a child porn story

Summary of article... by cjustus · 2004-09-03 14:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

Just finished reading this in the magazine minutes ago... 20 something small time guy begins creating relatively good counterfeit $100 notes... Produces between 6 and 16 million dollars worth... All while on probation... One interesting idea is that he doesn't pass the money himself, but rather sells it for 20% of it's value to others... The counterfeit money has a street price of around 70% of the face value... Interesting that there is a relatively clear distribution system and market pricing at various levels...

Pretty hard to find stores that take $100 bills these days around here, but the article notes that acceptance is improving, that counterfeit money is quite rare (1 bill per 290 people) ... and that new bill technology is making it harder and harder...

Also points out that the vast majority of people are lazy, don't look at the bills, and that frequently even really bad copies will be accepted from time to time...

--
Platform independent bug tracking software

Re:Summary of article... by dsanfte · 2004-09-03 15:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

One bill per 290 people isn't rare. It's commonplace. Every store here has a UV currency checker. McDonalds employees are getting a crash course in currency examination. At one store where they'd gotten two counterfeit 50s in a single day, they not only stopped taking 100s and 50s, they refused to take the "old" 5s 10s and 20s, and even held the new ones up to the light. We had to wait in line while they did this for every single customer.

Please tell me it's like this in the states, and tell me again how 1 in 290 is rare.

--
occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
Re:Summary of article... by orenmnero · 2004-09-03 17:18 · Score: 4, Informative

Well, according to the Bank of Canada, 36 billion was in circulation in 2001, and 19 cents per person in circulation was counterfeit. Canada has a population of about 32,000,000, so 32,000,000 * 0.19 =~ 6,000,000. 6,000,000 / 36,000,000,000 = 1.67e-4. 40% of this value was accounted for by $100 counterfeits.

Now, the bank says there are about 1.1 billion notes in circulation, or 35 per person. If there is one counterfiet bill per 290 people, that comes to 32,000,000 / 290 = 110,000 counterfiet bills in circulation. So again 110,000 / 1,100,000,000 = 0.0001, or 1 bill per 10,000.

Obviously these places run around distribution rings and some places will see a much higher frequency than others. And one currency, the $20, accounts for 50% of counterfeits. So in comparison, those will be relatively frequent, while the others will be much less so.

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/review/summer04/ch an t.htm

New bills by g-to-the-o-to-the-g · 2004-09-03 14:44 · Score: 5, Informative

This is sorta irrelavent now, because recently the Canadian mint has come out with several new bills which are extremely difficult to counterfeit. THe new $20 bill came out last week I believe, and we've had new $100, $10 and $5 bills for ages now.

--

Hi there

Re:New bills by stubear · 2004-09-03 15:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

"This is sorta irrelavent now, because recently the Canadian mint has come out with several new bills [www.cbc.ca] which are extremely difficult to counterfeit."
That's all fine and well but have they pulled all the old currency out of circulation and if not are they planning on pulling it anytime soon?

Two problems plague countries that face high rates of counterfeit currency. First, the expense of putting new currency into the publics hands is large enough without having to worry about pulling old currency. As long as older bills are around, people can counterfeit them and expect places to accept them should they slip past the meager, if any at all, counterfeit detection most stores employ. Iraq recently went through a currency exchange program and it was utter chaos. The Apocalypse would be far more orderly if they tried something like that in the US.

The second problem is where currency is counterfeited. The US's biggest problem with counterfeit currency isn't in the states, it's overseas and in some countries in South and Central America. Many drug cartels in Columbia have been caught counterfeiting US currency as well. These countries lack the knowledge and/or ability to properly detect counterfeit US currency and it's not until the money is eventually transferred to US banks that it's caught.
Re:New bills by chewy_2000 · 2004-09-03 15:42 · Score: 2, Informative

We changed our notes about a decade ago here in Australia, and as far as I know they are effectively impossible to counterfeit properly. Obviously a smaller economy/population that the US, but I don't recall any significant problem with the changeover. The new notes were introduced gradually, starting from the $5 up.
More details on the security features:
Here.
Re:New bills by mindstrm · 2004-09-03 15:51 · Score: 4, Informative

Yes - they are pulling the old bills out of circulation.

