Motorola Hacker Rewards Program

Nuclear Elephant writes "Pen Computing Magazine recently ran an article about the Motorola v710, which has been crippled by Verizon. A hacking contest is now underway, and the pot is steadily growing. The first hacker to provide a hack (or instructions) to enable OBEX and OPP features on the handset before Jan 1 wins the pot. See the official site for more information." We mentioned this phone a few days ago.

Comments

Does the prize include

[Anonymous Coward]

Lawyers fees for the DMCA lawsuit from Verizon?

Re:Does the prize include

[SQLz]

Is this covered by the DMCA though?

Re:Does the prize include

[erick99]

I worked for one of the top three cell phone companies from April until August of this year (I resigned on Aug 12th). You would not believe this industry from the inside. First they shoot themselves in the foot by selling phones for a penny that costs them several hundred dollars. Then, they try to get it back by selling all sorts of "extras." The billing errors alone probably make up some of the lost profit. I did not see a single billing error on any of my screens that were in favor of a customer. My own bill for my two boys were off by $150/month for three months in the carriers favor. The pressure to get new "activations" is enormous. You are directed to say almost anything to get a new activation and then they deal with the lies on the backend. If you choose not to lie, as I did, they make your life almost unbearable. I did make a good income and I could have continued. But, I got so that I didn't like myself much anymore.

Cheers,

Erick

Re:Does the prize include

[Wordsmith]

isn't everything?

Re:Does the prize include

[Monkelectric]

Yep. I interviewed at qualcomm for a *1 MONTH TEMP POSTITION* testing BREW apps. I had a few friends who worked there... Long story short, the interviewer asks me "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" You have to imagine at this time I'm already sick of these assholes, they've been asking me the dumbest questions, and they've made me come out for an interview (1 month temp position=PHONE INTERVIEW). So I decide to blow the interview and say, "Not working for you for 4 years and 11 months." :-D

Re:Does the prize include

[Frosty Piss]

First, while your post may be "interesting", it is in fact "offtopic". But really, how can you possibly have any insight at all into the cell industry from any other position except low-level grunt, when you say you only worked there for no more than 5 months?

You say:

First they shoot themselves in the foot by selling phones for a penny that costs them several hundred dollars. Then, they try to get it back by selling all sorts of "extras."

Is this supposed to be a "secret"? It's not. Not only is it common knowledge that the phone itself is a "loss-leader", the companies themselves will tell you so. And think about it: when new technology in handsets is evolving at the rate it is, why would you want to pay the actual cost of the phone? If you want to, OK, but I sure don't want to pay actual cost for something that will be dated next month.

The billing errors alone probably make up some of the lost profit. I did not see a single billing error on any of my screens that were in favor of a customer.

And...

The pressure to get new "activations" is enormous. You are directed to say almost anything to get a new activation and then they deal with the lies on the backend.

Billing issues not exclusive to the cell phone industry, when you see one on your bill, you call 'em up and get it straightened out. What's your point? But what it actually seems like is that you worked customer non-service sweatshop-department (boiler room), so how does this give you great insight as to how the cell phone industry works as a whole?

Re:Does the prize include

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't everything (covered by the DMCA)?

It even seems to have the national media afraid to reverse-engineer statements from the country's so-called leadership in order to search for the truth.

Re:Does the prize include

[mrscorpio]

You have to realize that the last thing a customer with a billing error in their favor is going to do is call the cellphone company. Judging the quality of a product or service from a large corporation based on your experiences as a customer service representative is usually very narrow-minded, because you only get to hear about the bad experiences and not the good.

I'm not defending the company here, because for all I know they ARE scam artists, but I'm just pointing out that I've found the cynicism of my co-workers (and sometimes mine, as a customer service rep in various industries for 4 years) is to generally be exaggerated or even at times unwarranted.

Re:Does the prize include

[phazethru]

I haven't had much trouble with Verizon. The worst part of my whole experience is their automated billing, which sometimes double bills, and (very rarely) forgets to bill and I get late fees. Though both are fixed with a quick call to customer service.

Re:Does the prize include

[Optikal]

With Nextel, you at least have a certain degree of freedom. For one, you're able to update your phone's firmware from home - using the $25 data cable and iDENupdate, of course.

Then again, I did have to go through a somewhat shady (read: third-party, most likely frowned upon apps) process in order to put a custom graphic and a few ringtones on my handset. I don't agree with charging $2 for a 130x130 piece of generic GIF clip-art or 30 second MIDI.

As a signing bonus, I lucked out with a cluless trainee who gave me the 2 year contract price for the handset while only signing up for a 1 year contract. I see it as my compensation for having to sit through a 45 minute procedure that should have only taken 15.

Re:Does the prize include

[Nuclear Elephant]

This really has nothing to do with the DMCA. Hacking the v710 to enable OBEX and OPP hasn't got anything to do with breaking copy protection - all it involves is enabling some features on a piece of hardware that you own. If the phone were being cracked so that pirated BREW apps would run, that would be one thing. The only thing being copied here are the user's own personal files to which they own the copyright...which is irrelevant to the DMCA.

Re:Does the prize include

[Nuclear Elephant]

And if you think about it, Verizon's TOC is really more against the DMCA than this as they've circumvented the rightful owners of copyright from being able to transfer their works without being intercepted by their network.

Re:Does the prize include

[jrockway]

I have nothing bad to say about US cellular. Sure every other person on earth has the same exact phone as me, but the monthly rate is good. So is their service; they called me about 2 weeks after i bought the plan to see if I had any questions. That was pretty thoughtful (a waste of my time, but I have to give them credit for caring). Also the sales droid there was very honest about everything, and even advised me that some of the competitors had better plans.

All in all, a very nice bunch of people to deal with; and the service is fine (in downtown chicago where I live everyone has great service, though).

Re:Does the prize include

[wolrahnaes]

I've been liking T-Mo.

The quality is great, the data plan is cheap, and the one time I called a tech they helped me out quickly, knowing exactly how to make my bluetooth connection do exactly what I wanted it to.

Re:Does the prize include

[dave420]

You're branding the entire industry as bad guys, when this is clearly not the case. I work at a cellphone reseller, a business specialist that provides cellphones for entire companies. The phones are sold very cheaply (often given away), as the real money is in the line rental. Your monthly fee more than makes up for the handset after a few months, and the network makes lots more money from charging cross-network "tax", when calls originating off their network are routed across it. Saying they "shoot themselves in the foot" is pretty silly, as you wouldn't want a phone if you had to pay full trade price on it. It's not "lost profit", but ofsetted against future payments by you, the client.

If you have to lie to make sales of phones, the place you work at has shitty ethics. Honesty works, even with mobile phones. If you explain to the client exactly what they have to pay, and then fight for them over any billing errors (which do err on the side of caution for the network, by the way), you can make many clients and keep even more.

Re:Does the prize include

[BinxBolling]

I can tell you that it isn't AT&T wireless.

Mainly I hate them because they keep sending me text message advertisements to get me to use various services like internet access and text messages for which they levy extra charges under my plan.

The ads include a note providing a URL that you can supposedly go to to make the messages stop. I've gone to that page and filled out the form twice. The messages keep coming.

It was pretty bad that they sent me this crap the first time, but if they'd actually stopped sending after I opted out once, I might have stuck with them out of laziness and inertia. No chance of that, now.

My contract with them ends next month, at which point I'll be moving on. I'm not sure where, yet. I'd been leaning towards Verizon, but from the sound of this article, they're just as prone to customer disservice as AT&T, so I'll have to keep looking.

Re:Does the prize include

[Anml4ixoye]

My wife an I were in a Cingular store yesterday at they said they just bought out AT&T. Interesting.

Re:Does the prize include

[gnuadam]

Good to know there is still business ethics.

But tell me. At what point does "err on the side of caution" become fraud? Billing fairly does not include billing customers for services they didn't ask for and don't use, even to "err on the side of caution." You may be ethical, but perhaps the standards of your industry have blinded you ...

omg omg omg

[Anonymous Coward]

I went out with a girl last night.

Re:omg omg omg

[GNAA Goat-See]

Me too. We watched Labyrinth starring David Bowie, and ended up making out on her bed. Pity I had to go :(

Re:omg omg omg

[Anonymous Coward]

Watching movies with your mom doesn't count you faggot.

Re:omg omg omg

[Anonymous Coward]

My mother is dead, you insensitive clod.

Re:omg omg omg

[Anonymous Coward]

She's a *BSD developer then? Quick jizzing over her corpse and get a life you faggot fag homo.

Re:omg omg omg

[Anonymous Coward]

How much does your girl weigh? (give answer in metric tons, please.)

Re:omg omg omg

[Anonymous Coward]

4.53592 * 10^(-2) Metric Lbs.

The pot is steadily growing

[Anonymous Coward]

We long for the harvest.

GNAA FP

[Anonymous Coward]

Gay nigger first post fuckers.