Notice the MAIN problem with counterfitting in Canada, and it was mentioned repeatedly in the article, is that people simply did not usually check.. because we didn't have a real big problem with fake bills previously.

Second.. US currency, outside the US.
As someone who spends US currency and lives in central america.. you are correct, but for the wrong reasons.

People here do indeed know how to detect fake US currency; in fact, they are probably MORE aware of it than most people in the US. US bills are very closely examined here by everyone, and there are TONS of fakes out there. Every bar I know has sample fakes they've caught people with.

Further to that.. if you are passing a fake here, the cops won't be called unless you are literally trying to buy something big with entirely fake money. A merchant finding a note to be fake will say "This is fake" and probably give it back to you, if he feels in the mood. Even the banks; on depositing money into a bank, if they find one US bill to be fake, they'll tell you so, punch a hole in it, and let you keep it. They would actually have to suspect you of trying to scam them before they'll get the authorities involved.

The reason counterfeitting is a much bigger deal in latin america is because, to put it plainly, it's a lot easier to get away with.

Counterfeitting something that is not legal tender isn't all that big a deal.. you won't go to the federal pen unless you counterfeit the local currency.

Drug cartels counterfeit because the distribution methods needed to profit from it are identical to those used for drugs.. they are already in a position to move the stuff without any additional effort or risk.

Crap... by wazerface · 2004-09-03 14:44 · Score: 2, Funny

And now how in the world do we buy anything in Canada without $100 dollar bills?

Re:Crap... by Justin205 · 2004-09-03 14:51 · Score: 3, Funny

We go off and shoot a beaver or two (or moose, if that's more your thing) and then trade them...

"I'll give you two beaver pelts for the 512 MB of RAM."

(I'm a Canadian -- So I can make fun of Canada. :P)

--
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."

US currency Legal Tender by SuperBanana · 2004-09-03 14:45 · Score: 4, Informative

businesses to stop accepting $100CDN bills, thus affecting literally millions of people

I was under the impression that doing so at least in the US was illegal, until I actually (gasp!) googled it to make sure I was.

First link was to the US Treasury Department's FAQ on just that subject: Legal Tender Status.

I always thought it was illegal to refuse currency, but that nobody enforced it. Learn something every day. Honestly- it should be illegal for businesses to refuse currency; I don't care about the inconvenience of them having to change a $50 or $100 bill; if it's all I've got and I need gas, food, or lodging, well, they should have to accept it. It's very easy for it to be an issue of safety, and absurd to have money in your pocket in the industrialized world and not be able to use it. Nevermind that it should not be compulsory to use plastic.

--
Please help metamoderate.

Re:US currency Legal Tender by paulthomas · 2004-09-03 15:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

What if they don't trust that the money has any value?
Re:US currency Legal Tender by RazzleFrog · 2004-09-03 15:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why should it be illegal? I don't agree with any law that says that I must be forced to sell to you (which is essentially what you are saying). It is my business and my choice whether I let you pay for a $2 candy bar with a $100 bill. Now if I chose to not sell to you because of race, color or creed then you might have a case.
Re:US currency Legal Tender by InfiniteWisdom · 2004-09-03 15:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

If $50 or $100 is all you've got then you head over to an ATM and get some twenties. You can find those easily in the industralized world, right? No reason for the guy behind the register in the convenience store to have to assume the added risk of having hundreds of dollars in the till. You're not the only one for which it can be an issue of safety, you know?
Re:US currency Legal Tender by Malc · 2004-09-03 15:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

As a business man, why should I do business with you if I don't want to? Maybe I'm not so desparate or greedy that I need your money. Don't be so self-centred!
Re:US currency Legal Tender by One+Childish+N00b · 2004-09-03 15:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

Honestly- it should be illegal for businesses to refuse currency; I don't care about the inconvenience of them having to change a $50 or $100 bill; if it's all I've got and I need gas, food, or lodging, well, they should have to accept it

Nonsense. If you come up to me in the street and wave money in my face, I don't have to take it. Same goes for the guy working behind the counter in the average store. Most people are willing to change them up anyway, but the few that don't are perfectly within their rights to do so and it's a stupid thing to take away. You didn't want the inconvenience of carrying around your change all day when you left the house in the morning, the guy behind the counter doesn't want the inconvenience of having to change your $100 bill so you can pay for your Happy Meal. What makes your convenience more important than what's convenient to the guy behind the counter?

If you've got a genuine reason and the guy's just being a jackass, you can go to the next store down or the store across the street - you shouldn't start spouting off about how it should be illegal for them to refuse currency. They can do whatever they want provided they're not ripping you off in any way, and that's the way it should stay - and do we really want another reason for people to start dancing around screaming 'lawsuit! lawsuit!'?

--
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
Re:US currency Legal Tender by failedlogic · 2004-09-03 15:46 · Score: 2, Informative

There's a problem with that too. Some bank machines give $50 bills when you widthdraw in $100 denominations.

The other day, for instance, I widthdrew $100. I needed to buy some clothes and food. The bank machine gave me two $50. All the banks were closed so I couldn't exhange for smaller currency then.

Plus, it was the last of my money until payday. I was lucky to find a retailer to accept them. I might have been screwed had they been fake. I know that possessing a fake is a criminal act, but had I had a "really" good fake from a bank machine that I didn't know about, legally I could have been in trouble too.

BTW -- Is a usually foolproof method of finding fakes to test to see if they have a raised surface in the assigned areas (from Intaglios)... or are most counterfitters able to reproduce that as well? It would seem this is the hardest and most costly to reproduce.
Re:US currency Legal Tender by mindstrm · 2004-09-03 15:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

It shoudln't be.. a business should be free to accept or refuse whatever terms of barter they like.

Why should any merchant have to accept anything? You have no contract with them; you are free to take your business elsewhere. They don't OWE you anything... that's the whole point. If the terms of the deal aren't favorable.. either party can refuse. If you don't like it, you can take your business to someone else who has more favorable ways of doing business. If your opinion is shared by many, then the merchant who serves you better will do well.

Legal tender counts towards paying off debts.. that's it. You cannot refuse to take payment of money owed to you if it's in the legal tender, and the exact amount. If you do, a court won't be sympathetic.

I think it should be compulsory for utilities to accept cash for payment of bills.. but that should be handled as a regulation on utilities, and not on the use of currency itself.
Re:US currency Legal Tender by InfiniteWisdom · 2004-09-03 16:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

You do have a point there.

In India (where I grew up) a 100 rupee note is equivalent to a $20 bill here, in terms of the frequency of use not exchange value. i.e. you could expect to hand over a Rs.100 note and get change back from a bagful of groceries the way you would with a $20 here.

So most ATMs I saw would return at least Rs. 500 in 100s and the rest in 500s. Pretty smart and convenent. I don't know if any of the ATMs here do that because I rarely withdraw more than $40 or $60 :)
Re:US currency Legal Tender by mindstrm · 2004-09-03 16:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

US hospitals, I believe, cannot refuse reasonable emergency treatment based on the ability to pay. The same goes for most 1st world hospitals, I believe.

Healthcare, generally, is separately regulated.. a society sets up the standards by which they want that care delivered, and that usually always involves some level of charity. It's not just a for-profit business, but a necessary element of our societies. Exactly how much care and of what quality will vary from place to place...

but if you have a heart attack, I don't think there is a hospital on earth that won't try to give you at least a jumpstart.
Re:US currency Legal Tender by uberdave · 2004-09-03 16:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Next time, withdraw $80 or $120. Problem solved.

--
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
Re:US currency Legal Tender by RazzleFrog · 2004-09-04 00:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

So you're saying you'll take the black guy's $100 bill because you might get sued, but you won't take the white guy's b/c he doesn't have a leg to stand on?

No. That is discriminating based on color. Didn't I just say that was wrong?

No one should be forced to make a sale. I am not sure how you can argue against that. Forget about the currency for a second. Why should I ever be forced to sell something when I don't want to?

And you obviously don't realize that the government paying 75% on counterfeit bills means you and I will actually be paying for counterfeit bills. That is tax payer money we are talking about. And what would be the incentive to not abuse the system? If I know that I will get $75 on a $100 counterfeit I can just tell the person passing it that I will take it at $50 and make $25 off of taxpayers.