Separate betting pool established

[Anonymous Coward]

$20 to enter. Whoever guesses closest to the actual date and time the DMCA is invoked to stop this, wins it all!

Verizon?

[tommyboyprime]

OK it's a nifty phone with all the features enabled, but $519 who the hell needs it?

Re:Verizon?

[Nogami_Saeko]

Well, I'm looking at shelling-out $1k for a Motorolla MPx when it's released (assuming it gets more good reviews). Already have a SE P800 which was just under $1k when it was released. Expensive? Sure, but it's cheaper than buying myself a laptop which would gather dust most of the time except when I'm not at home or in the office.

I have little to no use for a laptop, but I use my P800 all the time, for everything from reading acrobat files, to editing word documents, chatting on MSN/ICQ, taking photos, etc. I can pop the memory card out and use it with a USB reader at home or at work to move files back and forth - I've even used it as a speakerphone at a business meeting.

So yes, there are reasons to buy an expensive phone - especially when it's more computer than phone.

All that said, I'd never buy a crippled phone such as Verizon is promoting, and since I'm a big fan of GSM technology, I'd also never buy a CDMA phone.

N.

Re:Verizon?

[Anonymous Coward]

when you but the Motorolla... ... will you trade me your phone for a GMail invite?

Re:Verizon?

[UranusReallyHertz]

Uh, isn't CDMA the superior technology?

Re:Verizon?

[ottothecow]

short answer: no

Partially due to the companies that support it, its featureset, and its lack of worldwide acceptance

(verizon sucks)

Re:Verizon?

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

CDMA is a superior technology over GSM and TDMA.

Because of politics and stupidity, you can't discount CDMA's technological merit.

Between GSM/TDMA and CDMA, CDMA is still the superior technology in the same way that BetaMax and PowerPCs are the better technology. And despite the lower sales.

Re:Verizon?

[UranusReallyHertz]

I live in Wisconsin and U.S Cellular is the best provider here and they converted there entire network to CDMA so I have warm fuzzy feelings. It really amazing to be in the middle of a rural farm field and get an excellent signal.

Re:Verizon?

[IgnoramusMaximus]

CDMA is a superior technology over GSM and TDMA.

Err, perheaps in some ivory-tower, elitist, theoretical manner. In practice CDMA phones lack flexibility and features.

Such as a SIM card that stores your phonebook and other info, which can be moved from phone to phone so you dont need some assholes determining what you can use. Between a phone and a CF-card modem? GPRS? Etc. Etc.

Less "performance"? Who gives a fuck about performance which you cant use?

CDMA is a standard designed for the carriers and against consumers. It is meant to be restrictive and demanding multiple accounts for multiple devices while dangling a carrot of some supposedly superior qualities which you and I will never get to see on our crippled-to-oblivion, pay-per-even-thinking-about-it handsets.

There is a reason Betamax lost. Sony, just like CDMA carriers, were arrogant, self-absorbed, greedy assholes who believed they will get the entire planet by the balls. The result? Planet: 1, Sony: 0.

The same will happen (as is already happening) to CDMA.

Re:Verizon?

[IgnoramusMaximus]

CDMA so I have warm fuzzy feelings. It really amazing to be in the middle of a rural farm field and get an excellent signal.

You are being bamboozled. The CDMA network is only capable of doing this because the equipment is newer and the transmitters more powerful. The GSM system would be capable of the same should they choose to upgrade it. GSM while theoretically inferior on some technical sides, has a far superior consumer strength to it, with far more handsets and total freedom of changing your devices as your account (and your phonebook) moves with the SIM card and not a secret-mojo-serial-number phone, which results in you having to get 3 accounts for your phone, pda and laptop. And forget about things like bluetooth unless you a proud owner of one of the 2 bluetooth enabled CDMA phones on the planet.

Oh and on signal qualtity, in my city there are both CDMA and GSM networks and I tried them both (for years at a time). Within the city boundaries was no difference, with exception of some areas where CDMA was stronger and others where GSM ruled. I dont travel in rural areas but the coverage is a direct function of investment in equipment not some magical "standard" quality.

Re:Verizon?

[XO]

I would just like to point out that the existing GSM networks with AT&T and Cingular (i'm not sure about "T-Horrible" as someone as earlier in the thread called them, as I'd never touch them with someone else's phone) are transmitting GSM over TDMA as a carrier protocol. Now, we all know that TDMA sucks ass.

Cingular has contracted Nortel to build an entire network for them that consists of transmitting GSM over CDMA as a carrier protocol, because flat out CDMA is a billion times better than using TDMA or AMPS or the European GSM transport protocol.

Re:Verizon?

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Now, we all know that TDMA sucks ass.... GSM over CDMA as a carrier protocol..

You know, I dont care what they do internally, what I do care about is that phones called "GSM" and providers calling themselves "GSM" are providing me with far more choices and far greater flexibility then those calling themselves "CDMA". If they choose to use pigeons for network synchronization, my hat off to them, as long as my communications quality does not suffer.

Re:Verizon?

[XO]

Well, if you prefer communications quality as the most important qualification, then you should be on a CDMA network. Unless you have the voice of a mid-20's white male with a mid-western accent, the voice compression used on the GSM network will totally destroy your sound. And for everyone you talk to.

Re:Verizon?

[IgnoramusMaximus]

the voice compression used on the GSM network will totally destroy your sound.

I had many phones over the years on both networks and many friends who were on both of these systems. Honestly they all vary wildly depending on area, phone model, where the person is etc etc. I did not however have difficulty conducting a conversation under most circumstances where ambient sound wasnt a major problem, and that is really the only criteria applicable to a phone as far as voice communication is concerned. This is not an area for audiophiles. Old poorly-amplified, analog, landline phones used to have 6kHz top frequency and people used them for many decades and contrary to what many techno-maniacs would like you to believe, the civilization as we know it did not come to a grinding halt because of it.

Secure

[leonmergen]

Well, let's hope all this leads to more secure phones in the future... isn't that what's hacking all about ? Detecting flaws without abusing them, so companies can improve their product ?

Re:Secure

[Paleomacus]

I don't think that is the point of this at all. I think this is hacking to get what people paid for and expect from a Bluetooth enabled phone. A quick look at the technical info that nuclearelephant has on their site gives me the impression that this could be a hell of a fun project.

Bad thing is the pot won't even cover the cost of the phone at this point.

kai2 dung6 bei6 yung6 hai6 tung2

[Anonymous Coward]

From B64 to you. To decode: base64 -d in.txt out.ogg
Get base64 for Windows and Unix here: http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/base64/

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aC5Pc mc gbG liVm9 yY mlzIEk gMjA wMjA 3MTc AAAAAA QV 2b3 JiaXMmQ kNWAQ AIAACA Ikwg w4 DQ kFUA
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Verizon known for crippling phones

[__aaitqo8496]

Verizon is known for doing this type of things with thier phones. Entire communities have been created to discuss the problems and find workarounds. Just taking a look around at Howard forums and you can come up with tools such as the balpatch which was created in an attempt to take control of the Motorola T720 for loading of pics and tones. Despite a user outcry and many letters written to them in complaint of abandoning JAVA in favor of BREW (a proprietary Qualcomm language), Verizon cares not.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[coolgeek]

Verizon is very happy to accept an ESN from you and connect it to your existing plan/phone number. So, anyone is free to go buy a stock unmodified phone from a third party, that meets the signalling requirements, connect it to Verizon, and use all the features of the underlying product.

It seems to me, if they are willing to front a $300-500 device and sell it to you for a penny, you kind of have to accept what they are offering. That a vendor would customize the software on their phone in an attempt to recover the loss, well, that's called "Capitalism".

Caveat Emptor/You get what you pay for.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[ElGuapoGolf]

FYI -- verizon no longer accepts phones with non-Verizon ESNs. Meaning... if you want to use it on the Verizon network, you have to buy it from Verizon.

FYI2 -- The phone in question sells for around $250-350. That ain't a penny.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[Anonymous Coward]

The phone in question sells for around $250-350.

Uh, no, it costs $519. Which actually backs up your point and makes them look even worse.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[spectral]

They don't activate phones that aren't theirs anymore, and I don't know that they ever did. I tried several times, and they refused to do it. They wouldn't even consider it, it wasn't that they said that the phone was incompatible.. just that it couldn't be done.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[jonsmirl]

I have to agree that Verizon is making the phones useless. Next phone I get is going to be voice only. I wasted a bunch of money buying a couple of Motorola 722's to then find out that I had to pay more to use every feature.

I wanted to sync my calendar/address book with Yahoo. I called Verizon, no program exists for syncing Yahoo to a Motorola 722. So I said fine I'll write one and open source it. When I mentioned this on the Qualcomm forms I almost got lynched. People complained about commies like me ruining their ability to make money and support their families. I said that I was willing to buy the program but none exists -- no one offered to write it.

Qualcom is completely against free distibution of apps for Brew. They told me that I could write it and distribute for free on the Verizon net if I was willing to pay the fees for all of the users. I also had to pay a $4000 up front fee. Turns out that they require additional app royalty fees to use the OS I just bought from them.

The offical reason for this "fee" is that Qualcomm will audit my apps to ensure that they don't contain a virus that would call 911. I tried to point out to them that a virus on home computers with modems is just as dangerous, but they wouldn't listen.

None of this is Motorola's fault. It is all Qualcomm and Verizon.

When my contract is up I'm getting a new network and Linux based phones.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[XO]

That ended either a month or two ago. Verizon now has a list of ESN's that they will accept.

The good side of it is, is that they will never accept a phone that is a piece of shit and makes their network look bad.

The bad side, of course is, that you have to use phones that you may not necessarily like.

*shrug* I prefer Verizon. If I ever pay off my debt to them, I'll get a phone with them again, and keep my Sprint phone so that I can play with third party apps.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[Thomas Shaddack]

The bad side, of course is, that you have to use phones that you may not necessarily like.

Hack the phone, fake the ESN. It's technically illegal, but if you won't cause any harm, it's unlikely anybody will find about it.

Re:Verizon known for crippling phones

[coolgeek]

Wow that sucks. I previously used several non-Verizon phones on their network before I switched to Sprint last year to get a Treo. Guess I won't be going back...Verizon has a superior network but Sprint actually works good enough for me.

Bet the pot goes to some Verizon tech

[Myrrh]

What do you want to bet the tech(s) who originally figured out how to cripple the phone hear about this, un-cripple it (or at least tell how), and collect the bounty?

I'd do it if it were me. Hopefully the pot grows enough to offset the lost income if Verizon finds out and fires the guilty party, though.

Re:Bet the pot goes to some Verizon tech

[x0n]

After reading the article (!), I got the distinct impression that Verizon required custom crippled firmware from Motorola themselves in order the secure their order.

- Ois

Re:Bet the pot goes to some Verizon tech

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet it goes to somebody like "me" who works for Motorola and knows the in's and out of the phones.

What!?

[Anonymous Coward]

They win pot? Where do I enter?!

Re:What!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah... why waste your time? You can get a gram of pot on Commercial Drive in Vancouver BC for $10 (CDN). That's what... around $8 US. And it's sold over the counter in a store. The police don't care either.

Re:What!?

[ThatsNotFunny]

With pot, everybody wins! ;)

Pardon my ignorance, but..

[jonesboy_damnit]

..is the DMCA basically legislation saying "the US government will kill you and your children if you should choose to attempt to learn more about the consumer electronics for which you have paid so much of your hard-earned money"? I remember a little while back they detained that Russian programmer under the DMCA. It sounds scary.
Somebody call my mommy! :(
-Matt

Re:Pardon my ignorance, but..

[Anonymous Coward]

"Somebody call my mommy! :("
i would but I still owe her $5.

Free Publicity

[UncleBiggims]

Could it be that the decision to cripple bluetooth was deliberate? Other companies should take note. Instead of spending money and resources on functionality, just get someone to sponsor a hack-fest. Just think of the free publicity and functionality that will ensue. Think of the increase in sales as all those code slingers seek fame and fortune. Just think of the prestige your customers will feel when they can say, "Yeah, I have the v710, but mine has been hacked."

Re:Free Publicity

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because everyone is talking about it. I saw it on CNN last night.

Oh wait, that's right, I didn't! No one, outside of geeks, is talking about it. The average consumer has no clue and doesn't care.

Re:Free Publicity

[gl4ss]

umm.. ***Could it be that the decision to cripple bluetooth was deliberate? ***

of course it was deliberate, it was a decision they made and then proceeded to execute it. you don't make that sort of functionality changes by pure accidence.

but were they doing it because of free publicity? hell no.

Re:Free Publicity

[Myuu]

More than likely Verizon was afraid allowing customers to more easily use the phone as a modem would cut into any type of PCMCIA modem sales/service so they pulled it out.

Just sit tight.

[peterdaly]

There is a bluetooth update coming something soon (schedule is/was early this month) for the v710. At least one person has claimed to have received word via email from verizon that at least some of the functionality this "hack contest" is looking for will be provided in the update.

Sit tight until the update comes out...then assess the situation. Then, if needed, we can work ourselves up into a hissy about this.

I think Verizon released this phone before it was ready, probably due to customers leaving for lack of a bluetooth option. They probably figured the backlash may be better than lost customers, or I could be wrong and they may just be totally missing the boat.

Re:Just sit tight.

[garbletext]

RTFA. According to Verizon's Corporate Handset Marketing person:

Q. Do you foresee that OBEX/OPP will be enabled anytime in the near future?
A. No.

They did not "release it before it was ready," they delibarately crippled features that are available, in order to increase their profits by selling you things that you now "need."

Re:Just sit tight.

[sprior]

Maybe they found out about the hack bounty and wanted to collect the revenue.

Re:Just sit tight.

[bergerjs]

I don't have enough fingers to count the times Verizon has told me lies just to go away.
If Verizon/Mot comes out with the update to fix all the problems, the money donated to this pot gets refunded.

DMCA

[thebdj]

The problem with worrying about the DMCA is that it is not Verizon who can call for it. You see the hardware is create and owned by Motorola. So if anyone would complain it would be them. To be honest if I was Motorola I would be just as pissed at Verizon for castrating my product.
I suppose Motorola could go after the people, but really do they have anything to lose by people figuring out how to turn a feature on that was originally in the phone to begin with?

Re:DMCA

[Kpt Kill]

Yeah, but doesnt verizon own the firmware that is used on the phone?

Re:DMCA

[mrm677]

No. Verizon does not own or develop any firmware.

All Motorola phones have flexcodes to customize the phone for certain vendors. Trust me, Motorola is not pissed at Verizon because Motorola cooperated in configuring the product, for Verizon, at the time of manufacture.

Que?

[iamdrscience]

Am I missing something? Why not just switch to a different network that isn't so hostile towards their customers. I mean, the fact that Verizon is actually saying that they don't offer a bluetooth phone because it doesn't fit their business model, despite the fact that many customers want it is ridiculous. Sounds like a path towards an out-of-business model to me.

Re:Que?

[Myrrh]

Oh, I agree, wholeheartedly. That's what a free market economy is about.

But out here in the sticks, we pretty much only get service from Verizon, since they're the only ones with a tower.

Verizon or nothing ... hmm. If it weren't for my wife's insistence on having a cell phone, I'd choose the latter and put that $45/month into wireless internet.

Re:Que?

[Rew190]

Verizon has the best coverage. It's very, very rare that I can't use my phone. That's quite valuable.

Re:Que?

[Andy Dodd]

Simple. Every other carrier's coverage sucks.

Verizon has the best coverage, some of the best customer service (The ONLY time I've had any problems with their customer service was when 90% of their employees were on strike.), and the best quality control on their phones. (Which is why their selection of phones sometimes suffers.)

Don't like the v710? Go buy another phone. The article linked to is wrong - There are plenty of situations where people have activated Sprint phones on Verizon with no troubles (other than having to unlock the Sprint phone's programming mode. Sprint are bastards like that, whereas the access password for every Verizon phone I've owned has been 00000.)

I have a Kyocera 6035 Smartphone, with LOTS of features that are "direct competitors" to the ones Verizon wants to push. None of them have been crippled in any way. Same for the 7135.

Re:Que?

[chgros]

Why not just switch to a different network that isn't so hostile towards their customers.
A wireless network that's not hostile to its customers? Good luck finding that!

Re:Que?

[KjetilK]

Hm, if you have a good phone company, do you actually need customer service....?

Re:Que?

[Andy Dodd]

Back before nationwide roaming plans existed, there was this thing called a "service transfer".

And even in the age of nationwide roaming, sometimes it helps to have a local phone number.

In 4-5 years of being a Verizon (or one of their predecessors, in my case Frontier Cellular -> Bell Atlantic Mobile -> Verizon) customer, I have only needed to place a customer service call to them for reasons other than service transfers or number changes once. And that one time they fixed my problem within 2-3 minutes. It's one of the rare cases where the situation for a company's customer IMPROVES after the company gets bought out/merges. :)

On a different but related note - I believe the reason Nokia introduced no new phones for Verizon between one of the 5100 series and a phone introduced recently (3-4 year gap) was because they couldn't get any more phones past Verizon QC and simply gave up - Nokia just didn't have enough CDMA experience, which became apparent yet again with all of the handset problems UMTS has been plagued with.

As a Verizon and Mac customer

[Fudge.Org]

I find that

a) it would be better to go with Nextel for a wireless data service.

b) it would be better to go with AT&T/Cingular for a Bluetooth feature enabled phone selection.