There are plenty of ways to detect counterfeit bills these days. And after working for a few years in a bank I can tell you that you can tell the difference just by the feel with enough practice.

Printing for profit by My_Dirty_Facist_Ass · 2004-09-03 14:48 · Score: 2, Funny

This is interesting; I wonder (purely out of curiosity I assure you) which nation's currency is the easiest to counterfeit (that is, requires the least effort). If one could make a list of the easiest currencies to forge and then print billions of those monies well, regardless of the exchange rates, that must be worth some american dollars. Make sure that the american dollars you get back are more than what you put into the counterfeiting machinery and materials in the first place and you've got a bone fide business! Capitalism rules!

Or, if you happen to have a pining for Mongolia, print out those Togrogs like nothing else and live like a khan in the beautiful ancestral home of the Khan!

Khaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!

Re:Printing for profit by kfg · 2004-09-03 16:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

. . .which nation's currency is the easiest to counterfeit. . .

Smaller countries typically have their money minted privately. It might come as a surprise to some that the Franklin Mint actually is a mint.

As such every country has access to fairly sophisticated anti-counterfeit technology. Some might be easier to fake than others, but none of them are easy. In some respects it's far more important in a smaller economy (especially if it's a poor one) to avoid massive counterfeiting than in a larger one. It's the sort of thing that can topple governments overnight.

I suppose the best you can do is to move to a place where you are least likely to get caught passing funny money.

And yes, since you bring it up, I do have a pining for Mongolia. I could probably live there for some months on what I've got in my pockets right now, it's the cost of getting there that proves the fly in the yak butter.

Of course there's also the fact that I don't like yak butter and Mongolia is one of the few places in Asia where a rice eater like myself is at a disadvantage.

Lovely looking place though, and you can download togrog jpegs on the internet. I suspect that the average yak herder is fairly sophisticated about checking his money though. Most people for whom money is a real scarcity (as opposed to the modern western concept of "poor") are.

KFG

Huh? by sirReal.83. · 2004-09-03 14:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Highest-quality counterfeit currency ever detected"

Is that anything like "America's greatest solved mysteries" ?

The technology in a Canadian banknote rivals that by t0qer · 2004-09-03 14:50 · Score: 4, Funny

The technology in a Canadian banknote rivals that of cellphones and other gadgets it shares pockets and purses with, putting the machinery and technical skill needed to exactly reproduce anti-counterfeit features beyond the reach of those who would thwart them.

So how long before we see Canadian dollars running BSD? Will a beowulf cluster make my money work for me?

obligatory canada currency joke by Guano_Jim · 2004-09-03 14:57 · Score: 4, Funny

This guy is clearly a loonie.

--
3D Printing Tips and Tricks at Zheng3.com

Re:The technology in a Canadian banknote rivals th by kfg · 2004-09-03 15:00 · Score: 2, Funny

I hear tell they're going to ban P2P money sharing.

KFG

"affecting literally millions of people." by Malc · 2004-09-03 15:08 · Score: 2, Informative

... seems like a bit of a sensational exageration. The $100 is hardly missed. I've only had a small handful over the years. Even $50s aren't that widespread. I see those a few times a month when I get larger quantities from the bank, but $20s are still the most common for even withdrawals of several hundred dollars. Maybe I bank in the wrong place.

Re:"affecting literally millions of people." by really? · 2004-09-03 15:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Or maybe you're not spending enough? :-)

The other day I paid for my insurance with a 1.000 dollar bill - yes, one thousand Canadian dollars bill.

You should have seen the lady's face. Very funny, actually, as she had seen me put one bill on the counter while she was still filling in some stuff. The insurance came to just under 1000, so she was sitting there talking to my father and waiting for me to put more bills on the counter. First time for her, or anyone in that office, to see 1.000 bills.

--

"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
Re:"affecting literally millions of people." by mindstrm · 2004-09-03 16:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Funny story that.

Seriously, though.. how many $1000 bills have you seen?

How many $100 or even $50 bills do you see on a daily basis coming out of people's wallets? (or even flashed from within one?)

Canada has become so hooked on Interac that cash is almost a nono.. I was back home (B.C.) on Vacation... and had probably $300 in my wallet.. and most people were like "Wow you carry too much money"... $300, and I'm an anomaly.
Typically, I have double that in my pocket.

I have never actually seen a real life $1000 bill in Canada.. though I know they exist (though I believe they stopped minting them a few years ago). I've heard a few stories about them.. like about four, including yours.

Canadians are getting scared of cash.

Looooong article, but worth the read by MoralHazard · 2004-09-03 15:10 · Score: 5, Insightful

I highly recommend RTFAing. It's a good story, and lots of juicy techy details.

The biggest problem, it seems to me, is that whatever technical features they introduce to protect banknotes, it doesn't do a damn bit of good unless every high-school dropout grocery clerk can use those features effectively to identify bad notes. You could have forty kinds of anti-counterfeiting devices on a note, but unless the public can easily and quickly use those features, they aren't going to help.

This got me started thinking on using crypto to protect banknotes--try embedding an RFID-type device into every banknote, with a simple chip that can perform a SHA-1 signing back-ending the RFID mechanism. An RF device sends a random number to the bill, which receives that number and SHA-1 signs it, and returns the signature. If you put the same private key into all of the bills, you could build relatively simple, hand-held currency scanners that all have the public key and can verify that the bill is real.

This has its problems:
1) Can we actually build a chip/RF mechanism small enough and robust enough to be used in paper currency?
2) I can imagine this kind of mechanism adding a lot of expense to the note manufacturing process.
3) In order to use this, you'd have to distribute gazillions of RF scanners to the point-of-sale. Expensive, and not fast to get that kind of gadget penetration.
4) Tamper-resistence: you have to build the SHA-1 chips so that they can't be broken open. This is similar to the MS Trusted Computing issue--is it possible to store a key in a physical device such that the key cannot be extracted physically?

That last problem is the worst--it's a lot like the DVD CSS encryption scheme problem. It works find until ONE INSTANCE of the private key gets broken, and then everybody has the key to every single banknote in circulation. And then the whole thing is kaput, money down the drain (literally). So it would be awfully important to solve the tamper-proofing issue, before you went ahead with this idea.

Shit, I gotta get a girlfriend--posting coherent ideas to Slashdot at 11 on a Friday night is pretty busted.

Re:Looooong article, but worth the read by chris_sawtell · 2004-09-03 20:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

Yup, the story _is_ gripping, but at the same time both the parent posting and the story show how current thinking about paper money is fatally flawed.

The fix is to have EFT-POS used widely, and to have a much less counterfeitable currency for the odd transaction which still needs it. Here in little old NZ almost every business doing legitimate cash sales has a terminal. The 'paper' money is printed on a clear plastic film, with the registration of the printing on the two sides of the plastic being perfect. There are two 'holes' in the printing where you can check it. Certainly it's quite impossible to replicate it using a computer and an ink-jet printer. For a central bank to design a currency so that a kid with a printer worth a few hundred bucks can replicate it so simply is just plain lunacy on the part of the central bank. Leaves the country open to economic sabotage by any bunch of wealthy neredowells. Think of the social chaos if Al-Qaeda dropped a few tons of forged banknotes on any Western city. The cash economy would grind to a halt in a day or two.

Re:More important.... by MoralHazard · 2004-09-03 15:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

Actually, the first time I was introduced to Canadian money (on a trip to Seattle to see my uncle), my good-ol' Unc confused me by referring to Canadian quarters as "funny money" and implied that there was something sneaky about the little buggers. Which there was--imagine my surprise when I came home to LA a week later, hit the arcade, and discovered that I had about $4.00 worth of CN quarters.

That's a lot of rounds of Street Fighter that I missed out on!

But seriously, I think that any American pretension toward implying that foreign currency is fake or "confederate" is probably just joking. I have a hard time imagining that anyone could have their history/poli.sci. that fucked up.

JSG Boggs by vena · 2004-09-03 15:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

if you want to talk about art, let's talk about JSG Boggs. this man DRAWS the notes BY HAND, and has been doing it since 1984. his art is not only his physical artistic ability in recreating the bills in great detail (with his little added puns), but in creating social networks around the passing of his bills. he tells people they're not real bills and gives them the choice of accepting his art in return for goods and services, or to accept real money.

er... filed under "Your Rights Online" ? by bani · 2004-09-03 15:18 · Score: 4, Funny

what, /. editors believe counterfeiting is a constitutional right or something?