Verizon gets Moto to give them phones but there is no guarantee who is responsible for the software running on the phone. I get the full impact of this approach when I use my phone today. When I can actually -use- the phone that is.

Sadly, the current phone I use (Moto T720C) just reboots and has general software issues because I actually try to use the features of the phone. It all started when I did my first iSync. After that, it is very common to just have the phone reboot after reading a text message and the battery life is horrible. That said, if I just used the unit as a phone it is reliable.

Verizon has swapped out hardware numerous times since it was considered to be a case of bad hardware. Right. Sure. Then when the 5p software load is on the new hardware it still chokes the phone. I would say it is just silly but I actually use my phone for work.

Finally, I got a rep to admit that Verizon let Moto outsource the software for the T720c and if you try to get one now most reps won't even let you get the T720c if you beg for it. Too many problems.

I was looking at going to the V710 but now I am leaning towards other options like the LG phones since the Bluetooth on the V710 is not fully baked and may never be.

I guess Verizon is the choice if -all- you want to do is make phone calls.

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[FuzzzyLogik]

I have a LG VX6000 .. while it lacks bluetooth (wish it did have it honestly) it's a great phone. Pretty small and i had one bad unit which was replaced when i went to a verizon store. I think the phone was $80 after rebate when i got it about 3 1/2 months ago

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[Fudge.Org]

That's good to know! That's the exact model I had my eyes on actually. :)

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[FuzzzyLogik]

i don't use the camera much so i can't really comment on that.. almost wish i had gotten a phone without the camera like the VX4600 but oh well

You can send pictures to the phone to use as backgrounds (i currently use a picture of my girlfriend as the wallpaper on it). Nice little feature but you have to edit the pictures to a certain size. Also lets you do picture caller id, not much use when the phone is closed anyway :-/

You can also send midi files to the phone and set them as ringtones.. you can also set a specific ringtone per contact that calls you.

maybe these are insignificant features to most but coming from a nextel i90 i find it's got some neat features that i wish i could've done with that bulky ass i90. this thing is nearly half the thickness ..

battery life is nice too, i get about 5 days of normal usage (maybe 20 minutes or so a day of usage for me) and a bunch of txt msgs... i also talked on the bugger for about 3 hours one night with the girlfriend before i had to plug it in to charge thought that was rather nice

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[Anonymous Coward]

I was looking at going to the V710 but now I am leaning towards other options like the LG phones since the Bluetooth on the V710 is not fully baked and may never be.

I recommend the LG phones. I've got the just-a-phone VX3200, but they also have more featureful versions if that's what you're looking for. LG has the best UI available; that's why I picked them.

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[Fudge.Org]

Ahh... but does the LG have the option of letting you open the phone and -not- have it answer the call?

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[XO]

Why on EARTH would you want Nextel for wireless data? Their phones BARELY have any kind of data support whatsoever, and their network is limited to 9600bps!

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[FuzzzyLogik]

Yes, it does have this option and i have it turned on so it doesn't auto answer on phone open. so technically you COULD use the photo caller id thing, but i don't because i usually just look at the front LCD and that's sufficient for me.

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[Fudge.Org]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am in RTP, NC. We are the trial area for Nextel high speed wireless. It's faster than cable modem speeds.

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[Fudge.Org]

http://nextelbroadband.com/

Re:As a Verizon and Mac customer

[Anonymous Coward]

Hah.. another tax on the stupid!

Really, if you want the best data plan out there right now then it's T-Mobile's unlimited data plan for just shy of $20/mo.

Bluetooth

[FuzzzyLogik]

I remember hearing people say bluetooth was dead and it was a giant failure. funny how now bluetooth is something everyone wants :) I wish my verizon phone had bluetooth, I'd love to get a jabra bluetooth headset sure would make talking on the phone easier during my commute to school and such. Ah well, maybe one day a service provider (that isn't crap) would handle a good fully featured bluetooth handset

Re:Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Ericsson, the original inventor of Bluetooth, bowed out last week - so, yeah, it is pretty much dead in the water.

Re:Bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Bluetooth is dead. It's not only a pain in the ass to use, but it's going to be outstripped in speed. Networks like EV-DO, coming on line this year, have higher data rates than Bluetooth (2+Mbs bursts, compared to 700 kbs for Bluetooth). Using it for data becomes pointless -- like using a serial cable to connect to the T1 in your house.

Re:Bluetooth

[ElGuapoGolf]

Ericsson, the original inventor of Bluetooth, bowed out last week - so, yeah, it is pretty much dead in the water.

Go away troll. Ericsson bowed out, Sony Ericsson (ya know, the guys who make the phones that actually use bluetooth) didn't.

Correction...

[keiferb]

The first hacker to provide a hack (or instructions) to enable OBEX and OPP features on the handset before Jan 1 wins the pot.

Correction. The first hacker's lawyers win the pot defending the first hacker in his DMCA suit.

Re:Correction...

[CrackedButter]

Assuming this hack IS done in the states of course... the DMCA only applies to the little planet called USA.

Re:Correction...

[Anonymous Coward]

The first hacker to provide a hack (or instructions) to enable OBEX and OPP features on the handset before Jan 1 wins the pot.

Correction. The first hacker's lawyers win the pot defending the first hacker in his DMCA suit.

What if the hacker lives in a country that doesn't care about USA's laws or the DMCA?

Re:Correction...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why do they care about hacking a phone for a US carrier?

I'd been waiting for this phone.

[TellarHK]

For the last -year- I had been waiting for a chance to get a Bluetooth phone with my Verizon account. Fortunately, the same week I see that it's been released, I see posts about Verizon having totally screwed it up so I can avoid spending any cash on it.

I can understand them wanting to make more money with more feature offerings, but it's unexcusable that they don't explain things more clearly when you're shopping for a phone. The only question now, is who to switch to? My plan is up in December.

I tried to make sense of the price structures involved in AT&T Wireless' plans, as they do definitely have the best options in phones. I can't even find out anything remotely clear from the site, though. Do they charge different rates for data? Per K? Ugh.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

unlimited for 79.99

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[garbletext]

T-mobile offers unlimited data for 4.95, it's ok for email, but it's slow as balls browsing the web. Their customer service is also among the best i've dealt with. If you get good reception in your area, I highly reccomend them.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[IronTek]

I'll second the vote fore T-Mobile.

I've previously had AT&T TDMA service and Cingular TDMA and switched to T-Mobile (GSM) a year ago.

They have been, by far, the best cellular company I've dealt with. Their customer service is great, as is their reception, pricing, phone choice (The T610 has excellent Bluetooth support).

I just finished with my contract with them, but I really have no intention on switching.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Carefull when dealing with AT&T. I just recently got screwed by them! There website was reporting the wrong minute use for over three months. Every time I called them to ask about it they would tell me that I had plenty of time left. Now I am stuck canceling my service and attempting to switch. Come to find out that AT&T phones are crippled so that they will ONLY use AT&T.. I can use me NEC525 with any other service. On top of that, AT&T's automatic payment system has every payment that I made in the last year listed as "late" so my credit is fubar.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Delita]

I too will voice out my opinions against AT&T and in favor of T-mobile. T-mobile really does have fantastic customer service. AT&T was so bad for me I just decided to break contract with them and pay the 250$ fee. Service problems, reception problems, customer service problems, billing problems; you name it, they screwed it up. With T-mobile it's nice to know I'll still be on my phone company's network when I go to the EU, and if I come across any problems they will be just as helpful as they are here...

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[ZackSchil]

AT&T/Cingular are the same company so you get to use both networks and have free roaming on T-Mobile. I even managed to send a picture message with no extra charge from Canada so go figure. In general, internet access from them is a penny per KB on the most basic plan and REALLY racks up is you use your phone to get on the internet. My powerbook lets me connect to a dialup ISP using my phone's voice mode so I use that even though it's a lot slower and requires a steady 75% or more of service. I get free nights and weekends and a reasonable amount of minutes for peak hour use (I forget how many but I've never run out.)

Overall, they're a pretty good wireless provider. So far no troubles.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Another vote for T-Mobile here. Best cell company I've dealt with.

I spent years trying to convince my last provider (Pacbell/Cingular) to offer data plans, but they never did. I even wasted my time writing them a snail mail. When T-Mobile showed up here, they had data plans right away. And when they started offering an unlimited GPRS data plan, I switched to them in a heartbeat.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T/Cingular are the same company so you get to use both networks and have free roaming on T-Mobile.

Uhhh.. No, they're not. That merger has not gone through yet and probably won't for months to come. Your unlimited mobile to mobile and (I believe) offpeak minutes aren't available if you're on a Cingular or T-Mobile tower.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Kiryat Malachi]

Cingular offers an unlimited GPRS, 1500 SMS, and 250 MMS plan for $20 a month now. Just thought you'd like to know.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[ZackSchil]

While the merger may be progressing slowly on the legal side, the technology is already linked. On my phone bill they show up as the same service and also allow picture messaging with no price penalty. As far as I'm concerned, if their network are interchangeable, they're the same company. Well, the same wireless provider at least.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone doesn't know how to read fine print.

It states on the view minutes click-through agreement that "IT IS ONLY AN ESTIMATE"

Mobile to mobile and voicemail calls throw it off slightly.

As for your other complaint. You must pay your bill before 8pm on the last day of the bill cycle or it's late. No excuses.

Lesson you should learn: READ

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

250$ ... The ETF is 175. You want good service? Get an employee sponsorship, that way you speak to the premium care department... Still won't help you if you claim ignorance.

Re:I'd been waiting for this phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not yet they aren't.

They are still required to operate as competitors till federal regulatory approval is done.

The GSM America plan on ATTWS lets you use any GSM provider in the USA with no roaming or long distance and is the best plan scheme there is. The same applies to GPRS/EDGE roaming. No roaming charges.

All ATTWS sites are EDGE enabled.

not confined to Verizon and Motorola

[dash2]

I have a Nokia 7250i. A very nice phone, which lets you take colour photographs, with an infrared port. I can upload my contacts to my PC via the infrared port - works out of the box, modulo a bit of man page reading, under Debian. Can I upload my photos? Can I fuck. Can I send my photos to my computer via email, at 20p a throw? Why yes, I can.

I wish someone who knew about these things could write an OBEX thingy to upload them. I know it is possible in theory - there is a closed source windows app that does it.

Dave

Re:not confined to Verizon and Motorola

[CrackedButter]

tough break but this is a reason why convergence products don't work, what is your phone, a phone or a camera? Thats why I have a phone that just does calls and a camera which far exceeds the capabilities of a phone and can interact with a PC with no trouble.

Verizon a monopolist? Say it ain't so.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you're new to the party. Verizon is the amalgam of Bell Atlantic and NYNEX (two of the most monopolistic RBOCS after the breakup of Ma Bell).

Perhaps you've never purchased a digital circuit from them or a POTS line. If you think their wireless service treads all over consumers, you can see where they got their "business model" from. Prices are high...some of highest in the industry, customer service is poor (hold times are legendary unless you're trying to buy something...then hold times are miniscule), and feature sets lag the industry. In short, it's exactly what you'd expect in a monopolistic environment.

The ONLY thing Verizon has going for it is their cell network. Coverage is pretty good. But then again, when you're soaking your clients like Verizon does, you can afford to build out your infrastructure.

I avoid Verizon just on general principle. Each time I've given them another chance (wireless, T1, OC3, pots, datacenter services) they've ultimately suckered me in and then made a grab for the short hairs once they thought I couldn't leave. I will never buy ANY services from them again. Run away!

DMCA-Unique.

[Anonymous Coward]

" To be honest if I was Motorola I would be just as pissed at Verizon for castrating my product."

Doubtful. Motorola gets it's money, castrated product or not. Also companies making customizable products isn't anything new. Do you think Microsoft is pissed that customers like AOL can customize it's browser?

You would be arrested

[Anonymous Coward]

Carrying all that pot!

I'm missing something.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's examine the situation.

- there's a hostile cell phone company
- you continue to use them
- you complain when they suck
- you stick with them, despite their ignorance, but you then post "rewards" to fix their problems

Umm. Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to just switch cellular carriers? (Changing cell phone companies is not that hard to do!)

Re:I'm missing something.

[bblazer]

Yea, I would love to change companies, but I am in the middle of my contract, and the exit fees are pretty high. then I would have to go to another company and buy new phones from them (another expense). instead I have decided to wait with v710 in hand until i get some fixes for it, or my contract is over - whichever comes first. BTW - I just contributed to the reward. Let freedom ring on my v710!!! Brian

Re:I'm missing something.

[bergerjs]

Its called a contract. When a cell company that you've never had major problems with before lies to get you on a new phone with a new 2 year contract, there's not much you can do.

Re:I'm missing something.

[ElGuapoGolf]

There are ways out of the Verizon contract, without having to pay any exit fees! See my earlier post here.

http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1 20 377&cid=10142522

Re:I'm missing something.

[ElGuapoGolf]

Its called a contract. When a cell company that you've never had major problems with before lies to get you on a new phone with a new 2 year contract, there's not much you can do.

Sure there is... you can get out of your contract early. See this post:

http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1 20 377&cid=10142522

Que?-Customers always right.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sounds like a path towards an out-of-business model to me."

Not really. You're assuming that it's an unsound business judgement not to give customers what they want. And going with that. You assume that the customers always right, and has the knowledge of the whole business process to back it up with.

There could be physical reasons, economic reasons, legal reasons. Reasons that the customer isn't privy too.

Re:Que?-Customers always right.

[j3110]

Good, good... I like your logic. What you're trying to say is that even though company X offers what the people want for about the same prices, people will stick with Verizon who tells customers what they want. Last time I checked, consumers drove the market, not the other way around. All the other reasons you mention are fine if no one else is offering the service that the customer wants, but that clearly isn't the case, now is it?

One free gmail invite

[Anonymous Coward]

• http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-adb154a159-aebe0f3 da3-3266f0d2f1
  

Is This a Problem?

[severoon]

I can see how this upsets people, and I think the best approach is to just advertise it and try to punish Verizon that way. Organize a kind of tech-geek boycott. But unfortunately, I don't think there's a legal problem with what they're doing.

Should companies be allowed to sell their products hobbled? If we decide no for Verizon, then we also must go after Microsoft, whose baseline operating system is always the more advanced flavor. For instance, in Win 2000 Pro, many of the features of Server are present but disabled. Should we apply the same standard here and say that Pro must have all such features enabled? I'm not sure...

As far as applying the DMCA to this situation of this contest...I don't see how any law can stop it. It can just force it underground, or force the perpetrators to come up with a flimsy cover story.

Re:Is This a Problem?

[FuzzzyLogik]

the problem with this approach is that while microsoft has the features disabled you can still get those features by paying more for the server edition. verizon doesn't let you have the features unless you goto another carrier.

Re:Is This a Problem?

[trans_err]

Verizon has no obligation to sell a cell phone with fully enabled bluetooth. They are a member of our free market economy and the products they sell should be up to their digression. Now, whether or not you buy that phone is YOUR choice.

Re:Is This a Problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Should companies be allowed to sell their products hobbled?

Only if they advertise it accurately.

Re:Is This a Problem?

[Igmuth]

The difference I see here, is that Microsoft, is not using the Server feature set as a selling point. Verizon, on the other hand, is implying that their phone DOES have certain features, because the same phone bought elsewheres does. In fact, even the manual claims the phone has these features (well I'm not sure about this exact case, but I know it is true in other cases)

Re:Is This a Problem?

[severoon]

I don't think Verizon is the one advertising these phone capabilities--it's Motorola making those claims, and that's the problem. I agree with you...as long as this is vocally pointed out on sites like this one, Verizon will hopefully take a hit. The bigger the hit, the better.

Re:Is This a Problem?

[Igmuth]

Motorola may be making the claims about said product, but Verizon, by the act of claiming to sell a Motorola product, is using those claims to sell the phone.

However, when the product is lacking in the features that it was advertised with, that sounds like bait and switch to me.

Top Tip:

[Anonymous Coward]

If some "Operator" [http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/operator/op_dire ctory.html] were to post the Operator Gudelines [https://brewx.qualcomm.com/brew/sdk/authdownload. jsp?page=dx/operatorguidelines], then there'd be a lot more items to discuss.

Re:Top Tip:

[I confirm I'm not a]

If some "Operator" [http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew/en/operator/op_dire ctory.html] were to post the Operator Gudelines [https://brewx.qualcomm.com/brew/sdk/authdownload. jsp?page=dx/operatorguidelines], then there'd be a lot more items to discuss.

Top tip: if some operator posted a valid username and password, then we'd have a lot more to discuss:

Access to page has not been authorized.
This server could not verify that you are authorized to access the document requested. Either you supplied the wrong credentials (ex: bad password) or your browser doesn't understand how to supply the credentials required.
(web error 401)

Re:Top Tip:

[Zorilla]

At least this guy knows the difference between brackets and < > as well.

Thanks for the invites slashdotter garcia!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-4db123a158-ceb88f9 da7-a2678095f6
http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-3da154a133-1ede8f4 da8-12661092f3

Re:Verizon a monopolist? Say it ain't so.....

[w9ofa]

Dude, Verizon is a merger of Bell Atlantic and GTE.

Does the prize include-penny for your phone.

[Anonymous Coward]

"First they shoot themselves in the foot by selling phones for a penny that costs them several hundred dollars. "

Hmmm...let's see.

Penny, cellular pays for phone-large bills I payed for a phone=???

Well I don't know about you, but someone's making a killing.