It could be worse, people here take $200 bills by stretch0611 · 2004-09-03 15:19 · Score: 3, Funny

Some idiot actually accepted a $200 bill with GW Bush on the front. Its hard to beat that. Here is the link to that article.

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Re:More important.... by JamesKPolk · 2004-09-03 15:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Learn the English langauge. His "confederates" were his partners in crime.

Why 100CDN denominations? by rampant+mac · 2004-09-03 15:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been talking about this with my coworkers over the last couple of days... Why do counterfeiters ALWAYS pick huge denominations? I understand there is a "cost" involved when producing fake money; I understand they all want to get rich quick. What if a counterfeiter stuck with small denominations? Who here (referencing anyone who handles money on a regular basis) gives $1s, $5s, or $10s a second glance? Usually cashiers will shove those bills into the drawer without thinking twice.

Any thoughts?

--
I like big butts and I cannot lie.

Re:More important.... by whorfin · 2004-09-03 15:32 · Score: 2, Informative

I don't know what's scarier, the person who posted this, or the people who modded it "Insightful". Confederates Defined Perhaps the poster is from Quebec?

--
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!

Re: Sig by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-03 15:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

And on March 20, 2003, an American president set in motion a war that has murdered 11000 Iraqis.

Re:More important.... by huchida · 2004-09-03 15:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

Canadian money is not called "confederates" - actually, that's quite offensive and really does show how the author either doesn't know anything about the world outside American boarders or just assumes his culture applies everywhere. Typical.

No, you're mistaken, and I take offense at your offense. His "confederates" are his accomplices. I have never heard of Canadian money, or any currency for that matter called a "confederate." Except perhaps the South's dollar during the Civil War.

Oh, and the author's "American Boarders" are the nice couple from Wisconsin he's renting the second bedroom to. But you're right in that they have a narrow view of the world.

This guy is my cousin! by B5_geek · 2004-09-03 15:42 · Score: 5, Interesting

Wes has never been after more then a get-rich-quick kind of guy. Every type of scam/pyramid scheme out there he has tried at least once.

He has always worked very hard at not working. Anything to make an easy buck.

He has also been arrested for growing pot, (several million dollars worth IIRC).

This guy is not worthy of any praise or adoration. We (the family) strongly suspect that he was a scape goat for organized crime in Toronto. He is NOT the evil mastermind that the media is making him out to be.

I know his MO. He will be back in jail again.

--
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)

Re:I'm not worried, I don't use cash by Frankie70 · 2004-09-03 15:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm surprised how the article doesn't mention the slow move we are making to a cashless society, which will make problems of counterfeit currency irrelevant

Yup, credit fraud is the crime du jour.

Simple, time spend spending them by SmallFurryCreature · 2004-09-03 16:03 · Score: 4, Informative

Say you got a big stack of 10.000 notes. Now you want to convert them to real money. There are a numbed of ways to do it but the simplest is either selling the stack to someone else for real money who will then spend the fake or spend the fakes yourselve.

The way to do it is to buy goods with fake money and get real goods and real change. You can then return or resale the goods for more real money.

So why not $1 dollar bills? What exactly would that buy you? 1 Mars bar? That would only work if you had a very low initial investment to counterfeit and were just using it to take care of living expenses. Just the small problem then that there would be a steady stream of counterfits near your house with your finger prints on it.

You can buy more expensive goods with $1 dollar bills but people get suspiscious when you pay for a new car with a pallet of cash.

Counterfit money is the balance between being low enough in value to be easily accepted and high enough in value to be worthwhile spending.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:

You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

usually... by circletimessquare · 2004-09-03 16:03 · Score: 4, Funny

i prefer cash rather than gifts from my relatives on birthdays/ christmas

you have a good reason to prefer gifts i think

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

Re:I'm not worried, I don't use cash by Kiryat+Malachi · 2004-09-03 16:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

My corner store won't.

The other corner store will only accept electronic transactions if I'm buying at least $10 worth of goods, which kinda makes it useless for a quick drink after a bike ride.