Re:Verizon a monopolist? Say it ain't so.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Verizon is the amalgam of Bell Atlantic and GTE, not NYNEX. Bell Atlantic absorbed NYNEX three years before the merger with GTE.

Re:Verizon a monopolist? Say it ain't so.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you keep giving them another chance ?

Thanks for the gmail invite erick99! Here's one:

[Anonymous Coward]

http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-6dc159f173-1fbe0f1 da2-f216809246

Take my money - please

[Brento]

The sad thing is that as a faithful Verizon customer for three years, I can't give them enough money to get me a phone with fully functional, non-crippled Bluetooth. I travel a lot, and along with several other geeks in the company, we pay Verizon for their great network as opposed to taking the company's free Sprint phones with horrendous coverage. I preach the gospel of Verizon's great signal strength whenever a friend is thinking about dumping one of the GSM carriers, but they always turn their nose up at the crummy phones Verizon carries.

I don't get it: Verizon has rabidly faithful customers already. They do a great job with the high-speed data service. Why don't they go the last mile and carry a decent Bluetooth phone? It's not like I'm asking for it for free - I'll *give* them the money, they just won't take it....

Re:Take my money - please

[ElGuapoGolf]

I don't get it: Verizon has rabidly faithful customers already. They do a great job with the high-speed data service. Why don't they go the last mile and carry a decent Bluetooth phone? It's not like I'm asking for it for free - I'll *give* them the money, they just won't take it....

It's all about the extras. If they gave you a fully functional Bluetooth phone, with a functional OBEX profile, you wouldn't have to use their Get-It-Now service to send yourself the pictures you've taken using the camera phone you bought from Verizon. Could you imagine, getting your photos off your phone(which you paid for) for free? It'd almost make that .3 megapixel picture somewhat compelling. And I know you can do it with the transwhatever card that's in the phone, but imagine how nice it would be to do it wirelessly...

But that's not all. If you had Java on the phone, instead of that redheaded stepchild BREW, you could use bluetooth to send yourself the games you've bought in the past for your older phones. And Verizon wouldn't make a penny! Could you imagine the horror of getting to use your old games and Verizon not making a penny out of that, other than the initial cost of selling you the game?

But wait, there's even more! If you had multiple cellular phones, you could take a ringtone from off your fiance's phone and send it to yours! For free! Verizon wouldn't make a penny, except for the money they made when they sold you the ringtone to begin with. The horror.

Re:Take my money - please

[smaug195]

If reception and features are a concern, and you are travelling in large metro areas. Get a V300 or V600, they have the new 850mhz band that gets you better reception in buildings then ANYONE else (Even in a basement in a building in SF where nobody got reception).

Re:Take my money - please

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd almost make that .3 megapixel picture somewhat compelling.

The v710 takes 1.2 megapixel images. However, the review I read says that the picture quality isn't good.

Re:Thanks for the gmail invite erick99! Here's one

[Anonymous Coward]

bah... you damn troll.

Why Verizon?

[tyrr]

Verizon is expensive, unfriendly and the phones they ancient.
710 looks OK, but personally I'd take Nokia 6230 any day.
GSM networks allow you to use state of the art phones of your choice and cost less.
For mere 80$ I get 1000 minutes, free nights-weekends, free in-network calling, free WAP, unlimited SMS, unlimited access to Wi-Fi in almost every Starbucks, Borders, Kinko's. Beat that!

Re:Why Verizon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Coverage everywhere in this state. That is what beats GSM... here, anyway. Given my druthers, i'd use a satphone.

Re:Why Verizon?

[tyrr]

"Coverage everywhere" is a bold statement and not what people are looking for.
"Good enough coverage" is what people need and GSM networks offer plenty of that.
Besides "good enough coverage" GSM networks offer outstanding global coverage, global messages, much better prices and better phones. If you take into account all of that you see the clear winner.
Until CDMA moves here in US to UMTS standard and dropes the price tag it is not going to be an option to any person who knows a little about mobile communication.
V710 is pretty advanced phone, so if you are thinking about V710 think if you are with a right provider.

Re:Why Verizon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good enough? Dropped calls are enough for me NOT use GSM service in this state, regardless of global coverage, regardless of global messages and the better prices and better phones...if it doesn't work in my operational area how again does GSM offer what people need? How can i see the clear winner with no signal to my handset?

Re:Why Verizon?

[tyrr]

You are obviously talking about not well-populated area. And you can thank your state officials who desided for you what wireless companies can offer service in your area by selling 850Mhz spectrum licenses to some-aquired-by-Verizon-company/ATT/Nextel. It simply does not make sense for companies like Cingular and T-Mobile to bring the service to you as the only licenses that they can use are in 1900Mhz and you need twice as many towers to cover the same area.
Here in Cali we are more them well-covered because even though the "good" part of the spectrum was sold to ATT/Nextel/Verizon the customer base was large enough for Cingular+T-Mobile to get together and build out a 1900Mhz network.

Buy something else

[OYAHHH]

Instead,

Of getting your panties all in a wad and wasteing a lot of time, just buy another phone/service/etc.

You wallet speaks a lot more loudly than your hacking skills.

Re:Buy something else

[l33t m4st3r]

there are usualy huge cansalation(sp) fees. that is the only reason people dont switch whenever they want.

Along the same lines

[fred911]

Sim/provider locked handsets. Buy a GSM phone from many carriers (from experience ATT), fulfill your obligation to the carrier and decide to change. Or, be on vacation and purchase a prepaid SIM. Install the new sim and suprize it no workie! The carrier had decided it was their, not your product.

There is now a fairly simple work arround to unlock many phones. It's still disengenious.

Re:Along the same lines

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Fred911, next time, how about proper grammer and English so the rest of us can decode what the FUCK you and your acid-friend brain were just babbling about.

Re:Along the same lines

[Kiryat Malachi]

Would this 'fairly simple workaround' be calling the carrier? Because that's the simplest workaround I know of.

Let me explain something to you. It's called "subsidy locking". You see, you are not paying the full price for your phone, usually. The carrier pays a portion of it. In return, you sign a contract. That's all well and good, but the carriers have (justifiably) decided to lock their phones so that even if you break contract, you still can't use that phone they helped pay for anywhere else unless you ask them first. If you've completed their requirements (I believe for T-Mobile its 90 days of service, AT&T 180, and I don't know for Cingular) then you can get it unlocked just by calling them.

It isn't disingenuous, unless you purchased one sans discount and it came locked. They should be better about explaining unlocking options, but there's nothing disingenous about them technologically enforcing the contract you signed with them.

Pot?

[Anonymous Coward]

I deal pot! You insensitive clod!

OPP!

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah you know me!

If someone is smart enough to hack the phone...

[Go_Ask_Alex]

...then they should be smart enough not to waste their time and effort buying a crippled Moto V710 in the first place, or otherwise contributing to having more people buy the phones and becoming satisfied customers via a hack.

Who would a hack serve? Those who will continue to support bad business practices and companies.

For a comparable price one can find comparable "unlocked" GSM phones that have the original manufacturer's firmware, have all features enabled, and allow one to get service from any mobile company one chooses, often world-wide with the now commonplace GSM world phones.

Re:If someone is smart enough to hack the phone...

[XO]

Sure, but GSM makes you sound like you're talking in a wind tunnel, on the voice end, the data end isn't nearly as fast as CDMA 1X, until the whole GSM system with Cingular is upgraded to GSM over CDMA, and the whole amount of coverage in the U.S. is a piece of shit. *shrug*

Re:If someone is smart enough to hack the phone...

[Go_Ask_Alex]

I've never tried Cingular here, only old TDMA AT&T, Sprint and Voicestream/T-Mobile. The service holes I experienced with Sprint sent me running to Voicestream (now T-Mobile) as soon as it was up, I've been a happy customer ever since and it works where I need it. Where it hasn't worked for me, neither has my friend's Sprint phone, or the Sprint phone would kick into analog roaming at insane rates.

T-Mobile EDGE is supposed to rollout nationwide by the end of the year at a speculated rate of $20/month for unlimited service (I think AT&T's EDGE is $70/month for unlimited).

T-Mobile was also recently and quietly offering combo GPRS/HotSpot plans for $19.99/month; code VTMIHSS for VPN/GRPRS/HS, code TMIHSS for GPRS/HS in case one can still convince a CSR to add it to an existing plan. ;-)

Re:If someone is smart enough to hack the phone...

[XO]

EDGE is already basically scrapped by Cingular, and moving onto the next technologies...

Not to be too harsh on you...

[PaulBu]

But maybe this story explains your .signature? ;-)

Paul B.

Re:Not to be too harsh on you...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, just like the other millions without jobs, it has been GWB's bad policies.

Re:Not to be too harsh on you...

[Anonymous Coward]

and nothing to do with an artificial bubble during Clinton and then it bursting.

Re:Not to be too harsh on you...

[Svartalf]

What most people don't seem to understand is that it's not the President that's the source of most of the woes we're seeing in this day and age.