And it all depends on what kind of cashless society - if we move to a entirely debit/credit card based society, where all purchases are verified by a remote server, there's no counterfeiting, but an e-cash system could have counterfeit problems (depending on implementation).

Also, we will never actually get rid of untraceable cash (of some variety), because that would prevent politicians from being bribed anonymously.

--

---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
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US $100 bills aren't that hard to counterfeit. by multiplexo · 2004-09-03 16:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

When I lived in Germany in 1998-99 the only place you could exchange $100 bills was a bank or currency exchange, and they required that you produce positive ID in the form of a passport or German ID card before they would accept the bill. This was because the US bills were easily counterfeited and apparently several hundred million dollars worth of them had been run off by Iran and North Korea.

I wonder how hard it would be to just use OCR to track money these days. You could put scanners into each ATM that would scan bills as they were dispensed and store the serial numbers, a trivial bit of OCR. You could also have banks install scanners at each teller's station when they dispense the cash (many of Washington Mutual's new branches have teller stations that are like ATMs, you make your withdrawal and the teller never handles the cash, it is dispensed from a slot. By tracking serial numbers you could see how your currency is flowing. Additionally you could spot counterfeiting, if bill serial number 1234567890 is simultaneously used in several locations and scanned you could assume that it was counterfeited. No fancy RFID's required, just modifications to bill dispensing machines in banks and other financial institutions which could easily and quietly be mandated by the Department of the Treasury.

--
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.

Re:US $100 bills aren't that hard to counterfeit. by tk2x · 2004-09-03 17:08 · Score: 2, Informative

There's already an effort to do that, albeit not automated. Check out http://www.wheresgeorge.com/.

Re:9 Pages! by Fizzog · 2004-09-03 16:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

>> 1) buy good counterfeiting equipment
>> 2) ???
>> 3) profit!

You missed:

4) Go to Prison

Has anyone noticed? by BCW2 · 2004-09-03 16:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

All the criminals you hear about are dumb? They all do something stupid to get caught. The smart ones are the ones you'll never hear about. Maybe their crime will get coverage but you'll never hear the name.

I'm sure there are some smart one out there, but I've never heard of them.

--
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.

We're on Yellow Alert now, so use the yellow money by billstewart · 2004-09-03 17:24 · Score: 2, Funny

The US Federal Reserve bank started printing yellow notes in time that we could use them for the Yellow Alert. Once we go into Orange Alert, they'll probably have an orange series (or if the Feds ever stop letting the Department of Homeland Security call us chicken, we could go back to using greenbacks...)

--

Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks

So make C$500s, eh? by billstewart · 2004-09-03 17:26 · Score: 2, Informative

The US no longer uses bills over $100 in general circulation, mainly because the Feds want to harass anybody engaged in cash businesses, like drug dealing and tax evasion, and force them into electronic banking systems where they're easier to detect. So a Canadian $500 bill is worth quite a bit more than a US $100 bill.

--

Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks

Re:I'm not worried, I don't use cash by innocent_white_lamb · 2004-09-03 17:42 · Score: 2, Informative

This is not the same as a Visa or MC Debit card.. where Visa or MC is taking a chunk out of the merchant.

The merchant's bank takes a chunk out of the merchant instead. Usually 35 cents per Interac transaction. Visa/MC charge a percentage of the amount of the purchase, usually between 1% and 4%. Interac fees are usually a flat 35 cents, regardless of wheter you're purchasing an 80 cent chocolate or a $50,000 boat.

--
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!

If you actually read past the first paragraph, by dapic · 2004-09-03 17:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

You'd see this:

There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services.

He was arrested TWICE for counterfit?? by ttroutma · 2004-09-03 17:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

Wait a minute here, he was arrested and paid someone to do his community service. Arrested AGAIN for counterfiting, was let go with a slap on the wrist. Kept getting bigger and better at it and was finally caught a third time? Seems to me that the first two offenses needed time in the slammer. The social engineering he did was clever, I liked that part, but it sounds to me like Canadian law is just way too complacent.

If it is done on sufficient scale by Sycraft-fu · 2004-09-03 18:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's ALWAYS detected. The thing is money has serial numbers and those are tracked. So, even if you print counterfit bills that are 100% identicle to real ones (nearly impossible) you'll either being coliding with existing serial numbers, or using ones that aren't valid. This'll get notied if you do it in any sort of reasonable scale.

It's the same thing as why there are no usable keygens for MMORPGs. It's not that the crackers can't reverse the algoithm for the keys, that's trivial. Problem is any key you generate will either be one that hasn't yet been issued, and therefore is invalid on the servers (most likely), or one that has been issued, and thus can't be used again.

But that infringes on their right by Sycraft-fu · 2004-09-03 18:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

To deny you service. Bussinesses have a right to deny anyone service. The only time it can really get them in trouble is if they are categorically and automatically refusing service (like refusing to serve any blacks). However they can toss you from the store if they don't like you.

Well, cash is just an extension of that, they have a right to refuse to take your money and do bussiness with you.

Well the real problem is by Sycraft-fu · 2004-09-03 18:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

That even really smart people make mistakes. You miscalculate or slip up. When you are doing that in a criminal activity, usually one is all it takes. I mean what may seem dumb and obvious to you is not that way to another.

As a somewhat related example I wrote a program that worked almost, but not completely, right for a CS assignment. It frustrated me to hell and I kept adding more and more debug code, all of it reading that the program was working fine. I got fed up and called a friend and he came over to hang out. He asked to see the code that was a problem, and instantly (like hadn't even sat down) noticed the problematic bit.

This same sort of things can, and does, apply to planning and execution of a crime. You are smart and plan for everthing, but there is something you are just not aware of. Or you execute what you think is perfect but really isn't.

Also the more you do it, the more likely it is you slip up. I'm willing to bet many smart peopel could plan and execute one perfect crime if they tried. However if they keep doing it, there is more and more likelyhood they get found out.

Finally, smart people don't need to turn to crime so much. They have marketable skills that will make them a good living. They also have the logical ability to understand the likelyhood of getting caught and the consequences. The stupid can't get the good jobs (unless they go management :)), and often fool themselves into thinking they are smart enough to beat the system.

Re:MUCH Stiffer Penalties Needed! by MachDelta · 2004-09-03 20:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

Prison is NOT about reform. It's about punishment and deterrent. Period.

See, this is EXACTLY where Republican USA and Liberal Canada differ. In Canada, the penal system is not about ridding the world of murders and rapists, or locking people away forever. Yes, it is a punishment and a deterrent, but it's those things with the hope - nay, expectation - of reform. I think you'll find Canadians (and many other parts of the world for that matter) will agree that making a productive member of society out of a troublemaker is far better than just locking them away forever. If it's ever at all nessecary to remove someone from the general populace, it should be done with the expectation that they can be rehabilitated and reintroduced, safely, back into the public. Sure, in some extreme cases, this process might take a very long time if it ever happens at all, but the possibility is almost always there. Maybe its something in the water, but generally, ours is a society that believes in second chances. How can you justify seizing ultimate power over someone elses life? Just because a book or a rule somewhere says you can? If murder is really one of the ultimate sins against society, what makes it acceptable for the same society to turn around and weild it as a weapon or tool? Surely there are alternate methods that could be persued, rather than just exterminating troublesome members of society.

Not that i'm a Liberal Canadian myself, mind you. I'm actually more right-wing than anything (which is still tame by American standards), but I just wanted to offer an alternative viewpoint. I'd actually agree with you on the case that this guy probably should have been given more jailtime. I don't think that gives anyone the right to use him as a slave though. But I guess thats just the difference between you and me, and where we live. Me, I kind of like Canada, even if it can be a little soft at times.

Cheers, eh?

Plastic notes by dcam · 2004-09-04 01:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

In Australia the notes are plastic. You can't just print something off an inkjet.

--
meh

Re:I AGREE by Veridium · 2004-09-04 06:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

I love your sarcasm, but kneejerk's like him won't see your point. The sad thing is, I'm not even left. There was a time in this country when being politically right meant something about your political principles of A) Limited government B) fiscal responsibility C) fostering rugged independence among individuals.

But thanks to snap happy knee jerk republican drones like that, it simply means anyone who does not believe everything the current administration says. It's a disgrace to everything real conservatives have worked for for the past 50 years.

--
Think for yourself, destroy your television.

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