The Administration is responsible for managing the obtaining of monies for the government in the form of taxes and tariffs. The Administration is responsible for signing off approved budgets and enacting the laws of the country. Congress is responsible for determining the allocations of actual spending for this country (Not the President...) and enacting various laws that may help or hinder the country.

Do not lay the blame solely on Clinton, Bush (Jr. or Sr.) or Reagan. It's as much CONGRESS' fault as it is theirs. It never ceases to amaze me that people keep buying into that false belief that it's the President's fault for all of the economic problems, etc.

Re:Not to be too harsh on you...

[wolrahnaes]

It never ceases to amaze me that people keep buying into that false belief that it's the President's fault for all of the economic problems, etc.

But...wait...the nice man on the TV said told me...

Seriously...TV/Radio and politics should be separated by law. there are too many details involved to be covered in a 30 second or 1 minute news story. Not that I'm saying other forms of media are any less biased one way or another, just printed/typed articles have the space to go in to far more detail than anything short of a full TV/Radio show devoted to a specific topic.

rant_mode 0

Re:Not to be too harsh on you...

[Monkelectric]

Actually, I don't blame clinton for a good economy, and I don't blame bush for the slowdown. However I *DO* blame bush for doing nothing about it, and using voodo supply side economics (reaganomics) to give tax cuts to exactly the people who don't need it.

Re:Not to be too harsh on you...

[Anonymous Coward]

The President has very limited ability to improve or damage the economy. The best thing he can do to improve things is to push for tax cuts.

Taxes act as brakes on the economy. Lowering taxes releases the brakes.

It's not just that simple -- there are other issues: the cost of regulatory compliance, the impact of overly-broad protections of "intellectual property", the use of tax laws to distort the free economy in various ways, etc. But taxes are high on the list.

The best way to create jobs is to fire up the economy, and the best way to do that is to create an environment where business actually makes money. Thus, tax cuts.

By the way, large companies can deal with baroque tax laws and other red tape better than small companies. The more you simplify things, the better for small companies. Piling new regulations on to companies (e.g. hiring quotas, health care, etc.) helps the big companies stay on top.

This ones easy.

[Electrawn]

[quote]
- there's a hostile cell phone company
- you continue to use them
- you complain when they suck
- you stick with them, despite their ignorance, but you then post "rewards" to fix their problems
[/quote]

The primary function of a cell phone is...a phone! Verizon's service works pretty much everywhere with signal penetration inside buildings that other carriers can not provide. Least dropped calls...etc. As a final note, they pick up the phone on one ring when you call customer service.

If you want a Cell Phone for Business, go with Verizon. If you want a Walkie Talkie, go with Nextel. Cingular has good rates for families.

As far as "Toy" phones: Sprint, then AT&T. Pray you don't have a billing error and don't have to get anyone on the phone. Lets not even mention T-Horrible.

It's much easier to pay someone to replace the radio in the Cadillac with a CD player then trading it in for a Yugo with a CD Player.

Former Cell Salesman.

-Electrawn

Re:This ones easy.

[XO]

Actually, Sprint's push-to-talk is probably far superior to Nextel's, as well. Just looking at the service map for Nextel (one color = nationwide PTT, one color = local only PTT, one color = voice only, one color = roaming, most of the country = not covered) and comparing to Sprint's (one color = everything on your phone works, one color = roam voice only, one color = no service) .. HUGE difference.

And on the plans in the price range that Nextel users usually use, the PTT function is included for free with Sprint.

Re:This ones easy.

[BRTB]

Actually, Sprint's PTT is awful. We had the opportunity to test it out when the Nextel contract came up for bid; local Sprint rep sent us a few LG phones with full service plans for a couple weeks.

It's obvious they just tacked it onto the existing phone-call infrastructure; you pick a phone number and hit the PTT button. After a delay of between 15 seconds and 2 minutes as it makes the phone call, you MIGHT get a connection and be able to transmit. Even when connected, there's a variable delay of 5-30 seconds before you hear what the other person said, and garbled/truncated more often than not. And this was testing NEW phones in an open-air OUTDOOR environment with supposedly full cell signal. Forget working indoors, it just failed miserably. Amazingly, both Sprint's tech support and the aforementioned marketing rep claimed this was normal behavior.

Needless to say we extended the Nextel contract, and bought a bunch of new Motorola i530's and i810's to replace our aging i1000's.

Re:This ones easy.

[XO]

CDMA Push-to-Talk is implemented through the 1X data service, it's like making a VoIP phone call.

You can also connect one-to-many, not just one-to-one.

Also, the only phones that do PTT for Sprint are made by Sanyo.

The phones themselves allow you to talk almost immediatly upon pressing the button, and will buffer it while it makes the VoIP connection to the other end. Once the connection is established, as long as it doesn't idle for more than (i think) 10 minutes, then you have a nearly instant downlink. Now, of course, you're used to Nextel which just plain transmits analog-data straight from you to the tower to the receiving phone, and there probably will always be a slight longer lag time, especially since Sprint's data network is not a flawless entity.

But, although I've only used the Sprint phones for very short periods of demonstration, I've had a ton of praise for them, and zero problem reports.

Real bounty

[Electrawn]

Agreed.

Lets start a real bounty to hack any of Sanyo's Sprint phones to work on Verizon's network. (If you ever had a Sanyo phone, you know what I'm talking about.)

-Electrawn

Re:Real bounty

[data1]

Whats so great about them?

Re:Real bounty

[XO]

Until last month, when Verizon implemented a serial number lock system, that makes it so that they will only activate phones that they have already pre-approved, all you had to do was give them the serial number, and reprogram the Sanyo phone. Of course, it usually took some nasty social engineering tricks to get the MSL so you could reprogram the phone, but that's not all that difficult really.

Anyway, it's not gonna happen anymore, unless you can find a way to change the ESN in the firmware of the Sanyo phone.

Verizon's Expensive

[Mean_Nishka]

Verizon is really all about nickel and diming the customer. Walk into any retail store and you can see many 'packages' to be added on to a normal account. They charge for everything beyond a typical phone call, even on the more premium accounts.

I used to be a Verizon customer and switched to Sprint when the Treo 600 came out. I was expecting a decline in service quality, and was quite surprised the actual service was about the same.

What I did get was far more bang for the buck. For around $110 US a month, I get 2000 peak minutes, unlimited nights and weekends which start at 7 p.m. (versus 9 for Verizon), unlimited picture and SMS messaging, unlimited data, including unlimited modem use (thanks PDANet!), and a host of other features.

Bottom line, I'm not sad I left Verizon.. At least with Sprint I know I won't be charged extra for something as simple as an SMS message or photo transmission.

Re:Verizon a monopolist? Say it ain't so.....

[Electrawn]

...and Verizon Wireless is 50% Verizon and 50% Vodafone (European cell carrier).

-Electrawn

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

BREW isn't a language, it's a runtime/API

[Anonymous Coward]

And Java sucks.

The idea of putting an intepreted language on an already slow processor is one of the dumbest in recent memory.

You generally write your BREW in C++.

Re:BREW isn't a language, it's a runtime/API

[LnxAddct]

Ugh... ACs are soo annoying. Java doesn't suck, your obviously not a programmer, or at least not a serious one. "Oh look I can write C++ and I know a scripting language, I'm 1337." Any serious programmer knows the value of Java and of all the other languages. Java is very good at at many things. Writing cell phone games in J2ME is extremely easy and extremely flexible. Java is a very powerful language and thats why so many support and use it. Things such as the IBM funded Eclipse IDE put everyother IDE to shame. Netbeans is also a first class IDE and I use it along with Eclpise very often. The Java VM is very fast now a days, mainly due to the JIT. It often runs as fast as C++, if not faster. This is also why most of the Apach Software Foundation's projects are focused on Java, these include Ant, Tomcat, Jakarta, Maven, Struts, and a few others. I can't stand people like you who claim, or act like, they are programmers, and in reality they can code a few "Hello World" apps. Get over yourself. I code mainly in C++, Java, and Python, but I know the value of all the other languages and where they fit and how to use them. Oh and Brew is far more susceptible to buffer overflows (hasn't there already been an issue or two with that?) where as Java is generally safe from many types of C++ targeted attacks.
Regards,
Steve

"the pot is steadily growing"

[baywulf]

So where exactly are they "growing" this POT?

-- ATF Agent

As a Nextel user...

[SaDan]

...I have to say that I would rather depend on ANY other wireless carrier OTHER than Nextel if I had a choice.

I carry a Nextel for work, and the service is horrible (Chicago metro area, mainly, but it's been bad EVERYWHERE I travel).

You're lucky if you can make a voice call, and you think they'd be better for data service than Verizon? HA!

I also have a Verizon account for my personal phone, and couldn't be happier with the coverage and service. I've had no billing errors since I opened my account in 1995.

I am, however, disappointed in Verizon's decision to remove some of the BT functionality of the V710 phone. I was looking to get that phone, and a newer PDA, and use the BT capabilities. I won't upgrade my phone unless it can do what I want between the phone and the PDA.

Re:As a Nextel user...

[Fudge.Org]

Ah, I should maybe be a little clearer. I am in NC. Specifically, I am in RTP where Nextel did their high speed wireless roll out. So, you can get faster speeds with their wireless card than cable modem... especially if you are in (apparently) the middle of the lake on a boat. :)

Re:As a Nextel user...

[Kiryat Malachi]

Nextel is particularly bad in Chicago metro - Detroit area its pretty good.

I've personally been pretty satisfied with Cingular.

Re:As a Nextel user...

[SaDan]

I was in Detroit last January, and while the service was good in the immediate area, once you left Detroit, the service didn't look so hot.

That's the nature of Nextel, I suppose. If you're in a major populated area, or on a major interstate, the service is pretty good. Hit the sticks, though, and forget it.

Re:As a Nextel user...

[Kiryat Malachi]

SE Michigan was generally pretty good for me on Nextel (had it there for about 6 months before I moved to Chicago).

But yeah, they were never good in the real sticks; okay in the burbs, though. Depends on where you are - Nextel's network, of all the cellcos I've used (which now includes everyone except T-Mo and Verizon) is by far the spottiest.

bogus argument

[bluGill]

Sim cards are nice, but there is NOTHING GSM specific about them. You can impliment something the is identical to GSM in all ways exepct it lacks a sim card and it will still work. Legally you can't call it GSM. (You might not be able to use it depending on patent laws)

Beyond that GSM version 3 is CDMA! Thats right, the next GSM standard is a form of CDMA. It has those GSM advantages like a sim card. CDMA is a better protocol than TDMA (GSM version 2 which is what most of the world uses is TDMA). No it doesn't have GPRS, it has something else with a different name that does the same thing.

GSM covers a lot more than the simple protocols. It would be nice if the CDMA providers got on board with sim cards. There are a lot of other implimentation problems with what everyone calls CDMA. However they are implimentation details, not technical.

Re:bogus argument

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Sim cards are nice, but there is NOTHING GSM specific about them.

While true, this is splitting hair. I, as consumer, do not care what goes on with the standard and who has what included in it or not, I merely observe that those who call themselves "GSM" and provide phones called by manufacturers "GSM" do offer features which are not available from those who call their stuff "CDMA". Furthermore I find the services of these same "CDMA" providers to be designed to disadvantage me as much as possible while maximizing control over my affairs by the said provider. In the long run that is all that counts.

Juris my diction

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

You butt out of my work.

--DEA Agent

Verizon sucks

[jonwil]

There are people out there who would like a phone with but verizon wont allow one on their network (even if you want to pay full price instead of getting it in a package)

Verizon is now on the list of "companies who think its better to screw the customer than it is to build up a good business"

OTOH, how many telcos ARENT on that list... :)

Re:Verizon a monopolist? Say it ain't so.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they have a virtual stranglehold on telecom/datacom services in my area? Even if you buy from another provider, they're just reselling Verizon circuits.

My v710

[Anonymous Coward]

I really appreciate the efforts of these people, because I own a v710 and I find myself putting in opcodes to fix issues, and keeping in mind what's wrong with it. Bluetooth is especially important since the handset at volume 15 is still too quiet, as I have difficulty hearing. I have to use a bluetooth headset to have a good conversation without yelling. All in all however, I bought the phone when it came out and I'm very pleased with it. I use all of the features pretty much, and it keeps up its end. Except for randomly rebooting when I try to turn on bluetooth in the middle of a conversation. >_ What I would love to see is a way to download applications to the phone without going through Verizon, so I could code my own. (e.g. AIM without their text messaging. I pay for 500 of them a month and usually come in just barely under that. I use it more than the minutes because minutes are too expensive.)

My rating? I'd still say a 6.5 out of 10.

If you want Verizon to change, don't buy Verizon

[AIXadmin]

I have spent 3500 bucks on services from Verizon over the last 2 years. They still would only give me the new Motorola v710 for 250 bucks with a new 2 year contract. Any other carrier would have given me a much better deal.

The only way we are going to get Verizon to change is to stop buying Verizon.

The reason I and other people have stuck with Verizon is that there network is the biggest and most complete BY FAR. Their customer service generally rocks too. Perhaps now with AT&T Wirless, and Cingluar combining they will be able to compete on these points.

I think i am going to give this phone to my wife and go sign up with Cingular. So I can stop giving Verizon my money.

Re:Thanks for the gmail invite erick99! Here's one

[Anonymous Coward]

clever, but note that it's a google cache.

hmm, it's goatse.

It really depends on what your needs are

[Anonymous Coward]

I think, for most people, the highest priority is still making calls, and making calls cheaply. In the US, we have the cheapest mobile phone deals in the world. Take a look at how much 400 minutes costs in the EU -- about $60-$80, compared to $40 here, with most providers giving unlimited mobile to mobile and weekends.

Verizon Wireless (by the way, not to be confused with Verizon Corporation -- Verizon Wireless is a joint venture of Verizon Corp. and Vodafone) finds the best way to make money here is to make people pay a couple bucks for a rinky-dink ringtone, or picture. In the end, hopefully that means we all get a much better voice network out of it while still retaining cheaper voice services. After all, this is a phone. It's terrible at taking pictures. It's terrible at IM. It's terrible at calendaring or anything else that laptops and PDAs are good at.

So I use my phone for voice, and whether I spend a few extra bucks a year on the occasional random picture message or ringtone means little to me compared to making an excellent call. If you want data, check out specific data devices like the Treo or Hiptop/Sidekick. Or, better yet, get a PCCard for your computer, it will give you better data performance anyway.

PS - the V710 has significant problems besides its crippled bluetooth. Totally not worth the money they're asking for it. Check out LG's or Samsung's offerings if you're on Verizon Wireless.

RTFA, clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to think the hacker contest is sponsored by either motorola or verizon. Next time think before you post, clueless.

don't blame Motorola

[MajestikMoose]

The author's problems with Verizon shouldn't be extended to complaining about Motorola. In case he's forgotten, they're in business to make money as well, which in this case means putting on Verizon's phones what Verizon wants. Locking and unlocking of features on a phone is in a software flex file that is specific to each carrier. Motorola's one customer? Um, no. You can get a Moto phone at Cingular, AT&T, T-Mobile and even Sprint now. Clearly the Bluetooth issue is no fault of Motorola's, as the BT technology on their GSM phones works just fine. And if you're talking about a monopoly, keep in mind that Nokia is still holding a larger market share than Motorola right now.

photo transmissions cost extra on Sprint too

[Anonymous Coward]

And as to 7pm off-peak, you had the wrong package if you had 9. I am on Sprint, and my off-peaks start at 9, simply because I have the wrong package.

Verizon may be expensive, but for the rest, you're way off base. The differences you speak of are just package to package veriance, not inherent to the two services. If you wanted not to pay per-SMS, all you had to do was talk to a rep and change your package.

As to the service, I used to have Verizon, now I have Sprint. The coverage is good, but not like Verizon's. I won't be going back to Verizon either, I need Bluetooth, it is the reason I went to Sprint (I have the awful T608, previously the only CDMA Bluetooth phone in the US.)

MOD PARENT UP! ;-)

[PaulBu]

If I deserved to get 3 Funny mods just for pointing out the inconsistency between the story about saying F.U. on a job interview and .sig blaming Bush or whoever is currently in power for one being jobless, the parent definitely deserves +5 Insightful (or, Informative, for some people here)

Paul B.

Re:MOD PARENT UP! ;-)

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah... he might have deserved a +5 Funny or a -1 Troll. Presidents have been taking on increasing roles in government, even to the extent of taking the lead on declaring wars instead of having Congress play that role.

back in the day

[Stu22]

I seem to remember an Apple CEO saying that the way to network Macs and PCs is with a floppy disk, much like the memory card for the phone. This was right before Apple almost went out of business. Verizon doesn't have a Jobs brand defribulator.

Stu

Not sure EV-DO replaces BT

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think EV-DO's purpose is as a method to
transfer data wirelessly to/from your computer or
other device. It's more of an alternative to UMTS, right?

Modular Phones running Linux?

[shapr]

When do we get real pluggable hardware so I can buy a nice tri-band send/receive unit that plugs into my laptop/palmtop/handset and lets me have coverage from multiple vendors if I feel like it?

Linux already supports OBEX and much more.

Just give me a 'cell-phone modem' so I can have actual control over the hardware I purchase.

Specifically, I have a 6310i with tri-band and bluetooth, but the crappy black on white display and flaky software makes it effectively a voice-only phone.
I wish I could swap out the display and run Linux on it so I could write my own apps that use the Linux IrDA code.